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Re: Ableton LIVE's ability to loop in real time
At 01:15 PM 3/12/2003, Per Boysen wrote:
> > Från: Kim Flint [mailto:kflint@loopers-delight.com]
> > there is also control latency in this case.
>
>Sure, you're perfectly right about that. But I could stand waiting 7
>milliseconds longer if I could bring just a laptop instead of this
>monster: http://www.boysen.se/pboy_looping_rig.jpg ;-D
Per, you miss my point. Absolute latency is not so much the issue, but
lack
of a guaranteed latency. Maybe control latency is 7ms nine times out of
ten, but every now and then it happens to be 50 ms, and maybe somewhat
rarer it is even higher. So if you perfectly tap a 1.00 second loop,
mostly
it is 1.00 seconds, but sometimes it ends up as 1.05s, or 0.97s. Once in a
while you get 1.20s. It will be somewhat random, depending on whether your
system happens to be busy doing something else at that moment. You can't
manage rhythm reliably with an os like that. (Judging by my win2k laptop,
you might sometimes get 3.0 seconds if the disk happens to be spinning up
or there is some network activity or whatever....)
A hard real-time system will always guarantee that any event will happen
in
a specific amount of time, no matter what else is happening. The EDP for
example, guarantees 1.5 ms for any switch or midi command to be executed,
at all times. A general purpose non-realtime os cannot do that.
> > Also "any recorded sound won't have to be played back until
> > the next loop
> > round" is only true in the most simplistic approach to looping. For
> > example, what if you tap reverse while you are overdubbing?
>
>Ooops.... Good point there! THAT maneuver will always be affected with
>some "early delay" in software loopers. I love to do this with the EDP
>and plucked string instruments!
that is just one example. another is handling sync to external devices.
There are others. All I have to do is think of all the things that used to
cause clicks in the echoplex during development, and that's where you will
have trouble in a non-realtime system.
If you look at the latest cars, it is common for PC systems to be built in
for driver navigation systems and passenger entertainment. Windows is
perfect for that because there are a lot of existing programs ready to go.
But I don't think you will find windows running the processor that
controls
your fuel injection or anti-lock brakes! True real-time os's are used for
those.
> > just recorded needs to be played back immediately or you will
> > get a pop,
>
>Not necessarily. A smoothing fade during that "reverse delay" period can
>be written into the software. I would have no problems with that. When
>it comes to reverb it's ok with some "predelay". Apparently software
>loopers will never be the same thing as hardware loopers. I guess both
>will have their pros and cons.
Well, good luck with that one.
to me, a more significant issue than these technical points is the user
interface. Notebook computers are designed for businessmen to create power
point slides in airports and display them in conference rooms. I know, I
used to design these things. That's who the customer is, and that is who
the interface is designed for. There are no features tailored for
musicians
except by coincidence. If you want it to be a looper, you need to
customize
and add a lot of things for you to be able to control it and make it work
for that purpose. If you have that much time and patience on your hands,
great, go for it. I think most people would rather spend their time using
the tool rather than creating it.
Personally, I find myself with less and less patience for things where I
have to create the user interface details for a tool before I can use it.
I
don't have the time to research all the options, try them out, and make a
decision about what works best for an application. I want somebody else to
weed out all the bad ideas and present something coherent and workable.
Preferably they come up with a really intuitive interface with nice
ergonomics, and I can jump right in, learn how to work it, and start using
it. Then I can use that tool to do whatever it is I want to do, rather
then
spend all my time creating the tool for myself.
For example, I've now given up on the idea of using a PC/Mac for
recording.
I've been planning to go that route for years, but the burden of all the
decisions needed to make it happen was too much. I didn't have time for
figuring it out, so it never happened. My girlfriend has been frustrated
about this for years, since she is the one who really likes recording and
had outgrown the 4-tracks, but for her figuring out the pc requirements
was
too intimidating to even start. Instead we just bought a 16 track
standalone hard disk recorder with a cd-r built in. (Yamaha AW16G).
Everything is laid out nicely, all the elements we need are there - mixer,
patchbay, effects, i/o, eq, cdr, hd, loop sampler, etc. Nicely ergonomic
control surface, good quality audio, easy to use, etc. No decisions to
make, just learn to use it and go. One credit card transaction. It does
everything we need and then some, and in the end probably cost a lot less
than I would have spent on a pc recording system. We're happy, and she'll
probably begin a recording project here within days. It probably would
have
been years if we kept on the PC path.
To me, that is the real advantage of a dedicated device over a general
purpose computer/laptop. How much time and energy are you going to put
into
customizing an interface for that general purpose device to fit your
needs,
before you can do anything with it at all? How much time are you going to
spend screwing around with it later, fixing problems, installing updates,
etc? The dedicated device might have you up and running in minutes. And
after all the effort you put into customizing the general purpose device
for your needs, how good is it really? A dedicated device had one or more
knowledgeable people spend a whole bunch of time figuring out the details
of the interface design, probably with input from other users. These days
I
find I'd much rather take advantage of the interface design work that
somebody else already did, rather than reinventing that wheel myself.
To each his own I guess. Certainly there are people who love the idea of
building their own musical tools. I think they are the musician equivalent
of people who build hot rods. Its a lot of fun and a passion to build your
own car, even if ultimately you hardly ever drive it except to shows with
other hot rod builders. Most people would prefer to just have a car that
gets them from A to B.....
kim
______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint | Looper's Delight
kflint@loopers-delight.com | http://www.loopers-delight.com