From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Fri Feb 1 00:05:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: looparc@loopers-delight.com Delivered-To: looper+looparc@arsenic.violacea.com Received: by arsenic.violacea.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5A0B01834AC; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 00:05:53 +0000 (UTC) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Delivered-To: looper+loopers-delight@arsenic.violacea.com X-Greylist: delayed 628 seconds by postgrey-1.32 at arsenic; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 00:05:53 UTC DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BeKrpETBtu9VCh14na6lLC5Zs6p2UGalibaRFaTJpZTM6qlfXClV21StFjUQbbt+; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Organization:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <510B0435.1020103@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:54:29 -0800 From: JC Reply-To: jcmg@earthlink.net Organization: JC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Goodman , "Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com" Subject: Re: Zoe Keating in NY Times article.@borisfx.com References: <510912F4.9040003@cruzio.com> <0FC1BFF5C7B94E51A1ED07147C8AE3B4@ELUS1> In-Reply-To: <0FC1BFF5C7B94E51A1ED07147C8AE3B4@ELUS1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 250e53821a8c36f54d2b10475b571120f26d4edd6605beb4f37e579715986ba2548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.181.231.116 Resent-Message-ID: <8iUkGD.A.DgH.hbwCRB@arsenic> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/120076 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 00:05:53 +0000 (UTC) You don't understand the way that Pandora works. It's supposed to take you to different artists. All the music is interconnected through algorithms and careful music analysis. The objective is to connect music in various significant ways. You may not agree with the connections, but that is the intent: to connect music so that the listener may discover music they haven't already heard. Pandora's founder is a musician himself and constantly is trying to make sure that the system is fair to musicians like us. JC Mendizabal Black Note Music http://www.blacknotemusic.com http://soundcloud.com/kyron http://soundcloud.com/rfcl https://soundcloud.com/prospero2013 Other Sites http://rfcl.tumblr.com/ http://www.radiofreeclearlight.com http://maddogmagick.blogspot.com/ http://secretsareeverywhere.blogspot.com/ On 1/30/2013 7:09 AM, Stephen Goodman wrote: > Even using Pandora is a bad joke. You can select for example the > "Brian Eno Channel" and expect to hear nothing but the work of the > Domed One, but no! Very badly organized, you're as likely to hear > Vangelis and Manheim Steamroller, for Chrissakes. They just don't get > it. STILL! It's therefore evident that denizens of the music > industry have infested these companies otherwise they'd be doing > something with their systems besides generating income for themselves. > > -----Original Message----- From: Rick Walker > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:32 AM > To: LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting) > Subject: Re: Zoe Keating in NY Times article.@borisfx.com > > On 1/29/2013 9:39 PM, Emile Tobenfeld (a.k.a Dr. T) wrote: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/29/business/media/streaming-shakes-up-music-industrys-model-for-royalties.html?ref=us >> >> >> >> *This is one of the most depressing articles I've read in a long time.** >> ** >> **Does anyone remember when Colonel Tom Parker was revealed to have >> cut a deal with Elvis Presley ** >> * > *so that he would receive a usurious 50% of ALL money that Elvis made?** > ** > **It was unprecedented and the rest of the music business, artists and > the public recoiled heavily from the news (though cynics always > pointed ** > **out that 50% of $40 million dollars was still vastly better than 0% of > nothing).** > ** > **Well folks, iTunes, one of the greatest rapists of musical > artistry, in the world charges 50% of ALL DOWNLOAD SALES.** > ** > **And they are the good guys compared to Pandora and Spotify, whose > statistics make iTunes look like positive artistic ** > **philanthropists.** > > A new paradigm of selling digital content online needs to assert > itself. One that is fair to artists and all the energy > and time and money they spend trying to create art for people. > > There are rumors of this coming. I can't wait. > > Rick Walker > Fuck iTunes! Fuck Spotify! Fuck Pandora! > Fuck the dominant paradigm that says that downloading other people's > music is okay as long as you get away with it. > Theft if Theft, Folks! > * > From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Fri Feb 1 01:31:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: looparc@loopers-delight.com Delivered-To: looper+looparc@arsenic.violacea.com Received: by arsenic.violacea.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1DCC51834AC; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 01:31:26 +0000 (UTC) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Delivered-To: looper+loopers-delight@arsenic.violacea.com Message-ID: <510B1AF2.9090104@cruzio.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:31:30 -0800 From: Rick Walker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Cheli-Colando , "LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting)" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Zoe Keating in NY Times article.@borisfx.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090703020701060206090706" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/120077 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 01:31:26 +0000 (UTC) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090703020701060206090706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/31/2013 3:27 PM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote: >> No disrespect meant Rick, but you seriously can't get gigs that make you*Oh, forgive me................I get confused all of the* *Oh, forgive me, I get confused all of the time when people keep the whole quote in their thread. /R.* > --------------090703020701060206090706 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 1/31/2013 3:27 PM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:
No disrespect meant Rick, but you seriously can't get gigs that make youOh, forgive me................I get confused all of the
Oh, forgive me, I get confused all of the time when people keep the whole quote in their thread.   

/R.

      

      



    

    

  


--------------090703020701060206090706--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb  1 02:32:52 2013
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:32:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Mungenast 
Subject: Re: getting paid
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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This is all good stuff but my psych/jam power trio has never made more than=
 $40 a gig to split 3 ways, with 2 exceptions over the past 21 years: 2 ver=
y fun, very lucrative nights playing a Halloween horror theme park in 40-de=
gree weather.=20

Generally, the money thing is almost too embarrassing to talk about, but wh=
en I think about how many other good Boston bands play to almost-empty room=
s, I realize I am in good company.



--- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans  wrote:

From: David Gans 
Subject: getting paid
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Cc: "David Gans" 
Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM


On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel Thomas  wrote:

playing a low comp gig for the love of it need not gut the financial motive=
 in professional musicianship. =A0
I agree. I do lots of gigs for things other than money. The farmers' market=
 is not good money, but being part of that healthy movement is important to=
 me, and I enjoy having a four-hour block of time in which I can do anythin=
g I want.

For these reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola. =A0The b=
and agreed to a minimum income standard to which we would all make ourselve=
s available as a top priority. =A0Anything beneath this standard required m=
e to get buy in from band members before committing. =A0But, if the gig met=
 or beat the standard, I was free to book and presume flexible availability=
 of all band members. =A0With this agreement in place, we began saying no t=
o gigs that were beneath the standard. =A0Where labor of love factors preva=
iled, we had a process by which to make exceptions.. =A0and we certainly di=
d so when it was good for the art, the band, or the community--but we I did=
 not allow this to replace the standard valuation for our band. =A0
I'm in a band now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed about money than I=
 am. We have been good for each other's attitudes: we have said no to some =
gigs I might otherwise have done, and I have gotten him to say yes to a few=
 gigs that had other than financial merit.


With this approach, =A0our band compensation increased to >$100 per man /gi=
g on average in less than 3 months. =A0 In addition to this, our band leade=
r began earning a band leaders cut above and beyond the base line comp for =
the band members. =A0And, we were able to shave ten percent off of every gi=
g for the band fund which facilitated future bookings and promotions of a s=
imilar caliber.
Wise!!






=0ADavid Gans - david@trufun.com or david@gdhour.comBlog: =A0http://cloudsu=
rfing.gdhour.com



=0A=0A

---304233189-946117548-1359685970=:51242
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This is all good stuff but my psych/jam p=
ower trio has never made more than $40 a gig to split 3 ways, with 2 except=
ions over the past 21 years: 2 very fun, very lucrative nights playing a Ha=
lloween horror theme park in 40-degree weather. 

Generally, the mone=
y thing is almost too embarrassing to talk about, but when I think about ho=
w many other good Boston bands play to almost-empty rooms, I realize I am i=
n good company.



--- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans <da=
vid@trufun.com> wrote:

From: Dav=
id Gans <david@trufun.com>
Subject: getting paid
To: Loopers-De=
light@loopers-delight.com
Cc: "David Gans" <david@trufun.com>
D=
ate: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM


On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel=
 Thomas <danielthoma=
s4@mac.com> wrote:


=

=

playing a low comp gig for the love of it need=
 not gut the financial motive in professional musicianship.  
=


I agree. I do lots of gigs for things other=
 than money. The farmers' market is not good money, but being part of that =
healthy movement is important to me, and I enjoy having a four-hour block o=
f time in which I can do anything I want.

For these reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Ono=
la.  The band agreed to a minimum income standard to which we would al=
l make ourselves available as a top priority.  Anything beneath this s=
tandard required me to get buy in from band members before committing. &nbs=
p;But, if the gig met or beat the standard, I was free to book and presume =
flexible availability of all band members.  With this agreement in pla=
ce, we began saying no to gigs that were beneath the standard.  Where =
labor of love factors prevailed, we had a process by which to make exceptio=
ns..  and we certainly did so when it was good for the art, the band, =
or the community--but we I did not allow this to replace the standard valua=
tion for our band.  

=

I'm in a band now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed about m=
oney than I am. We have been good for each other's attitudes: we have said =
no to some gigs I might otherwise have done, and I have gotten him to say y=
es to a few gigs that had other than financial merit.

<=
/div>


With this approach,  our ba=
nd compensation increased to >$100 per man /gig on average in less than =
3 months.   In addition to this, our band leader began earning a band =
leaders cut above and beyond the base line comp for the band members.  =
;And, we were able to shave ten percent off of every gig for the band fund =
which facilitated future bookings and promotions of a similar caliber.

=

Wise!!







---304233189-946117548-1359685970=:51242--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb  1 18:05:53 2013
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$40?  That will buy a fancy coffee at Starbucks for you guys, with three =
straws.

I guess if you want to get paid for gigs, you have to stop doing them =
for free.  I still think teaching is a great way to go, if you can do =
it, and performing as a secondary income.=20

Or, networking and building a movement!  And right now, I am developing =
a non-profit arts center in my city, so that I can hopefully get a =
salary from that. =20

"If you ever get annoyed, look at me, I'm self employed. I love to work =
at nothin' all day."

Michael C.
3x09

On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Tim Mungenast wrote:

>=20
> This is all good stuff but my psych/jam power trio has never made more =
than $40 a gig to split 3 ways, with 2 exceptions over the past 21 =
years: 2 very fun, very lucrative nights playing a Halloween horror =
theme park in 40-degree weather.=20
>=20
> Generally, the money thing is almost too embarrassing to talk about, =
but when I think about how many other good Boston bands play to =
almost-empty rooms, I realize I am in good company.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans  wrote:
>=20
> From: David Gans 
> Subject: getting paid
> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> Cc: "David Gans" 
> Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM
>=20
>=20
> On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel Thomas  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> playing a low comp gig for the love of it need not gut the financial =
motive in professional musicianship. =20
>=20
> I agree. I do lots of gigs for things other than money. The farmers' =
market is not good money, but being part of that healthy movement is =
important to me, and I enjoy having a four-hour block of time in which I =
can do anything I want.
>=20
>>=20
>> For these reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola.  =
The band agreed to a minimum income standard to which we would all make =
ourselves available as a top priority.  Anything beneath this standard =
required me to get buy in from band members before committing.  But, if =
the gig met or beat the standard, I was free to book and presume =
flexible availability of all band members.  With this agreement in =
place, we began saying no to gigs that were beneath the standard.  Where =
labor of love factors prevailed, we had a process by which to make =
exceptions..  and we certainly did so when it was good for the art, the =
band, or the community--but we I did not allow this to replace the =
standard valuation for our band. =20
>=20
> I'm in a band now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed about money =
than I am. We have been good for each other's attitudes: we have said no =
to some gigs I might otherwise have done, and I have gotten him to say =
yes to a few gigs that had other than financial merit.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> With this approach,  our band compensation increased to >$100 per man =
/gig on average in less than 3 months.   In addition to this, our band =
leader began earning a band leaders cut above and beyond the base line =
comp for the band members.  And, we were able to shave ten percent off =
of every gig for the band fund which facilitated future bookings and =
promotions of a similar caliber.
>=20
> Wise!!
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> David Gans - david@trufun.com or david@gdhour.com
> Blog:  http://cloudsurfing.gdhour.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail-2--817339938
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

$40? =
 That will buy a fancy coffee at Starbucks for you guys, with three =
straws.

I guess if you want to get paid for gigs, you =
have to stop doing them for free.  I still think teaching is a =
great way to go, if you can do it, and performing as a secondary =
income. 

Or, networking and building a =
movement!  And right now, I am developing a non-profit arts center =
in my city, so that I can hopefully get a salary from that. =
 

"If you ever get annoyed, look at me, =
I'm self employed. I love to work at nothin' all =
day."

Michael =
C.
3x09

On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:32 PM, =
Tim Mungenast wrote:


This is all good stuff but =
my psych/jam power trio has never made more than $40 a gig to split 3 =
ways, with 2 exceptions over the past 21 years: 2 very fun, very =
lucrative nights playing a Halloween horror theme park in 40-degree =
weather. 

Generally, the money thing is almost too embarrassing =
to talk about, but when I think about how many other good Boston bands =
play to almost-empty rooms, I realize I am in good =
company.



--- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans <david@trufun.com> =
wrote:

From: David Gans <david@trufun.com>
Subject: =
getting paid
To: Loopers-Delight@looper=
s-delight.com
Cc: "David Gans" <david@trufun.com>
Date: =
Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM


On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, =
Daniel Thomas <danielthomas4@ma=
c.com> wrote:


playing a low =
comp gig for the love of it need not gut the financial motive in =
professional musicianship. =
 

=
I agree. I do lots of gigs for things other than money. The farmers' =
market is not good money, but being part of that healthy movement is =
important to me, and I enjoy having a four-hour block of time in which I =
can do anything I want.


For =
these reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola.  The =
band agreed to a minimum income standard to which we would all make =
ourselves available as a top priority.  Anything beneath this =
standard required me to get buy in from band members before committing. =
 But, if the gig met or beat the standard, I was free to book and =
presume flexible availability of all band members.  With this =
agreement in place, we began saying no to gigs that were beneath the =
standard.  Where labor of love factors prevailed, we had a process =
by which to make exceptions..  and we certainly did so when it was =
good for the art, the band, or the community--but we I did not allow =
this to replace the standard valuation for our band. =
 

=

I'm in a band now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed =
about money than I am. We have been good for each other's attitudes: we =
have said no to some gigs I might otherwise have done, and I have gotten =
him to say yes to a few gigs that had other than financial =
merit.



With this approach, =
 our band compensation increased to >$100 per man /gig on =
average in less than 3 months.   In addition to this, our band =
leader began earning a band leaders cut above and beyond the base line =
comp for the band members.  And, we were able to shave ten percent =
off of every gig for the band fund which facilitated future bookings and =
promotions of a similar =
caliber.

=

Wise!!



<=
br>



=

=

--Apple-Mail-2--817339938--

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	<0D06F12A-3294-4FAE-BDE1-6FBBB5B4F240@carlsonarts.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 10:57:31 -0800
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: getting paid
From: Kevin Cheli-Colando 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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--14dae93b5c80c418ce04d4ae5023
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I think this may be the way forward really.  We have a really nice intimate
theatre that is great for about 100-150 and they recently moved over to
becoming a non-profit community space expressly for the purpose of a)
potential grant supports b) creating a stable space for performance c)
being able to provide income for as many people as they can possibly
support (grant writers, performers, staff, etc.)

It seems that artists may need to become more active in creating their own
performance spaces (co-ops and the like) in order to build something a
little more than $30 gigs for themselves.  It'd probably be a good deal of
fun too.

Kevin

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:05 AM, TripleOhNine <3x09@carlsonarts.com> wrote:

> $40?  That will buy a fancy coffee at Starbucks for you guys, with three
> straws.
>
> I guess if you want to get paid for gigs, you have to stop doing them for
> free.  I still think teaching is a great way to go, if you can do it, and
> performing as a secondary income.
>
> Or, networking and building a movement!  And right now, I am developing a
> non-profit arts center in my city, so that I can hopefully get a salary
> from that.
>
> "If you ever get annoyed, look at me, I'm self employed. I love to work at
> nothin' all day."
>
> Michael C.
> 3x09
>
> On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Tim Mungenast wrote:
>
>
> This is all good stuff but my psych/jam power trio has never made more
> than $40 a gig to split 3 ways, with 2 exceptions over the past 21 years: 2
> very fun, very lucrative nights playing a Halloween horror theme park in
> 40-degree weather.
>
> Generally, the money thing is almost too embarrassing to talk about, but
> when I think about how many other good Boston bands play to almost-empty
> rooms, I realize I am in good company.
>
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans * wrote:
>
>
> From: David Gans 
> Subject: getting paid
> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> Cc: "David Gans" 
> Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel Thomas  wrote:
>
>
> playing a low comp gig for the love of it need not gut the financial
> motive in professional musicianship.
>
>
> I agree. I do lots of gigs for things other than money. The farmers'
> market is not good money, but being part of that healthy movement is
> important to me, and I enjoy having a four-hour block of time in which I
> can do anything I want.
>
>
> For these reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola.  The
> band agreed to a minimum income standard to which we would all make
> ourselves available as a top priority.  Anything beneath this standard
> required me to get buy in from band members before committing.  But, if the
> gig met or beat the standard, I was free to book and presume flexible
> availability of all band members.  With this agreement in place, we began
> saying no to gigs that were beneath the standard.  Where labor of love
> factors prevailed, we had a process by which to make exceptions..  and we
> certainly did so when it was good for the art, the band, or the
> community--but we I did not allow this to replace the standard valuation
> for our band.
>
>
> I'm in a band now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed about money than
> I am. We have been good for each other's attitudes: we have said no to some
> gigs I might otherwise have done, and I have gotten him to say yes to a few
> gigs that had other than financial merit.
>
>
>
> With this approach,  our band compensation increased to >$100 per man /gig
> on average in less than 3 months.   In addition to this, our band leader
> began earning a band leaders cut above and beyond the base line comp for
> the band members.  And, we were able to shave ten percent off of every gig
> for the band fund which facilitated future bookings and promotions of a
> similar caliber.
>
>
> Wise!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David Gans - david@trufun.com or david@gdhour.com
> Blog:  http://cloudsurfing.gdhour.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

--14dae93b5c80c418ce04d4ae5023
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think this may be the way forward really. =A0We have a really nice intima=
te theatre that is great for about 100-150 and they recently moved over to =
becoming a non-profit community space=A0expressly=A0for the purpose of a) p=
otential grant supports b) creating a stable space for performance c) being=
 able to provide income for as many people as they can possibly support (gr=
ant writers, performers, staff, etc.)


It seems that artists may need to become more active in crea=
ting their own performance spaces (co-ops and the like) in order to build s=
omething a little more than $30 gigs for themselves. =A0It'd probably b=
e a good deal of fun too.



Kevin

On Fri, Feb 1, =
2013 at 10:05 AM, TripleOhNine <3x09@carlsonarts.com> wro=
te:


$40? =A0=
That will buy a fancy coffee at Starbucks for you guys, with three straws.<=
div>

I guess if you want to get paid for gigs, you have to stop d=
oing them for free. =A0I still think teaching is a great way to go, if you =
can do it, and performing as a secondary income.=A0


Or, networking and building a movement! =A0And right now, I am developing a=
 non-profit arts center in my city, so that I can hopefully get a salary fr=
om that. =A0

"If you ever get annoyed, look a=
t me, I'm self employed. I love to work at nothin' all day."


Michael C.
3x09
<=
div>
On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Tim Mungenast wrote:



This is all good s=
tuff but my psych/jam power trio has never made more than $40 a gig to spli=
t 3 ways, with 2 exceptions over the past 21 years: 2 very fun, very lucrat=
ive nights playing a Halloween horror theme park in 40-degree weather. 


Generally, the money thing is almost too embarrassing to talk about, bu=
t when I think about how many other good Boston bands play to almost-empty =
rooms, I realize I am in good company.



--- On Thu, 1/31/1=
3, David Gans <=
david@trufun.com> wrote:



From: David Gans <david@trufun.com>
Subject: getting paid
T=
o: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com

Cc: "David Gans" <david@trufun.com>
Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4=
:54 PM


On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel T=
homas <danielthomas4@mac.com> wrote:



=

playing a low comp gig for the love of it need not =
gut the financial motive in professional musicianship. =A0



I agree. I do lots of gigs for things oth=
er than money. The farmers' market is not good money, but being part of=
 that healthy movement is important to me, and I enjoy having a four-hour b=
lock of time in which I can do anything I want.




For these reasons, I took on the=
 booking responsibility for Onola. =A0The band agreed to a minimum income s=
tandard to which we would all make ourselves available as a top priority. =
=A0Anything beneath this standard required me to get buy in from band membe=
rs before committing. =A0But, if the gig met or beat the standard, I was fr=
ee to book and presume flexible availability of all band members. =A0With t=
his agreement in place, we began saying no to gigs that were beneath the st=
andard. =A0Where labor of love factors prevailed, we had a process by which=
 to make exceptions.. =A0and we certainly did so when it was good for the a=
rt, the band, or the community--but we I did not allow this to replace the =
standard valuation for our band. =A0



I'm in a band now wi=
th a guy who is much more hard-nosed about money than I am. We have been go=
od for each other's attitudes: we have said no to some gigs I might oth=
erwise have done, and I have gotten him to say yes to a few gigs that had o=
ther than financial merit.





With this approac=
h, =A0our band compensation increased to >$100 per man /gig on average i=
n less than 3 months. =A0 In addition to this, our band leader began earnin=
g a band leaders cut above and beyond the base line comp for the band membe=
rs. =A0And, we were able to shave ten percent off of every gig for the band=
 fund which facilitated future bookings and promotions of a similar caliber=
.



Wise!!









<=
br>


-- 
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body an=
d to have a

form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.<=
br>
- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)




--14dae93b5c80c418ce04d4ae5023--

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From: TripleOhNine <3x09@carlsonarts.com>
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Yes, Kevin, I am having a great time, and making tons of friends while =
developing this arts center project.  And part of the focus will be =
providing guidance and training to young artists (visual, musical, =
etc.), in how to make a living with their craft.

Michael
3x09

On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:57 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:

> It seems that artists may need to become more active in creating their =
own performance spaces (co-ops and the like) in order to build something =
a little more than $30 gigs for themselves.  It'd probably be a good =
deal of fun too.
>=20
> Kevin
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:05 AM, TripleOhNine <3x09@carlsonarts.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have =
a
> form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all =
trouble.
>=20
> - Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)
>=20


--Apple-Mail-3--813326659
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Yes, Kevin, I am having a great time, and making tons of friends while developing this arts center project.  And part of the focus will be providing guidance and training to young artists (visual, musical, etc.), in how to make a living with their craft.

Michael
3x09

On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:57 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:

It seems that artists may need to become more active in creating their own performance spaces (co-ops and the like) in order to build something a little more than $30 gigs for themselves.  It'd probably be a good deal of fun too.



Kevin

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:05 AM, TripleOhNine <3x09@carlsonarts.com> wrote:





-- 
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a

form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)







--Apple-Mail-3--813326659--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb  1 19:16:01 2013
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Hi Rick

I don't know much about Itunes or Spotify.
But I do know a lot about Pandora.
The way I see it, it's one of the best things that have ever happened 
for niche musicians like us.
It's not the best for big million selling artists, but one of the 
founding principles of Pandora is to create a musician middle class.
In other words, it provides a way for small artists to reach their audience.
And it is slowly working for many indy artists.

JC Mendizabal
Black Note Music
http://www.blacknotemusic.com
http://soundcloud.com/kyron
http://soundcloud.com/rfcl
https://soundcloud.com/prospero2013

Other Sites
http://rfcl.tumblr.com/
http://www.radiofreeclearlight.com
http://maddogmagick.blogspot.com/
http://secretsareeverywhere.blogspot.com/


On 1/30/2013 3:44 PM, Rick Walker wrote:
> I get a lot of 'quit crying over spilt milk'  kinds of responses
> to my own anger about the way that music and musicians have been so 
> devalued
> in our culture due to the new paradigm shift of downloading (and the 
> demise of the CD)
>
> I know it's not going to change (though I have some powerful friends 
> who are attempting to
> come up with a new paradigm---more on that later),
> but what I've noticed is that people are really uncomfortable about
> anger being expressed openly in a public forum,  but they seem completely
> okay with the major companies being completely usurous and exploitive.
> It's a sort of  "regretful but that's the way it is 
> and we
> are powerless over it."
>
> At the same time,  major corporations spend millions of dollars trying to
> improve their images through the media (look at BP after their Gulf of 
> Mexico
> debacle)...........the major corporations DO listen to public opinion 
> and they
> do respond when there is a grass roots surge of protest.  Even the 
> largest company
> on earth, currently,  Apple,  is suddenly scrambling
> to try and bring some of their manufacturing back onto US soil because of
> universal public displeasure at the disclosures about the slave wage 
> conditions
> of their Chinese manufacturing sites.
>
> At one point in this country in the last century,
>   the major industries heavily exploited their laborers and they rose up
> against them and the Labor Unions were created and Child Labor laws
> were created and the 40 hour work week was established............all
> humanizing and positive influences in our culture.
>
> It took,  however,  major displeasure by the government and industry
> and a lot of indignant anger and organizing to forge those changes.
>
> iTunes,  Spotify,  Pandora and their ilk are 
> exploitive..........period.   point.   dot.
> Apple went from a cool 'underground'  artsy company to the largest 
> multi-media
> (indeed, purely the largest) company on the planet,   partially 
> because of their
> technological innovation and partially because of this very exploitation.
>
> Why don't we all just say "NO,  not any more"  to these people?
>
> It has nothing to do with being an old fart.
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb  1 19:37:32 2013
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 11:37:31 -0800 (PST)
From: bill bigrig 
Reply-To: bill bigrig 
Subject: Re: getting paid
To: "Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com" 
In-Reply-To: 
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The way I did it was to latch onto a country-western band of regional renow=
n because the main guy was a morning DJ on the #2 staion in western WA. I w=
as the soundguy. We opend for ALL the huge CW acts. I earned $150 to $200 e=
very weekend. After that, I latched onto pop-rock bands and was able to do =
soe reggae, (original) and electronica. They were always happy to oblige be=
cause my little bits were a change from playing cover tunes, giving them a =
bit of notoriety owing to the audiences poitive reaction to something they =
didd not expect. Again $150 to $200 a weekend, although these gigs paid unt=
raceable hard cash. Not a bad way to spend weekends.=0ARig=0A=A0=0A=0A=0A__=
______________________________=0AFrom: Kevin Cheli-Colando =0ATo: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com =0ASent: Friday, February =
1, 2013 10:57 AM=0ASubject: Re: getting paid=0A=0AI think this may be the w=
ay forward really. =A0We have a really nice intimate theatre that is great =
for about 100-150 and they recently moved over to becoming a non-profit com=
munity space=A0expressly=A0for the purpose of a) potential grant supports b=
) creating a stable space for performance c) being able to provide income f=
or as many people as they can possibly support (grant writers, performers, =
staff, etc.) =0A=0AIt seems that artists may need to become more active in =
creating their own performance spaces (co-ops and the like) in order to bui=
ld something a little more than $30 gigs for themselves. =A0It'd probably b=
e a good deal of fun too.=0A=0AKevin =0AOn Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Tr=
ipleOhNine <3x09@carlsonarts.com> wrote: =0A$40? =A0That will buy a fancy c=
offee at Starbucks for you guys, with three straws. =0A>=0A>=0A>I guess if =
you want to get paid for gigs, you have to stop doing them for free. =A0I s=
till think teaching is a great way to go, if you can do it, and performing =
as a secondary income.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>Or, networking and building a movement=
! =A0And right now, I am developing a non-profit arts center in my city, so=
 that I can hopefully get a salary from that. =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>"If you ever g=
et annoyed, look at me, I'm self employed. I love to work at nothin' all da=
y."=0A>=0A>=0A>Michael C.=0A>3x09=0A>On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Tim Munge=
nast wrote:=0A>=0A>>This is all good stuff but my psych/jam power trio has =
never made more than $40 a gig to split 3 ways, with 2 exceptions over the =
past 21 years: 2 very fun, very lucrative nights playing a Halloween horror=
 theme park in 40-degree weather. =0A>>=0A>>Generally, the money thing is a=
lmost too embarrassing to talk about, but when I think about how many other=
 good Boston bands play to almost-empty rooms, I realize I am in good compa=
ny.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>--- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans  w=
rote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>>From: David Gans =0A>>>Subject: gett=
ing paid=0A>>>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com=0A>>>Cc: "David Gans"=
 =0A>>>Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM=0A>>>=0A=
>>>=0A>>>On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel Thomas =
 wrote:=0A>>>playing a low comp gig for the love of it need not gut the fin=
ancial motive in professional musicianship. =A0=0A>>>I agree. I do lots of =
gigs for things other than money. The farmers' market is not good money, bu=
t being part of that healthy movement is important to me, and I enjoy havin=
g a four-hour block of time in which I can do anything I want.=0A>>>For the=
se reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola. =A0The band agr=
eed to a minimum income standard to which we would all make ourselves avail=
able as a top priority. =A0Anything beneath this standard required me to ge=
t buy in from band members before committing. =A0But, if the gig met or bea=
t the standard, I was free to book and presume flexible availability of all=
 band members. =A0With this agreement in place, we began saying no to gigs =
that were beneath the standard. =A0Where labor of love factors prevailed, w=
e had a process by which to make exceptions.. =A0and we certainly did so wh=
en it was good for the art, the band, or the community--but we I did not al=
low this to replace the standard valuation for our band. =A0=0A>>>I'm in a =
band now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed about money than I am. We h=
ave been good for each other's attitudes: we have said no to some gigs I mi=
ght otherwise have done, and I have gotten him to say yes to a few gigs tha=
t had other than financial merit.=0A>>>With this approach, =A0our band comp=
ensation increased to >$100 per man /gig on average in less than 3 months. =
=A0 In addition to this, our band leader began earning a band leaders cut a=
bove and beyond the base line comp for the band members. =A0And, we were ab=
le to shave ten percent off of every gig for the band fund which facilitate=
d future bookings and promotions of a similar caliber.=0A>>>Wise!!=0A>>>Dav=
id Gans - david@trufun.com or david@gdhour.com=0A>>>Blog: =A0http://cloudsu=
rfing.gdhour.com/ -- Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the b=
ody and to have aform. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause=
 of all trouble.- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)
---559651860-700371811-1359747451=:91661
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


The way I did it was to latch onto a coun=
try-western band of regional renown because the main guy was a morning DJ o=
n the #2 staion in western WA. I was the soundguy. We opend for ALL the hug=
e CW acts. I earned $150 to $200 every weekend. After that, I latched onto =
pop-rock bands and was able to do soe reggae, (original) and electronica. T=
hey were always happy to oblige because my little bits were a change from p=
laying cover tunes, giving them a bit of notoriety owing to the audiences p=
oitive reaction to something they didd not expect. Again $150 to $200 a wee=
kend, although these gigs paid untraceable hard cash. Not a bad way to spen=
d weekends.


Rig


 











From:=
 Kevin Cheli-Colando <billowhead@gmail.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.co=
m 
Sent: Friday, Februar=
y 1, 2013 10:57 AM
Subject:<=
/B> Re: getting paid


I think this may be the way forward really.  W=
e have a really nice intimate theatre that is great for about 100-150 and t=
hey recently moved over to becoming a non-profit community space expre=
ssly for the purpose of a) potential grant supports b) creating a stab=
le space for performance c) being able to provide income for as many people=
 as they can possibly support (grant writers, performers, staff, etc.)




It seems that artists may need to become more active in creating their=
 own performance spaces (co-ops and the like) in order to build something a=
 little more than $30 gigs for themselves.  It'd probably be a good de=
al of fun too.





Kevin

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Trip=
leOhNine <3x09@carls=
onarts.com> wrote:



$40?  That will buy a fancy coffe=
e at Starbucks for you guys, with three straws.




I guess if you want to get paid for gigs, you have to stop doing them =
for free.  I still think teaching is a great way to go, if you can do =
it, and performing as a secondary income. 





Or, networking and building a movement!  And right now, I am deve=
loping a non-profit arts center in my city, so that I can hopefully get a s=
alary from that.  





"If you ever get annoyed, look at me, I'm self employed. I love to wor=
k at nothin' all day."





Michael C.


3x09










On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Tim Mungenast wrote:





-- Till now you seriously considered yourself to be th=
e body and to have aform. That is the primal ignorance which is the ro=
ot cause of all trouble.- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)
---559651860-700371811-1359747451=:91661--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sat Feb  2 09:30:23 2013
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Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:30:09 +0100
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I'd love to come to NYC again and ideally, to make some music :)  but I =
haven't heard about any east coast festival plans. Anything?
=20
-Michael P
=20

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I'd love to come to NYC again and =
ideally, to make some music :)=C2=A0 =
but I haven't heard about any east coast festival plans. =
Anything?
 
-Michael P=

 

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when are you coming?





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when are you coming?










 





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hello Michael I'll be coming out there from the beginning of May to about the third week of May, and that ending is a little flexible. why what's up.



------------------------------
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 10:26 AM PST michael klobuchar wrote:

>when are you coming?
>
>
>
>
>
> 

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Subject: Galactic Travels Playlist #826 for January 31, 2013.
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http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/130131.html

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show, that
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem,
PA, 93.9 FM in Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville
and Trexlertown, and webcasting on the internet.  WDIY also broadcasts
in Digital HD at 88.1 FM.

Show #826 January 31, 2013.
WDIY Playlist:
http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels?playlist_date=01-31-2013

RECAP:
On this show, I concluded the month-long focus on Mystified. The
Featured CD at Midnight was "Breathe Beyond" on Parkbench Records.
http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#jan


PLAYLIST:

11:04 pm
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
Kevin Braheny        Starflight 1 *       Galaxies (Hearts of Space)
Mark Jenkins         Caravanserai         Ex1gene (AMP)
Dave Luxton          Coriolis             Collected Ambient Works
                                             (Wayfarer)
David Wright         Social Contagion     Connected (A. D. Music)
David Wright         Invisible Webs       Connected (A. D. Music)
Genetique            3th                  Submerge (none)
Radio Free Clear     The Grinding Wheel   The Labyrinth of Ohgel (Black
   Light                                     Note Music)
Kamil Kowalczyk      Andromeda            Nova (Prototyp Produktions)
VA [Har]             B'ak'tun 13          Doomsday and Brimstone (Sound
                                             for Good)


12:00 am
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
Mystified            Spinning Past a Void Breathe Beyond (Parkbench)
Mystified            To Breathe Is To     Breathe Beyond (Parkbench)
                        Realize
Mystified            Pulse Beyond         Breathe Beyond (Parkbench)
Mystified            The Beginning Is     Breathe Beyond (Parkbench)
                        Near
The Tanent Project   Departure            Live 2010-2011 (none)


1:00 am

  * = excerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)
++ = Advance CDR from Artist
-- = Background music under interview


NEXT SHOW:
On the next Galactic Travels, I'll conclude the month-long focus on
Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured CD at Midnight will be
"Grow" on Bogus Focus Records.
http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb

WDIY Announcement: http://wdiy.org/post/next-galactic-travels-2013-02-07

Bill
========================================================================
Host of Galactic Travels, an electronic, ambient, and space music show,
Thursdays at 11:04 pm EST/GMT-5 on WDIY 88.1 FM in Allentown and
Bethlehem, 93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, and on 93.7 FM in
Trexlertown and Fogelsville.  WDIY also broadcasts in HD Digital Radio
on 88.1 FM.
Galactic Travels web site: http://galactictravels.info
Listen to WDIY at http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels on-line.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb  3 10:05:09 2013
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To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Vox Delaylab- very mini review
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I got a email from Vox yesterday:

"Try out a Delaylab and we'll give you a free tuner".

too good an opportunity to miss, so went down to the local Vox dealer 
to confound the shop staff and do exactly that.


So, the delaylab as a looper:-

Given that this was done in a noisy music shop with no manual,
a random amp and a new guitar (without strap) which hadn't been set up.



1) It *doesn't* have a feedback control as implied in the manual, just one loop
   algorithm where the loop does fade slightly on overdub at a preset rate. - - -


2) Selecting any algorithm calls up a factory preset, particularly annoying
  when you select the one "loop with fade" algorithm which is paired with 
   an awful sounding delay with cheap reverb. - - -
   
3) There are two other algorithms with looping, but both have 100% feedback. Possibly
   one of those has a usable delay...but when you switch to the "fading loop" you call up
   that dreadful reverby setting ( and have to turn a knob to get rid of it every time) - - -

4) Each delay mode, including the one with looper has 3 algorithms.
   The only way to see which algorithm you're in in to press a select button...which changes 
   it and calls up factory presets. -

5) Loop functions are Rec/Dub, PLay/Stop/(hold to Clear), Reverse, Re-trigger. 

6) You can Re-trigger while overdubbing, but you can't reverse.

7) Procedure to replace a loop with a newly recorded one is Stop, longpressStop, Rec

8) Tap tempo delays aren't possible while looping. -

9) I think there's some kind of metronome type sync mode that I didn't try.
  

As a looper compared to DL4
1) Re-trigger doesn't force you into one-shot mode. +
2) No Half Speed - -
3) With the DL4 I could straight away work arrangements that combined the onboard delay
   with the looper. This *may* be possible with the delaylab, but I didn't manage it. - -

As a delay
1) Tap time possible. +
2) When changing delay time some algorithms do pitch bend like the DL4 (not like changing tape speed!) +
3) Some algorithms allowed you to start with a short delay and tap in a multiply ( up to 4S ) + +
4) Real fun was had with a delay with pitch shift in the feedback loop. but note that while
   a shift of a 4th up worked quite well  the 5th up sounded a bit rough and the octave up 
   was unusable. (i.e. that's like those cheap pitch shifters from over a decade ago).   + 

and overall:

It's much bigger than you'd think. About 50% larger than DL4 in all dimensions.

The Delaylab does have savable presets, so it's possible that with a bit of effort it would get more user friendly.

I couldn't really assess the sound quality, but didn't notice anything bad, and didn't notice analog type impressiveness either.

>From the manual, there are ways to make the sound continuous when switching preset,
with the 4 secs of delay available there might be some very neat tricks workable
to anyone with a bit of persistence. (e.g. switching briefly to a much shorter delay
for stutter action)... but this isn't confirmed.


Summary:
It's a very poor DL4 clone, for the price of a TC Flashback *plus* a TC-Ditto.
It doesn't have the immediate ease of use that made the DL4 so popular.
The large footprint is the final nail in the coffin.

I really didn't want to write such a negative review, and 
would welcome it if someone could make this device work for them.

Right...now lets see if they send the free Tuner.

andy butler





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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 03:21:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Richards 
Subject: Re: Vox Delaylab- very mini review
To: "Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com" ,
  "akbutler@tiscali.co.uk" 
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---1131079492-220753371-1359890492=:93745
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Your pricing comparison is incorrect. The Delaylab is approx $220 USD. The X4 is approx $249 USD. Not counting the cost of a TC Ditto. Just watched demos of both on YouTube by Pro Guitar. Both seem like fairly decent units for the cost. 


Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android


---1131079492-220753371-1359890492=:93745
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii







This is all good stuff but my psych/jam power trio has=
 never made more than $40 a gig to split 3 ways, with 2 exceptions over the=
 past 21 years: 2 very fun, very lucrative nights playing a Halloween horro=
r theme park in 40-degree weather. 

Generally, the money thing is al=
most too embarrassing to talk about, but when I think about how many other =
good Boston bands play to almost-empty rooms, I realize I am in good compan=
y.



--- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans <david@trufun.com> wrote:



From: David Gans <=
david@trufun.com>
Subject: getting paid
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-del=
ight.com
Cc: "David Gans" <david@truf=
un.com>
Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM









On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel Thomas <danielthomas4@mac.com> wrote:
















playing a low comp gig for the love of it need not gut the financial m=
otive in professional musicianship.  










I agree. I do lots of gigs for things other than money. The farmers' m=
arket is not good money, but being part of that healthy movement is importa=
nt to me, and I enjoy having a four-hour block of time in which I can do an=
ything I want.
















For these reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola. &nb=
sp;The band agreed to a minimum income standard to which we would all make =
ourselves available as a top priority.  Anything beneath this standard=
 required me to get buy in from band members before committing.  But, =
if the gig met or beat the standard, I was free to book and presume flexibl=
e availability of all band members.  With this agreement in place, we =
began saying no to gigs that were beneath the standard.  Where labor o=
f love factors prevailed, we had a process by which to make exceptions.. &n=
bsp;and we certainly did so when it was good for the art, the band, or the =
community--but we I did not allow this to replace the standard valuation fo=
r our band.  












I'm in a band now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed about money t=
han I am. We have been good for each other's attitudes: we have said no to =
some gigs I might otherwise have done, and I have gotten him to say yes to =
a few gigs that had other than financial merit.


















With this approach,  our band compensation increased to >$100 =
per man /gig on average in less than 3 months.   In addition to this, =
our band leader began earning a band leaders cut above and beyond the base =
line comp for the band members.  And, we were able to shave ten percen=
t off of every gig for the band fund which facilitated future bookings and =
promotions of a similar caliber.












Wise!!























Blog:  http://cloudsurfing.gdhour.com/




<=
/SPAN>
Your pricing comparison is incorrect. The Delaylab is approx $220 USD. The X4 is approx $249 USD. Not counting the cost of a TC Ditto. Just watched demos of both on YouTube by Pro Guitar. Both seem like fairly decent units for the cost. 




Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android


            

                

                    

                    

                        
                            

                            
                                From:
                            
                            andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk>;                            

                            
                                To:
                            
                             <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>;                                                                                                     

                            
                                Subject:
                            
                            Vox Delaylab- very mini review                            

                            
                                Sent:
                            
                            Sun, Feb 3, 2013 10:05:18 AM                            

                            
                            

                            

                                
                                    

                                        
I got a email from Vox yesterday:

"Try out a Delaylab and we'll give you a free tuner".

too good an opportunity to miss, so went down to the local Vox dealer to confound the shop staff and do exactly that.


So, the delaylab as a looper:-

Given that this was done in a noisy music shop with no manual,
a random amp and a new guitar (without strap) which hadn't been set up.



1) It *doesn't* have a feedback control as implied in the manual, just one loop
  algorithm where the loop does fade slightly on overdub at a preset rate. - - -


2) Selecting any algorithm calls up a factory preset, particularly annoying
 when you select the one "loop with fade" algorithm which is paired with   an awful sounding delay with cheap reverb. - - -
  3) There are two other algorithms with looping, but both have
 100% feedback. Possibly
  one of those has a usable delay...but when you switch to the "fading loop" you call up
  that dreadful reverby setting ( and have to turn a knob to get rid of it every time) - - -

4) Each delay mode, including the one with looper has 3 algorithms.
  The only way to see which algorithm you're in in to press a select button...which changes   it and calls up factory presets. -

5) Loop functions are Rec/Dub, PLay/Stop/(hold to Clear), Reverse, Re-trigger. 
6) You can Re-trigger while overdubbing, but you can't reverse.

7) Procedure to replace a loop with a newly recorded one is Stop, longpressStop, Rec

8) Tap tempo delays aren't possible while looping. -

9) I think there's some kind of metronome type sync mode that I didn't try.
 
As a looper compared to DL4
1) Re-trigger doesn't force you into one-shot mode. +
2) No Half Speed - -
3) With the DL4 I
 could straight away work arrangements that combined the onboard delay
  with the looper. This *may* be possible with the delaylab, but I didn't manage it. - -

As a delay
1) Tap time possible. +
2) When changing delay time some algorithms do pitch bend like the DL4 (not like changing tape speed!) +
3) Some algorithms allowed you to start with a short delay and tap in a multiply ( up to 4S ) + +
4) Real fun was had with a delay with pitch shift in the feedback loop. but note that while
  a shift of a 4th up worked quite well  the 5th up sounded a bit rough and the octave up   was unusable. (i.e. that's like those cheap pitch shifters from over a decade ago).   + 
and overall:

It's much bigger than you'd think. About 50% larger than DL4 in all dimensions.

The Delaylab does have savable presets, so it's possible that with a bit of effort it would get more user friendly.

I couldn't
 really assess the sound quality, but didn't notice anything bad, and didn't notice analog type impressiveness either.

From the manual, there are ways to make the sound continuous when switching preset,
with the 4 secs of delay available there might be some very neat tricks workable
to anyone with a bit of persistence. (e.g. switching briefly to a much shorter delay
for stutter action)... but this isn't confirmed.


Summary:
It's a very poor DL4 clone, for the price of a TC Flashback *plus* a TC-Ditto.
It doesn't have the immediate ease of use that made the DL4 so popular.
The large footprint is the final nail in the coffin.

I really didn't want to write such a negative review, and would welcome it if someone could make this device work for them.

Right...now lets see if they send the free Tuner.

andy butler






                                    

                                
                            

                    

                

            


---1131079492-220753371-1359890492=:93745--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb  3 11:56:14 2013
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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 12:56:10 +0100
From: "Buzap Buzap" 
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 <1615806613.435146889.1359509695388.JavaMail.root@zimbra67-e11.priv.proxad.net>
 
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I've done several workshops for children ca. 4-8 years age where I've incorporated live looping.
I've set up a very long loop in overdub mode. I've passed a microphone in the group where everyone could add a sound to the loop.
The sound was either percussion instruments, voice, beatboxing sounds or vocals thru guitar fx pedal.

best regards
Buzap

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb  3 16:07:52 2013
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> when are you coming?
 
no plans ... depends on (my schedule and) any planned events there
 
-mpe



 

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> w=
hen are you coming?
 
no =
plans ... depends on (my schedule and) any planned events =
there
 
-mpe
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal>

 

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01CE0230.FEC5BA60--

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Subject: Re: Vox Delaylab- very mini review
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 09:29:23 -0800
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I checked this out under less noisy conditions and found it to be good  
sounding but also disappointing because I have expectations that  
someone it going to come up with a real DL-4 killer, more loop time ,  
more delay time and the for me , basic features like half speed, undo,  
and reverse. perhaps even multiply. was I surprised? no. Though I'm  
happy with it in nearly every other regard, the looper on  the  
Eventide Timefactor is very sophisticated in its ability to record at  
different track speeds, and it has  an actual replace feature that can  
be activated by a long press. But alas, it has  such a minimal amount  
of loop time its nearly worthless to me as a stand alone looper,  
frustrating.  Its interface really needs an extra midi pedal to get  
the most out of it,  though I've been limping along with an extra 3  
button assignable switch for a while. Also, though it seems to slave  
to midi clock well, I haven't dug deep enough to find out how to  
prevent the machine from starting by itself  when the master midi  
device hits the down beat threshold point, very annoying if you want  
to stop the Timelines Loop while your master midi source continues to  
play. So do we have a trend here? It seems like the majority of the  
stand alone delays/loopers on the market fall down feature-wise in the  
looper department. Is the Strymon Timeline any different?
  Bill

  PS if its one of the little  Korg clip on tuners, I have one, they  
are cool, so it was worth the effort Andy!

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb  3 18:57:22 2013
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why what's up.


nothing really.....but if something were happening on the EAST COAST, i mig=
ht be interested in coming.....





=20

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why what's up.



nothing really.....but if somet=
hing were happening on the EAST COAST, i might be interested in coming.....=











 






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From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb  3 19:37:39 2013
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Subject: Re: Vox Delaylab- very mini review
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William Walker wrote:
 
>  PS if its one of the little  Korg clip on tuners, I have one, they are 
> cool, so it was worth the effort Andy!
> 

yes, that's the one :-)




andy

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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 12:17:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Mungenast 
Subject: Re: Vox Delaylab- very mini review
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I'm with you on the varispeed and reverse, Bill: these features are great fun and very useful. My Boomerang did all that, and did it well, but a week after I sold to my favorite store (to pay bills, natch), it blew up and had to be sent back to Texas. No fun for the next owner. So one more critical feature: IT HAS TO NOT SUCK! ;-)

Tim Mungenast
Editor/Writer/Proofreader: www.linkedin.com/in/timmungenast
Guitarist/Composer/Vocalist: www.reverbnation.com/timmungenast


--- On Sun, 2/3/13, William Walker  wrote:

> From: William Walker 
> Subject: Re: Vox Delaylab- very mini review
> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013, 12:29 PM
> I checked this out under less noisy
> conditions and found it to be good sounding but also
> disappointing because I have expectations that someone it
> going to come up with a real DL-4 killer, more loop time ,
> more delay time and the for me , basic features like half
> speed, undo, and reverse.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb  4 15:00:14 2013
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*Andy-thanks for the mini review-miracle you could sit at a music store and
get to test out all the features like that.
i've never felt that comfortable doing that at any of my local stores!!!!
when the delaylab came out i was hoping for
some features-well mainly the delays ability to varispeed...someone on TGP
got one right away and posted a review
of it, and i asked him if it would do it, and he said no. although your
comments that some of the delays have the ability
peaks my interest. the funny thing when this unit was going to come out and
i of course heard about the mini looper coming
out, i honestly thought-why don't you just rework the vox looper a little
better. it had the ability to slow down or speed up the
loop, but it was just one of the options you could assign the pedal
function-i thought why not just put the speed option
in a knob that is always available to manipulate? i guess no one likes to
mess w/ their loops. it's the same static loops for most folks...
i just don't get it.
oh well.

that said-i'm back to my setup that has a pigtronix echolution and a
digitech dl8 -those honestly serve my needs just fine.
s---


*


I got a email from Vox yesterday:

"Try out a Delaylab and we'll give you a free tuner".


too good an opportunity to miss, so went down to the local Vox dealer to
confound the shop staff and do exactly that.

So, the delaylab as a looper:-

Given that this was done in a noisy music shop with no manual,
a random amp and a new guitar (without strap) which hadn't been set up.



1) It *doesn't* have a feedback control as implied in the manual, just one
loop
  algorithm where the loop does fade slightly on overdub at a preset rate.
- - -


2) Selecting any algorithm calls up a factory preset, particularly annoying

when you select the one "loop with fade" algorithm which is paired with an
awful sounding delay with cheap reverb. - - - 3) There are two other
algorithms with looping, but both have 100% feedback. Possibly

  one of those has a usable delay...but when you switch to the "fading
loop" you call up
  that dreadful reverby setting ( and have to turn a knob to get rid of it
every time) - - -

4) Each delay mode, including the one with looper has 3 algorithms.

The only way to see which algorithm you're in in to press a select
button...which changes it and calls up factory presets. - 5) Loop functions
are Rec/Dub, PLay/Stop/(hold to Clear), Reverse, Re-trigger.

6) You can Re-trigger while overdubbing, but you can't reverse.

7) Procedure to replace a loop with a newly recorded one is Stop,
longpressStop, Rec

8) Tap tempo delays aren't possible while looping. -

9) I think there's some kind of metronome type sync mode that I didn't try.

 As a looper compared to DL4
1) Re-trigger doesn't force you into one-shot mode. +
2) No Half Speed - -
3) With the DL4 I could straight away work arrangements that combined the
onboard delay
  with the looper. This *may* be possible with the delaylab, but I didn't
manage it. - -

As a delay
1) Tap time possible. +
2) When changing delay time some algorithms do pitch bend like the DL4
(not like changing tape speed!) +
3) Some algorithms allowed you to start with a short delay and tap in a
multiply ( up to 4S ) + +
4) Real fun was had with a delay with pitch shift in the feedback loop.
but note that while

a shift of a 4th up worked quite well the 5th up sounded a bit rough and
the octave up was unusable. (i.e. that's like those cheap pitch shifters
from over a decade ago). +

and overall:

It's much bigger than you'd think. About 50% larger than DL4 in all
dimensions.

The Delaylab does have savable presets, so it's possible that with a bit
of effort it would get more user friendly.

I couldn't really assess the sound quality, but didn't notice anything
bad, and didn't notice analog type impressiveness either.


>From the manual, there are ways to make the sound continuous when
switching preset,

with the 4 secs of delay available there might be some very neat tricks
workable
to anyone with a bit of persistence. (e.g. switching briefly to a much
shorter delay
for stutter action)... but this isn't confirmed.


Summary:
It's a very poor DL4 clone, for the price of a TC Flashback *plus* a
TC-Ditto.
It doesn't have the immediate ease of use that made the DL4 so popular.
The large footprint is the final nail in the coffin.


I really didn't want to write such a negative review, and would welcome it
if someone could make this device work for them.

Right...now lets see if they send the free Tuner.

andy butler

--bcaec55408aca3df4d04d4e75940
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andy-thanks for the mini review-miracle you could sit at a music st=
ore and get to test out all the features like that.
i've never felt =
that comfortable doing that at any of my local stores!!!! when the delaylab=
 came out i was hoping for

some features-well mainly the delays ability to varispeed...someone on TGP =
got one right away and posted a review
of it, and i asked him if it woul=
d do it, and he said no. although your comments that some of the delays hav=
e the ability

peaks my interest. the funny thing when this unit was going to come out and=
 i of course heard about the mini looper coming
out, i honestly thought-=
why don't you just rework the vox looper a little better. it had the ab=
ility to slow down or speed up the

loop, but it was just one of the options you could assign the pedal functio=
n-i thought why not just put the speed option
in a knob that is always a=
vailable to manipulate? i guess no one likes to mess w/ their loops. it'=
;s the same static loops for most folks...

i just don't get it.
oh well.

that said-i'm back to my se=
tup that has a pigtronix echolution and a digitech dl8 -those honestly serv=
e my needs just fine.
s---



I got a email from Vox yesterday:

"Try out a Delaylab and we'll give you a free tuner".


too good an opportunity to miss, so went down to the local Vox de=
aler=20
to confound the shop staff and do exactly that.

So, the delaylab as a looper:-

Given that this was done in a noisy music shop with no manual,
a random amp and a new guitar (without strap) which hadn't been set up.



1) It *doesn't* have a feedback control as implied in the manual, just =
one=20
loop
  algorithm where the loop does fade slightly on overdub at a preset rate.=
=20
- - -


2) Selecting any algorithm calls up a factory preset, particularly annoying

 when you select the one "loop with fade" algorithm whi=
ch is paired with=20
  an awful sounding delay with cheap reverb. - - -
 =20
3) There are two other algorithms with looping, but both have 100%=
 feedback. Possibly

  one of those has a usable delay...but when=
 you switch to the "fading=20
loop" you call up
  that dreadful reverby setting ( and have to turn a knob to get rid of it=
=20
every time) - - -

4) Each delay mode, including the one with looper has 3 algorithms.

  The only way to see which algorithm you're in in to press a=
 select button...which changes=20
  it and calls up factory presets. -
5) Loop functions are Rec/Dub, PLay/Stop/(hold to Clear), Reverse,=
 Re-trigger.=20


6) You can Re-trigger while overdubbing, but=
 you can't reverse.

7) Procedure to replace a loop with a newly recorded one is Stop,=20
longpressStop, Rec

8) Tap tempo delays aren't possible while looping. -

9) I think there's some kind of metronome type sync mode that I didn=
9;t try.

=20


As a looper compared to DL4
1) Re-trigger doesn't force you into one-shot mode. +
2) No Half Speed - -
3) With the DL4 I could straight away work arrangements that combined the=
=20
onboard delay
  with the looper. This *may* be possible with the delaylab, but I didn'=
;t=20
manage it. - -

As a delay
1) Tap time possible. +
2) When changing delay time some algorithms do pitch bend like the DL4=20
(not like changing tape speed!) +
3) Some algorithms allowed you to start with a short delay and tap in a=20
multiply ( up to 4S ) + +
4) Real fun was had with a delay with pitch shift in the feedback loop.=20
but note that while

  a shift of a 4th up worked quite well  the 5th up sounded a bit=
 rough and the octave up=20
  was unusable. (i.e. that's like those cheap pitch shifters f=
rom over a decade ago).   +=20


and overall:

It's much bigger than you'd think. About 50% larger than DL4 in all=
=20
dimensions.

The Delaylab does have savable presets, so it's possible that with a bi=
t=20
of effort it would get more user friendly.

I couldn't really assess the sound quality, but didn't notice anyth=
ing=20
bad, and didn't notice analog type impressiveness either.


From the manual, there are ways t=
o make the sound continuous when=20
switching preset,

with the 4 secs of delay avail=
able there might be some very neat tricks=20
workable
to anyone with a bit of persistence. (e.g. switching briefly to a much=20
shorter delay
for stutter action)... but this isn't confirmed.


Summary:
It's a very poor DL4 clone, for the price of a TC Flashback *plus* a=20
TC-Ditto.
It doesn't have the immediate ease of use that made the DL4 so popular.
The large footprint is the final nail in the coffin.


I really didn't want to write such a negative review, and=20
would welcome it if someone could make this device work for them.

Right...now lets see if they send the free T=
uner.

andy butler








--bcaec55408aca3df4d04d4e75940--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb  4 15:52:43 2013
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From: "Buzap Buzap" 
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Subject: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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Hi folks

I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song writing purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environment.
Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience whatsoever with drum micing.

My current approach is basically similar to this:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.

How should I proceed next?
My current thoughts:

A.
Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums either for funky stuff).
For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.

B.
Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum programming.

With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...

With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.

I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.

Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.

best regards
Buzap

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb  4 15:58:48 2013
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personally, i program everything in the piano roll. yes, it's time =
consuming, but with a good set of multisamples, you can get really good =
results. one approach you might think about if you prefer playing the =
stuff in is to get a small electronic drumset. you won't bother the =
neighbours and you can record the midi performance and put whatever =
sounds you like on afterwards.

sim

On 4 Feb 2013, at 15:52, Buzap Buzap wrote:

> Hi folks
>=20
> I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song =
writing purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording =
environment.
> Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum =
set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
> However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience =
whatsoever with drum micing.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb  4 16:00:15 2013
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From: Per Boysen 
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You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
faking a live drummer.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song writing purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environment.
> Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
> However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience whatsoever with drum micing.
>
> My current approach is basically similar to this:
> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
> First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
>
> How should I proceed next?
> My current thoughts:
>
> A.
> Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums either for funky stuff).
> For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
>
> B.
> Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum programming.
>
> With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
>
> With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
>
> I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.
>
> Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
>
> best regards
> Buzap
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb  4 16:19:27 2013
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--f46d04016a75f1b3fe04d4e8741b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.

There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use
their midi drum beats as a start.



On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:

> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
> faking a live drummer.
>
> Greetings from Sweden
>
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
> > Hi folks
> >
> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song writing
> purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environment.
> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum
> set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience
> whatsoever with drum micing.
> >
> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the
> timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I
> tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
> >
> > How should I proceed next?
> > My current thoughts:
> >
> > A.
> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum
> cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums
> either for funky stuff).
> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
> >
> > B.
> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum
> programming.
> >
> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very
> flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over
> time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
> >
> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the right
> groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (space,
> neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
> >
> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio
> environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as
> possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.
> >
> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
> >
> > best regards
> > Buzap
> >
>
>

--f46d04016a75f1b3fe04d4e8741b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.

There's lots you can do=
 for realistic sounding drums and you can even use their midi drum beats as=
 a start.



On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at =
9:00 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:



You're right that it is "endlessly =
time consuming" to fake a live

drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then

you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what

time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so

much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as

cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy

sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than

faking a live drummer.



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen






On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap <buzap@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi folks

>

> I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song wr=
iting purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environm=
ent.

> Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum =
set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.

> However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience w=
hatsoever with drum micing.

>

> My current approach is basically similar to this:

> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-pr=
og.htm

> First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the=
 timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I =
tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.

>

> How should I proceed next?

> My current thoughts:

>

> A.

> Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum cymb=
als never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums e=
ither for funky stuff).

> For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.

>

> B.

> Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum=
 programming.

>

> With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm ver=
y flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over=
 time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...


>

> With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the rig=
ht groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (spac=
e, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.

>

> I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio environm=
ent. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible) is mor=
e important than having the perfect drum track.

>

> Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.

>

> best regards

> Buzap

>







--f46d04016a75f1b3fe04d4e8741b--

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--f46d042f9732ef688604d4e885f6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

+1 to Pers comment.
If you REALLY want to make it sound real, go record a drummer jamming for
an hour, and chop it up... I did that 20 years ago, and Im still using them
drum loops!!

M


On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Steven Clements wrote:

> I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
>
> There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use
> their midi drum beats as a start.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
>
>> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
>> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
>> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
>> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
>> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
>> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
>> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
>> faking a live drummer.
>>
>> Greetings from Sweden
>>
>> Per Boysen
>> www.perboysen.com
>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
>> > Hi folks
>> >
>> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song writing
>> purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environment.
>> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum
>> set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
>> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience
>> whatsoever with drum micing.
>> >
>> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
>> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
>> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the
>> timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I
>> tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
>> >
>> > How should I proceed next?
>> > My current thoughts:
>> >
>> > A.
>> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum
>> cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums
>> either for funky stuff).
>> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
>> >
>> > B.
>> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum
>> programming.
>> >
>> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very
>> flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over
>> time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
>> >
>> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the
>> right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment
>> (space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
>> >
>> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio
>> environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as
>> possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.
>> >
>> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
>> >
>> > best regards
>> > Buzap
>> >
>>
>>
>


-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--f46d042f9732ef688604d4e885f6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


+1 to Pers comment.
If you REALLY want to make it soun=
d real, go record a drummer jamming for an hour, and chop it up... I did th=
at 20 years ago, and Im still using them drum loops!!



M


On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Steven Clements <=
;sdclements@gmail=
.com> wrote:



I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
=

There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can ev=
en use their midi drum beats as a start.







On Mon, Feb 4,=
 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:<=
br>


You're right that it is "endlessly =
time consuming" to fake a live

drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then

you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what

time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so

much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as

cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy

sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than

faking a live drummer.



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen






On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap <buzap@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi folks

>

> I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song wr=
iting purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environm=
ent.

> Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum =
set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.

> However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience w=
hatsoever with drum micing.

>

> My current approach is basically similar to this:

> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-pr=
og.htm

> First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the=
 timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I =
tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.

>

> How should I proceed next?

> My current thoughts:

>

> A.

> Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum cymb=
als never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums e=
ither for funky stuff).

> For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.

>

> B.

> Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum=
 programming.

>

> With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm ver=
y flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over=
 time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...




>

> With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the rig=
ht groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (spac=
e, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.

>

> I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio environm=
ent. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible) is mor=
e important than having the perfect drum track.

>

> Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.

>

> best regards

> Buzap

>










-- 
=
Mark Francombe


www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com


http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no


twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
<=
/font>



--f46d042f9732ef688604d4e885f6--

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Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 08:35:19 -0800
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
From: Todd Elliott 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f235a17c7cb0004d4e8ad5d
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--e89a8f235a17c7cb0004d4e8ad5d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Seconding this. I don't use realistic drum sounds at all, but all the folk
I know who *do* care about such things use Toontrack's stuff. Sounds great.

T

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements wrote:

> I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
>
> There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use
> their midi drum beats as a start.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
>
>> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
>> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
>> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
>> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
>> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
>> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
>> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
>> faking a live drummer.
>>
>> Greetings from Sweden
>>
>> Per Boysen
>> www.perboysen.com
>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
>> > Hi folks
>> >
>> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song writing
>> purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environment.
>> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum
>> set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
>> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience
>> whatsoever with drum micing.
>> >
>> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
>> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
>> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the
>> timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I
>> tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
>> >
>> > How should I proceed next?
>> > My current thoughts:
>> >
>> > A.
>> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum
>> cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums
>> either for funky stuff).
>> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
>> >
>> > B.
>> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum
>> programming.
>> >
>> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very
>> flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over
>> time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
>> >
>> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the
>> right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment
>> (space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
>> >
>> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio
>> environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as
>> possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.
>> >
>> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
>> >
>> > best regards
>> > Buzap
>> >
>>
>>
>


-- 
http://toaster.bandcamp.com

--e89a8f235a17c7cb0004d4e8ad5d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Seconding this. I don't use realistic drum sounds at all, but all the f=
olk I know who *do* care about such things use Toontrack's stuff. Sound=
s great.=A0

T

On Mon, =
Feb 4, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements <sdclements@gmail.com> wrote:


I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
=

There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can ev=
en use their midi drum beats as a start.






On Mon, Feb 4,=
 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:<=
br>


You're right that it is "endlessly =
time consuming" to fake a live

drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then

you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what

time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so

much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as

cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy

sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than

faking a live drummer.



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen






On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap <buzap@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi folks

>

> I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song wr=
iting purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environm=
ent.

> Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum =
set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.

> However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience w=
hatsoever with drum micing.

>

> My current approach is basically similar to this:

> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-pr=
og.htm

> First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the=
 timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I =
tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.

>

> How should I proceed next?

> My current thoughts:

>

> A.

> Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum cymb=
als never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums e=
ither for funky stuff).

> For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.

>

> B.

> Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum=
 programming.

>

> With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm ver=
y flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over=
 time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...



>

> With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the rig=
ht groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (spac=
e, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.

>

> I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio environm=
ent. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible) is mor=
e important than having the perfect drum track.

>

> Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.

>

> best regards

> Buzap

>










-- 
=
http://toaster.ba=
ndcamp.com



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References: <20130204155240.67870@gmx.net> 
  
From: Steven Clements 
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 09:43:00 -0700
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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--e89a8f22bec1abf04604d4e8cb47
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

You can also bring in other drumming bits from folks like
http://www.oddgrooves.com/

He has some very affordable drum patterns you can build on or use straight
out of the gate.

These are mapped to work with Superior Drummer and a few others.

Monthly free patterns as well.

Nothing sounds as real as real drumming, I also use the sounds in Superior
Drummer and trigger it from the drumKat - instant vibe

Steve



On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Todd Elliott  wrote:

> Seconding this. I don't use realistic drum sounds at all, but all the folk
> I know who *do* care about such things use Toontrack's stuff. Sounds great.
>
> T
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements wrote:
>
>> I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
>>
>> There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use
>> their midi drum beats as a start.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
>>
>>> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
>>> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
>>> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
>>> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
>>> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
>>> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
>>> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
>>> faking a live drummer.
>>>
>>> Greetings from Sweden
>>>
>>> Per Boysen
>>> www.perboysen.com
>>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
>>> > Hi folks
>>> >
>>> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song
>>> writing purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording
>>> environment.
>>> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum
>>> set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
>>> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience
>>> whatsoever with drum micing.
>>> >
>>> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
>>> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
>>> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the
>>> timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I
>>> tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
>>> >
>>> > How should I proceed next?
>>> > My current thoughts:
>>> >
>>> > A.
>>> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum
>>> cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums
>>> either for funky stuff).
>>> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
>>> >
>>> > B.
>>> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum
>>> programming.
>>> >
>>> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very
>>> flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over
>>> time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
>>> >
>>> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the
>>> right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment
>>> (space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
>>> >
>>> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio
>>> environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as
>>> possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.
>>> >
>>> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
>>> >
>>> > best regards
>>> > Buzap
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> http://toaster.bandcamp.com
>

--e89a8f22bec1abf04604d4e8cb47
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You can also bring in other drumming bits from folks like
http://www.oddgrooves.com/

He has some =
very affordable drum patterns you can build on or use straight out of the g=
ate.=C2=A0 



These are mapped to work with Superior Drummer and a few others.
Monthly free patterns as well.

Nothing sounds as real as real drumm=
ing, I also use the sounds in Superior Drummer and trigger it from the drum=
Kat - instant vibe



Steve



On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at =
9:35 AM, Todd Elliott <toddbert@gmail.com> wrote:


Seconding this. I don't use realistic drum sounds at all, but all the f=
olk I know who *do* care about such things use Toontrack's stuff. Sound=
s great.=C2=A0

T




On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements <sdclements@gmail.com> wrote:


I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
=

There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can ev=
en use their midi drum beats as a start.








On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00=
 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:



You're right that it is "endlessly =
time consuming" to fake a live

drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then

you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what

time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so

much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as

cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy

sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than

faking a live drummer.



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen






On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap <buzap@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi folks

>

> I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song wr=
iting purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environm=
ent.

> Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum =
set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.

> However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience w=
hatsoever with drum micing.

>

> My current approach is basically similar to this:

> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-pr=
og.htm

> First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the=
 timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I =
tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.

>

> How should I proceed next?

> My current thoughts:

>

> A.

> Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum cymb=
als never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums e=
ither for funky stuff).

> For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.

>

> B.

> Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum=
 programming.

>

> With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm ver=
y flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over=
 time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...





>

> With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the rig=
ht groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (spac=
e, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.

>

> I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio environm=
ent. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible) is mor=
e important than having the perfect drum track.

>

> Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.

>

> best regards

> Buzap

>










<=
/div>-- 
http://toaster.bandcamp.com






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Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 11:59:55 -0500
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Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
From: Tony K 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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I don't do drums much, but when I do, I like using EZDrummer with my
SR16 or Yamaha DD50 to trigger.  I quantize a lot since I pretty much
just suck at drumming.

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Steven Clements  wrote:
> You can also bring in other drumming bits from folks like
> http://www.oddgrooves.com/
>
> He has some very affordable drum patterns you can build on or use straight
> out of the gate.
>
> These are mapped to work with Superior Drummer and a few others.
>
> Monthly free patterns as well.
>
> Nothing sounds as real as real drumming, I also use the sounds in Superior
> Drummer and trigger it from the drumKat - instant vibe
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Todd Elliott  wrote:
>>
>> Seconding this. I don't use realistic drum sounds at all, but all the folk
>> I know who *do* care about such things use Toontrack's stuff. Sounds great.
>>
>> T
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
>>>
>>> There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use
>>> their midi drum beats as a start.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
>>>> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
>>>> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
>>>> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
>>>> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
>>>> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
>>>> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
>>>> faking a live drummer.
>>>>
>>>> Greetings from Sweden
>>>>
>>>> Per Boysen
>>>> www.perboysen.com
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
>>>> > Hi folks
>>>> >
>>>> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song
>>>> > writing purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording
>>>> > environment.
>>>> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum
>>>> > set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
>>>> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience
>>>> > whatsoever with drum micing.
>>>> >
>>>> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
>>>> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
>>>> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the
>>>> > timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I
>>>> > tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
>>>> >
>>>> > How should I proceed next?
>>>> > My current thoughts:
>>>> >
>>>> > A.
>>>> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum
>>>> > cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums
>>>> > either for funky stuff).
>>>> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > B.
>>>> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum
>>>> > programming.
>>>> >
>>>> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very
>>>> > flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over
>>>> > time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
>>>> >
>>>> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the
>>>> > right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment
>>>> > (space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
>>>> >
>>>> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio
>>>> > environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible)
>>>> > is more important than having the perfect drum track.
>>>> >
>>>> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
>>>> >
>>>> > best regards
>>>> > Buzap
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://toaster.bandcamp.com
>
>



-- 
-==-=-=-
Tony

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A bottomless pit!
I use NI Maschine to program and Steven Slate Drums Platinum for sounds. =
 Excellent sort of pop rock and roll sounds.  Takes a fair bit of EQ =
work for other styles. =20

I tried using my old SP12 as a drum controller but the latency was =
pretty noticeable when triggering MIDI notes.  I had to slip all the =
notes forward to compensate for the lag.=20

Maschine and Slate Drums work great for fairly straight forward stuff.=20=


I do think the best solution is some kind of V / electronic Drums etc =
triggering the MIDI stuff.=20

One thing I'm thinking about is hiring remote drummers to do tracks on V =
Drums, or deriving MIDI data from their tracks (Trigger, Drumagog) and =
doing drum replacement where needed.  Not sure what a good remote =
drummer costs, though. =20

I see opportunity here, Mr. R Walker!

I think the new Ableton can derive MIDI from analog now too.  More =
utilitarian bang for the buck.

AS Simeon said, you can also step program.  Kontakt has a good step =
programmer, although I haven't really used it yet - just tinkered a bit.

richard sales
www.glasswing.com
www.richardsales.com
www.hayleysales.com
www.goodnaturefarms.com











On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements wrote:

> I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
>=20
> There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even =
use their midi drum beats as a start.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  =
wrote:
> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
> faking a live drummer.
>=20
> Greetings from Sweden
>=20
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
> > Hi folks
> >
> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song =
writing purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording =
environment.
> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic =
drum set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience =
whatsoever with drum micing.
> >
> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak =
the timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming =
part - I tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
> >
> > How should I proceed next?
> > My current thoughts:
> >
> > A.
> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum =
cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on =
e-drums either for funky stuff).
> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
> >
> > B.
> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into =
drum programming.
> >
> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very =
flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things =
over time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
> >
> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the =
right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment =
(space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
> >
> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio =
environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as =
possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.
> >
> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
> >
> > best regards
> > Buzap
> >
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail-2--559408098
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

A =
bottomless pit!
I use NI Maschine to program and Steven Slate Drums =
Platinum for sounds.  Excellent sort of pop rock and roll sounds. =
 Takes a fair bit of EQ work for other styles. =
 

I tried using my old SP12 as a drum =
controller but the latency was pretty noticeable when triggering MIDI =
notes.  I had to slip all the notes forward to compensate for the =
lag. 

Maschine and Slate Drums work great =
for fairly straight forward stuff. 

I do =
think the best solution is some kind of V / electronic Drums etc =
triggering the MIDI stuff. 

One thing I'm =
thinking about is hiring remote drummers to do tracks on V Drums, or =
deriving MIDI data from their tracks (Trigger, Drumagog) and doing drum =
replacement where needed.  Not sure what a good remote drummer =
costs, though.  

I see opportunity here, =
Mr. R Walker!

I think the new Ableton can =
derive MIDI from analog now too.  More utilitarian bang for the =
buck.

AS Simeon said, you can also step =
program.  Kontakt has a good step programmer, although I haven't =
really used it yet - just tinkered a bit.



richard sales
<=
font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#908E38">www.richardsales.com
=
www.goodnaturefarms.com=















On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements =
wrote:

I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.

There's =
lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use their =
midi drum beats as a start.



On =
Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:



You're right that it =
is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live

drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then

you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what

time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so

much time into faking something when there are loads of other just =
as

cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy

sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than

faking a live drummer.



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.youtube.com/perboysen






On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap <buzap@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi folks

>

> I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song =
writing purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording =
environment.

> Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic =
drum set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably =
ok.

> However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience =
whatsoever with drum micing.

>

> My current approach is basically similar to this:

> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog=
.htm

> First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak =
the timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming =
part - I tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit =
mode.

>

> How should I proceed next?

> My current thoughts:

>

> A.

> Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum =
cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on =
e-drums either for funky stuff).

> For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.

>

> B.

> Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into =
drum programming.

>

> With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very =
flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things =
over time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly =
endless...



>

> With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the =
right groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment =
(space, neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.

>

> I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio =
environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as =
possible) is more important than having the perfect drum track.

>

> Would like to hear your experience & advice on this =
subject.

>

> best regards

> Buzap

>








=

--Apple-Mail-2--559408098--

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	<848EBC67-8655-4142-9D89-82CA4D871D4F@glasswing.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 10:01:27 -0800
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
From: Kevin Cheli-Colando 
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I think Rick has already written a very extensive primer on this
subject.  Should be in the archives if those are still working.

I think one of the basic takeaways was use real hi-hat if possible.  I
think Rick said he actually used to get paid to play hi hat over
programmed beats.

But I won't speak any more for Rick and will instead point to the
archives (but I'm not having any luck searching them at this point.)

Kevin

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:44 AM, richard sales  wrote:
> A bottomless pit!
> I use NI Maschine to program and Steven Slate Drums Platinum for sounds.
> Excellent sort of pop rock and roll sounds.  Takes a fair bit of EQ work for
> other styles.
>
> I tried using my old SP12 as a drum controller but the latency was pretty
> noticeable when triggering MIDI notes.  I had to slip all the notes forward
> to compensate for the lag.
>
> Maschine and Slate Drums work great for fairly straight forward stuff.
>
> I do think the best solution is some kind of V / electronic Drums etc
> triggering the MIDI stuff.
>
> One thing I'm thinking about is hiring remote drummers to do tracks on V
> Drums, or deriving MIDI data from their tracks (Trigger, Drumagog) and doing
> drum replacement where needed.  Not sure what a good remote drummer costs,
> though.
>
> I see opportunity here, Mr. R Walker!
>
> I think the new Ableton can derive MIDI from analog now too.  More
> utilitarian bang for the buck.
>
> AS Simeon said, you can also step program.  Kontakt has a good step
> programmer, although I haven't really used it yet - just tinkered a bit.
>
> richard sales
> www.glasswing.com
> www.richardsales.com
> www.hayleysales.com
> www.goodnaturefarms.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements wrote:
>
> I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
>
> There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use
> their midi drum beats as a start.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
>>
>> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
>> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
>> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
>> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
>> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
>> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
>> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
>> faking a live drummer.
>>
>> Greetings from Sweden
>>
>> Per Boysen
>> www.perboysen.com
>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
>> > Hi folks
>> >
>> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song writing
>> > purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording environment.
>> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum
>> > set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
>> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience
>> > whatsoever with drum micing.
>> >
>> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
>> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
>> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the
>> > timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part - I
>> > tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
>> >
>> > How should I proceed next?
>> > My current thoughts:
>> >
>> > A.
>> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum
>> > cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums
>> > either for funky stuff).
>> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
>> >
>> > B.
>> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum
>> > programming.
>> >
>> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very
>> > flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things over
>> > time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
>> >
>> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the right
>> > groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment (space,
>> > neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
>> >
>> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio
>> > environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as possible)
>> > is more important than having the perfect drum track.
>> >
>> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
>> >
>> > best regards
>> > Buzap
>> >
>>
>
>



-- 
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

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	<848EBC67-8655-4142-9D89-82CA4D871D4F@glasswing.com>
	
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:08:09 -0500
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
From: Sylvain Poitras 
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--20cf300512fec8e3bb04d4e9f9f8
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try this:
http://www.livelooping.org/history_concepts/ricks-ramblings/making-drum-programming-hipper/

Sylvain


On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:

> I think Rick has already written a very extensive primer on this
> subject.  Should be in the archives if those are still working.
>
> I think one of the basic takeaways was use real hi-hat if possible.  I
> think Rick said he actually used to get paid to play hi hat over
> programmed beats.
>
> But I won't speak any more for Rick and will instead point to the
> archives (but I'm not having any luck searching them at this point.)
>
> Kevin
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:44 AM, richard sales 
> wrote:
> > A bottomless pit!
> > I use NI Maschine to program and Steven Slate Drums Platinum for sounds.
> > Excellent sort of pop rock and roll sounds.  Takes a fair bit of EQ work
> for
> > other styles.
> >
> > I tried using my old SP12 as a drum controller but the latency was pretty
> > noticeable when triggering MIDI notes.  I had to slip all the notes
> forward
> > to compensate for the lag.
> >
> > Maschine and Slate Drums work great for fairly straight forward stuff.
> >
> > I do think the best solution is some kind of V / electronic Drums etc
> > triggering the MIDI stuff.
> >
> > One thing I'm thinking about is hiring remote drummers to do tracks on V
> > Drums, or deriving MIDI data from their tracks (Trigger, Drumagog) and
> doing
> > drum replacement where needed.  Not sure what a good remote drummer
> costs,
> > though.
> >
> > I see opportunity here, Mr. R Walker!
> >
> > I think the new Ableton can derive MIDI from analog now too.  More
> > utilitarian bang for the buck.
> >
> > AS Simeon said, you can also step program.  Kontakt has a good step
> > programmer, although I haven't really used it yet - just tinkered a bit.
> >
> > richard sales
> > www.glasswing.com
> > www.richardsales.com
> > www.hayleysales.com
> > www.goodnaturefarms.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements wrote:
> >
> > I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.
> >
> > There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can even use
> > their midi drum beats as a start.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
> >>
> >> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" to fake a live
> >> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, then
> >> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, what
> >> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people put so
> >> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just as
> >> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with edgy
> >> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
> >> faking a live drummer.
> >>
> >> Greetings from Sweden
> >>
> >> Per Boysen
> >> www.perboysen.com
> >> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
> >> > Hi folks
> >> >
> >> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums for song
> writing
> >> > purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording
> environment.
> >> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acoustic drum
> >> > set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonably ok.
> >> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no experience
> >> > whatsoever with drum micing.
> >> >
> >> > My current approach is basically similar to this:
> >> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/drum-prog.htm
> >> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I tweak the
> >> > timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consuming part
> - I
> >> > tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode.
> >> >
> >> > How should I proceed next?
> >> > My current thoughts:
> >> >
> >> > A.
> >> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum
> >> > cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on
> e-drums
> >> > either for funky stuff).
> >> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
> >> >
> >> > B.
> >> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum
> >> > programming.
> >> >
> >> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I'm very
> >> > flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change things
> over
> >> > time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly endless...
> >> >
> >> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediately the
> right
> >> > groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording environment
> (space,
> >> > neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.
> >> >
> >> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio
> >> > environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistically as
> possible)
> >> > is more important than having the perfect drum track.
> >> >
> >> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subject.
> >> >
> >> > best regards
> >> > Buzap
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
> form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.
>
> - Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)
>
>

--20cf300512fec8e3bb04d4e9f9f8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Kevin Cheli-Colando <billowhead@gmail.com> wrote:


I think Rick has already written a very exte=
nsive primer on this

subject. =A0Should be in the archives if those are still working.



I think one of the basic takeaways was use real hi-hat if possible. =A0I
think Rick said he actually used to get paid to play hi hat over

programmed beats.



But I won't speak any more for Rick and will instead point to the

archives (but I'm not having any luck searching them at this point.)


Kevin




On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:44 AM, richard sales <richard@glasswing.com> wrote:

> A bottomless pit!

> I use NI Maschine to program and Steven Slate Drums Platinum for sound=
s.

> Excellent sort of pop rock and roll sounds. =A0Takes a fair bit of EQ =
work for

> other styles.

>

> I tried using my old SP12 as a drum controller but the latency was pre=
tty

> noticeable when triggering MIDI notes. =A0I had to slip all the notes =
forward

> to compensate for the lag.

>

> Maschine and Slate Drums work great for fairly straight forward stuff.=


>

> I do think the best solution is some kind of V / electronic Drums etc<=
br>
> triggering the MIDI stuff.

>

> One thing I'm thinking about is hiring remote drummers to do track=
s on V

> Drums, or deriving MIDI data from their tracks (Trigger, Drumagog) and=
 doing

> drum replacement where needed. =A0Not sure what a good remote drummer =
costs,

> though.

>

> I see opportunity here, Mr. R Walker!

>

> I think the new Ableton can derive MIDI from analog now too. =A0More
> utilitarian bang for the buck.

>

> AS Simeon said, you can also step program. =A0Kontakt has a good step<=
br>
> programmer, although I haven't really used it yet - just tinkered =
a bit.

>

> richard sales

> www.glasswing.c=
om

> www.richards=
ales.com

> www.hayleysal=
es.com

> www.goodn=
aturefarms.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Steven Clements wrote:

>

> I recommend Toontracks Superior Drummer.

>

> There's lots you can do for realistic sounding drums and you can e=
ven use

> their midi drum beats as a start.

>

>

>

> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>> You're right that it is "endlessly time consuming" t=
o fake a live

>> drummer. Learning to do the programming right is only step one, th=
en

>> you need to set the sound right and mix it dynamically. Oh man, wh=
at

>> time consuming activities! I'm wondering why so many people pu=
t so

>> much time into faking something when there are loads of other just=
 as

>> cool drumming approaches? Just imagine a crappy 505 or 606 with ed=
gy

>> sound attitude! About a thousand times as easy to make good than
>> faking a live drummer.

>>

>> Greetings from Sweden

>>

>> Per Boysen

>> www.perboys=
en.com

>> htt=
p://www.youtube.com/perboysen

>>

>>

>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Buzap Buzap <buzap@gmx.net> wrote:

>> > Hi folks

>> >

>> > I'd like to lay down somewhat realistic acoustic drums fo=
r song writing

>> > purposes (pop ballads, funk, latin, world) in home recording =
environment.

>> > Currently, I program drums in Logic Pro. I also have an acous=
tic drum

>> > set at work where I can play basic drum grooves that reasonab=
ly ok.

>> > However, I don't have a good sounding kit and have no exp=
erience

>> > whatsoever with drum micing.

>> >

>> > My current approach is basically similar to this:

>> > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/article=
s/drum-prog.htm

>> > First, I lay down basic patterns in Logic Ultrabeat. Then, I =
tweak the

>> > timing in piano roll. Last - and this is the most time consum=
ing part - I

>> > tweak velocities, create ghost notes, rolls in HyperEdit mode=
.

>> >

>> > How should I proceed next?

>> > My current thoughts:

>> >

>> > A.

>> > Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-=
drum

>> > cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like s=
nares on e-drums

>> > either for funky stuff).

>> > For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.

>> >

>> > B.

>> > Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper =
into drum

>> > programming.

>> >

>> > With drum programming, I can get fairly realistic results. I&=
#39;m very

>> > flexible, can start with basic patterns and can refine/change=
 things over

>> > time. However, the process is time consuming & seemingly =
endless...

>> >

>> > With real drum set, there is the beauty of playing immediatel=
y the right

>> > groove with a gut feeling. However, the home recording enviro=
nment (space,

>> > neighbours) and the mic set-up can be tricky.

>> >

>> > I know the best solution is to get a real drummer in a studio=


>> > environment. But laying down stuff quickly (still realistical=
ly as possible)

>> > is more important than having the perfect drum track.

>> >

>> > Would like to hear your experience & advice on this subje=
ct.

>> >

>> > best regards

>> > Buzap

>> >

>>

>

>








--

Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a

form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.<=
br>


- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)







--20cf300512fec8e3bb04d4e9f9f8--

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Buzap Buzap schrieb:
> A.
> Get a real hi-hat machine + snare, set them up with mics. (e-drum cymbals never sound realistic enough for me, don't like snares on e-drums either for funky stuff).
> For the rest, use e-drum kick pedals, pads etc.
>
> B.
> Go the software road (i.e. Superior Drummer) and dive deeper into drum programming.
>   
C.
Get an MPD-style thingie (such as Maschine which some already suggested) 
and use that in conjunction with the B approach.

-- 
http://moinlabs.de
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/moinlabs

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Scott Hansen wrote:
> *Andy-thanks for the mini review-miracle you could sit at a music store 
> and get to test out all the features like that.
> i've never felt that comfortable doing that at any of my local 
> stores!!!! 

Well, it helps that I look like a guy whose been playing
since 1975 ;-)


> when the delaylab came out i was hoping for
> some features-well mainly the delays ability to varispeed...someone on 
> TGP got one right away and posted a review
> of it, and i asked him if it would do it, and he said no. although your 
> comments that some of the delays have the ability
> peaks my interest.

Not varispeed.
There's 2 different ways of simulating the way a tape
delay changes delay time

1) tape speed changes.. true varispeed.. anything "caught in the loop"
   gets shifted in pitch evenly

2) playback head moves. You get some pitch bends in the loop, but the basic pitch
    stays the same.

Out of those two options 1) is the prized effect we love, as also found in BBD
and primitive digital delays.

Now that microprocessors are the thing it's much easier to program version 2),
and that's the option the Vox offers.
( I know this for certain, I've programmed this stuff and the varispeed
  is a real head spinner if you want decent audio quality)

> i just don't get it.

Me neither.

> 
> that said-i'm back to my setup that has a pigtronix echolution and a 
> digitech dl8 -those honestly serve my needs just fine.
> s---

enjoy

andy


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On 2/4/13 10:01 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:
> I think Rick has already written a very extensive primer on this
> subject.  Should be in the archives if those are still working.
I have a column at www.livelooping.org called "Rick's Ramblings",
just musings about live looping and related things.

I posted a column and cited what I'd written earlier about this 
topicboth here
and at tribe.net (back when I used to be very heavily involved with that 
site
before it's owner sabotaged it).

http://www.livelooping.org/history_concepts/ricks-ramblings/making-drum-programming-hipper/

Also, I record and program for people all the time, remotely. Even 
though I'm a drummer,
I find that the inaccuracies of midi (I'll talk about that in a moment) 
make it so that
programmingdrums sound better and more 'realistic' than recording midi 
files on drum pads.
I charge between $100 and $150 per song depending on how long it takes me.
In terms of time, recording drums for a project acoustically costs about 
the same time, with the exception
that I thrown in my own recording studio for free when I do acoustic 
recording.

Sometimes, I actually prefer to program electronic drums instead of play 
acoustic ones because I
want an edgy modern vibe to a track. I actually love analogue drum 
machines and creative digital
sound design in programming (making one's own new percussionsounds).   I 
even like using
old school analogue drum machines that are uber minimalistic and then 
using realdrums to augment.
The first time I ever saw UltraVox in the 70's, their drumplayed kick, 
snare and hi hat against an old
Roland CR-78 drum machine. I was transfixed at how cool and unusual this 
sounded.


Also, to me, there are some drawbacks to using drummers midi trackstaken 
from
real playing situations on electronic drum pads.   It may just be a 
matter of taste but
here aresome of the reasons:

1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. The human ear has the 
ability to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume that are discernable. 
Midi volume is sometimes woefully inadequate in recreating realistic 
drumming that sounds like acoustic drumming for this reason

2) We can shape electronic drum sounds, individually with 
equalizationand with filters (which just another form of 
equilization)but we can only use subtractive equalization (cutoff 
filters)to approximate people hitting things harder or quieter.   Don't 
filter a hi hat hitand make it louder to approximate the loudest sound 
you can make. Reduce it's volume and cut off some of the high end 
frequencies to approximate it when it is hit more quietly. You can use 
additive equalization to by boosting resonance or tightening the "Q" of 
a sound,  but this doesn't sound realistic, unfortunately.

3) Multi-samples and Crossfading are frequently used to try and 
approximate what a drummer doesfor more realism:

Go listen to a Max Roach hi hat solo that lasts for 20 minutes. Think 
about it.    You'd need thousands of individual samples to approximate 
all the sounds he gets out of a cymbal.

Allof these intrinsic problems can be dealt with in creative ways but it 
takes a lot of knowledge to do so.

So that brings us to algorithmic drum programs of which there are 
several on the market.

Honestly,  I think they create really cool sounding 
percussion/drumtracks but they never sound
like a real drum drummingto me.   If you like how they sound, however, 
and I know a lot of people who use
these programs in their solo work, then they are valid.

I also know musicians who use drum recordings from sample libraries and 
then edit them very carefully.
One guy I know, Si Moorehead, makes metal tracks that you could NEVER 
tell were put together only with samples. He's a genius!

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From: Rick Walker 
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        RICK WALKER , GMAIL SAVES 
Subject: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming
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I was responding to the thread on realistic drum programming and
forgot to mention something that might be of interestto people here.

  I teach a course(through Skype) called the 'Rhythm Intensive' that is 
4-8 hours
of private instruction on how to understand the universal principles of
global rhythm so that one can program drums realistically, arrange 
songs, compose or improvise
in real time with any style of music (regardless of whether you've heard 
it before) based ONLY
on rhythmic principles. It is designed specifically to aid people in how 
to program, rhythmically.

I started teaching this course 25 years ago because I realized there was a
serious gap in Rhythmic Instruction in both books (in English) and in 
educational institutions.
Since I was blessed to be able to play, tour and record with some 
incredible master musicians from many different cultures,  I got to test 
out my theories about rhythm and began working on this system that I"ve 
now taught to literally thousands of people.

The genesis of this program came,years ago,when I was playing a lot of 
rhythms on drumset that I had arranged from acoustic hand and finger 
drumming experiences with ethnic drumming traditions,

I became frustrated by the fact that a lot of really good bass players 
(pros with great technique
and lots of musical knowledge) just couldn't seem to find the groove 
with these new rhythms
despite how accomplished they were in other styles.

This fascinated me and I began a really intense analysis of every single 
rhythm I could get my hands on
from other cultures to see if I could ascertain an approach that might 
work for creating bass lines
to drum beats that would feel stylistically appropriate.

The more rhythms I analyzed (and I'm now in the research of the fourth 
volume of my
Global Beats and World Pop Stylesencyclopedia, having only published 
volume one in hand
written form) the more I began to see really simple emergent qualities 
of the ways that guitars, basses, drums, percussion and keyboards worked 
if they were in the 'rhythm section'

I started teaching what I called the Bass Rhythm Intensive.
After teaching about 50 bassists this approach, they kept coming up to 
me and saying,  'if only my guitarist or drummer understood this 
approach it would be so great for our band."    So I widened it
and started teaching other instrumentalists. By now all these years 
later,  I've taught it
to Bassists, Guitarists, Keyboardists, Bowed String Players, Horn 
players, Producers, Arrangers,
Choreographers, Dancers and Vocalists).

It's just a map of how to do things and we all know that 'the map is not 
the territory' but as my intellecuaal mentor, Gregory Bateson once said, 
"there is, however, such a thing as a better map."

>From the feedback I've gotten back from professional and 
non-professional musicians is
that it's a pretty strong approach that always yields musical results.

If anyone is interested, contact me off list and I can tell you more 
about it.



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    I was responding to the thread on realistic drum
      programming and 

      forgot to mention something that might be of
        interest to people here.

          

         I
                                          teach a course
                                            (through Skype) called the 'Rhythm
                                              Intensive' that is 4-8
                                              hours 

                                              of private instruction on
                                              how to understand the universal
                                                principles of 

                                                global
                                                  rhythm so that one can
                                                  program drums realistically,
                                                        arrange songs,
                                                          compose or improvise
                                                          

                                                          in
                                                          real time with
                                                          any style of
                                                          music (regardless
                                                          of whether
                                                          you've heard
                                                          it before)
                                                          based ONLY 

                                                          on
                                                          rhythmic
                                                          principles. 
                                                          It is designed
                                                          specifically
                                                          to aid people
                                                          in how to program, rhythmically.

                                                          

                                                          
                                                          I started
                                                          teaching
                                                          this course 25
                                                          years ago
                                                          because I
                                                          realized there
                                                          was a 

                                                          serious
                                                          gap in Rhythmic
                                                          Instruction in
                                                          both books (in
                                                          English) and
                                                          in educational
                                                          institutions.

                                                          Since I was
                                                          blessed to be
                                                          able to play,
                                                          tour and
                                                          record with
                                                          some incredible

                                                          master
                                                          musicians from
                                                          many different
                                                          cultures,  I
                                                          got to test
                                                          out my
                                                          theories about
                                                          rhythm and
                                                          began working
                                                          on this system
                                                          that I"ve now
                                                          taught to
                                                          literally
                                                          thousands of
                                                          people.   

                                                          

                                                          The genesis of
                                                          this program came,years
                                                          ago,when
                                                          I was
                                                          playing a lot
                                                          of rhythms
                                                          on drumset
                                                          that I had
                                                          arranged from
                                                          acoustic
                                                          hand and
                                                          finger drumming
                                                          experiences
                                                          with ethnic
                                                          drumming
                                                          traditions, 

                                                          

                                                          I became
                                                          frustrated by
                                                          the fact that
                                                          a lot of
                                                          really good
                                                          bass players
                                                          (pros with
                                                          great
                                                          technique 

                                                          and
                                                          lots of
                                                          musical
                                                          knowledge)
                                                          just couldn't
                                                          seem to find
                                                          the groove
                                                          with these new
                                                          rhythms

                                                          despite
                                                          how
                                                          accomplished
                                                          they were in
                                                          other styles.

                                                          

                                                          This fascinated
                                                          me and I began
                                                          a really
                                                          intense
                                                          analysis of
                                                          every single
                                                          rhythm I could
                                                          get my hands
                                                          on 

                                                          from
                                                          other cultures
                                                          to see if I
                                                          could
                                                          ascertain an
                                                          approach that
                                                          might work for
                                                          creating bass
                                                          lines 

                                                          to
                                                          drum beats that
                                                          would feel
                                                          stylistically
                                                          appropriate.

                                                          

                                                          The more rhythms
                                                          I analyzed
                                                          (and I'm now
                                                          in the
                                                          research of the
                                                          fourth volume
                                                          of my 

                                                          Global Beats
                                                          and World Pop
                                                          Styles
                                                          encyclopedia, 
                                                          having only
                                                          published volume
                                                          one in hand 

                                                          written
                                                          form) the more
                                                          I began
                                                          to see really
                                                          simple emergent
                                                          qualities of
                                                          the ways that
                                                          guitars,
                                                          basses, drums,
                                                          percussion and
                                                          keyboards
                                                          worked if they
                                                          were in the
                                                          'rhythm
                                                          section'

                                                          

                                                          I started
                                                          teaching what
                                                          I called the
                                                          Bass Rhythm
                                                          Intensive.

                                                          After teaching
                                                          about 50
                                                          bassists this
                                                          approach, they
                                                          kept
                                                          coming up to
                                                          me and
                                                          saying,  'if
                                                          only my
                                                          guitarist or
                                                          drummer
                                                          understood
                                                          this approach
                                                          it would be so
                                                          great for our
                                                          band."    So I
                                                          widened it 

                                                          and
                                                          started
                                                          teaching other
                                                          instrumentalists.    
                                                          By now all
                                                          these years
                                                          later,  I've
                                                          taught it 

                                                          to
                                                          Bassists,
                                                          Guitarists,
                                                          Keyboardists,
                                                          Bowed String
                                                          Players, Horn
                                                          players,
                                                          Producers,
                                                          Arrangers, 

                                                          Choreographers,
                                                          Dancers and
                                                          Vocalists).

                                                          

                                                          It's just a
                                                          map of how to
                                                          do things and
                                                          we all know
                                                          that 'the map
                                                          is not the
                                                          territory' but
                                                          as my
                                                          intellecuaal
                                                          mentor,
                                                          Gregory
                                                          Bateson once
                                                          said, "there
                                                          is, however,
                                                          such a thing
                                                          as a better
                                                          map."

                                                          

                                                          From
                                                          the feedback
                                                          I've gotten back
                                                          from
                                                          professional
                                                          and non-professional
                                                          musicians is 

                                                          that it's a
                                                          pretty strong
                                                          approach that
                                                          always yields
                                                          musical
                                                          results.

                                                          

                                                          If anyone is
                                                          interested,
                                                          contact me off
                                                          list and I
                                                          can tell you
                                                          more about it.

                                                          

                                                          

                                                          
  


--------------090602090702070001080005--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 00:25:22 2013
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 01:25:21 +0100
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Subject: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming
From: Per Boysen 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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I'm a lucky owner of a hand written manuscript of this course, dating
2003 pre Skype. :-)  And I noticed when checking out Rick's group
master classes in 2004 and 2008 that my paper was only a fragment of
the full treat. One thing I learned from it is that there are
different ways to learn a non 4/4 rhythm by heart; breaking down a bar
into a number of sub patterns that you can follow by instinct without
having to count. Incredibly helpful.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Rick Walker  wrote:
> I was responding to the thread on realistic drum programming and
> forgot to mention something that might be of interest to people here.
>
>  I teach a course (through Skype) called the 'Rhythm Intensive' that is 4-8
> hours
> of private instruction on how to understand the universal principles of
> global rhythm so that one can program drums realistically, arrange songs,
> compose or improvise
> in real time with any style of music (regardless of whether you've heard it
> before) based ONLY
> on rhythmic principles.  It is designed specifically to aid people in how to
> program, rhythmically.
>
> I started teaching this course 25 years ago because I realized there was a
> serious gap in Rhythmic Instruction in both books (in English) and in
> educational institutions.
> Since I was blessed to be able to play, tour and record with some incredible
> master musicians from many different cultures,  I got to test out my
> theories about rhythm and began working on this system that I"ve now taught
> to literally thousands of people.
>
> The genesis of this program came,years ago,when I was playing a lot of
> rhythms on drumset that I had arranged from acoustic hand and finger
> drumming experiences with ethnic drumming traditions,
>
> I became frustrated by the fact that a lot of really good bass players (pros
> with great technique
> and lots of musical knowledge) just couldn't seem to find the groove with
> these new rhythms
> despite how accomplished they were in other styles.
>
> This fascinated me and I began a really intense analysis of every single
> rhythm I could get my hands on
> from other cultures to see if I could ascertain an approach that might work
> for creating bass lines
> to drum beats that would feel stylistically appropriate.
>
> The more rhythms I analyzed (and I'm now in the research of the fourth
> volume of my
> Global Beats and World Pop Styles encyclopedia,  having only published
> volume one in hand
> written form) the more I began to see really simple emergent qualities of
> the ways that guitars, basses, drums, percussion and keyboards worked if
> they were in the 'rhythm section'
>
> I started teaching what I called the Bass Rhythm Intensive.
> After teaching about 50 bassists this approach, they kept coming up to me
> and saying,  'if only my guitarist or drummer understood this approach it
> would be so great for our band."    So I widened it
> and started teaching other instrumentalists.     By now all these years
> later,  I've taught it
> to Bassists, Guitarists, Keyboardists, Bowed String Players, Horn players,
> Producers, Arrangers,
> Choreographers, Dancers and Vocalists).
>
> It's just a map of how to do things and we all know that 'the map is not the
> territory' but as my intellecuaal mentor, Gregory Bateson once said, "there
> is, however, such a thing as a better map."
>
> From the feedback I've gotten back from professional and non-professional
> musicians is
> that it's a pretty strong approach that always yields musical results.
>
> If anyone is interested, contact me off list and I can tell you more about
> it.
>
>

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Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 16:29:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Luis Angulo 
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Subject: Re: Zoe Keating in NY Times article.@borisfx.com
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I think the problem is that people think we musicans are really just "playi=
ng"=0Athis aint gonna happen to no plumber,otherwise human waste is gonna o=
verflow=0A=0A=0A=A0=0Ahttp://www.myspace.com/luisangulocom=0A=0A=0A________=
________________________=0A From: Daniel Thomas =0AT=
o: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com =0ASent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 =
10:16 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zoe Keating in NY Times article.@borisfx.com=0A =0A=
=0Awhere I play,=A0weekly, =A0couldn't possibly afford to pay more.........=
....for them, =A0it's a=A0labor=A0of love to have Jazz at their establishme=
nt and they are also struggling=0A>>financially.=0A>>=0A=0AI think perhaps =
I offended you, Rick. =A0It was not at all my intention-- =A0if I did , I a=
pologize. =A0Surely you know, my brother, bandmate and friend, that you hav=
e my total respect.=0A=0AI hope that all members of this list are playing m=
usic for the love of it-- =A0and certainly, we should all invest our energi=
es in the musics that we are drawn to whether or not there is a dime to be =
found in it. =A0But-- =A0playing a low comp gig for the love of it need not=
 gut the financial motive in professional musicianship. =A0=0A=0AImagine if=
 plumbers or electricians took such a stance. =A0Presumably, many in the tr=
ades are drawn to the work as a labor of love. =A0They may engage all kinds=
 of low compensation projects for this reason. =A0But that does not mean th=
at they run their bank accounts as a labor of love. =A0Finance is a labor o=
f self-discipline. =A0This discipline which fosters self-respect, professio=
nal credibility and responsibility (as in- the Ability to Respond to challe=
nges).=A0=0A=0AYes, I have a corporate media production gig for which I am =
very grateful -- it has been utterly necessary for my families well being. =
=A0 That said, indie music performance and production remains a substantial=
 portion of my monthly income. =A0More than 25% of my income in 2012 came f=
rom reasonably compensated entertainment industry gigs that have nothing wh=
at so ever to do with my Silicon Valley gig. =A0Granted -much of the work c=
omes from outside California, but its not like I am standing on the sidelin=
es of the music business making flippant comments about the plight of being=
 an artist. =A0=0A=0AIt's a tough nut to crack and I'm not wild about it, t=
o be honest.=0A=0ANo disrespect meant Rick, but you seriously can't get gig=
s that make=A0you more than $50 in Santa Cruz? =A0=0A=0A=A0a "headline" or =
co-bill at the Starry Plough or Don Quixote's is a door deal, with a deduct=
ion for the club's overhead, etc., and they like to keep the ticket prices =
down to get more people in the door to buy beer - and of course, they don't=
 offer the entertainers a share of the bar take.=0A=0A=0A=0AWhile playing i=
n Danjuma Adamu's african funk band, Onola,(2008-2011) I managed the bookin=
gs. =A0When I joined the group we =A0were earning a dismal $25 per man per =
night on average and playing out about 7 times per month! =A0=A0I guess you=
 could say- =A0I really love African music. :) =A0 =A0But, I also really lo=
ve artists and I believe we have inherent value that must be articulated an=
d defended if it is ever to be recognized and compensated. =A0=0A=0AFor the=
se reasons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola. =A0The band agr=
eed to a minimum income standard to which we would all make ourselves avail=
able as a top priority. =A0Anything beneath this standard required me to ge=
t buy in from band members before committing. =A0But, if the gig met or bea=
t the standard, I was free to book and presume flexible availability of all=
 band members. =A0With this agreement in place, we began saying no to gigs =
that were beneath the standard. =A0Where labor of love factors prevailed, w=
e had a process by which to make exceptions.. =A0and we certainly did so wh=
en it was good for the art, the band, or the community--but we I did not al=
low this to replace the standard valuation for our band. =A0=0A=0AWith this=
 approach, =A0our band compensation increased to >$100 per man /gig on aver=
age in less than 3 months. =A0 In addition to this, our band leader began e=
arning a band leaders cut above and beyond the base line comp for the band =
members. =A0And, we were able to shave ten percent off of every gig for the=
 band fund which facilitated future bookings and promotions of a similar ca=
liber.=0A=0AOf course, the approach did reduce =A0the number of times we pl=
ayed out each month-- to about once a week. =A0But, we made more money on t=
he whole, worked less, and enjoyed higher quality gigs-- many in the very s=
ame venues (DXs, Fernwood, Moes, etc). =A0=0A=0AIn order to make it all wor=
k, we had to take more out of town gigs (Big Sur, Monterey, San Fran, etc.)=
 =A0and,=A0most importantly we had to hew closely to what our clients wante=
d=A0(accessible Reggae and Funk .. Less african diaspora percussion jamming=
. ) But without a doubt, when we started saying no, we stopped getting call=
s for low ball gigs and got more calls for reasonably compensated gigs. =A0=
We even had success getting venues to increase our compensation by negotiat=
ing a commitment to increase compensation as we increased attendance / bar =
sales. One venue in the tiny community of Big Sur doubled our pay over the =
course of two months under such a negotiation! =A0Though Onola is no more, =
that particular venue still calls me =A0looking for "another act of similar=
 caliber." =A0=A0=0A=0A=0AArtists! =A0You are worthy of compensation and th=
e credibility=A0that=A0goes with it! =A0The price of Artistry need not be=
=A0suffering.=A0 =A0=A0=0A:)=0A=0Awith genuine appreciation for the many gr=
eat minds and artists on this list.=A0=0A=0ADaniel Thomas=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=
www.danielshanethomas.com=0A=0AOn Jan 30, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Rick Walker  wrote:=0A=0AOn 1/30/2013 12:24 PM, Daniel Thomas wrote:=
=0A>=0A>Local musicians cannot do all that much about fat cat greed. But we=
 can stop playing out for dirt wages. =A0No pearls before swine.=0A>>I real=
ly agree with you on this, Daniel, =A0but as someone who's still out there =
in the trenches trying to make a living=0A>wage as a performing musician (w=
ith a small amount from the dwindling number or people who pay to take musi=
c lessons)=0A>there are very, very few decent paying gigs any more.=0A>=0A>=
In the 80's, =A0it was a point of pride to me not to take less that =A0a co=
uple of hundred bucks for a gig.=0A>In 2012, =A0=A0I had one gig that paid =
$60............all others were paid less than that.=0A>=0A>I am really inte=
rested in playing jazz (one of the historically worst paying forms of music=
 there is, admittedly, =A0but also=0A>representing one of the few remaining=
 ways of getting in front of an audience where, ostensibly, other gigs=0A>a=
nd potential students and studio work can be generated).=0A>=0A>In our area=
 the places who pay for jazz musicians to play with offer tips and a meal o=
r up to $30 and a meal.=0A>I'm struggling to find out some way to keep livi=
ng doing what I've done professionally for=0A>the last 35 straight years so=
 I've elected to take those low paying gigs.=0A>=0A>There are still higher =
paying gigs (in the $100/person range) in Monterey and Carmel, but there ar=
e very, very few of=0A>them and the people who have those gigs are jealousl=
y holding onto them. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Wedding, Parties and Bars that have=0A>=
constant, employable live music have just dwindled to very, very little.=0A=
>=0A>But as unfair as the sub-liveable wages are, the =A0restaurant where I=
 play, weekly, =A0couldn't possibly afford to pay more.............for them=
, =A0it's a labor=0A>of love to have Jazz at their establishment and they a=
re also struggling financially.=0A>=0A>So, =A0I'm with you but at this poin=
t where we live, =A0I wouldn't play ever in public if I insisted on a livea=
ble wage.=0A>=0A>It's a tough nut to crack and I'm not wild about it, to be=
 honest.=0A>=0A>respectfully, =A0=A0Rick=0A>=0A>
---795196629-1589793089-1360024158=:31456
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I think the problem i=
s that people think we musicans are really just "playing"
this aint gonn=
a happen to no plumber,otherwise human waste is gonna overflow

 
http://www.myspace.com/luisanguloc=
om
  
 
 
  
  From: Daniel Thomas <danielthomas4@mac.com>
 To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com  Sent: Thursday, January =
31, 2013 10:16 PM
 Subject:=
 Re: Zoe
 Keating in NY Times article.@borisfx.com
  
 
where I play, weekly,  couldn't possibly afford to pay mor=
e.............for them,  it's a labor of love to have Jazz a=
t their establishment and they are also struggling
financially.

I think perhaps I offended you, Rick. &=
nbsp;It was not at all my intention--  if I did , I apologize.  S=
urely you know, my brother, bandmate and friend, that you have my total res=
pect.

I hope that all members of this list ar=
e playing music for the love of it--  and certainly, we should all inv=
est our energies in the musics that we are drawn to whether or not there is=
 a dime to be found in it.  But--  playing a low comp gig for the=
 love of it need not gut the financial motive in professional
 musicianship.  

Imagine if plumbers or elect=
ricians took such a stance.  Presumably, many in the trades are drawn =
to the work as a labor of love.  They may engage all kinds of low comp=
ensation projects for this reason.  But that does not mean that they r=
un their bank accounts as a labor of love.  Finance is a labor of self=
-discipline.  This discipline which fosters self-respect, professional=
 credibility and responsibility (as in- the Ability to Respond to challenge=
s). 

Yes, I have a corporate media prod=
uction gig for which I am very grateful -- it has been utterly necessary fo=
r my families well being.   That said, indie music performance and pro=
duction remains a substantial portion of my monthly income.  More than=
 25% of my income in 2012 came from reasonably compensated entertainment in=
dustry gigs that have nothing what so ever to do with my Silicon
 Valley gig.  Granted -much of the work comes from outside California,=
 but its not like I am standing on the sidelines of the music business maki=
ng flippant comments about the plight of being an artist.  
=

It's a t=
ough nut to crack and I'm not wild about it, to be honest.

No disrespect meant Rick, but you se=
riously can't get gigs that make you more than $50 in Santa Cruz? &nbs=
p;

 a "headline" or co-bill =
at the Starry Plough or Don Quixote's is a door deal, with a deduction for =
the club's overhead, etc., and they like to keep the ticket prices down to =
get more people in the door to buy beer - and of course, they don't offer t=
he entertainers a share of the bar take.


While playing in Danjuma Adamu's african funk band, Onola,(2008-2011=
)
 I managed the bookings.  When I joined the group we  were earnin=
g a dismal $25 per man per night on average and playing out about 7 times p=
er month!   I guess you could say-  I really love African mu=
sic. :)    But, I also really love artists and I believe we have =
inherent value that must be articulated and defended if it is ever to be re=
cognized and compensated.  

For these reasons=
, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola.  The band agreed to =
a minimum income standard to which we would all make ourselves available as=
 a top priority.  Anything beneath this standard required me to get bu=
y in from band members before committing.  But, if the gig met or beat=
 the standard, I was free to book and presume flexible availability of all =
band members.  With this agreement in place, we began saying no to gig=
s that were beneath the standard.  Where labor of love factors
 prevailed, we had a process by which to make exceptions..  and we cer=
tainly did so when it was good for the art, the band, or the community--but=
 we I did not allow this to replace the standard valuation for our band. &n=
bsp;

With this approach,  our band compensati=
on increased to >$100 per man /gig on average in less than 3 months. &nb=
sp; In addition to this, our band leader began earning a band leaders cut a=
bove and beyond the base line comp for the band members.  And, we were=
 able to shave ten percent off of every gig for the band fund which facilit=
ated future bookings and promotions of a similar caliber.

Of course, the approach did reduce  the number of times we pla=
yed out each month-- to about once a week.  But, we made more money on=
 the whole, worked less, and enjoyed higher quality gigs-- many in the very=
 same venues (DXs, Fernwood, Moes, etc).
  

In order to make it all work, we had to ta=
ke more out of town gigs (Big Sur, Monterey, San Fran, etc.)  and,&nbs=
p;most importantly we had to hew closely to what our clients wanted (accessible Reggae and Funk .. Less african diaspora percussion=
 jamming. ) But without a doubt, when we started saying no, we stopped gett=
ing calls for low ball gigs and got more calls for reasonably compensated g=
igs.  We even had success getting venues to increase our compens=
ation by negotiating a commitment to increase compensation as we increased =
attendance / bar sales. One venue in the tiny community of Big Sur =
doubled our pay over the course of two months under such a negotiation! &nb=
sp;Though Onola is no more, that particular venue still calls me  look=
ing for "another act of similar caliber."   

=


Artists!
  You are worthy of compensation and the credibility that go=
es with it!  The price of Artistry need not be suffering.    
:)

with genu=
ine appreciation for the many great minds and artists on this list. 

Daniel Thomas






On Jan 30, 2013, =
at 4:52 PM, Rick Walker <looppool@=
cruzio.com> wrote:

On 1/30/2013 12:24 PM, Daniel Thomas wrot=
e:
Local musicians cannot do all that much about fat cat greed.=
 But we can stop playing out for dirt wages.  No pearls before swine.<=
br>
I really agree with you on this, Daniel,  but as someo=
ne who's still out there in the trenches trying to make a living
wage as=
 a performing musician (with a small amount from the dwindling number or pe=
ople who pay to take music lessons)
there are very, very few decent payi=
ng gigs any more.

In the 80's,  it was a point of pride to me n=
ot to take less that  a couple of hundred bucks for a gig.
In 2012,=
   I had one gig that paid $60............all others were paid le=
ss than that.

I am really interested in playing jazz (one of the his=
torically worst paying forms of music there is, admittedly,  but also<=
br>representing one of the few remaining ways of getting in front of an aud=
ience where, ostensibly, other gigs
and potential students and
 studio work can be generated).

In our area the places who pay for j=
azz musicians to play with offer tips and a meal or up to $30 and a meal.I'm struggling to find out some way to keep living doing what I've done p=
rofessionally for
the last 35 straight years so I've elected to take tho=
se low paying gigs.

There are still higher paying gigs (in the $100/=
person range) in Monterey and Carmel, but there are very, very few of
th=
em and the people who have those gigs are jealously holding onto them. &nbs=
p;    Wedding, Parties and Bars that have
constant, =
employable live music have just dwindled to very, very little.

But a=
s unfair as the sub-liveable wages are, the  restaurant where I play, =
weekly,  couldn't possibly afford to pay more.............for them, &n=
bsp;it's a labor
of love to have Jazz at their establishment and they ar=
e also struggling financially.

So,  I'm with you but at
 this point where we live,  I wouldn't play ever in public if I insist=
ed on a liveable wage.

It's a tough nut to crack and I'm not wild ab=
out it, to be honest.

respectfully,   Rick




 
 
  

---795196629-1589793089-1360024158=:31456--

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Message-ID: <1360027780.90932.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 17:29:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Luis Angulo 
Reply-To: Luis Angulo 
Subject: Re: getting paid
To: "Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com" 
In-Reply-To: <1359685970.51242.YahooMailClassic@web84518.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
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--506312955-1941475670-1360027780=:90932
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wow...i guess im really lucky to be here...=0A=0A=0A=A0=0Ahttp://www.myspac=
e.com/luisangulocom=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Tim M=
ungenast =0ATo: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com=
 =0ASent: Friday, February 1, 2013 3:32 AM=0ASubject: Re: getting paid=0A =
=0A=0A=0AThis is all good stuff but my psych/jam power trio has never made =
more than $40 a gig to split 3 ways, with 2 exceptions over the past 21 yea=
rs: 2 very fun, very lucrative nights playing a Halloween horror theme park=
 in 40-degree weather. =0A=0AGenerally, the money thing is almost too embar=
rassing to talk about, but when I think about how many other good Boston ba=
nds play to almost-empty rooms, I realize I am in good company.=0A=0A=0A=0A=
--- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans  wrote:=0A=0A=0A>From: Da=
vid Gans =0A>Subject: getting paid=0A>To: Loopers-Delight=
@loopers-delight.com=0A>Cc: "David Gans" =0A>Date: Thursd=
ay, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 P=
M, Daniel Thomas  wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>playing a low co=
mp gig for the love of it need not gut the financial motive in professional=
 musicianship. =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>I agree. I do lots of gigs for things other t=
han money. The farmers' market is not good money, but being part of that he=
althy movement is important to me, and I enjoy having a four-hour block of =
time in which I can do anything I want.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>>=0A>>For these reas=
ons, I took on the booking responsibility for Onola. =A0The band agreed to =
a minimum income standard to which we would all make ourselves available as=
 a top priority. =A0Anything beneath this standard required me to get buy i=
n from band members before committing. =A0But, if the gig met or beat the s=
tandard, I was free to book and presume flexible availability of all band m=
embers. =A0With this agreement in place, we began saying no to gigs that we=
re beneath the standard. =A0Where labor of love factors prevailed, we had a=
 process by which to make exceptions.. =A0and we certainly did so when it w=
as good for the art, the band, or the community--but we I did not allow thi=
s to replace the standard valuation for our band. =A0=0A>=0A>=0A>I'm in a b=
and now with a guy who is much more hard-nosed about money than I am. We ha=
ve been good for each other's attitudes: we have said no to some gigs I mig=
ht otherwise have done, and I have gotten him to say yes to a few gigs that=
 had other than financial merit.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>With this appro=
ach, =A0our band compensation increased to >$100 per man /gig on average in=
 less than 3 months. =A0 In addition to this, our band leader began earning=
 a band leaders cut above and beyond the base line comp for the band member=
s. =A0And, we were able to shave ten percent off of every gig for the band =
fund which facilitated future bookings and promotions of a similar caliber.=
=0A>=0A>=0A>Wise!!=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>D=
avid Gans - david@trufun.com or david@gdhour.com=0A>Blog: =A0http://cloudsu=
rfing.gdhour.com=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> 
--506312955-1941475670-1360027780=:90932
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


wow...i guess im real=
ly lucky to be here...
 
htt=
p://www.myspace.com/luisangulocom
  
 
 
  
  From: Tim Mungenast <tmungenast@veriz=
on.net>
 To: Loopers=
-Delight@loopers-delight.com 
 Sen=
t: Friday, February 1, 2013 3:32 AM
 Subject: Re: getting paid
  
 
<=
div id=3D"yiv837603796">

This is all good stuff but my p=
sych/jam power trio has never made more than $40 a gig to split 3 ways, wit=
h 2 exceptions over the past 21 years: 2 very fun, very lucrative nights pl=
aying a Halloween horror theme park in 40-degree weather. 

Generally=
, the money thing is almost too embarrassing to talk about, but when I thin=
k about how many other good Boston bands play to almost-empty rooms, I real=
ize I am in good company.



--- On Thu, 1/31/13, David Gans=
 <david@trufun.com> wrote:

From=
: David Gans <david@trufun.com>
Subject: getting paid
To: Loope=
rs-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Cc: "David Gans" <david@trufun.com>=

Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 4:54 PM


On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Daniel Thomas <danielthomas4@mac.com> wrote:


=

playing=
 a low comp gig for the love of it need not gut the financial motive in pro=
fessional musicianship.  

I ag=
ree. I do lots of gigs for things other than money. The farmers' market is =
not good money, but being part of that healthy movement is important to me,=
 and I enjoy having a four-hour block of time in which I can do anything I =
want.


For these reasons, I=
 took on the booking responsibility for Onola.  The band agreed to a m=
inimum income
 standard to which we would all make ourselves available as a top priority.=
  Anything beneath this standard required me to get buy in from band m=
embers before committing.  But, if the gig met or beat the standard, I=
 was free to book and presume flexible availability of all band members. &n=
bsp;With this agreement in place, we began saying no to gigs that were bene=
ath the standard.  Where labor of love factors prevailed, we had a pro=
cess by which to make exceptions..  and we certainly did so when it wa=
s good for the art, the band, or the community--but we I did not allow this=
 to replace the standard valuation for our band.  
=


I'm in a band now with a guy who is m=
uch more hard-nosed about money than I am. We have been good for each other=
's attitudes: we have said no to some gigs I might otherwise have
 done, and I have gotten him to say yes to a few gigs that had other than f=
inancial merit.



=

With this approach,  our band compensation increased to >$100 =
per man /gig on average in less than 3 months.   In addition to this, =
our band leader began earning a band leaders cut above and beyond the base =
line comp for the band members.  And, we were able to shave ten percen=
t off of every gig for the band fund which facilitated future bookings and =
promotions of a similar caliber.
=


Wise!!









 
 
  
=

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From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 02:00:07 2013
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From: William Walker 
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Subject: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 18:00:00 -0800
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  Rick understands rhythm like few people, has studied and transcribed  
african and other world rhythms like few westerners, and is a  
stylistic chameleon capable of playing  drum or percussion kit in any  
genre imaginable. Having played with him for 30+ years I feel very  
lucky to have had his mastery  of the groove influence me, and help me  
become a better musician.
  Bill



From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 02:08:54 2013
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From: todd reynolds 
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 21:02:45 -0500
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Subject: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming
To: "Looper's Delight" 
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I'd do that course with you any day of the week.


On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 PM, William Walker wrot=
e:

>  Rick understands rhythm like few people, has studied and transcribed
> african and other world rhythms like few westerners, and is a stylistic
> chameleon capable of playing  drum or percussion kit in any genre
> imaginable. Having played with him for 30+ years I feel very lucky to hav=
e
> had his mastery  of the groove influence me, and help me become a better
> musician.
>  Bill
>
>
>
>


--=20
call me at 917.576.6166
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=95 *The Best Classical Music of the Year, 2011* -
Amazon.com

=95 Outerborough, Todd Reynolds' solo double CD is now available wherever
music is sold. Here's a direct link to Amazon, however!



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
http://toddreynolds.com
http://twitter.com/digifiddler
http://mymicrolife.tumblr.com
http://myspace.com/toddreynoldsmusic
http://blog.toddreynolds.com
http://facebook.com/toddreynolds
http://reverbnation.com/toddreynolds

need me right away?  Call or text me at 917.576.6166

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I'd do that course with you any day of the week. =A0


On Mon, F=
eb 4, 2013 at 9:00 PM, William Walker <billwalker@baymoon.com>=
 wrote:



=A0Rick understands rhythm like few people, =
has studied and transcribed african and other world rhythms like few wester=
ners, and is a stylistic chameleon capable of playing =A0drum or percussion=
 kit in any genre imaginable. Having played with him for 30+ years I feel v=
ery lucky to have had his mastery =A0of the groove influence me, and help m=
e become a better musician.



=A0Bill











-- 
call me=
 at 917.576.6166
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=95 The Best =
Classical Music of=A0the Year, 2011 - Amazon.com



=95=A0Outerborough, Todd Reynolds' solo double CD is now avail=
able wherever music is sold. Here's a direct link to Amazon, however!=A0=


need me right away? =A0Call or text m=
e at 917.576.6166






--bcaec553fde0755ba804d4f09df6--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 02:11:29 2013
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From: Philip Clevenger 
Subject: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 18:11:26 -0800
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Prolly me too. Love more details...

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 4, 2013, at 6:02 PM, todd reynolds  wrote:

> I'd do that course with you any day of the week. =20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 PM, William Walker  wr=
ote:
>>  Rick understands rhythm like few people, has studied and transcribed afr=
ican and other world rhythms like few westerners, and is a stylistic chamele=
on capable of playing  drum or percussion kit in any genre imaginable. Havin=
g played with him for 30+ years I feel very lucky to have had his mastery  o=
f the groove influence me, and help me become a better musician.
>>  Bill
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> call me at 917.576.6166
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =E2=80=A2 The Best Classical Music of the Year, 2011 - Amazon.com
>=20
> =E2=80=A2 Outerborough, Todd Reynolds' solo double CD is now available whe=
rever music is sold. Here's a direct link to Amazon, however!=20
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> http://toddreynolds.com
> http://twitter.com/digifiddler
> http://mymicrolife.tumblr.com
> http://myspace.com/toddreynoldsmusic
> http://blog.toddreynolds.com
> http://facebook.com/toddreynolds
> http://reverbnation.com/toddreynolds
>=20
> need me right away?  Call or text me at 917.576.6166
>=20
>=20

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Prolly me too. Love more details...
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 4, 2013, at 6:02 PM, todd reyn=
olds <toddreyn@gmail.com> wr=
ote:

I'd do tha=
t course with you any day of the week.  


On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 9:00 PM, William=
 Walker <billwalker@baymoon.com> wrote:



 Rick understands rhythm like few people,=
 has studied and transcribed african and other world rhythms like few wester=
ners, and is a stylistic chameleon capable of playing  drum or percussi=
on kit in any genre imaginable. Having played with him for 30+ years I feel v=
ery lucky to have had his mastery  of the groove influence me, and help=
 me become a better musician.



 Bill











-- 
call me a=
t 917.576.6166
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=E2=80=A2 The Best Cl=
assical Music of the Year, 2011 - Amazon.com
=

--Apple-Mail-301B4A3F-9F6A-4227-AD5B-CCBAD03E0A8C--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 02:18:35 2013
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From: Grant 
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There is a program called "Jamstix" and I have hoped it might someday solve this problem. I've been updating since it first appeared but have yet to really understand or master it. It has many drum samples which are probably useable and I also use it driving a Roland TD-20 head via MIDI. My trouble is time and I have spent precious little of it trying to learn how it works (hoping to eventually but you know how that goes). Anyway, it does seem like a cool approach.


From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 05:25:39 2013
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Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 23:23:39 -0500
To: DrTVideo@egroups.com
From: "Emile Tobenfeld (a.k.a Dr. T)" 
Subject: Doctor T in February and March
Cc: eyecandy@egroups.com, boss-improv@topica.com, iotacenter@egroups.com,
 Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com, atari-midi@yahoogroups.com,
 Experimental Film Discussion List 
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Hi folks,

I've got a very busy February and two very special events in March.

February 16 is my next "Moving with the Light" Concert and Dance Jam 
at 119 Gallery in Lowell, with music by Eric Crawley, Harpejji, and 
Dave Bryant, keyboards and YOU -- movement --  All styles and skill 
levels welcome. Moving with the Light is a monthly event at which 
improvised movement, music, and video interact as equals -- each 
responding to and respectful of the others.

The musicians will play improvised music suitable for contact 
improvisation and other forms of gentle movement, while I improvise 
imagery and all three of us react to the dancers as well as to each 
other.

February 17 is my next Visual Music Live event at Outpost 186 in 
Cambridge, featuring The OUTPOST Band
Doctor T -- Video mixing
Eric Zinman --Drums (that's right drums, not piano)
Andrea Pensado -- Electronics and voice
Michael Bloom  -- Table Guitar and bouzouki
Rick Scott -- Keyboard

Improvisation to the outer limits. Expect the unexpected-:)

Feb 22 - 24 is Walter Wright's renowned XFest at 119 gallery -- an 
event not to be missed by fans of improvised music and media. I'll be 
performing during 3 or 4 of the Friday evening sets, and there will 
be movement by Andrew Duncan. and other dancers. Andrew blew my mind 
with his dancing to  my video at the last "Moving with the Light" 
event.

http://www.119gallery.org/?p=9518

March 9 brings Visual Music Live to Outpost 186, with old friend and 
very special guest David Rothenberg

Doctor T video mixing

featuring guest artist

David Rothenberg -- Nature Samples, Laptop, and Clarinet

and regular collaborators

Eric Crawley -- harpejji and Electronics
Tom Mungenast -- Electric Guitar, Electric Sitar, and Electronics

ECM recording artist David Rothenberg has performed and recorded on 
clarinet with Jan Bang, Scanner, Glen Velez, Karl Berger, Peter 
Gabriel, Ray Phiri, and the Karnataka College of Percussion.  He has 
twelve CDs out under his own name, including "On the Cliffs of the 
Heart," named one of the top ten releases of 1995 by Jazziz magazine 
and "One Dark Night I Left My Silent House,"  a duet album with 
pianist Marilyn Crispell, called "une petite miracle" by Le Monde and 
named by The Village Voice one of the ten best CDs of 2010. 
 Rothenberg is the author of Why Birds Sing, book and CD, published 
in seven languages and the subject of a BBC television documentary. 
He is also the author of numerous other books on music, art, and 
nature, including Thousand Mile Song, about making music with whales, 
and Survival of the Beautiful, about aesthetics in evolution.  Last 
spring he released a book and CD called Bug Music, featuring the 
sounds of the entomological world.  You'll hear some of them tonight.

I will also have a solo show of my photography and video art at 119 
gallery, Mar 19 - Apr 13. The show will feature sumptuous 22 x 12 
prints from my Swirlies sequence. Some images from this sequence can 
be seen at 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22231918@N06/sets/72157626713121989/

-- 
"I rang a silent bell ..."  -- Robert Hunter
"... cast your dancing spell my way, I promise to go under it" -- Bob Dylan

My photography can be viewed at 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22231918@N06/collections/72157603627170351/




From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 06:31:34 2013
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From: mark francombe 
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You guys are amazing! I have a small request, Can Rick sometime at his
leisure pick up one (or two) of his weird ethnic drum things, and drag
them across the yard to Bills garage, just about the same time as Bill
starts one of his slippy slidey loopy solos?

a vid with both bro's... Nice...

Sent from my (advertisement removed)

On 5 Feb 2013, at 03:00, William Walker  wrote:

> Rick understands rhythm like few people, has studied and transcribed afri=
can and other world rhythms like few westerners, and is a stylistic chamele=
on capable of playing  drum or percussion kit in any genre imaginable. Havi=
ng played with him for 30+ years I feel very lucky to have had his mastery =
 of the groove influence me, and help me become a better musician.
> Bill
>
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 07:54:11 2013
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Thanks for all the postings.

I guess "a bottemless pit" sums it all :-)

One thing nobody has come up with: pen & paper.
Actually, I might try jotting down some drum patterns & fills on paper first.

Some comments on your posts:
- I'm well aware of Rick's drum programming article (found it in a drummer forum). Esp his advice on keeping hihat volume low in the mix was great.

- Personally, I enjoy playing acoustic drums and that's what I hear in my head (mostly). So I want to lay down realistic acoustic drum tracks.

- Friends who use Superior Drummer produce pretty realistic cymbal sounds (a lot of software doesn't).

- When I play real hihat, there are so many endless sounds (where I hit, how I use the pedal..)... Impossible to get them all down with programming.

thanks all
Buzap

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 07:58:06 2013
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Hi Rick

Very intriguing!

With all your experience and the services you provide - you should definitely advertise more actively what you offer (I don't see any references on your web page...).

You should have regular a column in a drum/beat magazine!

And you should definitely be making ++$$$ ! :-)

best regards
Buzap

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Hi folks

since we've opened up the topic of drum programming:
Is there any practical advantage of using MPD-style drum pads vs using midi keyboard for punching down drum patterns?
(I don't even want to get started on Piezo pads - think Zendrum, Futureman...).

Also, while we're at it:
Do you think you could program straight 1/16 hi-hats, then record a midi foot pedal sort of as automation, simulating hihat pedal?

best regards
Buzap

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Rick Walker wrote:
 
> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. 

As I understand it there's also limits to timing accuracy
and the need to play along to a click track when recording.


andy

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 09:27:07 2013
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Hi Andy

> As I understand it there's also limits to timing accuracy
> and the need to play along to a click track when recording.

I've also heard that midi timing is less precise than audio timing. Based on this assumption, sending e-drum triggers as audio (instead of midi) would deliver more precise results.
You would then do beat detect & drum replacement in the DAW. 
Found this post on it (DAW=Logic): http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8156261-post4.html

Don't know if midi vs audio is a valid point and if this approach makes sense, though.

best regards
Buzap

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 10:29:50 2013
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On 2/4/2013 10:31 PM, mark francombe wrote:
> You guys are amazing! I have a small request, Can Rick sometime at his
> leisure pick up one (or two) of his weird ethnic drum things, and drag
> them across the yard to Bills garage, just about the same time as Bill
> starts one of his slippy slidey loopy solos?
>
> a vid with both bro's... Nice...

That can happen, though Bill and I have really busy schedules lately and 
are not playing
together very much these days.  We're just doing really different 
things, musically these
days but  I'm sure it will happen in the future.

In the meantime,  go here to see the two of us improvising in a live 
looping duo situation
at a gig where we opened for Argentina's amazing Juana Molina.

These are full song clips from Bill project, New Delta  where we play 
music that is originally
inspired by musics from the Nile ,  Mississippi ,  Ganges and Yangtze 
Deltas.

www.youtube.com/billwalkersnewdelta

thanks for the request,  Mark

Rick Walker

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The situations where I have learned most about realistic drum
programming is when I have been sitting together with a drummer in
front of a computer to program drums for a piece of music. I came to
realize that I had many incorrect assumptions about drumming and the
first area where I had to shape up my knowledge was "tightness and
quantization". I had been thinking that the exact timing of machines
is bad for the feel in a drum track and that human drummers sound more
organic and musical because every hit is not aligned to an exact time
grid. With the first drummer I thought "wow, this is a funny guy that
wants to quantize everything" but then I found this attitude among all
drummers I worked with - no one is so keen on the studio's Quantize
Button as real drummers. This totally opposed my previous assumptions,
and still the drum tracks we came up with sounded better and more
human that I had ever been able to create on my own. Why? Well, the
answer is not "timing humanization" but "accent exactness". So that I
learned by loosing a bit of my ego ;-)  This has directly to do with
"ghost hits" that Buzzrap mentions but there's a lot more to it. With
accents (handled by "velocity" in MIDI along a 128 step range) you
create loops within an on-going rhythm, accent loops that may go on
for long periods like four, eight, twelve or sixteen bars. These tides
of subtle "waves" in accent (how hard the virtual drummer bashes the
skins) has to be applied in balance with drum fills. A related
technique, for more progressive music styles, is to make accent loops
that rely poly rhythmical to the short beat, much like when combining
loops of different length (typical example syncing a three-beat loop
and a four-beat loop). This technique is also common in melody
composition (King Crimson, minimal techno), as a "less is more" way to
create two complementary stories with just one melody line. But
drummers do that all the time within the rest of the music, drumming
can be a poly rhythm factory in its own right.

The bottom line of this is that most sequencer applications "Humanize"
buttons are crap. They apply randomization to the placement in time of
each drum hit, and this is all bad. If you look at how a great drummer
plays it may seem like "a little random is at play" if you only look
at only one or two bars of his playing - and this is where the
programming approach often fails. When looking at how a great drummer
plays along the full length of a piece you will find that any
deviation from a time grid is never caused by random; there is always
an intention present at any level of the drumming. So to take on all
this knowledge and apply it in programming is a huge task. And
technically challenging too, because sequencers are not always
designed by musicians so there are no easy ways to do things like
smoothly letting a hihat pattern drift from slow to an aggressively
leading general timing over a couple of bars. One constantly needs to
balance the general timing of kick drum, snare and hihat. These three
timing areas depend not only on the music and the instrumentation of
the orchestra but also on the mixing. And here is the second thing I
learned form working closely with drummers in the studio: a drum
rhythm carries the music totally differently depending on how "sharp"
or "muddy" the drum mixing is. But there's more to it: modern DAW
mixing environments have plugins that will let you shape transients
like modeling clay and this is a very important technique for
"realistic drum programming"  (but it isn't actually programming but
rather sound design at its most extreme dynamics). If you solo a
"realistic" drum track it may not sound realistic at all, but in the
mix it does, and this is a psychological phenomenon in human hearing.
The brain constantly generalizes sound from the very first
milliseconds of the sound; hence the importance of the attack in
drumming and producing recordings of drumming. The point is that a
recording can not generalize creatively like our ears and brains are
so good at, so all producing of recorded music has to be "cheating" to
find the best ways to "imply directions" that bring up the experience
of "realistic" in the listener. This is why you can press the mixer's
solo button for a timpani drum channel and A/B compare it with
pounding the real timpani drum. The real thing just won't fit onto the
recording medium and the message will get lost. Real instruments have
developed over centuries because they tend to sound great together
when listened to live (with the exceptionally efficient human brain
analyzing early reflections in 3.D). Recording is totally different,
one has to minimize the real thing to make it fit sonically and also
introduce nifty tricks for dynamic processing to replace the absent
"human ear/brain code". Techniques to make this dynamics happen in a
recording also includes setting up sub mixes of drum groups and having
them interact dynamically by side chaining (often includes bass lines
and "effect reverb breathing" etc). Maybe treating certain frequency
ranges of a sound differently.

All this can be heard on records so it is easy to learn by keeping
reference recordings at hand while working on a mix of your own;
compare, adjust your work, compare, adjust your work, compare... doing
that for some time makes you learn progressively as you pick up "new
senses". The more you learn the faster you learn more.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:54:37 +0100
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On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
> This is why you can press the mixer's
> solo button for a timpani drum channel and A/B compare it with
> pounding the real timpani drum.

A fatal typo creeped in there! :-))  Of couse I meant:

"This is why you can NOT press the mixer's
solo button for a timpani drum channel and A/B compare it with
pounding the real timpani drum."

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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From: mark francombe 
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 12:00:52 +0100
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Subject: Re: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming
To: Rick Walker 
Cc: "LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting)" 
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--f46d042f9c7eb2a37104d4f82015
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Now thats what Im talking about!



On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Rick Walker  wrote:

> On 2/4/2013 10:31 PM, mark francombe wrote:
>
>> You guys are amazing! I have a small request, Can Rick sometime at his
>> leisure pick up one (or two) of his weird ethnic drum things, and drag
>> them across the yard to Bills garage, just about the same time as Bill
>> starts one of his slippy slidey loopy solos?
>>
>> a vid with both bro's... Nice...
>>
>
> That can happen, though Bill and I have really busy schedules lately and
> are not playing
> together very much these days.  We're just doing really different things,
> musically these
> days but  I'm sure it will happen in the future.
>
> In the meantime,  go here to see the two of us improvising in a live
> looping duo situation
> at a gig where we opened for Argentina's amazing Juana Molina.
>
> These are full song clips from Bill project, New Delta  where we play
> music that is originally
> inspired by musics from the Nile ,  Mississippi ,  Ganges and Yangtze
> Deltas.
>
> www.youtube.com/**billwalkersnewdelta
>
> thanks for the request,  Mark
>
> Rick Walker
>
>


-- 
mark francombe
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
twitter @markfrancombe
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no

--f46d042f9c7eb2a37104d4f82015
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Now thats what Im talking about!

=



On Tue,=
 Feb 5, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com> wrote:



On 2/4/2013 10:31 PM, mark francombe wrote:<=
br>


You guys are amazing! I have a small request, Can Rick sometime at his

leisure pick up one (or two) of his weird ethnic drum things, and drag

them across the yard to Bills garage, just about the same time as Bill

starts one of his slippy slidey loopy solos?



a vid with both bro's... Nice...





That can happen, though Bill and I have really busy schedules lately and ar=
e not playing

together very much these days. =A0We're just doing really different thi=
ngs, musically these

days but =A0I'm sure it will happen in the future.



In the meantime, =A0go here to see the two of us improvising in a live loop=
ing duo situation

at a gig where we opened for Argentina's amazing Juana Molina.



These are full song clips from Bill project, New Delta =A0where we play mus=
ic that is originally

inspired by musics from the Nile , =A0Mississippi , =A0Ganges and Yangtze D=
eltas.



ww=
w.youtube.com/billwalkersnewdelta



thanks for the request, =A0Mark



Rick Walker







-- mark francombe
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com


twitter @markfrancombe
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no



--f46d042f9c7eb2a37104d4f82015--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 11:08:52 2013
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From: phillip wilson 
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Subject: Anything Looping in Paris Wed 6th  Thurs 7th
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:03:46 +0000
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Hi All=2C  I am coming from Antwerp to visit Paris tomorrow=2C myself and m=
y Girlfriend will be around from Wednesday until late Friday I just wondere=
d if any of you Parisian loopers know of anything interesting going on? It =
doesnt have to be loop related=2C I just thought if any set of people will =
know of interesting things in the city=2C it will be you guys and girls. th=
anks Phill MyOneManBand 		 	   		  =

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Hi All=2C 
 =3B
I am coming from Antwerp to visit Paris tomorrow=
=2C myself and my Girlfriend will be around from Wednesday until late Frida=
y
 =3B
I just wondered if any of you Parisian loopers know of any=
thing interesting going on?
 =3B
It doesnt have to be loop relate=
d=2C I just thought if any set of people will know of interesting things in=
 the city=2C it will be you guys and girls.
 =3B
thanks
 =
=3B
Phill MyOneManBand
 		 	   		  

=

--_1571b04c-5ee6-45ce-97ba-f8765f57718e_--

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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 12:25:38 +0100
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Subject: Re: MPD-style drum pads vs midi keyboard / midi pedal
From: Per Boysen 
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On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
> since we've opened up the topic of drum programming:
> Is there any practical advantage of using MPD-style drum pads vs using midi keyboard for punching down drum patterns?
> (I don't even want to get started on Piezo pads - think Zendrum, Futureman...).

I take it you got struck by a typo and actually mean MPC? The question
is hypothetical because Akai MPC is known for the great playability of
its pads while there are so many different brands of MIDI keyboards of
different quality regarding playability in the touch sensitive
department. A good thing with the MPC is that the pads bounce back
your fingers as you tap them and also that you can make rolls and
other drumming effects by a "long press" on one pad.

Here I must mention a new highly interesting instrument: the Push that
Ableton Live has developed together with Akai. Push is know for
relying on the same musical pads quality as Akai used in the MPCs. If
I had money and needed a new studio keyboard I would be very tempted
by the Push instead of a traditional piano-style keyboard. I think
that scales and playing patterns are more logical and playable on the
Push than on a piano. Actually, the "normal tuning" of the Push grid
has the same tapping patterns as the fourth tunes neck on a Stick.


>
> Also, while we're at it:
> Do you think you could program straight 1/16 hi-hats, then record a midi foot pedal sort of as automation, simulating hihat pedal?

Certainly! Many do so. The MPC has the roll function that would be
like your idea if set to 16th notes. In a modular sequencer like
Numerology it is easy to make on sixteenth nots sequencer for a hihat
and assign a quantized momentary trigger pedal to play it. Older
versions of Logic had this too in the Window version. Your idea is a
typical example of a highly useful musical tool that gets lost in the
industry because theere seem to be too few musicians in the corporate
board rooms ;-)  I have tried to set up play stations like this for
drummers using audio samples of recorded hi-hat patters. It works well
but you lose out on a bit of dynamic playing and you suffer a
frightening risk of Major Mistake in live playing due to bad
triggering of the sequence. I mean, just a few milliseconds early or
late will let out the full sequence out of time and force the drummer
to improvise stutter effects all through a bar or two in order to
cover up, LOL...   That's why I think a duly programmed sequence
pattern triggered from maybe an eight note quantization is better. But
face it, this is a solution for non drummers and can never sound like
a drummer because a drummer will never play a two bar hihat pattern in
exactly the same way twice :-)  But quite often that stiffness sounds
good, at least to my taste.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 12:15:39 2013
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From: Philip Conway 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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I don't have either the inclination or the ability to program 'realistic' 
drum sounds but I find Ableton Live's velocity and timing randomisation to 
be quite useful in removing the robotic-ness of a programmed loop.  The 
Groove Library function is pretty nice for quickly giving a more realistic 
swing to your programming too.

Because my music tends to be quite repetitive (surprise!) I try everything 
I can to stop the rat-a-tat-tat machine gun effect with samples.  This 
track has two very repetitive and simple drum patterns but with some 
randomness and lots of effect automation:

https://soundcloud.com/swellofsound/hubbub

I think it's the Puremagnetik sampled kit on that track but I'm not sure.

And this track has two drum loops.  The first is automated so that it 
stutters, splutters and breaks apart and never repeats in the same way 
twice (but it's one short midi pattern all the way through), the second is 
straight, boring loop that has no humanisation at all.

https://soundcloud.com/swellofsound/sketchpop

Clearly none of these loops sound in the least bit realistic but, 
nevertheless, a little controlled randomness can go a long way.



Philip.


--On 05 February 2013 11:48 +0100 Per Boysen  wrote:

> The situations where I have learned most about realistic drum
> programming is when I have been sitting together with a drummer in
> front of a computer to program drums for a piece of music. I came to
> realize that I had many incorrect assumptions about drumming and the
> first area where I had to shape up my knowledge was "tightness and
> quantization". I had been thinking that the exact timing of machines
> is bad for the feel in a drum track and that human drummers sound more
> organic and musical because every hit is not aligned to an exact time
> grid. With the first drummer I thought "wow, this is a funny guy that
> wants to quantize everything" but then I found this attitude among all
> drummers I worked with - no one is so keen on the studio's Quantize
> Button as real drummers. This totally opposed my previous assumptions,
> and still the drum tracks we came up with sounded better and more
> human that I had ever been able to create on my own. Why? Well, the
> answer is not "timing humanization" but "accent exactness". So that I
> learned by loosing a bit of my ego ;-)  This has directly to do with
> "ghost hits" that Buzzrap mentions but there's a lot more to it. With
> accents (handled by "velocity" in MIDI along a 128 step range) you
> create loops within an on-going rhythm, accent loops that may go on
> for long periods like four, eight, twelve or sixteen bars. These tides
> of subtle "waves" in accent (how hard the virtual drummer bashes the
> skins) has to be applied in balance with drum fills. A related
> technique, for more progressive music styles, is to make accent loops
> that rely poly rhythmical to the short beat, much like when combining
> loops of different length (typical example syncing a three-beat loop
> and a four-beat loop). This technique is also common in melody
> composition (King Crimson, minimal techno), as a "less is more" way to
> create two complementary stories with just one melody line. But
> drummers do that all the time within the rest of the music, drumming
> can be a poly rhythm factory in its own right.
>
> The bottom line of this is that most sequencer applications "Humanize"
> buttons are crap. They apply randomization to the placement in time of
> each drum hit, and this is all bad. If you look at how a great drummer
> plays it may seem like "a little random is at play" if you only look
> at only one or two bars of his playing - and this is where the
> programming approach often fails. When looking at how a great drummer
> plays along the full length of a piece you will find that any
> deviation from a time grid is never caused by random; there is always
> an intention present at any level of the drumming. So to take on all
> this knowledge and apply it in programming is a huge task. And
> technically challenging too, because sequencers are not always
> designed by musicians so there are no easy ways to do things like
> smoothly letting a hihat pattern drift from slow to an aggressively
> leading general timing over a couple of bars. One constantly needs to
> balance the general timing of kick drum, snare and hihat. These three
> timing areas depend not only on the music and the instrumentation of
> the orchestra but also on the mixing. And here is the second thing I
> learned form working closely with drummers in the studio: a drum
> rhythm carries the music totally differently depending on how "sharp"
> or "muddy" the drum mixing is. But there's more to it: modern DAW
> mixing environments have plugins that will let you shape transients
> like modeling clay and this is a very important technique for
> "realistic drum programming"  (but it isn't actually programming but
> rather sound design at its most extreme dynamics). If you solo a
> "realistic" drum track it may not sound realistic at all, but in the
> mix it does, and this is a psychological phenomenon in human hearing.
> The brain constantly generalizes sound from the very first
> milliseconds of the sound; hence the importance of the attack in
> drumming and producing recordings of drumming. The point is that a
> recording can not generalize creatively like our ears and brains are
> so good at, so all producing of recorded music has to be "cheating" to
> find the best ways to "imply directions" that bring up the experience
> of "realistic" in the listener. This is why you can press the mixer's
> solo button for a timpani drum channel and A/B compare it with
> pounding the real timpani drum. The real thing just won't fit onto the
> recording medium and the message will get lost. Real instruments have
> developed over centuries because they tend to sound great together
> when listened to live (with the exceptionally efficient human brain
> analyzing early reflections in 3.D). Recording is totally different,
> one has to minimize the real thing to make it fit sonically and also
> introduce nifty tricks for dynamic processing to replace the absent
> "human ear/brain code". Techniques to make this dynamics happen in a
> recording also includes setting up sub mixes of drum groups and having
> them interact dynamically by side chaining (often includes bass lines
> and "effect reverb breathing" etc). Maybe treating certain frequency
> ranges of a sound differently.
>
> All this can be heard on records so it is easy to learn by keeping
> reference recordings at hand while working on a mix of your own;
> compare, adjust your work, compare, adjust your work, compare... doing
> that for some time makes you learn progressively as you pick up "new
> senses". The more you learn the faster you learn more.
>
> Greetings from Sweden
>
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>




From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 12:23:08 2013
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Hi Per

VERY enlightening, thank you very much for taking the time to write in such detail.

The hard quantization seems counter-intuitive but I guess it makes sense - though I think that shifting i.e. hihat notes a bit gives the drum pattern either drive or layed-back feeling.

Also the ghost notes, "accents"... Makes sense. Just thinking of Steve Gadd's snare on Paul Simon's "50 ways to leave your lover" (or in jazz pretty much any drummer, i.e. Jack DeJohnette).

So, I guess best drum programming advice is:
Get experience playing some real drums. Then you know what you're aiming for in drum programming.

best regards
Buzap


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Hi Per

yes, the famous Akai MPCs (I believe the midi pads are caled MPD, though).
I don't like the long press rolls (or sometimes it's a "roll" key). I prefer having 2 keys that I can alternate to simulate rolls (but never satisfying...).
Still, since I'm more familiar with traditional keyboards, the MPC pads don't seem to revolutionaize anything like piezo pads would do.

Concerning, Push, yes... Four years ago I would die for it.
I have watched every video released. It's an excellent concept.
For piano playability... When you look at established isomorphic layouts, especially in chromatic mode, the layout may not be optimal to play.

Still, I'm very much tempted nonetheless. :-)

best regards
Buzap

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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:48:11 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
> The hard quantization seems counter-intuitive but I guess it makes sense

That has been my "hard earned" experience. It is all about the
accents. Total control over and expressiveness through the accents!!!

> - though I think that shifting i.e. hihat notes a bit gives the drum pattern either drive or layed-back feeling.
>

Yes. Lots of educational examples is to be found on record with
drummers like Stuart Copeland and Bill Bruford.

Here it is also interesting to analyze "The Rolling Stones
Phenomenon"; several ensemble members stretching the timing into
different directions but still not falling out of the groove. No
randomization algorithm can fake that :-)

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Subject: Click Track in Live?
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Does anyone know how to make a click track in live and then pan it to  
one side with music/loops (also from Live) on the other?

Any tips would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

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Subject: Re: Click Track in Live?
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Isn't it as simple as writing your click in a midi track w hihats, panning i=
t to one side and then panning your other tracks to the other side?  Alterna=
tively, you could use return tracks or make everything mono and then send to=
 separate outs.=20

Bests, Todd.=20

Or call me at 917.576.6166 (or text)

On Feb 5, 2013, at 9:05 AM, Jeff Shirkey  wrote:

> Does anyone know how to make a click track in live and then pan it to one s=
ide with music/loops (also from Live) on the other?
>=20
> Any tips would be sincerely appreciated.
>=20
> Thanks in advance,
>=20
> Jeff
>=20

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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:08:35 +0100
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Subject: Re: Click Track in Live?
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On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Jeff Shirkey  wrote:
> Does anyone know how to make a click track in live and then pan it to one
> side with music/loops (also from Live) on the other?

Drag and drop any audio file into a slot on a track in the Session
View. Pan it to one side. Pan everything else to the other side.

You may also use the A/B scene cross panning fader (down to the right,
need to assign A or B to tracks vs click channel)

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:11:59 +0100
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Subject: Re: Click Track in Live?
From: Per Boysen 
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I don't want to keep spamming on this, but there is also the option of
giving whatever click track you decide on its own hardware output
(good for "click in monitors on stage" for example). To do so you
assign the click channel to the "PreView/Cue" rather than to the
"Master". Just adding in case you were thinking about this...

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Todd Reynolds  wrote:
> Isn't it as simple as writing your click in a midi track w hihats, panning it to one side and then panning your other tracks to the other side?  Alternatively, you could use return tracks or make everything mono and then send to separate outs.
>
> Bests, Todd.
>
> Or call me at 917.576.6166 (or text)
>
> On Feb 5, 2013, at 9:05 AM, Jeff Shirkey  wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know how to make a click track in live and then pan it to one side with music/loops (also from Live) on the other?
>>
>> Any tips would be sincerely appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>

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If he wants to pan his click that won't work unless he assigns the preview t=
o a mono channel tho, correct? And can we do that anyway? Haven't checked.=20=


Or call me at 917.576.6166 (or text)

On Feb 5, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:

> I don't want to keep spamming on this, but there is also the option of
> giving whatever click track you decide on its own hardware output
> (good for "click in monitors on stage" for example). To do so you
> assign the click channel to the "PreView/Cue" rather than to the
> "Master". Just adding in case you were thinking about this...
>=20
> Greetings from Sweden
>=20

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Well, it helps that I look like a guy whose been playing
since 1975 ;-)



i look like a guy who has been playing since 1965 and they still kick me ou=
t after the first note!





=20

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Well, it helps that I look like a guy whose been playing
since 1975 ;-)




i look like a guy who has been =
playing since 1965 and they still kick me out after the first note!<=
br>









 






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Hi Per

> several ensemble members stretching the timing into
>different directions but still not falling out of the groove.

Yeah, I'm thinking also of The Meters and Sun Ra recordings.
You have a chaotic wobbing madness - yet it's grooving like hell!

best regards
Buzap


From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 16:02:14 2013
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Subject: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming
From: Daniel Thomas 
In-reply-to: <5967827089350048620@unknownmsgid>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 08:02:12 -0800
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I sent this message yesterday but from the wrong email address and so the LD server rejected it.

- RWs Rhythm Intensive changed my life.  Single most impactful music lessons I have ever applied.  Its as fundamental to my musical approach as the Circle of Fifths or the understanding of the Triad.

And as for vids of the Brothers Walker together.  I am working on a nice video from the 1990s of the brothers performing a duet in our band Worlds Collide.  It was a powerfully good band.  I always felt in debt to their Walker parents for the amazing familial talent that our band was rooted in.  T'was well worth the price of admission,  dear bandmates.

Daniel



On Feb 4, 2013, at 10:31 PM, mark francombe  wrote:

> You guys are amazing! I have a small request, Can Rick sometime at his
> leisure pick up one (or two) of his weird ethnic drum things, and drag
> them across the yard to Bills garage, just about the same time as Bill
> starts one of his slippy slidey loopy solos?
> 
> a vid with both bro's... Nice...
> 
> Sent from my (advertisement removed)
> 
> On 5 Feb 2013, at 03:00, William Walker  wrote:
> 
>> Rick understands rhythm like few people, has studied and transcribed african and other world rhythms like few westerners, and is a stylistic chameleon capable of playing  drum or percussion kit in any genre imaginable. Having played with him for 30+ years I feel very lucky to have had his mastery  of the groove influence me, and help me become a better musician.
>> Bill
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 17:02:31 +0100
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Subject: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
From: Per Boysen 
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Yes, that's it. Listening to music like that must be The Hole Graal of
music making :-)  I mean, you learn more than you're hearing. As the
guys create are more music than they are actually playing. Good
practices to learn this is to try to emphasize some part by playing
different things, playing "around" the hot spot rather than spot on.
Reggae comes to mind; with the downbeat becoming so heavy because no
one plays it. The listening logic then goes "that huge frigging hole
must be the center of the universe..."

pb


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Buzap Buzap  wrote:
> Hi Per
>
>> several ensemble members stretching the timing into
>>different directions but still not falling out of the groove.
>
> Yeah, I'm thinking also of The Meters and Sun Ra recordings.
> You have a chaotic wobbing madness - yet it's grooving like hell!
>
> best regards
> Buzap
>
>

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Subject: new album now on Bandcamp
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 09:23:53 -0800
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My new Iterations album can now be streamed in toto:

http://rpcollier.bandcamp.com/album/iterations


BobC

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 19:08:03 2013
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To: andy butler ,
        "LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting)" 
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On 2/5/2013 1:07 AM, andy butler wrote:
> Rick Walker wrote:
>
>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. 
>
> As I understand it there's also limits to timing accuracy
> and the need to play along to a click track when recording.
>
>
> andy
*This is true, and just as with all looping devices, each one has a 
certain latency that one has
to learn in order to be accurate, rhythmically.
Each software package has different latencies.

If you record enough,  you get a good sense for playing with slightly 
different latencies and
it helps your over all sense of time and timing.

That's why I always say that playing with looping devices has done more 
to help my own sense
of time and timing than playing with all the click tracks and master 
drummers from around the world
that I've been blessed to have played with.

/R.
*

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> The listening logic then goes "that huge frigging hole must be the center of the universe..."

:-))




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Am 05.02.2013 10:07, schrieb andy butler:
> As I understand it there's also limits to timing accuracy
> and the need to play along to a click track when recording.
Why would there be a need to play along a click track?

True, many sequencers originally had only a beat-based time base (and 
depending on the DAW in use/the modus operandi you apply, still use that 
to reference the recorded stuff), but you can feel free to play in any 
tempo you like, no matter what the daw is set to...

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb  5 19:19:33 2013
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Awesome post, Per.

I would only amend that micro-increments in timing do occur if you 
record and analyze the
wave files of even the best drummers.

In a program like FLStudio Producers Edition (which I love to use for my 
drum programming)
one has the ability to divide each 16th note into 64 separate increments.

A trick I use is to randomly make every offbeat 16th note be just a few 
of these increments late.
This technique (even when compared to perfectly quantized 8th note 
on-beats) gives the whole
feel a just slightly imperfect feel.

It's one of my tricks for all sequenced playing to make it sound more 
'human'.

and you have it right:   Human drummers actually aspire to perfect 
quantization and never
get there completely.  That's what's so beautiful about us.

I hear this story once:
*Picasso was once approached by a journalist and asked,**
**
**"You are the most famous and recognizable artist of the 20th Century.  
You can make a doodle on a **
**napkin in a restaurant and people will recognize it as a 'Picasso'.**
**
**So,  how do you draw a Picasso circle?**"**
**
**He said, "that's easy,  I sit down and and attempt to draw, to the 
best of my ability,  a perfect circle.**
**Because I am human and imperfect,  what comes out is a "Picasso" circle.*

Rick Walker

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Am 05.02.2013 09:03, schrieb Buzap Buzap:
> since we've opened up the topic of drum programming:
> Is there any practical advantage of using MPD-style drum pads vs using midi keyboard for punching down drum patterns?
> (I don't even want to get started on Piezo pads - think Zendrum, Futureman...).
As other said, it's a question of user interface. The Akai pads, as well 
as the 4x4 layout, seem to work for a lot of people, but may not work 
for you. What I also enjoy is that the pads are pressure-sensitive 
(polyphonic aftertouch) which, depending on the sound source you're 
using, can also help to create some realism-oriented effects.
> Do you think you could program straight 1/16 hi-hats, then record a midi foot pedal sort of as automation, simulating hihat pedal?
If I understand this question correctly:
This is something you could do with your DAW. I remember playing a hihat 
thingie on a Roland Octapad (with a connected pedal). The pads would 
send MIDI notes, the pedal sent sustain CC (64). In Cubase, I used a 
script (I think they are called "logical functions") to shift the 
"closed hihat" pad to "open hihat" when the CC64 was >0.

Now on to the valuable suggestions by many folks so far, and also some 
own ideas:
(As it just happened that I recently thought about some of that stuff 
discussed here, there's even some examples):

* That suggestion (I believe it was by Per) to use dynamics instead of 
timing corrections to get feel into it also works by some trick you can 
work on the human timing perception, exploited a lot in later 
bebop/hardbop recordings where instead of shuffling those fast 
leads/solos, the artists would play it straight, but ghost every second 
note, giving the perception of some shuffle. This also works well (on 
instruments where the note has a duration) with long and short notes.
In this track, this technique is applied to the synth which starts the 
track. Note that during one section of the track, of the three synths 
that play this part, one shuffles:
http://secretalbum.bandcamp.com/track/wehgetan

* As for easily putting dynamic changes onto an already programmed drum 
groove, the Akai MPD/MPCs also help: put them in the mode where each pad 
plays the same note, but at different velocities. Set your sequencer to 
step mode and to only affect note dynamics, not create new notes, and 
you can quickly put dynamics onto your existing sequencer groove.

* This one was inspired by Rick Walker: combine computer precision with 
human life. Use a super-precise bass and snare drum groove (even a very 
repetitive one) and add a hand-played hihat part. Or the other way round.
Again, the track from above: hihat acoustic (with some beat-slicing 
tricks applied), bd/sd Linn9000:
http://secretalbum.bandcamp.com/track/wehgetan

* Take the timing out of a groove you already enjoy: with a daw, you can 
often import an existing groove as an audio file and beat slice it (or 
import a REX file from recycle) and then apply the timing to your 
programmed groove. Still need to take care of the dynamics, though - 
anyone knows a DAW or plugin or whatever which can extract the dynamics 
from a groove? (yes, it's a tricky thing...)
This drum groove comes from the end of "What" from Joey Baron's "Down Home"
http://secretalbum.bandcamp.com/track/sids-impeccable-design

* As we are already at the topic of reusing existing audio material, 
another one: depending on the nature of your source, you might be able 
to extract a whole bunch of different snare, or hihat, sounds. Use them 
in a drum sampler to great effect.

* And another one: use an existing drum track, and then slice it and 
rearrange it to match the timing and dynamics of another source.
Here, the drum part from "A Tätowierte Katz'" 
(https://soundcloud.com/moinlabs/a-totowierte-katz) was used as audio 
material to play the notorious Amen break, with its timing extracted as 
described above:
http://secretalbum.bandcamp.com/track/shalom-sister

* Sometimes, the artificial sound of samplers and sequencers can be 
beneficial to your music - this is an interesting arrangement task. I 
unfortunately do not remember the album or track, but there was this 
great DeJohnette track which had a big horn section, acoustic piano, 
bass and drums, and a cheap 70s drum machine adding a hand clap. Of 
course, this can work the other way round: use artifical drums, synth 
bass, cheesy synths, DX7-style epiano, and then add just a 
single-note-picking slightly driven wah guitar into the background.

Ok, enough for now...keep the ideas coming!

                 Rainer

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Subject: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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Some less than accurate information has slipped through lately, so
please allow me to chime in with humble corrections.

>> Rick Walker wrote:
>>
>>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity.

128 are the steps for so called Continuous Control data. 128 steps is
used for example when turning a knob or pushing a fader. Or to measure
how fast a note is attacked (Velocity).


> On 2/5/2013 1:07 AM, andy butler wrote:
>>
>> As I understand it there's also limits to timing accuracy

128 steps has nothing to do with timing of MIDI Notes. Note resolution
can vary on different platforms, but in Logic that I am working in
right now, the resolution for each quarter note is 960 steps. For one
bar that gives 3840 steps, "1/3840". Timing resolution for audio is
sample accurate, which means for my current project that there are
48.000 steps within a second where a recording can be. The mixer in
Logic works at a 32bit floating point resolution; I can't calculate
the exact resolution of that but it must be many thousand times higher
than MIDI.


>> and the need to play along to a click track when recording.
>>
>> andy

There's no need for that, you may use a MIDI sequencer just as a tape
recorder if you like.


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Rick Walker  wrote

> Each software package has different latencies.

Generally there are no MIDI latency at all in software. MIDI keyboards
and MIDI control pedals can have quite a lot of latency though. There
is also an issue to understand with audio latency, but I think we are
talking MIDI in this thread aren't we?

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Am 05.02.2013 21:09, schrieb Per Boysen:
> Some less than accurate information has slipped through lately, so
> please allow me to chime in with humble corrections.
>
>>>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity.
> 128 are the steps for so called Continuous Control data. 128 steps is
> used for example when turning a knob or pushing a fader. Or to measure
> how fast a note is attacked (Velocity).
Not wanting to split hairs here (ok, yes, I want to):
MIDI velocity (or almost anything, with the exception of the channel # 
and the double-precision CCs) is 7 bit, meaning its value range is from 
0-127, which means it's 127 increments, not 128. ;-P

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Rick Walker wrote:
> On 2/5/2013 1:07 AM, andy butler wrote:
>> Rick Walker wrote:
>>
>>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. 
>>
>> As I understand it there's also limits to timing accuracy
>> and the need to play along to a click track when recording.
>>
>>
>> andy
> *This is true, and just as with all looping devices, each one has a 
> certain latency that one has
> to learn in order to be accurate, rhythmically.

Well, thinking more about jitter...which can't be compensated.
Limit of timing resolution to one midi-tick - unless that's
something that's sorted these days.
Serial nature of midi transmission.
that sort of thing.



andy

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Per Boysen wrote:

> There's no need for that, you may use a MIDI sequencer just as a tape
> recorder if you like.

ok, at least it's not limited to 64 ticks per beat these days then.



>and Rainer wrote too

I don't know if I'd notice the jitter recording freely across
a sequencer that resolved 960 steps per beat, 
..but I'm not reassured.


Don't see why there can't be a midi sequencer with sample accurate timing.

Timing for audio recording is better than sample accurate though.
Think about it.
The peak in a waveform can come on the sample, or between two samples,
or in some other place.

andy

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Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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It depends on whether you consider silence a loudness level :-)

On 2/5/13 2:14 PM, "Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill"
 wrote:

>Am 05.02.2013 21:09, schrieb Per Boysen:
>> Some less than accurate information has slipped through lately, so
>> please allow me to chime in with humble corrections.
>>
>>>>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity.
>> 128 are the steps for so called Continuous Control data. 128 steps is
>> used for example when turning a knob or pushing a fader. Or to measure
>> how fast a note is attacked (Velocity).
>Not wanting to split hairs here (ok, yes, I want to):
>MIDI velocity (or almost anything, with the exception of the channel #
>and the double-precision CCs) is 7 bit, meaning its value range is from
>0-127, which means it's 127 increments, not 128. ;-P
>
>


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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:46:22 -0500
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Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
From: Bennett Williams 
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Not to sound horribly arrogant, but I will would rather play the drum part
myself than go through the hassle of programming one. That being said,
having a bare-bones sequenced track to listen to as I am playing is VERY
helpful for accurate recording.

-B

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Jeff Larson wrote:

> It depends on whether you consider silence a loudness level :-)
>
> On 2/5/13 2:14 PM, "Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill"
>  wrote:
>
> >Am 05.02.2013 21:09, schrieb Per Boysen:
> >> Some less than accurate information has slipped through lately, so
> >> please allow me to chime in with humble corrections.
> >>
> >>>>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity.
> >> 128 are the steps for so called Continuous Control data. 128 steps is
> >> used for example when turning a knob or pushing a fader. Or to measure
> >> how fast a note is attacked (Velocity).
> >Not wanting to split hairs here (ok, yes, I want to):
> >MIDI velocity (or almost anything, with the exception of the channel #
> >and the double-precision CCs) is 7 bit, meaning its value range is from
> >0-127, which means it's 127 increments, not 128. ;-P
> >
> >
>
>
>


-- 
*Bennett Williams*
*
http://www.bennettwilliams.net
http://bennettwilliams.bandcamp.com/
http://www.soundcloud.com/bennettwilliams*

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Not to sound horribly arrogant, but I will would rather play the drum part =
myself than go through the hassle of programming one. That being said, havi=
ng a bare-bones sequenced track to listen to as I am playing is VERY helpfu=
l for accurate recording. 


-B

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Je=
ff Larson <jeff.larson@sailpoint.com> wrote:

It depends on whether you consider silence a loudness level :-)



On 2/5/13 2:14 PM, "Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill"

<moinsound@googlemail.com> wrote:



>Am 05.02.2013 21:09, schrieb Per Boysen:

>> Some less than accurate information has slipped through lately, so=


>> please allow me to chime in with humble corrections.

>>

>>>>> 1) =A0Midi only has 127 increments of velocity.

>> 128 are the steps for so called Continuous Control data. 128 steps=
 is

>> used for example when turning a knob or pushing a fader. Or to mea=
sure

>> how fast a note is attacked (Velocity).

>Not wanting to split hairs here (ok, yes, I want to):

>MIDI velocity (or almost anything, with the exception of the channel #<=
br>
>and the double-precision CCs) is 7 bit, meaning its value range is from=


>0-127, which means it's 127 increments, not 128. ;-P

>

>









-- 
Bennett Williams<=
/b>

http://www.bennettwilliams.net
http://bennettwilliams.bandcamp.com/<=
br>
htt=
p://www.soundcloud.com/bennettwilliams


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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 21:53:41 +0100
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Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
From: Per Boysen 
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On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Jeff Larson  wrote:
> It depends on whether you consider silence a loudness level :-)


LOL!!!

And to split hairs with Rainer ;-) there has historically been two
ways of defining MIDI CC's 128 step range. One is a range from 0 to
127 (where "0" is an option as the lowest value) and the other is 1 to
128. I own MIDI gear that follow both takes on the MIDI Standard.
Quite funny "standard" :-)

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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From: Steven Clements 
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 14:05:17 -0700
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Subject: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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Hey Rick

I would agree with loads of what you said.  I think that real drummers with
real drums on to two track tape would be the best.

One thing I'd love to have is a reference for this: "human ear has the
ability to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume"  I'd like to read
that.  Of course if it was merely a colloquialism pay no mind to my
ramblings.

As far as I know JND in dB is approximately 0.5dB and of course is
frequency as well as level dependent; given a typical dynamic range 1,000
increments seems incredible.

Amen to Max Roach :)

Steven



On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Rick Walker  wrote:

> On 2/4/13 10:01 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:
>
>> I think Rick has already written a very extensive primer on this
>> subject.  Should be in the archives if those are still working.
>>
> I have a column at www.livelooping.org called "Rick's Ramblings",
> just musings about live looping and related things.
>
> I posted a column and cited what I'd written earlier about this topicboth
> here
> and at tribe.net (back when I used to be very heavily involved with that
> site
> before it's owner sabotaged it).
>
> http://www.livelooping.org/**history_concepts/ricks-**
> ramblings/making-drum-**programming-hipper/
>
> Also, I record and program for people all the time, remotely. Even though
> I'm a drummer,
> I find that the inaccuracies of midi (I'll talk about that in a moment)
> make it so that
> programmingdrums sound better and more 'realistic' than recording midi
> files on drum pads.
> I charge between $100 and $150 per song depending on how long it takes me.
> In terms of time, recording drums for a project acoustically costs about
> the same time, with the exception
> that I thrown in my own recording studio for free when I do acoustic
> recording.
>
> Sometimes, I actually prefer to program electronic drums instead of play
> acoustic ones because I
> want an edgy modern vibe to a track. I actually love analogue drum
> machines and creative digital
> sound design in programming (making one's own new percussionsounds).   I
> even like using
> old school analogue drum machines that are uber minimalistic and then
> using realdrums to augment.
> The first time I ever saw UltraVox in the 70's, their drumplayed kick,
> snare and hi hat against an old
> Roland CR-78 drum machine. I was transfixed at how cool and unusual this
> sounded.
>
>
> Also, to me, there are some drawbacks to using drummers midi trackstaken
> from
> real playing situations on electronic drum pads.   It may just be a matter
> of taste but
> here aresome of the reasons:
>
> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. The human ear has the
> ability to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume that are discernable.
> Midi volume is sometimes woefully inadequate in recreating realistic
> drumming that sounds like acoustic drumming for this reason
>
> 2) We can shape electronic drum sounds, individually with equalizationand
> with filters (which just another form of equilization)but we can only use
> subtractive equalization (cutoff filters)to approximate people hitting
> things harder or quieter.   Don't filter a hi hat hitand make it louder to
> approximate the loudest sound you can make. Reduce it's volume and cut off
> some of the high end frequencies to approximate it when it is hit more
> quietly. You can use additive equalization to by boosting resonance or
> tightening the "Q" of a sound,  but this doesn't sound realistic,
> unfortunately.
>
> 3) Multi-samples and Crossfading are frequently used to try and
> approximate what a drummer doesfor more realism:
>
> Go listen to a Max Roach hi hat solo that lasts for 20 minutes. Think
> about it.    You'd need thousands of individual samples to approximate all
> the sounds he gets out of a cymbal.
>
> Allof these intrinsic problems can be dealt with in creative ways but it
> takes a lot of knowledge to do so.
>
> So that brings us to algorithmic drum programs of which there are several
> on the market.
>
> Honestly,  I think they create really cool sounding percussion/drumtracks
> but they never sound
> like a real drum drummingto me.   If you like how they sound, however, and
> I know a lot of people who use
> these programs in their solo work, then they are valid.
>
> I also know musicians who use drum recordings from sample libraries and
> then edit them very carefully.
> One guy I know, Si Moorehead, makes metal tracks that you could NEVER tell
> were put together only with samples. He's a genius!
>
>

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Hey Rick

I would agree with loads of what you said.=C2=A0 I think th=
at real drummers with real drums on to two track tape would be the best.=C2=
=A0 

One thing I'd love to have is a reference for this: "h=
uman ear has the ability to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume"=
=C2=A0 I'd like to read that.=C2=A0 Of course if it was merely a colloq=
uialism pay no mind to my ramblings.



As far as I know JND in dB is approximately 0.5dB and of course is freq=
uency as well as level dependent; given a typical dynamic range 1,000 incre=
ments seems incredible.

Amen to Max Roach :)

Steven








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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:38:02 -0800 (PST)
From: bill bigrig 
Reply-To: bill bigrig 
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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I generally start with 64 or 128 length patterns. That allows one or two "v=
erse or chorus lines" of recording. With my incompetence, it comes out soun=
ding, oddly enough, somewhat, "human". It's the best way I've found to mini=
mize, robotic feel. I may go in after and quantise one or more drums, but t=
he half/quarter verse length of the sequence is less mechanical. I also try=
 to make 2 or 3 variations on the same pattern to avoid people who listen c=
losely enough to know that a pattern has been recycled.=0ARig=0A=0A=0A_____=
___________________________=0AFrom: andy butler =0A=
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com =0ACc: LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting)  =0ASent: Tuesday, February 5, 2013 12:1=
8 PM=0ASubject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs=0A=0A=0A=
=0ARick Walker wrote:=0A> On 2/5/2013 1:07 AM, andy butler wrote:=0A>> Rick=
 Walker wrote:=0A>>=0A>>> 1)=A0 Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. =
=0A>>=0A>> As I understand it there's also limits to timing accuracy=0A>> a=
nd the need to play along to a click track when recording.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> a=
ndy=0A> *This is true, and just as with all looping devices, each one has a=
 =0A> certain latency that one has=0A> to learn in order to be accurate, rh=
ythmically.=0A=0AWell, thinking more about jitter...which can't be compensa=
ted.=0ALimit of timing resolution to one midi-tick - unless that's=0Asometh=
ing that's sorted these days.=0ASerial nature of midi transmission.=0Athat =
sort of thing.=0A=0A=0A=0Aandy
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I generally start with 64 or 128 length p=
atterns. That allows one or two "verse or chorus lines" of recording. With =
my incompetence, it comes out sounding, oddly enough, somewhat, "human". It=
's the best way I've found to minimize, robotic feel. I may go in after and=
 quantise one or more drums, but the half/quarter verse length of the sequence is less mechanical. I also try to make 2 =
or 3 variations on the same pattern to avoid people who listen closely enou=
gh to know that a pattern has been recycled.


Rig











From:=
 andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com 
=
Cc: LOOPERS DELIGHT (postin=
g) <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2013 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Realistic drum progra=
mming/recording for songs



Rick Walker wrote:> On 2/5/2013 1:07 AM, andy butler wrote:
>> Rick Walker
 wrote:
>>
>>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments o=
f velocity. 
>>
>> As I understand it there's also limits=
 to timing accuracy
>> and the need to play along to a click track=
 when recording.
>>
>>
>> andy
> *This is =
true, and just as with all looping devices, each one has a 
> certain=
 latency that one has
> to learn in order to be accurate, rhythmicall=
y.

Well, thinking more about jitter...which can't be compensated.Limit of timing resolution to one midi-tick - unless that's
something t=
hat's sorted these days.
Serial nature of midi transmission.
that sor=
t of thing.



andy




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From: Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill 
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Am 05.02.2013 21:53, schrieb Per Boysen:
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Jeff Larson  wrote:
>> It depends on whether you consider silence a loudness level :-)
>
> LOL!!!
>
> And to split hairs with Rainer ;-) there has historically been two
> ways of defining MIDI CC's 128 step range. One is a range from 0 to
> 127 (where "0" is an option as the lowest value) and the other is 1 to
> 128. I own MIDI gear that follow both takes on the MIDI Standard.
> Quite funny "standard" :-)
My hair-splitting was only more trivial. Independently whether you start 
at 0 or 1 (and thinking about that being coded on the MIDI channel, it 
does start with "0000000"), you start at "0" (or "1"), then "1" (or "2") 
is the first increment, giving you a total of 127 increments until you 
reach 127 (128)  ;)

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From: mark francombe 
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Subject: Cloud loops on the GR55
To: per boysen , loopers-delight 
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Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to LD too, it has the word loop in it)

i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,
As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the
effect mapped to same pedal.
(the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)

last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course
i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of
the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.
There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show
up as an assign parameter...
I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably
In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on
it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?

M

Sent from my (advertisement removed)

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To: Per Boysen ,
        "LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting)" 
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On 2/5/2013 4:48 AM, Per Boysen wrote:
> Here it is also interesting to analyze "The Rolling Stones
> Phenomenon"; several ensemble members stretching the timing into
> different directions but still not falling out of the groove. No
> randomization algorithm can fake that:-)
I once heard someone mention an interview with the Stone's drummer, 
Charlie Watts.

He said that the leader of the Stones rhythm section (unlike most other 
rock and roll rhythm sections who are
led by either drummers or bassists) was Keith Richards, the rhythm 
guitarist.

He said that Bill Wyman, the bassist, listened entirely to Richards to 
get 'the groove' and 'the timing'.
Watts, himself, only listened to Wyman..................so you had this 
unusual human 'latency' train of a rhythm
section.

they are loose as hell but they are never playing 'wrong'.  They just 
follow each other with a train effect.

Fascinating because I've never heard any cover band pull off their sound 
accurately (unlike, say, the Beatles,
Nirvana, Nine Inch Nails or other cover bands).

Their rhythmic 'stew' just fascinates me.   Once could easily write a 
P.H.D dissertation on it's analysis and the world
would be the better for it.

/R.

ps   parenthetically,  Richards who was a constant junkie and drug 
addict,  would occasionally just drop a beat,
making an inadvertent 7/8 bar out of a bar of 8ths notes in 4/4.
Wyman and Watts trained themselves to just 'hiccup' to catch up to 
Richards, knowing that he'd never
make it back to the original time after his mistake.

I once played with a brilliant rhythm guitarist who would very 
occasionally, just drop an 8th note in a rock groove.
The fantastic bassist in that band and I finally realized that when he 
would do this, that 1) he didn't know he'd done
it and 2)  even if he did,  he couldn't get back to the original groove 
know matter how hard he tries.

We trained ourselves to just 'hiccup' quickly and drop a beat so that 
we'd always be together, despite the rhythmic mistake.

This was the first time in my life where I realized that playing 
together always trumped playing accurately.
It really helped me in dozens of later singer/songwriter record 
production sessions when talented singer/songwriters who
were NOT accomplished musicians would come in and make rhythmic mistakes 
in the recording studios that were, nonetheless,
musical as long as the drummer and bassist 'caught' them and played 
together.

/R.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb  6 11:37:32 2013
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To: Buzap Buzap ,
        "LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting)" 
Subject: the "Wiggly Area"  was  Realistic Drum Programming
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On 2/5/2013 7:51 AM, Buzap Buzap wrote:
> Yeah, I'm thinking also of The Meters and Sun Ra recordings.
> You have a chaotic wobbing madness - yet it's grooving like hell!
>
>
One of the best examples of this was a lecture that I heard Earl Campbell,
the legendary drummer who played with Little Richards and Fats Domino 
and who was
also credited as being the first person to ever play the 'backbeat' on 
snare drum loudly,
a phenomenon that would change all pop music history after it.

He said that when they cut their tracks that they became aware that a 
lot of keyboard players
would play straight 8th notes (a la Jerry Lee Lewis's music) while that 
a lot of bass players
would prefer shuffled grooves (a la the Blues at the time).

He realized that by playing with either one of them perfectly sounded 
horrible, but if he played
exactly in the middle of the swing of the bassist and the straight 
approach of the keyboardist
that a very loose  feel would be created that was NOT perfectly in one 
time or the other.
He called it the "Wiggly Area".

Later on, after having million selling regional hits with Richards and 
Domino,  he said that whenever
a band would come in to record at Cosimos' Studio,  all the black guys 
would try to emulate their
'million dollar sound' by playing triplet 8th note shuffled grooves and 
all the white guys would try
to emulate the same sound by playing 'straight 8ths' in their groove.

He said they used to laugh and laugh that no one could figure out what 
they were actually doing.

Go back and listen to all of the most seminal of rock and roll 
grooves.   It all swings,  but only slightly....
.....somewhere, loosely and polyrhtymically between shuffled triplet 8th 
notes and straight 8 notes.

All of the great New Orleans music is played this way..........in the 
'wiggly' area.

A great example of it is also to be found in James Brown's first 
instrumental hit,  "Night Train" (1958).
Go listen to it.   Listen to the rhythm section and then listen to the 
horn section.    They are juxtaposing
shuffles against straight grooves and it has the best 'wiggly' feel.

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Subject: Re: Cloud loops on the GR55
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Cc: loopers-delight 
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Hey Mark,

I use only the expression pedal and I assign it at several "assigns"
to several complementary parameters, with specific scaling for each
parameter of course. For a delay module I typically target Volume,
Feedback and wet/dry Balance. With the appropriate scaling this givs
you a volume pedal that when backed off (toe-up) fades in a frozen
delay loop of what you were playing as you did the toe-up action. From
this frozen loop state you can start playing something on the guitar
(which won't be heard as the volume pedal is silencing you instument
at toe-up position) and when you slowly lower the pedal the frozen
loop will resolve into what you are playing live that is being faded
in. At the middle position you have a very long delay applied to a
somewhat lower mixed instrument. This routing offers a fat
musical-tricks-bag while still being very simple.

I don't recall exact details, I never do because parameters with
identical functions have different names in different modules. The
delay in the GR55 is not very good though; noise artefacts happen when
parameter are modulated seamlessly. I regard the fidelity under what
is acceptable, but I did try to set up the above thingy just to
explore the units capacity and it works well.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:44 AM, mark francombe  wrote:
> Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to LD too, it has the word loop in it)
>
> i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,
> As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the
> effect mapped to same pedal.
> (the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)
>
> last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course
> i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of
> the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.
> There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show
> up as an assign parameter...
> I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably
> In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on
> it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?
>
> M
>
> Sent from my (advertisement removed)

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	, 
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"...playing together trumps playing accurately."
RICK--THAT is what I'm talking about --have been for years! Feel each other=
's groove and be there! I've only been in this state of bliss with a few pl=
ayers in my whole life!=20
I'll be using that expression this weekend at band practice!
=20

> Date: Wed=2C 6 Feb 2013 03:27:50 -0800
> From: looppool@cruzio.com
> To: perboysen@gmail.com=3B Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> Subject: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
>=20
> On 2/5/2013 4:48 AM=2C Per Boysen wrote:
> > Here it is also interesting to analyze "The Rolling Stones
> > Phenomenon"=3B several ensemble members stretching the timing into
> > different directions but still not falling out of the groove. No
> > randomization algorithm can fake that:-)
> I once heard someone mention an interview with the Stone's drummer=2C=20
> Charlie Watts.
>=20
> He said that the leader of the Stones rhythm section (unlike most other=20
> rock and roll rhythm sections who are
> led by either drummers or bassists) was Keith Richards=2C the rhythm=20
> guitarist.
>=20
> He said that Bill Wyman=2C the bassist=2C listened entirely to Richards t=
o=20
> get 'the groove' and 'the timing'.
> Watts=2C himself=2C only listened to Wyman..................so you had th=
is=20
> unusual human 'latency' train of a rhythm
> section.
>=20
> they are loose as hell but they are never playing 'wrong'. They just=20
> follow each other with a train effect.
>=20
> Fascinating because I've never heard any cover band pull off their sound=
=20
> accurately (unlike=2C say=2C the Beatles=2C
> Nirvana=2C Nine Inch Nails or other cover bands).
>=20
> Their rhythmic 'stew' just fascinates me. Once could easily write a=20
> P.H.D dissertation on it's analysis and the world
> would be the better for it.
>=20
> /R.
>=20
> ps parenthetically=2C Richards who was a constant junkie and drug=20
> addict=2C would occasionally just drop a beat=2C
> making an inadvertent 7/8 bar out of a bar of 8ths notes in 4/4.
> Wyman and Watts trained themselves to just 'hiccup' to catch up to=20
> Richards=2C knowing that he'd never
> make it back to the original time after his mistake.
>=20
> I once played with a brilliant rhythm guitarist who would very=20
> occasionally=2C just drop an 8th note in a rock groove.
> The fantastic bassist in that band and I finally realized that when he=20
> would do this=2C that 1) he didn't know he'd done
> it and 2) even if he did=2C he couldn't get back to the original groove=20
> know matter how hard he tries.
>=20
> We trained ourselves to just 'hiccup' quickly and drop a beat so that=20
> we'd always be together=2C despite the rhythmic mistake.
>=20
> This was the first time in my life where I realized that playing=20
> together always trumped playing accurately.
> It really helped me in dozens of later singer/songwriter record=20
> production sessions when talented singer/songwriters who
> were NOT accomplished musicians would come in and make rhythmic mistakes=
=20
> in the recording studios that were=2C nonetheless=2C
> musical as long as the drummer and bassist 'caught' them and played=20
> together.
>=20
> /R.
>=20
 		 	   		  =

--_6d5358b7-70ae-45e2-ac20-9ede1d7b835e_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






"...playing together trumps playing accurately."

RICK--THAT is what I'm talking about --have been for years! Feel each other=
's groove and be there! I've only been in this state of =3Bbliss =
=3Bwith a few players in my whole life! 

I'll be using that expression this weekend at band practice!
 =3B



>=3B Date: Wed=2C 6 Feb 2013 03:27:50=
 -0800
>=3B From: looppool@cruzio.com
>=3B To: perboysen@gmail.co=
m=3B Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>=3B Subject: Re: Re: Realist=
ic drum programming/recording for songs
>=3B 
>=3B On 2/5/2013 4:=
48 AM=2C Per Boysen wrote:
>=3B >=3B Here it is also interesting to =
analyze "The Rolling Stones
>=3B >=3B Phenomenon"=3B several ensembl=
e members stretching the timing into
>=3B >=3B different directions =
but still not falling out of the groove. No
>=3B >=3B randomization =
algorithm can fake that:-)
>=3B I once heard someone mention an interv=
iew with the Stone's drummer=2C 
>=3B Charlie Watts.
>=3B 
>=
=3B He said that the leader of the Stones rhythm section (unlike most other=
 
>=3B rock and roll rhythm sections who are
>=3B led by either d=
rummers or bassists) was Keith Richards=2C the rhythm 
>=3B guitarist.=

>=3B 
>=3B He said that Bill Wyman=2C the bassist=2C listened en=
tirely to Richards to 
>=3B get 'the groove' and 'the timing'.
>=
=3B Watts=2C himself=2C only listened to Wyman..................so you had =
this 
>=3B unusual human 'latency' train of a rhythm
>=3B section=
.
>=3B 
>=3B they are loose as hell but they are never playing 'w=
rong'. They just 
>=3B follow each other with a train effect.
>=
=3B 
>=3B Fascinating because I've never heard any cover band pull off=
 their sound 
>=3B accurately (unlike=2C say=2C the Beatles=2C
>=
=3B Nirvana=2C Nine Inch Nails or other cover bands).
>=3B 
>=3B =
Their rhythmic 'stew' just fascinates me. Once could easily write a 
>=
=3B P.H.D dissertation on it's analysis and the world
>=3B would be th=
e better for it.
>=3B 
>=3B /R.
>=3B 
>=3B ps parenthet=
ically=2C Richards who was a constant junkie and drug 
>=3B addict=2C =
would occasionally just drop a beat=2C
>=3B making an inadvertent 7/8 =
bar out of a bar of 8ths notes in 4/4.
>=3B Wyman and Watts trained th=
emselves to just 'hiccup' to catch up to 
>=3B Richards=2C knowing tha=
t he'd never
>=3B make it back to the original time after his mistake.=

>=3B 
>=3B I once played with a brilliant rhythm guitarist who w=
ould very 
>=3B occasionally=2C just drop an 8th note in a rock groove=
.
>=3B The fantastic bassist in that band and I finally realized that =
when he 
>=3B would do this=2C that 1) he didn't know he'd done
>=
=3B it and 2) even if he did=2C he couldn't get back to the original groove=
 
>=3B know matter how hard he tries.
>=3B 
>=3B We trained =
ourselves to just 'hiccup' quickly and drop a beat so that 
>=3B we'd =
always be together=2C despite the rhythmic mistake.
>=3B 
>=3B Th=
is was the first time in my life where I realized that playing 
>=3B t=
ogether always trumped playing accurately.
>=3B It really helped me in=
 dozens of later singer/songwriter record 
>=3B production sessions wh=
en talented singer/songwriters who
>=3B were NOT accomplished musician=
s would come in and make rhythmic mistakes 
>=3B in the recording stud=
ios that were=2C nonetheless=2C
>=3B musical as long as the drummer an=
d bassist 'caught' them and played 
>=3B together.
>=3B 
>=
=3B /R.
>=3B 
 		 	   		  

=

--_6d5358b7-70ae-45e2-ac20-9ede1d7b835e_--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb  6 23:32:07 2013
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Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 18:02:07 -0500
From: Douglas Baldwin 
Subject: Guitar looping on YouTube
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The Long Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0na2CtF3MU

Douglas Baldwin
Alpha Coyote
coyotelk@optonline.net
www.TheCoyote.org
www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 

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Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The Long 
Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight Compilation 
CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!




 


"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production 
deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 



--Boundary_(ID_/l+fZWu+F+2sYUHPZxp3oA)--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb  7 03:52:11 2013
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Subject: Re: Guitar looping on YouTube
From: Ed Durbrow 
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Nice performance, very nice. But the question that immediately jumped =
into my head was: how is your room so orderly and uncluttered?

On Feb 7, 2013, at 8:02 AM, Douglas Baldwin  =
wrote:

> Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The =
Long Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight =
Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Du0na2CtF3MU
>=20
> Douglas Baldwin
> Alpha Coyote
> coyotelk@optonline.net
> www.TheCoyote.org
> www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin
> =20
> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring =
production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.=20
> -- Frank Zappa=20

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=3Dwatch
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/




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Nice performance, very nice. =
But the question that immediately jumped into my head was: how is your =
room so orderly and uncluttered?

On Feb 7, 2013, at =
8:02 AM, Douglas Baldwin <coyotelk@optonline.net> =
wrote:

 
"Without music to =
decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or =
dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 
=




=

--Apple-Mail=_9FD77B34-B0EA-43C8-828F-CF3694509141--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb  7 06:20:09 2013
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 22:20:09 -0800
Message-ID: 
Subject: Thursday: Bill Walker & Matt Davignon in San Francisco
From: Matt Davignon 
To: Loopers Delight 
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--14dae9cdcc7540890204d51c6f3c
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Hi all,

Bill Walker and I have a show at the Luggage Store on Thursday 2/7. (Which
might be today, depending on what time you're reading this.)

I've been looking forward to having Bill at the Luggage Store in a while.

For my set, I'll be a writer named Hugh Behm-Steinberg. We've recorded his
readings into different forms of media, CDs, tapes and into my Korg
Microsampler. Both of use will be live-manipulating these sources into
improvised music.

Thu, 2/7 8:00 pm
Luggage Store Gallery
1001 Market Street @ Sixth Street
San Francisco
$6-10 sliding scale


Sorry about the late notice - I've been pulling 13 hour shifts at a
convention.

-- 
Matt Davignon
mattdavignon@gmail.com
www.ribosomemusic.com
Podcast! http://ribosomematt.podomatic.com

--14dae9cdcc7540890204d51c6f3c
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Hi all, 

Bill Walker and I have a show at the Luggage Store on Thurs=
day 2/7. (Which might be today, depending on what time you're reading t=
his.)

I've been looking forward to having Bill at the Luggage St=
ore in a while. 


For my set, I'll be a writer named Hugh Behm-Steinberg. We've r=
ecorded his readings into different forms of media, CDs, tapes and into my =
Korg Microsampler. Both of use will be live-manipulating these sources into=
 improvised music.


Thu, 2/7 8:00 pm
Luggage Store Gallery
1001 Market Street @ Sixth=
 Street
San Francisco
$6-10 sliding scale


Sorry about the =
late notice - I've been pulling 13 hour shifts at a convention. 


-- 
Matt Davignon
mattdavignon@gmail.com
www.ribosomemusic.com
Podcast! http://ribosomematt.p=
odomatic.com



--14dae9cdcc7540890204d51c6f3c--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb  7 07:32:17 2013
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--f46d042a0d552603f004d51d71b1
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That would be one not to miss! Unfortunately I'm playing in Damo Suzukis
band in Oslo, and that's 5000 miles away!

Sent from my (advertisement removed)

On 7 Feb 2013, at 07:20, Matt Davignon  wrote:

Hi all,

Bill Walker and I have a show at the Luggage Store on Thursday 2/7. (Which
might be today, depending on what time you're reading this.)

I've been looking forward to having Bill at the Luggage Store in a while.

For my set, I'll be a writer named Hugh Behm-Steinberg. We've recorded his
readings into different forms of media, CDs, tapes and into my Korg
Microsampler. Both of use will be live-manipulating these sources into
improvised music.

Thu, 2/7 8:00 pm
Luggage Store Gallery
1001 Market Street @ Sixth Street
San Francisco
$6-10 sliding scale


Sorry about the late notice - I've been pulling 13 hour shifts at a
convention.

-- 
Matt Davignon
mattdavignon@gmail.com
www.ribosomemusic.com
Podcast! http://ribosomematt.podomatic.com

--f46d042a0d552603f004d51d71b1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


That would be one not to miss! Unf=
ortunately I'm playing in Damo Suzukis band in Oslo, and that's 500=
0 miles away!


Sent from my (advertisement removed)

On 7 Feb 2013, at 07=
:20, Matt Davignon <mattdavign=
on@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi =
all, 


Bill Walker and I have a show at the Luggage Store on Thursday 2/7. (Wh=
ich might be today, depending on what time you're reading this.)
I've been looking forward to having Bill at the Luggage Store in a whi=
le. 



For my set, I'll be a writer named Hugh Behm-Steinberg. We've r=
ecorded his readings into different forms of media, CDs, tapes and into my =
Korg Microsampler. Both of use will be live-manipulating these sources into=
 improvised music.



Thu, 2/7 8:00 pm
Luggage Store Gallery
1001 Market Street @ Sixth=
 Street
San Francisco
$6-10 sliding scale


Sorry about the =
late notice - I've been pulling 13 hour shifts at a convention. 



-- 
Matt Davignon
mattdavignon@gmail.com
www.ribosomemusic.com
Podcast! http://ribosomematt.p=
odomatic.com






--f46d042a0d552603f004d51d71b1--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb  7 09:23:27 2013
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 10:23:26 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Guitar looping on YouTube
From: Per Boysen 
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Marvelous, Douglas!

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Douglas Baldwin  wrote:
> Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The Long
> Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight
> Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0na2CtF3MU
>
> Douglas Baldwin
> Alpha Coyote
> coyotelk@optonline.net
> www.TheCoyote.org
> www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin
>
> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production
> deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.
> -- Frank Zappa

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very beautiful.   Thanks for sharing, Mr. Coyote.

d
On Feb 6, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Douglas Baldwin  wrote:

> Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The Long Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0na2CtF3MU
> 
> Douglas Baldwin
> Alpha Coyote
> coyotelk@optonline.net
> www.TheCoyote.org
> www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin
>  
> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
> -- Frank Zappa 


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very beautiful.   Thanks =
for sharing, Mr. Coyote.

d
On Feb 6, =
2013, at 3:02 PM, Douglas Baldwin <coyotelk@optonline.net> =
wrote:

 
"Without music to =
decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or =
dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 
=


=

--Boundary_(ID_icA+sxyI4WD9vtUhboqdVA)--

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From: Tyler 
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:57:45 -0500
To: loopers-delight@loopers-delight.com
Cc: 
Subject: an indie music award/competition, not specifically looping,
	but you can get involved if you want
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Unable to read this email, please upgrage your mail client

--===============1318608048==
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Hello!=20There=20has=20been=20this=20competition=20that's=20been=20going=20=
on=20since=202000;=20I'm=20pretty=20sure=20entering=20
is=20free.=20Every=20week,=20the=20music=20competition=20known=20as=20Song=
=20Fight=20occurs.=20=20Musicians=20on=20the=20
internet=20visit=20the=20contest=20website,=20and=20look=20at=20what=20the=
=20song=20title=20(or=20theme)=20of=20the=20week=20is.=20
(Well,=20approximately=20one=20week).=20Musicians=20(not=20too=20much=20loo=
ping,=20but=20I'm=20sure=20they'd=20be=20
happy=20if=20some=20loopers=20joined)=20send=20the=20songs=20to=20the=20com=
petition=20by=20email.=20There=20is=20a=20guideline=20for=20what=20
the=20subject=20of=20the=20email,=20the=20body=20of=20the=20email,=20and=20=
the=20file=20name,=20whether=20attached=20or=20linked=20to,=20should=20be.=
=20
For=20example,=20from=20now=20until=20February=2012th,=20the=20theme=20is=
=20Starting=20a=20Witch=20Hunt.=20Right=20now,=20last=20
week's=20theme,=20Canadian=20Girlfriend,=20is=20displaying,=20so=20people=
=20can=20vote.=20Basically,=20this=20is=20how=20it=20
works.=20A=20few=20weeks=20ago=20the=20theme=20was=20Our=20Plans=20Are=20On=
=20Hold.=20People=20submitted=20their=20songs.=20
When=20the=20next=20theme,=20Canadian=20Girlfriend,=20was=20accepting=20sub=
missions,=20people=20were=20voting=20on=20the=20Our=20
Plans=20Are=20On=20Hold=20songs.=20When=20the=20Our=20Plans=20Are=20On=20Ho=
ld=20songs=20were=20officially=20released=20
on=20the=20virtual=20album,=20Starting=20a=20Witch=20Hunt=20became=20the=20=
official=20theme,=20and=20the=20Canadian=20
Girlfriend=20songs=20are=20being=20voted=20on.=20That=20means,=20whatever=
=20next=20competition's=20theme=20is,=20when=20people=20are=20
submitting=20their=20songs,=20they'll=20also=20be=20voting=20on=20the=20Wit=
ch=20Hunt=20songs,=20and=20the=20Canadian=20
Girlfriend=20album=20will=20be=20released.=20So=20it's=20a=20cycle.=20Here'=
s=20the=20site.
http://www.songfight.org
Tyler=20Z


--===============1318608048==--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb  7 17:07:49 2013
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Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:08:19 -0500
From: Douglas Baldwin 
Subject: Re: Guitar looping on YouTube
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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The reason why the room is so orderly is... it's not my room!

The performance was taped at a local cable TV studio, part of a series called "Wes Houston Presents..." Lotsa good local original music in every possible genre. Even looping!

Thanks to all for the kind comments. Constructive criticism is also quite welcome.

Douglas Baldwin
Alpha Coyote
coyotelk@optonline.net
www.TheCoyote.org
www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ed Durbrow 
  To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:52 PM
  Subject: Re: Guitar looping on YouTube


  Nice performance, very nice. But the question that immediately jumped into my head was: how is your room so orderly and uncluttered?


  On Feb 7, 2013, at 8:02 AM, Douglas Baldwin  wrote:


    Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The Long Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0na2CtF3MU

    Douglas Baldwin
    Alpha Coyote
    coyotelk@optonline.net
    www.TheCoyote.org
    www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin

    "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
    -- Frank Zappa 



  Ed Durbrow
  Saitama, Japan
  http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
  http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/






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The reason why the room is so orderly is... it's not my room!


 


The performance was taped at a local cable TV studio, part of a series 
called "Wes Houston Presents..." Lotsa good local original music in every 
possible genre. Even looping!


 


Thanks to all for the kind comments. Constructive criticism is also quite 
welcome.



 


"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production 
deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  
From: 
  Ed 
  Durbrow 

  
  
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:52 
  PM

  
Subject: Re: Guitar looping on 
  YouTube

  

Nice performance, very nice. But the question that immediately 
  jumped into my head was: how is your room so orderly and uncluttered?
  


  

  
On Feb 7, 2013, at 8:02 AM, Douglas Baldwin <coyotelk@optonline.net> 
  wrote:


  

    

    
Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The Long 
    Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight 
    Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!

    
    
    
 

    
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring 
    production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 


  


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From: William Walker 
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> That would be one not to miss! Unfortunately I'm playing in Damo  
> Suzukis band in Oslo, and that's 5000 miles away!


Thanks mark, I'm sorry I booked it on the same night damn!
Bill
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That would be one not to miss! Unfortunately I'm playing in Damo Suzukis band in Oslo, and that's 5000 miles away!


Thanks mark, I'm sorry I booked it on the same night damn! 
Bill

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From: Bill Fox 
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Subject: Listen to Galactic Travels
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GALACTIC TRAVELS ON WDIY: http://galactictravels.info
=======================================================================
Tonight at 11 pm EST/GMT-5 on Galactic Travels, I'll begin a month-long
Special Focus on Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured CD at
Midnight will be "Grow" on Bogus Focus Records.  The Special Focus page
is at: http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show that
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and
Bethlehem, 93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville
and Trexlertown, on the internet, and in High Definition Radio at 88.1
FM.  Listen at http://wdiy.org on the internet.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb  7 22:32:19 2013
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"...playing together trumps playing accurately."

Great quote!
Buzap


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From: Steven Clements 
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 17:48:23 -0700
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I just got a Vortex Mark!

Can you explain how you do that in greater detail?

Thanks
Steve

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:44 PM, mark francombe wrote:

> Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to LD too, it has the word loop
> in it)
>
> i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,
> As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the
> effect mapped to same pedal.
> (the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)
>
> last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course
> i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of
> the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.
> There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show
> up as an assign parameter...
> I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably
> In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on
> it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?
>
> M
>
> Sent from my (advertisement removed)
>
>

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I just got a Vortex Mark!

Can you explain how you do that in greater=
 detail?

Thanks
Steve

On Tue, F=
eb 5, 2013 at 11:44 PM, mark francombe <markfrancombe@gmail.com&=
gt; wrote:



Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to =
LD too, it has the word loop in it)



i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,

As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the

effect mapped to same pedal.

(the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)



last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course

i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of

the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.

There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show

up as an assign parameter...

I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably

In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on

it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?



M



Sent from my (advertisement removed)







--bcaec55400701a3da804d52bed5a--

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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:07:18 -0500
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Cloud loops on the GR55
From: Jeff Duke 
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--047d7bdc11e444fa5a04d52c2ed5
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If you go to the Loopers Delight Tools page's *
http://www.loopers-delight.com/tools/vortex/vortapnt.html : Scroll down to:
Vortex...it's a looping sampler!* This is where I learned it. I also do it
with Fractal 16 a & b.

Jeff

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:48 PM, Steven Clements wrote:

> I just got a Vortex Mark!
>
> Can you explain how you do that in greater detail?
>
> Thanks
> Steve
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:44 PM, mark francombe wrote:
>
>> Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to LD too, it has the word loop
>> in it)
>>
>> i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,
>> As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the
>> effect mapped to same pedal.
>> (the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)
>>
>> last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course
>> i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of
>> the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.
>> There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show
>> up as an assign parameter...
>> I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably
>> In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on
>> it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?
>>
>> M
>>
>> Sent from my (advertisement removed)
>>
>>
>

--047d7bdc11e444fa5a04d52c2ed5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you go to the Loopers Delight Tools page's http://www.loopers-delight.=
com/tools/vortex/vortapnt.html : Scroll down to: Vortex...it's a lo=
oping sampler! This is where I learned it. I also do it with Fractal 16=
 a & b.


Jeff

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:48 PM, =
Steven Clements <sdclements@gmail.com> wrote:

I just got a Vortex Mark!

Can you explain how you do that in greater=
 detail?

Thanks
Steve

On Tue, F=
eb 5, 2013 at 11:44 PM, mark francombe <markfrancombe@gmail.com&=
gt; wrote:




Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to =
LD too, it has the word loop in it)



i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,

As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the

effect mapped to same pedal.

(the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)



last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course

i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of

the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.

There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show

up as an assign parameter...

I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably

In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on

it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?



M



Sent from my (advertisement removed)










--047d7bdc11e444fa5a04d52c2ed5--

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--f46d042de92dcec15c04d531b381
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Hi Steve, I dont have my Vortex in front of me right now, but the main
looping preset, is it Duo? I think its just morphing between a and b, with
some tweaks.. Cant be sure tho... but it is simply to have one of the
presets set to the looping patch with no further input allowed... and any
other patch that has delay--- then you can morph to it, and the delay is
frozen...

M




On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Steven Clements wrote:

> I just got a Vortex Mark!
>
> Can you explain how you do that in greater detail?
>
> Thanks
> Steve
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:44 PM, mark francombe wrote:
>
>> Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to LD too, it has the word loop
>> in it)
>>
>> i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,
>> As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the
>> effect mapped to same pedal.
>> (the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)
>>
>> last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course
>> i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of
>> the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.
>> There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show
>> up as an assign parameter...
>> I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably
>> In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on
>> it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?
>>
>> M
>>
>> Sent from my (advertisement removed)
>>
>>
>


-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--f46d042de92dcec15c04d531b381
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Steve, I dont have my Vortex in front of me right now, =
but the main looping preset, is it Duo? I think its just morphing between a=
 and b, with some tweaks.. Cant be sure tho... but it is simply to have one=
 of the presets set to the looping patch with no further input allowed... a=
nd any other patch that has delay--- then you can morph to it, and the dela=
y is frozen...



M




On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:4=
8 AM, Steven Clements <sdclements@gmail.com> wrote:



I just got a Vortex Mark!

Can you exp=
lain how you do that in greater detail?

Thanks
Steve





On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at=
 11:44 PM, mark francombe <markfrancombe@gmail.com> wr=
ote:





Hey Per, (decided at last minute to post to =
LD too, it has the word loop in it)



i know you Are fan of what i call Cloud loops, I Do/did it on vortex,

As In delay feedback mapped to pedal, and Negative level In to the

effect mapped to same pedal.

(the more feedback the less you let into the overdub)



last night i was trying to Build this In gr55, with no luck. of course

i go the pedal controlling feedback working, of course using one of

the 8 assigns. BUT i couldnt find a level control for input to delay.

There is a send level as part of the delay effect, but it doesnt show

up as an assign parameter...

I know you have a new shiny favorite toy, and the poor gr is probably

In a cupboard, or sold, but if you ever tried to make this effect on

it, maybe you have hint as to what you did?



M



Sent from my (advertisement removed)










-- 
=
Mark Francombe


www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com


http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no


twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
<=
/font>



--f46d042de92dcec15c04d531b381--

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Hi Steven.

That's actually just how the feedback control works in *some* Vortex algorithms.

As feedback is increased the input to the delay is decreased, so simply assign
the expression pedal to feedback and it starts to work.

If necessary I can find up my notes on which presets to use,
but it's easy enough to find out by experimenting.

So, no need to set up a morph at first, although that's
the way to go for the more spectacular effects.

andy
oh hang on, everything you need to know about Vortex as an echo/loop
is here:
http://www.andybutler.com/vortex/vortecho.htm


Steven Clements wrote:
> I just got a Vortex Mark!
> 
> Can you explain how you do that in greater detail?
> 
> Thanks
> Steve
> 

> 

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I've been scanning/reading this list on and off for 15 years and that was on=
e of the most useful threads I've yet read.=20

Thank you all for your time.=20


---Christopher Darrow
       503.327.9329

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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:13:40 -0800
Message-ID: 
Subject: OT: Data Recovery
From: Kevin Cheli-Colando 
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Anyone got any experience with using a data recovery service in the
US?  I've tried all user options I can come up with and now faced with
the expensive task of sending it off for recovery.  So if anyone has
any experience to share on this I'd be quite grateful.

Kevin

-- 
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb  8 18:34:59 2013
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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:34:58 -0500
Message-ID: 
Subject: Experimental instruments
From: Tony K 
To: loopers-delight 
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This found its way to my attention a few days ago.  I know there are
people on here to like to experiment with instruments.

http://windworld.com/products-page/books-cds/nice-noise-preparations-and-modifications-for-guitar/

Enjoy

-- 
-==-=-=-
Tony

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I used these guys before:
http://www.drivesaversdatarecovery.com/

They did an excellent job recovering my entire drive.

JC Mendizabal
Black Note Music
http://www.blacknotemusic.com
http://soundcloud.com/kyron
http://soundcloud.com/rfcl
https://soundcloud.com/prospero2013

Other Sites
http://rfcl.tumblr.com/
http://www.radiofreeclearlight.com
http://maddogmagick.blogspot.com/
http://secretsareeverywhere.blogspot.com/


On 2/8/2013 9:13 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:
> Anyone got any experience with using a data recovery service in the
> US?  I've tried all user options I can come up with and now faced with
> the expensive task of sending it off for recovery.  So if anyone has
> any experience to share on this I'd be quite grateful.
>
> Kevin
>

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Subject: Re: OT: Data Recovery
From: Philip Clevenger 
In-Reply-To: <51155955.9030501@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 12:06:11 -0800
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Ditto. Not cheap by a long shot, but they are quite reputable, and saved =
both my data and my butt.=20

On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:00 PM, JC  wrote:

> I used these guys before:
> http://www.drivesaversdatarecovery.com/
>=20
> They did an excellent job recovering my entire drive.
>=20
> JC Mendizabal
> Black Note Music
> http://www.blacknotemusic.com
> http://soundcloud.com/kyron
> http://soundcloud.com/rfcl
> https://soundcloud.com/prospero2013
>=20
> Other Sites
> http://rfcl.tumblr.com/
> http://www.radiofreeclearlight.com
> http://maddogmagick.blogspot.com/
> http://secretsareeverywhere.blogspot.com/
>=20
>=20
> On 2/8/2013 9:13 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:
>> Anyone got any experience with using a data recovery service in the
>> US?  I've tried all user options I can come up with and now faced =
with
>> the expensive task of sending it off for recovery.  So if anyone has
>> any experience to share on this I'd be quite grateful.
>>=20
>> Kevin
>>=20
>=20

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb  8 20:55:26 2013
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Subject: Galactic Travels Playlist #827 for February 7, 2013.
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http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/130207.html

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show, that
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem,
PA, 93.9 FM in Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville
and Trexlertown, and webcasting on the internet.  WDIY also broadcasts
in Digital HD at 88.1 FM.

Show #827 February 7, 2013.
WDIY Playlist:
http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels?playlist_date=02-07-2013

RECAP:
On this show, I began a month-long focus on Joint Intelligence
Committee.  The Featured CD at Midnight was "Grow" on Bogus Focus
Records.http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb


PLAYLIST:

11:04 pm
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
Kevin Braheny        Starflight 1 *       Galaxies (Hearts of Space)
Paul Lawler and      Improvisation-1      Jam Sessions Vol. 1 (Paul
   Paul Nagle                                Lawler Music)
Arttek               Saturn               Hatchlins (none)
VA [kirchenkampf]    aliensapipens        Doomsday and Brimstone (Sound
                                             for Good)
Premonition Factory  Every Second         The Theory of Nothing (none)
Dirk Serries         There's a Light In   Microphonics XXI-XXV
                        Vein                 (Tonefloat)
JIC                  Tribal High          Grow (Bogus Focus)


12:00 am
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
JIC                  Ed Wood              Grow (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Best Before End      Grow (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Angels, Pins, and    Grow (Bogus Focus)
                        Nipple Clamps
JIC                  Dimensional          Grow (Bogus Focus)
                        Distortion
JIC                  Totally Fine         Grow (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  (The Look) In Your   Grow (Bogus Focus)
                        Eyes
JIC                  Grow                 Grow (Bogus Focus)


1:00 am

  * = excerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)
++ = Advance CDR from Artist
-- = Background music under interview


NEXT SHOW:
On the next Galactic Travels, I'll continue the month-long focus on
Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured CD at Midnight will be "In
Session (AM Mix)" on Bogus Focus Records.

WDIY Announcement: http://wdiy.org/post/next-galactic-travels-2013-02-14

Bill
========================================================================
Host of Galactic Travels, an electronic, ambient, and space music show,
Thursdays at 11:04 pm EST/GMT-5 on WDIY 88.1 FM in Allentown and
Bethlehem, 93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, and on 93.7 FM in
Trexlertown and Fogelsville.  WDIY also broadcasts in HD Digital Radio
on 88.1 FM.
Galactic Travels web site: http://galactictravels.info
Listen to WDIY at http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels on-line.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb  8 23:16:07 2013
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From: Steven Clements 
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Subject: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
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--f46d04016fa16958a104d53ebeda
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my point is... :)

1,000 increments is too large of an estimate given the dynamic range of
human hearing and the JND of the human auditory system.

but... I agree live drums, live drummer, acoustic kit... it's those shades
and nuances that make it so alive... unless yer going for 909 dance tracks

:)

peace
Steve

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Steven Clements wrote:

> Hey Rick
>
> I would agree with loads of what you said.  I think that real drummers
> with real drums on to two track tape would be the best.
>
> One thing I'd love to have is a reference for this: "human ear has the
> ability to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume"  I'd like to read
> that.  Of course if it was merely a colloquialism pay no mind to my
> ramblings.
>
> As far as I know JND in dB is approximately 0.5dB and of course is
> frequency as well as level dependent; given a typical dynamic range 1,000
> increments seems incredible.
>
> Amen to Max Roach :)
>
> Steven
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Rick Walker  wrote:
>
>> On 2/4/13 10:01 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando wrote:
>>
>>> I think Rick has already written a very extensive primer on this
>>> subject.  Should be in the archives if those are still working.
>>>
>> I have a column at www.livelooping.org called "Rick's Ramblings",
>> just musings about live looping and related things.
>>
>> I posted a column and cited what I'd written earlier about this topicboth
>> here
>> and at tribe.net (back when I used to be very heavily involved with that
>> site
>> before it's owner sabotaged it).
>>
>> http://www.livelooping.org/**history_concepts/ricks-**
>> ramblings/making-drum-**programming-hipper/
>>
>> Also, I record and program for people all the time, remotely. Even though
>> I'm a drummer,
>> I find that the inaccuracies of midi (I'll talk about that in a moment)
>> make it so that
>> programmingdrums sound better and more 'realistic' than recording midi
>> files on drum pads.
>> I charge between $100 and $150 per song depending on how long it takes me.
>> In terms of time, recording drums for a project acoustically costs about
>> the same time, with the exception
>> that I thrown in my own recording studio for free when I do acoustic
>> recording.
>>
>> Sometimes, I actually prefer to program electronic drums instead of play
>> acoustic ones because I
>> want an edgy modern vibe to a track. I actually love analogue drum
>> machines and creative digital
>> sound design in programming (making one's own new percussionsounds).   I
>> even like using
>> old school analogue drum machines that are uber minimalistic and then
>> using realdrums to augment.
>> The first time I ever saw UltraVox in the 70's, their drumplayed kick,
>> snare and hi hat against an old
>> Roland CR-78 drum machine. I was transfixed at how cool and unusual this
>> sounded.
>>
>>
>> Also, to me, there are some drawbacks to using drummers midi trackstaken
>> from
>> real playing situations on electronic drum pads.   It may just be a
>> matter of taste but
>> here aresome of the reasons:
>>
>> 1)  Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. The human ear has the
>> ability to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume that are discernable.
>> Midi volume is sometimes woefully inadequate in recreating realistic
>> drumming that sounds like acoustic drumming for this reason
>>
>> 2) We can shape electronic drum sounds, individually with equalizationand
>> with filters (which just another form of equilization)but we can only use
>> subtractive equalization (cutoff filters)to approximate people hitting
>> things harder or quieter.   Don't filter a hi hat hitand make it louder to
>> approximate the loudest sound you can make. Reduce it's volume and cut off
>> some of the high end frequencies to approximate it when it is hit more
>> quietly. You can use additive equalization to by boosting resonance or
>> tightening the "Q" of a sound,  but this doesn't sound realistic,
>> unfortunately.
>>
>> 3) Multi-samples and Crossfading are frequently used to try and
>> approximate what a drummer doesfor more realism:
>>
>> Go listen to a Max Roach hi hat solo that lasts for 20 minutes. Think
>> about it.    You'd need thousands of individual samples to approximate all
>> the sounds he gets out of a cymbal.
>>
>> Allof these intrinsic problems can be dealt with in creative ways but it
>> takes a lot of knowledge to do so.
>>
>> So that brings us to algorithmic drum programs of which there are several
>> on the market.
>>
>> Honestly,  I think they create really cool sounding percussion/drumtracks
>> but they never sound
>> like a real drum drummingto me.   If you like how they sound, however,
>> and I know a lot of people who use
>> these programs in their solo work, then they are valid.
>>
>> I also know musicians who use drum recordings from sample libraries and
>> then edit them very carefully.
>> One guy I know, Si Moorehead, makes metal tracks that you could NEVER
>> tell were put together only with samples. He's a genius!
>>
>>
>

--f46d04016fa16958a104d53ebeda
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

my point is... :)

1,000 increments is too large of an estimate given=
 the dynamic range of human hearing and the JND of the human auditory syste=
m.

but... I agree live drums, live drummer, acoustic kit... it's=
 those shades and nuances that make it so alive... unless yer going for 909=
 dance tracks



:)

peace
Steve

On Tue, Feb =
5, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Steven Clements <sdclements@gmail.com> wrote:



Hey Rick

I would agree with loads of =
what you said.=C2=A0 I think that real drummers with real drums on to two t=
rack tape would be the best.=C2=A0 



One thing I'd love to have is a reference for this: "human ear=
 has the ability to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume"=C2=A0 I&#=
39;d like to read that.=C2=A0 Of course if it was merely a colloquialism pa=
y no mind to my ramblings.




As far as I know JND in dB is approximately 0.5dB and of course is freq=
uency as well as level dependent; given a typical dynamic range 1,000 incre=
ments seems incredible.

Amen to Max Roach :)<=
font color=3D"#888888">



Steven





On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Rick Wal=
ker <looppool@cruzio.com> wrote:


On 2/4/13 10:01 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando=
 wrote:



I think Rick has already written a very extensive primer on this

subject. =C2=A0Should be in the archives if those are still working.



I have a column at www.livelooping.org called "Rick's Ramblings",

just musings about live looping and related things.



I posted a column and cited what I'd written earlier about this topicbo=
th here

and at tribe.net (back w=
hen I used to be very heavily involved with that site

before it's owner sabotaged it).



http://www.livelooping.org/<=
u>history_concepts/ricks-ramblings/making-drum-programmin=
g-hipper/







Also, I record and program for people all the time, remotely. Even though I=
'm a drummer,

I find that the inaccuracies of midi (I'll talk about that in a moment)=
 make it so that

programmingdrums sound better and more 'realistic' than recording m=
idi files on drum pads.

I charge between $100 and $150 per song depending on how long it takes me.<=
br>
In terms of time, recording drums for a project acoustically costs about th=
e same time, with the exception

that I thrown in my own recording studio for free when I do acoustic record=
ing.



Sometimes, I actually prefer to program electronic drums instead of play ac=
oustic ones because I

want an edgy modern vibe to a track. I actually love analogue drum machines=
 and creative digital

sound design in programming (making one's own new percussionsounds). =
=C2=A0 I even like using

old school analogue drum machines that are uber minimalistic and then using=
 realdrums to augment.

The first time I ever saw UltraVox in the 70's, their drumplayed kick, =
snare and hi hat against an old

Roland CR-78 drum machine. I was transfixed at how cool and unusual this so=
unded.





Also, to me, there are some drawbacks to using drummers midi trackstaken fr=
om

real playing situations on electronic drum pads. =C2=A0 It may just be a ma=
tter of taste but

here aresome of the reasons:



1) =C2=A0Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. The human ear has the ab=
ility to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume that are discernable. Midi=
 volume is sometimes woefully inadequate in recreating realistic drumming t=
hat sounds like acoustic drumming for this reason







2) We can shape electronic drum sounds, individually with equalizationand w=
ith filters (which just another form of equilization)but we can only use su=
btractive equalization (cutoff filters)to approximate people hitting things=
 harder or quieter. =C2=A0 Don't filter a hi hat hitand make it louder =
to approximate the loudest sound you can make. Reduce it's volume and c=
ut off some of the high end frequencies to approximate it when it is hit mo=
re quietly. You can use additive equalization to by boosting resonance or t=
ightening the "Q" of a sound, =C2=A0but this doesn't sound re=
alistic, unfortunately.







3) Multi-samples and Crossfading are frequently used to try and approximate=
 what a drummer doesfor more realism:



Go listen to a Max Roach hi hat solo that lasts for 20 minutes. Think about=
 it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0You'd need thousands of individual samples to approxi=
mate all the sounds he gets out of a cymbal.



Allof these intrinsic problems can be dealt with in creative ways but it ta=
kes a lot of knowledge to do so.



So that brings us to algorithmic drum programs of which there are several o=
n the market.



Honestly, =C2=A0I think they create really cool sounding percussion/drumtra=
cks but they never sound

like a real drum drummingto me. =C2=A0 If you like how they sound, however,=
 and I know a lot of people who use

these programs in their solo work, then they are valid.



I also know musicians who use drum recordings from sample libraries and the=
n edit them very carefully.

One guy I know, Si Moorehead, makes metal tracks that you could NEVER tell =
were put together only with samples. He's a genius!










--f46d04016fa16958a104d53ebeda--

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From: RP Collier 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--190913979
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Subject: scoring and notation software
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 16:06:15 -0800
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--Apple-Mail-4--190913979
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Hi

Is there any music scoring/notation software that you can drop an  
audio track into
and the program will map the audio in sheet music notation so you can  
print it out as sheet music?

As in automatically with as little typing input and twiddling as  
possible?

Accuracy isn't even really an issue. Some interesting variations might  
arise from inaccuracies.


BobC



http://rpcollier.bandcamp.com/album/iterations
--Apple-Mail-4--190913979
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	charset=US-ASCII
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Hi

Is there any music scoring/notation software that you can drop an audio track into
and the program will map the audio in sheet music notation so you can print it out as sheet music?

As in automatically with as little typing input and twiddling as possible?

Accuracy isn't even really an issue. Some interesting variations might arise from inaccuracies.


BobC




--Apple-Mail-4--190913979--

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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 01:19:55 +0100
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Subject: Re: scoring and notation software
From: Per Boysen 
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Hi Bob,

The plugin and application Melodyne does convert an audio file of
multi part music into MIDI. If you run the Melodyne plugin inside a
DAW with score printing you can tidy it up and press Print (Logic,
Cubase, Pro Tools, DP...).

The soon to ship Ableton Live version 9 will also be able to analyze
multi part audio and make a MIDI file of it. But Live doesn't have a
score edit.

If the audio file is monophonic (not recorded multi part music) I
think most DAWs can convert it to MIDI. For Logic, that I prefer, this
has been possible for... well many years, don't remember when this
function first came. I often use it to make string or synth parts: I
grab my Stratocaster, plug it in, play the line and convert the audio
to MIDI before patching up a synth or nice sampler patch to it.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:06 AM, RP Collier  wrote:
> Hi
>
> Is there any music scoring/notation software that you can drop an audio
> track into
> and the program will map the audio in sheet music notation so you can print
> it out as sheet music?
>
> As in automatically with as little typing input and twiddling as possible?
>
> Accuracy isn't even really an issue. Some interesting variations might arise
> from inaccuracies.
>
>
> BobC
>
>
>
> http://rpcollier.bandcamp.com/album/iterations

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On Feb 8, 2013, at 4:19 PM, Per Boysen wrote:

> The plugin and application Melodyne does convert an audio file of
> multi part music into MIDI. If you run the Melodyne plugin inside a
> DAW with score printing you can tidy it up and press Print (Logic,


Thanks, Per.

So the piano roll is rendered into notation?


BobC
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On Feb 8, 2013, =
at 4:19 PM, Per Boysen wrote:

The plugin =
and application Melodyne does convert an audio file of
multi part =
music into MIDI. If you run the Melodyne plugin inside a
DAW with =
score printing you can tidy it up and press Print =
(Logic,


Thanks, =
Per.

So the piano roll is rendered into =
notation?


BobC
=

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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 01:42:21 +0100
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On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:30 AM, RP Collier  wrote:
> So the piano roll is rendered into notation?

If the question is about Logic, and similar DAWs, the piano roll is
one music editor and the score is another music editor. Just two
alternate ways to display the music you are working on in the DAW. But
the score edit usually has a Print function as well. I'm not aware of
anything that can "render a score" because a score always needs smart
(human) decisions on how to make it optimally readable for the
musicians (that is going to perform reading the score). In Logic and
similar DAWs you do not have support for a full score vs individual
musician's/sections parts. If you need that distinction a full-fledged
score editing application would be appropriate, like Sibelius or
Finale.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Y'all rock

thanks a bundle!

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 3:10 AM, andy butler  wrote:

>
> Hi Steven.
>
> That's actually just how the feedback control works in *some* Vortex
> algorithms.
>
> As feedback is increased the input to the delay is decreased, so simply
> assign
> the expression pedal to feedback and it starts to work.
>
> If necessary I can find up my notes on which presets to use,
> but it's easy enough to find out by experimenting.
>
> So, no need to set up a morph at first, although that's
> the way to go for the more spectacular effects.
>
> andy
> oh hang on, everything you need to know about Vortex as an echo/loop
> is here:
> http://www.andybutler.com/**vortex/vortecho.htm
>
>
>
> Steven Clements wrote:
>
>> I just got a Vortex Mark!
>>
>> Can you explain how you do that in greater detail?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Steve
>>
>>
>
>>
>

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Y'all rock

thanks a bundle!

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 3:10 AM, andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:





Hi Steven.



That's actually just how the feedback control works in *some* Vortex algorithms.



As feedback is increased the input to the delay is decreased, so simply assign

the expression pedal to feedback and it starts to work.



If necessary I can find up my notes on which presets to use,

but it's easy enough to find out by experimenting.



So, no need to set up a morph at first, although that's

the way to go for the more spectacular effects.



andy

oh hang on, everything you need to know about Vortex as an echo/loop

is here:

http://www.andybutler.com/vortex/vortecho.htm






Steven Clements wrote:



I just got a Vortex Mark!



Can you explain how you do that in greater detail?



Thanks

Steve



















--bcaec5524516edba3404d5436f30--

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Steven Clements wrote:
> my point is... :)
> 
> 1,000 increments is too large of an estimate given the dynamic range of 
> human hearing and the JND of the human auditory system.

Makes sense, and in the mix most of the increments will be inaudible.

...but we know for certain that 128 increments is inadequate a lot
of the time.


What I'd also like to point out is that the assumption in all this
rhythm talk is that loudness and timing are unrelated in human perception.

These days I don't think you'd find it in a music textbook, 
but I'm sure that I've seen the older ones mention that an
accent can be achieved by playing a note slightly early.

Some of this has to be related to the attack of the note, obviously
if the attack is slow then the louder it is the earlier you will hear it.


On the other hand, did anyone ever measure how the latency of perception
is related to loudness? 
Even just considering that a loud hit might actually be perceived as
earlier opens up a lot of possibilities.


andy

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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 11:36:04 +0100
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On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 9:52 AM, andy butler  wrote:
> On the other hand, did anyone ever measure how the latency of perception
> is related to loudness? Even just considering that a loud hit might actually
> be perceived as
> earlier opens up a lot of possibilities.


No, didn't see any one noticing this before. Very interesting, Andy.
Makes me think about those occasions when you find yourself reacting
to a sudden loud sound before "hearing it". But that was not your
point :-) so yes the louder the more probable to be experienced more
"early" and this must have to do with the tendency of the brain to act
on the very first calculations of an incoming sound; treating it as a
"gesture" and not waiting for the full sound but just making an
educated guess based on the initial attack of the sound. Modern
programmed electronic dance music draws on this phenomenon a lot,
creating musical experiences based on millisecond dependent timing
relations between layered sounds.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Hello!

I am programming the FCB1010 with UnO Chip to control the Octatrack.
I have a MidiPal from Mutable Instruments with which I can see that each sw=
itch sends other midi info (which I ignore what) other than the note on com=
mand (which is the only one which I am aware to have activated).
The Uno Manual and the original one have some lacks in some steps of the se=
tup but I have tried many things and I still have for example a strange pro=
blem with Switch 7=2C it send a command which soloes the active track of th=
e Octatrack=2C even if it is programmed just to send a command to stop the =
sequencer. No way.
Tips?
I tried to understand how to reset the pedal but I could not find a way.

Thanks!
 		 	   		  =

--_98603559-4a1d-4a4e-9a5f-20be47b8b0cb_
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Hello!

I am programming the FCB1010 with UnO Chip to control the Oct=
atrack.
I have a MidiPal from Mutable Instruments with which I can see t=
hat each switch sends other midi info (which I ignore what) other than the =
note on command (which is the only one which I am aware to have activated).=

The Uno Manual and the original one have some lacks in some steps of th=
e setup but I have tried many things and I still have for example a strange=
 problem with Switch 7=2C it send a command which soloes the active track o=
f the Octatrack=2C even if it is programmed just to send a command to stop =
the sequencer. No way.
Tips?
I tried to understand how to reset the p=
edal but I could not find a way.

Thanks!
 		 	   		  

=

--_98603559-4a1d-4a4e-9a5f-20be47b8b0cb_--

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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 13:27:26 +0100
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Subject: Re: FCB1010 with UNO Chip strange behaviour.
From: Per Boysen 
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Two things to watch out for with the FCB1010:

1) They ship pre programmed for some Behringer guitar pre amp. This
means that the stomp switches are programmed to send several
simultaneous MIDI events. To make it useful as a playable controller
you need to program the FCB1010 to send only one MIDI event per stomp
switch (or several if you know what you are doing in order to control
several targeted parameters form one switch).

2) The FCB1010 leak random MIDI #CC data that you have not programmed
it to send. I have owned 3 FCBs and they all hat this issue. I found a
solution for this by setting up a MIDI filter between the FCB1010 and
the rack with my gear; I programmed the filter to only let through the
exact MIDI events I was using for my receiving gear. This helped a
little, but it did not help when the FCB happened to leak out a random
event that actually was one that I had programmed some function in my
gear to act upon.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Sergio Girardi  wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I am programming the FCB1010 with UnO Chip to control the Octatrack.
> I have a MidiPal from Mutable Instruments with which I can see that each
> switch sends other midi info (which I ignore what) other than the note on
> command (which is the only one which I am aware to have activated).
> The Uno Manual and the original one have some lacks in some steps of the
> setup but I have tried many things and I still have for example a strange
> problem with Switch 7, it send a command which soloes the active track of
> the Octatrack, even if it is programmed just to send a command to stop the
> sequencer. No way.
> Tips?
> I tried to understand how to reset the pedal but I could not find a way.
>
> Thanks!

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sat Feb  9 12:29:06 2013
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On 2/8/2013 10:34 AM, Tony K wrote:
> This found its way to my attention a few days ago.  I know there are
> people on here to like to experiment with instruments.
>
> http://windworld.com/products-page/books-cds/nice-noise-preparations-and-modifications-for-guitar/
>
> Enjoy

I ordered this today,   thanks for the tip.    Bart Hopkins has been a 
constant inspiration in my own life.
I'm glad to see this publication.

It inspires me.   I'll start a new thread here based on this post!!!

thanks, Tony!

>

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sat Feb  9 14:14:14 2013
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Tony's post about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar Preparation got me 
inspired.

I have experimented with a lot of different ways to "prepare" 
instruments for unconventional
performance.

I thought it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways 
everyone on this list has
figured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.


My own tiny arsenal for guitar and other string 'preparation':


1)  large and tiny alligagor clips   (the size has a huge impact on the 
resultant timbre so try lots of different sizes)
2) Magnets-   from very tiny (Bucky Balls) to very large ones (these are 
very hip, especially when attached to alligator clips)
3)  Martini skewers  (I particularly love a set of blue plastic Tiki 
ones that I found because they have
      incredible bounce characteristic (not unlike hammer dulcimer 
mallets) and you can turn them over
      and use them as tiny plastic 'slides'  to change the pitch of the 
instrument
4)  Suzuki 1/16 sized bows..................amazing and only  $25 USD 
for a wonderful approach to any string instrument
5)  E-bows and, better yet,  multiple E-bows..............make any 
multiple string instrument with metal strings a fantastic drone instrument
6)  Metallic Chinese 'health' balls (the ones that have little chimes 
inside of them).............try rolling these guys down any string 
instrument
        for random pitch shifting experiments
7)   Brushes of all kinds:
        a)  vegetable brushes  (they come in varying 'stiffnesses' so 
their texture is different
        b)  metallic (careful, these eat up strings on good 
instruments)  I love the kinds used , specifically, for flea eradication 
on pets
        c)  the ones that come off of temporary hair dye products 
(specifically on 'Dye Hard' products or Hot Topic 'Temporary Dye' products
        d) any drum stick or mallet you can think of (I particularly 
love velcro-ing different kinds of bells and rattle sounds to strikers 
like this)
  8)   Slides of any kind  (glass, metal, ceramic, bottle caps, backs of 
finger nails,  any damn thing)
9)     Vibrators  (again, anything--- back massagers, dildos, clitoral 
vibrators,  anything that vibrates a string potentially)
10)   Drills (again, anything that attaches to a drill that can cause 
rapid re-playing of the string---Eddie Van Halen, notroriously used
           guitar picks inbedded into a drill bit that allowed for 
hyper, faster than human,  picking techniques.
11)   Okay, there are more but I"m running out of steam...
12)   What the f*ck else?

Rick Walker

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sat Feb  9 16:32:22 2013
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Did you run the memory initialization routine?
 
From the UNO manual:
On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Rick Wal=
ker <looppool@cruzio.com> wrote:


On 2/4/13 10:01 AM, Kevin Cheli-Colando=
 wrote:



I think Rick has already written a very extensive primer on this

subject. =C2=A0Should be in the archives if those are still working.



I have a column at www.livelooping.org called "Rick's Ramblings",

just musings about live looping and related things.



I posted a column and cited what I'd written earlier about this topicbo=
th here

and at tribe.net (back w=
hen I used to be very heavily involved with that site

before it's owner sabotaged it).



http://www.livelooping.org/<=
u>history_concepts/ricks-ramblings/making-drum-programmin=
g-hipper/






Also, I record and program for people all the time, remotely. Even though I=
'm a drummer,

I find that the inaccuracies of midi (I'll talk about that in a moment)=
 make it so that

programmingdrums sound better and more 'realistic' than recording m=
idi files on drum pads.

I charge between $100 and $150 per song depending on how long it takes me.<=
br>
In terms of time, recording drums for a project acoustically costs about th=
e same time, with the exception

that I thrown in my own recording studio for free when I do acoustic record=
ing.



Sometimes, I actually prefer to program electronic drums instead of play ac=
oustic ones because I

want an edgy modern vibe to a track. I actually love analogue drum machines=
 and creative digital

sound design in programming (making one's own new percussionsounds). =
=C2=A0 I even like using

old school analogue drum machines that are uber minimalistic and then using=
 realdrums to augment.

The first time I ever saw UltraVox in the 70's, their drumplayed kick, =
snare and hi hat against an old

Roland CR-78 drum machine. I was transfixed at how cool and unusual this so=
unded.





Also, to me, there are some drawbacks to using drummers midi trackstaken fr=
om

real playing situations on electronic drum pads. =C2=A0 It may just be a ma=
tter of taste but

here aresome of the reasons:



1) =C2=A0Midi only has 127 increments of velocity. The human ear has the ab=
ility to hear up to a 1,000 increments in volume that are discernable. Midi=
 volume is sometimes woefully inadequate in recreating realistic drumming t=
hat sounds like acoustic drumming for this reason






2) We can shape electronic drum sounds, individually with equalizationand w=
ith filters (which just another form of equilization)but we can only use su=
btractive equalization (cutoff filters)to approximate people hitting things=
 harder or quieter. =C2=A0 Don't filter a hi hat hitand make it louder =
to approximate the loudest sound you can make. Reduce it's volume and c=
ut off some of the high end frequencies to approximate it when it is hit mo=
re quietly. You can use additive equalization to by boosting resonance or t=
ightening the "Q" of a sound, =C2=A0but this doesn't sound re=
alistic, unfortunately.






3) Multi-samples and Crossfading are frequently used to try and approximate=
 what a drummer doesfor more realism:



Go listen to a Max Roach hi hat solo that lasts for 20 minutes. Think about=
 it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0You'd need thousands of individual samples to approxi=
mate all the sounds he gets out of a cymbal.



Allof these intrinsic problems can be dealt with in creative ways but it ta=
kes a lot of knowledge to do so.



So that brings us to algorithmic drum programs of which there are several o=
n the market.



Honestly, =C2=A0I think they create really cool sounding percussion/drumtra=
cks but they never sound

like a real drum drummingto me. =C2=A0 If you like how they sound, however,=
 and I know a lot of people who use

these programs in their solo work, then they are valid.



I also know musicians who use drum recordings from sample libraries and the=
n edit them very carefully.

One guy I know, Si Moorehead, makes metal tracks that you could NEVER tell =
were put together only with samples. He's a genius!




 
Switch off the board, and keep =
the 1 and 9 keys pressed while switching it on again.
Keep the 2 swit=
ches pressed until the display turns black. After releasing the 2 switches,=

a countdown from 9 to 0 starts. After that, the board is ready to us=
e.
 
On 02/09/13, Sergio Girardi<simpli=
flying@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hello!
=

I am programming the FCB1010 with UnO Chip to control the Octatrack.I have a MidiPal from Mutable Instruments with which I can see that each s=
witch sends other midi info (which I ignore what) other than the note on co=
mmand (which is the only one which I am aware to have activated).
The Un=
o Manual and the original one have some lacks in some steps of the setup bu=
t I have tried many things and I still have for example a strange problem w=
ith Switch 7, it send a command which soloes the active track of the Octatr=
ack, even if it is programmed just to send a command to stop the sequencer.=
 No way.
Tips?
I tried to understand how to reset the pedal but I cou=
ld not find a way.

Thanks!


From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sat Feb  9 17:33:07 2013
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From: Mark Hamburg 
Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs/Human perception
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 09:24:54 -0800
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On Feb 9, 2013, at 12:52 AM, andy butler  wrote:

> ..but we know for certain that 128 increments is inadequate a lot
> of the time.

It could be that the problem has to do with how the 128 increments are distr=
ibuted. If they are linear but human hearing is logarithmic, a lot of the in=
crements will be in the wrong places.

Mark

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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 09:35:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Mungenast 
Reply-To: Tim Mungenast 
Subject: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
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Great and useful info, and for most of these you took the words right out o=
f my mouth (lol). The only addendum I can think of is rubber objects, which=
 make some odd sounds when used as a bow. A kalimba held against a resonant=
 guitar may sound good, especially with the guitar's gain jacked up, but I =
have not yet tried this and have no idea if the reality will live up to the=
 hope.=0A=0A=0A=A0=0ATim Mungenast=0AEditor/Writer/Proofreader: www.linkedi=
n.com/in/timmungenast=0AGuitarist/Composer/Vocalist: www.reverbnation.com/t=
immungenast=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -----=0AFrom: Rick Walker =0ATo: LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting) =0ACc: =0ASent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:14 AM=0ASubject: PRE=
PARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)=0A=0ATony's post=
 about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar Preparation got me inspired.=0A=0AI =
have experimented with a lot of different ways to "prepare" instruments for=
 unconventional=0Aperformance.=0A=0AI thought it would be cool to assemble =
all the different creative ways everyone on this list has=0Afigured out how=
 to 'prepare' an instrument.=0A=0A=0AMy own tiny arsenal for guitar and oth=
er string 'preparation':=0A=0A=0A1)=A0 large and tiny alligagor clips=A0  (=
the size has a huge impact on the resultant timbre so try lots of different=
 sizes)=0A2) Magnets-=A0  from very tiny (Bucky Balls) to very large ones (=
these are very hip, especially when attached to alligator clips)=0A3)=A0 Ma=
rtini skewers=A0 (I particularly love a set of blue plastic Tiki ones that =
I found because they have=0A=A0 =A0  incredible bounce characteristic (not =
unlike hammer dulcimer mallets) and you can turn them over=0A=A0 =A0  and u=
se them as tiny plastic 'slides'=A0 to change the pitch of the instrument=
=0A4)=A0 Suzuki 1/16 sized bows..................amazing and only=A0 $25 US=
D for a wonderful approach to any string instrument=0A5)=A0 E-bows and, bet=
ter yet,=A0 multiple E-bows..............make any multiple string instrumen=
t with metal strings a fantastic drone instrument=0A6)=A0 Metallic Chinese =
'health' balls (the ones that have little chimes inside of them)...........=
..try rolling these guys down any string instrument=0A=A0 =A0 =A0  for rand=
om pitch shifting experiments=0A7)=A0  Brushes of all kinds:=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =
 a)=A0 vegetable brushes=A0 (they come in varying 'stiffnesses' so their te=
xture is different=0A=A0 =A0 =A0  b)=A0 metallic (careful, these eat up str=
ings on good instruments)=A0 I love the kinds used , specifically, for flea=
 eradication on pets=0A=A0 =A0 =A0  c)=A0 the ones that come off of tempora=
ry hair dye products (specifically on 'Dye Hard' products or Hot Topic 'Tem=
porary Dye' products=0A=A0 =A0 =A0  d) any drum stick or mallet you can thi=
nk of (I particularly love velcro-ing different kinds of bells and rattle s=
ounds to strikers like this)=0A8)=A0  Slides of any kind=A0 (glass, metal, =
ceramic, bottle caps, backs of finger nails,=A0 any damn thing)=0A9)=A0 =A0=
  Vibrators=A0 (again, anything--- back massagers, dildos, clitoral vibrato=
rs,=A0 anything that vibrates a string potentially)=0A10)=A0  Drills (again=
, anything that attaches to a drill that can cause rapid re-playing of the =
string---Eddie Van Halen, notroriously used=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 guitar pi=
cks inbedded into a drill bit that allowed for hyper, faster than human,=A0=
 picking techniques.=0A11)=A0  Okay, there are more but I"m running out of =
steam...=0A12)=A0  What the f*ck else?=0A=0ARick Walker

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        Kevin Cheli-Colando 
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On 2/8/13 3:15 PM, Steven Clements wrote:
> 1,000 increments is too large of an estimate given the dynamic range 
> of human hearing and the JND of the human auditory system.
I heard this in a speech one time and didn't source it, so it could be 
inaccurate.
I cantell you that 127 increments of volume is to gross compared to my 
hearing at least, however.

/R.

--------------010703080307060708030505
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On 2/8/13 3:15 PM, Steven Clements
      wrote:

    

    
1,000 increments is too large of an estimate given the
      dynamic range of human hearing and the JND of the human auditory
      system.

    I heard this in a speech one time and didn't source
      it, so it could be inaccurate.

      I can tell you that 127 increments
          of volume is to gross compared to my hearing
            at least, however.

              

              /R.

            
  


--------------010703080307060708030505--

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Subject: Re: scoring and notation software
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 10:56:36 -0800
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On Feb 8, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Per Boysen wrote:

>  I'm not aware of
> anything that can "render a score" because a score always needs smart
> (human) decisions on how to make it optimally readable for the
> musicians



I guess I am imagining something like a score visualizer that would be  
something like Sibelius combined with an Autodesk design program.
Let the software "guess" at the score and then use templates to map  
the notation to non-traditional configurations like those found in the  
book Notations by John Cage.
The interesting thing would be to see how adding increments of  
complexity would affect the "guessing" and the graphic rendering.

I do have Logic and Ableton 9 lined up so you've pointed in a  
direction to experiment with.

thanks

BobC



http://rpcollier.bandcamp.com/album/iterations


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On Feb 8, 2013, =
at 4:42 PM, Per Boysen wrote:

 I'm not aware =
of
anything that can "render a score" because a score always needs =
smart
(human) decisions on how to make it optimally readable for =
the
musicians



I guess I am imagining something like a score visualizer that =
would be something like Sibelius combined with an Autodesk design =
program.
Let the software "guess" at the score and then use =
templates to map the notation to non-traditional configurations like =
those found in the book Notations by John Cage.
The =
interesting thing would be to see how adding increments of complexity =
would affect the "guessing" and the graphic =
rendering.

I do have Logic and Ableton 9 lined =
up so you've pointed in a direction to experiment =
with.

thanks

BobC
<=
div>



=

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	<4828FFBD-8DA8-41F8-9E7E-3B082FACE9C7@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 20:04:43 +0100
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Subject: Re: scoring and notation software
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On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 7:56 PM, RP Collier  wrote:
> I do have Logic and Ableton 9


When I saw your post I checked Ableton's web site but Ableton 9 is
still not yet released, so I guess you mean Live 8? I was talking
about coming features of Live 9.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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On Feb 9, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Per Boysen wrote:

>  but Ableton 9 is
> still not yet released, so I guess you mean Live 8?

I have it lined up as a free upgrade when it comes out.
So I meant that I have it virtually.
:-)

I think it is scheduled for next month?




BobC

http://rpcollier.bandcamp.com/album/iterations


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On Feb 9, 2013, =
at 11:04 AM, Per Boysen wrote:

 but Ableton 9 is
still =
not yet released, so I guess you mean Live =
8?

I have it lined up as a free =
upgrade when it comes out.
So I meant that I have it =
virtually.
:-)

I think it is =
scheduled for next =
month?




BobC


=

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 <51169AC6.4090607@cruzio.com>
From: Steven Clements 
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 19:21:53 -0700
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs
To: Rick Walker 
Cc: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com, 
	Kevin Cheli-Colando 
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--f46d04428f1812bf8f04d5557734
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If we can hear from 0dB to max 137 depending on the source here... I'm
being liberal.
With a jnd - just noticeable difference being liberal again at .5dB, and
more likely closer to 3dB

You're still significantly less then 1,000 increments, especially in the
usable intensity range that is perceptible during running music

But I'm not here looking for a argument :)  I'm just and doc of
audiology.... and thought you stumbled on some new research I'd love to
read.

all the best
Steve


On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Rick Walker  wrote:

>  On 2/8/13 3:15 PM, Steven Clements wrote:
>
> 1,000 increments is too large of an estimate given the dynamic range of
> human hearing and the JND of the human auditory system.
>
> I heard this in a speech one time and didn't source it, so it could be
> inaccurate.
> I can tell you that 127 increments of volume is to gross compared to my
> hearing at least, however.
>
> /R.
>

--f46d04428f1812bf8f04d5557734
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If we can hear from 0dB to max 137 depending on the source here... I'm =
being liberal.
With a jnd - just noticeable difference being liberal aga=
in at .5dB, and more likely closer to 3dB

You're still significa=
ntly less then 1,000 increments, especially in the usable intensity range t=
hat is perceptible during running music




But I'm not here looking for a argument :)=C2=A0 I'm just and d=
oc of audiology.... and thought you stumbled on some new research I'd l=
ove to read.

all the best
Steve





On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com&g=
t; wrote:




 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    
On 2/8/13 3:15 PM, Steven Clements
      wrote:

    

    
1,000 increments is too large of an estimate =
given the
      dynamic range of human hearing and the JND of the human auditory
      system.

    
I heard this in a speech one time and didn'=
t source
      it, so it could be inaccurate.

      I can tell you that 127 increment=
s
          of volume is to gross compared to my hearing
            at least, however.

              

              /R.

            
  






--f46d04428f1812bf8f04d5557734--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 10 10:39:14 2013
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From: "Emmanuel Reveneau" 
To: 
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In-Reply-To: <6080406B-6B0C-4828-8DEA-70B823573BC9@gmail.com>
Subject: NOUNDO/GLOBAL LIVE LOOPING SOLUTION WITH USINE
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:31:43 +0100
Message-ID: <002401ce0779$d2359fd0$76a0df70$@reveneau@free.fr>
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Hello,

please check this video introducing NOUNDO,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D37qr0x91xD4, a live looping software =
we've
built with Jean-Fran=E7ois Domingues in Usine. Basically, NOUNDO is a
multi-input software organized around a rounting matrix which allows
circular paths between inputs (4), loopers (4+1 drop looper) and effects =
(2
tracks with 4 FX/vst in each). You can loop, apply some FX or =
texturizing on
the loop, and reloop the loop, and so on, in any direction.
I use here an edirol piano, a B4 and an old PSS50 Yamaha for some =
"analogic"
sounds.
Midi controllers : BCR 2000, FCB 1010, Novation launchpad.
Features of the loopers are :
- Rec/direct overdub/clear/stop/pause/mute/restart
- volume
- sync/unsync. Loopers are always synchronized unless you unsync and =
then
give a new tempo to the next loopers (with possible back to previous =
tempo,
or unsync again, etc.).
- multiply=20
- random pan
- reverse/go and back
- pitch/speed transposing (linear mode or scale mode)
- Slice (linear mode or scale mode)
- slicer mode/rythmic texturizer module with programmation and presets.
But of course, there is no undo :)
The "drop looper" loops automatically the selected loopers and empty =
them.
Four Vsti are available in the matrix.
Multitracks recording.
And very useful for composers and one man bands, a "band mode" allows to
program step by step all the actions of the loopers, matrix config and
slicers presets : you just need to "rec" at each step of the compo, =
whatever
complex they are.
Well, we are still in beta test for the last version and hope to release =
it
soon as a standalone. Usine users can already test (and improve) the =
patch
on demand.

Loopily yours,

Emmanuel

=20

=20

=20

=20


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Hello,



please check
this video introducing
NOUNDO, https://www.youtub=
e.com/watch?v=3D37qr0x91xD4,
a live looping software we've built with Jean-Fran=E7ois Domingues in =
Usine.
Basically, NOUNDO is a multi-input software organized around a rounting =
matrix
which allows circular paths between inputs (4), loopers (4+1 drop =
looper) and
effects (2 tracks with 4 FX/vst in each). You can loop, apply some FX or
texturizing on the loop, and reloop the loop, and so on, in any =
direction.

I use here an edirol piano, a B4 and an old PSS50 Yamaha for some
"analogic" sounds.

Midi controllers : BCR 2000, FCB 1010, Novation launchpad.

Features of the loopers are :

- Rec/direct overdub/clear/stop/pause/mute/restart

- volume

- sync/unsync. Loopers are always synchronized unless you unsync and =
then give
a new tempo to the next loopers (with possible back to previous tempo, =
or
unsync again, etc.).

- multiply 

- random pan

- reverse/go and back

- pitch/speed transposing (linear mode or scale mode)

- Slice (linear mode or scale mode)

- slicer mode/rythmic texturizer module with programmation and =
presets.

But of course, there is no undo :)

The "drop looper" loops automatically the selected loopers and =
empty
them.

Four Vsti are available in the matrix.

Multitracks recording.

And very useful for composers and one man bands, a "band mode" =
allows
to program step by step all the actions of the loopers, matrix config =
and
slicers presets : you just need to "rec" at each step of the =
compo,
whatever complex they are.

Well, we are still in beta test for the last version and hope to release =
it soon
as a standalone. Usine users can already test (and improve) the patch on
demand.



Loopily =
yours,



Emmanuel


















 









 






 






 












------=_NextPart_000_0025_01CE0782.33FA07D0--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 10 12:17:01 2013
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On 2/9/2013 9:24 AM, Mark Hamburg wrote:
> It could be that the problem has to do with how the 128 increments are distributed. If they are linear but human hearing is logarithmic, a lot of the increments will be in the wrong places.
>
> Mark
Excellent point, Mark,  I hadn't postulated it like that but it makes 
perfect sense.
I know my car stereo clicks between two volumes at a point in it's 
volume curve where the former
is too quite for certain engine noises but the next increment is too 
loud.    It drives me nuts.

/R.

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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:15:10 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs/Human perception
From: Per Boysen 
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> On 2/9/2013 9:24 AM, Mark Hamburg wrote:
>>
>> It could be that the problem has to do with how the 128 increments are
>> distributed. If they are linear but human hearing is logarithmic, a lot of
>> the increments will be in the wrong places.
>>
>> Mark
>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Rick Walker  wrote:
> Excellent point, Mark,  I hadn't postulated it like that but it makes
> perfect sense.
> I know my car stereo clicks between two volumes at a point in it's volume
> curve where the former
> is too quite for certain engine noises but the next increment is too loud.
> It drives me nuts.


Spot on, guys! One may also say that "common good taste in music" for
transitions are logarithmic rather than linear. I never though about
this when playing hands-on as a musician but when I started to produce
recordings I came to spend a lot of time drawing graphic curves to
direct musical transition and I found that a progressive curve sounds
natural. Same phenomenon came up recently when programming volume
pedals for my Gordius Littel Giant; the curve that feels most musical
to play is progressiv while linear totally kills the fun in
performing.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Per Boysen  wrote:

> he curve that feels most musical
> to play is progressiv while linear totally kills the fun in
> performing.
>

When you say progressive, do you mean logarithmic?


-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

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=
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com&g=
t; wrote:



he curve that feels most mu=
sical

to play is progressiv while linear totally kills the fun in

performing.

When you say progressive, do you me=
an=A0logarithmic?


-- 
Mar=
k Francombe


www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com


http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no


twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
<=
/font>



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Any recommendations on a humidifier for a room of guitars?

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Any recommendations on a humidifier for a room of guitars?



--f46d04138ddf48250004d560aa96--

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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 16:52:47 +0100
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Subject: Re: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs/Human perception
From: Per Boysen 
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>
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Per Boysen  wrote:
>>
>> he curve that feels most musical
>> to play is progressiv while linear totally kills the fun in
>> performing.
>
>
> When you say progressive, do you mean logarithmic?


Yes, a curve that changes by a varying percentage.
'
Per

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Pretty much any one will do, I think. Just get one that seems  
appropriate for the size of your room. Be sure to fill it up with  
water regularly. That was the biggest problem I had when I was using  
one. I've really been lax, though. I should take my own advice! lol

Jeff

On Feb 10, 2013, at 9:44 AM, daniel wrote:

> Any recommendations on a humidifier for a room of guitars?
>

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Hi=2C
I have found out the problem!
I had left active the FCB1010 "Tap Tempo" function and so apparently at eac=
h press of a switch it was sending different commands.
Now it works all perfect!
But at least I know that the Octatrack can solo a track via midi command. A=
nd this is strange=2C because with the CC suggested in the OT manual=2C the=
 solo doesn't work...
Bah :)

Ser

Date: Sat=2C 9 Feb 2013 09:31:57 -0600
From: rdwfour@verizon.net
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: FCB1010 with UNO Chip strange behaviour.

Did you run the memory initialization routine? From the UNO manual: Switch =
off the board=2C and keep the 1 and 9 keys pressed while switching it on ag=
ain.Keep the 2 switches pressed until the display turns black. After releas=
ing the 2 switches=2Ca countdown from 9 to 0 starts. After that=2C the boar=
d is ready to use. On 02/09/13=2C Sergio Girardi wr=
ote: Hello!

I am programming the FCB1010 with UnO Chip to control the Octatrack.
I have a MidiPal from Mutable Instruments with which I can see that each sw=
itch sends other midi info (which I ignore what) other than the note on com=
mand (which is the only one which I am aware to have activated).
The Uno Manual and the original one have some lacks in some steps of the se=
tup but I have tried many things and I still have for example a strange pro=
blem with Switch 7=2C it send a command which soloes the active track of th=
e Octatrack=2C even if it is programmed just to send a command to stop the =
sequencer. No way.
Tips?
I tried to understand how to reset the pedal but I could not find a way.

Thanks!
 		 	   		  =

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Hi=2C
I have found out the problem!
I had left active the FCB1010 "Ta=
p Tempo" function and so apparently at each press of a switch it was sendin=
g different commands.
Now it works all perfect!
But at least I know t=
hat the Octatrack can solo a track via midi command. And this is strange=2C=
 because with the CC suggested in the OT manual=2C the solo doesn't work...=

Bah :)

Ser

Date: Sat=2C 9 Feb 2013 09:31:57 -0600
From: rdwfou=
r@verizon.net
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: FC=
B1010 with UNO Chip strange behaviour.

Did you run the memory i=
nitialization routine?
 =3B
From the UNO manual:
 =3B
Switch off the board=2C and keep the 1 and 9 keys =
pressed while switching it on again.
Keep the 2 switches pressed until t=
he display turns black. After releasing the 2 switches=2C
a countdown fr=
om 9 to 0 starts. After that=2C the board is ready to use.
 =3B
On 02/09/1=
3=2C Sergio Girardi<=3Bsimpliflying@gmail.com>=3B wrote:
 =3B
Hello!

I am programming the FCB1010 =
with UnO Chip to control the Octatrack.
I have a MidiPal from Mutable In=
struments with which I can see that each switch sends other midi info (whic=
h I ignore what) other than the note on command (which is the only one whic=
h I am aware to have activated).
The Uno Manual and the original one hav=
e some lacks in some steps of the setup but I have tried many things and I =
still have for example a strange problem with Switch 7=2C it send a command=
 which soloes the active track of the Octatrack=2C even if it is programmed=
 just to send a command to stop the sequencer. No way.
Tips?
I tried =
to understand how to reset the pedal but I could not find a way.

Tha=
nks!
 		 	   		  

=

--_f584b84a-58f1-44cb-885a-1b955e3b30d1_--

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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 09:23:42 -0800
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Subject: Re: NOUNDO/GLOBAL LIVE LOOPING SOLUTION WITH USINE
From: Art Simon 
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Thanks Emmanuel!

Love the video. Noundo looks very cool and I love the name. Usine was
my favorite modular music software until I got lazy and decided to
just stick with Ableton Live. Very impressive.

On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 2:31 AM, Emmanuel Reveneau
 wrote:
> Hello,
>
> please check this video introducing NOUNDO,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D37qr0x91xD4, a live looping software we=
've
> built with Jean-Fran=E7ois Domingues in Usine. Basically, NOUNDO is a
> multi-input software organized around a rounting matrix which allows
> circular paths between inputs (4), loopers (4+1 drop looper) and effects =
(2
> tracks with 4 FX/vst in each). You can loop, apply some FX or texturizing=
 on
> the loop, and reloop the loop, and so on, in any direction.
> I use here an edirol piano, a B4 and an old PSS50 Yamaha for some "analog=
ic"
> sounds.
> Midi controllers : BCR 2000, FCB 1010, Novation launchpad.
> Features of the loopers are :
> - Rec/direct overdub/clear/stop/pause/mute/restart
> - volume
> - sync/unsync. Loopers are always synchronized unless you unsync and then
> give a new tempo to the next loopers (with possible back to previous temp=
o,
> or unsync again, etc.).
> - multiply
> - random pan
> - reverse/go and back
> - pitch/speed transposing (linear mode or scale mode)
> - Slice (linear mode or scale mode)
> - slicer mode/rythmic texturizer module with programmation and presets.
> But of course, there is no undo :)
> The "drop looper" loops automatically the selected loopers and empty them=
.
> Four Vsti are available in the matrix.
> Multitracks recording.
> And very useful for composers and one man bands, a "band mode" allows to
> program step by step all the actions of the loopers, matrix config and
> slicers presets : you just need to "rec" at each step of the compo, whate=
ver
> complex they are.
> Well, we are still in beta test for the last version and hope to release =
it
> soon as a standalone. Usine users can already test (and improve) the patc=
h
> on demand.
>
> Loopily yours,
>
> Emmanuel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



--=20
Art Simon
simart@gmail.com

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Subject: Re: Realistic drum programming/recording for songs/Human perception
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There's a tricky balance on response curves and where to put precision.

Using an imaging example (because I happen to know more about that):

If one does computations with images, those computations often (though =
not always) work better when using a linear measure of photon energy =97 =
i.e., twice as much photon energy is represented by twice as big a =
number. Exposure adjustments are a prime example of where this is the =
case.

On the other hand, people's perception of light is decidedly non-linear. =
Twice as much photon energy does not necessarily look twice as bright. =
This makes linear encodings perceptually inefficient because for a =
steady linear progression there will be a lot less information in the =
shadows than people perceive and conversely there will be a lot more =
precision in the highlights.

I may muff the exact numbers here, but what people perceive as middle =
gray is something like 18% gray on a linear scale with black at 0% and =
white at 100%. So, if we just stored values ranged 0-100, half of the =
range would only get 18 values while the other half would get 82.

Imaging professionals bash on JPEG for being an 8-bit format =97 only =
256 distinct levels =97 but those 256 levels are distributed in a way =
that is more perceptually uniform so often it is more than enough. =
(Where it does get challenged is when editing. Almost every image =
correction tends to lose levels of data when things get remapped =97 =
open up the shadows and you lose levels in the highlights. So, 256 well =
distributed levels is good representationally but a bit challenged when =
it comes to large tonal moves.)

Turning back to audio. If MIDI velocities are encoded on a linear scale =
that may make sense in some ways, but since we perceive loudness on a =
logarithmic scale, it probably puts the precision in the wrong places. =
Or considering the middle gray case, does a velocity value of 64 sound =
half as loud as 127? Does it do so in an interesting way? Is the =
precision where you want it when programming a drum loop?

Mark

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http://www.prinzicase.com/qnyigp.php?s=ot

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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:09:44 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Atmospheric post rock track
From: Per Boysen 
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(posted this clip on Dennis Facebook group too, so if you listened
there you might not bother clicking the link below)

Today's recording of an atmospheric post rock guitar track:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4963264/Horizon.mp3

Circumstances had me returning to guitar based somewhat "traditional"
music for a day - and it has been great fun! I was thinking about the
"realistic drum programming" thread when creating this music, but
truth is that drums are not made to sound realistic here. I just did
what fitted the music sound-wise and emotionally, so there's a fair
chance drummers might turn green-face and run off...

I'm very happy with the sound the AxeFx gave this particular guitar
starting around 2:40 into this track; a sheen that isn't to be found
in the previously recorded guitars of the track (RME line-in). This
guitar is very special to me as well, I bought one of the massively
under-priced now discontinued Epiphone Les Paul Ultra II with the idea
to turn it into sounding like a Gretsch "hollow body Les Paul".
Therefore I replaced the dull Epiphone humbuckers with Lace
Alumitones. This Epiphone also has a Shadow Nanomag active PU in the
neck to give a semi acoustic sound, but I found that together with the
two Alumitones the Nanomag's tone knob works as a
morphing-pickups-out-of-phase control (it actually affects the
Alumitones, so there must be some erroneous wiring inside, but I love
it that way!). This off-phase type sound goes quite close to a
Telecaster even though the glimmering pickup overtones has bit of Les
Paul flavor and the general light weight of the instrument has an
obvious impact on the sound (lots of air chambers inside the body).

The melody guitar was played with an optional expression pedal to
swell vs freeze two delays set to different loop length, hence the
sort of pedal steel/synth pad vibe here and there. And I'm happy with
the bass as well; recorded it with a cello on the lowest string. Gave
a bit of the Paul McCartney Hoefner sound (when restraining from doing
any fretless vibrato). Quite far from the bass sound you get with a
Chapman Stick ;-)

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:02:03 +0000
From: Philip Conway 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: Atmospheric post rock track
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Very nice indeed.  A very full and complex sound without becoming mushy or 
busy.  The AxeFX does sound great.  Did you do much mixing on the track or 
is that pretty much just the output of the AxeFX (plus the drums)?

I'm seriously debating whether or not I can afford or justify owning one - 
I keep waiting for the price to drop on second hand ones but that doesn't 
seem to be happening!  I recently bought a Yamaha THR10C, which sounds 
amazing and is perfect for a nice, simple practice amp but it's pretty 
rudimentary tweaking-wise (and I love to tweak).

Anyway, it's good to hear the AxeFX used on such a nice piece of music. 
Most of the demos for it do one of three things: cheesy 
blues/shred/elevator music, chug-a-chug-chug death metal or mushy, 
over-effected ambient sound-gunk!


Philip.

--On 11 February 2013 15:09 +0100 Per Boysen  wrote:

> (posted this clip on Dennis Facebook group too, so if you listened
> there you might not bother clicking the link below)
>
> Today's recording of an atmospheric post rock guitar track:
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4963264/Horizon.mp3
>
> Circumstances had me returning to guitar based somewhat "traditional"
> music for a day - and it has been great fun! I was thinking about the
> "realistic drum programming" thread when creating this music, but
> truth is that drums are not made to sound realistic here. I just did
> what fitted the music sound-wise and emotionally, so there's a fair
> chance drummers might turn green-face and run off...
>
> I'm very happy with the sound the AxeFx gave this particular guitar
> starting around 2:40 into this track; a sheen that isn't to be found
> in the previously recorded guitars of the track (RME line-in). This
> guitar is very special to me as well, I bought one of the massively
> under-priced now discontinued Epiphone Les Paul Ultra II with the idea
> to turn it into sounding like a Gretsch "hollow body Les Paul".
> Therefore I replaced the dull Epiphone humbuckers with Lace
> Alumitones. This Epiphone also has a Shadow Nanomag active PU in the
> neck to give a semi acoustic sound, but I found that together with the
> two Alumitones the Nanomag's tone knob works as a
> morphing-pickups-out-of-phase control (it actually affects the
> Alumitones, so there must be some erroneous wiring inside, but I love
> it that way!). This off-phase type sound goes quite close to a
> Telecaster even though the glimmering pickup overtones has bit of Les
> Paul flavor and the general light weight of the instrument has an
> obvious impact on the sound (lots of air chambers inside the body).
>
> The melody guitar was played with an optional expression pedal to
> swell vs freeze two delays set to different loop length, hence the
> sort of pedal steel/synth pad vibe here and there. And I'm happy with
> the bass as well; recorded it with a cello on the lowest string. Gave
> a bit of the Paul McCartney Hoefner sound (when restraining from doing
> any fretless vibrato). Quite far from the bass sound you get with a
> Chapman Stick ;-)
>
> Greetings from Sweden
>
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>




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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:31:18 +0100
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On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Philip Conway
 wrote:
> Very nice indeed.  A very full and complex sound without becoming mushy or
> busy.  The AxeFX does sound great.  Did you do much mixing on the track or
> is that pretty much just the output of the AxeFX (plus the drums)?

There are two guitars in this piece. Only one was played through the
AxeFx, the second guitar that enters at 2:00 by doubling the first
guitar and then at 2:40 takes off into melody playing. I simply
recorded what came out of the AxeFx with effects "as part of the
instrument" (live played with expression pedal) and nothing were added
in the mix. So the AxeFx really is "everything in the box". A
maximally fast recording tool given you have the required experience
to make the correct decision on what effects to record with. But you
can always "play it safe" by recording both outputs from the AxeFx;
one is with effects and the other is just a clone of the guitar's
pickup output, intended for future re-amping.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Hi Per,

I am a pro solo sin=
ger-songwriter (box,alto sax keys, guitar) now =
;based in Nimes, France and am busy prepa=
ring my rig/musical arrangements for various E=
uropean tours later this year.

Steven Bin=
gham suggested I contact you. I am se=
eking a way to work my rig so I =
;can play the sax over my music in m=
y shows.
Sorry to spring this one on y=
ou but it sounds like you are the re=
al authority on this subject!

Am keen to find a&n=
bsp;way to allow me to  punch in/record a=
 section of the complete live mix, quanti=
sed to midi clock, as I am playing it&nbs=
p;on the keyboards to then punch out of&n=
bsp;recording and then have that recorded loop=
 playback instantaneously so I can let go=
 of the keys
 and play my sax ov=
er what I have just looped, muting the&nb=
sp;original at the same time of course, a=
ll on the fly! I dont want to be&nbs=
p;doing this without the loop punch in/outs
 being quantised to MidiClock so I&nbs=
p;dont have to be precise with the punche=
s all be it punching in/out before the&nb=
sp;place I wish to do so!. Somehow I =
;also need to have the 
main mix&nbs=
p;muted automatically while the loop is playin=
g back and then return when switching the=
 loop off to continue through the rest&nb=
sp;of the song. Bare in mind I maybe =
;
also trigering arpeggiators from external&nb=
sp;synths as well as KARMA from the KRONO=
S and playing back complete drum backing =
tracks from my MacBook in ABLETON
 L=
IVE or Logic Audio. It is also possible&n=
bsp;for the KRONOS to sync to mid clock:&=
nbsp;at the moment I use it as the m=
aster midi clock. There are various ways =
of using the 
KRONOS to trigger loop=
s and drum sequences in sync via struck&n=
bsp;keys and certainly the SoftStep can be&nbs=
p;utilised for this purpose too although it&nb=
sp;is not ideal for keyboard
 players&nbs=
p;as often one needs to "feel" a pedal&nb=
sp;switch "click" rather than having to confir=
m it actually has with the SoftSteps litt=
le lights which when sitting down are oft=
en 
obscured simply by the natural a=
ngle one is sitting at! Ideally the whole=
 looping process could be automated via s=
ome key strikes on a note on/off basis!?.=
..

There are lots of "looping" artists =
out there: I wouldnt describe myself as o=
ne of those! however I simply need someth=
ing that will allow me to loop what =
I am doing
 from the 2 buss mix=
 at any given moment to allow me to&=
nbsp;improvise as long as I wish and then=
 return to that mix in perfect sync. =
;One possible solution could be to have <=
/div>
what I am playing stop on entry =
;of the just recorded loop to then someho=
e re-release the keyboards again for real =
;time playing immediately the loop is stopped.=
 Perhaps there is a note command or =
something in SOOPER LOOPER that I could h=
it
 on one of my keyboards at a=
ny given time (say an assigned note withi=
n a chord) that would cease any Korg =
;KRONOS KARMA/external midiclocked arps etc when&nb=
sp;that 
same key note starts to tri=
gger the loop (after having recorded it o=
f course bars earlier) then another note =
that could be within the first chord of&n=
bsp;the returning live playing 
that also=
 stops the looper playing back!...?

I i=
magine this isnt something that can be di=
scussed adequately via email: as such would&nb=
sp;it be possible we could discuss this o=
ver Skype ?

My rig:

Korg KRONOS 88&nb=
sp;keyboard
2112 MacBook Pro running Ableton Liv=
e/Logic Audio
TC-Helicon VoiceLive2 vocal fx
SoftS=
tep
12 Step

External synths
Alesis Andromeda&nbs=
p;A6 analog keyboard
Oberheim Matrix 1000 analog=
 rack synth x2
Ensoniq ESQ-M x2 analog =
;rack synth
EMU Morpheus
Korg Wavestation SR
Ko=
rg EX-8000 analog rack synth
Waldorf Pulse+ =
;analog rack mono synth
Waldorf  rack
Yamaha&=
nbsp;FS1r
Lexicon MPX1 fx x2
Lexicon PCM80 fx=


Emagic Unitor 8 for MacBook and main&n=
bsp;rig has another Unitor 8 running in p=
atch mode.

You can get hear some of my music here some of which I am w=
orking into my live set.

Thanks for your time

best

Henr=
y Frampton
www.riverson=
icstudios.com

Hi Henry,

Interesting setup you have!

To be perfec=
tly honest this is way beyond my comfort zone in terms of setup: I've never =
tried to sync to midi clock and I certainly don't use multiple keyboards and=
 so on!!

With the loop setup I use (Sooperlooper within Logic 9) it would=
 be easy enough to setup the SoftStep to control record / stop / mute and so=
 on, but I frankly have no idea about the routing you're asking about, and i=
f you're running Ableton Live I haven't been able to get Sooperlooper to run=
 convincingly with it (though Jason has I think).

I'm pretty certain that=
 SL will sync to midi clock if needed, but I've not tried it.

My best sug=
gestion would be to post the details of the setup to the Loopers Delight for=
um, where there are basically several guys who are able to pretty well answe=
r any looping question ever invented (two whom I've worked with - Andy Butle=
r and Per Boysen - are an encyclopedia of looping between them, and seem to =
answer posts within hours!).

give that a go as I'm sure it will turn up t=
he best suggestions=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6

Cheers,
Steve



O=
n 22 Jan 2013, at 10:08, Henry Frampton <henry=
framptonmusic@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Steve,

Henry Frampton here ! finally moved to Nimes!
Jason suggested I contact you about this! Really need to work out my ri=
g so I can play the sax over my music in my shows.

Am busy sorting ou=
t a way to allow me to quantise punch in record a section of the complete li=
ve mix as I am playing it on the keyboards to then punch out of recording an=
d then have that recorded loop playback instantaneously so I can let go of t=
he keys and play my sax over what I have just looped, all on the fly!... als=
o I dont want to be doing this without the loop punch in/outs being quantise=
d to MidiClock so I dont have to be precise with the punches all be it punch=
ing in before the place I wish to!. Somehow I also need to have the main mix=
 muted automatically while the loop is playing back and then return when swi=
tching the loop off to continue through the rest of the song. Bare in mind I=
 maybe also trigering arpeggiators from external synths as well as KARMA fro=
m the KRONOS and playing back complete drum backing tracks from my MacBook i=
n ABLETON LIVE.

Would be best to have a chat with you over skype or I=
 can call you for free on your landline from France.

Sorry to spring =
this one on you but it sounds like you might be just the right man to consul=
t on this issue according to Jason!

My rig:

Korg KRONOS 88 key=
board
2112 MacBook Pro running Ableton Live
TC-Helicon VoiceLive2 voca=
l fx
SoftStep
12 Step

External synths
Alesis Andromed=
a A6 analog keyboard
Oberheim Matrix 1000 analog rack synth x2
Ensoniq=
 ESQ-M x2 analog rack synth
EMU Morpheus
Korg Wavestation SR
Korg E=
X-8000 analog rack synth
Waldorf Pulse+ analog rack mono synth
Waldorf=
  rack
Yamaha FS1r
Lexicon MPX1 fx x2
Lexicon PCM80

Ema=
gic Unitor 8 for MacBook and main rig has another Unitor 8 running in patch =
mode.

Hope to speak soon

thanks!

best

Henry Fram=
pton

>---- =
Original Message ----
>From: Per Boysen <p=
erboysen@gmail.com>
>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>Sent: Sat, Feb 9, 2013, 7:04 PM
>S=
ubject: Re: scoring and notation software
>>On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 7:56 PM,&nbs=
p;RP Collier <skeptikalist@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=
; I do have Logic and Ableton 9
>>
>When I saw your post I checked&n=
bsp;Ableton's web site but Ableton 9 is
>=
;still not yet released, so I guess you&n=
bsp;mean Live 8? I was talking
>about co=
ming features of Live 9.
>
>Greetings f=
rom Sweden
>
>Per Boysen
>www.perboysen.com
&=
gt;http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


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Message-ID: 
Subject: OT: Gig with Damo
To: loopers-delight 
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Hi guys...

Just boasting really, but I had a fab time last Thursday when I was one of
the band to play with Damo Suzuki in Oslo. It went so well, considering
none of us had ever played together, we just kinda gelled! And 1 hour 40
mins (I kid you not) just zipped by!!!

We were slightly bummed cos I got my film dudes to shoot it, but
unfortunately teh desk recording got fucked up, so the audio here id just
from a camera mike, but that too seems to go a bit weird after a bit.
Anyway, its just the first 13 mins, so there may be better later.. gonna
take a while to go thru. This bit is quite retrained, and we got pretty
wild later on.. Twas a big band too, with 2 drummers (including Ted
Parsons, from Prong, Killing Joke, Pil, Swans) and a couple of members of
Radio9, one of the best motorik rock bands from the UK, who moved to Oslo a
few years back.
Enjoy...

http://vimeo.com/59392680

Psst.. no looping in this clip, but sneaked some in later...


-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--f46d042f9732d44d3904d577f9ea
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi guys...

Just boasting really, but I =
had a fab time last Thursday when I was one of the band to play with Damo S=
uzuki in Oslo. It went so well, considering none of us had ever played toge=
ther, we just kinda gelled! And 1 hour 40 mins (I kid you not) just zipped =
by!!!



We were slightly bummed cos I got my film dudes to shoot it, but unfort=
unately teh desk recording got fucked up, so the audio here id just from a =
camera mike, but that too seems to go a bit weird after a bit. Anyway, its =
just the first 13 mins, so there may be better later.. gonna take a while t=
o go thru. This bit is quite retrained, and we got pretty wild later on.. T=
was a big band too, with 2 drummers (including Ted Parsons, from Prong, Kil=
ling Joke, Pil, Swans) and a couple of=A0members=A0of Radio9, one of the be=
st motorik rock bands from the UK, who moved to Oslo a few years back.


Enjoy...=A0


Psst.. no looping in this clip, but sneaked some in later...


--f46d042f9732d44d3904d577f9ea--

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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:28:06 -0800
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Subject: Re: OT: Gig with Damo
From: Kevin Cheli-Colando 
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Hey Mark,

That's awesome you got to play with the legendary Damo!  Can you tell
me (us) more about how he pulls it off?  Does he really just get a
group of people and run a full imrov set with everyone doing their
best to keep together or does he have some kind of guiding strategy
for the thing.

He seems like a really nice guy too.

Kevin

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:32 AM, mark francombe  wrote:
> Hi guys...
>
> Just boasting really, but I had a fab time last Thursday when I was one of
> the band to play with Damo Suzuki in Oslo. It went so well, considering none
> of us had ever played together, we just kinda gelled! And 1 hour 40 mins (I
> kid you not) just zipped by!!!
>
> We were slightly bummed cos I got my film dudes to shoot it, but
> unfortunately teh desk recording got fucked up, so the audio here id just
> from a camera mike, but that too seems to go a bit weird after a bit.
> Anyway, its just the first 13 mins, so there may be better later.. gonna
> take a while to go thru. This bit is quite retrained, and we got pretty wild
> later on.. Twas a big band too, with 2 drummers (including Ted Parsons, from
> Prong, Killing Joke, Pil, Swans) and a couple of members of Radio9, one of
> the best motorik rock bands from the UK, who moved to Oslo a few years back.
> Enjoy...
>
> http://vimeo.com/59392680
>
> Psst.. no looping in this clip, but sneaked some in later...
>
>
> --
> Mark Francombe
> www.markfrancombe.com
> www.ordoabkhao.com
> http://vimeo.com/user825094
> http://www.looop.no
> twitter @markfrancombe
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/



-- 
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

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On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:32 PM, mark francombe  wrote:
>

Cam sound was ok. Great to see this!

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Subject: Re: Live looping to Midi Clock solution sought!
From: Per Boysen 
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Hi Henry,

That's a lot of gadget you have going. I read it carefully but never
understood what you you are going to use as the source for the MIDI
clock that you want everything to follow? What you want to do is
possible and rather simple to set up. Are you familiar with the gear
and software? In case not, read up! There are two important aspects:
First you need to decide on the tempo master (where the MIDI Clock
sync signal is generated and distributed to all the slaves). The
looping you are describing is the very simplest form of quantized
looping. "Quantize" in live looping does not mean that the audio is
quantized - like in a sequencer - but rather that the command you give
is to be executed at a certain time cue, for example "at the next bar
downbeat". If you decide to use the Looper plugin of Ableton live you
just chose "bar" as quantize value. If you decide to use Mobius you
make a similar choice in the plugin's preferences. But most loopers
doesn't think in terms like "bars" but rather in terms like "loop",
"cycle" and "sub cycle".

For example if you are running Mobius as a plugin of Live you set Live
to follow the external MIDI clock signal (wherever that comes from)
and then you set the Mobius plugin to follow "host sync" and finally
you set quantize for the Mobius plugin to "cycle". "Cycle" is the name
for the very first loop you create and if the first loop you catch is
one bar long (from Live's perspective of liner time) the actual
commands quantizing in Mobius will work on a one bar grid.

The other stuff you are mentioning is simply a question about signal
routing and nothing I can help you with. Whatever signal you rout into
the looper will be looped if you put the looper into Overdub Mode (or
similar). For the Mobius looper there is a Global Mute command and by
its preferences you may decide how the un-mute will be handled; by
following the linear time (MIDI Clock/Host sync), by restarting from
loop its beginning or by continuing from exactly where you muted (like
"paus" on a tape machine).

Now decide on what to use and set up the signal routing! Oh, one more
thing: if you plan on using both Logic and Live at the same time I
would not recommend that. The reason is that Logic can't follow MIDI
Clock (Apple took it out because it is such a bad sync protocol)
unless you have an old copy of Logic, 7.xx version. You can generate
audio files in Logic that you run in Live. If you have to use software
instruments in Logic it might be a more stable solution to run them by
Mainstage instead. You may still run loopers and back track audio
files in Mainstage but with a better visual display and more stable.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:22 PM,   wrote:
> Hi Per,
>
> I am a pro solo singer-songwriter (box,alto sax keys, guitar) now based i=
n
> Nimes, France and am busy preparing my rig/musical arrangements for vario=
us
> European tours later this year.
>
> Steven Bingham suggested I contact you. I am seeking a way to work my rig=
 so
> I can play the sax over my music in my shows.
> Sorry to spring this one on you but it sounds like you are the real
> authority on this subject!
>
> Am keen to find a way to allow me to  punch in/record a section of the
> complete live mix, quantised to midi clock, as I am playing it on the
> keyboards to then punch out of recording and then have that recorded loop
> playback instantaneously so I can let go of the keys
>  and play my sax over what I have just looped, muting the original at the
> same time of course, all on the fly! I dont want to be doing this without
> the loop punch in/outs
>  being quantised to MidiClock so I dont have to be precise with the punch=
es
> all be it punching in/out before the place I wish to do so!. Somehow I al=
so
> need to have the
> main mix muted automatically while the loop is playing back and then retu=
rn
> when switching the loop off to continue through the rest of the song. Bar=
e
> in mind I maybe
> also trigering arpeggiators from external synths as well as KARMA from th=
e
> KRONOS and playing back complete drum backing tracks from my MacBook in
> ABLETON
>  LIVE or Logic Audio. It is also possible for the KRONOS to sync to mid
> clock: at the moment I use it as the master midi clock. There are various
> ways of using the
> KRONOS to trigger loops and drum sequences in sync via struck keys and
> certainly the SoftStep can be utilised for this purpose too although it i=
s
> not ideal for keyboard
>  players as often one needs to "feel" a pedal switch "click" rather than
> having to confirm it actually has with the SoftSteps little lights which
> when sitting down are often
> obscured simply by the natural angle one is sitting at! Ideally the whole
> looping process could be automated via some key strikes on a note on/off
> basis!?...
>
> There are lots of "looping" artists out there: I wouldnt describe myself =
as
> one of those! however I simply need something that will allow me to loop
> what I am doing
>  from the 2 buss mix at any given moment to allow me to improvise as long=
 as
> I wish and then return to that mix in perfect sync. One possible solution
> could be to have
> what I am playing stop on entry of the just recorded loop to then somehoe
> re-release the keyboards again for real time playing immediately the loop=
 is
> stopped. Perhaps there is a note command or something in SOOPER LOOPER th=
at
> I could hit
>  on one of my keyboards at any given time (say an assigned note within a
> chord) that would cease any Korg KRONOS KARMA/external midiclocked arps e=
tc
> when that
> same key note starts to trigger the loop (after having recorded it of cou=
rse
> bars earlier) then another note that could be within the first chord of t=
he
> returning live playing
> that also stops the looper playing back!...?
>
> I imagine this isnt something that can be discussed adequately via email:=
 as
> such would it be possible we could discuss this over Skype ?
>
> My rig:
>
> Korg KRONOS 88 keyboard
> 2112 MacBook Pro running Ableton Live/Logic Audio
> TC-Helicon VoiceLive2 vocal fx
> SoftStep
> 12 Step
>
> External synths
> Alesis Andromeda A6 analog keyboard
> Oberheim Matrix 1000 analog rack synth x2
> Ensoniq ESQ-M x2 analog rack synth
> EMU Morpheus
> Korg Wavestation SR
> Korg EX-8000 analog rack synth
> Waldorf Pulse+ analog rack mono synth
> Waldorf  rack
> Yamaha FS1r
> Lexicon MPX1 fx x2
> Lexicon PCM80 fx
>
> Emagic Unitor 8 for MacBook and main rig has another Unitor 8 running in
> patch mode.
>
> You can get hear some of my music here some of which I am working into my
> live set.
>
> Thanks for your time
>
> best
>
> Henry Frampton
> www.riversonicstudios.com
>
> Hi Henry,
>
> Interesting setup you have!
>
> To be perfectly honest this is way beyond my comfort zone in terms of set=
up:
> I've never tried to sync to midi clock and I certainly don't use multiple
> keyboards and so on!!
>
> With the loop setup I use (Sooperlooper within Logic 9) it would be easy
> enough to setup the SoftStep to control record / stop / mute and so on, b=
ut
> I frankly have no idea about the routing you're asking about, and if you'=
re
> running Ableton Live I haven't been able to get Sooperlooper to run
> convincingly with it (though Jason has I think).
>
> I'm pretty certain that SL will sync to midi clock if needed, but I've no=
t
> tried it.
>
> My best suggestion would be to post the details of the setup to the Loope=
rs
> Delight forum, where there are basically several guys who are able to pre=
tty
> well answer any looping question ever invented (two whom I've worked with=
 -
> Andy Butler and Per Boysen - are an encyclopedia of looping between them,
> and seem to answer posts within hours!).
>
> give that a go as I'm sure it will turn up the best suggestions=E2=80=A6=
=E2=80=A6
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
>
>
>
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 10:08, Henry Frampton 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Henry Frampton here ! finally moved to Nimes!
>
> Jason suggested I contact you about this! Really need to work out my rig =
so
> I can play the sax over my music in my shows.
>
> Am busy sorting out a way to allow me to quantise punch in record a secti=
on
> of the complete live mix as I am playing it on the keyboards to then punc=
h
> out of recording and then have that recorded loop playback instantaneousl=
y
> so I can let go of the keys and play my sax over what I have just looped,
> all on the fly!... also I dont want to be doing this without the loop pun=
ch
> in/outs being quantised to MidiClock so I dont have to be precise with th=
e
> punches all be it punching in before the place I wish to!. Somehow I also
> need to have the main mix muted automatically while the loop is playing b=
ack
> and then return when switching the loop off to continue through the rest =
of
> the song. Bare in mind I maybe also trigering arpeggiators from external
> synths as well as KARMA from the KRONOS and playing back complete drum
> backing tracks from my MacBook in ABLETON LIVE.
>
> Would be best to have a chat with you over skype or I can call you for fr=
ee
> on your landline from France.
>
> Sorry to spring this one on you but it sounds like you might be just the
> right man to consult on this issue according to Jason!
>
> My rig:
>
> Korg KRONOS 88 keyboard
> 2112 MacBook Pro running Ableton Live
> TC-Helicon VoiceLive2 vocal fx
> SoftStep
> 12 Step
>
> External synths
> Alesis Andromeda A6 analog keyboard
> Oberheim Matrix 1000 analog rack synth x2
> Ensoniq ESQ-M x2 analog rack synth
> EMU Morpheus
> Korg Wavestation SR
> Korg EX-8000 analog rack synth
> Waldorf Pulse+ analog rack mono synth
> Waldorf  rack
> Yamaha FS1r
> Lexicon MPX1 fx x2
> Lexicon PCM80
>
> Emagic Unitor 8 for MacBook and main rig has another Unitor 8 running in
> patch mode.
>
> Hope to speak soon
>
> thanks!
>
> best
>
> Henry Frampton
>
>
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: Per Boysen 
>>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>Sent: Sat, Feb 9, 2013, 7:04 PM
>>Subject: Re: scoring and notation software
>>
>>On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 7:56 PM, RP Collier  wrote=
:
>>> I do have Logic and Ableton 9
>>
>>
>>When I saw your post I checked Ableton's web site but Ableton 9 is
>>still not yet released, so I guess you mean Live 8? I was talking
>>about coming features of Live 9.
>>
>>Greetings from Sweden
>>
>>Per Boysen
>>www.perboysen.com
>>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb 11 21:33:11 2013
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great post Rick,  I have these tiny magnets that when you attach to  
the strings create a lovely  slightly rattly false fret with some  
great over tones that sound almost ring modulated. Put more than one  
on a string , placed at  strong harmonic nodes and you have some  cool  
variations, caution, striking the string to hard may launch the magnets.
  I'll add:
1. aluminum foil,  cut and fold small squares of this and create  
little rings that you attach to the strings to create a great rattly  
buzz sound while still letting the fundamental notes come through,  
think of a kalimba with those little buzzers on it.
2. thin sheet aluminum cut in long thin strips woven between the  
strings at the bridge gives a nice faux steel drum effect, ditto with  
old credit cards cut the same way
3. hand held battery operated rubber bladed fan, Like the one I  
borrowed from you rick, sure if you hold the fans blades to the  
strings long enough you will smell burning rubber, but what a cool  
sound with the added advantage of motor noise that isn't so  
overpowering it will degauss your pickups like a drill can do.
4. Any little hand held toy with a speaker and dialogue, I prefer the  
MR T in your pocket, but the remote control from the Beavis and  
Butthead big book of inactivity is also excellent. Talking dolls or  
little toy samplers. hey there's an idea,  a talking doll,  with a  
built in sampler, imagine creating your own...er dialogue for a doll  
like that? ok perhaps you better not
  Bill
  

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb 11 22:10:41 2013
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A long Improvisation to start my set, kind of my warm up and sound  
check rolled in to one, this is the same thing i just posted on  
Facebook. i had been thinking about the performance at Y2K7 with Henry  
Kaiser Arild Anderson and Rick Walker and the extraordinary video  
footage taken under the ice cap in Antarctica by Werner Herzog that  
accompanied their performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlBiPGLdXM0

Bill
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A long Improvisation to start my set, kind of my warm up and sound check rolled in to one, this is the same thing i just posted on Facebook. i had been thinking about the performance at Y2K7 with Henry Kaiser Arild Anderson and Rick Walker and the extraordinary video footage taken under the ice cap in Antarctica by Werner Herzog that accompanied their performance. 

Bill

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	<96A841DDAE284E3F904A54B4C4C31C3B@Bedroom>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 07:06:24 +0800
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Guitar looping on YouTube
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my new favorite!

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:08 AM, Douglas Baldwin wrote:

> **
> The reason why the room is so orderly is... it's not my room!
>
> The performance was taped at a local cable TV studio, part of a series
> called "Wes Houston Presents..." Lotsa good local original music in every
> possible genre. Even looping!
>
> Thanks to all for the kind comments. Constructive criticism is also quite
> welcome.
>
> Douglas Baldwin
> Alpha Coyote
> coyotelk@optonline.net
> www.TheCoyote.org
> www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin
>
> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production
> deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.
> -- Frank Zappa
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ed Durbrow 
> *To:* Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:52 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Guitar looping on YouTube
>
> Nice performance, very nice. But the question that immediately jumped into
> my head was: how is your room so orderly and uncluttered?
>
>  On Feb 7, 2013, at 8:02 AM, Douglas Baldwin 
> wrote:
>
>  Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing "The Long
> Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight
> Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0na2CtF3MU
>
> Douglas Baldwin
> Alpha Coyote
> coyotelk@optonline.net
> www.TheCoyote.org
> www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin
>
> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production
> deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.
> -- Frank Zappa
>
>
>  Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>
>
>

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my new favorite!

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1=
:08 AM, Douglas Baldwin <coyotelk@optonline.net> wrote:=











The reason why the room is so orderly is... it's not my room!

=A0


The performance was taped at a local cable TV studio, part of a series=
=20
called "Wes Houston Presents..." Lotsa good local original music =
in every=20
possible genre. Even looping!


=A0


Thanks to all for the kind comments. Constructive criticism is also qu=
ite=20
welcome.




=A0


"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring pro=
duction=20
deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  
From:=20
  Ed=20
  Durbrow 

  
  
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 =
10:52=20
  PM

  
Subject: Re: Guitar looping on=20
  YouTube

  

Nice performance, very nice. But the question that immedia=
tely=20
  jumped into my head was: how is your room so orderly and uncluttered?
  


  

  
On Feb 7, 2013, at 8:02 AM, Douglas Baldwin <coyotelk@optonline.net>=20
  wrote:


  

    

    
Howdy crew - Here's a link to a YouTube clip of me performing =
"The Long=20
    Dance." A shorter version of this piece is on the Loopers Delight=
=20
    Compilation CD, Vol. 3. Enjoy!

    
    

    
=A0

    
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring=
=20
    production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.=A0
-- Frank Zappa=A0

  





--000e0cd51d043f947504d57af5ff--

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Hi Kevin,

I was told when I was asked to do it, that he doesnt come to soundcheck,
and turns up 15 mins before, and its and I quote " A spliff, a group hug
and yer on!"
In actual fact we had a pretty good Sound check, and he was part of it. But
Yes, No pre-ordained plan or strategy.
I think the band was put together from people who KNOW how to improv, so we
were quite kind to each other, and gave spaces to each other, but Damo,
pretty much sang all the time... So no guitar solos or general wanking of
any kind... plus I should say that he doesnt ever play with the same band
twice. After Oslo he went off to do 5 or 6 nights in Sweden, and I asked
him if THAT would at least be the same band, he said "oh no!!"

M


On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 9:44 PM, Per Boysen  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:32 PM, mark francombe 
> wrote:
> >
>
> Cam sound was ok. Great to see this!
>
> Greetings from Sweden
>
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
>


-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--f46d042f9e00b1213804d57afb23
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Hi Kevin,

I was told when I was asked t=
o do it, that he doesnt come to soundcheck, and turns up 15 mins before, an=
d its and I quote " A spliff, a group hug and yer on!"=A0

In actual fact we had a pretty good Sound check, and he was part of it. But=
 Yes, No pre-ordained plan or strategy.
I think the band was put =
together from people who KNOW how to improv, so we were quite kind to each =
other, and gave spaces to each other, but Damo, pretty much sang all the ti=
me... So no guitar solos or general wanking of any kind... plus I should sa=
y that he doesnt ever play with the same band twice. After Oslo he went off=
 to do 5 or 6 nights in Sweden, and I asked him if THAT would at least be t=
he same band, he said "oh no!!"




M




On Mon, Feb 1=
1, 2013 at 9:44 PM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote=
:




On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:32 PM, mark franco=
mbe <mark@ma=
rkfrancombe.com> wrote:




>



Cam sound was ok. Great to see this!



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen







-- Mark Francombe



www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com



http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no



twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
<=
/font>



--f46d042f9e00b1213804d57afb23--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 02:31:36 2013
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Subject: OT: Gig with Damo
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wish i had been there,   way cool..
Bll

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 02:54:19 2013
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Subject: Live looping to Midi Clock solution sought!
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:54:13 -0800
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Its really difficult to figure out if you are looking for a software  
solution or a hardware solution for your rig,  if a software solution,  
I suggest hiring one of the capable wizards like Per for some Skype  
consult.
  Bill

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 05:58:26 2013
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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 23:32:13 -0500
To: DrTVideo@egroups.com
From: "Emile Tobenfeld (a.k.a Dr. T)" 
Subject: New video on You Tube
Cc: eyecandy@egroups.com, boss-improv@topica.com, iotacenter@egroups.com,
 Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com, atari-midi@yahoogroups.com,
 Frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com
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Hi folks,

I've posted another video on You Tube -- "Rumblings from an Outpost", 
from a December performance by Doctor T and the OUTPOST band. We will 
be playing at Outpost 186 this coming Sunday.

  There are also two brief abstract clips of falling snow taken 
during the recent blizzard 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP7VfrNeULY and 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXyC2pKwUFM

Enjoy!

BTW Some of my photography can be viewed at 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22231918@N06/collections/72157603627170351/
-- 
" Practice makes perfect, imperfect is better."  -- Paul Bley

		Emile Tobenfeld, Ph. D.
Video Producer			Image Processing Specialist
Video for your HEAD!			Boris FX
http://www.foryourhead.com		http://www.borisfx.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 08:49:51 2013
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Subject: Re: NOUNDO/GLOBAL LIVE LOOPING SOLUTION WITH USINE
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>Thanks Emmanuel!

>Love the video. Noundo looks very cool and I love the name. Usine was
>my favorite modular music software until I got lazy and decided to
>just stick with Ableton Live. Very impressive.

thanks Art. I must admit that Usine is quite opaque and thankless, I just b=
egin myself to manage it a very little bit, by dint of looking Jean-Fran=C3=
=A7ois Domingues patching during hours and hours. He is a natural born patc=
her, I'm just the guy who says "hey, Jeff, it would be cool if the looper 1=
 plays the loop while the looper 2 loops the 1 with a reverse and a half pi=
tch and sends the sound to the looper 3 through a delay, and only one trig =
to do that would be great, if you can, of course, I just ask, you know what=
 I mean..."
And he can.=20
My only talent , but I'm very good at this job, is to find the bugs, always=
 a lot in such a circular system.
The next version of Usine, Hoolyhook, for pc and Mac, will allow a modular =
version of Noundo, but not before 2014 :)

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 11:51:04 2013
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--047d7bacc178df056804d585a360
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I like to use a little radio with earbuds for inserting random dialogue and
music into loops. Hold the earbuds to the pickup and use effects to taste.
I especially like distortion and a whammy pedal.

2013/2/11 William Walker 

> 4. Any little hand held toy with a speaker and dialogue, I prefer the MR T
> in your pocket, but the remote control from the Beavis and Butthead big
> book of inactivity is also excellent. Talking dolls or little toy samplers.
> hey there's an idea,  a talking doll,  with a built in sampler, imagine
> creating your own...er dialogue for a doll like that? ok perhaps you better
> not
>  Bill
>
>
>
> --
>
jenko.nashorn@gmail.com <--jenko.nashorn@gmail.com>
http://soundcloud.com/jenko-nashorn

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I like to use a little radio with earbuds for inserting random dialogu=
e and music into loops. Hold the earbuds to the pickup and use effects to t=
aste. I especially like distortion and a whammy pedal.



2013/2/11 William Walker <<=
a href=3D"mailto:billwalker@baymoon.com" target=3D"_blank">billwalker@baymo=
on.com>


4. Any little hand held toy with a sp=
eaker and dialogue, I prefer the MR T in your pocket, but the remote contro=
l from the Beavis and Butthead big book of inactivity is also excellent. Ta=
lking dolls or little toy samplers. hey there's an idea, =A0a talking d=
oll, =A0with a built in sampler, imagine creating your own...er dialogue fo=
r a doll like that? ok perhaps you better not

=A0Bill



-- 


jenko.nas=
horn@gmail.com
http://soundcloud.com/jenko-nashorn 


--047d7bacc178df056804d585a360--

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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:01:02 +0100
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At Pr=C3=A9sences Electronique I used my electric shaving machine to induce
sound into the electro magnetic pickups of my instrument. A mobile
phone also works well for this (even stronger noise induction), but
only when someone is calling you and you are not answering. Rubber
bands on strings is one of my favorites for unique sounding overtones.
I've also tried thing metal bars but rubber bands are so fast to
arrange on the fly. The idea is to have something touch a string just
a little bit to push it over the edge into the vast space of un-known
overtone structures.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 16:04:57 2013
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:04:55 -0800 (PST)
From: ditch wrestler 
Reply-To: ditch wrestler 
Subject: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
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=0AIf you find the latest issue of Fretboard Journal (Kim Thayil of Soundga=
rden is on the cover), look inside for the pic of Fred Frith, a master of j=
amming crap in his guitar strings.=A0=A0Go here for a pic: http://www.fretb=
oardjournal.com/features/magazine/fred-frith and zoom in on the pic=0A=0ATo=
 add to Rick's list, Fred's got a paint brush, metal chains, foot roller, a=
nd pieces of paper...=0A=0AAnd don't forget Keith Rowe!=A0 Nice pics here o=
f the odds'n'sods he brings to=A0the table: http://preparedguitar.blogspot.=
ca/2012/11/keith-rowe.html=0A=0AAs a double bassist, I've put multiple skew=
ers in between the strings and then bowing between the skewers, put small u=
-clamps on a harmonic nodes, and use split rings (key rings).=A0 I saw Jane=
t Feder use split rings; go here for some clips & audio - http://www.npr.or=
g/2012/07/22/157169369/janet-feder-an-avant-garde-artist-takes-a-real-risk=
=0A=0AI also have a piece of wood that I've notched with the crudest saw I =
=0Acould find for 'col legno striato'...=A0 Run that over your strings and =
=0Ayou'll get a great sound.=0A=A0=0AI've also look every now and again for=
 a battery-operated drink stirrer - saw Eddie Prevost attach one to a gong =
and he got some great overtones; his solo gong (tam tam to the Brits) cd is=
 Entelechy and it's pretty good...=0A=0A=0A=0Athe other ted=0A=0A=0AOr woul=
d you sing somethin' different. Somethin' real. Somethin' *you* felt. Cause=
 I'm telling you right now, that's the kind of song people want to hear. Th=
at's the kind of song that truly saves people. It ain't got nothin to do wi=
th believin' in God, Mr. Cash. It has to do with believin' in yourself.   S=
am Phillips, "Walk the Line"=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A F=
rom: Tim Mungenast =0ATo: "Loopers-Delight@loopers-=
delight.com"  =0ASent: Saturday, Febru=
ary 9, 2013 12:35:43 PM=0ASubject: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (a=
nd any other performance)=0A  =0AGreat and useful info, and for most of the=
se you took the words right out of my mouth (lol). The only addendum I can =
think of is rubber objects, which make some odd sounds when used as a bow.=
=0A A kalimba held against a resonant guitar may sound good, especially wit=
h the guitar's gain jacked up, but I have not yet tried this and have no id=
ea if the reality will live up to the hope.=0A=0A=0A=A0=0ATim Mungenast=0AE=
ditor/Writer/Proofreader: www.linkedin.com/in/timmungenast=0AGuitarist/Comp=
oser/Vocalist: www.reverbnation.com/timmungenast=0A=0A=0A----- Original Mes=
sage -----=0AFrom: Rick Walker =0ATo: LOOPERS DELIGHT =
(posting) =0ACc: =0ASent: Saturday, Fe=
bruary 9, 2013 9:14 AM=0ASubject: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and an=
y other performance)=0A=0ATony's post about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar=
 Preparation got me inspired.=0A=0AI have experimented with a lot of=0A dif=
ferent ways to "prepare" instruments for unconventional=0Aperformance.=0A=
=0AI thought it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways e=
veryone on this list has=0Afigured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.=0A=
=0A=0AMy own tiny arsenal for guitar and other string 'preparation':=0A=0A=
=0A1)=A0 large and tiny alligagor clips=A0=A0 (the size has a huge impact o=
n the resultant timbre so try lots of different sizes)=0A2) Magnets-=A0=A0 =
from very tiny (Bucky Balls) to very large ones (these are very hip, especi=
ally when attached to alligator clips)=0A3)=A0 Martini skewers=A0 (I partic=
ularly love a set of blue plastic Tiki ones that I found because they have=
=0A=A0 =A0=A0 incredible bounce characteristic (not unlike hammer dulcimer =
mallets) and you can turn them over=0A=A0 =A0=A0 and use them as tiny plast=
ic 'slides'=A0 to change the pitch of the instrument=0A4)=A0 Suzuki 1/16 si=
zed=0A bows..................amazing and only=A0 $25 USD for a wonderful ap=
proach to any string instrument=0A5)=A0 E-bows and, better yet,=A0 multiple=
 E-bows..............make any multiple string instrument with metal strings=
 a fantastic drone instrument=0A6)=A0 Metallic Chinese 'health' balls (the =
ones that have little chimes inside of them).............try rolling these =
guys down any string instrument=0A=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 for random pitch shifting =
experiments=0A7)=A0=A0 Brushes of all kinds:=0A=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 a)=A0 vegetab=
le brushes=A0 (they come in varying 'stiffnesses' so their texture is diffe=
rent=0A=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 b)=A0 metallic (careful, these eat up strings on good=
 instruments)=A0 I love the kinds used , specifically, for flea eradication=
 on pets=0A=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 c)=A0 the ones that come off of temporary hair dy=
e products (specifically on 'Dye Hard' products or Hot Topic=0A 'Temporary =
Dye' products=0A=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 d) any drum stick or mallet you can think of=
 (I particularly love velcro-ing different kinds of bells and rattle sounds=
 to strikers like this)=0A8)=A0=A0 Slides of any kind=A0 (glass, metal, cer=
amic, bottle caps, backs of finger nails,=A0 any damn thing)=0A9)=A0 =A0=A0=
 Vibrators=A0 (again, anything--- back massagers, dildos, clitoral vibrator=
s,=A0 anything that vibrates a string potentially)=0A10)=A0=A0 Drills (agai=
n, anything that attaches to a drill that can cause rapid re-playing of the=
 string---Eddie Van Halen, notroriously used=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 guitar p=
icks inbedded into a drill bit that allowed for hyper, faster than human,=
=A0 picking techniques.=0A11)=A0=A0 Okay, there are more but I"m running ou=
t of steam...=0A12)=A0=A0 What the f*ck else?=0A=0ARick Walker
--902471806-2130803971-1360685095=:74786
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



If you find the latest issue of Fretboard Journal (Kim Thayil o=
f Soundgarden is on the cover), look inside for the pic of Fred Frith, a ma=
ster of jamming crap in his guitar strings.  Go here for a pic: h=
ttp://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/magazine/fred-frith and zoom in on =
the pic

To add to Rick's list, Fred's got a paint brush, metal chain=
s, foot roller, and pieces of paper...

And don't forget Keith Rowe!&=
nbsp; Nice pics here of the odds'n'sods he brings to the table: http:/=
/preparedguitar.blogspot.ca/2012/11/keith-rowe.html

As a double bass=
ist, I've put multiple skewers in between the strings and then bowing betwe=
en the skewers, put small u-clamps on a harmonic nodes, and use split rings=
 (key rings).  I saw Janet Feder use split rings; go here for
 some clips & audio -=0A http://www.npr.or=
g/2012/07/22/157169369/janet-feder-an-avant-garde-artist-takes-a-real-risk<=
/a>
 
I've also loo=
k every now and again for a battery-operated drink stirrer - saw Eddie Prev=
ost attach one to a gong and he got some great overtones; his solo gong (ta=
m tam to the Brits) cd is Entelechy and it's pretty good...
=
  
 
 
  
  From: Tim Mungenast <tmungenast@verizon.net>
 =
To: "Loopers-Delight@loope=
rs-delight.com" <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> 
 Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 12:=
35:43 PM
 Subject: Re: =
PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
  <=
/div> 
Great and useful
 info, and for most of these you took the words right out of my mouth (lol)=
. The only addendum I can think of is rubber objects, which make some odd s=
ounds when used as a bow.=0A A kalimba held against a resonant guitar may s=
ound good, especially with the guitar's gain jacked up, but I have not yet =
tried this and have no idea if the reality will live up to the hope.

 
Tim Mungenast
Editor/Writer/Proofreader: www.linkedin.com=
/in/timmungenast
Guitarist/Composer/Vocalist: www.reverbnation.com/timmu=
ngenast


----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com>
To: LOOP=
ERS DELIGHT (posting) <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
Cc: Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:14 AM
Subject: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS=
 for LOOPING (and any other performance)

Tony's post about Bart Hopk=
ins new book on Guitar Preparation
 got me inspired.

I have experimented with a lot of=0A different way=
s to "prepare" instruments for unconventional
performance.

I thou=
ght it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways everyone o=
n this list has
figured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.


M=
y own tiny arsenal for guitar and other string 'preparation':


1)=
  large and tiny alligagor clips   (the size has a huge impa=
ct on the resultant timbre so try lots of different sizes)
2) Magnets-&n=
bsp;  from very tiny (Bucky Balls) to very large ones (these are very =
hip, especially when attached to alligator clips)
3)  Martini skewe=
rs  (I particularly love a set of blue plastic Tiki ones that I found =
because they have
     incredible bounce characteristic (=
not unlike hammer dulcimer mallets) and you can turn them over
  &n=
bsp;  and use them as tiny plastic 'slides'  to change the pitch =
of the instrument
4)  Suzuki 1/16 sized=0A bows..................am=
azing and only  $25 USD for a wonderful approach to any string instrum=
ent
5)  E-bows and, better yet,  multiple E-bows..............=
make any multiple string instrument with metal strings a fantastic drone in=
strument
6)  Metallic Chinese 'health' balls (the ones that have li=
ttle chimes inside of them).............try rolling these guys down any str=
ing instrument
       for random pitch shifting expe=
riments
7)   Brushes of all kinds:
     &nbs=
p; a)  vegetable brushes  (they come in varying 'stiffnesses' so =
their texture is different
       b)  metallic =
(careful, these eat up strings on good instruments)  I love the kinds =
used , specifically, for flea eradication on pets
     &n=
bsp; c)  the ones that come off of temporary hair dye products (specif=
ically on 'Dye Hard' products or Hot Topic=0A 'Temporary Dye' products
&=
nbsp;      d) any drum stick or mallet you can think of (I p=
articularly love velcro-ing different kinds of bells and rattle sounds to s=
trikers like this)
8)   Slides of any kind  (glass, metal=
, ceramic, bottle caps, backs of finger nails,  any damn thing)
9)&=
nbsp;    Vibrators  (again, anything--- back massagers, dild=
os, clitoral vibrators,  anything that vibrates a string potentially)<=
br>10)   Drills (again, anything that attaches to a drill that ca=
n cause rapid re-playing of the string---Eddie Van Halen, notroriously used=

          guitar picks inbedded into a drill b=
it that allowed for hyper, faster than human,  picking techniques.
=
11)   Okay, there are more but I"m running out of steam...
12)=
   What the f*ck else?

Rick Walker



 
 =

  



 
 
  

--902471806-2130803971-1360685095=:74786--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 16:23:53 2013
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 16:23:49 +0000
From: Chrissie Caulfield 
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I've had great fun with paperclips on my violin. If you soak them in 
coke overnight then all the shiny coating cones off and they go all 
rough. Slid onto a violin string (the G works best as it doesn't ping 
off when you play) it makes a fabulously horrible grating sound.

Also I hung one on each of the strings just next to the bridge to get a 
metallic jangling sound when playing. I'm sure there are lots of other 
things you can do with them too :-)

Chrissie



On 09/02/13 14:14, Rick Walker wrote:
> Tony's post about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar Preparation got me
> inspired.
>
> I have experimented with a lot of different ways to "prepare"
> instruments for unconventional
> performance.
>
> I thought it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways
> everyone on this list has
> figured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.
>
>
> My own tiny arsenal for guitar and other string 'preparation':
>
>
> 1)  large and tiny alligagor clips   (the size has a huge impact on the
> resultant timbre so try lots of different sizes)
> 2) Magnets-   from very tiny (Bucky Balls) to very large ones (these are
> very hip, especially when attached to alligator clips)
> 3)  Martini skewers  (I particularly love a set of blue plastic Tiki
> ones that I found because they have
>       incredible bounce characteristic (not unlike hammer dulcimer
> mallets) and you can turn them over
>       and use them as tiny plastic 'slides'  to change the pitch of the
> instrument
> 4)  Suzuki 1/16 sized bows..................amazing and only  $25 USD
> for a wonderful approach to any string instrument
> 5)  E-bows and, better yet,  multiple E-bows..............make any
> multiple string instrument with metal strings a fantastic drone instrument
> 6)  Metallic Chinese 'health' balls (the ones that have little chimes
> inside of them).............try rolling these guys down any string
> instrument
>         for random pitch shifting experiments
> 7)   Brushes of all kinds:
>         a)  vegetable brushes  (they come in varying 'stiffnesses' so
> their texture is different
>         b)  metallic (careful, these eat up strings on good
> instruments)  I love the kinds used , specifically, for flea eradication
> on pets
>         c)  the ones that come off of temporary hair dye products
> (specifically on 'Dye Hard' products or Hot Topic 'Temporary Dye' products
>         d) any drum stick or mallet you can think of (I particularly
> love velcro-ing different kinds of bells and rattle sounds to strikers
> like this)
>   8)   Slides of any kind  (glass, metal, ceramic, bottle caps, backs of
> finger nails,  any damn thing)
> 9)     Vibrators  (again, anything--- back massagers, dildos, clitoral
> vibrators,  anything that vibrates a string potentially)
> 10)   Drills (again, anything that attaches to a drill that can cause
> rapid re-playing of the string---Eddie Van Halen, notroriously used
>            guitar picks inbedded into a drill bit that allowed for
> hyper, faster than human,  picking techniques.
> 11)   Okay, there are more but I"m running out of steam...
> 12)   What the f*ck else?
>
> Rick Walker
>
>


-- 
Chrissie

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 12 22:50:30 2013
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:50:29 -0800
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Subject: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
From: Matt Davignon 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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A long, long time ago (~1996), prepared guitar was one of the big things I
did. I wasn't terribly good at it.

I was a big fan of "drumstick as an alternate bridge". This requires you to
tune the strings down so that they won't snap when you wedge a 1/2"
drumstick underneath. You can use the drumstick as a tremolo bar. You can
grab it with your hand and move the bridge, like Bradford Reed (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btkf0BxM2Fo - apologies for the
hippy-dancing cameraperson). You can also swat the drumstick with your hand
and get a nice vibrating sound. If you are not also a drummer, consider
trading a new pair of sticks for a drummer's old beat-up sticks. They make
great sounds when you pull them under the strings.

I also enjoyed textured metal slides. I used to be good with a 9v battery,
that after a year or so of use had lots of nice peaks and valleys in it.
(I'd move the slide perpendicularly across the strings to make sound, so
that I didn't need a pick.) I also used a textured metal handle from an
exacto knife. (With the blade removed.) Without this, I'd maybe take a
screwdriver or knitting needles and see if I can rough up the texture with
some coarse sandpaper or something.

A regular slip of paper threaded through the strings can make a nice
buzzing sound.

Fred Frith frequently uses a silk ribbon to get nice sounds...you can tell
that takes a lot of practice, though.


-- 
Matt Davignon
mattdavignon@gmail.com
www.ribosomemusic.com
Podcast! http://ribosomematt.podomatic.com

Rick Walker  was all:

> Tony's post about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar Preparation got me
> inspired.
>
> I have experimented with a lot of different ways to "prepare" instruments
> for unconventional
> performance.
>
> I thought it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways
> everyone on this list has
> figured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.
>

--bcaec51d2c3a39569404d58eda33
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A long, long time ago (~1996), prepared guitar was one of the big things I =
did. I wasn't terribly good at it.

I was a big fan of "drum=
stick as an alternate bridge". This requires you to tune the strings d=
own so that they won't snap when you wedge a 1/2" drumstick undern=
eath. You can use the drumstick as a tremolo bar. You can grab it with your=
 hand and move the bridge, like Bradford Reed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBtkf0BxM2Fo - apologies for the hippy-dancing cameraperson). You can also swat the d=
rumstick with your hand and get a nice vibrating sound. If you are not also=
 a drummer, consider trading a new pair of sticks for a drummer's old b=
eat-up sticks. They make great sounds when you pull them under the strings.=



I also enjoyed textured metal slides. I used to be good with a 9v batte=
ry, that after a year or so of use had lots of nice peaks and valleys in it=
. (I'd move the slide perpendicularly across the strings to make sound,=
 so that I didn't need a pick.) I also used a textured metal handle fro=
m an exacto knife. (With the blade removed.) Without this, I'd maybe ta=
ke a screwdriver or knitting needles and see if I can rough up the texture =
with some coarse sandpaper or something.


A regular slip of paper threaded through the strings can make a nice bu=
zzing sound. 

Fred Frith frequently uses a silk ribbon to get nice s=
ounds...you can tell that takes a lot of practice, though.


-- 
Matt Davignon
mattdavignon@gmail.com
www.ribosomemusic.com
Podcast! http://ribosomematt.podomatic.co=
m


Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com> was all:

Tony's post about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar Preparation got me in=
spired.



I have experimented with a lot of different ways to "prepare" ins=
truments for unconventional

performance.



I thought it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways ever=
yone on this list has

figured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.





--bcaec51d2c3a39569404d58eda33--

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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:38:17 -0500
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
From: Jeffrey Collins 
To: "Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com" 
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--047d7bf0f002205e9b04d58f85a2
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Fred Frith ain't got nothing on me when it comes to Prepared Guitar. But I
never got very far outside of making the music.

http://jeffreycollins.bandcamp.com/

I'm sure some of the old LD gang will remember me. We used to trade tapes a
bunch. I took all my old PG stuff and digitized and remastered it. I loved
doing prepared guitar pieces. Still do them every now and again. Always
making sure to record the piece.

My favorite thing to use was this brass bookmark my Mother gave me. It
really made the strings get a bell-like sound.

Thanks Matt for bringing this all back up. Yeah mine was between 96-98 too.

Jeffrey


On Tuesday, February 12, 2013, Matt Davignon wrote:

> A long, long time ago (~1996), prepared guitar was one of the big things I
> did. I wasn't terribly good at it.
>
> I was a big fan of "drumstick as an alternate bridge". This requires you
> to tune the strings down so that they won't snap when you wedge a 1/2"
> drumstick underneath. You can use the drumstick as a tremolo bar. You can
> grab it with your hand and move the bridge, like Bradford Reed (
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btkf0BxM2Fo - apologies for the
> hippy-dancing cameraperson). You can also swat the drumstick with your hand
> and get a nice vibrating sound. If you are not also a drummer, consider
> trading a new pair of sticks for a drummer's old beat-up sticks. They make
> great sounds when you pull them under the strings.
>
> I also enjoyed textured metal slides. I used to be good with a 9v battery,
> that after a year or so of use had lots of nice peaks and valleys in it.
> (I'd move the slide perpendicularly across the strings to make sound, so
> that I didn't need a pick.) I also used a textured metal handle from an
> exacto knife. (With the blade removed.) Without this, I'd maybe take a
> screwdriver or knitting needles and see if I can rough up the texture with
> some coarse sandpaper or something.
>
> A regular slip of paper threaded through the strings can make a nice
> buzzing sound.
>
> Fred Frith frequently uses a silk ribbon to get nice sounds...you can tell
> that takes a lot of practice, though.
>
>
> --
> Matt Davignon
> mattdavignon@gmail.com  'mattdavignon@gmail.com');>
> www.ribosomemusic.com
> Podcast! http://ribosomematt.podomatic.com
>
> Rick Walker  'looppool@cruzio.com');>> was all:
>
>> Tony's post about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar Preparation got me
>> inspired.
>>
>> I have experimented with a lot of different ways to "prepare" instruments
>> for unconventional
>> performance.
>>
>> I thought it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways
>> everyone on this list has
>> figured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.
>>
>
>

--047d7bf0f002205e9b04d58f85a2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fred Frith ain't got nothing on me when it comes to Prepared Guitar. Bu=
t I never got very far outside of making the music.


I'm sure some of the old LD gang will remembe=
r me. We used to trade tapes a bunch. I took all my old PG stuff and digiti=
zed and remastered it. I loved doing prepared guitar pieces. Still do them =
every now and again. Always making sure to record the piece.



My favorite thing to use was this brass bookmark my Mot=
her gave me. It really made the strings get a bell-like sound.
Thanks Matt for bringing this all back up. Yeah mine was betwe=
en 96-98 too.



Jeffrey


On Tuesday, February 12, 2013=
, Matt Davignon  wrote:
A long, long time=
 ago (~1996), prepared guitar was one of the big things I did. I wasn't=
 terribly good at it.


I was a big fan of "drumstick as an alternate bridge". This r=
equires you to tune the strings down so that they won't snap when you w=
edge a 1/2" drumstick underneath. You can use the drumstick as a tremo=
lo bar. You can grab it with your hand and move the bridge, like Bradford R=
eed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBtkf0BxM2Fo - apologies for the h=
ippy-dancing cameraperson). You can also swat the drumstick with your hand =
and get a nice vibrating sound. If you are not also a drummer, consider tra=
ding a new pair of sticks for a drummer's old beat-up sticks. They make=
 great sounds when you pull them under the strings.



I also enjoyed textured metal slides. I used to be good with a 9v batte=
ry, that after a year or so of use had lots of nice peaks and valleys in it=
. (I'd move the slide perpendicularly across the strings to make sound,=
 so that I didn't need a pick.) I also used a textured metal handle fro=
m an exacto knife. (With the blade removed.) Without this, I'd maybe ta=
ke a screwdriver or knitting needles and see if I can rough up the texture =
with some coarse sandpaper or something.



A regular slip of paper threaded through the strings can make a nice bu=
zzing sound. 

Fred Frith frequently uses a silk ribbon to get nice s=
ounds...you can tell that takes a lot of practice, though.



-- 

Matt Davignon
mattdavignon@gmail.com
www.ribosomemusic.co=
m

Podcast! ht=
tp://ribosomematt.podomatic.com


Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.=
com> was all:


Tony's post about Bart Hopkins new book on Guitar Preparation got me in=
spired.



I have experimented with a lot of different ways to "prepare" ins=
truments for unconventional

performance.



I thought it would be cool to assemble all the different creative ways ever=
yone on this list has

figured out how to 'prepare' an instrument.







--047d7bf0f002205e9b04d58f85a2--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 13 05:03:52 2013
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 21:03:52 -0800
From: Rick Walker 
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Super balls are also really nice.

They really develop a lot of friction on any surface that they are 
dragged across.

I'm really into preparing my drum set and other drums (frame drums 
especially).

Lately, I'm doing a version of 'Sunflower' by Milt Jackson in my weekly 
jazz gig
where I start the whole tune out with a long dream modal jam (before 
hitting the head when
the rhythm comes in).     I use two super ball mallets with extremely 
thin and flexible plastic
rods attached to make moaning 'whale', 'dolphin' sounds in a rubato fashion.
Eventually, I morph to play the toms and snareless snares with the super 
balls as
normal drum mallets (this sounds a bit african hand dum-ish).

It's really effective and almost always gets the patrons of the 
restaurant I play
at to suddenly stop talking and pay attention to the music (always a 
good thing - 
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	id 033B01834C1; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:35:54 +0000 (UTC)
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 00:34:38 -0500
To: DrTVideo@egroups.com
From: "Emile Tobenfeld (a.k.a Dr. T)" 
Subject: Video Performances this weekend
Cc: eyecandy@egroups.com, boss-improv@topica.com, iotacenter@egroups.com,
 Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com, atari-midi@yahoogroups.com,
 Frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com
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Hi folks,


February 16 is my next "Moving with the Light" Concert and Dance Jam 
at 119 Gallery in Lowell, with music by Eric Crawley, Harpejji, and 
Dave Bryant, keyboards and YOU -- movement --  All styles and skill 
levels welcome.

Moving with the Light is a monthly event at which improvised 
movement, music, and video interact as equals -- each responding to 
and respectful of the others.

The musicians will play improvised music suitable for contact 
improvisation and other forms of gentle movement, while I improvise 
imagery and all three of us react to the dancers as well as to each 
other.

February 17 is my next Visual Music Live event at Outpost 186 in 
Cambridge, featuring The OUTPOST Band
Doctor T -- Video mixing
Eric Zinman --Drums
Andrea Pensado -- Electronics and voice
Michael Bloom  -- Table Guitar and bouzouki
Rick Scott -- Keyboard

Improvisation to the outer limits. Expect the unexpected-:)

-- 
My photography can be viewed at 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22231918@N06/collections/72157603627170351/

My videos can be viewed at
http://www.youtube.com/Tobenfeld

		Emile Tobenfeld, Ph. D.
Video Producer			Image Processing Specialist
Video for your HEAD!			Boris FX
http://www.foryourhead.com		http://www.borisfx.com

"My destination is always the same, but I work out a different route 
to get there"  -- Henri Matisse

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 13 11:29:13 2013
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--f46d042f9c5e887c8904d599737c
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Im off to Italy for a gig on Saturday in a place called Trento. Due to
baggage restrictions Ive decided to NOT take my FCB1010 and rely instead on
A) pressing buttons on the front panel, and B) triggering commands using
iPad >missing link. I rehearsed this yesterday and it went OK. As I am
synching to midi clock from my colleagues Ableton Live, I don't have to be
too accurate with the record button, but found that some things just dont
work with tapping the iPad.

QUESTION 1
Now its been a while since using the Standard EDP pedal, but was wondering
(after checking the manual) If I plug in ONE pedal into one EDP, does it
trigger both when linked via brother synch and midi ) and set to synch out?

The diagram for stereo operation shows ONE pedal plugged into one EDP, but
presumably with trigger both. This may be OK for some situations, stereo
for example, but what happens if I have already started both EDPs seperatly
and are running, synched, but different lengths?

I cant test cos I need to go to my old house to pick it up, I will now only
have the sound check to test it with.

QUESTION 2
Further to this, would it be possible to somehow split the pedal cable
via foot-switches to use one pedal for one EDP the other pedal, and BOTH!

Yours, space saving...

Mark

-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--f46d042f9c5e887c8904d599737c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Im off to Italy for a gig on Saturday in a place called Tr=
ento. Due to baggage restrictions Ive decided to NOT take my FCB1010 and re=
ly instead on A) pressing buttons on the front panel, and B) triggering com=
mands using iPad >missing link. I rehearsed this yesterday and it went O=
K. As I am synching to midi clock from my=A0colleagues=A0Ableton Live, I=A0=
don't=A0have to be too accurate with the record button, but found that =
some things just dont work with tapping the iPad.



QUESTION 1
Now its been a while since using =
the Standard EDP pedal, but was wondering (after checking the manual) If I =
plug in ONE pedal into one EDP, does it trigger both when linked via brothe=
r synch and midi ) and set to synch out?




The diagram for stereo operation shows ONE pedal plugge=
d into one EDP, but presumably with trigger both. This may be OK for some s=
ituations, stereo for example, but what happens if I have already started b=
oth EDPs seperatly and are running, synched, but different lengths?




I cant test cos I need to go to my old house to pick it=
 up, I will now only have the sound check to test it with.

QUESTION 2
Further to this, would it be possible to some=
how split the pedal cable via=A0foot-switches=A0to use one pedal for one ED=
P the other pedal, and BOTH!




Yours, space saving...



--f46d042f9c5e887c8904d599737c--

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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:05:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Mungenast 
Reply-To: Tim Mungenast 
Subject: Re: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
To: "Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com" 
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--714497178-555564940-1360767957=:9088
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=0A=0AThis is all very useful and exciting information. :-)=0A=A0=0ATim Mun=
genast=0AEditor/Writer/Proofreader:www.linkedin.com/in/timmungenast=0AGuita=
rist/Composer/Vocalist:www.reverbnation.com/timmungenast=0A=0A=0A__________=
______________________=0A From: Rick Walker =0ATo: LOO=
PERS DELIGHT (posting)  =0ASent: Wedne=
sday, February 13, 2013 12:03 AM=0ASubject: Re: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS f=
or LOOPING (and any other performance)=0A =0ASuper balls are also really ni=
ce.=0A=0AThey really develop a lot of friction on any surface that they are=
 dragged across.=0A=0AI'm really into preparing my drum set and other drums=
 (frame drums especially).=0A=0ALately, I'm doing a version of 'Sunflower' =
by Milt Jackson in my weekly jazz gig=0Awhere I start the whole tune out wi=
th a long dream modal jam (before hitting the head when=0Athe rhythm comes =
in).=A0 =A0  I use two super ball mallets with extremely thin and flexible =
plastic=0Arods attached to make moaning 'whale', 'dolphin' sounds in a ruba=
to fashion.=0AEventually, I morph to play the toms and snareless snares wit=
h the super balls as=0Anormal drum mallets (this sounds a bit african hand =
dum-ish).=0A=0AIt's really effective and almost always gets the patrons of =
the restaurant I play=0Aat to suddenly stop talking and pay attention to th=
e music (always a good thing - 
This is all very useful and exciting information. :-)=

 
Tim MungenastEditor/Writer/Proofreader:www.linkedin.com/in/timmungenast
Guitarist/Composer/Vocalist:www.reverbnation.c=
om/timmungenast
    
 
 
  
  From: Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.c=
om>
 To: LOOPERS DEL=
IGHT (posting) <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> 
 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12=
:03 AM
 Subject: Re: Re=
: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
 =
 
 
=0ASuper balls are also really nice.

They really develop=
 a lot of friction on any surface that they are dragged across.

I'm =
really into preparing my drum set and other drums (frame drums especially).=


Lately, I'm doing a version of 'Sunflower' by Milt Jackson in my we=
ekly jazz gig
where I start the whole tune out with a long dream modal j=
am (before hitting the head when
the rhythm comes in).     I u=
se two super ball mallets with extremely thin and flexible plastic
rods =
attached to make moaning 'whale', 'dolphin' sounds in a rubato fashion.
=
Eventually, I morph to play the toms and snareless snares with the super ba=
lls as
normal drum mallets (this sounds a bit african hand dum-ish).
=

It's really effective and almost always gets the patrons of the restaur=
ant I play
at to suddenly stop talking and pay attention to the music (a=
lways a good thing - <smile).

I'm also fond of using different si=
zes of
 chain (from the kind found on typical light fixtures- the ones
that are=
 a series of connected metal balls--to very large 1 inch oval chains used f=
or hauling things
on my cymbals and drums.

I found some really ki=
ller skinny metal keychain holders.   They are circular and have a fas=
tener that
allows you to put the ring over a typical cymbal stand holder=
 with the lengths of chain attached.
One, that I love is the largest and=
 I cut it's length so that it hangs down over the end of the cymbal
by o=
ne or two links only.     The weight is so heavy, hanging off the=
 flat ride cymbal or crash cymbal
that it causes a buzzing, disortion so=
und when I hit it that it physical 'gate's  the disortion sound quickl=
y
after I strike the cymbal.

Last week,  I tried out a very,=
 very slow, version of Brubeck's Take Five with cymbals prepared this way t=
hat came off like
an almost Industrial Blues.

That brings
 us to brushes (of all kinds):    commercial brushes used for dru=
mming,  cheap plastic hand brooms,  different thicknesses
and =
hardnesses of vegetable brushes,   even some metal flea removal brushe=
s that I bought recently.

With the metal flea brushes (which, I warn=
 you, are Very hard on guitar strings), you can actually tape or glue a pie=
zo
pick up to them, because when you play over a guitar string, the meta=
l tines themselves will resonate like little harps.

These sound AMAZ=
ING through pitch shifters and other processing.

With drumset brushe=
s, there has been a tremendous explosion in the number of commercial 'jazz'=
 brushes that are being
sold commercially in the last two or three years=
 alone.

They make them with really soft flexible blue nylon 'wire's,=
  medium soft white nylon wires,  hard and thick black nylon wire=
s:
they have new versions that have really minute balls at their
 ends which are more percussive on metal surfaces and, of course, there are=

different thicknesses and stiffnesses of wire bristles from the origina=
l concept for them.

They sound good on almost anything that resonate=
s.     I've even considered taking one of my miniature electric g=
uitars (I've collected
four of them) and super glueing different texture=
s to the surface with a piezo pickup attached to the body so I could both d=
rum, scrape
and play my 'prepared' guitar.



 
 
=
  

--714497178-555564940-1360767957=:9088--

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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 09:09:35 -0800 (PST)
From: bill bigrig 
Reply-To: bill bigrig 
Subject: Re: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (and any other performance)
To: "Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com" 
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--1552829269-155868137-1360775375=:52773
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Are you going to make transducers with the Radio-Shack 273-064? I've got lo=
ts of them and they work really well. No preamp required. The one place I h=
ave not ben lucky with is acoustic guitar. Everything else, violin, mandoli=
n, etc. etc. plus any objet that makes noise.=0ARig=0A=0A=0A_______________=
_________________=0AFrom: Rick Walker =0ATo: LOOPERS D=
ELIGHT (posting)  =0ASent: Tuesday, Fe=
bruary 12, 2013 9:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPIN=
G (and any other performance)=0A=0ASuper balls are also really nice.=0A=0AT=
hey really develop a lot of friction on any surface that they are dragged a=
cross.=0A=0AI'm really into preparing my drum set and other drums (frame dr=
ums especially).=0A=0ALately, I'm doing a version of 'Sunflower' by Milt Ja=
ckson in my weekly jazz gig=0Awhere I start the whole tune out with a long =
dream modal jam (before hitting the head when=0Athe rhythm comes in).=A0 =
=A0 I use two super ball mallets with extremely thin and flexible plastic=
=0Arods attached to make moaning 'whale', 'dolphin' sounds in a rubato fash=
ion.=0AEventually, I morph to play the toms and snareless snares with the s=
uper balls as=0Anormal drum mallets (this sounds a bit african hand dum-ish=
).=0A=0AIt's really effective and almost always gets the patrons of the res=
taurant I play=0Aat to suddenly stop talking and pay attention to the music=
 (always a good thing - 
Are you going to make transducers with th=
e Radio-Shack 273-064? I've got lots of them and they work really well. No =
preamp required. The one place I have not ben lucky with is acoustic guitar=
. Everything else, violin, mandolin, etc. etc. plus any objet that makes no=
ise.


Rig











From:=
 Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com>
To: LOOPERS DELIGHT (posting) <Loopers-Delig=
ht@loopers-delight.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: Re: PREPARING INSTRUMENTS for LOOPING (an=
d any other performance)

Super balls are also really ni=
ce.

They really develop a lot of friction on any surface that they a=
re dragged across.

I'm really into preparing my drum set and other d=
rums (frame
 drums especially).

Lately, I'm doing a version of 'Sunflower' by Mi=
lt Jackson in my weekly jazz gig
where I start the whole tune out with a=
 long dream modal jam (before hitting the head when
the rhythm comes in)=
.    I use two super ball mallets with extremely thin and flexibl=
e plastic
rods attached to make moaning 'whale', 'dolphin' sounds in a r=
ubato fashion.
Eventually, I morph to play the toms and snareless snares=
 with the super balls as
normal drum mallets (this sounds a bit african =
hand dum-ish).

It's really effective and almost always gets the patr=
ons of the restaurant I play
at to suddenly stop talking and pay attenti=
on to the music (always a good thing - <smile).

I'm also fond of =
using different sizes of chain (from the kind found on typical light fixtur=
es- the ones
that are a series of connected metal balls--to very large 1=
 inch oval chains used for hauling things
on my cymbals and
 drums.

I found some really killer skinny metal keychain holders.&nb=
sp; They are circular and have a fastener that
allows you to put the rin=
g over a typical cymbal stand holder with the lengths of chain attached.One, that I love is the largest and I cut it's length so that it hangs dow=
n over the end of the cymbal
by one or two links only.    The =
weight is so heavy, hanging off the flat ride cymbal or crash cymbal
tha=
t it causes a buzzing, disortion sound when I hit it that it physical 'gate=
's  the disortion sound quickly
after I strike the cymbal.

L=
ast week,  I tried out a very, very slow, version of Brubeck's Take Fi=
ve with cymbals prepared this way that came off like
an almost Industria=
l Blues.

That brings us to brushes (of all kinds):    comm=
ercial brushes used for drumming,  cheap plastic hand brooms,  di=
fferent thicknesses
and hardnesses of vegetable brushes, 
 even some metal flea removal brushes that I bought recently.

With t=
he metal flea brushes (which, I warn you, are Very hard on guitar strings),=
 you can actually tape or glue a piezo
pick up to them, because when you=
 play over a guitar string, the metal tines themselves will resonate like l=
ittle harps.

These sound AMAZING through pitch shifters and other pr=
ocessing.

With drumset brushes, there has been a tremendous explosio=
n in the number of commercial 'jazz' brushes that are being
sold commerc=
ially in the last two or three years alone.

They make them with real=
ly soft flexible blue nylon 'wire's,  medium soft white nylon wires,&n=
bsp; hard and thick black nylon wires:
they have new versions that have =
really minute balls at their ends which are more percussive on metal surfac=
es and, of course, there are
different thicknesses and stiffnesses of wi=
re bristles from the original concept for them.

They sound
 good on almost anything that resonates.    I've even considered =
taking one of my miniature electric guitars (I've collected
four of them=
) and super glueing different textures to the surface with a piezo pickup a=
ttached to the body so I could both drum, scrape
and play my 'prepared' =
guitar.




--1552829269-155868137-1360775375=:52773--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 13 17:16:02 2013
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Message-ID: 
From: info@riversonicstudios.com
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: Re: Live looping to Midi Clock solution sought!
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:15:36 +0000 (GMT)
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Hi Per,

Thanks so much for getti=
ng back to me!

The KRONOS is my mi=
diclock master at the moment as it drives=
 the Waldorf Q, Pulse+ and the Andromedas midi=
 clocks for syncing LFOs and sequencers/arps etc.&n=
bsp;However I will certainly read through your=
 email to digest your info in greater ref=
erence tonight and ping you back real soon&nbs=
p;hopefully with some progress!

Yes! Logic i=
s crap with midiclock! and in fact I have=
 dropped it only recently using Ableton instead if only =
for live performance use! I will look at&=
nbsp;Ableton, Mobius and SooperLooper for a so=
lution! I only tend to use Ableton for triggering long drum backing tracks o=
r (at the moment pending a looping solution!) full instrumental middle 8 sol=
oing sections that I trigger from one shot keyboard triggers when I want to =
solo on the sax.

I have managed to sort half=
 my live set out and failing finding =
;a solution immediately to the looping I =
can always play less intricate versions of&nbs=
p;some of my material for the giggs I have imminent=
ly !

However it is something I must overcome=
. The main thing is that for a keybo=
ard player I need to be able to reco=
rd the loop without having to think about=
 it 
in terms of timing on stage, =
;thats why the punch in/out and immediate =
;playback has to be quantised to midi clo=
ck. I find the SoftStep has great functio=
nallity but lacks the physical feel of so=
mething
 like the Behringer unit for examp=
le (F1010 is it?). I have 2 sustain, =
;one switch and 2 EV5 volume pedals at&nb=
sp;my feet already and whenever 
I h=
ave to hit a pad on the SoftStep to kick =
out say an arpeggiator coming from the Waldorf Q, in the heat of a performan=
ce I have to look down to watch my footwork :&=
nbsp;unfortunately the SoftStep wasnt designed for keyboard&n=
bsp;players! Your instruction re the quantise =
by bar in Ableton for 
recording the loop =
;makes easy sense. I think it will be&nbs=
p;the muting or the halting/resuming of the&nb=
sp;original sounds that may prove a little&nbs=
p;tricky to accomplish! I have had digital desks in the past and t=
hey all sound rubbish compared to analog. There are a few older analog racks=
 that have midi muting on them- that may be a solution. However I think the =
best plan is to look at halting the background sound rather that trying to m=
ute it while the loop is being played. 

I have actuall=
y only just moved with all my studio =
;kit to Nimes and as my studio business&n=
bsp;is somewhat in the air at the moment&=
nbsp;(hoping to resurrect RIVERSONIC STUDIOS somewhere in the South Of France)=
 I decided to go out on the road for the next year or so with my music. I ha=
ve a big filmatic sound live: trouble is to get that sound one has to port a=
 fair amount of hardware and then find a way to keep its sonic potential und=
er a leash with only one pair of hands and feet!

Thanks a=
gain for your response, forgive me if mine has been slow but I am still sett=
ling in here and have yet to sort my home internet connection etc!

Be in touch soon,

Thanks again,

Best wishes

Henry


=



>---- Original Message ----
>From: =
Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com>
>To: Loopers-Del=
ight@loopers-delight.com
>Sent: Mon, Feb 11, 2013,=
 9:11 PM
>Subject: Re: Live looping to&n=
bsp;Midi Clock solution sought!
>
>Hi Henry,=

>
>That's a lot of gadget you hav=
e going. I read it carefully but never>understood what you you are going to =
;use as the source for the MIDI
>clock&n=
bsp;that you want everything to follow? What&n=
bsp;you want to do is
>possible and rath=
er simple to set up. Are you familiar&nbs=
p;with the gear
>and software? In case n=
ot, read up! There are two important aspe=
cts:
>First you need to decide on the&nb=
sp;tempo master (where the MIDI Clock
>sync&n=
bsp;signal is generated and distributed to all=
 the slaves). The
>looping you are descr=
ibing is the very simplest form of quanti=
zed
>looping. "Quantize" in live looping does=
 not mean that the audio is
>quantized&n=
bsp;- like in a sequencer - but rather&nb=
sp;that the command you give
>is to be&n=
bsp;executed at a certain time cue, for e=
xample "at the next bar
>downbeat". If y=
ou decide to use the Looper plugin of&nbs=
p;Ableton live you
>just chose "bar" as =
quantize value. If you decide to use Mobi=
us you
>make a similar choice in the&nbs=
p;plugin's preferences. But most loopers
>doesn't&=
nbsp;think in terms like "bars" but rather&nbs=
p;in terms like "loop",
>"cycle" and "sub&nbs=
p;cycle".
>
>For example if you are run=
ning Mobius as a plugin of Live you =
set Live
>to follow the external MIDI cl=
ock signal (wherever that comes from)
>and&nb=
sp;then you set the Mobius plugin to foll=
ow "host sync" and finally
>you set quan=
tize for the Mobius plugin to "cycle". "C=
ycle" is the name
>for the very first&nb=
sp;loop you create and if the first loop&=
nbsp;you catch is
>one bar long (from Li=
ve's perspective of liner time) the actual
=
>commands quantizing in Mobius will work on=
 a one bar grid.
>
>The other stuf=
f you are mentioning is simply a question=
 about signal
>routing and nothing I can=
 help you with. Whatever signal you rout&=
nbsp;into
>the looper will be looped if =
you put the looper into Overdub Mode (or<=
br>>similar). For the Mobius looper there i=
s a Global Mute command and by
>its =
;preferences you may decide how the un-mute&nb=
sp;will be handled; by
>following the linear&=
nbsp;time (MIDI Clock/Host sync), by restarting&nbs=
p;from
>loop its beginning or by continuing&n=
bsp;from exactly where you muted (like
>"paus=
" on a tape machine).
>
>Now decide&nbs=
p;on what to use and set up the sign=
al routing! Oh, one more
>thing: if you&=
nbsp;plan on using both Logic and Live at=
 the same time I
>would not recommend&nb=
sp;that. The reason is that Logic can't f=
ollow MIDI
>Clock (Apple took it out bec=
ause it is such a bad sync protocol)
&=
gt;unless you have an old copy of Logic,&=
nbsp;7.xx version. You can generate
>audio fi=
les in Logic that you run in Live. I=
f you have to use software
>instruments =
in Logic it might be a more stable s=
olution to run them by
>Mainstage instead.&nb=
sp;You may still run loopers and back tra=
ck audio
>files in Mainstage but with a&=
nbsp;better visual display and more stable.
>=

>Greetings from Sweden
>
>Per Boysen
&g=
t;www.perboysen.com
>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
><=
br>>On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:22 PM,&n=
bsp; <info@riversonicstudios.com> wrote:
>> Hi=
 Per,
>>
>> I am a pro solo&=
nbsp;singer-songwriter (box,alto sax keys, guitar) =
now based in
>> Nimes, France and am&=
nbsp;busy preparing my rig/musical arrangements for=
 various
>> European tours later this =
;year.
>>
>> Steven Bingham suggested =
I contact you. I am seeking a way to=
 work my rig so
>> I can play&nb=
sp;the sax over my music in my shows.
=
>> Sorry to spring this one on you&=
nbsp;but it sounds like you are the real<=
br>>> authority on this subject!
>>
&g=
t;> Am keen to find a way to allo=
w me to  punch in/record a section o=
f the
>> complete live mix, quantised =
;to midi clock, as I am playing it o=
n the
>> keyboards to then punch out&=
nbsp;of recording and then have that recorded&=
nbsp;loop
>> playback instantaneously so I =
;can let go of the keys
>>  and&=
nbsp;play my sax over what I have just&nb=
sp;looped, muting the original at the
>>&n=
bsp;same time of course, all on the fly!&=
nbsp;I dont want to be doing this without=

>> the loop punch in/outs
>> &nb=
sp;being quantised to MidiClock so I dont =
;have to be precise with the punches
>&g=
t; all be it punching in/out before the&n=
bsp;place I wish to do so!. Somehow I&nbs=
p;also
>> need to have the
>> mai=
n mix muted automatically while the loop =
is playing back and then return
>> wh=
en switching the loop off to continue thr=
ough the rest of the song. Bare
>>&nb=
sp;in mind I maybe
>> also trigering =
arpeggiators from external synths as well as&n=
bsp;KARMA from the
>> KRONOS and playing&n=
bsp;back complete drum backing tracks from my&=
nbsp;MacBook in
>> ABLETON
>>  LIVE&nb=
sp;or Logic Audio. It is also possible fo=
r the KRONOS to sync to mid
>> c=
lock: at the moment I use it as the&=
nbsp;master midi clock. There are various
>&g=
t; ways of using the
>> KRONOS to&nbs=
p;trigger loops and drum sequences in sync&nbs=
p;via struck keys and
>> certainly the&nbs=
p;SoftStep can be utilised for this purpose&nb=
sp;too although it is
>> not ideal fo=
r keyboard
>>  players as often one&n=
bsp;needs to "feel" a pedal switch "click"&nbs=
p;rather than
>> having to confirm it =
;actually has with the SoftSteps little lights=
 which
>> when sitting down are often=

>> obscured simply by the natural an=
gle one is sitting at! Ideally the whole<=
br>>> looping process could be automated =
;via some key strikes on a note on/off>> basis!?...
>>
>> There are l=
ots of "looping" artists out there: I wou=
ldnt describe myself as
>> one of tho=
se! however I simply need something that =
will allow me to loop
>> what I =
am doing
>>  from the 2 buss mix=
 at any given moment to allow me to&=
nbsp;improvise as long as
>> I wish a=
nd then return to that mix in perfect&nbs=
p;sync. One possible solution
>> could be&=
nbsp;to have
>> what I am playing sto=
p on entry of the just recorded loop =
;to then somehoe
>> re-release the keyboar=
ds again for real time playing immediately&nbs=
p;the loop is
>> stopped. Perhaps there&nb=
sp;is a note command or something in SOOP=
ER LOOPER that
>> I could hit
>>&=
nbsp; on one of my keyboards at any =
given time (say an assigned note within a=

>> chord) that would cease any Korg&=
nbsp;KRONOS KARMA/external midiclocked arps etc
>&=
gt; when that
>> same key note starts=
 to trigger the loop (after having record=
ed it of course
>> bars earlier) then=
 another note that could be within the&nb=
sp;first chord of the
>> returning live&nb=
sp;playing
>> that also stops the looper&n=
bsp;playing back!...?
>>
>> I imagine =
this isnt something that can be discussed =
;adequately via email: as
>> such would&nb=
sp;it be possible we could discuss this o=
ver Skype ?
>>
>> My rig:
>><=
br>>> Korg KRONOS 88 keyboard
>> 211=
2 MacBook Pro running Ableton Live/Logic Audio=

>> TC-Helicon VoiceLive2 vocal fx
>>&=
nbsp;SoftStep
>> 12 Step
>>
>> Ext=
ernal synths
>> Alesis Andromeda A6 analog=
 keyboard
>> Oberheim Matrix 1000 analog&n=
bsp;rack synth x2
>> Ensoniq ESQ-M x2 =
;analog rack synth
>> EMU Morpheus
>>&=
nbsp;Korg Wavestation SR
>> Korg EX-8000 a=
nalog rack synth
>> Waldorf Pulse+ analog&=
nbsp;rack mono synth
>> Waldorf  rack
&=
gt;> Yamaha FS1r
>> Lexicon MPX1 fx&nbs=
p;x2
>> Lexicon PCM80 fx
>>
>>&nbs=
p;Emagic Unitor 8 for MacBook and main ri=
g has another Unitor 8 running in
>>&=
nbsp;patch mode.
>>
>> You can get&nbs=
p;hear some of my music here some of =
;which I am working into my
>> live&n=
bsp;set.
>>
>> Thanks for your time>>
>> best
>>
>> Henry Fram=
pton
>> www.riversonicstudios.com
>>
>> =
;Hi Henry,
>>
>> Interesting setup you=
 have!
>>
>> To be perfectly hone=
st this is way beyond my comfort zone&nbs=
p;in terms of setup:
>> I've never tr=
ied to sync to midi clock and I cert=
ainly don't use multiple
>> keyboards and&=
nbsp;so on!!
>>
>> With the loop =
setup I use (Sooperlooper within Logic 9) =
;it would be easy
>> enough to setup&=
nbsp;the SoftStep to control record / stop&nbs=
p;/ mute and so on, but
>> I fra=
nkly have no idea about the routing you'r=
e asking about, and if you're
>> runn=
ing Ableton Live I haven't been able to&n=
bsp;get Sooperlooper to run
>> convincingly&nbs=
p;with it (though Jason has I think).
>&=
gt;
>> I'm pretty certain that SL wil=
l sync to midi clock if needed, but =
I've not
>> tried it.
>>
>> M=
y best suggestion would be to post the&nb=
sp;details of the setup to the Loopers
>=
> Delight forum, where there are basically&=
nbsp;several guys who are able to pretty
&g=
t;> well answer any looping question ever&n=
bsp;invented (two whom I've worked with -
&=
gt;> Andy Butler and Per Boysen - are&=
nbsp;an encyclopedia of looping between them,
&g=
t;> and seem to answer posts within ho=
urs!).
>>
>> give that a go as&nb=
sp;I'm sure it will turn up the best =
;suggestions=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6
>>
>> Cheers,
>&=
gt; Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On =
22 Jan 2013, at 10:08, Henry Frampton <=
;henryframptonmusic@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
&=
gt;> Hi Steve,
>>
>> Henry Frampton=
 here ! finally moved to Nimes!
>>>> Jason suggested I contact you about&=
nbsp;this! Really need to work out my rig=
 so
>> I can play the sax over&n=
bsp;my music in my shows.
>>
>> A=
m busy sorting out a way to allow me=
 to quantise punch in record a section>> of the complete live mix as I&n=
bsp;am playing it on the keyboards to the=
n punch
>> out of recording and then&=
nbsp;have that recorded loop playback instantaneous=
ly
>> so I can let go of the&nbs=
p;keys and play my sax over what I h=
ave just looped,
>> all on the fly!..=
. also I dont want to be doing this&=
nbsp;without the loop punch
>> in/outs bei=
ng quantised to MidiClock so I dont have&=
nbsp;to be precise with the
>> punches&nbs=
p;all be it punching in before the place&=
nbsp;I wish to!. Somehow I also
>> ne=
ed to have the main mix muted automatical=
ly while the loop is playing back
>>&=
nbsp;and then return when switching the loop&n=
bsp;off to continue through the rest of
>=
;> the song. Bare in mind I maybe =
;also trigering arpeggiators from external
>>&n=
bsp;synths as well as KARMA from the KRON=
OS and playing back complete drum
>> =
backing tracks from my MacBook in ABLETON =
;LIVE.
>>
>> Would be best to hav=
e a chat with you over skype or I&nb=
sp;can call you for free
>> on your&n=
bsp;landline from France.
>>
>> Sorry =
to spring this one on you but it sou=
nds like you might be just the
>>&nbs=
p;right man to consult on this issue acco=
rding to Jason!
>>
>> My rig:
>&=
gt;
>> Korg KRONOS 88 keyboard
>> =
;2112 MacBook Pro running Ableton Live
>>&=
nbsp;TC-Helicon VoiceLive2 vocal fx
>> SoftStep=

>> 12 Step
>>
>> External sy=
nths
>> Alesis Andromeda A6 analog keyboar=
d
>> Oberheim Matrix 1000 analog rack =
;synth x2
>> Ensoniq ESQ-M x2 analog =
rack synth
>> EMU Morpheus
>> Korg&nbs=
p;Wavestation SR
>> Korg EX-8000 analog ra=
ck synth
>> Waldorf Pulse+ analog rack&nbs=
p;mono synth
>> Waldorf  rack
>> =
Yamaha FS1r
>> Lexicon MPX1 fx x2
>&=
gt; Lexicon PCM80
>>
>> Emagic Unitor&=
nbsp;8 for MacBook and main rig has anoth=
er Unitor 8 running in
>> patch mode.=

>>
>> Hope to speak soon
>><=
br>>> thanks!
>>
>> best
>>
&g=
t;> Henry Frampton
>>
>>
>>>----&=
nbsp;Original Message ----
>>>From: Per Boys=
en <perboysen@gmail.com>
>>>To: Loopers-Delight@=
loopers-delight.com
>>>Sent: Sat, Feb 9, 201=
3, 7:04 PM
>>>Subject: Re: scoring and&=
nbsp;notation software
>>>
>>>On Sat, =
;Feb 9, 2013 at 7:56 PM, RP Collier =
<skeptikalist@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I d=
o have Logic and Ableton 9
>>>
>&=
gt;>
>>>When I saw your post I =
checked Ableton's web site but Ableton 9 =
is
>>>still not yet released, so I =
;guess you mean Live 8? I was talking
=
>>>about coming features of Live 9.
>=
;>>
>>>Greetings from Sweden
>>>
=
>>>Per Boysen
>>>www.perboysen.com
>>>=
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 13 19:10:39 2013
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To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: Using the standard EDP pedal with 2 EDPs
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hi Mark,

when you control an EDP with the footpedal it outputs 
the midi commands via midi.

So a second slave EDP linked by midi will respond as long as
EDP1 Output (not Thru) is linked to EDP 2 Input.

It doesn't happen via brothersync.

This depends on the ControlSource param.
i.e. both EDPs have
ControlSource=not
OR
both have
ControlSource=ctr




An AB switch is good to use one pedal for either
EDP.
...but it *won't* work both at once if you wire them in parallel


Assuming you're syncing to incoming midi clock you could use the Thru
of EDP1 to connect to EDP2 and an AB switch to route the pedal to either 
EDP. (and bro-sync) 
Which would suit what I imagine to be your usual mode of operation.

 

andy






mark francombe wrote:
> Im off to Italy for a gig on Saturday in a place called Trento. Due to 
> baggage restrictions Ive decided to NOT take my FCB1010 and rely instead 
> on A) pressing buttons on the front panel, and B) triggering commands 
> using iPad >missing link. I rehearsed this yesterday and it went OK. As 
> I am synching to midi clock from my colleagues Ableton Live, 
> I don't have to be too accurate with the record button, but found that 
> some things just dont work with tapping the iPad.
> 
> QUESTION 1
> Now its been a while since using the Standard EDP pedal, but was 
> wondering (after checking the manual) If I plug in ONE pedal into one 
> EDP, does it trigger both when linked via brother synch and midi ) and 
> set to synch out?
> 
> The diagram for stereo operation shows ONE pedal plugged into one EDP, 
> but presumably with trigger both. This may be OK for some situations, 
> stereo for example, but what happens if I have already started both EDPs 
> seperatly and are running, synched, but different lengths?
> 
> I cant test cos I need to go to my old house to pick it up, I will now 
> only have the sound check to test it with.
> 
> QUESTION 2
> Further to this, would it be possible to somehow split the pedal cable 
> via foot-switches to use one pedal for one EDP the other pedal, and BOTH!
> 
> Yours, space saving...
> 
> Mark
> 
> -- 
> /_Mark Francombe_/
> www.markfrancombe.com 
> www.ordoabkhao.com 
> http://vimeo.com/user825094
> http://www.looop.no 
> twitter @markfrancombe
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

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On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:10 PM, andy butler  wrote:

> hi Mark,
>
> hi Andy... and thanks!


> So a second slave EDP linked by midi will respond as long as
> EDP1 Output (not Thru) is linked to EDP 2 Input.
>

Aha.. nice---

>
> It doesn't happen via brothersync.
>

OK---

>
> This depends on the ControlSource param.
> i.e. both EDPs have
> ControlSource=not
> OR
> both have
> ControlSource=ctr
>

Damn!! I thought that parameter stood for ControlChange messages and Note
messages, that you could use both via midi!!

you mean... It depends on whether the control signal is passed on to the
second unit?
So if I rigged it like this I could start both machines (ControlSource=ctr)
together, and loop in stereo (PseudoStereo... if only I had a stereo send!)
and then change the parameter on the front panel of second machine,
 (ControlSource=not)  and then the pedal would now only affect the first
EDP?

Nifty...


> Assuming you're syncing to incoming midi clock you could use the Thru
> of EDP1 to connect to EDP2 and an AB switch to route the pedal to either
> EDP. (and bro-sync) Which would suit what I imagine to be your usual mode
> of operation.
>
> Well usually yes... but I like the idea that I have a pedal
that operates both simultaneously, Im imagining recording 2 things
seperately (using front panel, or iPad) with 2 different lengths, then
doing Quantised Sub into that, with the pedal, will record that chunk to
both, but presumably will go out of synch by an 8th every time... nice...
If Im not mistaken?

I am assured there will be a long soundcheck... thank the lord for that! If
there is one...

:)


*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

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On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:10 PM, andy butler <akbutl=
er@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:



hi Mark,

hi Andy... and tha=
nks!



=A0

So a second slave EDP linked by midi will respond as long as

EDP1 Output (not Thru) is linked to EDP 2 Input.

<=
/div>
Aha.. nice---=A0





It doesn't happen via brothersync.

OK---=A0





This depends on the ControlSource param.

i.e. both EDPs have

ControlSource=3Dnot

OR

both have

ControlSource=3Dctr

Damn!! I thou=
ght that parameter stood for ControlChange messages and Note messages, that=
 you could use both via midi!!=A0

you mean..=
. It depends on whether the control signal is passed on to the second unit?=




So if I rigged it like this I could start both machines (Control=
Source=3Dctr) together, and loop in stereo (PseudoStereo... if only I had a=
 stereo send!) and then change the=A0parameter=A0on the front panel of seco=
nd machine, =A0(ControlSource=3Dnot)=A0=A0and then the pedal would now only=
 affect the first EDP?




Nifty...





Assuming you're syncing to incoming midi clock you could use the Thru
of EDP1 to connect to EDP2 and an AB switch to route the pedal to either ED=
P. (and bro-sync) Which would suit what I imagine to be your usual mode of =
operation.

Well usually yes... but I like th=
e idea that I have a pedal that=A0operates=A0both=A0simultaneously, Im imag=
ining recording 2 things seperately (using front=A0panel, or iPad) with 2 d=
ifferent lengths, then doing Quantised Sub into that, with the pedal, will =
record that chunk to both, but presumably will go out of synch by an 8th ev=
ery time... nice... If Im not mistaken?




I am assured there will be a long soundchec=
k... thank the lord for that! If there is one...

=

:)

=A0=A0
=
Mark Francombe


www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com


http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no


twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
<=
/font>



--f46d042de92d579a0604d5a0f4ad--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 13 20:41:44 2013
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Subject: EDP sending midi clock on question.. What speed?
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I have another question... why do I think about these things when I dont
have the machine nearby.. (Ive been rehearsing in my office downtown, no
complaints from wives or children, only hookers and drug dealers can hear
me... and they are considering other occupations now...)

My upcoming concert is with a laptop guy and we=B4ve only had a
few rehearsals, largely spent tweaking sounds and choosing drum loops...
Anyhow, I discovered that he runs Abelton Live REALLY slowly... so what I
would call 120bpm, he has set to 60.. Idiot!

The upshot of this is that when I hit REC REC on EDP to record a loop, the
quantise period before it closes the loop, is really long.. like 2 bars...
totally the opposite of how I usually play (1 loop per 1/4note is often).

Now I dont mind if ONE EDP is like that, kinda the master... but... is
there a way that the second one can be running 8 times faster say?
Setting the 8th note setting surely affects downstream midi items (I use
this all the time to change the speed of sequencers that are running too
fast or too slow.. But If I have EDP1 midi out into EDP2 midi in... is the
EDP 2 tempo affected in the same way? Like If EDP was set to 8th note 16?

I should know this, its just a different set-up to how I am used, and I
need to re-think how I shall loop...

quite refreshin actually...
Like a glass of loop milk!

M



--=20
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--f46d042f9e007c463004d5a12b53
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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I have another question... why do I think about these thin=
gs when I dont have the machine nearby.. (Ive been rehearsing in my office =
downtown, no complaints from wives or children, only hookers and drug deale=
rs can hear me... and they are considering other occupations now...)



My upcoming concert is with a laptop guy and we=B4ve only had a few=A0r=
ehearsals, largely spent tweaking sounds and choosing drum loops...
Anyhow, I=A0discovered=A0that he runs Abelton Live REALLY slowly... so w=
hat I would call 120bpm, he has set to 60.. Idiot!



The upshot of this is that when I hit REC REC on EDP to record a loop, =
the quantise period before it closes the loop, is really long.. like 2 bars=
... totally the opposite of how I usually play (1 loop per 1/4note is often=
).




Now I dont mind if ONE EDP is like that, ki=
nda the master... but... is there a way that the second one can be running =
8 times faster say?
Setting the 8th note setting surely affects downstre=
am midi items (I use this all the time to change the speed of sequencers th=
at are running too fast or too slow.. But If I have EDP1 midi out into EDP2=
 midi in... is the EDP 2 tempo affected in the same way? Like If EDP was se=
t to 8th note 16?




I should know this, its just a different se=
t-up to how I am used, and I need to re-think how I shall loop...

quite refreshin actually...


Like a glass of loop milk!

M




--f46d042f9e007c463004d5a12b53--

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Hi Mark

great gig! Really love the sound you guys built.
Thanks
Buzap


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From: Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill 
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--------------030108090207060302070203
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Henry,

as Per already said, that's some serious gear alert here!
In fact, there's some things I use, too (Waldorf Q, Yamaha FS1R, Korg 
Wavestation, Matrix-1000, Kawai K5000R).

I can't say that I completely understand everything you're trying to do 
here...you are playing a part on one synth (or on several ones, but no 
sequencer running), and then want a loop of what you just played to 
continue while you play the sax, and then switch back to your synth 
playing seamlessly...is that it?

The way I get it, you wouldn't need any specific looping things - 
Ableton Live in its basic functionality should be good:
have all the synths routed through live, either from your mixer's out, 
or via individual ins/tracks, and then those tracks routed to another 
track, which then is your "looping" track. Now set the monitor setting 
for that track to "auto", arm record on that track.

When you play your synths, you should be able to hear them just nice. 
Now while playing, record a clip in Live on that very track. End the 
recording, and voila, via the monitor "auto" setting, you will no longer 
hear the synths, but the tracks you just recorded. If you then stop the 
track, you will again hear your synths. Makes sense?

     Rainer


Am 13.02.2013 18:15, schrieb info@riversonicstudios.com:
> Hi Per,
>
> Thanks so much for getting back to me!
>
> The KRONOS is my midiclock master at the moment as it drives the Waldorf Q, 
> Pulse+ and the Andromedas midi clocks 
> for syncing LFOs and sequencers/arps 
> etc. However I will certainly read through your email to digest your info in greater 
> reference 
> tonight and ping you back real soon hopefully with some progress!
>
> Yes! Logic is crap with midiclock! and in fact I have dropped it 
> only recently using Ableton instead 
> if only for live performance use! I will look at Ableton, Mobius and SooperLooper for a solution! 
> I only tend to use Ableton for triggering long drum backing tracks or 
> (at the moment pending a looping solution!) full instrumental middle 8 
> soloing sections that I trigger from one shot keyboard triggers when I 
> want to solo on the sax.
>
> I have managed to sort half my live set out and failing finding a solution immediately to the looping I can always play less intricate versions of some of my material for the 
> giggs I have imminently !
>
> However it is something I must 
> overcome. The main thing is that for a keyboard player I need to be able to record the loop without having to think about it 
>
> in terms of timing on stage, thats why the punch in/out and immediate playback has to be quantised to midi clock. I find the SoftStep has great functionallity but lacks the physical feel of something 
>
>  like the Behringer unit for example (F1010 is it?). I have 2 sustain, one switch and 2 EV5 volume pedals at my feet already and whenever 
>
> I have to hit a pad on the SoftStep to kick out say an arpeggiator 
> coming from the Waldorf Q, in the heat of a performance 
> I have to look down to watch my footwork : unfortunately the SoftStep 
> wasnt designed for keyboard players! Your instruction re the quantise by bar 
> in Ableton for
> recording the loop makes easy sense. I think it will be the muting or the halting/resuming of the original sounds that may prove a little tricky to accomplish! 
> I have had digital desks in the past and they all sound rubbish 
> compared to analog. There are a few older analog racks that have midi 
> muting on them- that may be a solution. However I think the best plan 
> is to look at halting the background sound rather that trying to mute 
> it while the loop is being played.
>
> I have actually only just moved with all my studio kit to Nimes and as my studio business is somewhat in the air at the moment (hoping to resurrect 
> RIVERSONIC STUDIOS  somewhere in the 
> South Of France) I decided to go out on the road for the next year or 
> so with my music. I have a big filmatic sound live: trouble is to get 
> that sound one has to port a fair amount of hardware and then find a 
> way to keep its sonic potential under a leash with only one pair of 
> hands and feet!
>
> Thanks again for your response, forgive me if mine has been slow but I 
> am still settling in here and have yet to sort my home internet 
> connection etc!


--------------030108090207060302070203
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Henry,

      

      as Per already said, that's some serious gear alert here!

      In fact, there's some things I use, too (Waldorf Q, Yamaha FS1R,
      Korg Wavestation, Matrix-1000, Kawai K5000R).

      

      I can't say that I completely understand everything you're trying
      to do here...you are playing a part on one synth (or on several
      ones, but no sequencer running), and then want a loop of what you
      just played to continue while you play the sax, and then switch
      back to your synth playing seamlessly...is that it?

      

      The way I get it, you wouldn't need any specific looping things -
      Ableton Live in its basic functionality should be good:

      have all the synths routed through live, either from your mixer's
      out, or via individual ins/tracks, and then those tracks routed to
      another track, which then is your "looping" track. Now set the
      monitor setting for that track to "auto", arm record on that
      track.

      

      When you play your synths, you should be able to hear them just
      nice. Now while playing, record a clip in Live on that very track.
      End the recording, and voila, via the monitor "auto" setting, you
      will no longer hear the synths, but the tracks you just recorded.
      If you then stop the track, you will again hear your synths. Makes
      sense?

      

          Rainer

      

      

      Am 13.02.2013 18:15, schrieb info@riversonicstudios.com:

    

    
Hi Per,

      

      Thanks so much for getting back to me!

      

      The KRONOS is my midiclock master at the moment as it drives the Waldorf Q,
      Pulse+ and the Andromedas midi clocks
      for syncing LFOs and sequencers/arps
      etc. However I will certainly read through your email to digest your info in greater
      reference
      tonight and ping you back real soon hopefully with some progress!

      

      Yes! Logic is crap with midiclock! and in fact I have dropped it
      only recently using Ableton instead
      if only for live performance use! I will look at Ableton, Mobius and SooperLooper for a solution!
      I only tend to use Ableton for triggering long drum backing tracks
      or (at the moment pending a looping solution!) full instrumental
      middle 8 soloing sections that I trigger from one shot keyboard
      triggers when I want to solo on the sax.

      

      I have managed to sort half my live set out and failing finding a solution immediately to the looping I can always play less intricate versions of some of my material for the
      giggs I have imminently !

      

      However it is something I must
overcome. The main thing is that for a keyboard player I need to be able to record the loop without having to think about it 

in terms of timing on stage, thats why the punch in/out and immediate playback has to be quantised to midi clock. I find the SoftStep has great functionallity but lacks the physical feel of something
      
 like the Behringer unit for example (F1010 is it?). I have 2 sustain, one switch and 2 EV5 volume pedals at my feet already and whenever 

      
I have to hit a pad on the SoftStep to kick out say an
        arpeggiator coming from the Waldorf Q, in the heat of a
        performance I have to look down to watch my footwork
        : unfortunately the SoftStep
        wasnt designed for keyboard players! Your instruction re the quantise by bar
        in Ableton for 

      
recording the loop makes easy sense. I think it will be the muting or the halting/resuming of the original sounds that may prove a little tricky to accomplish!
        I have had digital desks in the past and they all sound rubbish
        compared to analog. There are a few older analog racks that have
        midi muting on them- that may be a solution. However I think the
        best plan is to look at halting the background sound rather that
        trying to mute it while the loop is being played. 

        

I have actually only just moved with all my studio kit to Nimes and as my studio business is somewhat in the air at the moment (hoping to resurrect RIVERSONIC STUDIOS somewhere
        in the South Of France) I decided to go out on the road for the
        next year or so with my music. I have a big filmatic sound live:
        trouble is to get that sound one has to port a fair amount of
        hardware and then find a way to keep its sonic potential under a
        leash with only one pair of hands and feet!
        


        

        
Thanks again for your response, forgive me if mine has been
          slow but I am still settling in here and have yet to sort my
          home internet connection etc!

      

    

    

  


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Subject: OT? EP! Looping, and a Lathe cut, if desired.
From: Todd Elliott 
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--001636ef033f47733e04d5a89077
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I've released a new record, "Sariel", which contains an early version of
the song I played at loopfest, played live in the same manner (using live
loops via audiomulch), and a couple of newer tunes. In addition, I am
offering a lathe cut 10" for sale; you can check it out here:
http://toaster.bandcamp.com/album/sariel-ep.

It's free/ pay what you want, and the 10" is available to buy, if so
desired.

Thanks!

T


-- 
http://toaster.bandcamp.com

--001636ef033f47733e04d5a89077
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I've released a new record, "Sariel", which contains an early=
 version of the song I played at loopfest, played live in the same manner (=
using live loops via audiomulch), and a couple of newer tunes. In addition,=
 I am offering a lathe cut 10" for sale; you can check it out here: http://toaster.bandca=
mp.com/album/sariel-ep.


It's free/ pay what you want, and the 10" is availa=
ble to buy, if so desired.



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Subject: Listen to Galactic Travels
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GALACTIC TRAVELS ON WDIY:                   http://galactictravels.info
=======================================================================
Tonight at 11 pm EST/GMT-5 on Galactic Travels, I'll continue the
month-long Special Focus on Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured
CD at Midnight will be "In Session (AM Mix)" on Bogus Focus Records.
The Special Focus page is at:
http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show that
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and
Bethlehem, 93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville
and Trexlertown, on the internet, and in High Definition Radio at 88.1
FM.  Listen at http://wdiy.org on the internet.

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mark francombe wrote:

> 
>     This depends on the ControlSource param.

> Damn!! I thought that parameter stood for ControlChange messages and 
> Note messages, that you could use both via midi!! 

Well yes, you're right,
it affects the response to incoming midi (Note or Ctr)
and also the midi which is output when the 
button is triggered
(either by midi, or front panel or footswitch



> 
> you mean... It depends on whether the control signal is passed on to the 
> second unit?

so they can only talk to each other if EDP generates the midi type
that EDP2 is listening for.



> 
> Well usually yes... but I like the idea that I have a pedal 
> that operates both simultaneously, Im imagining recording 2 things 
> seperately (using front panel, or iPad) with 2 different lengths, then 
> doing Quantised Sub into that, with the pedal, will record that chunk to 
> both, but presumably will go out of synch by an 8th every time... 
> nice... If Im not mistaken?

iirc the response of EDP2 can be a bit unpredictable in this context.

May not do the 8th Quant thing properly.

I didn't track down exactly why yet.....however once it starts working
it's possible to have a polyrhythmic sync and do 8th rep on it.




What I like to do is to have Quant = Cycle, Insert=SUS
Record a short one beat loop with the EDPs in stereo setup.

Then each "insert" adds a beat.
..and hitting Insert on the edp2 front panel just once  makes things interesting.




> 
> I am assured there will be a long soundcheck... thank the lord for that! 
> If there is one...

good luck

andy

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mark francombe wrote:

> Now I dont mind if ONE EDP is like that, kinda the master... but... is 
> there a way that the second one can be running 8 times faster say?

Can't think of an ideal solution, 

1) change the 8thQuant value *after* recording the loop on EDP2
   Then 8thQuantSUSMult can cut the loop down to size and it 
   may still sync( might have to lower 8thQuant again) 
    ....hmm, not sure that works

2) Sometimes the EDP can sync if the loop time is tapped in manually
    and is accurate enough. 

Hmm...just thinking out loud really, don't know if they'll work ,
 and I don't fancy 2) in a gig context.
The EDP when it's syncing will check every loop for a close
match to incoming sync, even if looptimes are actually unrelated.



How about BeatSync?

Feed audio into the BeatSync socket, and watch the front panel
to see the edp triggering on the beats as you adjust the volume you send to it.

andy

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From: info@riversonicstudios.com
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Subject: Re: Re: Live looping to Midi Clock solution sought!
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Hi Rainer,

Thanks very much for your post!

I have a K5000r too !... just cant take on any more c=
lobber on the road!
By the way have you ever had the screen on you=
r 5000r disappear to then have to switch the unit on and off to have it reap=
pear?!

Back to the case in point!...
To g=
ive you a clearer idea of what I am trying to achieve if I can kindly ask yo=
u to have a listen to =
"Goodbye To Sorrow"(track 15) on my shitty myspace site (soon to be=
 replaced!) imagine I am playing this song live on stage and where the sax c=
omes in (before it does on this recording of course) I wish to loop those ba=
rs in perfect timing and then have them repeat for the solo as long as I nee=
d to then return to the keys to finish the song: thats what I am trying to d=
o! This may not be the best example re this particular song as the sax solo =
comes in traight away, but the principle is the same: I just want to be able=
 to loop a few bars in perfect timing at any given time to then return to pl=
aying as seamlessly as possible. Obviously I would have to split the song up=
 into different sections re the drum track. I do this in 2 different ways on=
 the KRONOS depending on how many patch changes are needed to change texture=
s throughout the song. I either have the whole drum track prerecorded as an =
audio file residing in Live triggered off at the beginning of the song by th=
e first key struck or if it suits the songs arrangement and I dont need carr=
ying drum fills from verses to chouses for example I often use a clocked del=
ay over the drums so that it ties the different sections together when I pat=
ch change. The KRONOS has a neat trick that allows spill of all its effects =
and any samples playing to tail off on patch change. Unfortunately this feat=
ure does not apply to any drum sequences being played live or any of the KAR=
MA arpeggiators: they both stop immediately the patch change kicks in as do =
any external synths of course but this is another problem is I have dru=
m patterns and rhythmic things happening on the Korg Kronos and if I am goin=
g to loop a few bars to play to the punch in/out points need to be quan=
tised to the Kronos midiclock. This afternoon I tried using Lives looper plu=
g in but found that it would only follow the actual bars on Lives transport =
bar reading.
Hence when I trigger the Looper to record say in a ba=
rs time that bar follows the actual bar number displayed on the transport no=
t a "bars length" according t the midi clock that Live is being slaved too. =
Live slaves to the Kronos clock OK(if hovering a little around the actual te=
mpo being sent) - the problem is that I want the loop to capture strictly th=
e 4 bars so that it picks out the drums cleanly of course. The other thing i=
s that I am not running the KRONOS in sequencer mode but in combie. Midi Clo=
ck signal is still sent out and is actually continually running from the Kro=
nos. You can see this in Live in the left hand corner where the EXT input fl=
ashes to indicate the tempo being received. I think tonight I will try it th=
e other way round slaving KRONOS to Lives midi clock but really this may not=
 work as after all its my hands that start everything off on the KRONOS re d=
rum pattern triggering & KARMA arpeggiation etc.

 
 
---- Original Message ----=

From: Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill <moinsound@googlem=
ail.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Sent=
: Wed, Feb 13, 2013, 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: Live looping to Midi Cl=
ock solution sought!


  
    
  
  
    
Henry,

      

      as Per already said, that's some serious gear alert here!

      In fact, there's some things I use, too (Waldorf Q, Yamaha FS1R,
      Korg Wavestation, Matrix-1000, Kawai K5000R).

      

      I can't say that I completely understand everything you're trying
      to do here...you are playing a part on one synth (or on several
      ones, but no sequencer running), and then want a loop of what you
      just played to continue while you play the sax, and then switch
      back to your synth playing seamlessly...is that it?

      

      The way I get it, you wouldn't need any specific looping things -
      Ableton Live in its basic functionality should be good:

      have all the synths routed through live, either from your mixer's
      out, or via individual ins/tracks, and then those tracks routed to
      another track, which then is your "looping" track. Now set the
      monitor setting for that track to "auto", arm record on that
      track.

      

      When you play your synths, you should be able to hear them just
      nice. Now while playing, record a clip in Live on that very track.
      End the recording, and voila, via the monitor "auto" setting, you
      will no longer hear the synths, but the tracks you just recorded.
      If you then stop the track, you will again hear your synths. Makes
      sense?

      

          Rainer

      

      

      Am 13.02.2013 18:15, schrieb info@riversonicstu=
dios.com:

    

    
Hi Per,

      

      Thanks so much for getting back to =
me!

      

      The KRONOS is my midiclock master at&nbs=
p;the moment as it drives the Waldorf Q,
      Pulse+ and the Andromedas midi clocks
      for syncing LFOs and sequencers/arps
      etc. However I will certainly read throu=
gh your email to digest your info in =
;greater
      reference
      tonight and ping you back real soon =
;hopefully with some progress!

      

      Yes! Logic is crap with midiclock! and i=
n fact I have dropped it
      only recently using Ableton instead
      if only for live performance use! I =
;will look at Ableton, Mobius and SooperLooper=
 for a solution!
      I only tend to use Ableton for triggering long drum backing tracks
      or (at the moment pending a looping solution!) full instrumental
      middle 8 soloing sections that I trigger from one shot keyboard
      triggers when I want to solo on the sax.

      

      I have managed to sort half my live=
 set out and failing finding a solution&n=
bsp;immediately to the looping I can always&nb=
sp;play less intricate versions of some of&nbs=
p;my material for the
      giggs I have imminently !

      

      However it is something I must
overcome. The main thing is that for a&nb=
sp;keyboard player I need to be able to&n=
bsp;record the loop without having to think&nb=
sp;about it 

in terms of timing on stage, thats why&nb=
sp;the punch in/out and immediate playback has=
 to be quantised to midi clock. I fi=
nd the SoftStep has great functionallity but&n=
bsp;lacks the physical feel of something
      
 like the Behringer unit for exampl=
e (F1010 is it?). I have 2 sustain, =
one switch and 2 EV5 volume pedals at&nbs=
p;my feet already and whenever 

      
I have to hit a pad on the&nbs=
p;SoftStep to kick out say an
        arpeggiator coming from the Waldorf Q, in the heat of a
        performance I have to look down to watch my=
 footwork
        : unfortunately the SoftStep
        wasnt designed for keyboard players! Your&n=
bsp;instruction re the quantise by bar
        in Ableton for 

      
recording the loop makes easy sense.&nbs=
p;I think it will be the muting or t=
he halting/resuming of the original sounds tha=
t may prove a little tricky to accomplish=
!
        I have had digital desks in the past and they all sound rubbish
        compared to analog. There are a few older analog racks that have
        midi muting on them- that may be a solution. However I think the
        best plan is to look at halting the background sound rather that
        trying to mute it while the loop is being played. 

        

I have actually only just moved with all&=
nbsp;my studio kit to Nimes and as my&nbs=
p;studio business is somewhat in the air =
at the moment (hoping to resurrect =
RIVERSONIC STUDIOS somewhere
        in the South Of France) I decided to go out on the road for the
        next year or so with my music. I have a big filmatic sound live:
        trouble is to get that sound one has to port a fair amount of
        hardware and then find a way to keep its sonic potential under a
        leash with only one pair of hands and feet!
        


        

        
Thanks again for your response, forgive me if mine has been
          slow but I am still settling in here and have yet to sort my
          home internet connection etc!

      

    

    

  



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--047d7b339c1f3dd3b104d5b75ec8
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On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:39 PM, andy butler wrote:

8thQuantSUSMult
>

WHaaat the hell is THAT?? Anyway I dont really...


>  don't fancy 2) in a gig context.
>

...you took the words right outa my mouth...

Doesnt really matter... Im hired to do an experimental gig.. HA!!

Oh and I bought a Freeze... so Im all set!

Anyway, anyone in the Trento area on Saturday night...?
Heres tha Bumph...

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=128179774024596&set=a.116562168519690.21119.100004977217629&type=1&relevant_count=1

Cheers Andy




-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--047d7b339c1f3dd3b104d5b75ec8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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=
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:39 PM, andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk=
> wrote:





8thQu=
antSUSMult




=A0
WHaaat the hell is THAT?? Anyway I dont rea=
lly...
=A0




=A0don't fancy 2) in a gig context.

...you took the words right outa my mouth...=A0

Does=
nt really matter... Im hired to do an experimental gig.. HA!!=A0



Oh and I bought a Freeze... so I=
m all set!



Anyway, any=
one in the Trento area on Saturday night...?
Heres tha Bumph...




http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3D1281797740=
24596&set=3Da.116562168519690.21119.100004977217629&type=3D1&re=
levant_count=3D1




Cheers Andy


=


-- 
Mark Francombe



www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com



http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no



twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
<=
/font>



--047d7b339c1f3dd3b104d5b75ec8--

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Has anyone heard the tip that one should loosen your guitar strings on your
guitar before putting it in the hold of a plane? Due to.. er temperature or
pressure?

Fact of fiction?

Mark

-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--60eb69fdf42db7b9d204d5bf21d7
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Has anyone heard the tip that one should loosen your guita=
r strings on your guitar before putting it in the hold of a plane? Due to..=
 er=A0temperature=A0or pressure?

Fact of fiction?

Mark=A0




-- 
Mark Francombe
www.markfrancombe.com


www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094


http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.c=
om/photos/24478662@N00/






--60eb69fdf42db7b9d204d5bf21d7--

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Yep, I've heard it and I follow the advice, not only for temperature and =
pressure change, but also for any shocks it might receive - lower =
tension means the instrument is not so loaded if it gets banged around =
and so is possibly better able to withstand a shock.

Fact or fiction? I don't know, but ... being superstitious, I refuse to =
finish this sentence.

Doc

On Feb 15, 2013, at 9:26 AM, mark francombe wrote:

> Has anyone heard the tip that one should loosen your guitar strings on =
your guitar before putting it in the hold of a plane? Due to.. er =
temperature or pressure?
>=20
> Fact of fiction?
>=20
> Mark=20
>=20
> --=20
> Mark Francombe
> www.markfrancombe.com
> www.ordoabkhao.com
> http://vimeo.com/user825094
> http://www.looop.no
> twitter @markfrancombe
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/


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Yep, I've heard it and I follow the advice, not only for temperature and pressure change, but also for any shocks it might receive - lower tension means the instrument is not so loaded if it gets banged around and so is possibly better able to withstand a shock.

Fact or fiction? I don't know, but ... being superstitious, I refuse to finish this sentence.

Doc

On Feb 15, 2013, at 9:26 AM, mark francombe wrote:

Has anyone heard the tip that one should loosen your guitar strings on your guitar before putting it in the hold of a plane? Due to.. er temperature or pressure?

Fact of fiction?





--Apple-Mail-11-360440301--

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On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:26 AM, mark francombe  wrote:
> loosen your guitar strings on your guitar before putting it in the hold of a
> plane?


This is essential to prevent mechanic shock damage in case of hit
impact. Basses and guitars may have a very high tension balancing
string pressure and neck adjustment pressure. The wood is firm and
doesn't take damage by a hit, if stuffed up well inside a good case,
but the strings are loose and therefore take up the energy of a
violent impact.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Good, I just delivered the guitar (with loose strings) to someone that will
take it to Italy for me... I just hop I get it back some hours before, I
like it to sit in tune for a bit, shes a bit temperamental.


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:26 AM, mark francombe 
> wrote:
> > loosen your guitar strings on your guitar before putting it in the hold
> of a
> > plane?
>
>
> This is essential to prevent mechanic shock damage in case of hit
> impact. Basses and guitars may have a very high tension balancing
> string pressure and neck adjustment pressure. The wood is firm and
> doesn't take damage by a hit, if stuffed up well inside a good case,
> but the strings are loose and therefore take up the energy of a
> violent impact.
>
> Greetings from Sweden
>
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
>


-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--20cf307ca1e4876d9004d5c09281
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Good, I just delivered the guitar (with loose strings) to =
someone that will take it to Italy for me... I just hop I get it back some =
hours before, I like it to sit in tune for a bit, shes a bit=A0temperamenta=
l.=A0





On Fri, Feb 1=
5, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrot=
e:



On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:=
26 AM, mark francombe <mark@ma=
rkfrancombe.com> wrote:



> loosen your guitar strings on your guitar before putting it in the hol=
d of a

> plane?






This is essential to prevent mechanic shock damage in case of hit

impact. Basses and guitars may have a very high tension balancing

string pressure and neck adjustment pressure. The wood is firm and

doesn't take damage by a hit, if stuffed up well inside a good case,
but the strings are loose and therefore take up the energy of a

violent impact.



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen







-- Mark Francombe


www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com


http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no


twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
<=
/font>



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Per Boysen wrote:
 
> This is essential to prevent mechanic shock damage in case of hit
> impact. Basses and guitars may have a very high tension balancing
> string pressure and neck adjustment pressure. The wood is firm and
> doesn't take damage by a hit, if stuffed up well inside a good case,
> but the strings are loose and therefore take up the energy of a
> violent impact.

I can't see it making a lot of difference with a solid  electric
instrument.
Except that the truss rod might cause the neck to resettle while
the strings are loose ( not so good)

Surely that advice is intended for acoustic instruments where
delicate soundboxes are tensioned by the strings?

Or is there evidence?

At least there's less chance of the security check guy playing
Stairway to Heaven on it.

andy

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb 15 16:23:02 2013
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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 10:52:24 -0500
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
From: Charles Zwicky 
Subject: Re: Loosening strings on a flight? Or not?
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I don't loosen the strings on electric instruments, but I always put 
a protective  layer of cloth between the strings and the frets.  I've 
got at least one guitar which has nicks in the frets due to front 
side impact.
-- 

...
http://www.zmix.net

http://albumcredits.com/zmix

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Fri Feb 15 17:41:47 2013
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  Loosing strings is good particularly on acoustic instruments and  
more vulnerable set neck guitars. Bolt on neck instruments with maple  
necks are pretty had to mess up un-less they have a tilt back neck and  
luthier joint like many modern shred machines do. be sure to also put  
some extra support under the neck with clothes  If possible I would  
ask to walk it to the plane, like woman with strollers or people with  
wheel chairs do, most airlines will let you do this even if the plane  
does not have adequate overhead space. Just like they do with  
strollers they will put them in the hold last and the instrument will  
be there with the strollers just as you exit the plane. What this does  
is eliminate the conveyer belt  travel and reduce the likelihood that  
someone will toss it around like a mountain gorilla giving pay back to  
a poacher. another idea I did with my Tele, I put machine screw  
inserts in the neck so its easy to take the instrument apart and stash  
it in the suitcase, and the machine screws prevent the kind of  
stripping that the stock wood screws will do.
Bill

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Subject: Re: Loosening strings on a flight? Or not?
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ALWAYS LOOSEN STRINGS BEFORE FLYING.


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 12:41 PM, William Walker wrote:

>  Loosing strings is good particularly on acoustic instruments and more
> vulnerable set neck guitars. Bolt on neck instruments with maple necks are
> pretty had to mess up un-less they have a tilt back neck and luthier joint
> like many modern shred machines do. be sure to also put some extra support
> under the neck with clothes  If possible I would ask to walk it to the
> plane, like woman with strollers or people with wheel chairs do, most
> airlines will let you do this even if the plane does not have adequate
> overhead space. Just like they do with strollers they will put them in the
> hold last and the instrument will be there with the strollers just as you
> exit the plane. What this does is eliminate the conveyer belt  travel and
> reduce the likelihood that someone will toss it around like a mountain
> gorilla giving pay back to a poacher. another idea I did with my Tele, I
> put machine screw inserts in the neck so its easy to take the instrument
> apart and stash it in the suitcase, and the machine screws prevent the kind
> of stripping that the stock wood screws will do.
> Bill
>
>

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ALWAYS LOOSEN STRINGS BEFORE FLYING. 


On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at=
 12:41 PM, William Walker <billwalker@baymoon.com> wrot=
e:


=A0Loosing strings is good particularly on a=
coustic instruments and more vulnerable set neck guitars. Bolt on neck inst=
ruments with maple necks are pretty had to mess up un-less they have a tilt=
 back neck and luthier joint like many modern shred machines do. be sure to=
 also put some extra support under the neck with clothes =A0If possible I w=
ould ask to walk it to the plane, like woman with strollers or people with =
wheel chairs do, most airlines will let you do this even if the plane does =
not have adequate overhead space. Just like they do with strollers they wil=
l put them in the hold last and the instrument will be there with the strol=
lers just as you exit the plane. What this does is eliminate the conveyer b=
elt =A0travel and reduce the likelihood that someone will toss it around li=
ke a mountain gorilla giving pay back to a poacher. another idea I did with=
 my Tele, I put machine screw inserts in the neck so its easy to take the i=
nstrument apart and stash it in the suitcase, and the machine screws preven=
t the kind of stripping that the stock wood screws will do.


Bill







--bcaec520ef937d883b04d5c7349b--

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Subject: Galactic Travels Playlist #828 for February 14, 2013.
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http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/130214.html

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show, that
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem,
PA, 93.9 FM in Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville
and Trexlertown, and webcasting on the internet.  WDIY also broadcasts
in Digital HD at 88.1 FM.

Show #828 February 14, 2013.

WDIY Playlist:
http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels?playlist_date=02-14-2013

RECAP:
On this show, I continued the month-long focus on Joint Intelligence
Committee.  The Featured CD at Midnight was "In Session (AM Mix)" on
Bogus Focus Records.
http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb


PLAYLIST:

11:04 pm
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
Kevin Braheny        Starflight 1 *       Galaxies (Hearts of Space)
Chuck van Zyl        Angelos              Cenotaph (Synkronos)
Paul Harryn          1st Mvt: Winter      Changing Seasons (none)
VA [Symatic Star]    Baktun 13            Doomsday and Brimstone (Sound
                                             for Good)
Motionfield          So Far Away          A Sort of Homecoming
                                             (Autoload)
Broken Harbour       Ansible              The Geometry of Shadows
                                             (Relaxed Machinery)


12:00 am
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
JIC                  Greig the Moose      In Session (Bogus Focus)
                        Moose Wanders In
JIC                  SubSeq 2             In Session (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Chum, Pal and        In Session (Bogus Focus)
                        Winalot - Snack
JIC                  Untitled             In Session (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Beyond the Sofa      In Session (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  A Wreck No Phobia    In Session (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Grasping Jasper      In Session (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Untitled             In Session (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Cinbaaad!            In Session (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Greig the Moose      In Session (Bogus Focus)
                        Wanders Off Again


1:00 am

  * = excerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)
++ = Advance CDR from Artist
-- = Background music under interview


NEXT SHOW:
On the next Galactic Travels, I'll continue the month-long focus on
Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured CD at Midnight will be
"Excession" on Bogus Focus Records.
WDIY Announcement: http://wdiy.org/post/next-galactic-travels-2013-02-21

Bill
========================================================================
Host of Galactic Travels, an electronic, ambient, and space music show,
Thursdays at 11:04 pm EST/GMT-5 on WDIY 88.1 FM in Allentown and
Bethlehem, 93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, and on 93.7 FM in
Trexlertown and Fogelsville.  WDIY also broadcasts in HD Digital Radio
on 88.1 FM.
Galactic Travels web site: http://galactictravels.info
Listen to WDIY at http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels on-line.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 15:26:33 2013
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Subject: Live Not Seeing Controller via USB
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Quick question: Does anyone know why Live doesn't recognize my MIDI  
controller when it's plugged directly into my computer via USB, but it  
does recognize it when I plug in using a MIDI/USB interface? Live sees  
the Midisport ins and outs, in other words.  The direct USB connection  
would make my life a lot simpler.

The controller in question is a Liquid Foot+ 12+. Maybe I need to  
contact the developer of my controller? I can program my controller  
using an editor via USB.

Thanks,

Jeff (

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Subject: Re: Loosening strings on a flight? Or not?
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I usually do this, but didn't one time on a Sadowsky strat, and when I =
unpacked it the E string was broken. That convinced me that there are =
tension issues, so now I always loosen strings when I carry on a guitar, =
solid body or hollow.

Paul
http://paulsullivan.com




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On Feb 17, 2013, at 7:28 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

> The controller in question is a Liquid Foot+ 12+.


If you have OSX, maybe you have to add it as a midi device in Audio/ 
MIDI setup.




BobC


http://rpcollier.bandcamp.com/album/iterations
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On Feb 17, 2013, =
at 7:28 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

The =
controller in question is a Liquid Foot+ 12+. 

If you have OSX, maybe you have to add it as a midi =
device in Audio/MIDI =
setup.




BobC


=

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>
>> The controller in question is a Liquid Foot+ 12+.
>
>
> If you have OSX, maybe you have to add it as a midi device in Audio/ 
> MIDI setup.

Good suggestion. I'll see if that does it.

Thank you,

Jeff


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The =
controller in question is a Liquid Foot+ 12+. 

If you have OSX, maybe you have to add it as a midi =
device in Audio/MIDI setup.

Good =
suggestion. I'll see if that does it.

Thank =
you,

Jeff

=

--Apple-Mail-13-557046424--

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On Feb 17, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

>> If you have OSX, maybe you have to add it as a midi device in Audio/ 
>> MIDI setup.
>
> I'll see if that does it.
>


If your drivers are up to date it should not be necessary, but it may  
let Live see it.


BobC



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On Feb 17, 2013, =
at 7:52 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

If you have OSX, =
maybe you have to add it as a midi device in Audio/MIDI =
setup.

I'll see if that does =
it.



=

If your drivers are up to date it should not be necessary, but it =
may let Live see =
it.


BobC

=

=

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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:38:31 +0100
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Subject: Re: Live Not Seeing Controller via USB
From: Per Boysen 
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> If you have OSX, maybe you have to add it as a midi device in Audio/MIDI
> setup.

Don't forget to change the MIDI port accordingly inside Live's preferences.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 16:39:54 2013
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>> setup.
>
> Don't forget to change the MIDI port accordingly inside Live's  
> preferences.

Should I see anything in that list other than IAC USD Driver 1 (and 2)  
for the ins and outs? I guess I was expecting to see a port from my  
MIDI controller.

Thanks,

Jeff

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On Feb 17, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

> I guess I was expecting to see a port from my MIDI controller.



If you named it as an added device, it ought to show up in Live ports  
if connected.


BobC
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On Feb 17, 2013, =
at 8:41 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

I guess I was =
expecting to see a port from my MIDI =
controller.



If you =
named it as an added device, it ought to show up in Live ports if =
connected.


BobC
=

--Apple-Mail-4-560348078--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 17:12:58 2013
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Subject: Re: Live Not Seeing Controller via USB
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 11:14:26 -0600
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> If you named it as an added device, it ought to show up in Live  
> ports if connected.

I added "new device" in Audio/MIDI setup, but I don't think I did it  
correctly--or my MBP isn't seeing my controller--or both. Everything  
works as it should using the MIDI/USB interface--at least so far--but  
I'm really baffled why I can't connect directly via USB. I'm going to  
email the Liquid Foot developer.

Thanks,

Jeff

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Subject: Re: Live Not Seeing Controller via USB
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Hate to say this but=85 if you have not restarted Ableton, give that a =
try and then look at the MIDI prefs again and see if the device is =
visible.

Every now and then the communication is just lost between my bank of =
simple KORG nano controllers and Ableton for no reason that I can =
discern=85 and the only thing that re-establishes the communication is =
restarting Ableton.

P :)

On Feb 17, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Jeff Shirkey  wrote:

>=20
>=20
>> If you named it as an added device, it ought to show up in Live ports =
if connected.
>=20
> I added "new device" in Audio/MIDI setup, but I don't think I did it =
correctly--or my MBP isn't seeing my controller--or both. Everything =
works as it should using the MIDI/USB interface--at least so far--but =
I'm really baffled why I can't connect directly via USB. I'm going to =
email the Liquid Foot developer.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Jeff
>=20

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On Feb 17, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

> but I'm really baffled why I can't connect directly via USB.

Are you using OS10.6.8?
If not, you may need an earlier version of the driver if they have it.

For audio/midi: With your LF connected, add new device then double  
click the new device icon and you can name it and setup the ports/ 
channels etc.
Then in Live under Midi Sync you might have to select the Controller  
as well as the LF ports.


BobC
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On Feb 17, 2013, =
at 9:14 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

but I'm =
really baffled why I can't connect directly via =
USB.

Are you using OS10.6.8?
If not, =
you may need an earlier version of the driver if they have =
it.

For audio/midi: With your LF connected, add =
new device then double click the new device icon and you can name it and =
setup the ports/channels etc.
Then in Live under Midi Sync you =
might have to select the Controller as well as the LF =
ports.


BobC
=

--Apple-Mail-5-562601288--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 17:31:33 2013
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Subject: Re: Live Not Seeing Controller via USB
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If your controller came with an install disc, install it. =20

R
www.glasswing.com
On 2013-02-17, at 9:14 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

>=20
>=20
>> If you named it as an added device, it ought to show up in Live ports =
if connected.
>=20
> I added "new device" in Audio/MIDI setup, but I don't think I did it =
correctly--or my MBP isn't seeing my controller--or both. Everything =
works as it should using the MIDI/USB interface--at least so far--but =
I'm really baffled why I can't connect directly via USB. I'm going to =
email the Liquid Foot developer.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Jeff
>=20

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 17:34:46 2013
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On Feb 17, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Richard Sales wrote:

> If your controller came with an install disc, install it.

No disc...it's not that kind of controller (like Novation, etc.).

See: http://www.famcmusic.com/product_lf+12+.shtml

:)

Thanks,

Jeff


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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 18:36:11 +0100
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Subject: Re: Live Not Seeing Controller via USB
From: Per Boysen 
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On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Richard Sales  wrote:
> If your controller came with an install disc, install it.

And check with the manufacturer's web page that the driver software on
the disc is up to date. Actually, myself I never even touch discs
coming with gear, I just download the latest software right away.

When working in a Mac OS you can sometimes forget that some gear still
are not compatible with a computer OS and requires a driver
installation.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Subject: Re: Live Not Seeing Controller via USB
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 11:58:26 -0600
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>
> Are you using OS10.6.8?

Yes...on that computer I am.

>
> For audio/midi: With your LF connected, add new device then double  
> click the new device icon and you can name it and setup the ports/ 
> channels etc.
> Then in Live under Midi Sync you might have to select the Controller  
> as well as the LF ports.

That's what I did, but something still isn't right. I got lost when  
setting up the ports/channels. I'm not on that computer at the moment,  
so I may not be remembering exactly what options I had for ports/ 
channels, but I think for ports I could only choose "1". For channels,  
I wasn't sure what to select. The LF will send MIDI out messages on  
every channel (of course). It receives on 16 (I can change that, too,  
if I want).

I have a feeling when I click "add new device" I'm adding a ghost,  
essentially. I don't think my MBP even recognizes the LF--but I could  
be wrong. I should check About this Mac/More Info and see what it says  
for that particular USB port.

I'll also restart Live, as Philip suggested. I *think* I restarted  
Live at least once, but it can't hurt to double/triple check.

Thanks, everyone.

Jeff

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On Feb 17, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

>  I don't think my MBP even recognizes the LF--but I could be wrong.


I glanced at the Quick Guide -- the description almost makes it seem  
as if the usb is only for accessing the editor and not for sending  
midi direct.


BobC
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On Feb 17, 2013, =
at 9:58 AM, Jeff Shirkey wrote:

 I don't think my MBP even =
recognizes the LF--but I could be =
wrong.


I glanced at the =
Quick Guide -- the description almost makes it seem as if the usb is =
only for accessing the editor and not for sending midi =
direct.


BobC
=

--Apple-Mail-6-566554746--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 18:55:18 2013
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>
> I glanced at the Quick Guide -- the description almost makes it seem  
> as if the usb is only for accessing the editor and not for sending  
> midi direct.

I'm thinking that must be the case. I'll ask the developer if there's  
any way to implement that feature in a firmware upgrade--assuming it's  
possible, that is.

Thanks...sorry for the wild goose chase!!

Jeff

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 22:34:09 2013
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:18:42 -0500
To: DrTVideo@egroups.com
From: "Emile Tobenfeld (a.k.a Dr. T)" 
Subject: Tonights show CANCELLED for high winds and possible snow
Cc: eyecandy@egroups.com, boss-improv@topica.com, iotacenter@egroups.com,
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Hi folks,

I'll be doing video improvisations
-- 
My photography can be viewed at 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22231918@N06/collections/72157603627170351/

My videos can be viewed at
http://www.youtube.com/Tobenfeld

		Emile Tobenfeld, Ph. D.
Video Producer			Image Processing Specialist
Video for your HEAD!			Boris FX
http://www.foryourhead.com		http://www.borisfx.com

"My destination is always the same, but I work out a different route 
to get there"  -- Henri Matisse

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Sun Feb 17 23:44:28 2013
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Message-ID: 
Subject: OT: Anybody know anything about Brian Harnetty & Bonnie "Prince"
 Billy's "Silent City" from 2009?
From: Art Simon 
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Just curious if anyone else out there is as blown away and intrigued
by this album as I am. Just came across a track from this album on
internet radio today. Sounds like there might be some looping
involved, but I haven't seen any specifics on how it was produced.
>From what I I find googling, Brian Harnetty is an English musicologist
who is very interested in Appalachian music and electronic music
production. Bonnie Prince Billy is a Kentuckian with a punk aesthetic.
The result is similar to what Satie might have done if he used
harmonium, drums, Appalachian folk music, electronics and samples. I'm
blown away.
http://www.amazon.com/Silent-City-Brian-Harnetty/dp/B002BEXF2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361144467&sr=8-1&keywords=silent+city+bonnie
-- 
Art Simon
simart@gmail.com

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Subject: Re: OT: Anybody know anything about Brian Harnetty & Bonnie "Prince"
 Billy's "Silent City" from 2009?
From: Art Simon 
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Here's a link to a track on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=490dtacOMx8

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Art Simon  wrote:
> Just curious if anyone else out there is as blown away and intrigued
> by this album as I am. Just came across a track from this album on
> internet radio today. Sounds like there might be some looping
> involved, but I haven't seen any specifics on how it was produced.
> From what I I find googling, Brian Harnetty is an English musicologist
> who is very interested in Appalachian music and electronic music
> production. Bonnie Prince Billy is a Kentuckian with a punk aesthetic.
> The result is similar to what Satie might have done if he used
> harmonium, drums, Appalachian folk music, electronics and samples. I'm
> blown away.
> http://www.amazon.com/Silent-City-Brian-Harnetty/dp/B002BEXF2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361144467&sr=8-1&keywords=silent+city+bonnie
> --
> Art Simon
> simart@gmail.com



-- 
Art Simon
simart@gmail.com

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Subject: Re: OT: Anybody know anything about Brian Harnetty & Bonnie "Prince" Billy's "Silent City" from 2009?
From: Philip Clevenger 
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Wonderful.

On Feb 17, 2013, at 3:59 PM, Art Simon  wrote:

> Here's a link to a track on youtube:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D490dtacOMx8
>=20
> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Art Simon  wrote:
>> Just curious if anyone else out there is as blown away and intrigued
>> by this album as I am. Just came across a track from this album on
>> internet radio today. Sounds like there might be some looping
>> involved, but I haven't seen any specifics on how it was produced.
>> =46rom what I I find googling, Brian Harnetty is an English =
musicologist
>> who is very interested in Appalachian music and electronic music
>> production. Bonnie Prince Billy is a Kentuckian with a punk =
aesthetic.
>> The result is similar to what Satie might have done if he used
>> harmonium, drums, Appalachian folk music, electronics and samples. =
I'm
>> blown away.
>> =
http://www.amazon.com/Silent-City-Brian-Harnetty/dp/B002BEXF2I/ref=3Dsr_1_=
1?ie=3DUTF8&qid=3D1361144467&sr=3D8-1&keywords=3Dsilent+city+bonnie
>> --
>> Art Simon
>> simart@gmail.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Art Simon
> simart@gmail.com
>=20

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb 18 00:24:45 2013
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Subject: Re: OT: Anybody know anything about Brian Harnetty & Bonnie "Prince" Billy's "Silent City" from 2009?
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 16:24:41 -0800
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On Feb 17, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Art Simon wrote:

> Just came across a track from this album on
> internet radio today.



Great stuff.

I liked this vid but it does not name the song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=365LUJsRbXA

Here is Harnetty at a county fair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTYuJxaGmhs

I dig the radically unglam costume and he looks like me!, except he  
has a bit more hair.
:-)


Thanks for sharing that.


BobC
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On Feb 17, 2013, =
at 3:44 PM, Art Simon wrote:

Just came =
across a track from this album on
internet radio =
today.



Great stuff.

I liked this vid but it does not =
name the song:

Here is Harnetty =
at a county fair

I dig the =
radically unglam costume and he looks like me!, except he has a bit more =
hair.
:-)


Thanks for =
sharing =
that.


BobC
=

--Apple-Mail-7-587792278--

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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 16:37:46 -0800
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 Billy's "Silent City" from 2009?
From: Art Simon 
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Thanks RP, The video of Harnetty at the county fair is wonderful. I
love the kids running around in front of the stage. I think the man is
a genius. I can't believe I didn't hear of him before.

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 4:24 PM, RP Collier  wrote:
>
> On Feb 17, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Art Simon wrote:
>
> Just came across a track from this album on
> internet radio today.
>
>
>
>
> Great stuff.
>
> I liked this vid but it does not name the song:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=365LUJsRbXA
>
> Here is Harnetty at a county fair
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTYuJxaGmhs
>
> I dig the radically unglam costume and he looks like me!, except he has a
> bit more hair.
> :-)
>
>
> Thanks for sharing that.
>
>
> BobC



-- 
Art Simon
simart@gmail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb 18 17:48:52 2013
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Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the crew at =
EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 45000 multi-track looping recorde=
r.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D0gKWfvd-chA

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Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the cre=
w at EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 45000 multi-track looping recorder.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D0gKWfvd-chA


----------MB_8CFDC1757C6DB57_1EC8_11DF8_webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb 18 17:57:32 2013
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:57:31 -0800
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Subject: Re: New Electro-Harmonix 45000 looper demo
From: Art Simon 
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Very fun video!

Wow, the 45,000! You don't see many model numbers that big, it must
really be good.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:48 AM,   wrote:
> Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the crew at
> EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 45000 multi-track looping
> recorder.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA



-- 
Art Simon
simart@gmail.com

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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:14:57 +0100
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Subject: Re: New Electro-Harmonix 45000 looper demo
From: Per Boysen 
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Yes indeed! A thousand times better than a forty five!
http://youtu.be/Sr3IRynwb8M

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Art Simon  wrote:
> Very fun video!
>
> Wow, the 45,000! You don't see many model numbers that big, it must
> really be good.
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:48 AM,   wrote:
>> Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the crew at
>> EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 45000 multi-track looping
>> recorder.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA
>
>
>
> --
> Art Simon
> simart@gmail.com
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb 18 19:00:00 2013
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From: Buzap 
To: "LD LoopersDelight" 
Subject: Any decent Midi/USB keyboards these days? (37keys/aftertouch;
 Sculpture)
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Hi folks

I'm looking for a compact yet capable midi (or USB) keyboard. Year after year, I go through the same procedure: Go to a music store, try out ALL available midi/USB keyboards - then go home empty handed... Sure, with a 2000+ EUR/$ synthesizer, you sometimes get nice keyboard action. But usb keyboard controllers?
Once in a while, I unbox my beautiful Korg Trinity and I'm amazed how musical & expressive the keyboard plays: My right hand plays a wonderful (I believe Fatar) top quality keyboard with responsive aftertouch. In my left hand, I have a joystick (x = pitch, y+/- = two modulations), ribbon control and two switches directly available. 

I have to yet recreate that experience on a midi/usb keyboard + software setting.
As for software, Logic's Sculpture was an exciting discovery recently. Can't believe I've ignored such a great physical modeling instrument for so long... I love it!

With hardware keyboards, I still have problems.

First a word on quality/responsiveness/aftertouch:
Is it me or do midi/usb keyboards in recent years lack the quality of simple keyboards in the 90ies?
I mean, in early 90ies, even a cheaper Yamaha/Casio keyboard would have decent action. Even the crappy old Casio VL-1 from the 80ies has better built quality than most laptop-sized keyboards nowadays.
Talking about responsiveness: Hardly any keyboard seems to have aftertouch. Lack thereof completely takes the life out of the virtual instrument for me.

Then modulation wheels (yuck):
If the compact keyboards provide any modulation/pitchbend at all, it's mostly wheels (vs joystick). I wonder: How do you actually manage to use two (=pitchbend+mod) wheels at the same time? With a joystick, I can manage more parameters easily (see above). Mod wheels? I don't know...

Here a word on 37 keys:
I find 2 octaves utterly useless. First, you only get real two octaves when you play the note "C". For any other note, you only have one "real" full octave. And for entering chord progressions, it's never enough.
With 37 keys, you can start off in the middle octave and you can always jump up/down one octave (then realign with octave buttons). For me it's perfect for single handed playing. For two hands, I at least need 5 octaves minimum. So don't know why people come up with 25/49-keybards.
While we're at it: Why start with the note "C"? Starting with F/G would be much more useful...

Ok, so, what are my options? My favorite being the Korg Microkey...
KORG MICROKEY 37 (http://www.korg.com/microkey)
+ compact size
+ good keyboard action
+ pitchbend and mod wheel!
- lacks aftertouch
- no sustain pedal
NOVATION SL 37 / successor?? (http://novationmusic.de/midi-controllers/sl-mkii)
+ As far as I remember, action was quite nice.
+ Expressive controls (joystick, touchpad, aftertouch)
- too bulky, faders etc. take a lot of space
? Not available anymore, any decent successor???
ALESIS VORTEX KEYTAR (http://www.alesis.com/vortex)
+/- it's a keytar! :-)
+ Has aftertouch!!
? Any experience playing it / or keytar advice in general???
ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS?
?

As always, looking forward to your feedback :)
Buzap

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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 14:14:34 -0500
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Awesome.. I mixed Reggie Watts' last album and it featured a lot of 
live looping, I never asked but assumed it was all RC-50.



At 12:48 PM -0500 2/18/13, baranger1@aol.com wrote:
>Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the 
>crew at EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 
>45000 multi-track looping recorder.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA


-- 

...
http://www.zmix.net

http://albumcredits.com/zmix
--============_-850907617==_ma============
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Re: New Electro-Harmonix 45000 looper
demo

Awesome.. I mixed Reggie Watts' last album and it featured a lot
of live looping, I never asked but assumed it was all RC-50.











At 12:48 PM -0500 2/18/13, baranger1@aol.com wrote:


Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike
Matthews and the crew at EHX to lay down a funky groove on the
new 45000 multi-track looping
recorder.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA








-- 





...

http://www.zmix.net



http://albumcredits.com/zmix



--============_-850907617==_ma============--

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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:16:43 -0800
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Subject: Re: Any decent Midi/USB keyboards these days? (37keys/aftertouch; Sculpture)
From: Art Simon 
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Well, I'm happy with both my Akai MPK49 and M-Audio Venom. You can get
some really good deals on the Venom these days. The Akai has afterouch
and the Venom doesn't. Honestly though, I'm not sure I have very high
standards in keyboards, and I've never played a Korg Trinity, so I
can't compare the keyboard actions.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Buzap  wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> I'm looking for a compact yet capable midi (or USB) keyboard. Year after =
year, I go through the same procedure: Go to a music store, try out ALL ava=
ilable midi/USB keyboards - then go home empty handed... Sure, with a 2000+=
 EUR/$ synthesizer, you sometimes get nice keyboard action. But usb keyboar=
d controllers?
> Once in a while, I unbox my beautiful Korg Trinity and I'm amazed how mus=
ical & expressive the keyboard plays: My right hand plays a wonderful (I be=
lieve Fatar) top quality keyboard with responsive aftertouch. In my left ha=
nd, I have a joystick (x =3D pitch, y+/- =3D two modulations), ribbon contr=
ol and two switches directly available.
>
> I have to yet recreate that experience on a midi/usb keyboard + software =
setting.
> As for software, Logic's Sculpture was an exciting discovery recently. Ca=
n't believe I've ignored such a great physical modeling instrument for so l=
ong... I love it!
>
> With hardware keyboards, I still have problems.
>
> First a word on quality/responsiveness/aftertouch:
> Is it me or do midi/usb keyboards in recent years lack the quality of sim=
ple keyboards in the 90ies?
> I mean, in early 90ies, even a cheaper Yamaha/Casio keyboard would have d=
ecent action. Even the crappy old Casio VL-1 from the 80ies has better buil=
t quality than most laptop-sized keyboards nowadays.
> Talking about responsiveness: Hardly any keyboard seems to have aftertouc=
h. Lack thereof completely takes the life out of the virtual instrument for=
 me.
>
> Then modulation wheels (yuck):
> If the compact keyboards provide any modulation/pitchbend at all, it's mo=
stly wheels (vs joystick). I wonder: How do you actually manage to use two =
(=3Dpitchbend+mod) wheels at the same time? With a joystick, I can manage m=
ore parameters easily (see above). Mod wheels? I don't know...
>
> Here a word on 37 keys:
> I find 2 octaves utterly useless. First, you only get real two octaves wh=
en you play the note "C". For any other note, you only have one "real" full=
 octave. And for entering chord progressions, it's never enough.
> With 37 keys, you can start off in the middle octave and you can always j=
ump up/down one octave (then realign with octave buttons). For me it's perf=
ect for single handed playing. For two hands, I at least need 5 octaves min=
imum. So don't know why people come up with 25/49-keybards.
> While we're at it: Why start with the note "C"? Starting with F/G would b=
e much more useful...
>
> Ok, so, what are my options? My favorite being the Korg Microkey...
> KORG MICROKEY 37 (http://www.korg.com/microkey)
> + compact size
> + good keyboard action
> + pitchbend and mod wheel!
> - lacks aftertouch
> - no sustain pedal
> NOVATION SL 37 / successor?? (http://novationmusic.de/midi-controllers/sl=
-mkii)
> + As far as I remember, action was quite nice.
> + Expressive controls (joystick, touchpad, aftertouch)
> - too bulky, faders etc. take a lot of space
> ? Not available anymore, any decent successor???
> ALESIS VORTEX KEYTAR (http://www.alesis.com/vortex)
> +/- it's a keytar! :-)
> + Has aftertouch!!
> ? Any experience playing it / or keytar advice in general???
> ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS?
> ?
>
> As always, looking forward to your feedback :)
> Buzap
>



--=20
Art Simon
simart@gmail.com

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Subject: New looping piece out!
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Unable to read this email, please upgrage your mail client

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http://www.songfight.org/music/starting_a_witch_hunt/tylerzahnke_sawh.mp3
Tyler=20Z


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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 20:55:18 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Any decent Midi/USB keyboards these days? (37keys/aftertouch; Sculpture)
From: Per Boysen 
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Het Buzzy - have you considered Push? It will be out on March 5. An
early tester at Ableton forum said:

"I just tried the latest pads from Akai. I am biased, but I have a
studio that is filled with velocity sensitive products, and these are
the most sensitive pads I have ever played, while still retaining the
solid feel of Akai pads. This is obviously subjective, so I encourage
you to try these pads side by side with anything else on the market
yourself."

Videos up at https://www.ableton.com/en/push/

But maybe you are trained on the traditional chromatic piano styled
keyboard? Then you should of course stick with that. You should ask
for weight keys in the music store to get the best playing action in a
MIDI keyboard. I learned that from classically trainde colleges. For
me, coming from a guitar background, the Push with its chromatic pads
layout seems very attractive. Especially since the last three years of
Stick playing have taught me a better attack accuracy in finger
tapping (the reason trained piano players want weight keys). And since
I recently started using virtual electronic instruments with loads of
layers and note based control over many octaves I'm not very happy
with my trusty old microKONTROL. It has three octaves plastic mini
keys. When playing note/switch sampler patches I have to program its
drum buttons to send the exact MIDI notes to switch. A full keyboard
(or preferably PUSH) would be so much faster.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Art Simon  wrote:
> Well, I'm happy with both my Akai MPK49 and M-Audio Venom. You can get
> some really good deals on the Venom these days. The Akai has afterouch
> and the Venom doesn't. Honestly though, I'm not sure I have very high
> standards in keyboards, and I've never played a Korg Trinity, so I
> can't compare the keyboard actions.
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Buzap  wrote:
>> Hi folks
>>
>> I'm looking for a compact yet capable midi (or USB) keyboard. Year after=
 year, I go through the same procedure: Go to a music store, try out ALL av=
ailable midi/USB keyboards - then go home empty handed... Sure, with a 2000=
+ EUR/$ synthesizer, you sometimes get nice keyboard action. But usb keyboa=
rd controllers?
>> Once in a while, I unbox my beautiful Korg Trinity and I'm amazed how mu=
sical & expressive the keyboard plays: My right hand plays a wonderful (I b=
elieve Fatar) top quality keyboard with responsive aftertouch. In my left h=
and, I have a joystick (x =3D pitch, y+/- =3D two modulations), ribbon cont=
rol and two switches directly available.
>>
>> I have to yet recreate that experience on a midi/usb keyboard + software=
 setting.
>> As for software, Logic's Sculpture was an exciting discovery recently. C=
an't believe I've ignored such a great physical modeling instrument for so =
long... I love it!
>>
>> With hardware keyboards, I still have problems.
>>
>> First a word on quality/responsiveness/aftertouch:
>> Is it me or do midi/usb keyboards in recent years lack the quality of si=
mple keyboards in the 90ies?
>> I mean, in early 90ies, even a cheaper Yamaha/Casio keyboard would have =
decent action. Even the crappy old Casio VL-1 from the 80ies has better bui=
lt quality than most laptop-sized keyboards nowadays.
>> Talking about responsiveness: Hardly any keyboard seems to have aftertou=
ch. Lack thereof completely takes the life out of the virtual instrument fo=
r me.
>>
>> Then modulation wheels (yuck):
>> If the compact keyboards provide any modulation/pitchbend at all, it's m=
ostly wheels (vs joystick). I wonder: How do you actually manage to use two=
 (=3Dpitchbend+mod) wheels at the same time? With a joystick, I can manage =
more parameters easily (see above). Mod wheels? I don't know...
>>
>> Here a word on 37 keys:
>> I find 2 octaves utterly useless. First, you only get real two octaves w=
hen you play the note "C". For any other note, you only have one "real" ful=
l octave. And for entering chord progressions, it's never enough.
>> With 37 keys, you can start off in the middle octave and you can always =
jump up/down one octave (then realign with octave buttons). For me it's per=
fect for single handed playing. For two hands, I at least need 5 octaves mi=
nimum. So don't know why people come up with 25/49-keybards.
>> While we're at it: Why start with the note "C"? Starting with F/G would =
be much more useful...
>>
>> Ok, so, what are my options? My favorite being the Korg Microkey...
>> KORG MICROKEY 37 (http://www.korg.com/microkey)
>> + compact size
>> + good keyboard action
>> + pitchbend and mod wheel!
>> - lacks aftertouch
>> - no sustain pedal
>> NOVATION SL 37 / successor?? (http://novationmusic.de/midi-controllers/s=
l-mkii)
>> + As far as I remember, action was quite nice.
>> + Expressive controls (joystick, touchpad, aftertouch)
>> - too bulky, faders etc. take a lot of space
>> ? Not available anymore, any decent successor???
>> ALESIS VORTEX KEYTAR (http://www.alesis.com/vortex)
>> +/- it's a keytar! :-)
>> + Has aftertouch!!
>> ? Any experience playing it / or keytar advice in general???
>> ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS?
>> ?
>>
>> As always, looking forward to your feedback :)
>> Buzap
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Art Simon
> simart@gmail.com
>

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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 14:53:38 -0500
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: New Electro-Harmonix 45000 looper demo
From: Bennett Williams 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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The EHX unit is only 16 bit / 44.1 kHz, which isn't that great in terms of
dynamic range.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Charles Zwicky wrote:

> **
> Awesome.. I mixed Reggie Watts' last album and it featured a lot of live
> looping, I never asked but assumed it was all RC-50.
>
>
>
> At 12:48 PM -0500 2/18/13, baranger1@aol.com wrote:
>
> Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the crew at
> EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 45000multi-track looping recorder.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA
>
>
>
> **
>
> --
>
> **
>
> ...
> http://www.zmix.net
>
> http://albumcredits.com/zmix
>



-- 
*Bennett Williams*
*
http://www.bennettwilliams.net
http://bennettwilliams.bandcamp.com/
http://www.soundcloud.com/bennettwilliams*

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The EHX unit is only 16 bit / 44.1 kHz, which isn't that great in terms=
 of dynamic range.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 a=
t 2:14 PM, Charles Zwicky <cazwicky@earthlink.net> wrot=
e:






Awesome.. I mixed Reggie Watts' last album and it featured a lot
of live looping, I never asked but assumed it was all RC-50.











At 12:48 PM -0500 2/18/13, baranger1@aol.com wrote:


Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike
Matthews and the crew at EHX to lay down a funky groove on the
new 45000 multi-track looping
recorder.



=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D0gKWfvd-chA








--=20









-- 
Bennett Williams<=
/b>

http://www.bennettwilliams.net
http://bennettwilliams.bandcamp.com/<=
br>
htt=
p://www.soundcloud.com/bennettwilliams


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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 21:32:13 +0100
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Subject: Re: New Electro-Harmonix 45000 looper demo
From: Per Boysen 
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On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Bennett Williams
 wrote:
> The EHX unit is only 16 bit / 44.1 kHz, which isn't that great in terms of
> dynamic range.


Well, that's the same digital resolution as a CD record. Good enough
dynamic range at least for me. Seems to be a great looping box for
those who can spare a hand for the controls.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Hi Per

> You should ask for weight keys
I already have an 88-key stage piano with very realistic, fully weighted piano keyboard. I'm looking forward for compact keyboard with lightweight keys for single handed solo play or midi entering.

@Andy: thanks for your hints. Would like to have 37 (vs 49) keys. Also, I think I'd prefer Novation over Akai, probably.

> have you considered Push?
I'm considering Push - but not primarily as keyboard. I'm not a great classical piano player but proficient enough to play i.e. simple Bach inventions or some improvisation. So, still looking for "real" keyboard - even though Push is really interesting for a lot of things... Can't wait to try it out. :-)

best regards
Buzap

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Subject: Still More Live Questions
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:32:59 -0600
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Sorry for all the bone-head, newbie Live questions, but (I can't help  
myself), I've got a couple more in me.

Here's what I wish I could do in Live, but I don't think this is  
possible. Please let me know if I'm wrong *or* if there is a  
workaround that can accomplish what I want to do, but through some  
other means.

I've got a MIDI controller that controls my guitar rack. I also am  
using it to control Live, although I'm still taking baby steps in that  
regard. I've done some very basic MIDI mapping that allows me to stop/ 
start scenes from the transport bar using my controller, and I've also  
just begun to map a couple other functions.

What I wish I could do is to be able to call up and subsequently  
launch a scene by having it be part of my song preset(s) in my MIDI  
controller.

Example: Let's say I hit a song preset on my controller. As part of  
that preset's programming, I would like to send a PC (or CC, I guess)  
message to Live telling it which scene to play. Ideally, though, when  
I call up my song preset from my MIDI controller, the scene in Live  
would arm, but it wouldn't yet launch. I would then dedicate a  
separate switch on my controller to start/stop each scene. (Actually,  
I've done that already.)

 From what I can tell, what I wish I could do is impossible because,  
for one thing, Live doesn't receive messages on a unique MIDI channel  
that I assign to it. (I think it must receive any/all MIDI messages I  
send, regardless of the channel) Also, and more importantly (I  
think??), there's no way to give each scene in Live a unique PC #--or  
is there? So, I can't send a MIDI message to Live the same way I do  
all my other gear in my rack by adding something like this to the  
preset: MIDI Command, 14 (Channel), PC# 8 (calls up the 8th scene in  
my Live Set).

Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and  
use in different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use  
scene 5--and so on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in  
different parts of the song. There is no way to program my MIDI  
controller so that scene a is armed when I hit song A's preset,  
correct? And there's no way to trigger Song B's different scenes on a  
per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the song by doing that  
programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?

If there *is* a way to do what I want, please point me in the right  
direction.

If I can't do it the way I'd ideally like to, I can at least assign  
scroll up/down functions to two IA switches on my controller, so that  
I can quickly move through my list of scenes and launch the correct  
one when I need them in any given song, right? But, if that's the  
case, I need to be able to see my laptop screen to make sure I am  
choosing the right scene. And..well...my vision ain't what it used to  
be. :)

You guys have been great, so any more help would be sincerely  
appreciated. I've been pouring over the manual, but I'm still  
(obviously) new at this and a little confus-ed.

Thanks,

Jeff

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On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey  wrote:
> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and use in
> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 5--and so
> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts of the
> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a is armed
> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger Song B's
> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the song by
> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?


MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
hand mixer knob.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Am 14.02.2013 23:51, schrieb info@riversonicstudios.com:
> Hi Rainer,
>
> Thanks very much for your post!
>
> I have a K5000r too !... just cant take on any more clobber on the road!
> By the way have you ever had the screen on your 5000r disappear to 
> then have to switch the unit on and off to have it reappear?!
>
> Back to the case in point!...
>
Mhmmm, still don't think I completely understand how your work this. Are 
you using any sequencers in your setup, either in Live or in the Kronos? 
Perhaps there's a video of you performing one of your tracks where one 
can get an idea how you work this? Or you could do a demo/Q&A via ustream?

             Rainer

ps: only had the K5000R for two weeks or so and had barely time to 
scratch the surface (64 6-step envelopes per source...phew). 
Fortunately, I didn't have the display problem so far...

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Am 18.02.2013 18:48, schrieb baranger1@aol.com:
> Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the 
> crew at EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 45000 
>  multi-track looping recorder.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA
How can I get to be a charter member of the looper hall of fame?

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Am 18.02.2013 18:48, schrieb
      baranger1@aol.com:

    

    
Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts,
        visited Mike Matthews and the crew at EHX to lay down a funky
        groove on the new 45000 multi-track
        looping recorder.

        

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA

      
    

    How can I get to be a charter member of the looper hall of fame?

  


--------------080607080209090206030909--

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 Sculpture)
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Am 18.02.2013 19:59, schrieb Buzap:
> Hi folks
>
> I'm looking for a compact yet capable midi (or USB) keyboard. Year after year, I go through the same
What's your price range, and are you open to buying something used?
Back in the days when they still made proper keyboards, the Korg 
Prophecy was a nice option with a three-octave keyboard, three wheels 
(one of them with a pressure-sensitive ribbon controller on it), 
arpeggiator and five rotary encoders. You also get sound synthesis 
thrown in ;).

                 Rainer

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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 15:23:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Elmer Fuddski 
Subject: Re: New Electro-Harmonix 45000 looper demo
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The looper manufacturers give no respect to this board. I know how that is. I keep writing NASA and try to get them interested in anti-gravity flying carpets. 

And GM won't listen to me and put urinals and microwave ovens in autos. 



------------------------------
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 3:08 PM PST Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill wrote:

>Am 18.02.2013 18:48, schrieb baranger1@aol.com:
>> Looper extraordinaire, Reggie Watts, visited Mike Matthews and the crew at EHX to lay down a funky groove on the new 45000  multi-track looping recorder.
>> 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKWfvd-chA
>How can I get to be a charter member of the looper hall of fame?

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 02:05:08 2013
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Subject: Re: New Electro-Harmonix 45000 looper demo
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All the controls are accessible through midi, so... you could construct =
a rig around it that only uses feet

Teddy
--
http://teddyjam.com

On Feb 19, 2013, at 4:32 AM, Per Boysen wrote:

> Well, that's the same digital resolution as a CD record. Good enough
> dynamic range at least for me. Seems to be a great looping box for
> those who can spare a hand for the controls.
>=20
> Greetings from Sweden
>=20
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 02:11:50 2013
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Thanks a lot for the helpful response, Per. That helps me quite a bit.  
Back to work I go.

Cheers!

Jeff


From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 04:59:00 2013
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 22:58:19 -0500
To: DrTVideo@egroups.com
From: "Emile Tobenfeld (a.k.a Dr. T)" 
Subject: Snow Trails (for Charlotte)  -- New video on You Tube
Cc: eyecandy@egroups.com, boss-improv@topica.com, iotacenter@egroups.com,
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Hi folks,

I've posted another video on You Tube -- My step-granddaughter 
Charlotte liked my snow clips -- I put this one up as an example of 
what I've done with those shots. This is a clip I'll be using in my 
live shows.

The main software used to create this was the Boris Continuum 
Complete Trails filter, which I wrote over 10 years ago as part of my 
day job.

http://youtu.be/mWrR_a1xt9U

BTW Some of my photography can be viewed at 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22231918@N06/collections/72157603627170351/
-- 
" Practice makes perfect, imperfect is better."  -- Paul Bley

		Emile Tobenfeld, Ph. D.
Video Producer			Image Processing Specialist
Video for your HEAD!			Boris FX
http://www.foryourhead.com		http://www.borisfx.com

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On 2/18/2013 11:16 AM, Art Simon wrote:
>   You can get
> some really good deals on the Venom these days
>
> *I just picked one up for 2 hundred and change and am blown away with what a powerful synth it is.
> It's very edgy and has deep, deep programming possibilities.*

> *It does NOT have typical keyboard,**organ or other conventional sounds.  It's a modern synthesizer.  I love it.*
/R.

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> Back in the days when they still made proper keyboards, the Korg 
> Prophecy was a nice option
Yeah, Rainer, I remember the Prophecy well :-)
I have the Trinity Plus which actually has the Prophecy board built-in. So don't have a particular need for the sound. So, just to get a decent keyboard, it's bit overpriced, since it's a almost a sought after rarity these days.

>Venom
I guess it's a decent keyboard for a decent price. Still, 49 keys...

So, I'm kind of leaning toward the Korg Microkeys or Alesis Vortex keytar.

Actually, the Arturia Analog Experience the Factory with 2,5 octaves might also be very interesting:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/arturia_analog_experience_the_factory.htm

best regards
Buzap

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Buzap wrote:

> NOVATION SL 37 / successor?? (http://novationmusic.de/midi-controllers/sl-mkii)
> + As far as I remember, action was quite nice.
> + Expressive controls (joystick, touchpad, aftertouch)
> - too bulky, faders etc. take a lot of space
> ? Not available anymore, any decent successor???

I have the smaller Novation SL, and while it does
technically have aftertouch I don't think you'd be happy
with it.
Have to press very hard, and the white keys only have full
range if you press them hard between the blacks.
Not really a feature, more a way to get another word into the
marketing text.


andy

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Doepfer seem to get good reviews.  They're one of the few (perhaps only) 
companies making dedicated controller keyboards without all the plasticy 
bells and whistles - just really solid key-beds and nothing else.  Only 
downside is they're pretty expensive and look like they weigh a ton.

It does seem as though the only way to get a good, compact keyboard these 
days is to get one with a synth built in!  I understand why manufacturers 
want to pack their controllers with all this distracting junk but I think 
there's a really big gap in the market for a simple, solid, compact, 
reasonably priced midi keyboard.  Just a keyboard and a pitch 
wheel/joystick and maybe a ribbon controller.  I know I'd buy one.  I don't 
know how many threads on message boards I've read where people are looking 
for just that.  Just something you can sit down in front of and play as an 
instrument, without having anything else to look at or think about.

It seems that all Akai, Novation, etc. see when they look at this market is 
16 year old wannabe 'producers' who want an entire studio in one box.

Anyway, having said all of that, this not-sixteen-year-old wannabe producer 
is very excited about Push.  Not sure I'll get one - it's hellish expensive 
- but I will definitely try one out at the first opportunity.  As I can't 
really play keys very well I'd be giving nothing up by learning to play 
that.  But then, as I said: expensive!



Philip.


--On 18 February 2013 19:59 +0100 Buzap  wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> I'm looking for a compact yet capable midi (or USB) keyboard. Year after
> year, I go through the same procedure: Go to a music store, try out ALL
> available midi/USB keyboards - then go home empty handed... Sure, with a
> 2000+ EUR/$ synthesizer, you sometimes get nice keyboard action. But usb
> keyboard controllers? Once in a while, I unbox my beautiful Korg Trinity
> and I'm amazed how musical & expressive the keyboard plays: My right hand
> plays a wonderful (I believe Fatar) top quality keyboard with responsive
> aftertouch. In my left hand, I have a joystick (x = pitch, y+/- = two
> modulations), ribbon control and two switches directly available.
>
> I have to yet recreate that experience on a midi/usb keyboard + software
> setting. As for software, Logic's Sculpture was an exciting discovery
> recently. Can't believe I've ignored such a great physical modeling
> instrument for so long... I love it!
>
> With hardware keyboards, I still have problems.
>
> First a word on quality/responsiveness/aftertouch:
> Is it me or do midi/usb keyboards in recent years lack the quality of
> simple keyboards in the 90ies? I mean, in early 90ies, even a cheaper
> Yamaha/Casio keyboard would have decent action. Even the crappy old Casio
> VL-1 from the 80ies has better built quality than most laptop-sized
> keyboards nowadays. Talking about responsiveness: Hardly any keyboard
> seems to have aftertouch. Lack thereof completely takes the life out of
> the virtual instrument for me.
>
> Then modulation wheels (yuck):
> If the compact keyboards provide any modulation/pitchbend at all, it's
> mostly wheels (vs joystick). I wonder: How do you actually manage to use
> two (=pitchbend+mod) wheels at the same time? With a joystick, I can
> manage more parameters easily (see above). Mod wheels? I don't know...
>
> Here a word on 37 keys:
> I find 2 octaves utterly useless. First, you only get real two octaves
> when you play the note "C". For any other note, you only have one "real"
> full octave. And for entering chord progressions, it's never enough. With
> 37 keys, you can start off in the middle octave and you can always jump
> up/down one octave (then realign with octave buttons). For me it's
> perfect for single handed playing. For two hands, I at least need 5
> octaves minimum. So don't know why people come up with 25/49-keybards.
> While we're at it: Why start with the note "C"? Starting with F/G would
> be much more useful...
>
> Ok, so, what are my options? My favorite being the Korg Microkey...
> KORG MICROKEY 37 (http://www.korg.com/microkey)
> + compact size
> + good keyboard action
> + pitchbend and mod wheel!
> - lacks aftertouch
> - no sustain pedal
> NOVATION SL 37 / successor??
> (http://novationmusic.de/midi-controllers/sl-mkii) + As far as I
> remember, action was quite nice.
> + Expressive controls (joystick, touchpad, aftertouch)
> - too bulky, faders etc. take a lot of space
> ? Not available anymore, any decent successor???
> ALESIS VORTEX KEYTAR (http://www.alesis.com/vortex)
> +/- it's a keytar! :-)
> + Has aftertouch!!
> ? Any experience playing it / or keytar advice in general???
> ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS?
> ?
>
> As always, looking forward to your feedback :)
> Buzap
>




From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 11:46:52 2013
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Thanks for the feedback on the Novation. I remember it was rather decent (Fatar keyboard I remember?) with a good keybed. Still, what you state is really sub-par and aftertouch is important.

Ok I'm glad we seem to agree that pretty much all the midi/usb keyboard controllers out there are basically crap compared to the solid keyboards found in professional synthesizers in the +2000$/EUR range...

I'm leaning - as a compromise - towards the ARTURIO EXPERIENCE THE FACTORY (http://www.arturia.com/evolution/en/products/AFE/intro.html)
+ full size keys with 2,5 octaves (starting note F)
+ Aftertouch! , pitchbend, mod wheel
+ connectors for sustain pedal, expression pedal, midi out
+ couple faders, buttons knobs
- I'd love to use the software, but hate the activation policy. I hope it runs usb/midi only without any driver/installation.

best regards
Buzap

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 17:32:55 2013
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From: info@riversonicstudios.com
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Latency in looping path
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:31:09 +0000 (GMT)
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Hi Per,

Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site for your=
 help.

I have sussed the looping OK !

However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now running =
my main mix 
into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will have =
to get a decent 
audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in digita=
lly from the KORG KRONOS via 
optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out analog =
is the main culprit.

Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when runn=
ing through ABLETON LIVE and 
if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the obv=
ious solution to this problem?

Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog mixe=
r into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin 
or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of course tha=
t the track is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.
My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to reroo=
t the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually send the si=
gnal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out of the alt3=
/4 bus which feeds the P.A.

BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the forma=
t of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?

Thanks! Henry 

>---- Original Message ----
>From: Per Boysen 
>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>
>On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey  wrot=
e:
>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and use i=
n
>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 5--and =
so
>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts of the=

>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a is ar=
med
>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger Song B=
's
>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the song =
by
>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?
>
>
>MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
>are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>hand mixer knob.
>
>Greetings from Sweden
>
>Per Boysen
>www.perboysen.com
>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 17:36:55 2013
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:36:51 +0000 (GMT)
From: Antony Hequet 
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Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
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---30515679-700165037-1361295411=:22659
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the RME UFX or Fireface or any interface RE has allows a very low latency b=
ecause the audio does not have to go thru the MAc before it is sent tot he =
mix or any submix you have, unless you are using the processing within =A0A=
bleton to enhance your sound sources.=0A=0AAntony Hequet=0A=0A=0A__________=
______________________=0A De=A0: "info@riversonicstudios.com" =0A=C0=A0: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com =0AEnvoy=E9 l=
e : Mardi 19 f=E9vrier 2013 18h31=0AObjet=A0: Latency in looping path=0A =
=0AHi Per,=0A=0AThought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on =
the site for your help.=0A=0AI have sussed the looping OK !=0A=0AHowever I =
now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now running my main m=
ix=0Ainto Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will=
 have to get a decent=0Aaudio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O H=
ave tried going in digitally from the KORG KRONOS via=0Aoptical into the Ma=
c- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out analog is the main culpri=
t.=0A=0AAnyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency =
when running through ABLETON LIVE and=0Aif a Firewire 800 unit like the MOT=
U 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the obvious solution to this problem?=0A=
=0AAudio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog =
mixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin=0Aor its strai=
ght forward auto input record function making sure of course that the track=
 is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.=0AMy mixer has a ":'=
 alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to reroot the returned si=
gnal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually send the signal via the mai=
n bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out of the alt3/4 bus which fe=
eds the P.A.=0A=0ABTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite u=
nderstand the format of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via em=
ail no?=0A=0AThanks! Henry=0A=0A>---- Original Message ----=0A>From: Per Bo=
ysen =0A>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com=0A>Se=
nt: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions=
=0A>=0A>On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey  wrote:=0A>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to cal=
l up and use in=0A>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B migh=
t use scene 5--and so=0A>> on.=A0 Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one eac=
h in different parts of the=0A>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI c=
ontroller so that scene a is armed=0A>> when I hit song A's preset, correct=
? And there's no way to trigger Song B's=0A>> different scenes on a per-pre=
set basis --or as I need them-- in the song by=0A>> doing that programming =
in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?=0A>=0A>=0A>MIDI PC is not go=
od with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes=0A>instead for launching sce=
nes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the=0A>MIDI Note (a CC might work =
too) to the corresponding slot on the=0A>master output's column in the Sess=
ion View. You can even use a MIDI=0A>Note that are part of what your contro=
ller is sending to your guitar=0A>rack when calling up a song, letting that=
 event trigger both the=0A>guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Liv=
e. And note that there=0A>are two options for controlling scens in Live; yo=
u may launch a scene=0A>directly or you may select the scene (to be launche=
d by the next=0A>command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used m=
yself with=0A>Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note e=
vent to=0A>an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the son=
g.=0A>This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button=
=0A>to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a=
=0A>hand mixer knob.=0A>=0A>Greetings from Sweden=0A>=0A>Per Boysen=0A>www.=
perboysen.com=0A>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
---30515679-700165037-1361295411=:22659
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


the RME UFX or Fireface or any interface RE has allows a very low latency=
 because the audio does not have to go thru the MAc before it is sent tot h=
e mix or any submix you have, unless you are using the processing within &n=
bsp;Ableton to enhance your sound sources.
Antony Hequet=


  
 
 
  
  De : "info@riversonicstudios.com" &l=
t;info@riversonicstudios.com>
 =
=C0 : Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com 
 Envoy=E9 le : Mardi 19 f=E9vrier 2013 =
18h31
 Objet : Lat=
ency in looping path
  
 
Hi Per,

Thought Id get b=
ack to you to thank you and your frieds on the site for your help.

I=
 have sussed the looping OK !

However I now have another problem: pr=
ogressive latency as I am now running my main mix
into Ableton LIVE befo=
re it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will have to get a decent
au=
dio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in digital=
ly from the
 KORG KRONOS via
optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect th=
at coming out analog is the main culprit.

Anyway I was just wonderin=
g how any of you guys avoid this latency when running through ABLETON LIVE =
and
if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be=
 the obvious solution to this problem?

Audio path: I run all my synt=
hs/external drums from a bus on the analog mixer into a track on Ableton ei=
ther using its LOOPER plugin
or its straight forward auto input record f=
unction making sure of course that the track is muted once the loop plays b=
ack in either instance.
My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortuna=
tely that allows me to reroot the returned signal from Ableton avoiding fee=
dback: I actually send the signal via the main bus out on the mixer and rer=
oot the return out of the alt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.

BTW please=
 forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the format
 of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?

Thank=
s! Henry

>---- Original Message ----
>From: Per Boysen <=
perboysen@gmail.com>
>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 1=
0:53 PM
>Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>
>On Mon=
, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey <jcshirke@frontier.com> wrote:
>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I w=
ant to call up and use in
>> different songs. Song A might use sce=
ne 1. Song B might use scene 5--and so
>> on.  Maybe Song B w=
ill use two scenes--one each in different parts of the
>> song. Th=
ere
 is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a is armed
>&g=
t; when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger Song =
B's
>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-=
- in the song by
>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI c=
ontroller--or is there?
>
>
>MIDI PC is not good with Liv=
e, you should use simple MIDI notes
>instead for launching scenes. To=
 launch a scene in Live you learn the
>MIDI Note (a CC might work too=
) to the corresponding slot on the
>master output's column in the Ses=
sion View. You can even use a MIDI
>Note that are part of what your c=
ontroller is sending to your guitar
>rack when calling up a song, let=
ting that event trigger both the
>guitar rack stuff and launching the=
 scene in Live. And note that there
>are two options for controlling =
scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>directly or you may
 select the scene (to be launched by the next
>command). Oh, there is=
 actually a third way (that I used myself with
>Live for a concert on=
ce) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>an empty scene prece=
ding the actual scen that will start the song.
>This approach also ne=
eds that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>to a pedal. At the =
gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>hand mixer knob.=

>
>Greetings from Sweden
>
>Per Boysen
>www.=
perboysen.com
>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen



 
 
=
  

---30515679-700165037-1361295411=:22659--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 17:40:59 2013
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Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
From: Daniel Thomas 
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You ned a low latency sound card for this work.  Once installed, you can =
=3D
manage your latency values in the Ableton Live's audio preferences pane.

I have had good luck with MOTU 896, 828MK and all of the RE Cards.

Best of luck,
Daniel
On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:31 AM, info@riversonicstudios.com wrote:

> Hi Per,
>=20
> Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site =
for your help.
>=20
> I have sussed the looping OK !
>=20
> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now =
running my main mix
> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will =
have to get a decent
> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in =
digitally from the KORG KRONOS via
> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out =
analog is the main culprit.
>=20
> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency =
when running through ABLETON LIVE and
> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be =
the obvious solution to this problem?
>=20
> Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the =
analog mixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin
> or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of =
course that the track is muted once the loop plays back in either =
instance.
> My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to =
reroot the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually =
send the signal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return =
out of the alt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.
>=20
> BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the =
format of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?
>=20
> Thanks! Henry
>=20
>> ---- Original Message ----
>> From: Per Boysen 
>> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>> Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey =
 wrote:
>>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and =
use in
>>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene =
5--and so
>>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts =
of the
>>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a =
is armed
>>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger =
Song B's
>>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the =
song by
>>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is =
there?
>>=20
>>=20
>> MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>> instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>> MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>> master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>> Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>> rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>> guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that =
there
>> are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>> directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>> command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>> Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>> an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>> This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>> to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and =
a
>> hand mixer knob.
>>=20
>> Greetings from Sweden
>>=20
>> Per Boysen
>> www.perboysen.com
>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>=20

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 17:50:55 2013
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:50:55 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
From: Per Boysen 
To: Loopers-Delight 
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Yes, of course a decent audio interface helps with the latency issue!
On the level of interfaces you are mentioning there is also the
possibility to copy the audio stream coming from your physical mixing
desk directly to the the audio interface's output without passing the
software (Ableton Live). This is called "direct monitoring" and has
zero latency. You don't really need to listen to the mixer desk stuff
THROUGH Ableton Live do you? What you need form Live is only the
output of whatever you snag as a loop and maybe effects like reverb
and delay that you add to your mixing desk stream.

If you run Ableton as a sync master latency in MIDI instruments driven
by MIDI clips/loops as well as Live's Loopoer plugin should be
compensated for. If you run Live as a sync slave to something else
this latency compensation does not work ('cause not even Live can look
into the future and read your mind) and you need to be carful not to
use and latency inducing plugins within the session.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Antony Hequet  wro=
te:
> the RME UFX or Fireface or any interface RE has allows a very low latency
> because the audio does not have to go thru the MAc before it is sent tot =
he
> mix or any submix you have, unless you are using the processing within
> Ableton to enhance your sound sources.
>
> Antony Hequet
>
> ________________________________
> De : "info@riversonicstudios.com" 
> =C3=80 : Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
> Envoy=C3=A9 le : Mardi 19 f=C3=A9vrier 2013 18h31
> Objet : Latency in looping path
>
> Hi Per,
>
> Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site for y=
our
> help.
>
> I have sussed the looping OK !
>
> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now runni=
ng
> my main mix
> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will ha=
ve
> to get a decent
> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in
> digitally from the KORG KRONOS via
> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out anal=
og
> is the main culprit.
>
> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when
> running through ABLETON LIVE and
> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the
> obvious solution to this problem?
>
> Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog
> mixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin
> or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of course
> that the track is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.
> My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to
> reroot the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually sen=
d
> the signal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out of
> the alt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.
>
> BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the
> format of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?
>
> Thanks! Henry
>
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: Per Boysen 
>>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>>Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>>
>>On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey 
>> wrote:
>>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and use
>>> in
>>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 5--an=
d
>>> so
>>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts of t=
he
>>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a is
>>> armed
>>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger Song
>>> B's
>>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the son=
g
>>> by
>>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?
>>
>>
>>MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>>instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>>MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>>master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>>Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>>rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>>guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
>>are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>>directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>>command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>>Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>>an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>>This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>>to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>>hand mixer knob.
>>
>>Greetings from Sweden
>>
>>Per Boysen
>>www.perboysen.com
>>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 17:58:27 2013
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From: info@riversonicstudios.com
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: Re: Any decent Midi/USB keyboards these days? (37keys/aftertouch; 
	Sculpture)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:58:03 +0000 (GMT)
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Hi Andy,

I thought Id add some input on somebody elses problems for a change and vouc=
h for the 
ROLAND A-50 which is a 76 organ weighted key 4 zone midi master keyboard wit=
h fully programmable
 polyphonic or monophonic aftertouch, 4 switch/slider 64 patch and chain mem=
ory which will top anything around today!
Mines 20 years old and still going strong!

>---- Original Message ----
>From: andy butler 
>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>Sent: Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 8:21 AM
>Subject: Re: Any decent Midi/USB keyboards these days? (37keys/aftertouch; =
Sculpture)
>
>Buzap wrote:
>
>> NOVATION SL 37 / successor?? (http://novationmusic.de/midi-controllers/sl=
-mkii)
>> + As far as I remember, action was quite nice.
>> + Expressive controls (joystick, touchpad, aftertouch)
>> - too bulky, faders etc. take a lot of space
>> ? Not available anymore, any decent successor???
>
>I have the smaller Novation SL, and while it does
>technically have aftertouch I don't think you'd be happy
>with it.
>Have to press very hard, and the white keys only have full
>range if you press them hard between the blacks.
>Not really a feature, more a way to get another word into the
>marketing text.
>
>
>andy

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 18:29:37 2013
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:29:41 +0100
From: Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill 
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Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
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Am 19.02.2013 18:31, schrieb info@riversonicstudios.com:
> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now running my main mix
> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will have to get a decent
> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in digitally from the KORG KRONOS via
> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out analog is the main culprit.
>
> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when running through ABLETON LIVE and
> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the obvious solution to this problem?
Whether you're coming out analogue or digital doesn't play a role 
really, that you're going through the computer is.

Things that mainly affect latency (assuming that your os is not anything 
to be negotiated):
1. The audio interface's chipset for connecting to the computer (the 
communication interface)
2. The communication interface in the computer (chipset, driver)
3. The communication interface itself
4. The computer (OS) configuration
5. The computer driver for the audio interface
6. Your processing stream (within the DAW)
7. The distance from the speaker to your ears

Things that do not affect latency:
a) the speed of the computer (this only affects how much you can load 
your CPU with the DAW for a given latency setting)
b) the transfer rate of your communication interface (FW800 does not 
automatically give lower latency than FW400).

ad 1: this comes from the audio interface manufacturer. Some use COTS 
chipsets, some (e.g. RME) use their own.
ad 2: this is part of the computer, and for Windows machines, is a huge 
hassle to find a good combination (but also a good way to really improve 
this, if you're hand-assembling your computer).
ad 3: proprietary interfaces which directly connect to e.g. PCIe do 
outperform standard interfaces (USB, FW). Again, RME comes to mind with 
HDSPe.
ad 4: disable drivers and background services you don't need.
ad 5: again, comes from the audio interface manufacturer.
ad 6: if you have a compressor with look-ahead in your processing chain, 
this will increase latency. Everything increases it, some things only 
minimally. Try and find out...
ad 7: instead of sitting 5 metres away from your monitor speaker, wear 
headphones. Latency reduced by about 17ms.

Note that (6) and (7) is not included in the dialogue for configuring 
your drivers! Meaning that if you have your displayed latency down to, 
say, 2ms either way, the best way to really make an improvement is to 
switch to headphones if you haven't done that already.

Another important thing is that you typically can configure the latency 
for a proper audio interface. There's no free beer in signal theory, 
though: if you reduce the latency, your audio interface driver needs 
more of your "processing power", meaning you can't do as much with your 
DAW effects-and-whatever-wise.

An old article on the subject:
http://moinsound.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/about-latency/


Yours,

             Rainer

--------------020905060309070904000207
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    
Am 19.02.2013 18:31, schrieb
      info@riversonicstudios.com:

    

    

      
However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now running my main mix 
into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will have to get a decent 
audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in digitally from the KORG KRONOS via 
optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out analog is the main culprit.

Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when running through ABLETON LIVE and 
if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the obvious solution to this problem?


    

    Whether you're coming out analogue or digital doesn't play a role
    really, that you're going through the computer is.

    

    Things that mainly affect latency (assuming that your os is not
    anything to be negotiated):

    1. The audio interface's chipset for connecting to the computer (the
    communication interface)

    2. The communication interface in the computer (chipset, driver)

    3. The communication interface itself

    4. The computer (OS) configuration

    5. The computer driver for the audio interface

    6. Your processing stream (within the DAW)

    7. The distance from the speaker to your ears

    

    Things that do not affect latency:

    a) the speed of the computer (this only affects how much you can
    load your CPU with the DAW for a given latency setting)

    b) the transfer rate of your communication interface (FW800 does not
    automatically give lower latency than FW400).

    

    ad 1: this comes from the audio interface manufacturer. Some use
    COTS chipsets, some (e.g. RME) use their own.

    ad 2: this is part of the computer, and for Windows machines, is a
    huge hassle to find a good combination (but also a good way to
    really improve this, if you're hand-assembling your computer).

    ad 3: proprietary interfaces which directly connect to e.g. PCIe do
    outperform standard interfaces (USB, FW). Again, RME comes to mind
    with HDSPe.

    ad 4: disable drivers and background services you don't need.

    ad 5: again, comes from the audio interface manufacturer.

    ad 6: if you have a compressor with look-ahead in your processing
    chain, this will increase latency. Everything increases it, some
    things only minimally. Try and find out...

    ad 7: instead of sitting 5 metres away from your monitor speaker,
    wear headphones. Latency reduced by about 17ms.

    

    Note that (6) and (7) is not included in the dialogue for
    configuring your drivers! Meaning that if you have your displayed
    latency down to, say, 2ms either way, the best way to really make an
    improvement is to switch to headphones if you haven't done that
    already.

    

    Another important thing is that you typically can configure the
    latency for a proper audio interface. There's no free beer in signal
    theory, though: if you reduce the latency, your audio interface
    driver needs more of your "processing power", meaning you can't do
    as much with your DAW effects-and-whatever-wise.

    

    An old article on the subject:

    http://moinsound.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/about-latency/

        

      

    Yours,

    

                Rainer

  


--------------020905060309070904000207--

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Subject: Re: Any decent Midi/USB keyboards these days? (37keys/aftertouch;
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Hi Buzap,

Take a look at Roland/Edirol A-300PRO.
It has 32 keys with channel after touch and lots of other controls.
What is unique you can configure it to send sysex messages with 
automatic checksum generation (!) or even custom MIDI messages.
It can also merge MIDI input data. These functions should work also 
without USB connection.

Regards,
Michał

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From: Rainer Thelonius Balthasar Straschill 
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Subject: Re: Any decent Midi/USB keyboards these days? (37keys/aftertouch;
 Sculpture)
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Am 19.02.2013 11:29, schrieb Philip Conway:
> Doepfer seem to get good reviews.  They're one of the few (perhaps 
> only) companies making dedicated controller keyboards without all the 
> plasticy bells and whistles - just really solid key-beds and nothing 
> else.  Only downside is they're pretty expensive and look like they 
> weigh a ton.
>
+1 on the Doepfer quality. But since when do they have a 37-key model?

             Rainer

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 19 19:26:31 2013
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Hi Michal/Rainer

thanks.
> Take a look at Roland/Edirol A-300PRO.
I've tested it today and compared it to the Arturio 32key "The Factory" Experience. Compared 1:1, the Roland has positively stiffer keys. I have to play around bit more, but it seems too stiff for any good aftertouch. The Arturio looks great, but the keys feel kind of mushy and not soo great. Still, it must be great for aftertouch and expressive playing.
So, with 32 keys, I'm tending towards the Arturio - but I will them a thorough test.

Rainer: Yeah, I've seen Doepfer rather in the 88key department (vs 37).

best regards
Buzap

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 20 15:50:36 2013
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From: info@riversonicstudios.com
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Re: Re: Latency in looping path
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...the problem is Per I need to somehow mute the original signal once the lo=
op starts playing back! thats why everything apart from the sax and vox are =
being rooted through 
Abelton so that the original signal (with at least the drums) can be muted b=
ack into the mix at the very point the loop finishes playing. I do not have =
any midi muting on my Mackie LM3204 ! ..
or would it be possible to mute that copied signal you are talking about at =
the interface via a midi message?... Also if the loop is already leaving the=
 computer with latency surely the copied original signal is not going to be =
in time 
with the loop when one converts back to the original signal?... The more I t=
hink about it the more I suspect I will have to buy a separate hardware loop=
er like the Roland RC-300 or maybe TC Helicon VoiceLOve Touch 2 which has qu=
antise 
looping on board which I have seen syncing with Abelto perfectly! Too bad my=
 current VoiceLive2 doesnt have the quantise feature the new Voice Touch doe=
s though I have been told the Voice Live 3 is imminent!... I was about to ge=
t the Touch 2 but I will wait for the Voice Liove 3 that may well be launche=
d at Frankfurt Messe in a few weeks time. I have tried fiddling with the sam=
ple/latency option in Abletons preferences reducing the buffer size down to =
128 samples which does reduce the latency but increases the odd "digital cli=
ck"! I even tried running the return signal through one of my old Apogee Tra=
ck 2 convertors. Admittedly I have to use a cheep little device that convert=
s the SPDIF into optical to reach the MacBook Pros digital input, hoping tha=
t if the A/D conversion was done by the Apogee it would reduce the latency- =
no such luck! Going in analog or digital doesnt seem to be the culprit.. its=
 as Reiner says: its the crunching going on in the MacBook and Ableton that =
is to blame. BTW I am not running ant fx in Ableton at all: only the Looping=
 plug in. I would use the simple track capture /playback feature but there i=
s no way of having it quantise without giving it a pre determined roll befor=
e it records (1 bar, half a bar, quarter, sixteenths etc). The Looper plugin=
 does the looping in perfect sync.
 
>---- Original Message ----
>From: Per Boysen 
>To: "Loopers-Delight" 
>Sent: Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 5:50 PM
>Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
>
>Yes, of course a decent audio interface helps with the latency issue!
>On the level of interfaces you are mentioning there is also the
>possibility to copy the audio stream coming from your physical mixing
>desk directly to the the audio interface's output without passing the
>software (Ableton Live). This is called "direct monitoring" and has
>zero latency. You don't really need to listen to the mixer desk stuff
>THROUGH Ableton Live do you? What you need form Live is only the
>output of whatever you snag as a loop and maybe effects like reverb
>and delay that you add to your mixing desk stream.
>
>If you run Ableton as a sync master latency in MIDI instruments driven
>by MIDI clips/loops as well as Live's Loopoer plugin should be
>compensated for. If you run Live as a sync slave to something else
>this latency compensation does not work ('cause not even Live can look
>into the future and read your mind) and you need to be carful not to
>use and latency inducing plugins within the session.
>
>Greetings from Sweden
>
>Per Boysen
>www.perboysen.com
>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
>
>On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Antony Hequet  wro=
te:
>> the RME UFX or Fireface or any interface RE has allows a very low latency=

>> because the audio does not have to go thru the MAc before it is sent tot =
he
>> mix or any submix you have, unless you are using the processing within
>> Ableton to enhance your sound sources.
>>
>> Antony Hequet
>>
>> ________________________________
>> De : "info@riversonicstudios.com" 
>> =C3=80 : Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>> Envoy=C3=A9 le : Mardi 19 f=C3=A9vrier 2013 18h31
>> Objet : Latency in looping path
>>
>> Hi Per,
>>
>> Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site for y=
our
>> help.
>>
>> I have sussed the looping OK !
>>
>> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now runni=
ng
>> my main mix
>> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will ha=
ve
>> to get a decent
>> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in
>> digitally from the KORG KRONOS via
>> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out anal=
og
>> is the main culprit.
>>
>> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when
>> running through ABLETON LIVE and
>> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the
>> obvious solution to this problem?
>>
>> Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog
>> mixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin
>> or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of course
>> that the track is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.
>> My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to
>> reroot the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually sen=
d
>> the signal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out of=

>> the alt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.
>>
>> BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the
>> format of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?
>>
>> Thanks! Henry
>>
>>>---- Original Message ----
>>>From: Per Boysen 
>>>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>>Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>>>
>>>On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey 
>>> wrote:
>>>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and use=

>>>> in
>>>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 5--an=
d
>>>> so
>>>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts of t=
he
>>>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a is
>>>> armed
>>>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger Song=

>>>> B's
>>>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the son=
g
>>>> by
>>>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?
>>>
>>>
>>>MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>>>instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>>>MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>>>master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>>>Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>>>rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>>>guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
>>>are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>>>directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>>>command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>>>Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>>>an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>>>This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>>>to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>>>hand mixer knob.
>>>
>>>Greetings from Sweden
>>>
>>>Per Boysen
>>>www.perboysen.com
>>>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>
>>
>>

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 20 16:00:45 2013
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Subject: Re: Re: Latency in looping path
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you say "card"... I am on a MacBook Pro 2112 (thunderbolt/FW800 model) no PC=
Ie here! I have looked at the MOTU 828 Mk3... would get the Apollo but its o=
ver 2 grand! and more than I need right now!
At this point I had better come clean and mention I own and run my own resid=
ential studio and have been in recording land for far too long! Would be gre=
at if I could put my protools Mix5 rig in my pocket as I 
would certainly get zero latency with that! I am just amazed that something =
so simple in these modern times is still beyond the Lap top!... or am I jump=
ing guns here??!!... I hope the TC-helicon VoiceLIve3 is out soon!
Going back to what Reiner kindly posted to me about the issues mainly being =
within the software drivers: this I am not too familiar with. The MacBook Pr=
o I have is the latest model with 16GIG of RAM ! I am not running any 
other programs other than Ableton on it and within Ableto I literally have j=
ust the one audio track up and armed to the Looper plugin within it. Thats i=
t!...

>---- Original Message ----
>From: Daniel Thomas 
>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>Sent: Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 5:41 PM
>Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
>
>You ned a low latency sound card for this work.  Once installed, you can =3D=

>manage your latency values in the Ableton Live's audio preferences pane.
>
>I have had good luck with MOTU 896, 828MK and all of the RE Cards.
>
>Best of luck,
>Daniel
>On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:31 AM, info@riversonicstudios.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Per,
>> 
>> Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site for y=
our help.
>> 
>> I have sussed the looping OK !
>> 
>> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now runni=
ng my main mix
>> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will ha=
ve to get a decent
>> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in dig=
itally from the KORG KRONOS via
>> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out anal=
og is the main culprit.
>> 
>> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when r=
unning through ABLETON LIVE and
>> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the =
obvious solution to this problem?
>> 
>> Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog m=
ixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin
>> or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of course =
that the track is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.
>> My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to re=
root the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually send the=
 signal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out of the a=
lt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.
>> 
>> BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the fo=
rmat of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?
>> 
>> Thanks! Henry
>> 
>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>> From: Per Boysen 
>>> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>> Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey  w=
rote:
>>>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and use=
 in
>>>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 5--an=
d so
>>>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts of t=
he
>>>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a is =
armed
>>>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger Song=
 B's
>>>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the son=
g by
>>>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>>> instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>>> MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>>> master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>>> Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>>> rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>>> guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
>>> are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>>> directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>>> command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>>> Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>>> an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>>> This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>>> to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>>> hand mixer knob.
>>> 
>>> Greetings from Sweden
>>> 
>>> Per Boysen
>>> www.perboysen.com
>>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>

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you say "card"... I am on a MacBook Pro 2112 (thunderbolt/FW800 model) no PC=
Ie here! I have looked at the MOTU 828 Mk3... would get the Apollo but its o=
ver 2 grand! and more than I need right now!
At this point I had better come clean and mention I own and run my own resid=
ential studio and have been in recording land for far too long! Would be gre=
at if I could put my protools Mix5 rig in my pocket as I 
would certainly get zero latency with that! I am just amazed that something =
so simple in these modern times is still beyond the Lap top!... or am I jump=
ing guns here??!!... I hope the TC-helicon VoiceLIve3 is out soon!
Going back to what Reiner kindly posted to me about the issues mainly being =
within the software drivers: this I am not too familiar with. The MacBook Pr=
o I have is the latest model with 16GIG of RAM ! I am not running any 
other programs other than Ableton on it and within Ableto I literally have j=
ust the one audio track up and armed to the Looper plugin within it. Thats i=
t!...

>---- Original Message ----
>From: Daniel Thomas 
>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>Sent: Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 5:41 PM
>Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
>
>You ned a low latency sound card for this work.  Once installed, you can =3D=

>manage your latency values in the Ableton Live's audio preferences pane.
>
>I have had good luck with MOTU 896, 828MK and all of the RE Cards.
>
>Best of luck,
>Daniel
>On Feb 19, 2013, at 9:31 AM, info@riversonicstudios.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Per,
>> 
>> Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site for y=
our help.
>> 
>> I have sussed the looping OK !
>> 
>> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now runni=
ng my main mix
>> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will ha=
ve to get a decent
>> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in dig=
itally from the KORG KRONOS via
>> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out anal=
og is the main culprit.
>> 
>> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when r=
unning through ABLETON LIVE and
>> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be the =
obvious solution to this problem?
>> 
>> Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog m=
ixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin
>> or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of course =
that the track is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.
>> My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to re=
root the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually send the=
 signal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out of the a=
lt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.
>> 
>> BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the fo=
rmat of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?
>> 
>> Thanks! Henry
>> 
>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>> From: Per Boysen 
>>> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>> Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey  w=
rote:
>>>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and use=
 in
>>>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 5--an=
d so
>>>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts of t=
he
>>>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a is =
armed
>>>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger Song=
 B's
>>>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the son=
g by
>>>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>>> instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>>> MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>>> master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>>> Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>>> rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>>> guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
>>> are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>>> directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>>> command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>>> Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>>> an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>>> This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>>> to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>>> hand mixer knob.
>>> 
>>> Greetings from Sweden
>>> 
>>> Per Boysen
>>> www.perboysen.com
>>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>

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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:30:08 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Re: Latency in looping path
From: Per Boysen 
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Hi Anthony,

I see now what you mean, you are mocking up a continuous music bed on
the mixer and then you want to cut in segments of it into a looper so
you can prepare new audio on the mixer to add? Of course the two
streams must be in sync then. I know that at least the RME interfaces
can be MIDI controlled, but I'm not sure how fast a channel mute is
applied in the Fireface Mixer and I have not used that feature myself.
If you could assign the same MIDI event to switch between muted/open
on the RME and for controlling the looper you might have a chance...
but thinking about that gives me bad feeling in my stomach ;-)
Probably it would be better to handle all that routing and muting in
Live. *IF* you are syncing Live you may look into the "MIDI Clopck
Sync Delay" control in its preferences, just to trim the mixer and
Live to run together. But be aware that Live in itself doesn't provide
rock steady timing because it isn't a DAW by design but rather a live
remixing tool (if offering solid timing all the live routing etc in
performance would be too slow for the real world). And MIDI Clock
isn't stable either, because the slaving device has to constantly
speed up or slow down to adjust its tempo.

I revisited the previous posts in this thread and wasn't able to find
out where you are taking the sync master clock from? In case you are
syncing Ableton Live (i.e. running it as a slave following MIDI Clock
or MTC) the entire latency compensation system of Live's doesn't work.
>From this comes that the Looper plugin will also differ in timing
compared to your mixer audio stream and you will experience an un-sexy
bump in timing when muting the original audio to let in the loop. A
solution can be to use a third-party looping plugin like Mobius that
in itself does latency compensation; moving new layers added to the
loop a little bit in time for the first playback round (has to match
the AD/DA latency of the full system, but you can dial in latency
compensation manually by ear in Mobius).

Also, it is not clear what you are meaning when writing
"quantization"? In looping quantization means a given command is to be
applied to the looper at a given point in time after you have actually
pushed the button/pedal. But in a DAW quantization means moving a
recorded audio file playback in time.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 4:50 PM,   wrote:
> ...the problem is Per I need to somehow mute the original signal once the=
 loop starts playing back! thats why everything apart from the sax and vox =
are being rooted through
> Abelton so that the original signal (with at least the drums) can be mute=
d back into the mix at the very point the loop finishes playing. I do not h=
ave any midi muting on my Mackie LM3204 ! ..
> or would it be possible to mute that copied signal you are talking about =
at the interface via a midi message?... Also if the loop is already leaving=
 the computer with latency surely the copied original signal is not going t=
o be in time
> with the loop when one converts back to the original signal?... The more =
I think about it the more I suspect I will have to buy a separate hardware =
looper like the Roland RC-300 or maybe TC Helicon VoiceLOve Touch 2 which h=
as quantise
> looping on board which I have seen syncing with Abelto perfectly! Too bad=
 my current VoiceLive2 doesnt have the quantise feature the new Voice Touch=
 does though I have been told the Voice Live 3 is imminent!... I was about =
to get the Touch 2 but I will wait for the Voice Liove 3 that may well be l=
aunched at Frankfurt Messe in a few weeks time. I have tried fiddling with =
the sample/latency option in Abletons preferences reducing the buffer size =
down to 128 samples which does reduce the latency but increases the odd "di=
gital click"! I even tried running the return signal through one of my old =
Apogee Track 2 convertors. Admittedly I have to use a cheep little device t=
hat converts the SPDIF into optical to reach the MacBook Pros digital input=
, hoping that if the A/D conversion was done by the Apogee it would reduce =
the latency- no such luck! Going in analog or digital doesnt seem to be the=
 culprit.. its as Reiner says: its the crunching going on in the MacBook an=
d Ableton that is to blame. BTW I am not running ant fx in Ableton at all: =
only the Looping plug in. I would use the simple track capture /playback fe=
ature but there is no way of having it quantise without giving it a pre det=
ermined roll before it records (1 bar, half a bar, quarter, sixteenths etc)=
. The Looper plugin does the looping in perfect sync.
>
>>---- Original Message ----
>>From: Per Boysen 
>>To: "Loopers-Delight" 
>>Sent: Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 5:50 PM
>>Subject: Re: Latency in looping path
>>
>>Yes, of course a decent audio interface helps with the latency issue!
>>On the level of interfaces you are mentioning there is also the
>>possibility to copy the audio stream coming from your physical mixing
>>desk directly to the the audio interface's output without passing the
>>software (Ableton Live). This is called "direct monitoring" and has
>>zero latency. You don't really need to listen to the mixer desk stuff
>>THROUGH Ableton Live do you? What you need form Live is only the
>>output of whatever you snag as a loop and maybe effects like reverb
>>and delay that you add to your mixing desk stream.
>>
>>If you run Ableton as a sync master latency in MIDI instruments driven
>>by MIDI clips/loops as well as Live's Loopoer plugin should be
>>compensated for. If you run Live as a sync slave to something else
>>this latency compensation does not work ('cause not even Live can look
>>into the future and read your mind) and you need to be carful not to
>>use and latency inducing plugins within the session.
>>
>>Greetings from Sweden
>>
>>Per Boysen
>>www.perboysen.com
>>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Antony Hequet  w=
rote:
>>> the RME UFX or Fireface or any interface RE has allows a very low laten=
cy
>>> because the audio does not have to go thru the MAc before it is sent to=
t he
>>> mix or any submix you have, unless you are using the processing within
>>> Ableton to enhance your sound sources.
>>>
>>> Antony Hequet
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> De : "info@riversonicstudios.com" 
>>> =C3=80 : Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>> Envoy=C3=A9 le : Mardi 19 f=C3=A9vrier 2013 18h31
>>> Objet : Latency in looping path
>>>
>>> Hi Per,
>>>
>>> Thought Id get back to you to thank you and your frieds on the site for=
 your
>>> help.
>>>
>>> I have sussed the looping OK !
>>>
>>> However I now have another problem: progressive latency as I am now run=
ning
>>> my main mix
>>> into Ableton LIVE before it reaches the the audience! I suspect I will =
have
>>> to get a decent
>>> audio interface rather than using the MacPros I/O Have tried going in
>>> digitally from the KORG KRONOS via
>>> optical into the Mac- makes no difference. I suspect that coming out an=
alog
>>> is the main culprit.
>>>
>>> Anyway I was just wondering how any of you guys avoid this latency when
>>> running through ABLETON LIVE and
>>> if a Firewire 800 unit like the MOTU 828 Mk" or the RME 800 would be th=
e
>>> obvious solution to this problem?
>>>
>>> Audio path: I run all my synths/external drums from a bus on the analog
>>> mixer into a track on Ableton either using its LOOPER plugin
>>> or its straight forward auto input record function making sure of cours=
e
>>> that the track is muted once the loop plays back in either instance.
>>> My mixer has a ":' alternate bus rooting fortunately that allows me to
>>> reroot the returned signal from Ableton avoiding feedback: I actually s=
end
>>> the signal via the main bus out on the mixer and reroot the return out =
of
>>> the alt3/4 bus which feeds the P.A.
>>>
>>> BTW please forgive my rude interuption but I dont quite understand the
>>> format of your forum yet!.. as I understand it its all via email no?
>>>
>>> Thanks! Henry
>>>
>>>>---- Original Message ----
>>>>From: Per Boysen 
>>>>To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
>>>>Sent: Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Still More Live Questions
>>>>
>>>>On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Jeff Shirkey 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Let's say I have 15 scenes in a Live Set that I want to call up and u=
se
>>>>> in
>>>>> different songs. Song A might use scene 1. Song B might use scene 5--=
and
>>>>> so
>>>>> on.  Maybe Song B will use two scenes--one each in different parts of=
 the
>>>>> song. There is no way to program my MIDI controller so that scene a i=
s
>>>>> armed
>>>>> when I hit song A's preset, correct? And there's no way to trigger So=
ng
>>>>> B's
>>>>> different scenes on a per-preset basis --or as I need them-- in the s=
ong
>>>>> by
>>>>> doing that programming in advance in my MIDI controller--or is there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>MIDI PC is not good with Live, you should use simple MIDI notes
>>>>instead for launching scenes. To launch a scene in Live you learn the
>>>>MIDI Note (a CC might work too) to the corresponding slot on the
>>>>master output's column in the Session View. You can even use a MIDI
>>>>Note that are part of what your controller is sending to your guitar
>>>>rack when calling up a song, letting that event trigger both the
>>>>guitar rack stuff and launching the scene in Live. And note that there
>>>>are two options for controlling scens in Live; you may launch a scene
>>>>directly or you may select the scene (to be launched by the next
>>>>command). Oh, there is actually a third way (that I used myself with
>>>>Live for a concert once) and that is to learn the MIDI note event to
>>>>an empty scene preceding the actual scen that will start the song.
>>>>This approach also needs that you assign Live's "trigger next" button
>>>>to a pedal. At the gig I had this assigned both to a foot switch and a
>>>>hand mixer knob.
>>>>
>>>>Greetings from Sweden
>>>>
>>>>Per Boysen
>>>>www.perboysen.com
>>>>http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

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Subject: Listen to Galactic Travels
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GALACTIC TRAVELS ON WDIY:                   http://galactictravels.info
=======================================================================
Tonight at 11 pm EST/GMT-5 on Galactic Travels, I'll continue the
month-long Special Focus on Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured
CD at Midnight will be "Excession" on Bogus Focus Records.  The Special
Focus page is at:
http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show that
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and
Bethlehem, 93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville
and Trexlertown, on the internet, and in High Definition Radio at 88.1
FM.  Listen at http://wdiy.org on the internet.

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Subject: Listen to Thought Radio
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THOUGHT RADIO
http://soundscapes.us/thoughtradio

My next stint on Thought Radio, the Saturday edition of The AM/FM Show, 
will be Saturday, February 23 at 6 am EST/GMT-5.  In Phase One, I will 
continue the special on Sequences Electronic Music Magazine's sampler CDs.

I host the show about every other week. When I am at the helm, the show 
features electronic, ambient, and spacemusic at the beginning, an 
eclectic mix of genres in the middle, and winds up with Progressive Rock.

Tune in at 91.7 FM or on the internet at 
http://muhlenberg.edu/wmuh/stream.html

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Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 07:29:47 -0500
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Subject: Thought Radio Playlist for February 23, 2013.
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http://soundscapes.us/thoughtradio/playlists/2013/130223.html

The Saturday edition of The AM/FM Show has alternating hosts.  When I am
at the helm, the show is called Thought Radio and you can expect 
to hear
electronic, ambient, spacemusic, Progressive Rock, and an eclectic mix
of other genres.  The show airs from 6:00 am to 8:00 am EST/GMT-5 on
WMUH Allentown, 91.7 FM and on the internet.  I also host Afterglow
every Thursday from 8:00 am to 9:30 am.
http://soundscapes.us/afterglow/index.html

Show #243 February 23, 2013.

Phase I/Space:

ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
VA [HGFortune +      Tomorrow Dies        Doomsday and Brimstone (Sound
   InnerDreamer]                             for Good)
VA [Mooch]           Blade Runner         Sequences No. 22
VA [Char-el]         Aurora               Sequences No. 22
Paul Lawler and      Improvisation 2      Jam Sessions Volume 1
   Paul Nagle


Phase II/Eclectic:

ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
Jill Haley           Sunflower Cantilena  Zion and Bryce Canyon
                                             Soundscapes (none)
Jill Haley           Cerulean Sky         Zion and Bryce Canyon
                                             Soundscapes (none)
Jeff Pearce          Into Spring          In the Season of Fading Light
                                             (Jeff Pearce Music)
Laura Sullivan       Blessed              Love's River (Sentient Spirit)
Ciro Hurtado         Spring in the Hills  Los Angeles Blues (Inti)


Phase III/Progressive Rock:

ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
Cristiano Roversi    Falling              AntiQua (Gonzo)
Billy Sherwood       Particle             The Fusion Syndicate (Purple
                        Accelerations        Pyramid)
Marbin               Volta                Last Chapter of Dreaming
                                             (Moonjune)
41 Point 9           Surface Tension      Still Looking for the Answers
                                             (Progrock)
Spock's Beard        The Quiet House      X (none)
Alan Morse           Cold Fusion *        Four O'clock and Hysteria
                                             (InsideOut)

  * = excerpt
++ = Advanced CDR from artist
VA = Various Artists (compilation)

On the next show, I will continue the special on the sampler CDRs that
come with each issue of Sequences electronic music magazine.

Bill Fox
========================================================================
Host of Thought Radio, the Saturday edition of The AM/FM Show every
other Saturday at 6:00 am EST/GMT-5.
Phase 1: Electronic, ambient, and space music.
Phase 2: Mixed bag of acoustic, electric, pop, or New Age.
Phase 3: Progressive rock from past masters to contemporary releases.
Website - http://soundscapes.us/thoughtradio
Listen to WMUH Allentown locally at 91.7 FM or on-line at
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/wmuh/stream.html

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Mon Feb 25 13:31:05 2013
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Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:30:59 -0500
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Subject: Galactic Travels Playlist #829 for February 21, 2013.
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http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/130221.html

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show, that
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem,
PA, 93.9 FM in Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville
and Trexlertown, and webcasting on the internet.  WDIY also broadcasts
in Digital HD at 88.1 FM.

Show #829 February 21, 2013.

WDIY Playlist:
http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels?playlist_date=02-21-2013

RECAP:
On this show, I continued the month-long focus on Joint Intelligence
Committee.  The Featured CD at Midnight was "Excession" on Bogus Focus
Records.http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb


PLAYLIST:

11:04 pm
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
Kevin Braheny        Starflight 1 *       Galaxies (Hearts of Space)
Genetique            Part 1               The Soundscapes Concert Series
                                             #19 (Fox's Den)
Bryon Carrigan       Into Light           Windows (Peonies)
Aejotz               Dear Mary            Aejotz (none)
Andrew J. Rankin     October 20           Doomsday and Brimstone (Sound
                                             for Good)
Arcane               House on the Barren  A Tale of Unease (Paul Lawler
                        Hill                 Music)
Steve Roach          Soul Tones *         Soul Tones (Timeroom Editions)
JIC                  Newquay Nightmare    Excession (Bogus Focus)


12:00 am
ARTIST               TRACK                ALBUM (label)
==================== ==================== ==============================
JIC                  A Momentary Lapse    Excession (Bogus Focus)
                        of Tea and Cakes
JIC                  Deodoodletastic      Excession (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  'ermless             Excession (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Danfango             Excession (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Groodle              Excession (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Blime E              Excession (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Gripple              Excession (Bogus Focus)
JIC                  Bugfluff             Excession (Bogus Focus)


1:00 am

  * = excerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)
++ = Advance CDR from Artist
-- = Background music under interview


NEXT SHOW:
On the next Galactic Travels, I'll conclude the month-long focus on
Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured CD at Midnight will be "Book
of Roach" on Bogus Focus Records.

WDIY Announcement: http://wdiy.org/post/next-galactic-travels-2013-02-28

Bill
========================================================================
Host of Galactic Travels, an electronic, ambient, and space music show,
Thursdays at 11:04 pm EST/GMT-5 on WDIY 88.1 FM in Allentown and
Bethlehem, 93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, and on 93.7 FM in
Trexlertown and Fogelsville.  WDIY also broadcasts in HD Digital Radio
on 88.1 FM.
Galactic Travels web site: http://galactictravels.info
Listen to WDIY at http://wdiy.org/programs/galactic-travels on-line.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 26 16:01:21 2013
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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:01:20 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Echoplex sudden total noise!
From: Gio Gio 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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--00504502bd1cbc76a404d6a2c451
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Hi there,
has anyone experienced something like this before?
I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not sure
if I would venture using it live.
My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes fucks
up and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it does
it sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say loop 1
to loop 3.
Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops
recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..

Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..

thanks !
g.

--00504502bd1cbc76a404d6a2c451
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Hi there,=A0
has anyone experienced something like thi=
s before? =A0
I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this=
 thing and I'm not sure if I would venture using it live.=A0
=
My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes fucks u=
p and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it does =
it sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say lo=
op 1 to loop 3.=A0


Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops r=
ecorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..=A0

=
Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..=A0

<=
/div>

thanks !=A0
g.=A0


--00504502bd1cbc76a404d6a2c451--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 26 16:11:23 2013
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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:11:22 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Echoplex sudden total noise!
From: Per Boysen 
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I had that sudden noise burst in my EDP and got help to track it down
to a defect chip. After I received a new chip and put it in place the
problem never struck again.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Gio Gio  wrote:
> Hi there,
> has anyone experienced something like this before?
> I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not sure
> if I would venture using it live.
> My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes fucks up
> and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it does it
> sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say loop 1 to
> loop 3.
> Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops
> recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..
>
> Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..
>
> thanks !
> g.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 26 16:14:48 2013
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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:14:47 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Echoplex sudden total noise!
From: Gio Gio 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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--047d7bb0424cd90abe04d6a2f449
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hey Per, thanks for your reply.
How did you track down the chip?

thanks
g.


On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Per Boysen  wrote:

> I had that sudden noise burst in my EDP and got help to track it down
> to a defect chip. After I received a new chip and put it in place the
> problem never struck again.
>
> Greetings from Sweden
>
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Gio Gio  wrote:
> > Hi there,
> > has anyone experienced something like this before?
> > I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not
> sure
> > if I would venture using it live.
> > My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes
> fucks up
> > and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it does
> it
> > sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say loop 1
> to
> > loop 3.
> > Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops
> > recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..
> >
> > Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..
> >
> > thanks !
> > g.
>
>

--047d7bb0424cd90abe04d6a2f449
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


hey Per, thanks for your reply.=A0
How did you track d=
own the chip?=A0

thanks=A0
g.=A0


On Tue, F=
eb 26, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> w=
rote:


I had that sudden noise burst in my EDP and =
got help to track it down

to a defect chip. After I received a new chip and put it in place the

problem never struck again.



Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen






On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Gio Gio <bluer.stuff@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi there,

> has anyone experienced something like this before?

> I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm =
not sure

> if I would venture using it live.

> My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes fu=
cks up

> and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it do=
es it

> sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say =
loop 1 to

> loop 3.

> Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops
> recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..

>

> Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..

>

> thanks !

> g.







--047d7bb0424cd90abe04d6a2f449--

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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:18:38 +0100
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I asked the Aurisis guys. But this was about a dozen years ago. Don't
know if there even are spare parts available today.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Gio Gio  wrote:
> hey Per, thanks for your reply.
> How did you track down the chip?
>
> thanks
> g.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Per Boysen  wrote:
>>
>> I had that sudden noise burst in my EDP and got help to track it down
>> to a defect chip. After I received a new chip and put it in place the
>> problem never struck again.
>>
>> Greetings from Sweden
>>
>> Per Boysen
>> www.perboysen.com
>> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Gio Gio  wrote:
>> > Hi there,
>> > has anyone experienced something like this before?
>> > I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not
>> > sure
>> > if I would venture using it live.
>> > My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes
>> > fucks up
>> > and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it does
>> > it
>> > sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say loop 1
>> > to
>> > loop 3.
>> > Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops
>> > recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..
>> >
>> > Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..
>> >
>> > thanks !
>> > g.
>>
>

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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:31:37 +0100
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: Echoplex sudden total noise!
From: Gio Gio 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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oh shit.. I've been testing it and it's getting only worst.. old loops
reappear out of nowhere even after multiple resets and after turning off
the unit! Usually when simply using the "next loop" + overdub
combination... this happens all the time.. then more sporadically I get
that burst of noise..  :-(



On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Per Boysen  wrote:

> I asked the Aurisis guys. But this was about a dozen years ago. Don't
> know if there even are spare parts available today.
>
> Greetings from Sweden
>
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Gio Gio  wrote:
> > hey Per, thanks for your reply.
> > How did you track down the chip?
> >
> > thanks
> > g.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Per Boysen  wrote:
> >>
> >> I had that sudden noise burst in my EDP and got help to track it down
> >> to a defect chip. After I received a new chip and put it in place the
> >> problem never struck again.
> >>
> >> Greetings from Sweden
> >>
> >> Per Boysen
> >> www.perboysen.com
> >> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Gio Gio  wrote:
> >> > Hi there,
> >> > has anyone experienced something like this before?
> >> > I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not
> >> > sure
> >> > if I would venture using it live.
> >> > My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes
> >> > fucks up
> >> > and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it
> does
> >> > it
> >> > sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say
> loop 1
> >> > to
> >> > loop 3.
> >> > Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops
> >> > recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..
> >> >
> >> > Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..
> >> >
> >> > thanks !
> >> > g.
> >>
> >
>
>

--047d7bb0424c04828004d6a33117
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


oh shit.. I've been testing it and it's getting on=
ly worst.. old loops reappear out of nowhere even after multiple resets and=
 after turning off the unit! Usually when simply using the "next loop&=
quot; + overdub combination... this happens all the time.. then more sporad=
ically I get that burst of noise.. =A0:-(=A0




On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com&=
gt; wrote:


I asked the Aurisis guys. But this was about=
 a dozen years ago. Don't

know if there even are spare parts available today.




Greetings from Sweden



Per Boysen

www.perboysen.com

http://www.y=
outube.com/perboysen






On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:14 =
PM, Gio Gio <bluer.stuff@gmail.=
com> wrote:

> hey Per, thanks for your reply.

> How did you track down the chip?

>

> thanks

> g.

>

>

> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Per Boysen <perboysen@gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>> I had that sudden noise burst in my EDP and got help to track it d=
own

>> to a defect chip. After I received a new chip and put it in place =
the

>> problem never struck again.

>>

>> Greetings from Sweden

>>

>> Per Boysen

>> www.perboys=
en.com

>> htt=
p://www.youtube.com/perboysen

>>

>>

>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Gio Gio <bluer.stuff@gmail.com> wrote:

>> > Hi there,

>> > has anyone experienced something like this before?

>> > I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and=
 I'm not

>> > sure

>> > if I would venture using it live.

>> > My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) som=
etimes

>> > fucks up

>> > and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noti=
ced it does

>> > it

>> > sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let&#=
39;s say loop 1

>> > to

>> > loop 3.

>> > Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as i=
n loops

>> > recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..

>> >

>> > Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..

>> >

>> > thanks !

>> > g.

>>

>







--047d7bb0424c04828004d6a33117--

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 26 16:41:46 2013
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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:41:43 +0100
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Subject: Re: Echoplex sudden total noise!
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Its a known and obscure bug.
First, noise: It happens sometimes when Memory is totally empty. But
rarely. Solution... just record some really long loops and overdubs.
Then reset.
Second recalling old stuff: Make sure you Do a HARD reset, not just reset.
Thats NOT long press of REC, that just resets current loop. Do a long
press of Multipy..that resets ALL loops.

If the noise thing happens still, then its something else. Usual fix
mentioned is re-seating the RAM. That is, take out the RAM and put it
back. Its easy.

Hope this helps!

Mark

Sent from my (advertisement removed)

On 26 Feb 2013, at 17:01, Gio Gio  wrote:

> Hi there,
> has anyone experienced something like this before?
> I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not sure if I would venture using it live.
> My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes fucks up and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I noticed it does it sometimes when working with more loops and jumping from let's say loop 1 to loop 3.
> Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random..
>
> Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..
>
> thanks !
> g.

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 26 16:45:21 2013
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Hi Gio,

Congratulations! few people use the EDP intensively enough to come across this.

I don't think this is what Per found, as
there's the fact that you're hearing sounds that were recorded prior to reset.


It's not a hardware fault, I've had it happen to both my  EDPs simultaneously
in stereo setup.

What's happening when you hear that burst of noise, or seemingly randomised recordings,
is that the EDP is running wild through it's memory.
The harsh noise is what gets put into the memory on boot up, before anything is recorded.

So, it's a bug, the EDP has lost track of it's playback position.
If you let it run, it'll eventually get back to where it should be in memory,
and will play the correct loop!

I never yet managed to find exactly which button sequence triggers this effect
(in Loop 3 in was Record>Insert>Reverse...but that's fixed in Loop4)


Some combination of NextLoop, Overdub and Reverse seems to be involved.

This is what appears to be the issue:

When you combine Reverse and Overdub and then go to another loop
before the EDP has had a chance to update its internal bookkeeping
you're sometimes leaving that loop in a state where the playback
address is incorrect.
So when you go back to that loop it plays from unexpected areas
of memory.

...but I haven't ever been able to reproduce the effect at will,
it happened a lot with one of my compositions, but only if I made a mistake
in the sequence of button presses. ...I never pinpointed what that mistake was.


andy butler
ps. now we want to hear your edp destroying music!


Gio Gio wrote:
> Hi there, 
> has anyone experienced something like this before?  
> I have had quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not 
> sure if I would venture using it live. 
> My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to Loop IV) sometimes 
> fucks up and generates this intense wall of noise kinda thing.. I 
> noticed it does it sometimes when working with more loops and jumping 
> from let's say loop 1 to loop 3. 
> Other times it recalls sounds from the previous session, as in loops 
> recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty random.. 
> 
> Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever.. 
> 
> thanks ! 
> g. 

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Tue Feb 26 17:20:33 2013
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Subject: Re: Echoplex sudden total noise!
From: Gio Gio 
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Thanks everyone for the very extensive replies, much much appreciated.
I have been doing more testing..
So far I had always experienced this while having the Echoplex receiving
midi sync messages from my laptop. I don't seem to be able to replicate the
problem when the clock is not running.. exactly same settings but not
sending any midi sync messages from the laptop... it seems to never
happen.. it might be a coincidence but I'd be surprised since as soon as I
turn the clock on again and do a couple of tests it happens again..

My unit is set as follows
SYNC:ON
MORE LOOpS: 4
Switch Quant: LOOP
Quantize: OFF

not sure what else might be relevant..

ANd all I am doing right now is:

*1 - HARD RESET *
*2 - record loop 1 *
*3 - next loop + overdub > loop 2*
*4 - over dub something on loop 2*

and back to 1..

after 3 times or so.. bam! an old loop appears when switching from loop1 to
loop2 (usually after a cycle).
it plays for a bit and then if I let in run couple of times.. it switches
to the burst of noise.

So I am not doing anything very particular really. No reverse, no half
speed..

What I find especially weird is that this happened even after switching off
the unit.. zombie loops?

I am gonna try re-seating the RAM now, as Mark suggested.

@andy: hopefully I will be able to share some of this music soon. I am
using the echoplex for a band project with 2 drummers and electronics.
Never done this before..




On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:45 PM, andy butler  wrote:

> Hi Gio,
>
> Congratulations! few people use the EDP intensively enough to come across
> this.
>
> I don't think this is what Per found, as
> there's the fact that you're hearing sounds that were recorded prior to
> reset.
>
>
> It's not a hardware fault, I've had it happen to both my  EDPs
> simultaneously
> in stereo setup.
>
> What's happening when you hear that burst of noise, or seemingly
> randomised recordings,
> is that the EDP is running wild through it's memory.
> The harsh noise is what gets put into the memory on boot up, before
> anything is recorded.
>
> So, it's a bug, the EDP has lost track of it's playback position.
> If you let it run, it'll eventually get back to where it should be in
> memory,
> and will play the correct loop!
>
> I never yet managed to find exactly which button sequence triggers this
> effect
> (in Loop 3 in was Record>Insert>Reverse...but that's fixed in Loop4)
>
>
> Some combination of NextLoop, Overdub and Reverse seems to be involved.
>
> This is what appears to be the issue:
>
> When you combine Reverse and Overdub and then go to another loop
> before the EDP has had a chance to update its internal bookkeeping
> you're sometimes leaving that loop in a state where the playback
> address is incorrect.
> So when you go back to that loop it plays from unexpected areas
> of memory.
>
> ...but I haven't ever been able to reproduce the effect at will,
> it happened a lot with one of my compositions, but only if I made a mistake
> in the sequence of button presses. ...I never pinpointed what that mistake
> was.
>
>
> andy butler
> ps. now we want to hear your edp destroying music!
>
>
>
> Gio Gio wrote:
>
>> Hi there, has anyone experienced something like this before?  I have had
>> quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not sure if I would
>> venture using it live. My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to
>> Loop IV) sometimes fucks up and generates this intense wall of noise kinda
>> thing.. I noticed it does it sometimes when working with more loops and
>> jumping from let's say loop 1 to loop 3. Other times it recalls sounds from
>> the previous session, as in loops recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty
>> random..
>> Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..
>> thanks ! g.
>>
>
>

--20cf30363f51fb177d04d6a3df3c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Thanks everyone for the very extensive replies, much much =
appreciated.=A0
I have been doing more testing..=A0
So far I =
had always experienced this while having the Echoplex receiving midi sync m=
essages from my laptop. I don't seem to be able to replicate the proble=
m when the clock is not running.. exactly same settings but not sending any=
 midi sync messages from the laptop... it seems to never happen.. it might =
be a coincidence but I'd be surprised since as soon as I turn the clock=
 on again and do a couple of tests it happens again..=A0



My unit is set as follows
SYNC:ON
M=
ORE LOOpS: 4
Switch Quant: LOOP=A0
Quantize: OFF
<=
div>
not sure what else might be relevant..=A0



ANd all I am doing right now is:=A0

=
1 - HARD RESET=A0
2 - record=A0loop 1=A0
=
3 - next loop + overdub > loop 2
4 - over dub somet=
hing on loop 2



and back to 1..=A0

after 3 tim=
es or so.. bam! an old loop appears when switching from loop1 to loop2 (usu=
ally after a cycle).=A0
it plays for a bit and then if I let in r=
un couple of times.. it switches to the burst of noise.=A0



So I am not doing anything very particular really. No r=
everse, no half speed..=A0

What I find especially =
weird is that this happened even after switching off the unit.. zombie loop=
s?=A0



I am gonna try=A0re-seating the RAM now, as Mark suggested.=
=A0



@andy: hopefully I will be able to share some of this music s=
oon. I am using the echoplex for a band project with 2 drummers and electro=
nics. Never done this before..=A0






On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:45 PM, andy butler <=
akbutler@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:


Hi Gio,



Congratulations! few people use the EDP intensively enough to come across t=
his.



I don't think this is what Per found, as

there's the fact that you're hearing sounds that were recorded prio=
r to reset.





It's not a hardware fault, I've had it happen to both my =A0EDPs si=
multaneously

in stereo setup.



What's happening when you hear that burst of noise, or seemingly random=
ised recordings,

is that the EDP is running wild through it's memory.

The harsh noise is what gets put into the memory on boot up, before anythin=
g is recorded.



So, it's a bug, the EDP has lost track of it's playback position.
If you let it run, it'll eventually get back to where it should be in m=
emory,

and will play the correct loop!



I never yet managed to find exactly which button sequence triggers this eff=
ect

(in Loop 3 in was Record>Insert>Reverse...but that's fixed in Loo=
p4)





Some combination of NextLoop, Overdub and Reverse seems to be involved.



This is what appears to be the issue:



When you combine Reverse and Overdub and then go to another loop

before the EDP has had a chance to update its internal bookkeeping

you're sometimes leaving that loop in a state where the playback

address is incorrect.

So when you go back to that loop it plays from unexpected areas

of memory.



...but I haven't ever been able to reproduce the effect at will,

it happened a lot with one of my compositions, but only if I made a mistake=


in the sequence of button presses. ...I never pinpointed what that mistake =
was.





andy butler

ps. now we want to hear your edp destroying music!






Gio Gio wrote:



Hi there, has anyone experienced something like this before? =A0I have had =
quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not sure if I wo=
uld venture using it live. My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to=
 Loop IV) sometimes fucks up and generates this intense wall of noise kinda=
 thing.. I noticed it does it sometimes when working with more loops and ju=
mping from let's say loop 1 to loop 3. Other times it recalls sounds fr=
om the previous session, as in loops recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty=
 random.. 


Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever.. 

thanks ! g. 









--20cf30363f51fb177d04d6a3df3c--

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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 18:55:55 +0100
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Subject: Re: Echoplex sudden total noise!
From: Gio Gio 
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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re-seating the RAM didn't help.. but again, I can't replicate the problem
when the clock is not running.


On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Gio Gio  wrote:

> Thanks everyone for the very extensive replies, much much appreciated.
> I have been doing more testing..
> So far I had always experienced this while having the Echoplex receiving
> midi sync messages from my laptop. I don't seem to be able to replicate the
> problem when the clock is not running.. exactly same settings but not
> sending any midi sync messages from the laptop... it seems to never
> happen.. it might be a coincidence but I'd be surprised since as soon as I
> turn the clock on again and do a couple of tests it happens again..
>
> My unit is set as follows
> SYNC:ON
> MORE LOOpS: 4
> Switch Quant: LOOP
> Quantize: OFF
>
> not sure what else might be relevant..
>
> ANd all I am doing right now is:
>
> *1 - HARD RESET *
> *2 - record loop 1 *
> *3 - next loop + overdub > loop 2*
> *4 - over dub something on loop 2*
>
> and back to 1..
>
> after 3 times or so.. bam! an old loop appears when switching from loop1
> to loop2 (usually after a cycle).
> it plays for a bit and then if I let in run couple of times.. it switches
> to the burst of noise.
>
> So I am not doing anything very particular really. No reverse, no half
> speed..
>
> What I find especially weird is that this happened even after switching
> off the unit.. zombie loops?
>
> I am gonna try re-seating the RAM now, as Mark suggested.
>
> @andy: hopefully I will be able to share some of this music soon. I am
> using the echoplex for a band project with 2 drummers and electronics.
> Never done this before..
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:45 PM, andy butler wrote:
>
>> Hi Gio,
>>
>> Congratulations! few people use the EDP intensively enough to come across
>> this.
>>
>> I don't think this is what Per found, as
>> there's the fact that you're hearing sounds that were recorded prior to
>> reset.
>>
>>
>> It's not a hardware fault, I've had it happen to both my  EDPs
>> simultaneously
>> in stereo setup.
>>
>> What's happening when you hear that burst of noise, or seemingly
>> randomised recordings,
>> is that the EDP is running wild through it's memory.
>> The harsh noise is what gets put into the memory on boot up, before
>> anything is recorded.
>>
>> So, it's a bug, the EDP has lost track of it's playback position.
>> If you let it run, it'll eventually get back to where it should be in
>> memory,
>> and will play the correct loop!
>>
>> I never yet managed to find exactly which button sequence triggers this
>> effect
>> (in Loop 3 in was Record>Insert>Reverse...but that's fixed in Loop4)
>>
>>
>> Some combination of NextLoop, Overdub and Reverse seems to be involved.
>>
>> This is what appears to be the issue:
>>
>> When you combine Reverse and Overdub and then go to another loop
>> before the EDP has had a chance to update its internal bookkeeping
>> you're sometimes leaving that loop in a state where the playback
>> address is incorrect.
>> So when you go back to that loop it plays from unexpected areas
>> of memory.
>>
>> ...but I haven't ever been able to reproduce the effect at will,
>> it happened a lot with one of my compositions, but only if I made a
>> mistake
>> in the sequence of button presses. ...I never pinpointed what that
>> mistake was.
>>
>>
>> andy butler
>> ps. now we want to hear your edp destroying music!
>>
>>
>>
>> Gio Gio wrote:
>>
>>> Hi there, has anyone experienced something like this before?  I have had
>>> quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not sure if I would
>>> venture using it live. My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to
>>> Loop IV) sometimes fucks up and generates this intense wall of noise kinda
>>> thing.. I noticed it does it sometimes when working with more loops and
>>> jumping from let's say loop 1 to loop 3. Other times it recalls sounds from
>>> the previous session, as in loops recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty
>>> random..
>>> Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever..
>>> thanks ! g.
>>>
>>
>>
>

--20cf3074d7fc846b8904d6a45e0c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


re-seating the RAM didn't help.. but again, I can't=A0replicate the problem when the clock is not running=
.




On Tue, Feb 2=
6, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Gio Gio <bluer.stuff@gmail.com> wrot=
e:


Thanks everyone for the ver=
y extensive replies, much much appreciated.=A0
I have been doing more t=
esting..=A0


So far I had always experienced this while having the Echoplex receivi=
ng midi sync messages from my laptop. I don't seem to be able to replic=
ate the problem when the clock is not running.. exactly same settings but n=
ot sending any midi sync messages from the laptop... it seems to never happ=
en.. it might be a coincidence but I'd be surprised since as soon as I =
turn the clock on again and do a couple of tests it happens again..=A0



My unit is set as follows
SYNC:ON
M=
ORE LOOpS: 4
Switch Quant: LOOP=A0
Quantize: OFF
<=
div>
not sure what else might be relevant..=A0




ANd all I am doing right now is:=A0

=
1 - HARD RESET=A0
2 - record=A0loop 1=A0
=
3 - next loop + overdub > loop 2
4 - over dub somet=
hing on loop 2




and back to 1..=A0

after 3 tim=
es or so.. bam! an old loop appears when switching from loop1 to loop2 (usu=
ally after a cycle).=A0
it plays for a bit and then if I let in r=
un couple of times.. it switches to the burst of noise.=A0




So I am not doing anything very particular really. No r=
everse, no half speed..=A0

What I find especially =
weird is that this happened even after switching off the unit.. zombie loop=
s?=A0




I am gonna try=A0re-seating the RAM now, as Mark suggested.=A0<=
/div>



@andy: hopefully I will be able to share some of this music soon. I am u=
sing the echoplex for a band project with 2 drummers and electronics. Never=
 done this before..=A0







On Tue, Feb =
26, 2013 at 5:45 PM, andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:



Hi Gio,



Congratulations! few people use the EDP intensively enough to come across t=
his.



I don't think this is what Per found, as

there's the fact that you're hearing sounds that were recorded prio=
r to reset.





It's not a hardware fault, I've had it happen to both my =A0EDPs si=
multaneously

in stereo setup.



What's happening when you hear that burst of noise, or seemingly random=
ised recordings,

is that the EDP is running wild through it's memory.

The harsh noise is what gets put into the memory on boot up, before anythin=
g is recorded.



So, it's a bug, the EDP has lost track of it's playback position.
If you let it run, it'll eventually get back to where it should be in m=
emory,

and will play the correct loop!



I never yet managed to find exactly which button sequence triggers this eff=
ect

(in Loop 3 in was Record>Insert>Reverse...but that's fixed in Loo=
p4)





Some combination of NextLoop, Overdub and Reverse seems to be involved.



This is what appears to be the issue:



When you combine Reverse and Overdub and then go to another loop

before the EDP has had a chance to update its internal bookkeeping

you're sometimes leaving that loop in a state where the playback

address is incorrect.

So when you go back to that loop it plays from unexpected areas

of memory.



...but I haven't ever been able to reproduce the effect at will,

it happened a lot with one of my compositions, but only if I made a mistake=


in the sequence of button presses. ...I never pinpointed what that mistake =
was.





andy butler

ps. now we want to hear your edp destroying music!






Gio Gio wrote:



Hi there, has anyone experienced something like this before? =A0I have had =
quite a few glitches since I bought this thing and I'm not sure if I wo=
uld venture using it live. My echoplex (original model from 94 - updated to=
 Loop IV) sometimes fucks up and generates this intense wall of noise kinda=
 thing.. I noticed it does it sometimes when working with more loops and ju=
mping from let's say loop 1 to loop 3. Other times it recalls sounds fr=
om the previous session, as in loops recorded BEFORE resetting it... pretty=
 random.. 



Just wandering if anyone has had similar problems ever.. 

thanks ! g. 












--20cf3074d7fc846b8904d6a45e0c--

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Gio Gio wrote:
> re-seating the RAM didn't help.. but again, I can't replicate the 
> problem when the clock is not running.
> 


>My unit is set as follows
>SYNC:ON
>MORE LOOpS: 4
>Switch Quant: LOOP 
>Quantize: OFF

>not sure what else might be relevant.. 

>ANd all I am doing right now is: 

>1 - HARD RESET 
>2 - record loop 1 
>3 - next loop + overdub > loop 2
>4 - over dub something on loop 2

>and back to 1.. 

So the midi sync must be influencing the timing.

You could try with SwitchQuant:Off

You could also try taking the tempo of the clock down just
a fraction after setting the loop lengths.
(if host supports that).

If you're using Ableton Live, you could try a host with better clocking.

...but those are just things that *I* would try, don't know if they'll 
make a difference.


You're not sending the EDP commands from the laptop are you?


Zombie loops makes sense, although I thought that a hard reset would fill
the memory with noise. 


andy






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Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:12:59 +0100
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Subject: Re: Echoplex sudden total noise!
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Thanks for the suggestions Andy.
I am sending commands from the laptop generally, but not now, I was testing
the EDP sending only midi clock from the laptop and pressing buttons
manually.
But it has def. something to do with the midi clock cause it only seems to
happen while receiving the clock.
It doesn't seem to happen if I run the clock, record the first loop, then
stop the clock.. etc.
So yeah it seems like the clock is messing with it. Still though, HARD
RESET is definitely not doing his job cause I get all this old loops in
that should have been deleted... no matter how the midi clock is messing
with the other functions.

--20cf30363f5125fa5904d6a572ac
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Thanks for the suggestions Andy.=A0
I am sending=
 commands from the laptop generally, but not now, I was testing the EDP sen=
ding only midi clock from the laptop and pressing buttons manually.=A0
=
But it has def. something to do with the midi clock cause it only seems to =
happen while receiving the clock.=A0


It doesn't seem to happen if I run the clock, record the first loo=
p, then stop the clock.. etc.=A0
So yeah it seems like the clock =
is messing with it. Still though, HARD RESET is definitely not doing his jo=
b cause I get all this old loops in that should have been deleted... no mat=
ter how the midi clock is messing with the other functions.=A0





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Subject: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
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Upon arrival in Italy for my recent gig, I noticed at the soundcheck that
the guitars onboard switches are clicking in the audio... something else
had changed too, cant quite say if the guitar had become a bit microphonic,
but there seems to be something, just not quite right.

Now it could be that something happened on the journey, but more likely its
my installation of a Deusenberger Multibender. When I took off the old
bridge, the cable for earthing the stuff to the fingers was just a loose
thing hanging out and touching vaguely the old bridge, I installed the new
bridge and did the same thing, but.. is that normal? And could dodgy
shielding cause a switch to "click" in the audio path?

MArk

-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--14dae9cdcc7595bde304d6b5e69f
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Upon arrival in Italy for my recent gig, I noticed at the =
soundcheck that the guitars onboard switches are clicking in the audio... s=
omething else had changed too, cant quite say if the guitar had become a bi=
t microphonic, but there seems to be something, just not quite right.



Now it could be that something happened on the journey, but =
more likely its my installation of a Deusenberger Multibender. When I took =
off the old bridge, the cable for earthing the stuff to the fingers was jus=
t a loose thing hanging out and touching vaguely the old bridge, I installe=
d the new bridge and did the same thing, but.. is that normal? And could do=
dgy shielding cause a switch to "click" in the audio path?






--14dae9cdcc7595bde304d6b5e69f--

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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:09:12 +0100
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Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
From: Per Boysen 
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Make sure the earthing cable is in contact with the bridge or other
metal hardware that are connected with the strings and see if not the
problem doesn't go away. I am quite clumsy with tools and soldering
(or rather too bored and eager about getting back into "playing mode")
so I have had a lot of these issues. One Ukelele I bought new buzzed
like hell and when needing it for a recording I tried to fix a
"earthing" by fastening one end of a shielded cable in the guitar
cable's earth node and gaffer tape the other end to my right hand, and
this caused the buzz to go away. The Uke has nylon strings and wooded
bridge so the lacking earth must be a design flaw. On electric guitars
it is so much easier to fix. On Strats I secure the earth cable with
one of the rear side springs where it fits into the whammy block, this
makes all strings and bridge "active". Make sure the metal hardware
that you are constantly touching are connected to the earth!

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:50 PM, mark francombe  wrote:
> Upon arrival in Italy for my recent gig, I noticed at the soundcheck that
> the guitars onboard switches are clicking in the audio... something else had
> changed too, cant quite say if the guitar had become a bit microphonic, but
> there seems to be something, just not quite right.
>
> Now it could be that something happened on the journey, but more likely its
> my installation of a Deusenberger Multibender. When I took off the old
> bridge, the cable for earthing the stuff to the fingers was just a loose
> thing hanging out and touching vaguely the old bridge, I installed the new
> bridge and did the same thing, but.. is that normal? And could dodgy
> shielding cause a switch to "click" in the audio path?
>
> MArk
>
> --
> Mark Francombe
> www.markfrancombe.com
> www.ordoabkhao.com
> http://vimeo.com/user825094
> http://www.looop.no
> twitter @markfrancombe
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 27 17:14:32 2013
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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:40:23 +0100
From: van Sinn 
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Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
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Yup, I agree, nonfuntional grounding/shielding can do the most amazing things.
Apart from makig sure the bridge grounding wire is actually connected to the 
bridge, check all solder points.

And while at it, if your electronics cavity isn't alrady shielded, do it.
Use self-adhesive copper tape, which can be bought in any guitar shop or from 
StewMac et al.., or conductive paint, which can be bought fairly inexpensive 
from ebay - don't buy it in a hobby or electronics store as the small bottles 
they sell won't last enough for a guitar and are way too expensive.
Make sure a ground wire is connected to the copper/paint and that the cover 
lid is shielded too, and has contact to the copper/paint in the cavity ;)

/van


Per Boysen wrote:
> Make sure the earthing cable is in contact with the bridge or other
> metal hardware that are connected with the strings and see if not the
> problem doesn't go away. I am quite clumsy with tools and soldering
> (or rather too bored and eager about getting back into "playing mode")
> so I have had a lot of these issues. One Ukelele I bought new buzzed
> like hell and when needing it for a recording I tried to fix a
> "earthing" by fastening one end of a shielded cable in the guitar
> cable's earth node and gaffer tape the other end to my right hand, and
> this caused the buzz to go away. The Uke has nylon strings and wooded
> bridge so the lacking earth must be a design flaw. On electric guitars
> it is so much easier to fix. On Strats I secure the earth cable with
> one of the rear side springs where it fits into the whammy block, this
> makes all strings and bridge "active". Make sure the metal hardware
> that you are constantly touching are connected to the earth!
> 
> Greetings from Sweden
> 
> Per Boysen
> www.perboysen.com
> http://www.youtube.com/perboysen
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:50 PM, mark francombe  wrote:
> 
>>Upon arrival in Italy for my recent gig, I noticed at the soundcheck that
>>the guitars onboard switches are clicking in the audio... something else had
>>changed too, cant quite say if the guitar had become a bit microphonic, but
>>there seems to be something, just not quite right.
>>
>>Now it could be that something happened on the journey, but more likely its
>>my installation of a Deusenberger Multibender. When I took off the old
>>bridge, the cable for earthing the stuff to the fingers was just a loose
>>thing hanging out and touching vaguely the old bridge, I installed the new
>>bridge and did the same thing, but.. is that normal? And could dodgy
>>shielding cause a switch to "click" in the audio path?
>>
>>MArk
>>
>>--
>>Mark Francombe
>>www.markfrancombe.com
>>www.ordoabkhao.com
>>http://vimeo.com/user825094
>>http://www.looop.no
>>twitter @markfrancombe
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
> 
> 
> 


-- 
rgds,
van Sinn

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 27 17:20:25 2013
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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:20:34 -0500
From: Douglas Baldwin 
Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
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Mark - That ground/earth wire should be FIRMLY attached to the bridge, and to the ground/earth point in the guitar's electronics cavity. Switch clicks usually come from some bit of ghost voltage that discharges into the signal. A poor or weak ground/earth wire could certainly cause such a problem. Mucrophonics would probably be a different problem. Sounds like you could use a checkup with a good electronics-savvy repair person. Good luck!

Douglas Baldwin
Alpha Coyote
coyotelk@optonline.net
www.TheCoyote.org
www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Baldwin

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mark francombe 
  To: loopers-delight 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:50 AM
  Subject: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...


  Upon arrival in Italy for my recent gig, I noticed at the soundcheck that the guitars onboard switches are clicking in the audio... something else had changed too, cant quite say if the guitar had become a bit microphonic, but there seems to be something, just not quite right.


  Now it could be that something happened on the journey, but more likely its my installation of a Deusenberger Multibender. When I took off the old bridge, the cable for earthing the stuff to the fingers was just a loose thing hanging out and touching vaguely the old bridge, I installed the new bridge and did the same thing, but.. is that normal? And could dodgy shielding cause a switch to "click" in the audio path?


  MArk



  -- 
  Mark Francombe
  www.markfrancombe.com
  www.ordoabkhao.com
  http://vimeo.com/user825094
  http://www.looop.no
  twitter @markfrancombe
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--Boundary_(ID_pvt3xuyr0/OkTc7F9V0B2Q)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT









Mark - That ground/earth wire should be FIRMLY attached to the bridge, and 
to the ground/earth point in the guitar's electronics cavity. Switch clicks 
usually come from some bit of ghost voltage that discharges into the signal. A 
poor or weak ground/earth wire could certainly cause such a problem. 
Mucrophonics would probably be a different problem. Sounds like you could use a 
checkup with a good electronics-savvy repair person. Good luck!



 


"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production 
deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. 
-- Frank Zappa 


 



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  
  
  
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:50 
  AM

  
Subject: OT:Clicky switches and maybe 
  microphonic guitar...

  


  
Upon arrival in Italy for my recent gig, I noticed at the 
  soundcheck that the guitars onboard switches are clicking in the audio... 
  something else had changed too, cant quite say if the guitar had become a bit 
  microphonic, but there seems to be something, just not quite right.
  


  
Now it could be that something happened on the journey, but more likely 
  its my installation of a Deusenberger Multibender. When I took off the old 
  bridge, the cable for earthing the stuff to the fingers was just a loose thing 
  hanging out and touching vaguely the old bridge, I installed the new bridge 
  and did the same thing, but.. is that normal? And could dodgy shielding cause 
  a switch to "click" in the audio path?

  


  


--Boundary_(ID_pvt3xuyr0/OkTc7F9V0B2Q)--

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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 18:40:38 +0100
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Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
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On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:40 PM, van Sinn  wrote:
> And while at it, if your electronics cavity isn't alrady shielded, do it.
> Use self-adhesive copper tape,

Great advice! I have to do that to my Strat; If I'm playing anything
rhythmical and happens to touch the pickguard with my right pinky some
kind of voltage builds up and causes a "light zipper noise maracca"
sound in the output audio.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Wed Feb 27 17:46:51 2013
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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:46:50 -0800
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Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
From: Kevin Cheli-Colando 
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> kind of voltage builds up and causes a "light zipper noise maracca"
> sound in the output audio.

And you want to get rid of that?

Kevin--
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 18:58:52 +0100
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Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
From: Per Boysen 
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On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Kevin Cheli-Colando
 wrote:
>> kind of voltage builds up and causes a "light zipper noise maracca"
>> sound in the output audio.
>
> And you want to get rid of that?

Yes, Kevin. It doesn't go with the beat my strings are playing up
front but with the rather non musical moves my right hand's pinky
takes back in the dreadful support department.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Per Boysen  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Kevin Cheli-Colando
>  wrote:
>>> kind of voltage builds up and causes a "light zipper noise maracca"
>>> sound in the output audio.
>>
>> And you want to get rid of that?
>
> Yes, Kevin. It doesn't go with the beat my strings are playing up
> front but with the rather non musical moves my right hand's pinky
> takes back in the dreadful support department.
>

I was just kidding really since your description actually sounded intriguing.

Kevin


Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

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I think these were mentioned here earlier but they are almost a
reality at this point

https://www.leapmotion.com/

And $80 is pretty dirt cheap for this kind of thing I think (if it
really works as advertised)

Just think of what you could do with one of these mounted to an instrument.

Kevin

-- 
Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.

- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:40:15 -0600
From: cpr@musetrap.com
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com, Kevin Cheli-Colando
 
Subject: Re: Leap
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Here is something a co-worker has done with the Leap.

Leap Motion Developer Profile: Adam Somers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJeQNOEVr8I

Quoting Kevin Cheli-Colando :

> I think these were mentioned here earlier but they are almost a
> reality at this point
>
> https://www.leapmotion.com/
>
> And $80 is pretty dirt cheap for this kind of thing I think (if it
> really works as advertised)
>
> Just think of what you could do with one of these mounted to an instrument.
>
> Kevin
>
> --
> Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
> form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.
>
> - Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)
>
>

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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:55:44 -0800
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Subject: Re: Leap
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--e89a8f923bd6dbbb7304d6ba282d
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What's unclear to me is if there act as sort of standard human interface
objects (could the [hi] object in max read the output they provide), or if
they require advanced API-fu to work with.

T


On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:40 AM,  wrote:

> Here is something a co-worker has done with the Leap.
>
> Leap Motion Developer Profile: Adam Somers
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=kJeQNOEVr8I
>
>
> Quoting Kevin Cheli-Colando :
>
>  I think these were mentioned here earlier but they are almost a
>> reality at this point
>>
>> https://www.leapmotion.com/
>>
>> And $80 is pretty dirt cheap for this kind of thing I think (if it
>> really works as advertised)
>>
>> Just think of what you could do with one of these mounted to an
>> instrument.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> --
>> Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a
>> form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.
>>
>> - Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)
>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
http://toaster.bandcamp.com

--e89a8f923bd6dbbb7304d6ba282d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What's unclear to me is if there act as sort of standard human interfac=
e objects (could the [hi] object in max read the output they provide), or i=
f they require advanced API-fu to work with.=A0

T




On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:40 =
AM,  <cpr@musetrap.com> wrote:

Here is something a co-worker has done with the Leap.



Leap Motion Developer Profile: Adam Somers

=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DkJeQNOEVr8I




Quoting Kevin Cheli-Colando <billowhead@gmail.com>:





I think these were mentioned here earlier but they are almost a

reality at this point



https://www.leapm=
otion.com/



And $80 is pretty dirt cheap for this kind of thing I think (if it

really works as advertised)



Just think of what you could do with one of these mounted to an instrument.=




Kevin



--

Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and to have a

form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of all trouble.<=
br>


- Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)













-- 
=
http://toaster.ba=
ndcamp.com



--e89a8f923bd6dbbb7304d6ba282d--

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------030101000803040406000101
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I just sent them an email asking them about its interactivity with Max.
We'll see what they say.

JC Mendizabal
Black Note Music
http://www.blacknotemusic.com
http://soundcloud.com/kyron
http://soundcloud.com/rfcl
https://soundcloud.com/prospero2013

Other Sites
http://rfcl.tumblr.com/
http://www.radiofreeclearlight.com
http://maddogmagick.blogspot.com/
http://secretsareeverywhere.blogspot.com/


On 2/27/2013 11:55 AM, Todd Elliott wrote:
> What's unclear to me is if there act as sort of standard human 
> interface objects (could the [hi] object in max read the output they 
> provide), or if they require advanced API-fu to work with.
>
> T
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:40 AM,  > wrote:
>
>     Here is something a co-worker has done with the Leap.
>
>     Leap Motion Developer Profile: Adam Somers
>     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJeQNOEVr8I
>
>
>     Quoting Kevin Cheli-Colando      >:
>
>         I think these were mentioned here earlier but they are almost a
>         reality at this point
>
>         https://www.leapmotion.com/
>
>         And $80 is pretty dirt cheap for this kind of thing I think (if it
>         really works as advertised)
>
>         Just think of what you could do with one of these mounted to
>         an instrument.
>
>         Kevin
>
>         --
>         Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the body and
>         to have a
>         form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root cause of
>         all trouble.
>
>         - Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> http://toaster.bandcamp.com

--------------030101000803040406000101
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


  
    
  
  
    I just sent them an email asking them about its interactivity with
    Max.

    We'll see what they say.

    
JC Mendizabal
Black Note Music
http://www.blacknotemusic.com
http://soundcloud.com/kyron
http://soundcloud.com/rfcl
https://soundcloud.com/prospero2013

Other Sites
http://rfcl.tumblr.com/
http://www.radiofreeclearlight.com
http://maddogmagick.blogspot.com/
http://secretsareeverywhere.blogspot.com/

    

    On 2/27/2013 11:55 AM, Todd Elliott wrote:
    
What's unclear to me is if there act as sort of
      standard human interface objects (could the [hi] object in max
      read the output they provide), or if they require advanced API-fu
      to work with. 
      


      

      
T

      


        


          
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:40 AM, <cpr@musetrap.com>
            wrote:

            

              Here is something a co-worker has done with the Leap.

              

              Leap Motion Developer Profile: Adam Somers

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJeQNOEVr8I
              

                


                  

                  Quoting Kevin Cheli-Colando <billowhead@gmail.com>:

                  

                  

                    I think these were mentioned here earlier but they
                    are almost a

                    reality at this point

                    

                    https://www.leapmotion.com/

                    

                    And $80 is pretty dirt cheap for this kind of thing
                    I think (if it

                    really works as advertised)

                    

                    Just think of what you could do with one of these
                    mounted to an instrument.

                    

                    Kevin

                    

                    --

                    Till now you seriously considered yourself to be the
                    body and to have a

                    form. That is the primal ignorance which is the root
                    cause of all trouble.

                    

                    - Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950)

                    

                    

                  

                  

                

              

            

          

          

          

          


          

          -- 

          http://toaster.bandcamp.com
        

      

    

  


--------------030101000803040406000101--

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van Sinn wrote:

> Use self-adhesive copper tape, which can be bought in any guitar shop or 
> from StewMac et al.., 

or from a garden center ( it's also used to guard against slugs )
it'll be cheaper

andy

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Masayuki Akamatsu has created a Max object for the Leap
 
Cycling74 thread about the Leap
 
also look at this controller
 
 


From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb 28 07:39:33 2013
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 Also FWIW the launch date is the week of May 13 fo=
r the preorders
and will go onsale thru BestBuy May 19.
 
On 02/27/13, rdwfour@verizon.net wrote:
&=
nbsp;


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Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
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Per Boysen wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Kevin Cheli-Colando
>  wrote:
> 
>>>kind of voltage builds up and causes a "light zipper noise maracca"
>>>sound in the output audio.
>>
>>And you want to get rid of that?
> 
> 
> Yes, Kevin. It doesn't go with the beat my strings are playing up
> front but with the rather non musical moves my right hand's pinky
> takes back in the dreadful support department.

That's purely because your pinky isn't in-sync with the beat.
You seriously need to train that pinky with la cucarraca maracca ;)

-- 
rgds,
van Sinn

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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:00:17 +0100
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Subject: Re: OT:Clicky switches and maybe microphonic guitar...
From: Per Boysen 
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On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:37 PM, van Sinn  wrote:
> That's purely because your pinky isn't in-sync with the beat.
> You seriously need to train that pinky with la cucarraca maracca ;)


Hm... yes, maybe that is more fun than struggling with silencing the
static voltage built-up in the guitar. "Learning a new instrument"...
why not?

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:40:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Luis Angulo 
Subject: AW: Re: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming (funky african root styles)
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com, Rick Walker 
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---1480336445-1466020912-1362076839=:77702
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Certaibly back american styles like funk have that =0Abut check out also  t=
he old raw dancing "chang=FCi" style in cuba which dates back to the 1800s=
=0A=0AThe "guayo" or scraper is always a bit behind the beat ,thats what ma=
kes it so funky=0A=0AI also love how the tres guitar starts on the "3 and" =
giving u an ilusion of starting on the one=0AAnd the percusion always  come=
s with a fill on the "2 and" =0AIs great that it still exists=0A=0Ahttp://m=
.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj06Kv0MP2dU=0A=0AHeres a documentary of it=0A=0Ahttp=
://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=3Drelmfu&v=3D9sbDW2xFgbQ=0A=0ACheers =0ALuis
---1480336445-1466020912-1362076839=:77702
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Certaibly back american styles like funk =
have that 
but check out also  the old raw dancing "chang=FCi" style i=
n cuba which dates back to the 1800s

The "guayo" or scraper is a=
lways a bit behind the beat ,thats what makes it so funky

I also=
 love how the tres guitar starts on the "3 and" giving u an ilusion of star=
ting on the one
And the percusion always  comes with a fill on the "2 =
and" 
Is great that it still exists

http://m.youtube.com/wa=
tch?v=3Dj06Kv0MP2dU

Heres a documentary of it

http://=
m.youtube.com/watch?feature=3Drelmfu&v=3D9sbDW2xFgbQ

Cheers 
Luis
            
=0A        =
        
=0A                    
=0A                    
=0A         =
               =0A                        =
    
=0A                            =0A                   =
             From:=0A             =
               =0A                            mark francombe <markfr=
ancombe@gmail.com>;                            
=0A                  =
          =0A                                To:=0A                            =0A                    =
        Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com>;                           =
                          
=0A                            =0A        =
                        Cc:=0A    =
                        =0A                            LOOPERS DELIGHT =
(posting) <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>;                     =
                                                        
=0A            =
                =0A                                Subject:=0A                            =0A         =
                   Re: Re: Rhythm Intensive and Rhythmic Programming       =
                     
=0A                            =0A             =
                   Sent:=0A       =
                     =0A                            Tue, Feb 5, 2013 11=
:00:52 AM                            
=0A                            =0A                            
=0A                            =0A                     =
           =0A                                    =0A           =
                             Now thats what Im talking about!



On Tue, Fe=
b 5, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Rick Walker <looppool@cruzio.com> wrote:
=0A=0A
On 2/4/2013 10:31 PM, mark francombe wrote:
=0A=0AYou guys are amazing! I have a small request, =
Can Rick sometime at his
=0Aleisure pick up one (or two) of his weird et=
hnic drum things, and drag
=0Athem across the yard to Bills garage, just=
 about the same time as Bill
=0Astarts one of his slippy slidey loopy so=
los?
=0A
=0Aa vid with both bro's... Nice...
=0A
=
=0A
=0AThat can happen, though Bill and I have really busy schedules lat=
ely and are not playing
=0Atogether very much these days. =A0We're j=
ust doing really different things, musically these
=0Adays but =A0I'=
m sure it will happen in the future.
=0A
=0AIn the meantime, =A0go he=
re to see the two of us improvising in a live looping duo situation
=0Aa=
t a gig where we opened for Argentina's amazing Juana Molina.
=0A=0AThese are full song clips from Bill project, New Delta =A0where we play=
 music that is originally
=0Ainspired by musics from the Nile , =A0Missi=
ssippi , =A0Ganges and Yangtze Deltas.
=0A
=0Awww.yout=
ube.com/billwalkersnewdelta
=0A
=0Athanks for the request,=
 =A0Mark
=0A
=0ARick W=
alker
=0A
=0A


<=
div>
-- 
mark francombe
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordo=
abkhao.com
=0A=0Atwitter @markfrancombe
http://vimeo.com/user8250=
94
http://www.looop.no=0A
=0A=0A                              =
      =0A                                =0A                  =
          =0A                    
=0A                
=0A=
            
=0A
---1480336445-1466020912-1362076839=:77702--

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Subject: Trento gig recording and pics
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--047d7b6da95a9535c004d6cf9748
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IM not FBing this cos there too many people to ask if its OK (there are
whispers of an edit, a remix and a release ha ha)

http://www.markfrancombe.com/wordpress/trento-gig-report/

BUT heres my page regarding my show in Italy last week (I play so rarely
now, every gig gets a whole page on my blog!)

Theres pics, and audio! No video tho... there rumours of 3 minutes of
iPhone somewhere...

The whole gig recorded thru the desk, so a bit of funky mix... almost no
bass (He was going thru a Mesa Boogie thing).
Everything is improvised, except:
The samples are actually sound tracks to video we were showing, of my wife
singing some old Norsk Folk songs...
And 2 drum loops in Abelton Live... operated by my tech guy, who was also
doing the video projections.

All the glitching electronic stuff is me...using 2 EDPs a EF303, kaos quad.

I was accompanied by 3 fantastic Italian musicians on Fretless Bass, Treble
Sax (is that whats its called.. the straight one) and  guy playing a VERY
old Swedish Instrument, called (correct me here Per) a Nikkelharpe, whichs
is a violin with keys! He also played West Indian Steel drums, and those
african things, you know... them wotsits with the metal strips on a wooden
box... hate them myself, boring, but he made VERY good use of them...
Kalinka, or Kalimba.. I dunno.. some ethnic hippy thing.

Somehow the mix of electronics and live acoustic sounds worked pretty
well...

Enjoy...

-- 
*Mark Francombe*
www.markfrancombe.com
www.ordoabkhao.com
http://vimeo.com/user825094
http://www.looop.no
twitter @markfrancombe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/

--047d7b6da95a9535c004d6cf9748
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IM not FBing this cos there too many people to ask if its =
OK (there are whispers of an edit, a remix and a release ha ha)


BUT heres my page regarding my show in Italy last=
 week (I play so rarely now, every gig gets a whole page on my blog!)=A0

Theres pics, and audio! No video tho... there rumour=
s of 3 minutes of iPhone somewhere...



The whole gig recorded thru the desk, so a bit of funky mix... almost n=
o bass (He was going thru a Mesa Boogie thing).
Everything =
is improvised, except:
The samples are=A0actually=A0sound t=
racks to video we were showing, of my wife singing some old Norsk Folk song=
s...



And 2 drum loops in Abelton Live... operated by my tech guy, who=
 was also doing the video projections.

All the glitching electronic stuff is me...using 2 EDPs a EF303, kaos quad=
.




I was accompanied by 3 fantastic Italian mu=
sicians on Fretless Bass, Treble Sax (is that whats its called.. the=A0stra=
ight=A0one) and =A0guy playing a VERY old Swedish Instrument, called (corre=
ct me here Per) a Nikkelharpe, whichs is a violin with keys! He also played=
 West Indian Steel drums, and those african things, you know... them wotsit=
s with the metal strips on a wooden box... hate them myself, boring, but he=
 made VERY good use of them... Kalinka, or Kalimba.. I dunno.. some ethnic =
hippy thing.




Somehow the mix of electronics and li=
ve acoustic sounds worked pretty well...

Enjoy...


--047d7b6da95a9535c004d6cf9748--

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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:49:50 -0500
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Subject: Listen to Galactic Travels
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GALACTIC TRAVELS ON WDIY
http://galactictravels.info

Tonight at 11 pm EST/GMT-5 on Galactic Travels, I'll conclude the 
month-long Special Focus on Joint Intelligence Committee.  The Featured 
CD at Midnight will be "Book of Roach" on Bogus Focus Records.  The 
Special Focus page is at:
http://soundscapes.us/gt/playlists/2013/focus.html#feb

Galactic Travels is an electronic, ambient, and space music show that 
airs each Thursday at 11:04 pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem, 
93.9 FM in Easton and Phillipsburg, 93.7 FM in Fogelsville and 
Trexlertown, on the internet, and in High Definition Radio at 88.1 FM.  
Listen at http://wdiy.org on the internet.

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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:52:08 -0500
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Subject: Re: Trento gig recording and pics
From: Jeff Duke 
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--20cf300512fefb40c004d6cfe65d
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Wonderful Mark!! Listening now. Really happy for you my friend!

J

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:29 PM, mark francombe wrote:

> IM not FBing this cos there too many people to ask if its OK (there are
> whispers of an edit, a remix and a release ha ha)
>
> http://www.markfrancombe.com/wordpress/trento-gig-report/
>
> BUT heres my page regarding my show in Italy last week (I play so rarely
> now, every gig gets a whole page on my blog!)
>
> Theres pics, and audio! No video tho... there rumours of 3 minutes of
> iPhone somewhere...
>
> The whole gig recorded thru the desk, so a bit of funky mix... almost no
> bass (He was going thru a Mesa Boogie thing).
> Everything is improvised, except:
> The samples are actually sound tracks to video we were showing, of my wife
> singing some old Norsk Folk songs...
> And 2 drum loops in Abelton Live... operated by my tech guy, who was also
> doing the video projections.
>
> All the glitching electronic stuff is me...using 2 EDPs a EF303, kaos quad.
>
> I was accompanied by 3 fantastic Italian musicians on Fretless Bass,
> Treble Sax (is that whats its called.. the straight one) and  guy playing a
> VERY old Swedish Instrument, called (correct me here Per) a Nikkelharpe,
> whichs is a violin with keys! He also played West Indian Steel drums, and
> those african things, you know... them wotsits with the metal strips on a
> wooden box... hate them myself, boring, but he made VERY good use of
> them... Kalinka, or Kalimba.. I dunno.. some ethnic hippy thing.
>
> Somehow the mix of electronics and live acoustic sounds worked pretty
> well...
>
> Enjoy...
>
> --
> *Mark Francombe*
> www.markfrancombe.com
> www.ordoabkhao.com
> http://vimeo.com/user825094
> http://www.looop.no
> twitter @markfrancombe
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/24478662@N00/
>

--20cf300512fefb40c004d6cfe65d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Wonderful Mark!! Listening now. Really happy for you my friend!

J
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:29 PM, mark franc=
ombe <mark@markfrancombe.com> wrote:


IM not FBing this cos there=
 too many people to ask if its OK (there are whispers of an edit, a remix a=
nd a release ha ha)



BUT heres my page regarding my show in Italy last=
 week (I play so rarely now, every gig gets a whole page on my blog!)=A0

Theres pics, and audio! No video tho... there rumour=
s of 3 minutes of iPhone somewhere...




The whole gig recorded thru the desk, so a bit of funky mix... almost n=
o bass (He was going thru a Mesa Boogie thing).
Everything is imp=
rovised, except:
The samples are=A0actually=A0sound tracks to vid=
eo we were showing, of my wife singing some old Norsk Folk songs...




And 2 drum loops in Abelton Live... operated by my tech guy, who was a=
lso doing the video projections.

All the glitching=
 electronic stuff is me...using 2 EDPs a EF303, kaos quad.




I was accompanied by 3 fantastic Italian musicians on F=
retless Bass, Treble Sax (is that whats its called.. the=A0straight=A0one) =
and =A0guy playing a VERY old Swedish Instrument, called (correct me here P=
er) a Nikkelharpe, whichs is a violin with keys! He also played West Indian=
 Steel drums, and those african things, you know... them wotsits with the m=
etal strips on a wooden box... hate them myself, boring, but he made VERY g=
ood use of them... Kalinka, or Kalimba.. I dunno.. some ethnic hippy thing.=






Somehow the mix of electronics and live acoustic =
sounds worked pretty well...

Enjoy...





--20cf300512fefb40c004d6cfe65d--

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On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:29 PM, mark francombe  wrote:
> and  guy playing a VERY old Swedish Instrument, called (correct me here Per)
> a Nikkelharpe,

"Nyckelharpa" that is. A relative to the Hurdy-Gurdy and the infamous
Norwegian Hardangerfela. Enjoying the recording here now. Thanks!

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen

From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com  Thu Feb 28 22:27:10 2013
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On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:29 PM, mark francombe  wrote:
> Treble Sax (is that whats its called.. the straight one)

Must be the Soprano Sax - nothing sound cool like one of those! Lovely
instrument (buy me one!). And they should IMHO be played like this guy
does, "aetherically flowing" rather than "screaming" vouvouzela-like.
Sounds like a great gig, Mark. Sounds like someone is treating a cello
too, maybe that's you bowing the bari gutiar? Or the nizer-harpenz...
EDP-isms beeping on nicely, LOL-this is rather ORB-ish, awesome! Big
hand. Kick drum ok, obviously didn't share the bass' sad faith.

Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
www.perboysen.com
http://www.youtube.com/perboysen