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RE: dual loop technique?



Cliff,

Fortunately, since i synchronize on a subdivision of the beat, i can write
down what i do in standard western musical notation. When i am done with my
latest piece, if you want, i will send you a NIFF file of the composition.
The LIME tool is a good viewer/editor/player for NIFF.

--greg

        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Clifford Novey [SMTP:clifsound@earthlink.net]
        Sent:   Friday, January 22, 1999 1:18 AM
        To:     Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
        Subject:        Re: dual loop technique?

        Sorry to quote such a lengthy post but I had to respond to the
following
        description.
        Greg, I like the sound of your idea- but it gets very cerebral to 
me
with it all
        in writing- how about an example made available on your website (if
you have
        one, if you are able)
        I just cant "think through it" without simply wanting to HEAR what
you are
        talking about-

        Only a suggestion...

        It makes me think of J. McLaughlin- the odd times and another
pattern merging
        with the first- (I love McLaughlin)

        Cliff

        Greg Meredith wrote:

        > Bob,
        >
        > i work with a single JamMan. However, when i do multiple loops, i
often do
        > it manually. That is, i do it using polyphonic instruments, e.g.
stick or
        > piano, and/or i employ multiple players. So, this may or may not
be on
        > target as the kind of technique in which you might be interested.
        >
        > However, what i do is to think very much about the 'phase'
structure of the
        > piece. i relate each loop to a common tick (finest audible
subdivision of
        > the beat). But, i try to emphasize a different pulse in each 
loop.
This
        > gives the soloist or improvisational voice the opportunity to mix
pulses. i
        > look to create loops where the different pulses get maximally out
of phase
        > and then come together for a kind of tension-release effect.
        >
        > For example, i may have one loop with a strong 5/4 pulse and
another with a
        > strong 4/4 pulse. If the shortest note (in both loops) is an 
1/8th
note,
        > then they are synchronized by an 1/8th note tick. In this case, 
if
both
        > loops are 1 measure long, then they would come together every 40
ticks
        > (assuming the measures don't repeat internally). i then try to
write my
        > loops to maximize the tension, via harmonic structure, 
dissonance,
dynamics,
        > etc. just before the 41st tick, and then resolve on the 41st 
tick.
        >
        > This technique gets more interesting when the loops are more than
one
        > measure long. In the example above, 40 ticks is 5 measures of 
4/4,
and 4
        > measures of 5/4. That is, if we repeat a single measure of 4/4 5
times it
        > will line up exactly with a loop that repeats a single measure of
5/4 4
        > times. If we then make the 5/4 loop be two measures long, each
measure
        > observably distinct, then we don't have a real line up, i.e. 
pulse
and note
        > values line up, until 80 ticks go by. But, we have the pulses
lining up at
        > the 40 tick mark. Similarly, every 20 ticks there is a mini-"node
point",
        > where a subdivision of the beats of the two loops come together.
By playing
        > with mounting the tension and resolving, slightly on these
internal node
        > points, you can create really interesting effects.
        >
        > Note: i have intentionally left out what i think increases 
tension
because i
        > think that's different for different ears. Tritones, for example,
make me
        > happy.
        >
        > Another interesting technique is to create an 'outer' loop which
uses the
        > inner loop as 'events'. So, we could use the same 5 against 4
structure in
        > the example above as a guide for triggering the 5/4 loop or the
4/4 loop.
        > The question you have to decide is the duration of the event. If
you set it
        > equal to the duration of the longest loop, you only get the loops
playing at
        > the same time every 20 'events'. If you set it shorter, you get
more
        > overlap.
        >
        > (This approach, imho, seems much a much more promising 
application
of
        > fractals to music. The dimension along which the piece is
self-similar is
        > time. The application above says what happens to the structure of
the piece
        > as you increase the time dimension. Clearly, you see a similar
structure. As
        > you diminish time, the same thing out to happen. More
specifically, as you
        > diminish the time, you get closer to the pulse of the frequencies
that give
        > rise to our experience of the note. My (untested!) belief is that
if this
        > pulse is related by a number of iterations of an IFS to the
musicians
        > experience of the basic pulse(s) of the piece, then you get
appealing
        > noise.)
        >
        > Finally, it may seem to many that one must relate each loop to a
common
        > tick. But, i would suggest to a person that feels this way to
listen to the
        > work of Conlon Nancarrow, who uses player pianos to do looping 
and
other
        > interesting and related things. He sets the rhythmic 
relationships
between
        > the voices (take this to mean a generalized notion of a loop) to
be
        > non-integral numbers. In fact, some of his pieces have voices
progressing
        > with respect to each other at a rate measured by a transcendental
number
        > (i.e., it's not even rational).
        >
        > i hope this helps.
        >
        > --greg
        >
        >         -----Original Message-----
        >         From:   Bob Campbell [SMTP:astropulse@hotmail.com]
        >         Sent:   Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:08 PM
        >         To:     Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
        >         Subject:        dual loop technique?
        >
        >         I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices
        >         can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am
specifically
        >         interested in exploiting that device, but any generic
technique
        >         ideas are of interest.
        >
        >         Bob
        >
        >         ______________________________________________________
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