Improvising vs. composing

The = Straschill Family Group=20 - www.straschill.de

Clean Trippin' - www.dpeg.de

Eclectic Blah - www.eblah.de

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C3E8A2.8DE1FE50-- From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 04:42:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i119ciO05708; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 04:38:44 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 04:38:44 -0500 Old-Return-Path: Message-ID: <008d01c3e8a3$1e7e68e0$0207a8c0@Stephen> From: "Steve Goodman" To: References: <00ba01c3e807$e0a76df0$b6705643@elfmaster> Subject: Re: The 100-Megabit Guitar in WIRED Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 09:09:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40612 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "RemyC" To: "Loopers Delight" Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 14:38 PM Subject: The 100-Megabit Guitar in WIRED > Wired magazine > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.01/guitar.html > > The mercurial CEO of Gibson Guitar Corporation wants to shove Ethernet up > your ax and rock the music world. > > Issue 12.01 - January 2004 > > The 100-Megabit Guitar > Gibson's maverick CEO wants to shove Ethernet up your ax and rock the music > world. > By Greg Milner > Dubbed the "Les Paul," the > instrument would become the primary source of rock's power-chord crunch, a > legacy that stretches from Jimmy Page and Neil Young through Aerosmith's Joe > Perry and Guns N' Roses' Slash. The guitar's noise-canceling humbucker > pickups provided a clarity that helped Jerry Garcia sculpt his solos when he > wasn't playing custom guitars. I believe Jerry was mostly playing custom guitars, especially the Warlock. But you more dead-headed amongst us could say with more authority than I. I'm just fairly sure it wasn't the Les Paul he played most the time... > Since Guns N' Roses imploded > in the mid-'90s, no Les Paul player has commanded the cross-genre visibility > of Slash in his heyday. Since when did Slash have "cross-genre visibility", or for that matter much of a catalog? Is this PR or what? > Metallica's Kirk Hammett and Weezer's Rivers Cuomo, > both Les Paul players, don't have Slash's following or showmanship. I guess the writer was one of those unfortunate Drunks n' Posers fans. [shaking head] Or he's working for Gibson and is desperate to fill an article. > It won't be easy. For starters, the Magic guitar's Ethernet output is > incompatible with traditional guitar gear. No amplifier or effects pedal on > the market today works with the instrument. For now, musicians will need to > plug the guitar into a "breakout box" that converts the digital signal back > to analog; a standard guitar cable plugs into the box's output. Second, > guitars that work with the digital world via MIDI, the universal language of > musical instruments, do exist. Guitarists like Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood > already make all kinds of digitally enhanced noise onstage. The CEO of one > rival company told me, "If you can figure out what Henry is trying to do, > let me know." And Peter Swiadon, a product manager for the Roland > Corporation, says, "No disrespect to Henry, but Magic looks like a solution > in search of a problem." Or just another whiz-bang invention for the guitar. I mean, Les Paul's innovations are legendary and to be respected -- but he made a lot of little experiments that weren't exactly successful too. Hell, EDISON experimented with trying to communicate with the dead, for Pete's sake... > The magic about Magic is portability. Greenwood may have a digital world at > his fingertips, but his guitar still delivers an analog signal, requiring > mediating devices to make it digital. The goal of the Magic guitar is to be > fully plug-and-play, so a musician can simply jack it into a PC - no USB > cables or external devices necessary." Can you say, "$2000 sound card"? Sure you can. Here's the wind up... ...and the pitch! > The Magic guitar, Juszkiewicz says, takes the next > step - it doesn't just preserve sound, it improves it. > Gibson appears to have solved a problem that has dogged digital instrument > design for years. It's not enough to engineer a digital-audio converter and > a delivery system that can reproduce sound with sufficient nuance. The > technology also has to make sure the bits become audible with little delay. None would be nice. Oh wait. We've already GOT that. But in the non-original, er, analog world, it's the delays that are the main problem with guit synths, every time I hear someone complaining about 'em. > Magic can deliver sound a few thousand > meters in microseconds, and because all devices connected by the technology > run on the same clock, the data remains synchronous. Hm, 100Mb/sec... that's up to 1200 feet or so with nothing but a wire, otherwise one needs signal boost, if not also routing... and a 'few thousand meters' is certainly much longer than that. If conventional non-fibre repeaters are to be used, what would be the delays involved then? I smell a theoretical topology somewhere... > Magic, an acronym for media-accelerated global information carrier, can > direct the flow of up to 64 channels of information, all on one Ethernet > network. Once again, a 'few thousand meters' on an Ethernet network ain't just NICs in computers, a server, cable and connectors, and software to make it all work. And what is the max capacity of a standard Cat-5 cable anyway? Cumulative degeneration could occur as well, if the network is overloaded. I've a feeling the PR guys writing this don't know what that even means. There's going to have to be fibre and ultra-fast repeaters/routers for something this big to even approach realtime. > In a concert hall, this means a bulky analog snake of cables could > be replaced by a single Cat-5. It also means real-time collaboration. > Stanford staged a concert last fall that linked several musicians at > different locations who improvised with each other over a system developed > by NetworkSound, the first company to build a business plan around Magic. Anyone have a link to this, before I start searching? > Juszkiewicz had > lawsuits filed against companies he thought were infringing on Gibson's > trademark. Among his targets: Heritage Guitar, which was founded by > ex-employees of a Gibson factory in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Gibson didn't win > any of the suits that made it to trial (after settling the Heritage suit, > Juszkiewicz sued his own lawyers), but the litigation proved to be part of a > hard-line strategy that put the company back on the map. A strategy that proved irresistable for a drove of doomed software companies like the late Ashton-Tate: Buy companies producing possibly-competing product, nab their technology, and drive them into the ground via court and lawyer costs; no matter what the cases are actually about, what they do is assimilate technology not otherwise developed, eliminate the competition, and eventually overload the management capacity of the now-bloated company, which ultimately can't even produce the original cash-cow that made it big. End run, the company sells off its subsidiaries, or sells out entirely, with big, fat cash rewards for the CEO and whatever members of the board that didn't piss him/her off. > Certainly, Gibson owes its turnaround in part to good timing. The first half > of the '80s was not a fertile period for the type of rock associated with > the Les Paul. The '70s hard-rock heroes, like Joe Perry and Jimmy Page, were > either in rehab or on hiatus. Synth-driven music owned the charts. But soon > after Juszkiewicz took over, Guns N' Roses emerged, first as the second > coming of Aerosmith and then as the biggest band on the planet. Slash was a > devoted Les Paul player. Once again, the world sounded like the Les Paul. No, just Guns N' Roses. (How many hits, what, uh, three? Then oblivion within years.) > Juszkiewicz has been less successful in his mission to expand Gibson beyond > guitars. Trace Elliott amps, Opcode Systems (a music software company), and > Steinberger Sound are a few of his acquisitions. None have made Gibson any > money; some have gone out of business and others have borne the brunt of > Juszkiewicz's litigious streak. See above. > A Yamaha exec jokes, "Sometimes the best we > can hope for our competitors is that they get bought by Gibson." Other > rivals dismiss Juszkiewicz as a threat, referring to him as a "psycho" and a > "wack-job." In person, he is laid-back and laconic, exactly the disposition > you'd expect from someone who sells guitars for a living. So when he told > me, "Oh yeah, I'm very frightening," I assumed he was kidding. My mistake. > "No, seriously, I'm like a prophet. I always get put down, and then later, > people realize I'm right." Is it just an MBA that makes one think like this? Well, crack or amphetamine abuse too, but hey! I don't generally diss developments in ANYTHING that have a real need to fill. But this isn't exactly like the VHS format, though, is it? I'd like to strip away the PR crapola and see what it really is, before completely dumping on it. But man, this article belongs more in the Yahoo PR Newswire than "Wired". Unless they've slipped that much! Steve Goodman * EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 05:49:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11AlSq16854; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 05:47:28 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 05:47:28 -0500 Old-Return-Path: User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.6 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 04:01:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing From: Are-Jay Hoffmann To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3158452885_142975_MIME_Part" Resent-Message-ID: <0YcUo.A.OHE.AlNHAB@hemlock.violacea.com> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40613 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3158452885_142975_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable on 1/31/04 10:30 PM, Dan Soltzberg at d.ans@rcn.com wrote: Hi gang, Would love to hear people=B9s experiences with this dilemma: I=B9ve been doing a project, Orange, for a couple years. Tonight, I packed my gear out of a rehearsal space and turned in my keys after 3 months of struggling with trying to take this improvisational project and make it mor= e structured=8B i.e., take stuff we=B9d made up and recorded at various shows and sessions and re-learn it and make a bunch of songs out of it. I just found = I wasn=B9t enjoying the process of trying to do this. So it seems I=B9m no longer very interested in writing and playing songs=8B wha= t I really get inspired doing is going out on a limb and making the music up as I go. I can=B9t seem to get the kind of spiritual high I get when I=B9m improvising if I=B9m playing stuff that=B9s pre-structured. Not that I don=B9t like structure=8B I just like creating it on the fly. Problem is, 1. It=B9s kind of intense to go to every show having no idea of what I=B9m going to play, hoping the muse is on the guest list 2. It=B9s hard to bring other musicians in without having at least some structure. Thoughts? Similar experiences? Solutions? Dan personally, i dig both-- but if i had to choose ONE-- id be improv. what i love about playing is reaching so many people, without having to talk to each one individually. same with the players im with. i just love the forehead connection and communication thru eyebrow motions. obviously it comes from a deeper part of us--words always fall short when describing emotion. id say realize every musician is differant and some might want to go your way-- totally mental. some might at least need basic form charts. its always worth the wait, though, right? take care. a looping bassist/violinist are--jay hoffmann --MS_Mac_OE_3158452885_142975_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Improvising vs. composing on 1/31/04 10:30 PM, Dan Soltzberg at d.ans@rcn.com wrote:

Hi gang,

Would love to hear people=B9s experiences with this dilemma:

I=B9ve been doing a project, Orange, for a couple years. Tonight, I packed my= gear out of a rehearsal space and turned in my keys after 3 months of strug= gling with trying to take this improvisational project and make it more stru= ctured=8B i.e., take stuff we=B9d made up and recorded at various shows and sess= ions and re-learn it and make a bunch of songs out of it. I just found I was= n=B9t enjoying the process of trying to do this.

So it seems I=B9m no longer very interested in writing and playing songs=8B wha= t I really get inspired doing is going out on a limb and making the music up= as I go. I can=B9t seem to get the kind of spiritual high I get when I=B9m impr= ovising if I=B9m playing stuff that=B9s pre-structured. Not that I don=B9t like st= ructure=8B I just like creating it on the fly.

Problem is, 1. It=B9s kind of intense to go to every show having no idea of w= hat I=B9m going to play, hoping the muse is on the guest list

2. It=B9s hard to bring other musicians in without having at least some struc= ture.

Thoughts? Similar experiences? Solutions?

Dan

personally, i dig both-- but if i had to choose ONE-- id be improv. what i = love about playing is reaching so many people, without having to talk to eac= h one individually. same with the players im with. i just love the forehead = connection and communication thru eyebrow motions. obviously it comes from a= deeper part of us--words always fall short when describing emotion. id say = realize every musician is differant and some might want to go your way-- tot= ally mental. some might at least need basic form charts. its always worth th= e wait, though, right? take care.

&n= bsp; a looping bassist/violinist

ar= e--jay hoffmann --MS_Mac_OE_3158452885_142975_MIME_Part-- From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 06:25:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11BO2H25973; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:24:02 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:24:02 -0500 Old-Return-Path: User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 12:23:48 +0100 Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing From: Per Boysen To: Loopers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hemlock.violacea.com id i11BO1k25943 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40614 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com On 04-02-01 06.30, "Dan Soltzberg" wrote: > Hi gang, > > > Would love to hear people�s experiences with this dilemma: > > I�ve been doing a project, Orange, for a couple years. Tonight, I packed my > gear out of a rehearsal space and turned in my keys after 3 months of > struggling with trying to take this improvisational project and make it more > structured� i.e., take stuff we�d made up and recorded at various shows and > sessions and re-learn it and make a bunch of songs out of it. I just found I > wasn�t enjoying the process of trying to do this. > > So it seems I�m no longer very interested in writing and playing songs� what > I really get inspired doing is going out on a limb and making the music up > as I go. I can�t seem to get the kind of spiritual high I get when I�m > improvising if I�m playing stuff that�s pre-structured. Not that I don�t > like structure� I just like creating it on the fly. > > Problem is, 1. It�s kind of intense to go to every show having no idea of > what I�m going to play, hoping the muse is on the guest list > > 2. It�s hard to bring other musicians in without having at least some > structure. > > > Thoughts? Similar experiences? Solutions? > > > Dan Hi Dan, My understanding of this is that composition is an act of will power, while improvisation is just an expression of life. Best regards Per Boysen -- Public Music Beta Testing http://www.looproom.com/p2p/ From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 06:44:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11Bf2l30157; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:41:02 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:41:02 -0500 Old-Return-Path: Message-ID: <003801c3e7ef$184745f0$64ddfea9@DAYGLOGREEN> From: "loop.pool" To: Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:40:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3E7AC.09ED1770" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40615 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3E7AC.09ED1770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been doing nothing but pure improvisation for the last four years = of my life in=20 live looping situations and am ready to get down to some rigidly = composed music again. I found inspiration in the famous Shoenberg quote: "All Composition is just very slow Improvisation." and have added it's corollary: "All Imrpovisation is just very fast Composition". What I've found in my life's work is that I tend to oscillate between = the two modes. Early on it became obvious that group improvisations could be a very fertile source for = composition. Obviously this is mitigated by the relative strengths = (and desires) of the musicians one plays with. Other times, purely = composed pieces of music (which frequently have some problems because = other musicians don't always have a way of 'being part' of the process = when you hand out written parts) yield really great results. I have to say that some of the great moments of my life were improvising = with musicians that I just met but I also am in the mood lately to have rigidly controlled and = formalistically composed pieces of music. Consquently, I've been kind of following the loose formula of doing a = live improv CD followed by a formal composed Abstract Electronica CD. = I just broke mildly from this mold by releasing a CD that has both elements in it, though which leads me to believe that it is probably = best to eschew formalized approaches to this dialectic. This is where modern software and hardware technology comes in. On my = last tour, I saved every loop that I loved onto my Repeater (and if only = the EDP had the same kind of saving function that was quick, like the = Repeater). =20 I recently revisited these loops and realize that I have the basis for = several formal compositions using these live loops. I also love to record everything to minidisc because I can import a live = concert into my computer and then=20 cast about to find ideas that are so strong that they can then become = the basis of a formal composition. A lot of loops that I love but haven't found a good compositional home = for , I send to several artists that I love to collaborate with in the = hopes that they may stimulate some collaborative recording. It's the wonderful thing about using loops as a way of making music. = They are fodder for many different kinds of creativity including things = that we don't actually control ourselves. I say.............no all or none.................just use your musical = output in every way you can..........improvisationally or = compositionally. It can all be good!! ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3E7AC.09ED1770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've been doing nothing but pure = improvisation for=20 the last four years of my life in

live looping situations and am ready to = get down to=20 some rigidly composed music again.

I found inspiration in the famous = Shoenberg=20 quote:

"All Composition is just very slow=20 Improvisation."

and have added it's = corollary:

"All Imrpovisation is just very fast=20 Composition".

What I've found in my life's work is = that I tend to=20 oscillate between the two modes. Early on it became

obvious that group improvisations could = be a very=20 fertile source for composition. Obviously this is mitigated = by the=20 relative strengths (and desires) of the musicians one plays with. = Other=20 times, purely composed pieces of music (which frequently have some = problems=20 because other musicians don't always have a way of 'being part' of the = process=20 when you hand out written parts) yield really great = results.

I have to say that some of the great = moments of my=20 life were improvising with musicians that I just met

but I also am in the mood lately to = have rigidly=20 controlled and formalistically composed pieces of music.

Consquently, I've been kind of = following the loose=20 formula of doing a live improv CD followed by a formal composed Abstract = Electronica CD. I just broke mildly from this mold by=20 releasing a CD that has both

elements in it, though which leads me = to believe=20 that it is probably best to eschew formalized approaches to this dialectic.

This is where modern software and = hardware=20 technology comes in. On my last tour, I saved every loop that I = loved onto=20 my Repeater (and if only the EDP had the same kind of saving function = that was=20 quick, like the Repeater).

I recently revisited these loops and = realize that I=20 have the basis for several formal compositions using these live=20 loops.

I also love to record everything to = minidisc=20 because I can import a live concert into my computer and then =

cast about to find ideas that are so = strong that=20 they can then become the basis of a formal composition.

A lot of loops that I love but haven't = found a good=20 compositional home for , I send to several artists that I love to=20 collaborate with in the hopes that they may stimulate some collaborative = recording.

It's the wonderful thing about using = loops as a way=20 of making music. They are fodder for many different kinds of = creativity=20 including things that we don't actually control ourselves.

I say.............no all or=20 none.................just use your musical output in every way you=20 can..........improvisationally or compositionally.

It can all be = good!!

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3E7AC.09ED1770-- From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 07:03:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11C0Jv32259; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:00:19 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:00:19 -0500 Old-Return-Path: User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:00:02 +0100 Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing From: Per Boysen To: Loopers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hemlock.violacea.com id i11C0Ik32235 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40616 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com On 04-02-01 06.30, "Dan Soltzberg" wrote: Sorry for reposting on this topic, but I forgot some details. > Problem is, >1. It�s kind of intense to go to every show having no idea of > what I�m going to play, hoping the muse is on the guest list Right! This is not so different from a gig with pre structured, or composed, music. Uninspired makes dull, always. It's just that a lousy gig with composed music might still sound a bit like "music" to untrained ears. And as an improvising performer it's harder to cheat when you have a bad night. But the more you play the more you also understand that the listeners do not experiencing your music the way you expect them to. In fact you may think that you are having a lousy gig but out there listeners in the audience can find it extremely uplifting. You just can't read others exception while you are playing. When you start out an improvisation you have to understand that you let go of all control. It is indeed a method to put oneself in situations where you loose control and have to rely entirely on instinct. A trick to achieve innovation. > 2. It�s hard to bring other musicians in without having at least some > structure. There are also musicians that take interest in totally improvised music and then there shouldn't be a need for providing structure. I think a more usual problem is to manage to stay away from forming structures when improvising with other musicians. Everyone really have to listen fully all the time and be prepared to throw his own riffs right down the garbage drain if needed. Best regards Per Boysen -- Public Music Beta Testing http://www.looproom.com/p2p/ From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 07:08:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11C7KJ00548; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:07:20 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:07:20 -0500 Old-Return-Path: User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:07:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing From: Per Boysen To: Loopers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40617 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com On 04-02-01 13.00, "Per Boysen" wrote: Sorry for the bad spellings in my recent post. Too interesting topic, couldn't keep typing slow-and-safe... ;-) per From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 07:32:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11CVlm04041; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:31:47 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:31:47 -0500 Old-Return-Path: Message-ID: <00a601c3e8a4$45cfe940$0207a8c0@Stephen> From: "Steve Goodman" To: References: Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 09:17:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <09cXd.A.A_.zGPHAB@hemlock.violacea.com> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40618 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Improvising vs. composingDan Soltzberg asked: >I've been doing a project, Orange, for a couple years. Tonight, I packed my gear out of a rehearsal space and turned in my keys after 3 months of struggling with trying to take this improvisational project and make it more structured- i.e., take stuff we'd made up and recorded at various shows and sessions and re-learn it and make a bunch of songs out of it. I just found I wasn't enjoying the process of trying to do this.< Perhaps it's not the song-writing but the compositing process that you're not enjoying. Try another project. Maybe the material will be easier for you to work with. I wouldn't just paste the entire process as something you don't like if it's one job that makes one think this. Um, forgive, no coffee yet. >So it seems I'm no longer very interested in writing and playing songs- what I really get inspired doing is going out on a limb and making the music up as I go. I can't seem to get the kind of spiritual high I get when I'm improvising if I'm playing stuff that's pre-structured. Not that I don't like structure- I just like creating it on the fly. < I concur with Mr. Tobenfield on his other points and won't repeat 'em. I didn't quit being a support person because one of the jobs I did (Hughes! Ugh!) was a Hell-on-Earth. I just went somewhere else to do my thing. So perhaps it's the project you're weary with, not the process itself. Try something else, or perhaps put the instrument down for a week, and then pick it up and see what happens. Things change upon new perspective. Don't give up for a single excuse. Steve Goodman * EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 07:38:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11Cb6j05330; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:37:06 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:37:06 -0500 Old-Return-Path: Message-ID: <002001c3e8c0$1c181110$05ae0044@tomdyy5ufajt7n> From: "Tom Rex" To: References: Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 05:37:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40619 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com This reminds me of one of the pieces on "Sketches of Spain" where Miles appears to be stuck, but when he comes out of it, what beautiful music!!! There's also, the accompanying background of the orchestra romping, which comes into the foreground while Miles finds his way back to creativity, which has an ambient sound to it, which is a ground in itself. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Per Boysen" To: "Loopers" Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 5:00 AM Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing > On 04-02-01 06.30, "Dan Soltzberg" wrote: > > Sorry for reposting on this topic, but I forgot some details. > > > > Problem is, > >1. It�s kind of intense to go to every show having no idea of > > what I�m going to play, hoping the muse is on the guest list > > > Right! This is not so different from a gig with pre structured, or composed, > music. Uninspired makes dull, always. It's just that a lousy gig with > composed music might still sound a bit like "music" to untrained ears. > > And as an improvising performer it's harder to cheat when you have a bad > night. But the more you play the more you also understand that the listeners > do not experiencing your music the way you expect them to. In fact you may > think that you are having a lousy gig but out there listeners in the > audience can find it extremely uplifting. You just can't read others > exception while you are playing. When you start out an improvisation you > have to understand that you let go of all control. It is indeed a method to > put oneself in situations where you loose control and have to rely entirely > on instinct. A trick to achieve innovation. > > > > 2. It�s hard to bring other musicians in without having at least some > > structure. > > There are also musicians that take interest in totally improvised music and > then there shouldn't be a need for providing structure. I think a more usual > problem is to manage to stay away from forming structures when improvising > with other musicians. Everyone really have to listen fully all the time and > be prepared to throw his own riffs right down the garbage drain if needed. > > Best regards > > Per Boysen > -- > Public Music Beta Testing http://www.looproom.com/p2p/ > From Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com Sun Feb 1 08:02:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: (from looper@localhost) by hemlock.violacea.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id i11D0lw09979; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:00:47 -0500 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:00:47 -0500 Old-Return-Path: Message-ID: <004401c3e8c3$63518720$05ae0044@tomdyy5ufajt7n> From: "Tom Rex" To: References: <003801c3e7ef$184745f0$64ddfea9@DAYGLOGREEN> Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 06:00:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C3E888.B6D14470" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40620 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: Loopers-Delight-request@loopers-delight.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C3E888.B6D14470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JS Bach did some of this with "The Royal Theme" as it's now called. He = improvised for the King on the theme in the palace, then later after he = went home, he wrote up what he remembered and sent it back to the King = as "A Musical Offering". Naji Hakim - Composer - Organist - Improviser BACH'ORAMA Orgelfantasie =FCber Themen von Johann Sebastian Bach This organ fantasy develops several themes from Johann Sebastian Bach's = works. The succession of motives inspire different metrical, = contrapuntal or expressive textures generating a rhapsodic form. The = royal theme from the Musical Offering followed by a fugal development of = Kyrie II from B minor mass appear in the middle of the structrure as = climaxes to this homage. http://www.najihakim.com/works/notes/bachorama.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: loop.pool=20 To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com=20 Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 4:40 AM Subject: Re: Improvising vs. composing I've been doing nothing but pure improvisation for the last four years = of my life in=20 live looping situations and am ready to get down to some rigidly = composed music again. I found inspiration in the famous Shoenberg quote: "All Composition is just very slow Improvisation." and have added it's corollary: "All Imrpovisation is just very fast Composition". What I've found in my life's work is that I tend to oscillate between = the two modes. Early on it became obvious that group improvisations could be a very fertile source for = composition. Obviously this is mitigated by the relative strengths = (and desires) of the musicians one plays with. Other times, purely = composed pieces of music (which frequently have some problems because = other musicians don't always have a way of 'being part' of the process = when you hand out written parts) yield really great results. I have to say that some of the great moments of my life were = improvising with musicians that I just met but I also am in the mood lately to have rigidly controlled and = formalistically composed pieces of music. Consquently, I've been kind of following the loose formula of doing a = live improv CD followed by a formal composed Abstract Electronica CD. = I just broke mildly from this mold by releasing a CD that has both elements in it, though which leads me to believe that it is probably = best to eschew formalized approaches to this dialectic. This is where modern software and hardware technology comes in. On my = last tour, I saved every loop that I loved onto my Repeater (and if only = the EDP had the same kind of saving function that was quick, like the = Repeater). =20 I recently revisited these loops and realize that I have the basis for = several formal compositions using these live loops. I also love to record everything to minidisc because I can import a = live concert into my computer and then=20 cast about to find ideas that are so strong that they can then become = the basis of a formal composition. A lot of loops that I love but haven't found a good compositional home = for , I send to several artists that I love to collaborate with in the = hopes that they may stimulate some collaborative recording. It's the wonderful thing about using loops as a way of making music. = They are fodder for many different kinds of creativity including things = that we don't actually control ourselves. I say.............no all or none.................just use your musical = output in every way you can..........improvisationally or = compositionally. It can all be good!! ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C3E888.B6D14470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

JS Bach did some of this with "The = Royal Theme" as=20 it's now called. He improvised for the King on the theme in the = palace,=20 then later after he went home, he wrote up what he remembered and sent = it back=20 to the King as "A Musical Offering".

Naji Hakim -=20 Composer - Organist -=20 Improviser

BACH'ORAMA

Orgelfantasie =FCber = Themen von Johann=20 Sebastian Bach

This organ fantasy develops several = themes from=20 Johann Sebastian Bach's works. The succession of motives inspire = different=20 metrical, contrapuntal or expressive textures generating a = rhapsodic=20 form. The royal theme from = the=20 Musical Offering followed by a fugal development of Kyrie = II=20 from B minor mass appear in the middle of the structrure as = climaxes to=20 this homage.

http://www.n= ajihakim.com/works/notes/bachorama.html

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 loop.pool=20