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From: Ambientronic@webtv.net (Scott Harrington)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 13:35:42 -0500 (EST)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Help finding pedals
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Hi there, I need help trying to locate a phrase sampler pedal such as
the boomerang.  I've been interested in loops for about two years now
and the only looper I've been using has been the dod dfx94 which I like
but I want to do longer loops.  I want to start performing live as a one
man band because I've enjoyed playing for myself these last few years.
I've been playing guitar for four and a half years now and my passion
for loop based ambient rock has grown steadily since aquiring the dod
pedal.   Since I'm relatively new to longer based looping i would really
appreciate it if someone could help me locate a used  phrase sampler.  I
don't know what the going rates are or what some of the other models are
besides the boomerang(which has me very impressed) .  Any feedback would
greatly help.  When I play loops my mind goes into a meditative state
and it really makes me feel good! Thanks!
--Scott--

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan  1 14:50:36 1999
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Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 11:49:23 -0800 (PST)
From: dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Help finding pedals
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hey,
I use the Jamman and love it.  I find it to be noisy in the studio
though.  I've also used the boomerang and it has many cool functions
but it is also very noisy.  I'm currently looking for a less noisy
system for the studio so I can get these damn engineers off my back. 
Happy New Year
Permadan


---Scott Harrington <Ambientronic@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> Hi there, I need help trying to locate a phrase sampler pedal such as
> the boomerang.  I've been interested in loops for about two years now
> and the only looper I've been using has been the dod dfx94 which I
like
> but I want to do longer loops.  I want to start performing live as a
one
> man band because I've enjoyed playing for myself these last few years.
> I've been playing guitar for four and a half years now and my passion
> for loop based ambient rock has grown steadily since aquiring the dod
> pedal.   Since I'm relatively new to longer based looping i would
really
> appreciate it if someone could help me locate a used  phrase
sampler.  I
> don't know what the going rates are or what some of the other models
are
> besides the boomerang(which has me very impressed) .  Any feedback
would
> greatly help.  When I play loops my mind goes into a meditative state
> and it really makes me feel good! Thanks!
> --Scott--
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan  1 15:23:42 1999
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Message-ID: <368D2D4E.5FFF@lwmarks.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 14:17:18 -0600
From: wilson marks <wlson@lwmarks.com>
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Subject: lexicon jam man
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hello to all,
I have a lexicon jam man for sale.  It's in primo condition and has the
32-second chip already installed.  It's home is a rack case with two
extra spaces in it. This will go with it.  I live in Texas and would be
happy to send it (cash on delivery of course) to a lucky looper. Please
let me know if you are interested.
wilson marks

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan  1 17:23:20 1999
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From: PJBMHB@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:19:04 EST
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the zoom 508 has 4 seconds of delay and is programmable. might want to check
one out. can be found for less than 100 bucks. the best thing about them is
you can roll off the treble on the repeats so it sounds much more natural.
hope this helps. PJ

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 02:33:27 1999
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From: ninomori@entelchile.net (EDUARDO PABLO MIRANDA BRUNEL)
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: How connect a multieffect to TASCAM 564
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 04:25:28 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi!!!:
        My question it's How I connect a multieffect (Addverb III by =
peavey, in this case) to myTASCAM 564?. Obviously i read the owner's =
manual first, but it's not clear enough about this section.I try to =
connect the multieffect for so many ways, but nothing happens, so please =
send some help!!!. Thank you!!!
bye!!!

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi!!!:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My question it's How =
I connect=20
a multieffect (Addverb III by peavey, in this case) to myTASCAM 564?. =
Obviously=20
i read the owner's manual first, but it's not clear enough about this =
section.I=20
try to connect the multieffect for so many ways, but nothing happens, so =
please=20
send some help!!!. Thank you!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>bye!!!</FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3607.ECE42C00--

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 08:57:18 1999
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From: "Tim Walker" <tawalker@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 13:43:49 
Reply-To: "Tim Walker" <tawalker@dircon.co.uk>
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Subject: Noisy 'Rang? (off "help finding pedals")
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Hi y'all,

In one reply in the "help finding pedals" thread, I noticed the comment
from PJ that the Boomerang Phrase Sampler is too noisy. Personally,
I've never really noticed much background noise from my 'Rang, which
I've owned since April '98 - indeed, I'm usually more worried about the
noise from my Zoom 4040 multi-FX!

IMHO, the 'Rang makes a great addition to a looping musician's setup,
particularly as there aren't really any comparable units in its price
range (now the JamMan isn't on Lexicon's books). I'm using it to record
a CD of solo guitar/electronics improvisations, for release through
MP3.com (within the next few months, hopefully); feel free to check out
the sample tracks on my MP3.com page, many of which are based round
'Rang loops.

Forgive the shameless plug for the MP3s, and I hope I've managed to
balance the Boomerang argument a bit :-)

Happy New Year to all LD'ers!
Tim.
*******************Tim Walker - Staines, UK*******************
  tawalker@dircon.co.uk - www.users.dircon.co.uk/~tawalker/
          Visit Tim's NEW recordings page at MP3.com:
*********************www.mp3.com/timwalker/*******************


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 10:35:00 1999
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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:33:39 -0400
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From: Howard Harawitz <howard@brooknorth.com>
Subject: Gibson and Oberheim
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Hi Kim and listers,

IMO, it is not without reason that list members are skeptical about
Gibson's commitment to deliver Oberheim products.

FWIW --

I recently acquired an Oberheim Echoplex Digital Pro which I am quite happy
with. As a result of this experience, I was motivated to look into other
Oberheim products.

But when I followed instructions at Oberhiem's web site, to "Just email
cayers@gibson.com with your request for a catalog and reprint", I received
the following message from my postmaster: 

>A message that you sent could not be delivered to all of its recipients. The
>following address(es) failed:
>
>  cayers@gibson.com:
>    unknown local-part "cayers" in domain "gibson.com"

This by no means indicates some kind of catastrophic marketing failure on
Gibson's part -- it's probably just carelessness. However, it is certainly
not confidence inspiring -- especially when it occurs while we are hearing
reports that, based on their past experience, a number of reputable music
dealers are unwilling to order Oberheim products.

Regards to all and best wishes for the New Year,

Howard

==========================================================
Howard Harawitz      howard@brooknorth.com              
==========================================================
Brooklyn North Software Works Inc.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 
Telephone: 1-902-423-0257
==========================================================
Check the Halifax Harbor Cam: http://www.brooknorth.com/camsite/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 10:34:49 1999
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Subject: Live looping in Austin, 1/2/99
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 99 09:33:11 +0100
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From: Tiktok Mobile HQ <tiktok@sprintmail.com>
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For those of you in the Austin area, there will be a performance tonight 
with heavy looping content at the Electric Lounge (302 Bowie).
Tiktok (solo ambient looping) will start at 9:45PM, and Futura (guitar, 
loops, bass, DJ) will begin at 10:30.  CD's will be available at the 
show, or at Fringeware books (2817 Guadalupe).

Hope to see you there,

Travis Hartnett
Tiktok, Futura

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 11:26:49 1999
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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:21:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Todd Pafford <todd@galen.erunet>
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On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Scott Harrington wrote:

> Hi there, I need help trying to locate a phrase sampler pedal such as
> the boomerang...
> --Scott--
> 

Hi Scott,
I had this same question myself a few days ago and found all the info I
needed at http://www.boomerangmusic.com/rangDesc.htm.  There's a link off
of the main page that lists retailers that sell the 'Rang.  Take a look,
I'm sure you'll be able to find one near you. :)

Happy Hunting.

---
"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear
 to man as it is, infinite."  -- William Blake

Todd Pafford   galen@erols.com 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 13:10:22 1999
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From: Crossedout@aol.com
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In a message dated 1/2/99 1:35:00 AM Central Standard Time,
ninomori@entelchile.net writes:

<<  My question it's How I connect a multieffect (Addverb III by peavey, in
this case) to myTASCAM 564?.  >>


are you trying to connect it into the effects loop? 

some Tascams have effects sends, but no returns... the returns are actually
the little auxillary "stereo line inputs". 

if this is not the case, let me know what you are trying to do and I'll try to
help (e-mail direct, not on the list). 

- Bill
Crossedout@aol.com 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 15:25:55 1999
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Message-ID: <19990102201520.9079.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:15:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rev. Doubt-Goat" <dgoat@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Jamman noise, was Re: Help finding pedals
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93

---dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> 
> hey,
> I use the Jamman and love it.  I find it to be
noisy in the studio
> though.

I've found the Jamman to be extremely quiet, though
the delay settings have a higher noise floor than the
loop settings. The problem you may be experiencing
could be due to an overloaded and noisy signal path
*to* the jamman - which then loops and layers not
only the *musical* content, but also any *noise*
coming into it.

Gain structure is always something of which to be
aware. Also, I've found that most noise that you hear
in a recording situation tends to disappear in the
final mix.

93
Rev. Doubt-GOat
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 18:07:56 1999
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To: "Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Noisy 'Rang? (off "help finding pedals")
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At 1:43 PM 1/2/99, Tim Walker wrote:
>Hi y'all,
>
>In one reply in the "help finding pedals" thread, I noticed the comment
>from PJ that the Boomerang Phrase Sampler is too noisy. Personally,
>I've never really noticed much background noise from my 'Rang, which
>I've owned since April '98 - indeed, I'm usually more worried about the
>noise from my Zoom 4040 multi-FX!
>
I also don't think the that 'Rang is particularly noisy if you set up the
gain structure correctly, which does take a bit of tweaking. When I added
the Rang to the mess of pedals I run my bass through live, I didn't notice
it adding any noise, though I admit to being considerably less than an
audiophile concerning my live sound.

The Rang does affect the sound, though. I notice my bass loses both some
highs and lows when looped, and generally sounds a bit thinner. (the direct
signal sounds fine). This is probably due to the Rang's low sampling
frequency (8k? 11K? don't remember and, frankly, don't care that much). I
personally like this effect, it tends to make the loops more distinct from
my real-time playing, and generally makes the loops compete less with the
unlooped bass. If I need higher-fidelity looping, I use my JamMan.


________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 22:43:08 1999
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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:38:39 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Jamman noise, was Re: Help finding pedals
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>93
>
>---dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> hey,
>> I use the Jamman and love it.  I find it to be
>noisy in the studio
>> though.
>
>I've found the Jamman to be extremely quiet, though
>the delay settings have a higher noise floor than the
>loop settings. The problem you may be experiencing
>could be due to an overloaded and noisy signal path
>*to* the jamman - which then loops and layers not
>only the *musical* content, but also any *noise*
>coming into it.
>
>Gain structure is always something of which to be
>aware. Also, I've found that most noise that you hear
>in a recording situation tends to disappear in the
>final mix.

hmmm, these sorts of noise things are tricky. Sometimes it's setting gains
properly, or wiring problems, or whatever. But often it's just subjective.
What a meticulous recording engineer thinks is noisy through his Neve
console and Genelecs may not be a problem for a guitarist who normally
plays a strat in a cranked marshall with a six pack handy. It's always
dependent on the context, and YMMV.

kim


______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  2 22:47:35 1999
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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:31:50 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Gibson and Oberheim
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>Hi Kim and listers,
>
>IMO, it is not without reason that list members are skeptical about
>Gibson's commitment to deliver Oberheim products.

It would be refreshing if people would try, say, picking up their telephone
and finding out what the actual story is before screaming unfounded rumors
all over the net and wasting a lot of people's time. I guess that's
expecting a lot though.

BTW, here are some numbers, if any of you feel like trying this some day:

The toll free (only in the US)  "Oberheim" number, which now goes directly
to the Gibson Customer Support desk: (877) OBERHEIM  or  (877-623-7434).

the main gibson number(s)
800-777-0795 (toll free, only in US)
800-444-2766 (toll free, only in US)
(615) 871-4500

Mike Ayers extension# (available from the company directory at the above
phone numbers):  382

gibson support email:  relations@gibson.com


>But when I followed instructions at Oberhiem's web site, to "Just email
>cayers@gibson.com with your request for a catalog and reprint", I received
>the following message from my postmaster:

His correct email address is Mike Ayers <mayers@gibson.com>. I believe it
used to be "cayers", but was changed to "mayers" some time back. Looks like
they forgot to update their web site with this. I guess we could inform
them of the problem so that they might have the opportunity to fix it,
although it seems unlikely that they will with the recent changes made to
Oberheim.

IMHO, it's a bit of a stretch to go from a failing email address to
assuming conspiracies, massive neglect of niche products, malicious
corporate attempts to injure the looping community, or other nefarious
plans. When I got a bounce message like this a few months ago with the old
address, I promptly called Mike, asked my question live and in real-time,
and got his correct email address at the same time. It was quite easy!

And if the day should come to pass that Mike Ayers is "no longer with us",
as is often the case with customer support professionals in all industries,
the next rational step is not the panicky chicken little manuever, but a
simple inquiry as to who is now responsible for answering customer
questions.


>This by no means indicates some kind of catastrophic marketing failure on
>Gibson's part -- it's probably just carelessness. However, it is certainly
>not confidence inspiring -- especially when it occurs while we are hearing
>reports that, based on their past experience, a number of reputable music
>dealers are unwilling to order Oberheim products.

But we're not hearing reports of that, we're hearing rumors of that. When
pressed, we discover that the rumored info is based on shaky inferences,
unsubstantiated info from some other unverified source, or based on
something that happened two years ago rather than any current situation.
The real info we have seen reported is that real people are buying real
echoplexes from real gibson dealers without problems, except in the past
few weeks when the christmas rush created a backorder. (As was reported by
Mike Ayers from Gibson.)  The problem here is not Gibson (or any other poor
company that has to deal with the insanity of internet rumor spreading).
The problem, as usual, is us.

The upshot is, we can each try to be more responsible about we say on
public forums, or through constant vigilence we can attempt to get others
to do the same, or we all learn to be a bit more skeptical of info that
comes to us with many capital letters and exclamation points.


Now, once again (and I'm sure this will need to be repeated 9000 more times
before it actually sinks in), here's the echoplex deal:

The Gibson Musical Instruments product called the "Oberheim Echoplex
Digital Pro" has been switched to another Gibson division called "Electar."

Thus, the Echoplex will most likely be renamed the "Electar Echoplex
Digital Pro". Please try not to panic about this.

The Electar Echoplex Digital Pro is exactly the same thing as the Oberheim
Echoplex Digital Pro, aside from any modifications they may make to get CE
approval in europe. (However, if this name change causes the resale value
of original Oberheim units to skyrocket, I have a one-of-a-kind black faced
Oberheim Echoplex prototype that I would be happy to trade for a small
tropical island.)

The Echoplex is still in production, exactly the same as it has been for
quite some time, and still available from Gibson Dealers.

This is a step up for this particular looping product, reflecting more
attention on it by Corporate America, not less. Good, not bad.

You folks in the UK can feel some sort of nationalistic pride, as the
"Electar Echoplex Digital Pro" appears slated for manufacturing by the
Trace-Elliot facility, also part of Electar/Gibson. The Electar office
remains in Nashville, most of the previous Oberheim people can be found
there.

Moving the manufacturing is not expected to cause some horrible shortage in
echoplexes, as the people running Electar are capable individuals who had
the remarkable forsight to maintain the existing production facility until
the new one is operating. Again, please try not to panic.

Gibson is not going to have a division called "Oberheim" any longer. They
are licensing that name to Viscount, the Italian company that has been
making many of the products in the Oberheim line for several years. (like
the OB-3^2 organ module, eclipse keyboard controller, micro-grand piano
module, etc.)  Viscount will continue to sell those products with the
Oberheim brand name, so they are still available.

Yes, Tom knows about this, and was amused. (he's doing well these days, BTW)

None of this is actually public information yet, which is presumably why
there has not yet been a marketing campaign on Gibson's part to explain it
to people. The only reason anybody knows about it at all is that Gibson has
been recently trying to dispel the rumor infections that have been going
about. Please note that most companies in this industry make announcements
at major trade shows, like Winter NAMM and Frankfurt Musik Messe. A
reasonable person might expect to wait until one of those events to hear
some official proclamation, if said person thinks such info is really
important to him or her.

Events like this go on in all industries, all the time. Especially when the
business climate is favoring mergers, as it is now. It's *normal*.

I don't learn this stuff by magic. A simple phone call is all it took.

kim


______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 11:42:54 1999
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Subject: EH 16 sec delay clones
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 99 16:34:39 -0000
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From: Martin Shellard <martins@pwdu.demon.co.uk>
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>Hello Martin,
>
>I read your info regarding the EH16 replica. Could you please
>send me the contact details when you get them.
>Best wishes
>Lars Bjork

To all who mailed me with reqests for details.
I'm having trouble getting hold of the guy, it seems he's moved and I 
haven't got a forwarding address. When (or if) I find him I'll let you 
know.
Apologies to all.







Martin Shellard

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From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
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a bit ago, i asked about inexpensive speakers and got some wonderful
suggestions....yesterday , i received "carvin's" new catalog and on page 6
they have a pm5.......they are offering 4 of these speakers and 150w amp for
the grand total of 449.95 plus 24.95 shipping.......anyone know of these
things?........michael

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 13:18:40 1999
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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:05:49 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: speaker question again
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At 12:49 PM 1/3/99 EST, you wrote:
>a bit ago, i asked about inexpensive speakers and got some wonderful
>suggestions....yesterday , i received "carvin's" new catalog and on page 6
>they have a pm5.......they are offering 4 of these speakers and 150w amp for
>the grand total of 449.95 plus 24.95 shipping.......anyone know of these
>things?........michael
>
>

Michael,
	I've used Carvin products for years, and I can testify to their excellent
quality and craftmanship. In fact, I'm using an ancient Carvin 4x12 speaker
cabinet still--and it's incredible. Through the years, I've owned guitars,
basses and speakers with the Carvin name on them--and I can tell you that
all of their products are worth TWICE the price that you'll pay for them.
Sincerely,
Jeff McLeod
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 13:56:27 1999
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Subject: RE: speaker question again
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:51:24 -0800
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SSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZSBZYW1haGEgTlMxME1zIHVzZWQgdG8gYmUgdmVyeSBnb29kIHNwZWFr
ZXJzLiAgQXJlIHRoZXkgc3RpbGwgaW4gMTk5OT8NCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0t
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YW5uaWhpbGlzdC5jb20NClN1YmplY3Q6IHNwZWFrZXIgcXVlc3Rpb24gYWdhaW4NCg0KDQphIGJp
dCBhZ28sIGkgYXNrZWQgYWJvdXQgaW5leHBlbnNpdmUgc3BlYWtlcnMgYW5kIGdvdCBzb21lIHdv
bmRlcmZ1bA0Kc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMuLi4ueWVzdGVyZGF5ICwgaSByZWNlaXZlZCAiY2FydmluJ3Mi
IG5ldyBjYXRhbG9nIGFuZCBvbiBwYWdlIDYNCnRoZXkgaGF2ZSBhIHBtNS4uLi4uLi50aGV5IGFy
ZSBvZmZlcmluZyA0IG9mIHRoZXNlIHNwZWFrZXJzIGFuZCAxNTB3IGFtcCBmb3INCnRoZSBncmFu
ZCB0b3RhbCBvZiA0NDkuOTUgcGx1cyAyNC45NSBzaGlwcGluZy4uLi4uLi5hbnlvbmUga25vdyBv
ZiB0aGVzZQ0KdGhpbmdzPy4uLi4uLi4ubWljaGFlbA0KDQo=

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 16:36:33 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:21:23 -0700
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Edwin Hurwitz <edwin@indra.com>
Subject: RE: speaker question again
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>I understand the Yamaha NS10Ms used to be very good speakers.  Are they
>still in 1999?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nemoguitt@aol.com [mailto:Nemoguitt@aol.com]
>Sent: Sunday 03 January 1999 9:50 AM
>To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>Subject: speaker question again
>
>
>a bit ago, i asked about inexpensive speakers and got some wonderful
>suggestions....yesterday , i received "carvin's" new catalog and on page 6
>they have a pm5.......they are offering 4 of these speakers and 150w amp for
>the grand total of 449.95 plus 24.95 shipping.......anyone know of these
>things?........michael

Yamaha NS10s are really quite crappy sounding speakers. their mids are
painful and lows non existent. It really depends on what your goals are. I
wouldn't really expect true fidelity from the carvins and certainly not the
NS10s. You get what you pay for for the most part. To my ear you get even
less with the Yamahas. If you want beater speakers for whatever, the
Carvins might be a good way to go, but make sure you can send them back if
you don't like them.

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


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From: Howard Harawitz <howard@brooknorth.com>
Subject: Re: Gibson and Oberheim
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Hi Kim,

In response to my message reporting the failure of an Email address at the
Oberheim web site, you wrote:

>It would be refreshing if people would try, say, picking up their telephone
>and finding out what the actual story is before screaming unfounded rumors
>all over the net and wasting a lot of people's time....

You are probably right. It might have been better if I hadn't posted my
concern. I really don't want to belabor this. 

But...

I was not trying to add to some kind of conspiracy against Gibson/Oberheim.
My intent was to offer constructive criticism via this list, believing that
the folks from Gibson who monitor it would carry the word upstairs. It was
you and they who helped me to make up my mind to buy my Echoplex, so I know
that they're out there.

>I guess that's
>expecting a lot though.

Yup. It is expecting a lot.

In my original post, I stated that I have an Echoplex and I like it. But it
is hardly my place to make a long distance call on my nickel (their 800
numbers are US numbers, I think you said -- and there also can be
significant time involved with phone tag and all) so that Gibson can
improve relations with their dealers and customers.

>But we're not hearing reports of that, we're hearing rumors of that. When
>pressed, we discover that the rumored info is based on shaky inferences,
>unsubstantiated info from some other unverified source, or based on
>something that happened two years ago rather than any current situation.

I am definitely not "screaming unfounded rumors" based on two year old
information. Only a couple of months ago, I, myself, had problems finding a
shop in the US or Canada that would sell me an Oberheim Echoplex. I
reported that experience to this list. At the time, that seemed
appropriate. In fact, it was only after several of those kinds of reports
appeared, and via the list's "Group Buy", that I (along with several dozen
other list members) was actually able to acquire an Echoplex.

If there are misconceptions and rumors about Gibson's ability to deliver
Oberheim products, they are being spread by some reasonably reputable music
dealers. Those are the people that you and Gibson need to reassure -- not
the folks like me that are trying to buy Oberheim products from those dealers.

I know that you have a different view of the situation. It is probably
closer to the reality inside Gibson than mine is. However, you are hardly a
typical Gibson/Oberheim customer -- you worked on the Echoplex and know
people at Gibson on a personal basis. 

My perception is that of a prospective customer, and I was reporting this
because, from that point of view, Gibson has a bit of fence mending to do.

IMO, that means taking care of small things like an Email address that
fails. Because if they don't, folks like me will be led to believe that the
recent changes, rather than solving old problems, may have created some new
ones that will continue to get in the way of satisfactory service. 

>I guess we could inform
>them of the problem so that they might have the opportunity to fix it,
>although it seems unlikely that they will with the recent changes made to
>Oberheim.

Er...

My case rests.

Regards and best wishes,

Howard

==========================================================
Howard Harawitz      howard@brooknorth.com              
==========================================================
Brooklyn North Software Works Inc.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 
Telephone: 1-902-423-0257
==========================================================
Check the Halifax Harbor Cam: http://www.brooknorth.com/camsite/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 16:52:57 1999
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Subject: Yamaha NS10s
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 99 14:44:31 -0700
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>I understand the Yamaha NS10Ms used to be very good speakers.  Are they 
>still in 1999?


    The Yamaha NS10Ms have never been very good speakers:  They are 
    anything but flat, have poor frequency response, and have achieved
    their ubiquity in the studio world by virtue of the fact that 
    Yamaha GAVE them away early on.

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In a message dated 1/3/99 3:38:03 PM, edwin@indra.com writes:

>Yamaha NS10s are really quite crappy sounding speakers. their mids are
>painful and lows non existent. It really depends on what your goals are.

My understanding of NS10's are that they are crappy sounding, but that a mix
that sounds good on them will sound good on anything anywhere, and somehow
they became an industry standard.....

Marshall

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Subject: RE: speaker question again
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Subject: RE: Yamaha NS10s
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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 18:18:58 1999
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From: "andre" <andre@monmouth.com>
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Subject: R.I.P Everett Hafner, Synth pioneer
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summa you might be interested in this... esp. the synth-heads..

Subject: [awizard] RIP Everett Hafner

I posted this earlier today to an analogue synthesizer mail list
I belong to.  But there is a Todd Rundgren connection here also.

EMSA helped M. Frog (Jean Yves Labat) with his multiple Synthi
AKS rig.  Jean Yves used an EMS PVC (pitch to voltage converter)
for many of the sounds on AWATS.  Also, Todd used an EMS VCS3
(also known as a Putney) on many records.  You can see the device
on the right-hand side of the S/A inner cover.  Most of the sound
in "Breathless" was made on this machine.  TR also used a Synthi
Hi-Fli guitar synth on the early Utopia gigs.  Finally, Everett
agreed to loan TR the EMS Vocoder 3000 at no cost for the Oops,
Wrong Planet sessions.

I would not be on this list today or have discovered TR without
the influence of Everett.

So as 1998 ends, I think of all the people I have known who died
this year.  And I am sad but also inspired.  Everett was at least
in his late 70s but was still active and involved.  If you have
to go, going down while pursuing your dream of flying doesn't
seem so awful.  Sure beats my Father-in-Laws slow decline into
Alzheimer's and Parkinson's in a nursing home.  I suspect he will
not be here next year at this time and I dearly love him and
already miss him.

My post:

I was informed last night that Prof. Everett Hafner died in a
small plane crash last August 2nd in Western MA.  Everett was the

founder and owner of EMSA, the US distributor for EMS products in

the 1970s.  EMSA also sold Moog and ARP equipment, the primary
market being colleges and High Schools.  Many of us who first
discovered analog synthesis via school music labs have used
equipment sold by Prof. Hafner.

In 1977 I quit my job as a school teacher and moved to
Northampton MA in order to work with Everett in EMSA.  Never a
profitable venture, we just scraped by for a long time.  In the
office we had many Synthi AKS's, Revox tape machines, a Moog 35
and 2 Moog 15s, a custom built Oberheim 8 Voice,  various ARPs,
and a piano.

Everett hosted a weekly local NPR show on electronic music.  He
traveled extensively offering classes in synthesis at various
schools.  He was also a Physics professor at Hampshire College
and the first Dean of the School of Natural Sciences there.  I
corresponded with him via email the last several years, he had
retired, opened a bed & breakfast in the countryside, went back
to UMASS and obtained a doctorate in music theory, and realized
his life-long dream of getting a pilots license.

He composed much music and was often involved in exploring
micro-tonal scales.

An eccentric man, he sometimes angered customers with his
business approach.  However, he was a true friend and mentor to
me.


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Got a wonderful surprise last night when I went to see EN in Philly at
the trocadero. In addition to the incredible performance of found/metal
instruments, percussive micing of drilling, sawing, and banging, there
were quite a few momoents of genuine beauty and dynamics. 

One thing I didn't even figure out until halfway through the set was the
leader/singer Her Bargald was looping his mic and making live layers ov
voice, vocal sound effects and spoken word stuff. I heard (perhaps from
this list?) that he did this on a "spoken word" performance in germany
last year but I didn't realize he used i live with EN.

Juding from what he was doing I wasn't sure what hardware he was using.
most of it could be accomplished with an Echoplex I'd imagine but he
also created some sturring effects with the loops already in the machine
so I'm not sure. Whatver he used it was 100% controlled by a floor unit
in front of him but alas behind the monitors so I never did get a chance
to see what it was.

If you've *ever* been curious about this band (one of the true pioneers
of "industrial" music back when the term almost meant something) you
should try and catch these guys.  Given the material it was a far cry
from the more confrontational stuff they used to do and featured a lot
more range and expressiveness IMO. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
     HELP WANTED PRODUCTIONS - Http://www.voicenet.com/~legion
"Bringing you the best in Organic Electronic music since we started..."
     
Home of the Unusual Instrument and Recording Gallery with pictures and
info of Tube recorders, Omnichords, weird guitars, Casios, and more.

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In a message dated 1/3/99 3:38:07 PM Central Standard Time, edwin@indra.com
writes:

<< Yamaha NS10s are really quite crappy sounding speakers. their mids are
 painful and lows non existent. It really depends on what your goals are. >>

from what I understand, the prevalence of NS10's are not due to being amazing
speakers, but from them being used in enough studios that they are a picked up
as a common reference point, i.e. you go from studio A to studio B and you are
familiar with the sound of the speakers (notches and all) so you can evaluate
OTHER things that may be coloring the sound in the other studio. 

just a thought...

- Crossedout@aol.com

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At 03:07 AM 1/3/99 -0500, kflint@annihilist.com wrote:
>The Echoplex is still in production, exactly the same as it has been for
>quite some time, and still available from Gibson Dealers.
>
couple things:
as an opcode employee (opcode is now a division of gibson), i was able to 
do an internal-direct-purchase of my EDP upgrade to v5.0. the gibson 
guy (keith paul) asked me to write my check to "Electar Labs".  
this confirms both the new name of the division, and that they are still 
actively supporting the EDP...

when i also asked keith about the oberheim matrix-1000, he said it is 
now officially out of production.  (bummer!) 

so all here should be happy that the EDP is still being manufactured
and supported!   and all those who own matrix-1000's can now watch them 
start to go up in value a bit 8^)

-john

......................................................
john s cooper                     opcode systems, inc
http://www.planetz.com          http://www.opcode.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 19:45:55 1999
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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 18:36:51 -0600
From: Bobdog Catlin <psbuddha@texas.net>
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here's the deal with ns10m's:

every studio has 'em, every engineer has worked with 'em, they are harsh
sounding little buggers & i hate 'em, but...

if you can make it sound good on these guys, it'll sound good
*anywhere*!

i am peronnally not good enough or patient enough to make anything sound
good on ns10m's, so i sold mine & got a pair o' audix 1a's & a pair of
alesis monitor 2's; those i'm good enough to work with.

happy new year to all, peace & love,

bobdog

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From: David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer@exapps.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight-d@annihilist.com
Subject: Korg DL 8000
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:41:42 -0500 
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	I couldn't resist the Musician's Friend price on this unit.  What a
little beastie it is.  Too bad the manual is so, um, unilluminating.  All
six pages of it...

	Has anyone else on the list any tips on how to get "inside" this
vortex-like short looper.  I hope to use it to feed weird and mysterious
sounds into my EDP.

	Anyone?

	dk
	UNDO

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hey folks -

i know this is a dead thread, but someone mentioned finding the lexicon
mpx 100 for $150 from a mail order joint; who was that who had it at
that price?

i'd appreciate any help!

bobdog

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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:53:47 -0700
To: <gnominus@earthling.net>
From: Edwin Hurwitz <edwin@indra.com>
Subject: RE: speaker question again
Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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>In your experience, Edwin, what are good speakers to look for?
>

It's been a long time since I auditioned speakers. It really depends on
your budget and what you want them for. Do you want to make good sounding
mixes or do you want your music to sound nice? Those are two different aims
and different speakers excel at either one, but few speakers accomplish
both. rec.audio.pro has a lot of info about what people in the business
think about all kinds of things including speakers.
	For my next set of speakers for using with my computer I am very
tempted to look into a set from speakerkits.com but if I were to drop some
cash I would probably look into the Mackies. My first step would be to go
to my local pro audio store (Wind Over the Earth here in Boulder) and check
out what they had and what they thought and I would bring some mixes I
loved and hated to audition the speakers. Right now I had a pair of ADS
speakers from the early 80s that I use mostly because I know them real well
and they don't have a bloated low end. They seem to image fairly well and
have a reasonably balanced frequency range. I power them with an NAD
amplifier. It's not a super accurate system, but it works for my purposes
for now.
	To my mind and ear, speakers are the most difficult part of the
signal chain and thus the most important to really deal with.  You must
learn the shortcomings of every speaker that you listen to. If you have
deep pockets, check out the Meyer HD1 or whatever they currently have.

I hope this helps,

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


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>I hope to use it to feed weird and mysterious
>sounds into my EDP.
If you've already got a looping delay, I suggest the DL's talented cousin, the
AM8000. I like mine so much (as a weird-maker), I just ordered another from
MF...really, this is the under-appreciated specialFX device of the year.
dpc

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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 21:56:36 -0400
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Howard Harawitz <howard@brooknorth.com>
Subject: Re:  Korg DL 8000
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Hi DP,

RE:
>If you've already got a looping delay, I suggest the DL's talented cousin,
the
>AM8000. I like mine so much (as a weird-maker), I just ordered another from
>MF...really, this is the under-appreciated specialFX device of the year.

Can you say a bit more about that?

Thanks,

Howard
==========================================================
Howard Harawitz      howard@brooknorth.com              
==========================================================
Brooklyn North Software Works Inc.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 
Telephone: 1-902-423-0257
==========================================================
Check the Halifax Harbor Cam: http://www.brooknorth.com/camsite/

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Hi DPC:

Have you compared the Korg AM8000 to the late and great Lexicon Vortex?

kjc

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In a message dated 1/3/99 7:07:43 PM, edwin@indra.com writes:

>To my mind and ear, speakers are the most difficult part of the
>signal chain and thus the most important to really deal with.  You must
>learn the shortcomings of every speaker that you listen to.

My problem is that it takes me several weeks to learn these shortcomings....I
am trying to find a pair of powered monitors for my studio, and am considering
Event 20/20's, the Mackies, and the KRK V8's, as well as any other good
suggestions. It is very difficult trying to compare them in Guitar Center,
that's for sure, and it would look kinda funny if you purchase several sets of
monitors in order to return them two weeks later. Another problem is
discerning what sounds good vs what sounds correct (and reveals flaws) is
difficult to differentiate to my relatively untrained ear.


Marshall

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From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: RE: speaker question again
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At 2:40 PM -0800 1/3/99, Marzzz@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 1/3/99 3:38:03 PM, edwin@indra.com writes:
>
>>Yamaha NS10s are really quite crappy sounding speakers. their mids are
>>painful and lows non existent. It really depends on what your goals are.
>
>My understanding of NS10's are that they are crappy sounding, but that a mix
>that sounds good on them will sound good on anything anywhere, and somehow
>they became an industry standard.....

That was always my understanding, that the crappiness of these speakers
pretty accurately reflects the crappiness of the typical boombox speaker
that a track will probably be played through. So if you mix something to
sound good on NS10's it probably sounds good in a typical listening
environment, even though the speakers themselves don't qualify as "good".

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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At 1:17 PM -0800 1/3/99, Howard Harawitz wrote:

>I was not trying to add to some kind of conspiracy against Gibson/Oberheim.
>My intent was to offer constructive criticism via this list, believing that
>the folks from Gibson who monitor it would carry the word upstairs.

In other words, instead of simply calling them with a helpful suggestion,
you choose to make a public spectacle, cause largely undeserved fear and
doubt among other potential customers, and force them to devote a lot of
people and effort to repairing the resulting PR damage when they could have
been fixing the small problem you had and getting on with their job of
producing music gear? I'm not trying to flame you in particular, Howard,
because I've seen many other people go way more over the top than you have,
but I just don't see the logic in this approach. It seems more designed to
harm than help, and I'm getting a bit tired of seeing people wasting a lot
of time and effort on all sides to deal with this sort of thing. In my
experience, this is about the least effective way to deal with a problem.



>>But we're not hearing reports of that, we're hearing rumors of that. When
>>pressed, we discover that the rumored info is based on shaky inferences,
>>unsubstantiated info from some other unverified source, or based on
>>something that happened two years ago rather than any current situation.
>
>I am definitely not "screaming unfounded rumors" based on two year old
>information.

you might not have, but others definitely were.

>Only a couple of months ago, I, myself, had problems finding a
>shop in the US or Canada that would sell me an Oberheim Echoplex. I
>reported that experience to this list. At the time, that seemed
>appropriate. In fact, it was only after several of those kinds of reports
>appeared, and via the list's "Group Buy", that I (along with several dozen
>other list members) was actually able to acquire an Echoplex.

The people who organized that group buy didn't have trouble finding a
dealer, right? In fact, there were a variety of dealers competing for that,
as I recall. Other people have located dealers without much difficulty,
right? If you call up Gibson and ask for a dealer, they are happy to
suggest a few. Probably they can even tell you which ones have stock in
echoplexes or whatever you're looking for, or when another shipment is
expected. You can even get dealer information off their website. When
people ask for a recommendation for echoplex dealers on this list, they
promptly get a variety of replies, often including replies from Gibson
folks. In other words, was this really Gibson's fault?

As far as I can tell, Gibson is more than happy to help you buy their
products, and generally friendly and efficient about it. The same can be
said for just about any other company, I would guess. So before you go
citing this as evidence of horrible calamities for the echoplex, could you
at least ask yourself whether you were making a sensible effort to find a
dealer in the first place? For example, did you try the obvious approach of
calling Gibson and asking for a dealer near you?


>If there are misconceptions and rumors about Gibson's ability to deliver
>Oberheim products, they are being spread by some reasonably reputable music
>dealers. Those are the people that you and Gibson need to reassure -- not
>the folks like me that are trying to buy Oberheim products from those dealers.

Sorry, I haven't seen any of these rumors about Gibson being spread by
"reputable dealers". More like irresponsible net users. If a Gibson dealer
were doing that, I imagine they would cease to be a dealer pretty quickly.
I have seen a few cases where uninformed dealers were telling potential
customers things about Oberheim that were wrong, and as soon as Gibson knew
about it I think they tried to correct the problem (or other dealers
happily jumped in to take the business). For the most part, the damaging
rumors I've seen were coming from uninformed people throwing fits on the
net. The sad thing is this stuff persists regardless of what a company has
done. There's always somebody popping up to scream about something online
without making any effort at all to to see if what they are saying reflects
any real situation. It really sucks for the people on the other side of it,
who are working hard to do things right and still get stuck wasting their
time on pointless PR firedrills.

It's not just Gibson, either, this sort of thing happens a lot. But in the
past few months there have been all sorts of crazy things said about
Gibson, very little of which had any reality associated with it.

I think it's an issue of responsibility for the community you are in. For
one, if there are hardly any companies interested in producing looping
gear, how are you helping that situation by using public forums to attack
those that do and scaring away their potential customers? Would you rather
there were no companies producing these instruments? If you want a better
situation, how about making a positive contribution rather than a negative
one?

The second responsibility issue is libel. The result of people making
unfounded accusations online is more and more companies are filing libel
suits to recover damages to their reputations or their business. I imagine
the outcome of this trend will be a chill on people's willingness to
express themselves in any circumstance, which sucks. I think if we, as a
community, don't want that sort of thing happening, we all need to take
some responsibility for the accuracy and effect of our words.


>My perception is that of a prospective customer, and I was reporting this
>because, from that point of view, Gibson has a bit of fence mending to do.

What more do you expect them to do? They've posted here regularly, they've
repeatedly provided all of the information that you failed to find in this
very forum, they've been very helpful to folks on the phone, they've done
backflips to help people out who reported a problem to them, they've worked
very hard to get production up to meet demand and improve their products,
they've done everything they could to improve relations with dealers. Does
none of that count? Should they also be employing a bank of people to post
careful replies every time some tortured ego with an email account decides
to trash them anyway? Personally, I would much rather see them (and other
companies, like mine) doing their job of producing musical instruments than
wasting time endlessly combatting the latest items in the rumor mill.


>IMO, that means taking care of small things like an Email address that
>fails. Because if they don't, folks like me will be led to believe that the
>recent changes, rather than solving old problems, may have created some new
>ones that will continue to get in the way of satisfactory service.

But you didn't even give them a chance to take care of this problem! Rather
than contacting them to let them know of the error, you jumped right onto
the net to make an issue of it. How fair was that?

>From my perspective, no matter what they do there will be some people who
manage to find some problem, no matter how trivial, that proves the end is
nigh. Personally, I find that irresponsible and frustrating, especially
when you don't even give them a chance to deal with the situation.

As far as I can tell, the  Oberheim/Electar/Gibson guys (and any company
really) have been happy to get feedback from people and fix any problems
they could. Give them a chance at least!

kim


______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 22:28:48 1999
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I am a recording engineer by profession, and I use NS-10s alot. Most
working engineers do. The answer to the question of whether or not they are
good speakers is a bit complicated. Much the way that a dental hygenist
will clean 
your teeth with pure flouride, I wouldn't think that you would like
brushing at home with it.
NS-10s tell me things about my mixes that other speakers don't. I have
visited many studios where someone claims that NS-10s are 'really crappy
sounding speakers', and prefer to use genelecs. To demonstrate, they play
one of their mixes on the Genelecs and then switch to the NS-10s pointing
out how bad the 'speakers' sound. If I get a mix happening on the NS-10's
and then switch to the genelecs, these same people will be amazed at how
much better their 'speakers' sound. NS 10's are a tool for me. I like them.
YMMV

-Chuck Zwicky


At 10:51 AM 1/3/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I understand the Yamaha NS10Ms used to be very good speakers.  Are they
still in 1999?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nemoguitt@aol.com [mailto:Nemoguitt@aol.com]
>Sent: Sunday 03 January 1999 9:50 AM
>To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>Subject: speaker question again
>
>
>a bit ago, i asked about inexpensive speakers and got some wonderful
>suggestions....yesterday , i received "carvin's" new catalog and on page 6
>they have a pm5.......they are offering 4 of these speakers and 150w amp for
>the grand total of 449.95 plus 24.95 shipping.......anyone know of these
>things?........michael
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 23:42:24 1999
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>The people who organized that group buy didn't have trouble finding a
>dealer, right? 

Yes, and 2.5 months later I'm still waiting for mine.  They are on order.
It'll either be next week, next month, the month after that, whatever...
generally "RealSoonNow"(tm).



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan  3 23:48:58 1999
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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 21:45:24 +0000
From: Jim Sincock <lobo27@boulder.quik.com>
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Yes!

Ein Neu, glad to see someone talking about one of my favorite groups. I
saw them in Denver, and was blown away.  I have liked them since the
early eighties, missed their Milwaukee show in 1985 or so, and was
bummed ever since.

Indeed Blixa had some vocal loops going that at times were sonically
overpowering.  During "Headcleaner", in one of the pauses, the high
pitched keyboard sound was panning from side to side, and later Blixa's
screech was looping and panning and was almost  nausiating.  Intense
show!

Jim

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 00:08:43 1999
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NS10's serve as good monitors for getting a handle on what the mixes will
sound like in the average automobile stereo, too!  

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 02:48:37 1999
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Howdy y'all...now, who has my jam man? I've looked in every corner of the
world. I just can't seem to find one. I know that if I didn't need one,
someone would probably give one too me, you know? If anyone hears this plea
pleasepleaseplease reply to me at    cqlung@earthlink.net    Thanks alot....Q   


At 05:06 PM 1/3/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I am a recording engineer by profession, and I use NS-10s alot. Most
>working engineers do. The answer to the question of whether or not they are
>good speakers is a bit complicated. Much the way that a dental hygenist
>will clean 
>your teeth with pure flouride, I wouldn't think that you would like
>brushing at home with it.
>NS-10s tell me things about my mixes that other speakers don't. I have
>visited many studios where someone claims that NS-10s are 'really crappy
>sounding speakers', and prefer to use genelecs. To demonstrate, they play
>one of their mixes on the Genelecs and then switch to the NS-10s pointing
>out how bad the 'speakers' sound. If I get a mix happening on the NS-10's
>and then switch to the genelecs, these same people will be amazed at how
>much better their 'speakers' sound. NS 10's are a tool for me. I like them.
>YMMV
>
>-Chuck Zwicky
>
>
>At 10:51 AM 1/3/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>I understand the Yamaha NS10Ms used to be very good speakers.  Are they
>still in 1999?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Nemoguitt@aol.com [mailto:Nemoguitt@aol.com]
>>Sent: Sunday 03 January 1999 9:50 AM
>>To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>>Subject: speaker question again
>>
>>
>>a bit ago, i asked about inexpensive speakers and got some wonderful
>>suggestions....yesterday , i received "carvin's" new catalog and on page 6
>>they have a pm5.......they are offering 4 of these speakers and 150w amp for
>>the grand total of 449.95 plus 24.95 shipping.......anyone know of these
>>things?........michael
>>
>>
>
>
>

"Tie your own goddamned shoes, you one-armed son of a bitch."

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 08:44:44 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:41:21 -0800 (PST)
From: H IP <hip808@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:  Korg DL 8000
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I'm using the AM8000R with GP-100 and Echoplex (x 2). The result is
excellent!

I just got the unit a few days and I'm still exploring its deep power.
The modulation delay is one of my favorite. I personally don't think
Korg will do good on this product since it hasn't got gimmick.
However, it has its own sound. Agreed with another gentleman that it's
one of the under-appreciated item.

I may share with you guys after I've spent more with it (or make some
MP3 later).


---Howard Harawitz <howard@brooknorth.com> wrote:
>
> Hi DP,
> 
> RE:
> >If you've already got a looping delay, I suggest the DL's talented
cousin,
> the
> >AM8000. I like mine so much (as a weird-maker), I just ordered
another from
> >MF...really, this is the under-appreciated specialFX device of the
year.
> 
> Can you say a bit more about that?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Howard
> ==========================================================
> Howard Harawitz      howard@brooknorth.com              
> ==========================================================
> Brooklyn North Software Works Inc.
> Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 
> Telephone: 1-902-423-0257
> ==========================================================
> Check the Halifax Harbor Cam: http://www.brooknorth.com/camsite/
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 10:15:55 1999
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From: Thomas Rupolo <TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: Yamaha NS10s
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:07:09 -0500
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About 8 months ago I went to upgrade my speakers (you don't even want to
know what I was using) and the sales guy at Sam Ash in NY demo'ed the
KRK's for me.  Although they look very strange (they are shaped sort of
like an A frame) I thought they sounded great - loads of bass, decent
mid's.  However, for reasons I still can't fathom I foolishly bought the
NS10's and now I deeply regret it.

You should also check out the JBL 2 way speakers as well.  They don't
have all that flat a response, but they do sound great - a friend of
mine even uses them as his stereo speakers.

To further assist our friend with his buying decision, does anyone have
an opinion on powered vs. unpowered monitors?  Many manufacturers are
now making the same speakers in both versions.  Is using a separate amp
still the best way to go?


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Steve Monroe [SMTP:smonroe@ecentral.com]
> Sent:	Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:45 PM
> To:	TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com
> Subject:	Yamaha NS10s
> 
> >I understand the Yamaha NS10Ms used to be very good speakers.  Are
> they 
> >still in 1999?
> 
> 
>     The Yamaha NS10Ms have never been very good speakers:  They are 
>     anything but flat, have poor frequency response, and have achieved
>     their ubiquity in the studio world by virtue of the fact that 
>     Yamaha GAVE them away early on.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 10:34:09 1999
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From: David Myers <dmgraph@pulsewidth.com>
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All this talk about the DL8000, AM8000R, and Musician's Friend has got me
interested.  My latest catalog does not list them, nor does their web
site--what's going on?  Have been watching for these units in catalogs,
etc., but hardly ever see them.  How much does MF want?  Also, due to the
obviously narrow market for these goodies, I've been hoping for the
inevitable blow-out... is this it?


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 11:08:52 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:29:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: Jim Carter <Jim.Carter@bristol.ac.uk>
To: list server loopers delight <loopers-delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: EDP - MIDI reset?
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95q.990104152005.24905A-100000@zeus.bris.ac.uk>
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and a happy new year to everyone.

Happy to report that my (beloved) wife bought me a Digitech
Control 8 MIDI floor controller for Christmas, which I'm now
using for my Echoplex. However, the CCs from the Digitech
latch and I'm using <RecordMode=Sustain> to avoid having to 
use an awkward double tap. This in turn means that I've lost
the long tap reset function of the EDP. Although the manual 
tells me to expect this I still wonder if some crafty looper
has figured another way to reset the EDP (I actually managed
this whilst figuring out the Control8 but damned if I know what
I push or if I can reproduce it). 

Jim Carter

ps While the Control8 only has 5 CC sends (Rec/Odub/Mult/Ins/Mut)
the expression pedal can be very quickly assigned to Undo/Fback/Vol

Tel - 0117 9289934
FAX - 0117 9293746
e-mail jim.carter@bris.ac.uk

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In a message dated 1/4/99 1:17:26 PM Mid-Atlantic Standard Time,
TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com writes:

<< To further assist our friend with his buying decision, does anyone have
 an opinion on powered vs. unpowered monitors?  Many manufacturers are
 now making the same speakers in both versions.  Is using a separate amp
 still the best way to go? >>

an excellent question.......any thoughts on this?........michael

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Subject: Re: Yamaha NS10s
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>In a message dated 1/4/99 1:17:26 PM Mid-Atlantic Standard Time,
>TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com writes:
>
><< To further assist our friend with his buying decision, does anyone have
> an opinion on powered vs. unpowered monitors?  Many manufacturers are
> now making the same speakers in both versions.  Is using a separate amp
> still the best way to go? >>

Ultimately, this comes down to a matter of convenience and expense.  The
convenience factor is that powered speakers allow you to save the space
and hassle of separate amplification.  The expense factor is because of the
fact that there are a lot of really fine amplifiers out there that are better than 
the amplifiers in most powered speakers.  Sonically, it is preferable to have 
the shortest possible signal path between amp and speaker.  Given the ability
to use the identical amplifier both in an external and internal application, the
internally powered speaker should sound better.  Of course, this difference
is going to be rather negligible.

Will any of these factors really make a significant difference to you? Probably
not.  I think that the decision should be made based on your needs 

Jonathan

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Subject: RE: speaker question again
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>I am a recording engineer by profession, and I use NS-10s alot. Most
>working engineers do. The answer to the question of whether or not they are
>good speakers is a bit complicated. Much the way that a dental hygenist
>will clean
>your teeth with pure flouride, I wouldn't think that you would like
>brushing at home with it.
>NS-10s tell me things about my mixes that other speakers don't. I have
>visited many studios where someone claims that NS-10s are 'really crappy
>sounding speakers', and prefer to use genelecs. To demonstrate, they play
>one of their mixes on the Genelecs and then switch to the NS-10s pointing
>out how bad the 'speakers' sound. If I get a mix happening on the NS-10's
>and then switch to the genelecs, these same people will be amazed at how
>much better their 'speakers' sound. NS 10's are a tool for me. I like them.
>YMMV
>
>-Chuck Zwicky

You're absolutely correct about this comparison. Genelecs never seem to
translate all that well. When I was working in a studio out side of Boston
doing mostly acoustic music, we got some Genelecs and they created a lot of
confusion, especially with clients who weren't that aware of how to listen
to speakers. Still, there's information that gets by an NS10. It's really
hard to tell what is really happening on the low end with these.  They also
kill my ears pretty quickly. My other studio had NS10s and soffitted Urei
time align speakers (809s?) and that seemed like a good combination for the
time (mid-late 80s).


Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:35:40 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: EDP - MIDI reset?
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>and a happy new year to everyone.
>
>Happy to report that my (beloved) wife bought me a Digitech
>Control 8 MIDI floor controller for Christmas, which I'm now
>using for my Echoplex. However, the CCs from the Digitech
>latch and I'm using <RecordMode=Sustain> to avoid having to
>use an awkward double tap. This in turn means that I've lost
>the long tap reset function of the EDP. Although the manual
>tells me to expect this I still wonder if some crafty looper
>has figured another way to reset the EDP (I actually managed
>this whilst figuring out the Control8 but damned if I know what
>I push or if I can reproduce it).

When I use that mode, I usually just make a short loop of silence to get a
psuedo-reset. rumor has it there will be a midi command that directly
executes reset in some future version.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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> To further assist our friend with his buying decision, does anyone have
> an opinion on powered vs. unpowered monitors?  Many manufacturers are
> now making the same speakers in both versions.  Is using a separate amp
> still the best way to go?


I tend to lean towards powered monitors, though the ultimate
decision should be based on careful listening tests.  Most
powered monitors are biamped - there are separate amps
for each driver, this makes the crossover simpler and better
(since it can operate on a line level signal instead of an
amp-level signal) and there are many ways that each amp
can be tweaked for its specific driver.  For instance, the
woofer amp in the Mackie monitors uses a feedback loop with
the driver to improve bass response.

jim

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Subject: RE: Near Field Monitors
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 99 12:27:41 -0000
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Thomas Rupolo wrote:

>You should also check out the JBL 2 way speakers as well.  They don't
have all that flat a response, but they do sound great - a friend of
mine even uses them as his stereo speakers.

The new powered JBL LSRs are one of the most amazing speakers I've ever 
heard (and they've got a cool kevler/carbon fiber baffle board. . . tres 
cool)  They retail for about $1000 each, but you _should_ be able to get 
the pair for around $1400.  (Of course, I have a particular aversion to 
ever paying retail for anything, and as such concoct all sorts of 
wierdness to get stuff at wholesale prices, which I could extend to 
anyone on this list who emails me privatly)  Anyhow, these are very flat 
speakers, I've done several projects on them now and I love them.  Rich, 
full sound whithout sacrificing great imaging and a very honest picture 
of your mixes.  There's also a sub available that can be turned on or off 
with a normal footswitch, which is great for checking those Laswellian 
rumblings I'm so fond of without having to have the sub on all the time.

I've also had great luck with the Mackies, and love the imaging and 
SOUND.  The powered Tannoy PBM 8 LMs (don't you love these names?) are 
flat, have great imaging and are very comfortable to listen to for hours 
at a time.  (My all-time favorite monitor is the Tannoy System 215 DMTII 
2x15" Dual Concentric.  This is not a near field, is not self powered, 
weighs more than I do and lists for $7495 a pair, but if you find a room 
in your area that has these, you must listen to them.  They are simply 
amazing)

I've worked lots with Genelics powered nearfields and while they are 
unfatiguing to listen to, they are very uninspiring, I've tried them with 
a sub which makes them uninspiring and bottom heavy.  On paper they look 
like a great speaker, and I wanted in the worst way to like them, but I 
just don't.  NS10Ms are everywhere and everybody has mixed on them, but I 
really hate them.  If you've got to mix on them, do what everyone does 
and tape a piece of tissue over the tweeters, this makes them a bit 
easier to listen to.

>To further assist our friend with his buying decision, does anyone have
an opinion on powered vs. unpowered monitors?  Many manufacturers are
now making the same speakers in both versions.  Is using a separate amp
still the best way to go?

I like powered monitors a lot (as you can tell from the blurb above) They 
are easy to set up, easily transportable:  I always take my Tannoys with 
me to at least cross check on when mixing in a new room, and as such I 
don't have to pull out speaker wire and re-run speaker wire when I get to 
wherever I'm going.  That and the fact that powered monitors have the 
shortest run possible between the amp and speaker means that the sound 
arrives at you ear in a fairly pristine state.

Just some food for thought,


-Doug T

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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:59:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rev. Doubt-Goat" <dgoat@rocketmail.com>
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93

---Edwin Hurwitz <edwin@indra.com> wrote:
> My other studio had NS10s and soffitted Urei
> time align speakers (809s?) and that seemed like a
good combination for the
> time (mid-late 80s).

Call me naive, but I use my sony 2-way speakers for
general usage and a combo of the sonys, Senheiser
headphones and a variety of cheapo boomboxes for
final mix comparisons. Seems to work well for a home
studio situation.

93
Rev. Doubt-Goat

===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

_________________________________________________________
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Rev. Doubt-Goat, dgoat@rocketmail.com wrote:

>Call me naive, but I use my sony 2-way speakers for
>general usage and a combo of the sonys, Senheiser
>headphones and a variety of cheapo boomboxes for
>final mix comparisons. Seems to work well for a home
>studio situation.


     Using cheapo boomboxes and various types of cheapo
     car speakers to CHECK a mix certainly makes infinitely
     more sense than using Yamaha NS10s.  

     I have never understood the logic that states that
     if they check well on NS10s they will work on a boom
     box, or in someones cheapo car system ...

     (I still believe what I read on rec.audio.pro written
     by Richard D. Pierce [you could do a DejaNews search 
     dpierce@world.std.com] who is quite an authority
     on loudspeaker design.  He mentioned that the way that
     the Yamahas have achieved such a universal presence
     in the studio world is because they were given away
     early on...they have no other quality that achieved
     such presence other than they were free.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 15:05:26 1999
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Message-ID: <36911D42.2357C80D@vtx.ch>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:57:54 +0100
From: Claude Voit <c.voit@vtx.ch>
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Kim

Stop the Internet rumors

you wrote

>>But we're not hearing reports of that, we're hearing rumors of that. When
>>pressed, we discover that the rumored info is based on shaky inferences,
>>unsubstantiated info from some other unverified source, or based on
>>something that happened two years ago rather than any current situation.

but then

>When I use that mode, I usually just make a short loop of silence to get a
>psuedo-reset. rumor has it there will be a midi command that directly
>executes reset _in some future version._

"THERE WILL NEVER BE AN UPGRADE FOR THE EDP"

STOP the rumors


or perhaps can you tell more.........

;=)

HAPPY NEW YEAR

Claude

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I received my CDs this weekend - I wasn't expecting anything so
professionally done.  Man, does it make up for any hot air that sometimes
comes thru the list!

Sincere thanks to everyone that participated on it and Matt for his time
and effort.

sean

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I know this is off-loop-topic but since we are talking about speakers 
AND I like you guys, maybe someone can help. I have the Yamaha NS's in 
question, they are powered by two bridged peavey cs200x's( 
http://www.peavey.com/division/sr/pamps/csseries/CS200X.html )
I have already fried a tweeter and yes I agree, the bottom end is the 
pits. I like 'em when I'm playing with effects but with I'm just 
playin', I don't like em. (I don't use any so-called proper 
ampiflication, just the peavey's and the Yamaha's. This setup is in my 
bedroom and I have roommates so high volumes don't come into it.) I'm 
just not into loud music anymore anyways, however, I have realized that 
there is a loudness point where sound bounces of the walls just right. 
So anyways,I want more sound. Given my amplification, and the size of my 
space (approx 15 x 20 sq ft) Does anyone have any suggestions for 
speakers? I still plan on working the NS's into the setup because I like 
the high's so something in the mid to bottom range is what I think I am 
looking for.
Thanks once again to all,
E-mail offlist if desired, although I'm sure others would find useful
-Dennis


______________________________________________________
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Can someone point me in the direction of both volumes of the loopers 
deelight?


______________________________________________________
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>To further assist our friend with his buying decision, does anyone have
>an opinion on powered vs. unpowered monitors?  Many manufacturers are
>now making the same speakers in both versions.  Is using a separate amp
>still the best way to go?
>

A good powered monitor is the way to go. A case in point is the Meyer HD1.
That way each aspect of the system can be optimized for that system. If you
throw any old amp at it, you have to design the speaker to be used with a
wide variety of amps that cna have a lot of different variables, from
impedance (which changes with frequecy, an 8 ohm speaker is actually 8 ohms
for a very small portion of its range) and damping factor, etc. It's also
easy to biamp with a powered monitor. this is  a very good way to go, since
you don't lose power and smear signal through a passive crossover. The HD1s
are powered and biamped and in some ways are the most painful speakers to
listen to because they reveal EVERYTHING, but mixes always translate well
with them. You would want to have them as stereo speakers as much as you
would want NS10s, ie. not at all. So, get powered and biamped if possible.
If you have an extroardinary power amp lying around, get unpowered over
powered, non biamped. Otherwise, get the powered version.

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 17:27:49 1999
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Edwin Hurwitz <edwin@indra.com>
Subject: Re: speaker question again
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>My problem is that it takes me several weeks to learn these shortcomings....I
>am trying to find a pair of powered monitors for my studio, and am considering
>Event 20/20's, the Mackies, and the KRK V8's, as well as any other good
>suggestions. It is very difficult trying to compare them in Guitar Center,
>that's for sure, and it would look kinda funny if you purchase several sets of
>monitors in order to return them two weeks later. Another problem is
>discerning what sounds good vs what sounds correct (and reveals flaws) is
>difficult to differentiate to my relatively untrained ear.
>
>
>Marshall

Blow off the guitar center and try to find a pro audio store. It may cost a
little more, but there's a very good chance they will loan you the speakers
or give you a good return policy. they will also more likely have a good
room in which to hear the monitors. The higher price comes out in the wash
as better customer service. Often people who work there have studio
experience and they aren't just drones to sell the flavor of the month
guitar to high school shredders. They will hopefully be able to steer you
in a good direction.

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 17:42:06 1999
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From: Hoover Alan <HooverA@tce.com>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: speaker question again
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:30:08 -0500 
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Good point.  Unfortunately, we are losing these pro audio stores because so
many people go to them to use their services, then go to the discount store
to make the final purchase.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Edwin Hurwitz [mailto:edwin@indra.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:42 PM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: speaker question again


>My problem is that it takes me several weeks to learn these
shortcomings....I
>am trying to find a pair of powered monitors for my studio, and am
considering
>Event 20/20's, the Mackies, and the KRK V8's, as well as any other good
>suggestions. It is very difficult trying to compare them in Guitar Center,
>that's for sure, and it would look kinda funny if you purchase several sets
of
>monitors in order to return them two weeks later. Another problem is
>discerning what sounds good vs what sounds correct (and reveals flaws) is
>difficult to differentiate to my relatively untrained ear.
>
>
>Marshall

Blow off the guitar center and try to find a pro audio store. It may cost a
little more, but there's a very good chance they will loan you the speakers
or give you a good return policy. they will also more likely have a good
room in which to hear the monitors. The higher price comes out in the wash
as better customer service. Often people who work there have studio
experience and they aren't just drones to sell the flavor of the month
guitar to high school shredders. They will hopefully be able to steer you
in a good direction.

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 18:39:26 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:23:34 -0800
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Very true.  Though, in an interesting mix, I've gotten very
good personal service at Grandma's Music and Sound, and the're
pretty competive with their prices, as they are also a 
mail order house.  In particular, they have a nice quiet
demo room filled with monitor speakers.

Jim

Hoover Alan wrote:
> 
> Good point.  Unfortunately, we are losing these pro audio stores because so
> many people go to them to use their services, then go to the discount store
> to make the final purchase.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edwin Hurwitz [mailto:edwin@indra.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:42 PM
> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject: Re: speaker question again
> 
> >My problem is that it takes me several weeks to learn these
> shortcomings....I
> >am trying to find a pair of powered monitors for my studio, and am
> considering
> >Event 20/20's, the Mackies, and the KRK V8's, as well as any other good
> >suggestions. It is very difficult trying to compare them in Guitar Center,
> >that's for sure, and it would look kinda funny if you purchase several sets
> of
> >monitors in order to return them two weeks later. Another problem is
> >discerning what sounds good vs what sounds correct (and reveals flaws) is
> >difficult to differentiate to my relatively untrained ear.
> >
> >
> >Marshall
> 
> Blow off the guitar center and try to find a pro audio store. It may cost a
> little more, but there's a very good chance they will loan you the speakers
> or give you a good return policy. they will also more likely have a good
> room in which to hear the monitors. The higher price comes out in the wash
> as better customer service. Often people who work there have studio
> experience and they aren't just drones to sell the flavor of the month
> guitar to high school shredders. They will hopefully be able to steer you
> in a good direction.
> 
> Edwin
> 
> Edwin Hurwitz
> Boulder CO
> http://www.indra.com/~edwin

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 19:08:42 1999
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Edwin Hurwitz wrote:

> >My problem is that it takes me several weeks to learn these shortcomings....

The dreaded Sam Ass has that convenient 30-return policy.  Take advantage of it.
Those Walmart bastards certainly have it coming to them.

My own recomendation would be towards unpowered JBL's.  I have heard a bunch of
them (though not recently) and anything other than their cheapest speakers sound
very musical to me.

Take that with some salt (more than a few grains, I would recomend), because I do
the first 85% of my mixing through a pair of Sony 7604 (?) headphones.  Most are
horrified when I tell them this, but no one has ever complained about my mixing.

Always listen to the final mix in at least three different car stereos before
making a cd.  I'm not the first to have said it, certainly, nor will I (I suspect)
be the last, but I believe more than most.

tdb2






--
Report: Many Rappers May Suffer From Unrealistically High Self-Images


WASHINGTON, DC--According to an American Psychological Association report
released Tuesday, a large percentage of U.S. rappers may suffer from
unrealistically high self-images, placing them at risk of a host of emotional
and interpersonal problems.

      The study--which examined the attitudes and self-perceptions of
over 600 MCs in hoods across the U.S., including Illtown, H-Town,
Strong Island, the Brooklyn Zoo, Harlem World and Long
Beach--found that nearly 95 percent of those surveyed suffered from a
distorted sense of their own prowess, particularly with regard to
wealth, sexual potency and influence over their peers.

      "While personal confidence is a vital aspect of building a healthy
self-image, an exaggerated sense of self can lead to trouble," APA
study head Dr. Judith Danziger said. "The overconfidence these
rappers display can have a wide range of negative consequences, from
humiliating defeat at the hands of a superior MC to getting a cap placed
in one's ass."

for the whole article go to:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3415/rappers_suffer.html


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 19:16:10 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:43:38 -0700
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Edwin Hurwitz <edwin@indra.com>
Subject: RE: speaker question again
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>Good point.  Unfortunately, we are losing these pro audio stores because so
>many people go to them to use their services, then go to the discount store
>to make the final purchase.
>

This is an evil thing to do. I even go to my pro audio store to by CD
blanks, etc. The are more expensive, but I would much rather have them in
business than save 12c a CD.

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 19:19:58 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 00:53:18 +0100
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From: Leonardo Cavallo <cavallo@dada.it>
Subject: RE: Yamaha NS10s
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At 10:49 04.01.99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>To further assist our friend with his buying decision, does anyone have
>>an opinion on powered vs. unpowered monitors?  Many manufacturers are
>>now making the same speakers in both versions.  Is using a separate amp
>>still the best way to go?
>>
>
>A good powered monitor is the way to go. A case in point is the Meyer HD1.


check out Yamaha MSP5 too. great speakers, bi-amplified, little boxes (all
metal chassis... they are really heavy)  made for mastering and studio
purposes. Great bass frequency response.   

ciao
leo

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 22:08:06 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:18:54 +0000
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Edwin,

Do you actually have any luck shopping in Boulder, let's say at Robb's?
I agree that  I'd rather patronize the local pro's, (and they do fairly
well on pricing) but I swear to god these sales people do not give a
crap about selling.  I ended up buying my VS-880 from Kraft Music in
Milwaukee (my former home town) because no one locally could answer my
questions on the unit.  Actually, the last guy  at Robb's that sold me
my Boss SP-202 was relatively helpful, but that was the first time in 4
years.

So maybe some pro places go under because of poor customer service.
Hire people that know the stuff they sell!  Seems like that is a biz
rule, don't it?

Jim
Boulder, CO

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 22:18:18 1999
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From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: Looping in DC
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FingerPaint will be performing at the opening reception of Darrly Dardenne,
an exhibit of paintings and mixed media. Wednesday Janury 13th, 1999 at The
Bar on 1416 U St. NW (next to Utopia)
202-588-7311 for more info.

Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

Shockwave audio featuring our newest release Primary Colors:Blue

                            www.fingerpaint.net  


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 22:26:11 1999
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From: Rik Myers <zanga@mindspring.com>
Subject: speaker question retort
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>So anyways,I want more sound. Given my amplification, and the size of my 
>space (approx 15 x 20 sq ft) Does anyone have any suggestions for 
>speakers? I still plan on working the NS's into the setup because I like 
>the high's so something in the mid to bottom range is what I think I am 
>looking for.

I use, and like, Bag End D10EX-B speakers. These are 2X10 cabs with a broad
frequency response (8 Hz to 20KHz) and mind blowing low end. There is a
"subwoofer" called the ELF driver (that's one of the two tens in the cab)
and a coax speaker with a "tweeter" hanging in the dome of the mid speaker
(the other ten). To make the ELF work, you need a special ELF processor (I
use the ELF-m2). The speakers are rated at 400 a side at 4 ohms. I use this
as a small PA system and the whole lot of us play through it. Small,
portable, loud, thumping...I'm delighted. But they can cost ya. I got mine
used off HC classifieds for a STEAL and picked up the processor new for
under dealer cost (its not the sort of item that moves quickly...it sat in
the music store for two years before I bought it).

I loop with them, our keyboardist loops with them, and we all loop vox with
them <- loop content

Hasta -> Rico

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 23:44:52 1999
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Does any one out there have and EDP and Footpedal for sale?  If so
please contact me with pricing info.  Thanks.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan  4 23:58:51 1999
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Does any one out there have and EDP and Footpedal for sale?  If so
please contact me with pricing info.  Thanks.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 00:32:10 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:46:35 -0800 (PST)
From: robert kolosowski <kolosoro@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: speaker question again
To: loopers -delight <loopers-delight@annihilist.com>
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one technique i use as an aid to mixing irrespective of speaker type
is to have a sample CD (generally one produced by the big budget
fellas) which has the tonal characteristics i wish to mimic and switch
between the two doing a type of mix matching. This assists me in
getting target values for bottom end, tops etc. without too much fuss.
regards
Robert

==

Robert Kolosowski
Kolosoro@Yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 04:12:13 1999
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Reply-To: <gnominus@earthling.net>
From: "Javier Miranda V." <gnominus@earthling.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: speaker question again
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:45:59 -0800
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SGV5LCB0aGF0J3MgZ3JlYXQgYWR2aWNlISAgSSB1c2VkIHRvIGRvIHRoYXQgd2l0aCBCZWF0bGVz
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X19fXw0KRE8gWU9VIFlBSE9PIT8NCkdldCB5b3VyIGZyZWUgQHlhaG9vLmNvbSBhZGRyZXNzIGF0
IGh0dHA6Ly9tYWlsLnlhaG9vLmNvbQ0KDQo=

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 08:25:40 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 05:05:19 -0800 (PST)
From: dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com>
Subject: acid
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Fellow Loopers,

Do any of you use the acid software?  How do you like it?

Dan




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Subject: Re: acid
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-----Original Message-----
From: dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com>


>Fellow Loopers,
>
>Do any of you use the acid software?  How do you like it?


I believe I tried it last year some time and it made my system crash. Can
you direct me to a reliable version?
Pete.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 10:50:55 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 00:24:50 +0900
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, the_wire@ukonline.co.uk,
        |||| Philip Pilgrim |||| <thelab@sprint.ca>,
        arcsound@ix.netcom.com (Archive Sound), Rob <rob@secret-secret.com>,
        Tom Carpenter <sales@concuss.globalnet.co.uk>,
        "P. M. Herman" <phermn@womble.netkonect.co.uk>,
        Wolfram Franke <wmf@tsi-gmbh.de>,
        tim gerwing <tgerwing@pacificcoast.net>,
        "Collins" <collinsclan@sprintmail.com>, Syntecno <syntecno@xs4all.nl>,
        "Joseph Buck" <josephbuck@hotmail.com>, jeffrey@i-2000.com,
        Yasuo Matsunaka <matunaka@rittor-music.co.jp>,
        Guy-Marc Hinant <guymarc@switchon.be>, fred walheer <fw@switchon.be>,
        "Hugo Haesaert" <sky36919@skynet.be>, "EMIS" <EMIS@dial.pipex.com>,
        info@czukay.de, tenebre@pronet.it, vinylhead@theglobe.com,
        artzero@hol.fr, masset.fcom@wanadoo.fr, mieko@wolfen.netkonect.co.uk,
        morand.fcom@wanadoo.fr, robinr@easynet.co.uk, prikos@worldnet.fr,
        Luca de Marinis <loop@entranet.co.uk>,
        hiroshi-yamazaki@kingrecords.co.jp, interval@netcom.com,
        Fred Becker <mach25@inow.com>, John Greczula <janos@execulink.com>,
        Wine Cntry <WineCntry@aol.com>, R-MODE@webtv.net (Rod Julian Modell),
        shimoda@xebec.co.jp, the_wire@ukonline.co.uk, enkel@tripnet.se,
        umu@cerbernet.co.uk, Update2@emf.org, drumfm@hotmail.com,
        Rapida Bim Padmasankha <r_padmasankh@ACAD.FANDM.EDU>,
        eloubet@gol.com (eLoubet), "Paul D'Amato" <sevin@worldnet.att.net>,
        "Matt and Kristy McCabe" <mkmccabe@earthlink.net>,
        "Laz Harris" <Laz_Harris@sweetwater.com>,
        "Kenny Bergle" <Kenny_Bergle@sweetwater.com>, asciiman@inetnow.net,
        jp.com@okay.net, Polyfusion@aol.com,
        "micke walter" <vinylhead@theglobe.com>
From: Sunao Inami <cave@pop1.osk.3web.ne.jp>
Subject: Kazuhisa Uchihashi lecture via Real Video
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Hi friends,

Information:

A guitarist, Kazuhisa Uchihashi special lecture via Real Video streaming
from Kobe,Japan.

At 8th Jan 13:00-15:00(Japanese time) GMT is 8th AM4:00-6:00
(I guess LA is 7th 20:00 - 22:00,NYC is 7th 23:00 - 8th 1:00)


URL is
http://www.kobedenshi.ac.jp/event/lecture/
or
http://www.kobedenshi.ac.jp/event/lecture/live.ram

direct connect by Real Player
pnm://realserver.kobedenshi.ac.jp/studio

Kazuhisa Uchihashi official web site:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/ro/bonbon/

You need a Real Player 5.0 or G2 for enjoy this streaming.
if you don't have it,please get Real Player from www.real.com

  Regards

  Sunao Inami


Work
E-mail                          webmaster@cavestudio.com
URL"CAVE Studio"         http://www.cavestudio.com
tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5025 Hyogo,Japan

Home
E-mail                          cave@osk.3web.ne.jp
tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5015 Hyogo,Japan

snail mail address       316 Ohshima
                                    Kuchiyokawa
                                    Miki City
                                    Hyogo
                                    Japan
                                    6730755


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 10:59:30 1999
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Message-Id: <199901051537.HAA20022@scv3.apple.com>
Subject: JamMan, Vortex FS
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 09:39:30 -0600
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From: Travis Hartnett <hartnett.t@apple.com>
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>From Harmony Central.  If you're interested, respond to the e-mail 
address at the bottom of the ad, not to me.

Travis Hartnett


**********************************************************
Dealer Ad: Lexicon, TC, etc..................................

Asking Price: US$N/A
Condition: Excellent
Age: N/A
Description:

       (2) T.C. Electronics Stereo Chorus/Flanger pedals:
       Both still in box w/plastic & manual.......................$235.00 
ea.

       (2) Lexicon LXP-15's w/manuals:.........................$400.00 ea.

       (1) Lexicon LXP-5: w/manual:..............................$200.00

       (1) Lexicon Jamman: w/manual:...........................$200.00

       (3) Lexicon Vortex's: w/manual:........................... $150.00
       w/manual & F.S....................$175.00

Seller: Jim Russell, 
E-mail: jrusdenton@aol.com (Profile)
Post Date: 1/5/99

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 11:02:56 1999
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Message-ID: <01BE38CA.CEA82D70.mpeters@csi.com>
From: Michael Peters <mpeters@csi.com>
To: "'Loopers Delight'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: PlusEbow
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:45:02 +0100
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has anyone tried the new PlusEbow? Is it any good compared to the old one?

*	Michael Peters:	mpeters@csi.com
*	escape veloopity:	electronic guitar loop music
*			http://listen.to/michaelpeters




From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 11:59:32 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:40:07 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Chuck Zwicky <chuck.zwicky@wavefront.com>
Subject: Re: acid
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I have used this program, and I really like it.
Don't expect the bootleg floating around to be a stable program.
Buy the actual release.


At 02:29 PM 1/5/99 -0000, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com>
>
>
>>Fellow Loopers,
>>
>>Do any of you use the acid software?  How do you like it?
>
>
>I believe I tried it last year some time and it made my system crash. Can
>you direct me to a reliable version?
>Pete.
>
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 11:59:42 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:45:20 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Chuck Zwicky <chuck.zwicky@wavefront.com>
Subject: Re: PlusEbow
In-Reply-To: <01BE38CA.CEA82D70.mpeters@csi.com>
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It is very interesting. The octave feature is a little too predictable, but
very cool, nonetheless.

At 04:45 PM 1/5/99 +0100, you wrote:
>has anyone tried the new PlusEbow? Is it any good compared to the old one?
>
>*	Michael Peters:	mpeters@csi.com
>*	escape veloopity:	electronic guitar loop music
>*			http://listen.to/michaelpeters
>
>
>
>
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 12:05:18 1999
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Date: 05 Jan 99 10:52:01 -0600
From: Ben Riesman <briesman@pri.org>
Subject: EDP
To: "Loopers-Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
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Anyone want to sell me a used EDP?

briesman@pri.org


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> >Fellow Loopers,
> >Do any of you use the acid software?  How do you like it?
> I believe I tried it last year some time and it made my system crash. Can
> you direct me to a reliable version?

I use Acid Music and cannot reccomend it enough. It cost less than $70
at my local computer store (list is $99) and is rock solid on my measley
P166. There are various versions which have been discussed here before
but IMO Acid Music is the one to get as it has unlimited tracks and as
far as I can tell all the features of the original Acid 1.0. The Full
version now has some extra whistles and bells (DSP stuff which requires
a lot more firepower in your PC) and lists at $399.00 and the mini
versions (Acid Rock and Acid Techno) are limited in tracks and
functionality and cost $49 List. For the extra few bucks getting ACID
music really made sense for me.

As a piece of software it's incredibly intuitive. I generally use it for
noise collage stuff or remixes of other tracks but there's no reason it
couldn't be used for a composition from start to finish. Of course they
give you 100s of prerecorded loops which aren't that original but
there's some good fodder even in those and you can always import your
own loops and do whatever you want with them. 

I usually don't speak up for software but in this case Acid Music hit it
right on the head with the right combination of powerful software than
encourages creativity rather than limits it with esoteric functionality
or an annoying interface and the price point is dead on. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
     HELP WANTED PRODUCTIONS - Http://www.voicenet.com/~legion
"Bringing you the best in Organic Electronic music since we started..."
     
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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 12:51:53 1999
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In a message dated 1/5/99 10:04:43 AM, mpeters@csi.com writes:

>has anyone tried the new PlusEbow? Is it any good compared to the old one?

I have one, it sounds great- it has a switch that allows you to obtain tones
an octave higher, which is very cool. I have never played the older ones, but
it seems to get compareable tones (anyone for Heroes?), very smooth, no
harshness, good attack times once you know where to play it.

Marshall

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 11:03:06 -0000
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>Good point.  Unfortunately, we are losing these pro audio stores because so
>many people go to them to use their services, then go to the discount store
>to make the final purchase.

Yes, this is a problem, but usually these pro audio stores will meet 
price points if they can confirm a price quote.  Most of these stores 
have _more_ flexability than a GC or Musicians Enemy as far as price 
goes.  Furthermore, try getting service after the sale at your local bulk 
outlet.  You know the types of places:  Bunches of acne-faced teenagers 
who know next to nothing about the products they are suposed to be 
representing, and if in this sea of mass market carnage you are able to 
find a knowledgeable salesperson, you can rest assured that they won't be 
around the mega-mart music shope for long.

I may sound a bit bitter, but I've spent time as a retail sales 
consultant in "high-end" pro audio shopes and have had more than my share 
of customers come to me wanting to see all of the cool features and 
expansion potental in "x-synth" or "x-effects device" which I would 
happily take several hours to show them, only to have them bring in the 
device in question for service six months later.  When I would ask them 
where they bought it, they'd invaribaly sight one of the 
mega-music-all-things-to-everyone(except-for-service)-stores.  They'd 
usually tell me that they got it for $50.00 less or that tax was lower in 
that area. 

You know, find a store (or better yet, a salesperson) you can trust and 
work with this person.  If price is an important issue, ask them to match 
a quote:  Most good salespersons will not loose a sale over price.  Then 
not only do you have a cool new gizzy, you've also got something just as 
important:  a human resource.

Now I know that some of you probably live in areas away from any good 
music stores, but even the small ones can order stuff for you, and if you 
pay a bit more, look at as supporting the local economy.  For those of 
you living in big cities, seek out knowledgeable professionals and stick 
with them, because once the independent, service oreinted stores are 
gone, all we'll have are GCs etc.


-doug


p.s.  I'm currently listening to Amon Tobin's _Permiatations_ which has 
some PHAT loops. Check it out.  (There's your looping content)

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 13:32:11 1999
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I have a few questions for all you Akai MPC 2000 users out there:

- how do you set up several track layers, and turn them on and off again
using the pads? this is something I would really want to use live.
(sorry, my manual is in French and I'm having problems finding this
function)

- have any of you been using it to set up sequences with MIDI commands
for controlling loopers and other stuff?

I would appreciate hearing anything concerning live usage of the MPC
2000 etc. - thanks in advance!




rob
-the man cable-



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 13:32:44 1999
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From: Paul.C.Wright@ercgroup.com
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I have the new one (thanks, bobdog), after years of playing the old one, and
also like the octave feature.  The signal also seems stronger, though I am
using a different guitar with much better pickups.  I think that it's a good
buy, particularly for someone who wants to mimic Frippic stuff quickly.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marzzz@aol.com [mailto:Marzzz@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:44 AM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: PlusEbow



In a message dated 1/5/99 10:04:43 AM, mpeters@csi.com writes:

>has anyone tried the new PlusEbow? Is it any good compared to the old one?

I have one, it sounds great- it has a switch that allows you to obtain tones
an octave higher, which is very cool. I have never played the older ones,
but
it seems to get compareable tones (anyone for Heroes?), very smooth, no
harshness, good attack times once you know where to play it.

Marshall

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 13:37:16 1999
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As far as pc-based software goes, I've found Samplitude from Sek'd to be
pretty powerful and easy to use. It doesn't have MIDI functionality
though. As far as "real" toys go, I recently bought a MPC 2000 which is
excellent as a sequencer/ sampler, especially for rhythmic stuff. I
suppose it depends on where you want to use these things (i.e. live or
studio) and how much stuff you want to be able to have ready in advance
(i.e. arrangements, 100% improv or somewhere in between).

rob
-the man cable-

ur eye schrieb:
> 
> Hi folks, Well, I find myself thinking about my loops the next day. I
> think that means that I am ready to look for a sampling device. I'm
> going to try Cool edit for now but I would like to know what others are
> using in terms of samplers and/or software. Maybe a post-party listing
> of what you all are presently using would be of interest to others as
> well.
> Thanks again and again
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 14:06:48 1999
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Cummings wrote:

> I have a few questions for all you Akai MPC 2000 users out there:
> - how do you set up several track layers, and turn them on and off again
> using the pads? this is something I would really want to use live.
> (sorry, my manual is in French and I'm having problems finding this
> function)

woah! Can the MPC2000 do this? As in mute tracks live using the pads
assigned to the tracks like an old Alessis MMT8 sequencer? Please let me
know as well!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
     HELP WANTED PRODUCTIONS - Http://www.voicenet.com/~legion
"Bringing you the best in Organic Electronic music since we started..."
     
Home of the Unusual Instrument and Recording Gallery with pictures and
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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 14:31:51 1999
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Subject: Re: acid
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There is -- at least, there used to be -- a free demo available. It works
quite well and will give you an opportunity to check out the software.

Try
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/

Cheers,

Howard

At 10:40 AM 1/5/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I have used this program, and I really like it.
>Don't expect the bootleg floating around to be a stable program.
>Buy the actual release.
>
>
>At 02:29 PM 1/5/99 -0000, you wrote:
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>>Fellow Loopers,
>>>
>>>Do any of you use the acid software?  How do you like it?
>>
>>
>>I believe I tried it last year some time and it made my system crash. Can
>>you direct me to a reliable version?
>>Pete.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
==========================================================
Howard Harawitz      howard@brooknorth.com              
==========================================================
Brooklyn North Software Works Inc.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada 
Telephone: 1-902-423-0257
==========================================================
Check the Halifax Harbor Cam: http://www.brooknorth.com/camsite/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 17:13:11 1999
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Simon <simon@dynamite.com.au>
Subject: Re: MPC 2000 techniques
Cc: r_t_cummings@csi.com, legion@voicenet.com
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>I have a few questions for all you Akai MPC 2000 users out there:
>
>- how do you set up several track layers, and turn them on and off again
>using the pads? this is something I would really want to use live.

>From the Main Screen, move the cursor to the Track On/Off field, press the
Open Window button and you will then be in the Track mute screen. Here each
of the 64 sequencer tracks is assigned to a seperate drum pad and can be
turned on and off in real time as the sequences are playing.


>(sorry, my manual is in French and I'm having problems finding this
>function)

The MPC manuals are available as Adobe Acrobat .PDF documents, as well as
OS upgrades, from the Akai EMI website, it's address is...

http://www.akai.com/akaipro/index.html

Click on Downloads from the menu, there you will find the .PDF manuals for
the different MPC2000 OS version, there is a version 1.0 manual, plus
updates for OS versions 1.31, 1.50, 1.70. There is a link to the actual OS
updates as well.

Also, there is a free Sounds download page, where each month Akai posts a
free set of MPC2000 sounds, as well as a free set of S-Series sampler
sounds.


>- have any of you been using it to set up sequences with MIDI commands
>for controlling loopers and other stuff?

I have been using it for controlling other gear from the sequencer, not
loopers, but normal MIDI synths and samplers.


>I would appreciate hearing anything concerning live usage of the MPC
>2000 etc. - thanks in advance!

A good place for this sort of question would be the Akai mailing list,
discussing mostly Akai samplers and MPCs, it's subscribe info is as
follows...

  Welcome to the Akai samplers mailing list.  As the name implies,
  this list exists to discuss all models of Akai sampler, from the
  S612 to the S3200XL.  This list is not moderated, but please try
  to stay on topic.

  Messages to the list go to "akai@cloudfactory.org".
  Subscription/unsubscription requests go to "majordomo@cloudfactory.org".

So if you want to subscribe to is, send a messgae to
majordomo@cloudfactory.org with subscribe akai in the body of the message.


Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 17:33:45 1999
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In a message dated 1/5/99 12:33:44 PM Central Standard Time,
r_t_cummings@csi.com writes:

<< I have a few questions for all you Akai MPC 2000 users out there:
 
 (sorry, my manual is in French and I'm having problems finding this
 function) >>

You might want to download the english version off of thier website
(www.akaipro.com).... might be a little clearer. 

I'd help you out more, but I'm not sure I follow your first question, and
haven't tried to set up the second!!

Good luck. 
- Crossedout@aol.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 17:57:50 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:45:03 EST
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Subject: loopers delight cd vol.2 / loopers festival?
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hello all,
we (electric bird noise) wanna thank all involved for putting together such a
professional looking and sounding cd!
noticed some artist involved we're talking about putting on a show to promote
the cd in colorado. how bout some of us eastcoast/northeast artist putting one
together? since quite a few of you guys reside in the northern region
(ny,dc,ma...etc.) the northeast seems like the most feasible area to
potentially pull this off. so.......patrick smith,ed chang,frank
gerace,michael preston,david kirkdorffer,kevin miller....... any one
interested helping set up a loopers festival to promote this sucker?
thoughts?
brian

electric bird noise
http://members.aol.com/ebnoise/index.html   

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 18:27:39 1999
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From: Hawkeye255@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:20:56 EST
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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Subject: Re: loopers delight cd vol.2 / loopers festival?
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I would like to get both CD's if that's still possible.  Please tell me how
and any other particulars.

Thanks,
	Bill 'Hawkeye' Reiter

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 19:14:49 1999
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pittsburgh is the obvious place........michael

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 20:00:11 1999
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Hi Jeff,
where is your site?

rob
-the man cable-


Jeff & Vonda McLeod schrieb:
> 
> Hi, all...
>         Well, I've finally gotten around to getting a small site back up to
> promote my music and such. I figured I'd post here, as there are a couple
> of things of interest linked up from the site. One is a compilation called
> Pure Granulated Noise. 70 artists are invited to contribute one-minute
> tracks. There's more info linked from my site, so please check it out, if
> you're at all interested. I'll probably send everyone the info as well.
>         I hope to have some sound files up in the upcoming weeks, so I'll keep you
> all posted. Thanks for listening!
> Sincerely,
> Jeff McLeod
> __________________________________________
> This is not here--
> And now is almost over...



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 20:26:22 1999
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Message-ID: <3692BAD6.60808B82@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:22:35 -0600
From: Bobdog Catlin <psbuddha@texas.net>
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Subject: Re: PlusEbow
References: <01BE38CA.CEA82D70.mpeters@csi.com>
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it's fun to be able to get the harmonic overtone all the time instead of
(with me t least) once in a while on accident. & the purple led is
*fine*! my complaint would be that it should have a 2 color led; red for
normal, fine ass purple for harmonic.
did they discontinue the black one?

bobdog

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 20:43:14 1999
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Message-Id: <199901060135.UAA32150@ulster.net>
Subject: EDP Group Buy:  Backordered units on the Way
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 20:29:37 -0500
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hi all,

I spoke with John @ Alto Music today. He asked me to let everyone who 
ordered an EDP and/or Foot controller as part of the "EDP Group buy" know 
that 20 units w/ footpedals will be arriving from Gibson next week. The 
units have been backordered since November. Your credit cards will be 
charged once the units have been shipped to you. If you've changed your 
mind and wish to cancel your order just give a call & let the folks at 
Alto know.

He ordered a few extras,so anyone who wants to take adavantage of the 
price (EDP$560, EDP & Pedal $660 + shipping) contact John @ Alto Music 
(914) 692-6922 , (914) 692-5551 fax 10-6pm Monday through Saturday 

peace & happy looping...

jmw

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 21:09:41 1999
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From: Kriist@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:47:23 EST
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In a message dated 1/5/99 11:04:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, mpeters@csi.com
writes:

> 
>  has anyone tried the new PlusEbow? Is it any good compared to the old one?
>  
>  *	Michael Peters:	mpeters@csi.com
>  *	escape veloopity:	electronic guitar loop music
>  *			http://listen.to/michaelpeters
>  
>  
>  
I have an ebowplus
i love the thing
ive never used and old one so i dont know the diff
it has the harmonic mode which is great and its supposed to have a better
overall response

a must buy

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 23:06:20 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:09:35 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Mister McKnight <gonzo@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: acid
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At 05:05 AM 1/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Fellow Loopers,
>
>Do any of you use the acid software?  How do you like it?
>Dan

I like it a great deal. I got Acid Music and Acid DJ from
Best Buy for about $110. You need the Acid Music to get the 
unlimited tracks. DJ has more interesting techno wave files
than Music though. It has Acid Jazz, Dance, Industrial, and
House (I've been told by some techno enthusiasts that the
house waves not truly house style sounds, but I don't know).

I've had a lot of fun with it so far, but after making 6
songs, I've been trying to find ways to make some of the
loops fit better and sound less repetitive. It sounds good
to have some repetition for a while in a song but you have
to change it more often so you can keep the listener paying
attention to the work (IMHO anyway). 

I've made my own waves as well as taken a lot of free ones
off the web to play with (check www.loopmagazine.com for 
3 links to web pages that have free sample libraries). Some
problems I've encountered are getting the bpm adjusted properly,
getting a 4/4 measure out of the loop, and making sure the
loop begins and ends such that it sounds continuous.

What I am having problems with using Acid is trying to whip
up a drum n' bass tune. Most of the drum n' bass CD's I listen
to have several different variations of a similar drum beat.
You can't just lay down one drum loop from the DJ cd and then 
lay down another one at another point, you have to have fills and
the drum n' bass beat has a certain feel to it that cancels
out a lot of the beats on the cd.

Obviously this can't be done with Acid alone (at least not for me,
the novice). So I've been using this drum machine to generate a 
break-beat loop, and then make several changes to it as the tune 
grooves, attempting to give it the energy that a drum n' bass song
needs. You also need to get some good ambient and wah effect loops, 
as well as some interesting bass melodies. I've had problems finding
ambient loops on the web (but I hear it's trivial to make your own.
I even made a few with the qy90).

And still there are problems! I have a Yamaha qy90 and it just
doesn't have enough drums in it to do the deed! Argh.  I also have a Roland
SH-101 I'm using for some heavy bass and to make some noise. I
also have a guitar, 4-track recorder, digitech effects processor,
and a wah peddle, which should come in handy, since I could feed a 
loop from the sound card, through the wah peddle, to a 4-track 
recorder and then play the wahhed loop off the 4-track back into the
sound card. A lot of trouble, but I gotsta have that drum n' bass
feel...

I guess what I really need is an easy to use drum machine that's
also cheap. It's weird, ever since I jumped into this hobby I 
always want to buy more gear...argh...

Anybody have any advice for my troubles?

Thanks,
JM









From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 23:20:57 1999
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Subject: Re: acid
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 21:50:39 -0000
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>As a piece of software it's incredibly intuitive. I generally use it for
>noise collage stuff or remixes of other tracks but there's no reason it
>couldn't be used for a composition from start to finish. Of course they
>give you 100s of prerecorded loops which aren't that original but
>there's some good fodder even in those and you can always import your
>own loops and do whatever you want with them. 

There are some incredibly cool loops on ACID DJ, so even if you own 
'Music' you may want to get DJ just for the loops. It's only $40, and the 
loops alone...I've seen $200 discs that don't have nearly as good or as 
many loops.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 23:23:41 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:15:35 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: My web site...
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Rob,
It's at:

http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

Lemme know what you you think.

Jeff McLeod

At 08:50 PM 1/5/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi Jeff,
>where is your site?
>
>rob
>-the man cable-
>
>
>Jeff & Vonda McLeod schrieb:
>> 
>> Hi, all...
>>         Well, I've finally gotten around to getting a small site back up to
>> promote my music and such. I figured I'd post here, as there are a couple
>> of things of interest linked up from the site. One is a compilation called
>> Pure Granulated Noise. 70 artists are invited to contribute one-minute
>> tracks. There's more info linked from my site, so please check it out, if
>> you're at all interested. I'll probably send everyone the info as well.
>>         I hope to have some sound files up in the upcoming weeks, so
I'll keep you
>> all posted. Thanks for listening!
>> Sincerely,
>> Jeff McLeod
>> __________________________________________
>> This is not here--
>> And now is almost over...
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan  5 23:31:45 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:18:42 -0600
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From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: My web site...
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This is a re-post--since I FORGOT to include the URL in the last email!
Sorry, folks.
J.

Hi, all...
	Well, I've finally gotten around to getting a small site back up to
promote my music and such. I figured I'd post here, as there are a couple
of things of interest linked up from the site. One is a compilation called
Pure Granulated Noise. 70 artists are invited to contribute one-minute
tracks. There's more info linked from my site, so please check it out, if
you're at all interested. I'll probably send everyone the info as well.
	I hope to have some sound files up in the upcoming weeks, so I'll keep you
all posted. Thanks for listening!
Sincerely,
Jeff McLeod

http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan  6 00:06:29 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 20:18:24 -0800
Subject: Re: loopers delight cd vol.2 / loopers festival?
From: "Matt and Kristy McCabe" <mkmccabe@earthlink.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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>I would like to get both CD's if that's still possible.  Please tell me how
>and any other particulars.
>
>Thanks,
> Bill 'Hawkeye' Reiter

Bill,

Point your favorite browser to:

http://www.finleysound.com/Looper_CD.html

Volume 1 isn't currently available...but we are working on it.

Matt

__________________________________
Matthew F. McCabe
Finley Sound Design
http://www.finleysound.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan  6 00:24:20 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:11:14 -0600
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From: Mister McKnight <gonzo@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: Kazuhisa Uchihashi lecture via Real Video
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Will this be in English or have subtitled text or something?

Thanks,
JM


At 12:24 AM 1/6/99 +0900, you wrote:
>Hi friends,
>
>Information:
>
>A guitarist, Kazuhisa Uchihashi special lecture via Real Video streaming
>from Kobe,Japan.
>
>At 8th Jan 13:00-15:00(Japanese time) GMT is 8th AM4:00-6:00
>(I guess LA is 7th 20:00 - 22:00,NYC is 7th 23:00 - 8th 1:00)
>
>
>URL is
>http://www.kobedenshi.ac.jp/event/lecture/
>or
>http://www.kobedenshi.ac.jp/event/lecture/live.ram
>
>direct connect by Real Player
>pnm://realserver.kobedenshi.ac.jp/studio
>
>Kazuhisa Uchihashi official web site:
>http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/ro/bonbon/
>
>You need a Real Player 5.0 or G2 for enjoy this streaming.
>if you don't have it,please get Real Player from www.real.com
>
>  Regards
>
>  Sunao Inami
>
>
>Work
>E-mail                          webmaster@cavestudio.com
>URL"CAVE Studio"         http://www.cavestudio.com
>tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5025 Hyogo,Japan
>
>Home
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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan  6 01:54:10 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:46:09 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: loopers delight cd vol.2 / loopers festival?
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>I would like to get both CD's if that's still possible.  Please tell me how
>and any other particulars.
>

If you go to the top of the Looper's Delight website, you'll find links to
info on all the cd projects, including the link to marathon records where
you can buy the vol2 disks:

http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:03:12 -0800 (PST)
From: John Tidwell <wedgehed@yahoo.com>
Subject: DL/AM-8000 vs Vortex?
To: Loopers Delight <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
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Hi folks-

I've found a source that promises me a new (meaning
never opened or used) Vortex for $300. Now I'm seeing
letters about the two Korg products along with descrip-
tions of being Vortex-like. If memory serves, I think
the Korgs are selling for under $350. Would anyone
care to offer their .02 as to which one to buy, & why?

I presently own an EDP w/50 sec (soon to be 3 min) of
delay. I also have a Digitech 2112 & a 2101 Artist.
I usually use the EDP to loop distorted or clean sounds
from the 2101 & then let the 2112 provide stereo/pan/
phase effects to the loops.

I'm intrigued by all of the comments over the years
about the Vortex, but was completely unaware of the
Korg products until the recent letters.

Thanks for any help you can provide.






==
John Tidwell


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 07:02:53 +0000
From: Gareth Whittock <whiteoak@dial.pipex.com>
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Hey Guys,
Found this in the December issue of Sound on Sound Magazine, (UK)
Lex Jamman perfect condition NEVER USED!! 32 Sec memory expansion
£offers phone Brian 01304 822226

Gareth

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From: "Javier Miranda V." <gnominus@earthling.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: acid
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:38:04 -0800
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R3JlYXQgY29tbWVudHMsIEpNLiAgSSB3b3VsZCByZWNvbW1lbmQgdGhlIEJvc3MgRHIuIFJ5dGht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Subject: Re: acid
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     Hi all
     =

     I bought another of the ACID variants - "Ph1" - back in November. =A3=
79 =

     in the UK and approx $100 US. Seems to have replaced in the shops he=
re =

     already by "Music". Not sure if/what the difference is - it's much t=
he =

     same as the full px, without support for multiple sound cards, =

     effects, or MIDI/SMPTE synch, as I remember.
     =

     Definitely worth having, both for looping and as a multi-tracker, =

     although the latter is sometimes a bit harder to work with. The main=
 =

     px has been reviewed all over the place in the last few months - =

     Electronic Musician (Nov 1998), (just plain old) Musician =

     <http://www.musicianmag.com/tech/pick/jan.asp>, Sound On Sound (Nov =

     '98?), the current (Jan 99) issue of which contains a guest editoria=
l =

     decrying how easy ACID makes it for anyone to knock together a dance=
 =

     track, often using the author's sample discs...
     <http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/jan99/articles/soundingoff236.htm>
     =

     Not that ACID is solely dance-oriented. As several other have noted,=
 =

     its easy to use your own WAV's, there are some interesting "world" =

     loops a layer or two down in the directories, and also some samples =

     from DT's Pandora's Box collection if you search for them (or just =

     bump into 'em as I did).
     =

     If still in doubt, get a demo from the sonic foundry site or some of=
 =

     the cover discs. I had no problem with it, or the "proper" px. Its =

     both simple to use, or potentially V. deep (in terms of panning, =

     volume changes, using fragments of samples without needing to edit t=
he =

     original WAV etc) =

     =

     Cheers
     =

     David
     =

     (one ACID laced eg available at: =

     <http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/2495/ldb.mp3>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan  6 13:57:57 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 15:40:12 +0100
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Leonardo Cavallo <cavallo@dada.it>
Subject: Re: acid
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I have to say that Acid is the perfect tool for drum & bass programming.
Maybe you haven't tried the key S to chop the loop in all the parts you
want... tha basis for the breakbeat ;)

I use Acid a lot but rarely whole loops going on and on. I think it's pretty
boring in that way. BTW I mainly program my basic beats using other programs
or my sampler. Then I arrange and edit in Acid. 

If I had to buy a prog for the next decade that would be Acid. It's really
great and flexible (no warez... I had it for testing...) for ALL the musical
styles.

let me know it it's all clear ;)

ciao
leo

PS It's really hard to have seriuos d&b tracks using a drum machine. Use
only Acid with the classic breakbeats you can find on the Net and you'll
have great results. Check ftp://ftp.teklab.com/teklab/incoming/Freeform.mp3
for a little example. A lot of this comes from Acid (plus A3000, VST,
Wavesurgeon, Waves plugins, SoundForge, Wavelab, etc.....)  

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Among the many messages about the Korgs, someone asked:
<<I'm intrigued by all of the comments over the years
about the Vortex, but was completely unaware of the
Korg products until the recent letters.>>

I've had a Vortex as well as these Korg pups, so here's my $0.02:
There's really nothing like a Vortex--it was uniquely endowed with clever and
musical tricks (morphing, odd beat ratios, etc...), and many interface
weirdnesses and annoyances, never since duplicated. The Korgs can be similarly
described, but the tricks (and weirdnesses) of course are different.
The DL's strengths, IMHO, are its delay lengths, the stereo capability, and
the preset rhythms in ping-pong multitap mode. I haven't much explored its
modulation options, which are pretty rich, because the AM is there to do that
kind of thing. IT'S strengths, for me, are modulation and resonance. It's got
a good complement of filters, phasers, flangers, shifters, dopplers, mod
delays, and ring mod'ers, most of which can really sing, oscillate, and
bubble, using lfos built into the algorithms in question. Unfortunately, it
has no global lfos, BUT it does have FOUR exp-pedal inputs (seems to require
Korg EXP-2 pedals...EV-5s don't work well), and does  have pretty good MIDI
implementation, as well as mucho routing flexibility--plus the reverbs are not
at all bad, and they're in addition to the two identical FX blocks. For more
detail on both units, be sure to check out the Korg website, and my reviews of
them at harmony-central.com.
I believe Guitar Player Mag also reviewed them positively, as did Sound on
Sound Mag, which usually has old reviews available at their site.
Musician's Fiend is currently selling each one for $350, which is $30 less
than best price I had previously found. Retail is $600. 
Be glad to answer any more particular queries if I can...I don't believe
anyone looking for a powerful looper or a creative loop mangler would be
disappointed with these badly-marketed tools.
dpc

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What is the key S ?
How do you do this in Acid ?
BC
-----Original Message-----
From:	Leonardo Cavallo [mailto:cavallo@dada.it]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:40 AM
To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject:	Re: acid

I have to say that Acid is the perfect tool for drum & bass programming.
Maybe you haven't tried the key S to chop the loop in all the parts you
want... tha basis for the breakbeat ;)



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan  6 15:24:33 1999
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From: "Devious D_MasterMixer" <dj_devious_d@hotmail.com>
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Subject: RE: acid The S Key
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:17:43 PST
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The "S" Key is the split key.
It enables you to split the wave form at the cursor by hitting
"S" after you have selected the waveform, by highlighting it.


>>What is the key S ?
>How do you do this in Acid ?
>BC
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Leonardo Cavallo [mailto:cavallo@dada.it]
>Sent:	Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:40 AM
>To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>Subject:	Re: acid
>
>I have to say that Acid is the perfect tool for drum & bass 
programming.
>Maybe you haven't tried the key S to chop the loop in all the parts you
>want... tha basis for the breakbeat ;)
>
>
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: Thomas Rupolo <TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Digital recording
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:25:37 -0500
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For years I've been recording my Echoplex loops straight to cassette.
I'm looking to upgrade in sound quality so I can make better copies.  I
was wondering if anyone has tried mini-discs for this?  Or how about the
relatively inexpensive stand-alone CD burners? (They're running for
about $500 these days)  I'm still trying to keep my PC far away from my
music equipment, but I am considering buying a new PC and adding a CD
burner.

I have heard that you can only make 7 copies of a mini-disc master (to
prevent bootlegging), and I think I heard the same about CD burners.
This would kill my plan for making a master demo and copying it to
cassettes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan  6 22:56:12 1999
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Here's another feature that's just as useful: grab the pencil tool, hold 
it over the wave, click-hold the right mouse then click-hold the left 
mouse button, then SLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE that ol' wave left 'n' 
right for some SERIOUS EDITING. YOW!

>The "S" Key is the split key.
>It enables you to split the wave form at the cursor by hitting
>"S" after you have selected the waveform, by highlighting it.
>
>
>>>What is the key S ?
>>How do you do this in Acid ?
>>BC
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From:	Leonardo Cavallo [mailto:cavallo@dada.it]
>>Sent:	Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:40 AM
>>To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>>Subject:	Re: acid
>>
>>I have to say that Acid is the perfect tool for drum & bass 
>programming.
>>Maybe you haven't tried the key S to chop the loop in all the parts you
>>want... tha basis for the breakbeat ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

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In a message dated 1/6/99 8:38:15 PM Central Standard Time,
TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com writes:

<<  I
 was wondering if anyone has tried mini-discs for this?  Or how about the
 relatively inexpensive stand-alone CD burners? (They're running for
 about $500 these days) >>

I really like the Phillips 2600 cdd burner unit... I have one in a stand alone
case, but also able to interface with my pc.... have burned about 150 discs so
far and only two or three coasters...one because the fates shat on me that
day, one due to a loose cable, and one due to unfamiliar authoring
software.....

I have heard some good things done on minidisc, but look with suspicion at the
compression schemes and the jettising of "inaudable"/irrelevant
frequencies/material... that just sounds less than good, when cd's are almost
as easy an option.

 
<< I have heard that you can only make 7 copies of a mini-disc master (to
 prevent bootlegging), and I think I heard the same about CD burners.
 This would kill my plan for making a master demo and copying it to
 cassettes. >>


Not really, I think that applies to copying from disc to disc to disc, rather
than from a disc to cassette. I don't know about minidiscs, I know that some
AUDIO-ONLY cd burners have some of this bullshit intwined in them, that's why
I've given up plans to buy one... the computer cd burners, at least mine, have
no such limits... I have burned copies of discs, then run off copies for other
people without running into copy-protect snags. 

Good luck. 

- Crossedout@aol.com

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Thomas,
If you're looking for something to master on, you might be better off with
DAT, maybe something like the Tascam DA20MKII or the Fostex D5, both in the
price range you mentioned for a CD burner.
I do use a mini-disc deck, but in sort of an unusual way. It wouldn't be
that great for mastering, but if you've got a model with a REPEAT 1
function, you can load discs full of loops into it, using this as a sound
source to feed a delay or even to run straight. It can be a little tricky
to catch the beginning and end of the recording so it will loop properly,
but the MD allows you to edit a track without disturbing the rest of the
disc, something you're not able to do with a cassette deck.
It really is a poor man's sampler, though; you can't trigger it with MIDI,
you can't correct for pitch or speed without running it through an external
unit. You can record up to 25 items or 74 minutes (stereo, twice that in
mono) whichever comes first. But if you're using the MD to play loops,
you'll probably never come anywhere near the 74 minute mark, since the 25
track limit usually totals 8 or 10 minutes, unless you're doing really long
loops.
The track naming feature is useful in helping you access the contents of
the disc, and scrolling is almost instantaneous. It only takes a second or
so to locate a track and get it playing... Try THAT with cassette!
As far as copying the MD to cassette, the Serial Copy Management System
would not be a problem, since it doesn't apply to the analog outs. If you
want to go from MD to MD or MD to DAT, however, the digital outs permit
only first generation copies. You COULD copy to MD or DAT using the analog
outs, though, but that kind of defeats the purpose of digital recording
even though it's still a lot better than cassette!
Since you've already got an Echoplex, the MD would be, by comparison, of
limited usefulness for looping. It is, however, an affordable way to get
more loops going at the same time.
You'd probably also be better off with DAT than a CD burner for mastering,
at least until CD-Rs become a dependable re-writable medium. They get
pretty expensive.
Hope this has been some help...

; At 09:25 PM 1/6/99 -0500, Thomas Rupolo wrote:
>
>For years I've been recording my Echoplex loops straight to cassette.
>I'm looking to upgrade in sound quality so I can make better copies.  I
>was wondering if anyone has tried mini-discs for this?  Or how about the
>relatively inexpensive stand-alone CD burners? (They're running for
>about $500 these days)  I'm still trying to keep my PC far away from my
>music equipment, but I am considering buying a new PC and adding a CD
>burner.
>
>I have heard that you can only make 7 copies of a mini-disc master (to
>prevent bootlegging), and I think I heard the same about CD burners.
>This would kill my plan for making a master demo and copying it to
>cassettes.
>
>Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
>

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In a message dated 1/6/99 8:38:15 PM Central Standard Time,
TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com writes:

<< I have heard that you can only make 7 copies of a mini-disc master (to
 prevent bootlegging), and I think I heard the same about CD burners.
 This would kill my plan for making a master demo and copying it to
 cassettes.  Any help would be greatly appreciated! >>

I've used a Yamaha 4-track minidisc (MD4) to record my Echoplex 'wanderings'
and I've never seen any 7-disc restriction.  And I've burned dozens of copies
to CD in my computer and never run into any restriction either.

	'Hawkeye'

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        Dear Listfolk,                                            1/6
        Just received my March '99 issue of Guitar Shop and to my utter
        disbelief, amazement, astonishment, etc., hidden away in the 
        middle of the normally bland guitar rag, is a David Torn interview!
        Although Adrian Belew and Rush(!) are featured, the DT interview
        makes it worthwhile. It's got a cool list of his effects and pedals
        but sadly, no scary science project schematics, guess they had 
        to make room for Dimebag Darrel's oh so bitchin' set-up.(save your
        applause please) Anyway, check it out. A good(if entirely too short)
        interview and some nice pictures to boot.
                                    O.K., I'm a fan. So sue me!
                                             Chris Olden

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Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:20:23 -0600
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Subject: Re: acid
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At 03:40 PM 1/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
>I have to say that Acid is the perfect tool for drum & bass programming.
>Maybe you haven't tried the key S to chop the loop in all the parts you
>want... tha basis for the breakbeat ;)

Yeah. I should definitely RTF online pdf file. I wish software 
would come with a printed manual like the old days...

>I use Acid a lot but rarely whole loops going on and on. I think it's pretty
>boring in that way. BTW I mainly program my basic beats using other programs
>or my sampler. Then I arrange and edit in Acid. 
>
>If I had to buy a prog for the next decade that would be Acid. It's really
>great and flexible (no warez... I had it for testing...) for ALL the musical
>styles.
>
>PS It's really hard to have seriuos d&b tracks using a drum machine. Use
>only Acid with the classic breakbeats you can find on the Net and you'll
>have great results. Check ftp://ftp.teklab.com/teklab/incoming/Freeform.mp3
>for a little example. A lot of this comes from Acid (plus A3000, VST,
>Wavesurgeon, Waves plugins, SoundForge, Wavelab, etc.....)  

I'll definitely keep this in mind. That mp3 file sounds pretty cool.






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SXMgdGhlcmUgYSB3YXkgdG8gZG93bmxvYWQgdGhlIGRpZ2l0YWwgV0FWIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGlu
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-----Original Message-----
From: Crossedout@aol.com <Crossedout@aol.com>



><< I have heard that you can only make 7 copies of a mini-disc master (to
> prevent bootlegging), and I think I heard the same about CD burners.
> This would kill my plan for making a master demo and copying it to
> cassettes. >>
>
>
>Not really, I think that applies to copying from disc to disc to disc,
rather
>than from a disc to cassette. I don't know about minidiscs, I know that
some
>AUDIO-ONLY cd burners have some of this bullshit intwined in them, that's
why
>I've given up plans to buy one... the computer cd burners, at least mine,
have
>no such limits... I have burned copies of discs, then run off copies for
other
>people without running into copy-protect snags.
>


'morning all,
It's also worth bearing in mind that some brands of PC CD burners have a
short run-life. HP burners, apparently, have a counter inside them which
registers how many CDs you have made, regardless of what they are. Once the
counter reaches 1000 the burner feels perfectly within its rights to start
irreparably malfunctioning.
Pete.

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From: "Bill Cummings" <billcumm@sprynet.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: drum machine for D&B
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 07:40:43 -0500
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I've heard that the new Boss DR202 drum machine is geared to Drum and Bass,
and other electonic styles.
>
>I guess what I really need is an easy to use drum machine that's
>also cheap. It's weird, ever since I jumped into this hobby I
>always want to buy more gear...argh...
>
>Anybody have any advice for my troubles?
>
>Thanks,
>JM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 11:15:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Digital recording
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Crossedout@aol.com <Crossedout@aol.com>

>'morning all,
>It's also worth bearing in mind that some brands of PC CD burners have a
>short run-life. HP burners, apparently, have a counter inside them which
>registers how many CDs you have made, regardless of what they are. Once the
>counter reaches 1000 the burner feels perfectly within its rights to start
>irreparably malfunctioning.
>Pete.

I hope this is facetious. Or someone knows how toset those counters back on
Yamaha units. I intend to burn quite a few discs!

Edwin
<shameless self promotion>
PS If anyone needs anything transferred to discs, I am very reasonable!
</shameless self promotion>

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


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Subject: RE: Digital recording
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No flame meant, as I'm not sure if this reply is facetious, but you may want
to be a little more careful about making a statement that may be considered
slanderous or libelous (can you slander or libel a product?).  You never
know if it's a company rep. behind that screen name, and how they may take
your comments in such a wide-open forum.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edwin Hurwitz [mailto:edwin@indra.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 10:13 AM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Digital recording


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Crossedout@aol.com <Crossedout@aol.com>

>'morning all,
>It's also worth bearing in mind that some brands of PC CD burners have a
>short run-life. HP burners, apparently, have a counter inside them which
>registers how many CDs you have made, regardless of what they are. Once the
>counter reaches 1000 the burner feels perfectly within its rights to start
>irreparably malfunctioning.
>Pete.

I hope this is facetious. Or someone knows how toset those counters back on
Yamaha units. I intend to burn quite a few discs!

Edwin
<shameless self promotion>
PS If anyone needs anything transferred to discs, I am very reasonable!
</shameless self promotion>

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 13:38:14 1999
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From: "Jonathan El-Bizri" <jbiz@linkexchange.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Digital recording
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:34:01 -0800
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>
> 'morning all,
> It's also worth bearing in mind that some brands of PC CD burners have a
> short run-life. HP burners, apparently, have a counter inside them which
> registers how many CDs you have made, regardless of what they
> are. Once the
> counter reaches 1000 the burner feels perfectly within its rights to start
> irreparably malfunctioning.
> Pete.
>
>

AYFR? I thought it only counted to about 50 :>

I have been using an HP Shurestore for quite a while now, but I'm sure I
never got to a thousand cd before the thing crapped out and had to be
returned. So basicly, HP send me a new cd burner every year or so thanks to
the warrantee.

Jonathan El-Bizri

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>'morning all,
>It's also worth bearing in mind that some brands of PC CD burners have a
>short run-life. HP burners, apparently, have a counter inside them which
>registers how many CDs you have made, regardless of what they are. Once the
>counter reaches 1000 the burner feels perfectly within its rights to start
>irreparably malfunctioning.
>Pete.

seems sort of unlikely to me, especially with a company like HP. Could be
some reliability problem in one of their drives that causes them to fail,
and it just seems intentional.....

No, we computer industry folks don't need tricks like that to make you buy
new gear. That stuff is for light bulb manufacturers. We just do things
like introduce unnecessary new standards and technologies that are
incompatible with the old ones, or add some pointless set of new features
each year, or introduce new software versions that for the most part are
just bigger and slower than the old ones so that you feel you need a faster
machine to use it. And then we hype it mercilessly so that you all think
you must have this new thing and replace your perfectly good old stuff with
it. And then we do it to you again next year. 450MHz, 6G HD, 256MB SDRAM
might make you a stud today, but we'll make sure you think it's scrap metal
in a few months. You all keep falling for it, so we have no plans to change
this strategy. My stock portfolio thanks you. :-)

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 15:20:38 1999
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From: David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer@exapps.com>
To: Loopers Delight <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: DL/AM-8000 vs Vortex?
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:40:59 -0500 
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The vortex is unique.  It's a little odd. Stereo shows the best side of the
device.  No midi at all.  Smooth hi-quality sounding stuff.   It has
multi-tap (2) capabilities, and good panning, trem., vibrato, resonator
effects.  There are 16 or so parameters to modify.  There are 32 User
defined sound areas (16A + 16B).  Two second looping capbility if you set
things a certtain way.  These are plenty for me when compbined w/other
effects....  The manual is pretty good at walking you around a unique and
different device.  Uses a wall-wart for power

The Korgs have extensive midi control.  Stereo would show the best side of
these effects too.  Manuals are short and could be much more helpful.  They
use an odd wall-wart (to my limited experience) -- where the "wart" is in
the middle of a longer power chord.  Good quality sounds too.  

AM - this is the one with the wider range of shape shifting effects I think
(i don't have it, but this is what I've picked up...)  Modulators, panning
trem / vibrato, distortions.  Also has reverbs.  Seems to have lots of
parameters to tweek.  More wacky sounds (I'm guessing!).

DL - this is the one with 10 secons mono -- or  4.8 seconds stereo looping.
I have this just recently.  Multi-tap capabilities (three per side L-R).
Lots of patterns to the taps.  Panning Chorus, flange, trem / vibrato.  Lots
of parameters to tweek.  More of a "Delay." Delays can be synced with
incoming signals.  Would be way cool for keys and sequencers I think -- to
really screw around w/tempos.

Hope that helps.

dk

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	John Tidwell [SMTP:wedgehed@yahoo.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 06, 1999 2:03 AM
> To:	Loopers Delight
> Subject:	DL/AM-8000 vs Vortex?
> 
> Hi folks-
> 
> I've found a source that promises me a new (meaning
> never opened or used) Vortex for $300. Now I'm seeing
> letters about the two Korg products along with descrip-
> tions of being Vortex-like. If memory serves, I think
> the Korgs are selling for under $350. Would anyone
> care to offer their .02 as to which one to buy, & why?
> 
> I presently own an EDP w/50 sec (soon to be 3 min) of
> delay. I also have a Digitech 2112 & a 2101 Artist.
> I usually use the EDP to loop distorted or clean sounds
> from the 2101 & then let the 2112 provide stereo/pan/
> phase effects to the loops.
> 
> I'm intrigued by all of the comments over the years
> about the Vortex, but was completely unaware of the
> Korg products until the recent letters.
> 
> Thanks for any help you can provide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ==
> John Tidwell
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 15:41:28 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:57:57 EST
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In a message dated 1/7/99 2:09:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
DKirkdorffer@exapps.com writes:

> Frank G and I are in Boston.  We could pull something together here, is my
>  guess.
>  
sounds promising
lets see if we can get some of the others interested (finger
paint,dreamchild,ed chang etc.)
brian

electric bird noise
http://members.aol.com/ebnoise/index.html

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Subject: Re: Digital recording
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My comments regarding counters in PC burners were based on information from
my PC repair shop. I also have two colleagues whose burners have packed in
as they approached the 1000 CD mark. If any manufacturer can disprove the
presence of a counter then, let's hear from them. I am willing to aopologise
if I have forwarded misinformation. I would like to be wrong about this as
it smacks of dishonesty, something we can all do without.
Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul.C.Wright@ercgroup.com <Paul.C.Wright@ercgroup.com>


>No flame meant, as I'm not sure if this reply is facetious, but you may
want
>to be a little more careful about making a statement that may be considered
>slanderous or libelous (can you slander or libel a product?).  You never
>know if it's a company rep. behind that screen name, and how they may take
>your comments in such a wide-open forum.



>>'morning all,
>>It's also worth bearing in mind that some brands of PC CD burners have a
>>short run-life. HP burners, apparently, have a counter inside them which
>>registers how many CDs you have made, regardless of what they are. Once
the
>>counter reaches 1000 the burner feels perfectly within its rights to start
>>irreparably malfunctioning.
>>Pete.
>
>I hope this is facetious. Or someone knows how toset those counters back on
>Yamaha units. I intend to burn quite a few discs!
>
>Edwin




From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 16:53:59 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:19:57 EST
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i thought it was interesting in the adrian interview that he talks about
looping a lot also. i was looking at the belew video, electronic guitar, last
night and his stuff with the eh 16 second delay is awesome. i am totally
psyched to hear the loops he does now. even though adrian has been kind of
"poppy" these days i still think he has a lot of cutting edge music still in
him. =-) PJ

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 17:41:06 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:33:14 +0200
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: Re: loopers delight cd vol.2 / loopers festival?
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>In a message dated 1/7/99 2:09:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>DKirkdorffer@exapps.com writes:
>
>> Frank G and I are in Boston.  We could pull something together here, is my
>>  guess.
>>
>sounds promising
>lets see if we can get some of the others interested (finger
>paint,dreamchild,ed chang etc.)
>brian


Well FingerPaint is always interested in a new city. It's a bit of a trek
from DC to Boston. Someone mentioned Pittsburgh the other day.  Could Ed
Chang set up something in New York. We could definately set up a gig here
in DC, but with my best efforts, it's always hard to get an audience for
the more experimental type of music around here.

Hell it does not even need to be far off the beaten muiscal grove and it's
still hard to draw a crowd.

Perhpas we should take this discussion off the list though.

Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

Shockwave audio featuring our newest release Primary Colors:Blue

                            www.fingerpaint.net  


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 19:02:49 1999
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Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:50:59 EST
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In a message dated 1/7/99 7:12:25 AM Central Standard Time,
billcumm@sprynet.com writes:

<< I've heard that the new Boss DR202 drum machine is geared to Drum and Bass,
 and other electonic styles. >>

This is true, but it's also difficult to manuever through without the manual,
doesn't sound really good (IMHO), and is built more like a toy than a tool.
True, the filters are fun to play with, but while I was test driving it, I
found myself more often than not crawling into a corner that couldn't be
backed out of, and having to turn the machine on and off. 

If you have nothing, it might be worthwhile, but I'd personally wait and see
if it sells at all, or if you can pick it up this fall for half the price when
Roland unveils it's "new(est) hot techno/d'n'b/electro-box"... like they seem
to be doing every three months now. 

And I will come clean, lest I offend any big fans of the 202 out there, that I
was checking into it for a friend who was interested but wanted my opinion,
and was trying it out in the store, with headphones and no manual to work
from, not plugged into my monitors and tweaking it for hours in the comfort of
my own home.  But judging from my previous experience with Roland manuals, I'm
not sure it would have helped anyway. 

- Crossedout@aol.com

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      PJ,                                                          1/7
      Yeah, I thought it was interesting as well that Adrian mentioned looping
      so prominently in his as well. Although, I think that DT is right about 
      looping not catching on yet. I almost have the feeling that people see
it
      as a fad of sorts. You tell people "sampling" and they almost automat-
      ically think of rap records and those obnoxious 80's Fairlight samples.
      Since I come from a pretty much rock guitar background, it's taken me
      a while to realize the (smallest fraction of) potential of looping units
and
      looping as a genuine means of musical expression. So I'm trying to
incor-
      porate both the mondo chunk distortion and screaming guitar I love so 
      much with the effects and looping capability I'm interested in as my
next
      "project", but still trying to keep that "organic" (for lack of a better
term)
      thing happening. I'm sure you already have it, but have you heard Gtr
Oblq
      yet? Very cool indeed. I just wish they'd make it out to the west coast.
      Well, thanks for the reply and best wishes for a great New Year!
                                             Sincerely,
                                           Chris Olden

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Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 16:59:26 -0800
From: Neil Goldstein <ngold@home.com>
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Anything on the Mac platform, currently or on the horizon, that will do what
Acid does?



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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 22:21:03 1999
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From: Chris Q <cqlung@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: loopers delight cd vol.2 / loopers festival?
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At 04:33 PM 1/7/99 +0200, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 1/7/99 2:09:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>DKirkdorffer@exapps.com writes:
>>
>>> Frank G and I are in Boston.  We could pull something together here, is my
>>>  guess.
>>>
>>sounds promising
>>lets see if we can get some of the others interested (finger
>>paint,dreamchild,ed chang etc.)
>>brian
>
>
>Well FingerPaint is always interested in a new city. It's a bit of a trek
>from DC to Boston. Someone mentioned Pittsburgh the other day.  Could Ed
>Chang set up something in New York. We could definately set up a gig here
>in DC, but with my best efforts, it's always hard to get an audience for
>the more experimental type of music around here.
>
>Hell it does not even need to be far off the beaten muiscal grove and it's
>still hard to draw a crowd.
>
>Perhpas we should take this discussion off the list though.
>
>Patrick
>
>Now Available:
>                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE
>
>            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT
>
>Shockwave audio featuring our newest release Primary Colors:Blue
>
>                            www.fingerpaint.net  
>
>
>Boston eh? I'm new to this group but am a working bassist in Boston who's
trying to dive into the whole looping world. You may have seen my requests
in desparate search for a Jam Man. Are y'all in Boston proper? I'd really
dig playing with some loopers with more experience than myself. Drop me an
email or leave a message at   www.jigglethehandle.com  Thanks alot, and oh
yeah, I'm still looking for that jam man....CQ
>

"Tie your own goddamned shoes, you one-armed son of a bitch."

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan  7 22:26:53 1999
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From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:17:05 EST
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In a message dated 1/7/99 11:15:32 PM Mid-Atlantic Standard Time,
Trisstine@aol.com writes:

<<  Although, I think that DT is right about 
       looping not catching on yet. I almost have the feeling that people see
 it
       as a fad of sorts.  >>

well..... i find myself sitting here listening, so happily, i might add, to
the LD C.D. 2.....i must honestly say, i can think of very very few people who
could sit thru a long listen to this......i myself love it......there does not
seem to be a middle ground to loop related music, you either love it or you
are made uncomfortable by it.....play any cut on the c.d. for someone and 9
out of 10 times they look at you and go "aaahhh...that's  aaaahh nice" or
"could you turn that down a bit?" the one that stops me in my tracs is "when
is something going to happen?".......what i am saying is ....this is why i
seldom leave my room.......so a big thanks to all who put this most wonderfull
c.d. together, i see many many relistens in the future.......bravo matt et
al...........michael

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan  8 05:16:12 1999
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>Anything on the Mac platform, currently or on the horizon, that will do what
>Acid does?


I havn't seen anything, I've been contemplating buying a PC/Win95 emulator
for my Mac so I can run programs like Acid, and others that don't have a
Mac version.

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


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Subject: "This CD burner will self-destruct in 1000 copies...."
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 08:19:24 +0100
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>'morning all,
>It's also worth bearing in mind that some brands of PC CD burners have a
>short run-life. HP burners, apparently, have a counter inside them which
>registers how many CDs you have made, regardless of what they are. Once the
>counter reaches 1000 the burner feels perfectly within its rights to start
>irreparably malfunctioning.
>Pete.

Where'd you hear that provocative idea?

Travis Hartnett

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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 06:22:35 -0800 (PST)
From: H IP <hip808@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: drum machine for D&B
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What about Ensonqi ASR-X or ASRX-PRO? It costs bit more but it sounds
excellent. I know Veron Reid used it live with David Torn.

It can be both a sampler and a synth. It has effect and all those real
time tweaking knobs (not many, but fairly enough). I'm think to get it
as a master MIDI clock to control my Echoplex and plays some D&B stuff
on the background.

You may check out how it sounds here:

http://www.lanset.com/shansen/asrx.htm

I've also tried Boss DR-202, I have to say that the preset (MIDI
files) are all very good and to my taste. It covers hip-hop, trip-hop,
funks, techno, ... every kind of trendy dance stuffs.

However, it sounds bad (just the good midi preset files make you think
it's good). Can't say much if you refer them as "lo-fi".

Having said that, it's a fun toy with knobs and sounds bad. Agreed
with the other gentlemen that it's just a toy but not a tool.

I'm seriously thinking the ASR-X/PRO ... any other using it?

HIp

---Crossedout@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/7/99 7:12:25 AM Central Standard Time,
> billcumm@sprynet.com writes:
> 
> << I've heard that the new Boss DR202 drum machine is geared to Drum
and Bass,
>  and other electonic styles. >>
> 
> This is true, but it's also difficult to manuever through without
the manual,
> doesn't sound really good (IMHO), and is built more like a toy than
a tool.
> True, the filters are fun to play with, but while I was test driving
it, I
> found myself more often than not crawling into a corner that
couldn't be
> backed out of, and having to turn the machine on and off. 
> 
> If you have nothing, it might be worthwhile, but I'd personally wait
and see
> if it sells at all, or if you can pick it up this fall for half the
price when
> Roland unveils it's "new(est) hot techno/d'n'b/electro-box"... like
they seem
> to be doing every three months now. 
> 
> And I will come clean, lest I offend any big fans of the 202 out
there, 


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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In a message dated 1/8/99 1:15:32 AM, you wrote:

<<I think that DT is right about 
      looping not catching on yet. I almost have the feeling that people see
it
      as a fad >>

The main problem, as I see it, is the perception that "Loopers" (and Looping)
are viewed a lot of times as "effects" as opposed to "instruments".  The
viewing/listening audience sees a guitar so they expect "guitar" playing, a
lot of guitar player/loopers set up collages of sound then just wank the same
stuff over top of it that they would if they weren't "Looping" (before any
body goes balistic, think about it, then fess up - we've all done it at some
point in the growth cycle).   When "Looping" devices and signal processors
start getting played as instruments instead of something to tack on to an
already established "technique" then "Looping" might "catch on".  But then
again why does "Looping" have to "catch on".  The listener should ideally only
be taken in by the resulting music and not how it was produced.  The musician
should be utilizing the instruments needed to realize his vision.  Limiting
titles such as Loopist, Guitarist, Stick Player etc., while fine for targeting
an audience, can become constricting.  For the listener they raise
expectations which may not be realized, for the musician they can be real
detriments to growth. I think that "Looping" (as it pertains to the use of
electronic looping devices) is in its infancy and will only become a stand
alone art form when the devices themselves are approached by those not
hampered by previous "instrumental experience" (or as done by the present
masters, such as DT, RF etc., of the art that can transcend the history of
their own sound generating device so that the "Looper" becomes *the*
instrument.) - Paul

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From: Dpcoffin@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:59:47 EST
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In a message dated 1/7/99 8:19:42 PM, DK wrote:

<<DL - this is the one with 10 secons mono -- or  4.8 seconds stereo
looping.>>
It's actually 5.2 secs in stereo...don't forget to add in the 400ms pre-delay.
dpc

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From: wbf@aloft.micro.lucent.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:11:56 -0500 (EST)
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			Playlist for "EMUSIC"

"Emusic," an electronic, ambient, and space music show, airs each Thursday
at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem, PA and 93.9 FM in
Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ.  http://wdiyfm.org/schedule/s_emusic.html

		Show #96		January 7, 1999.
		Host: Bill Fox		http://wdiyfm.org
		billfox@fast.net

On this first show of the new year, I began a month-long focus on
electronic music pioneer, Wendy Carlos.  For background information,
please point your web browser to the WDIY web site or visit the...

Wendy Carlos web site:	http://www.wendycarlos.com

The feature CD at midnight was Wendy's latest effort, "Tales of Heaven
and Hell" on the East Side Digital label.

ARTIST                  TRACK                    ALBUM (label)
======================= ======================== ==============================
11:00 pm
Synergy (Larry Fast)    OnPresumingToBeModern    Cords (Third Eye)
Steve Roach             Flatlands      Dreaming...Now,Then (CelestialHarmonies)
David Torn              TheEntireWishSpentTiming Tripping Over God (CMP)
Lucia Hwong             Celestial Beauty         Goddess Vol. 1 (None)
Lucia Hwong             Angels                   Goddess Vol. 2 (None)
Paul Nagle              Chill Factor             Lore (Synth Music Direct)
VA [Svadhisthana]       Cornerstone              Winter Sampler 1999 (NAV)
Victor Cerullo          Zeitgeist                Ludus (Groove)
Victor Cerullo          Liberation               Ludus (Groove)
Jeff Pearce             Cloud Water Rising       Daylight Slowly (Hypnos)

12:00 am
Elaine Radigue          Kyema *                  [I forgot the title] (XI)
Wendy Carlos            Transitional             Tales of Heaven & Hell (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Heaven Scent             Tales of Heaven & Hell (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Clockwork Black          Tales of Heaven & Hell (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            City of Temptation       Tales of Heaven & Hell (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Afterlife                Tales of Heaven & Hell (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Seraphim                 Tales of Heaven & Hell (ESD)

1:00 am

 * = exerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)

Events promoted on this show:
============================
In our own Lehigh Valley, Arttek and Anomalous will be performing
electronic music at Second Avenue, 302 W. Broad St. in Bethlehem.  Call
691-9919 for details.  The show starts at 9:45 pm on Thurdsay, January
14, 1999.

On the next EMUSIC, I will continue the month-long focus on electronic
music pioneer, Wendy Carlos.  The feature CD at midnight will be "Digital
Moonscapes" on CBS Masterworks.

Please visit the WDIY web site and navigate through the schedule to the
EMUSIC pages.  Playlists for every show are there.  Hot links to artists
and labels can be found in the monthly focus section.

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Message-ID: <36967F78.45F8@execpc.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:58:16 -0600
From: Chris Baime <allied@execpc.com>
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For drums and bass I have been using the roland mbd-1 a bass and drums
sound module rack mount piece.  It sounds pretty good in my opinion, I
was comparing it with the alesis dm5 and the sounds were comparable plus
the mbd-1 has really good sounding bass. this unit sold for around $350
new, list was like $500 and i saw recently Musicians Friend close it out
at $149!! the price is good and if u have a computer u can get a
shareware ver. of the Drums Pro which makes it very easy to create
patterns to trigger the unit.  check it out. lemme know what anyone
thinks of this unit and the setup.

-- 
Chris Baime

Allied Utility Equipment, Inc.
http://www.execpc.com/~allied

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Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:25:15 +0900
To: analogue@hyperreal.org, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com,
        the_wire@ukonline.co.uk, |||| Philip Pilgrim |||| <thelab@sprint.ca>,
        arcsound@ix.netcom.com (Archive Sound), Rob <rob@secret-secret.com>,
        Tom Carpenter <sales@concuss.globalnet.co.uk>,
        "P. M. Herman" <phermn@womble.netkonect.co.uk>,
        Wolfram Franke <wmf@tsi-gmbh.de>,
        tim gerwing <tgerwing@pacificcoast.net>,
        "Collins" <collinsclan@sprintmail.com>, Syntecno <syntecno@xs4all.nl>,
        "Joseph Buck" <josephbuck@hotmail.com>, jeffrey@i-2000.com,
        Yasuo Matsunaka <matunaka@rittor-music.co.jp>,
        Guy-Marc Hinant <guymarc@switchon.be>, fred walheer <fw@switchon.be>,
        "Hugo Haesaert" <sky36919@skynet.be>, "EMIS" <EMIS@dial.pipex.com>,
        info@czukay.de, tenebre@pronet.it, vinylhead@theglobe.com,
        artzero@hol.fr, masset.fcom@wanadoo.fr, mieko@wolfen.netkonect.co.uk,
        morand.fcom@wanadoo.fr, robinr@easynet.co.uk, prikos@worldnet.fr,
        Luca de Marinis <loop@entranet.co.uk>,
        hiroshi-yamazaki@kingrecords.co.jp, interval@netcom.com,
        Fred Becker <mach25@inow.com>, John Greczula <janos@execulink.com>,
        Wine Cntry <WineCntry@aol.com>, R-MODE@webtv.net (Rod Julian Modell),
        shimoda@xebec.co.jp, the_wire@ukonline.co.uk, enkel@tripnet.se,
        umu@cerbernet.co.uk, Update2@emf.org, drumfm@hotmail.com,
        Rapida Bim Padmasankha <r_padmasankh@ACAD.FANDM.EDU>,
        eloubet@gol.com (eLoubet), "Paul D'Amato" <sevin@worldnet.att.net>,
        "Matt and Kristy McCabe" <mkmccabe@earthlink.net>,
        "Laz Harris" <Laz_Harris@sweetwater.com>,
        "Kenny Bergle" <Kenny_Bergle@sweetwater.com>, asciiman@inetnow.net,
        jp.com@okay.net, Polyfusion@aol.com,
        "micke walter" <vinylhead@theglobe.com>
From: Sunao Inami <cave@pop1.osk.3web.ne.jp>
Subject: MOOG ENDLESS
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Hello,


I<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param> streaming Moog System55 performance
by Real Video from Kobe.

Please connect to:

pnm://realserver.kobedenshi.ac.jp/moog


This streaming is </fontfamily>"<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>real
playing</fontfamily>"<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param> by internal
analog sequencer</fontfamily> for 24hours.

<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>You need a Real Player 5.0 or G2 for
enjoy this Real Video.


</fontfamily>This streaming is just temporary,I will make the URL for
MOOG ENDLESS.


  Regards


  Sunao Inami


Work

E-mail                          webmaster@cavestudio.com

URL"CAVE Studio"         http://www.cavestudio.com

tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5025 Hyogo,Japan


Home

E-mail                          cave@osk.3web.ne.jp

tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5015 Hyogo,Japan


snail mail address       316 Ohshima

                                    Kuchiyokawa

                                    Miki City

                                    Hyogo

                                    Japan

                                    6730755


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan  8 18:48:23 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:44:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Unit Circle Media <unitcirc@unitcircle.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Waldorf 4-pole
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9901081841460.421-100000@keys.com>
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I'm looking for a US dealer for this.  It seems that no stores in the
Seattle area carry it.  I'd like to try it before buying it, of course.  I
know that it's been discussed on the list, does anyone know where there
are reviews of it?  My web searches have been fruitless.

	Kevin


Kevin Goldsmith				kevin@unitcircle.com
Unit Circle Media			http://www.unitcircle.com/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan  8 19:16:22 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:15:12 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
Subject: Re: Looping Catching on?
In-Reply-To: <f0750ca1.369618e7@aol.com>
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Hello fellow loopers,
    I agree completely with what Paul has written, but at the same time am
also in complete agreement with a comment someone (Kim Flint, I think, but
I don't remember) made a couple of days ago concerning the need to raise
looping's recognition level as far as equipment manufacturers are
concerned. It's all well and good to be idealistic about artistic integrity
(and I'm not being sarcastic; I do mean that) but we can't ignore the
market factor's influence on the continued existance of the toys we tweak.
If looping "catches on" to a larger number of people, you can bet that
newer and cooler tools will soon appear as the gear makers recognise an
increased opportunity to prosper and stay in business. Owners of live
venues would be more receptive to booking us purveyors of that "weird
music" if they were to recognise the possibility of getting a good crowd of
paying customers. We'd be more likely to see each others' work in the bins
at the CD stores, and less dependent on special orders placed by an
"enlightened few". It's a win-win, really.

What do all you loopers think? What's the best way to be true to the music
and to let looping continue to evolve into an instrument in its own right,
while at the same time to remain aware of the economic realities involved
with presenting looping to the larger general-business, AOR
top-forty-weaned listening public? How do we make this "fad" which is
already legit to us appeal to John and Jane Doe without pandering to
commerciality? Any thoughts on this?

Tim Nelson

(P.S. to Paul: I don't mean to imply that you're unaware of this; remember,
I said I agree with you completely!)

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan  8 20:57:01 1999
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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:56:23 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Rik Myers <zanga@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Looping Catching on?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990108191512.0079c770@pop.ici.net>
References: <f0750ca1.369618e7@aol.com>
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>What do all you loopers think? What's the best way to be true to the music
>and to let looping continue to evolve into an instrument in its own right,
>while at the same time to remain aware of the economic realities involved
>with presenting looping to the larger general-business, AOR
>top-forty-weaned listening public? How do we make this "fad" which is
>already legit to us appeal to John and Jane Doe without pandering to
>commerciality? Any thoughts on this?

I think ACID will help, especially if it is marketed as a musical game (fun
for the whole family) accessible to people you believe that music is best
left to PROfeshunals (thank you very much). If hoi poloi can be enticed to
make their own loops that sound good (and have a grand time), their ears
will open to loops as legitimate music (mostly because familiarity will
accommodate this). Other interactive music tools like KOAN could also help
the general malaise that music (art, science) is exclusive provence of
professionals.

All IMHO, natch. Hasta -> Rico

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 00:27:15 1999
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From: "Future Perfect" <artmusic@gte.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Looping Catching on?
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:21:51 -0500
Message-ID: <000401be3b8f$f693dc40$51f0ffd0@futurepe>
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Interesting subject!
There are a few things one can do: have a non looping instrument play with
y'all, like a flute, violin, saxophone, whatever: something people can
relate to. If it is a violin or flute, they think its classical music, if
its a sax, then its jazz. Don't worry about what they call it, just do your
thing.
Another option is being proficient on your instrument, for you instrument
players out there. If you are a badass on that Warr or Stick or Tele or
French Horn, your loops may not be noticed as much, but John and Jane will
have something that they can appreciate: they may not know a so-so trumpet
player, but they know what a bad one and a really good one sounds like.
Finally, you can always have a cute girl who sings and plays an instument,
like flute. Everyone can identify with that, especially if shes really good.
:) Mazing how many bookings you can get, and they don't care what the other
people in the band do!

Oh, on another note, a Florida Music Mag reviewed my 'one of a kind' looping
tapes...heres the online review:
http://www.eatmag.com/reviews/locrev1162.html

Dave Eichenberger
*********************************************************************
'Future Perfect' - art music
guitars-loops-flutes-devices-voices
http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/




>
> What do all you loopers think? What's the best way to be true to the music
> and to let looping continue to evolve into an instrument in its own right,
> while at the same time to remain aware of the economic realities involved
> with presenting looping to the larger general-business, AOR
> top-forty-weaned listening public? How do we make this "fad" which is
> already legit to us appeal to John and Jane Doe without pandering to
> commerciality? Any thoughts on this?
>
> Tim Nelson


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 07:58:26 1999
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Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 07:49:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Loopers-Delight-d Digest V99 #11
From: "jmw/cmu" <evening@ulster.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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>I'm seriously thinking the ASR-X/PRO ... any other using it?
>

I love Ensoniq gear but steer clear of the original version.
I had an ASRx awhile back & it was buggy - the Pro version seems to have
solved a lot of the timing problems that the original had. Basically the
machine wasn't originally designed to do everything that it CAN do, so
tweeking a knob while the sequencer was playing could produce timing
problems ( which is why I sold mine.)  Some have said that the new OS solves
the problems in the older machine but I'd be wary.
 
The archtecture of the ASRx Pro is excellent, as are the FX (which can be
used to process external signals) . It has very good midi implementation.
SCSI was very slow on the original ASRx (15 minutes to load a 32 Mb file!), 
maybe that's been solved in the Pro too.

I would definitely spend a few hours checking the unit out & putting it
through a torture test at a local store before buying.

jmw

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 09:07:32 1999
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Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:54:26 +0900
To: analogue@hyperreal.org, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com,
        the_wire@ukonline.co.uk, |||| Philip Pilgrim |||| <thelab@sprint.ca>,
        arcsound@ix.netcom.com (Archive Sound), Rob <rob@secret-secret.com>,
        Tom Carpenter <sales@concuss.globalnet.co.uk>,
        "P. M. Herman" <phermn@womble.netkonect.co.uk>,
        Wolfram Franke <wmf@tsi-gmbh.de>,
        tim gerwing <tgerwing@pacificcoast.net>,
        "Collins" <collinsclan@sprintmail.com>, Syntecno <syntecno@xs4all.nl>,
        "Joseph Buck" <josephbuck@hotmail.com>, jeffrey@i-2000.com,
        Yasuo Matsunaka <matunaka@rittor-music.co.jp>,
        Guy-Marc Hinant <guymarc@switchon.be>, fred walheer <fw@switchon.be>,
        "Hugo Haesaert" <sky36919@skynet.be>, "EMIS" <EMIS@dial.pipex.com>,
        info@czukay.de, tenebre@pronet.it, vinylhead@theglobe.com,
        artzero@hol.fr, masset.fcom@wanadoo.fr, mieko@wolfen.netkonect.co.uk,
        morand.fcom@wanadoo.fr, robinr@easynet.co.uk, prikos@worldnet.fr,
        Luca de Marinis <loop@entranet.co.uk>,
        hiroshi-yamazaki@kingrecords.co.jp, interval@netcom.com,
        Fred Becker <mach25@inow.com>, John Greczula <janos@execulink.com>,
        Wine Cntry <WineCntry@aol.com>, R-MODE@webtv.net (Rod Julian Modell),
        shimoda@xebec.co.jp, the_wire@ukonline.co.uk, enkel@tripnet.se,
        umu@cerbernet.co.uk, Update2@emf.org, drumfm@hotmail.com,
        Rapida Bim Padmasankha <r_padmasankh@ACAD.FANDM.EDU>,
        eloubet@gol.com (eLoubet), "Paul D'Amato" <sevin@worldnet.att.net>,
        "Matt and Kristy McCabe" <mkmccabe@earthlink.net>,
        "Laz Harris" <Laz_Harris@sweetwater.com>,
        "Kenny Bergle" <Kenny_Bergle@sweetwater.com>, asciiman@inetnow.net,
        jp.com@okay.net, Polyfusion@aol.com,
        "micke walter" <vinylhead@theglobe.com>
From: Sunao Inami <cave@pop1.osk.3web.ne.jp>
Subject: MOOG ENDLESS URL has fixed
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Hi again,

MOOG ENDLESS URL has fixed.
http://www.cavestudio.com/S+V/moog_endless.html


and if you want to direct connect MOOG ENDLESS by Realplayer,
please open this location.
pnm://realserver.kobedenshi.ac.jp/moog

This site is link free,but please let me know whare you link up.

 Keep in touch

  Sunao Inami


Work
E-mail                          webmaster@cavestudio.com
URL"CAVE Studio"         http://www.cavestudio.com
tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5025 Hyogo,Japan

Home
E-mail                          cave@osk.3web.ne.jp
tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5015 Hyogo,Japan

snail mail address       316 Ohshima
                                    Kuchiyokawa
                                    Miki City
                                    Hyogo
                                    Japan
                                    6730755


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 11:39:51 1999
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Subject: Sad but true
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:26:38 PST
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>What do all you loopers think? What's the best way to be true to the 
music
>and to let looping continue to evolve into an instrument in its own 
right,
>while at the same time to remain aware of the economic realities 
involved
>with presenting looping to the larger general-business, AOR
>top-forty-weaned listening public? How do we make this "fad" which is
>already legit to us appeal to John and Jane Doe without pandering to
>commerciality? Any thoughts on this?
>
>Tim Nelson

>
Recently, I have been convinced of a harsh reality of life. I had always 
suspected that people in general  don't like to think. After 3 years in 
the Video rental business, I am absolutely convinced of it! Everyday I 
see what the "averages" are choosing for entertainment and it is not 
pretty folks. It would seem that education and entertainment  cannot 
occupy the same space. As soon as these folks think they are being 
educated, it's all over.  Maybe it is a consequence of public schooling 
I don't know, but to tie this to looping, a new experience is almost 
always a learning one and in addition I tend to see loops as a thought, 
even ones that seem spontaneous at the time frequently tie into a idea 
lingering in the head. Looping, for most people, is a new experience. 
Which, at least for awhile yet, seals its fate. Besides, I have grown to 
be suspicous of anything that attains Godlike status in the popular 
culture. I find that most of these things seem to be about selling you 
something anyway. I could go on but I will spare you all my neurosis.
Just an opinion.......  -Dennis
"Suicide is a very dangerous thing" -Pat Robertson

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 13:25:58 1999
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
Subject: RE: Looping Catching on?
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>Another option is being proficient on your instrument, for you instrument
>players out there. If you are a badass on that Warr or Stick or Tele or
>French Horn, your loops may not be noticed as much, but John and Jane will
>have something that they can appreciate

I don't want to put words in someone's mouth, but I think this is
antithetical to the point Paul made re DT's view of looping being perceived
as a fad rather than an autonomous field of discipline... I don't think any
of us are (at least intentionally) advocating the use of looping as a
substitute for instrumental competency. Paul's point, to which I added my
comment, dealt more with folks seeing looping as an "effect", as something
added on top of an existing methodology. People see a guitar and half
expect to hear BB King licks. Looping is still unfamiliar to the general
public, so most people can't be expected to distinguish between "input
device as part of a total system" and "instrument as the whole deal."
Hoping that our "loops may not be noticed as much" goes against the grain
of even doing loops in the first place. 
It's like when the first guitar synths came out and the sounds of other,
existing instruments became available to the guitarist. A lot of lousy
sounding stuff was flying around, because people were trying to use
preexisting codified GUITAR techniques to sound like trumpets, flutes
or what-have-you... It wasn't until people (Fripp comes to mind as a good
example) began to approach the guitar synth as a NEW instrument distinct
from the guitar that we began hearing truly musical results. There's
certainly nothing wrong with being a "badass" on an existing instrument,
but  what I had in mind, and I think what Paul was saying as well, is that
to be a "badass" looper might require a shift in mindset, an application of
effort and discipline no less intense than that required for existing
instruments, just DIFFERENT as the specific needs of the particular
situation might warrant.
What'chall think?
Tim

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A friend of mine has been asking for recommendations on a device for creating
vocal loops.  I've been eyeing the Boomerang, but wonder how it actually
sounds with a vocal going through it.  I think this one does have a mic preamp
on it though.  If anyone has any suggestions on any device, please let me
know.  This would be primarily used in live settings, and it would need to be
foot controllable.  The delay time doesnt have to be extremely long either,
just enough to get some short ideas going.
-Jody

mrberwell@aol.com

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>What do all you loopers think? What's the best way to be true to the music
>and to let looping continue to evolve into an instrument in its own right,
>while at the same time to remain aware of the economic realities involved
>with presenting looping to the larger general-business, AOR
>top-forty-weaned listening public? 

I generally stay in lurk mode on this list, mostly because those who post
have much better insights on the whole "looping world" than I do!  And I've
asked myself these very same questions that Tim asks- how do we continue to
move this looping adventure forward?

It's been a great past week for me- my most recent cd was just reviewed in
Billboard (http://www.billboard.com/reviews/reviewdisplay.asp?ID=48969) (if
you want to see the whole thing...) and it was a comment in that review
that sent my mind onto Tim's question.  The reviewer pointed out that I
used loops, delays are reverb to create my sounds.  True, however, I
personally have a hard time viewing "looping" as just another effect, and
it sruck me that he was viewing looping as just that- another effect.  But,
at this point in time, that's what a good portion of the "listening
audience (whomever they may be) thinks about looping- "just another effect". 

IMHO, the answers to Tim's questions are found in Tim's initial question-
and that is to stay true to the music. Although there is part of me that
would REALLY like to see looping viewed as something that is a unique
"instrument", there is another part of me that is thrilled when looping is
seamlessly integrated into music, becoming yet another element in it.
Personally, I think it would be great to have country loopers, heavy metal
loopers, classical loopers, etc.....all styles utilizing this instrument
called looping.  And I know that there are many loopers of many different
styles out there- a lot of you have blown my mind, which probably accounts
for why I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words!

On a completely different note (but still in the mind blowing catagory!), I
have had so much fun playing the past few weeks with my Sustainiac model
B!!  I hook that thing up to my guitar, and I am constantly amazed at the
wonderfully wide range of sounds that come out of it!  Being able to switch
harmonics with the tap of a foot is unreal, and the unit itself is SO
quiet, and that's something that I'm really picky about.  Have any of you
loopers played around with this thing?  I have played a guitar with a built
in sustainer, and I didn't really care for it, although others have played
that same guitar and have achieved remarkable results.

Jeff Pearce

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From: "Future Perfect" <artmusic@gte.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Looping Catching on?
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:08:42 -0500
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 Exactly!! I'm sorry, if I wasn't clear with what I meant...the idea of
bringing looping to 'John and Jane' is easiest through something that they
can identify with. The original post deals with bringing looping to the
'mainstream' in some sort of commercial acceptance. I feel this can't be
done by the 'looping' part alone right away , no matter how good you are
with it- the public needs to be interested in things in the music they
understand, which sadly, as someone else pointed out, is VERY basic. How
about this: if there is a solo washboard player/singer in the  street during
a festival and a block down the road, a solo looper with guitar, guess who
will have the crowd. Why? I have no idea, although it must have something to
do with the fact that people don't understand that 'playing' a box with
flashing lights actually takes quite a bit of hard work. Maybe it looks like
our solo looper really isn't doing much playing at all, and letting the box
'do the work'- however the public rationalizes this,in the end result is the
same, a bigger crowd in front of the washboard player. Hell, guitar players
at G3 were booing Fripp for 'not playing' when I was there. Now, stick a
heavy bass drum, a I-IV-V, and a Jim Morrison wannabe on the stage with him,
and people would love it (at least at the show I saw).
This doesn't mean that I have to give up my dream of playing to 20,000 who
cheer when I am the only one onstage, making beeps and scraping sounds. But
for now, I know that kind of playing is inaccessible to the mainstream (I
don't know how Fripp put up with the screams of 'you suck' at G3)...and
avant-garde playing will never make it to the mainstream (then it wouldn't
be avant-garde, and live playing for that kind of music is limited to
'electronic music shows' in a warehouse on the bad part of town, with only
the other bands in the audience. I am lucky enough to be booked fairly
frequently, but that is mostly because there is a girl in my band who sings
and plays flute. If it was a guy who did the same thing, and we played the
same kinda music, I don't think we'd be playing as much. Go figure.

Dave Eichenberger
*********************************************************************
'Future Perfect' - art music
guitars-loops-flutes-devices-voices
http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/


> >Another option is being proficient on your instrument, for you instrument
> >players out there. If you are a badass on that Warr or Stick or Tele or
> >French Horn, your loops may not be noticed as much, but John and
> Jane will
> >have something that they can appreciate
>
> I don't want to put words in someone's mouth, but I think this is
> antithetical to the point Paul made re DT's view of looping being
> perceived
> as a fad rather than an autonomous field of discipline... I don't
> think any
> of us are (at least intentionally) advocating the use of looping as a
> substitute for instrumental competency.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 17:16:03 1999
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Jeff wrote:

"I have had so much fun playing the past few weeks with my Sustainiac model
B!! " 


What is a SUSTAINIAC Model B?

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 17:39:41 1999
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>"I have had so much fun playing the past few weeks with my Sustainiac model
>B!! " 
>
>
>What is a SUSTAINIAC Model B?

It's the "original", from how I understand it- and Alan Hoover might be
able to explain it better than I do!  It has a transducer that you put on
the back of the headstock, which means that those with a Klein or
Steinberger might not get a lot of use out of it.

The output from your guitar plugs into the floor unit, which has knobs for
the transducer power level, harmonic enhance, and auto-sense, which adjusts
the time before the note starts feeding back.

I've heard some folks talk down the Sustainiac because it has the
transducer and a cable on your headstock, and that makes things a little
awkward while playing live.  However, it's been quite a while since I've
leapt and slid around on stage, so it works fine for me! The plus side to
this unit is that, from a looping standpoint, you can really add an element
of "controlled randomness" (how's THAT for an oxymoron?!?) to your loops- a
note feeds back, and then slowly shifts up a third, or an octave.  And the
sounds can be QUITE different from a standard e-bow.  Not to mention that
you can use any of your guitar's pick-ups and still get sustain/feedback-
from my experience, having an on-board sustainer eliminates a pick-up
choice while using the sustaining effect.  

Back to the Indiana snow......ughh....

Jeff

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 17:39:47 1999
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From: "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@earthlight.net>
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Subject: RE: Looping Catching on?
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:33:31 -0800
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Fmplautus@aol.com asked:
> What is a SUSTAINIAC Model B?


I think Steven Spielberg paid a committee to come up with the idea after
seeing "Spinal Tap."

:)

Stephen Goodman  -  It's... The Loop Of The Week (Iron Eyes Cody)!
EarthLight Studios  -  http://www.earthlight.net/Studios

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 17:45:53 1999
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From: "Antonio Paulo Ferreira Junior" <paulada@pocos-net.com.br>
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I creat some loops with ACID and the sounds seems very good!






-----Mensagem original-----
De: Rik Myers <zanga@mindspring.com>
Para: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Data: Sexta-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 1999 21:01
Assunto: Re: Looping Catching on?


>>What do all you loopers think? What's the best way to be true to the music
>>and to let looping continue to evolve into an instrument in its own right,
>>while at the same time to remain aware of the economic realities involved
>>with presenting looping to the larger general-business, AOR
>>top-forty-weaned listening public? How do we make this "fad" which is
>>already legit to us appeal to John and Jane Doe without pandering to
>>commerciality? Any thoughts on this?
>
>I think ACID will help, especially if it is marketed as a musical game (fun
>for the whole family) accessible to people you believe that music is best
>left to PROfeshunals (thank you very much). If hoi poloi can be enticed to
>make their own loops that sound good (and have a grand time), their ears
>will open to loops as legitimate music (mostly because familiarity will
>accommodate this). Other interactive music tools like KOAN could also help
>the general malaise that music (art, science) is exclusive provence of
>professionals.
>
>All IMHO, natch. Hasta -> Rico
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 18:20:42 1999
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From: Michael Peters <mpeters@csi.com>
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Subject: AW: Looping Catching on?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:06:29 +0100
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Jeff Pearce wrote,

> I have had so much fun playing the past few weeks with my Sustainiac
> model B!!  Have any of you loopers played around with this thing?

I have a Fernandez with the old sustainer, and love it ... your post sounds 
like the guitar you played now was much better than sustainer guitars used 
to - was it?

*	Michael Peters:	mpeters@csi.com
*	escape veloopity:	electronic guitar loop music
*			http://listen.to/michaelpeters



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 18:25:57 1999
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Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:48:16 +0200
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: Re: looping device for vocals?
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On 1/9/99 mrbrewell said:
>A friend of mine has been asking for recommendations on a device for creating
>vocal loops.

During the DC Loop Show this past spring Siobhan Canty who used to be on
this list did some beautiful vaocl work using the jam man. I've also done
some droney vocal loops with a throat singer a few years back using my
jamster and she worked just fine.

Patrick

Now Available:
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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 18:41:13 1999
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From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
Subject: RE: Looping Catching on?
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I agree, and you really can't blame "John and Jane" for feeling more
comfortable with something they're already familiar with.
Case in point: Jimi Hendrix was a consumate showman, but that's not ALL he
could do.Roger Mayer (effects maker extraordinaire) once commented to the
effect that he had never seen anyone assimilate technology faster than
Hendrix. Mayer would hand Jimi a new gadget and within minutes Hendrix
would be using it in a very musical fashion; Mayer was astounded at the
slope of the Hendrix learning curve, and one can only imagine what he'd do
with an Echoplex (the new kind...) and ACID (also the new kind...). Jimi's
playing technique was a lot more subtle than many remember; think of
"Little Wing" rather than "Star Spangled Banner", finesse as opposed to
bombast. The thing is, he did BOTH well, yet what is he remembered for? The
flashy, superficial stuff; clothing styles and whammy dives. One would find
it hard to imagine him playing a little flashing box behind his head or
with his teeth, or kneeling before a flaming Boomerang with that can of
Ronson, none of which has much to do with the player's skill at actually
USING the equipment, but sure does make for good entertainment. So it's
easy to see why that solo washboard player would draw the crowd!
As far as illustrating my other point about developing technique SPECIFIC
TO LOOPING, I'm sure most of us have known at least one quite decent
guitarist who was a crappy bass player. The instruments are similar;
strings, frets, EADG, etc., but require a very different playing
philosophy. Guitar licks do not translate well to bass.
(I don't mean to pick on the guitar, but it's such a versatile and
ubiquitous instrument that it's an easy target!) Similarly, a Steinway, a
B3, an SH-101, a Mellotron, and a modular Moog share at least one obvious
feature; those black and white things you press with your fingers. Yet how
different they are in terms of technique, and how easy it is for this to be
lost on the non-musician. How often have we heard ANY keyboard referred to
as a "piano"? So it is little wonder that John and Jane find it hard to
appreciate something as alien (at least to them) as looping.

But is IS important that looping "catch on", and it IS unfortunate that
most of the factors influencing popular acceptance of looping have more to
do with economics and demographics than with music...

Tim

P.S. to Dave Eichenberger: Great Website!

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Michael Peters wrote:

>I have a Fernandez with the old sustainer, and love it ... your post sounds 
>like the guitar you played now was much better than sustainer guitars used 
>to - was it?

Well, the Sustainiac system works on any guitar- it's not something that
comes built "into" the guitar.  I use my trusty Fender strat, but you can
install the model B VERY easily on just about any guitar- there's nothing
that messes with the electronics in the guitar. Everything about the model
B is external.

>From what I've heard on your cd (which is quite cool, BTW!) you get really
nice results with your Fernandes Sustainer- you'd probably get some cool
results with a Sustainiac.

Jeff

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I must be missing something with my Jamman...  Take a stereo sound (Korg sound
module with sound that pans or pingpongs side to side for instance)  It
flattens out in the Jamman in the punch in mode.  In the echo, it pans to one
side once, then is centered.  I swear in echo mode, one live recording I had a
sample from a movie that kept bouncing from side to side in the echo mode.
Should it retain any panning sounds that are put into either mode as long as
it is stereo in during the record?

J-

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In a message dated 1/9/99 7:32:17 PM Mid-Atlantic Standard Time,
pearce@tctc.com writes:

<< Sustainiac model
 B!!   >>
jeff......what is this?.........michael

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So Jeff...now that you've explained what a Sustaniac model b is...

WHERE ARE THEY AND HOW MUCH DOES IT COST!!!

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 20:48:58 1999
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Fellow Musicians,

I feel that this is a good point to throw in my 2cents worth.  Do you
really think it necessary that looping catch on with the listener?  To
me, that seems as ridiculous as a particular surgical instrument
catching on with the patients.  We're musicians and we should be
asking our gracious listeners to accept our music, not our technique.
Dan Sumner



---Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net> wrote:
>
> I agree, and you really can't blame "John and Jane" for feeling more
> comfortable with something they're already familiar with.
> Case in point: Jimi Hendrix was a consumate showman, but that's not
ALL he
> could do.Roger Mayer (effects maker extraordinaire) once commented
to the
> effect that he had never seen anyone assimilate technology faster than
> Hendrix. Mayer would hand Jimi a new gadget and within minutes Hendrix
> would be using it in a very musical fashion; Mayer was astounded at
the
> slope of the Hendrix learning curve, and one can only imagine what
he'd do
> with an Echoplex (the new kind...) and ACID (also the new kind...).
Jimi's
> playing technique was a lot more subtle than many remember; think of
> "Little Wing" rather than "Star Spangled Banner", finesse as opposed
to
> bombast. The thing is, he did BOTH well, yet what is he remembered
for? The
> flashy, superficial stuff; clothing styles and whammy dives. One
would find
> it hard to imagine him playing a little flashing box behind his head
or
> with his teeth, or kneeling before a flaming Boomerang with that can
of
> Ronson, none of which has much to do with the player's skill at
actually
> USING the equipment, but sure does make for good entertainment. So
it's
> easy to see why that solo washboard player would draw the crowd!
> As far as illustrating my other point about developing technique
SPECIFIC
> TO LOOPING, I'm sure most of us have known at least one quite decent
> guitarist who was a crappy bass player. The instruments are similar;
> strings, frets, EADG, etc., but require a very different playing
> philosophy. Guitar licks do not translate well to bass.
> (I don't mean to pick on the guitar, but it's such a versatile and
> ubiquitous instrument that it's an easy target!) Similarly, a
Steinway, a
> B3, an SH-101, a Mellotron, and a modular Moog share at least one
obvious
> feature; those black and white things you press with your fingers.
Yet how
> different they are in terms of technique, and how easy it is for
this to be
> lost on the non-musician. How often have we heard ANY keyboard
referred to
> as a "piano"? So it is little wonder that John and Jane find it hard
to
> appreciate something as alien (at least to them) as looping.
> 
> But is IS important that looping "catch on", and it IS unfortunate
that
> most of the factors influencing popular acceptance of looping have
more to
> do with economics and demographics than with music...
> 
> Tim
> 
> P.S. to Dave Eichenberger: Great Website!
> 
> 
 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Happy to see this thread come up again....especially since the endless gear
babbling had gotten way out of hand, as it tends to..... It's good to
reflect on what in the hell we are actually doing with the stuff, right?
Anyway, I think it is often curious the way this topic progresses. Since I
know some of you, I think it has to do with your particular backgrounds and
where you come from musically. On one hand, the perception of Loopers and
Loop creation/manipulation as a sort of musical instrument I think is dead
on. It's not a passive thing that just sits there doing it's job, it
requires active, musical involvement and different musicians are going to
come up with completely different results based on their musical vision and
relative skill with this instrument.

On the other hand, this perception of "Loop Music" being "weird", or new,
or out of the mainstream, or difficult to find audience for, etc, I think
is really odd. Are you guys living on the same planet as I'm on? Anyway,
more on that below.



At 1:22 PM -0800 1/9/99, Tim Nelson wrote:
>>Another option is being proficient on your instrument, for you instrument
>>players out there. If you are a badass on that Warr or Stick or Tele or
>>French Horn, your loops may not be noticed as much, but John and Jane will
>>have something that they can appreciate
>
>I don't want to put words in someone's mouth, but I think this is
>antithetical to the point Paul made re DT's view of looping being perceived
>as a fad rather than an autonomous field of discipline... I don't think any
>of us are (at least intentionally) advocating the use of looping as a
>substitute for instrumental competency. Paul's point, to which I added my
>comment, dealt more with folks seeing looping as an "effect", as something
>added on top of an existing methodology.

I think this is an important point. Creating and manipulating loops is a
musical activity. It's something you are actively involved in, using your
tools as an instrument. You play it, much as you play a piano or
synthesizer or drum set. And this is an instrument that is still quite
young. There is a lot yet to be explored and developed here.

This is right at the heart of Matthias' and Eric's and my approach to
developing Loop, AKA the oberheim echoplex. We designed this to be an
instrument, not an effect. It's meant to have musicians interract with it,
explore it, learn it, develop their own techniques with it....play it.
Mostly Matthias' genius, really. But every step of the way, we try to think
of it that way - what will somebody performing with this want it to do? How
should each function react, how should it respond to the musician's
actions? How does it fit in a real musical context. Everything gets put to
that test.


>People see a guitar and half
>expect to hear BB King licks. Looping is still unfamiliar to the general
>public,

etc, there were many comments like this. I get the feeling you guys are
holding a very narrow concept of what "Loop Music" is. Maybe a little too
focused on that textural guitar thing?

Here on the earth where I live, Loop based music is everywhere. It's
hip-hop, trip-hop, techno, illbient, house, drum and bass, world beat
techno, industrial metal, acid jazz, new wave, ambient, dub, newage, etc.,
etc., etc. It's on tv commercials and movie soundtracks. It's on MTV. It's
modern and it's old skool. It's on the boring AOR/pop station I wake up to
in the morning, in the guise of ordinary pop music like sneakerpimps,
garbage, bjork, massive attack, etc., all full of looping grooves and
rhythms. KMFDM and ministry turned metal on its head 10-15 years ago by
using heavy guitar loops to create the brutal precision of their now
cliched industrial metal sound, changing that genre forever. The venerable
Chet Atkins explored it with his audience of blue grass fans. Hip hop is
everything from the ever palatable Will Smith helping us git jiggy wit it
to DJ Qbert reinventing the boundaries of the genre and what we think of as
instruments like some modern day Charlie Parker, and it's all got loops at
the core.

Now I know what you're gonna say. That's different, that's not what my
music is about, that's not what I mean by Loop Music, blah blah blah, and I
say that's not quite correct. We're talking about a general idea of using
electronic means to regularly repeat a sound as a musical performance or
compositional device. That has a huge range of possibilities. The "means"
can just as easily be an echoplex or boomerang or jamman for real-time
improvisational loop excursions as it can be a meticulous world beat
percussion loop sequenced in Cubase VST and triggered on a sampler. The
sounds can just as easily be your spacey ebowed and vortexed guitar as it
can be the Amen break in a D&B track. The general principle does include
your music right along with Master P's cadre of one hit wonders and all
that electronic dance stuff that may or may not be the next or last big
thing. It *is* all related.

What we frequently deal with on this list is innovations in how to approach
this loop idea. For instance, real-time techniques using something like the
echoplex give a powerful new approach to the musical use of loops. But
that's an evolution of technique, perhaps a powerful one, enabling some new
possibilities not there before, but still just a new tool for approaching
the older idea of loops in music. How different musicians integrate that
tool into their music will vary a lot, and it's really an exciting time of
innovation on the looping concept. And with the innovation of real-time
loop tools, other musicians join the looping ranks, since these tools allow
more traditional instrumentalists to explore ideas previously worked by
synth and computer based musicians. And that's great, a healthy infusion of
new perspective and ideas to push the concept. The old guys can learn a few
new tricks here, I think. By the same token, some of the new folks coming
in with wide eyes, flushed cheeks, and guitars still strapped on could do
well to keep the blinders off a bit and learn from the looping going on all
around in a wide range of modern music. Listen, learn, there's a lot there
to educate yourself on.

Is it popular? Well, people pushing the boundaries are never popular, so
that doesn't really change. But consider your audience, or who you think is
your audience. A crowd of balding baby-boomer rock fans is not going to
readily get looping. They want to see a finger move for every sound, and
the guitar player should look like he's suffering from constipation when he
bends a note. Fine, they're happy, they ain't changing. And neither is a
conservative symphony audience that doesn't like anything composed after
1900, or a crowd of traditional blues fans, etc. But the Beastie Boys pack
arenas full of 20 somethings who don't seem to have a problem that there is
no "band" on the stage. Maybe you won't quite fit with the B-boyz, but the
point is, there are a lot of people around who long ago accepted this loop
concept as normal and mainstream. Indeed, many under the age of 20 have
probably known little else.

So maybe, if the audience isn't getting you, it's not the music but the
wrong audience? Maybe you need to reconsider the context where you fit, and
need to explore some new territory. Maybe the old cats at the jazz dive
where you regularly play bass won't relate to your jamman and bass solo
experiment. So why not try hooking up with a progressive trip-hop dj and
let him mix your live acoustic bass loops into the tracks he spins in the
chill rooms of the local dance clubs. I bet you'll get a very different
reaction. Bail on the rock band and add live funky guitar loops to your
local hip-hop crew. The Hank Williams fans at your local bar throw bottles
at your atmospheric effected telecaster loops? Maybe you would do better in
a downtown cafe or an office atrium in the financial district?

Anyway, chew that...

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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>I must be missing something with my Jamman...  Take a stereo sound (Korg sound
>module with sound that pans or pingpongs side to side for instance)  It
>flattens out in the Jamman in the punch in mode.  In the echo, it pans to one
>side once, then is centered.  I swear in echo mode, one live recording I had a
>sample from a movie that kept bouncing from side to side in the echo mode.
>Should it retain any panning sounds that are put into either mode as long as
>it is stereo in during the record?

jamman is only stereo for the audio passing through. The loop is mono. The
stereo inputs are summed to mono for the loop, and the loop output is fed
equally to both stereo channels. If you had it bouncing from side to side,
that would be some other problem, either with phase or some intermittant
audio path.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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Some thoughts on this thread...

First of all, as tends to be mentioned from time to time, it's a dubious
proposition to refer to looping as a specific genre of music. 
Electronically looping samples is so prevalent in popular music that
it's impossible to escape -- the most mainstream, middle of the road
singers today are using breakbeats in their arrangements.  I'm asssuming
that when people refer to "looping" as in the context of this thread,
they're referring more specifically to real-time looping, and even more
specifically to real-time looping using a tape loop-descended approach
as typified by the EDP/JamMan/Boomerang etc.  (I know some people have
and continue to argue with me on this point of lineage, but I maintain
that if the dual Revox experiments of the '60s and '70s had not
happened, units like the three mentioned above would likely not exist in
their present form, and certainly wouldn't be used in the way that they
are).

I can't help but think that there's an certain assumption being made
here, which is that real-time looping of this nature is more or less
synonymous with ambient washes of abstract sound, slowly building up and
drifting through gradual changes over periods of time.  Put simply,
people tend to put an "equals" sign between "ambient" and "looping," at
least in the sort of context that this thread is operating in.

I thinking there's a fundamental problem in trying to get widespread
visibility and mass acceptance for a form of music which is inherently
oriented towards being ignored.  Just about every "definition" of
ambient music I've read talks about the idea that it should lend itself
to hanging inconspicuously in the background at least as easily as
commanding one's attention.  That's fine, but when you start thinking
about getting that sort of music out to "the masses," you've got to
consider the overwhelming amount of information that the typical
TV-watching, magazine-reading, radio-listening person is bombarded with
on a daily basis.  There are literally thousands of artists out there
vying for a person's attention with in-your-face marketing campaigns and
promotional assualts.  This being the case, the odds are stacked against
a form of music that uses the idea of being inherently unobtrusive as
one of its primary maxims.

You also have to consider that any instrument is only as good as the
musician who plays it.  In other words, if you want real-time looping to
be recognized as a viable instrument/tool/musical approach by a lot of
people, you've got to be able to play your looping instrument, and
you've got to have something to say with that instrument that connects
with people.  The most open-minded audience listening in the most
high-profile circumstance in the world isn't going to help any if the
loopist can't give them a compelling reason to listen in the first
place.  Musicians in fringe genres can have a tendency to automatically
assume that what they do is too "sophisticated" for the "sheep-like
masses" to comprehend, without considering the issue of whether or not
their music is actually communicating anything other that the obscurity
of its own construction.

Putting real-time looping into non-ambient genres is imperative, as
well.  I've got to say that I find myself a bit irked by the occasional
threads that pop up on the list regarding what people would like to see
in future editions of looping gear, because I don't think loopists in
general have really come to terms with what the *current* crop of units
has to offer!  It's been over twenty years since Jaco Pastorious drew
cheers from crowds by performing a looping solo piece during his set
with Joni Mitchell on an ancient Electro-Harmonix delay, and at least as
long since Robert Fripp started doing dual Revox concerts in pizza
parlors and barber shops, thereby forever making himself the person most
commonly associated with real-time looping, much to the chagrin of many
other loopists.  

The tools that are available today eclipse those units in terms of
flexibility and function (I leave audiophile debates as to the finer
points of sound quality to those sufficiently inclined to obsess over
such minutae), but I'm not convinced that many people are moving on past
what the most visible practitioners were doing some twenty or thirty
years ago.

I haven't yet heard the Looper's Delight CD, but based upon a recent
post's remark that "not many people would be able to sit through a lot
of this kind of music," I'm inclined to think that there's a large
proportion of the same sort of ambient cloud-wash sound that is most
commonly associated with real-time looping.  In other words, music from
the same basic genre of ambient/atmospheric/abstract whatever.  

If people really want looping to catch on, they're going to have to come
to terms with the cutting edge of what today's technology can do. 
They'll have to actually learn the techniques needed to play this stuff,
both in the sense of knowing the technical makeup of the gear, and the
physical task of executing the operations.  They'll very likely have to
present the stuff in a musical genre that isn't built upon a foundation
of being background music.  They'll have to come up with a performance
presence and technique that integrates the looper into a compelling
presentation (anyone who hasn't seen the video footage of Jaco doing his
thing from the "Shadows And Light" concert tape needs to check this out
ASAP).

And most of all, they're going to have to have a thoroughly compelling
musical statement to make, that transcends and translates beyond the
apparatus of how the music is made.  In short, after you've dealt with
all the issues above, you've still gotta have something to say.

Gentlemen (and ladies), start your engines...

--Andre LaFosse
http://home.earthlink.net/~altruist

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Subject: RE: Looping Catching on?
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:20:54 -0800
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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 23:18:25 1999
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Subject: Re: AW: Looping Catching on?
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>So Jeff...now that you've explained what a Sustaniac model b is...
>
>WHERE ARE THEY AND HOW MUCH DOES IT COST!!!

They are available directly from Maniac Music- the guy to speak to is Alan
Hoover, e-mail HooverA@tce.com  I believe that the price for the model B is
$279.  Get in touch with Alan- he can surely answer your questions much
better than I can!  He also has a line of more conventional "pick guard"
mounted sustainers that are more like the ones found in the Fernandes
guitars- but I believe that these are just for strat-style guitars.  On top
of that, Alan is a really cool guy who is REALLY committed to putting out
great gear!

Jeff

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan  9 23:38:18 1999
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Subject: Enough Already!!
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Am I the only one out there who could care less if 'looping catches on'?

As long as there is ,at least ,adequate technology in the field I'm happy.

Right now there is more than enough devices for looping.

What's the problem?

You wan't to make a living off of it?

Unless your sexier than the Back street boys, or can shake your ass better
than Will Smith, or have better outfits than the Spice Girls, or can insult
more people than Manson it's probably not going to happen.

I have never expected to live off of the music I make.....
First of all I make it for myself(or whoever im working with)and share it with
friends or people who are GENUINLY interested in it.

Second of all, when dealing with 'avant-garde' music , or whatever that means,
one cannot expect 'the masses' , or whatever that means, to greet it with open
arms, at least in the US.

Also, what is all of this nonsense about wanting looping to considered a
legitimate instrument.
By who?
Do all of you need society to tell you it's 'ok' to use that shinny box?

And what is all of that other nonsense tying 'real instruments' to physical
techniques?
We only need to go through some physical medium(i.e. guitar player moving his
fingers and hands about)because there is no better way.
If it were possible(on probably will be in not too long)we won't even need an
instrument, at least in the traditional sense of the word.
It would all happen upstairs, if thats what one wants.

I think all of you(I'm addressing the ones who sent the mail {I dont want to
throw a blanket statement out there on all of you})are overly conserned with
being accpeted by society, your peers, consumers, 'musicians'...etc.....

We are all artists(in one medium or another, or multiple ones).
Most of us deal with sound, again, whatever that means
But it is art nonethe less

I leave you all with a few quotes that I like

"Art, if you want a definition of it, is criminal action. It conforms to no
rules. Not even its own.  Anyone who experiences a work of art is as guilty as
the artist. It is not a question of sharing the guilt.  Each one of us gets
all of it."  John Cage

and

"Art is you ability to percieve it."

Rodrigo
Kriist@Aol.com

P.S...Dig the CD Gezoleen.
P.P.S.  Thanks for responding to the mail I sent you DT  <~~~~SARCASM

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>Am I the only one out there who could care less if 'looping catches on'?
>


I'll second that.

>As long as there is ,at least ,adequate technology in the field I'm happy.
>
>Right now there is more than enough devices for looping.
>
>What's the problem?


It's that the lower costing ones don't deliver stereo samples. Isn't that
right everybody?

>You wan't to make a living off of it?
>
>Unless your sexier than the Back street boys, or can shake your ass better
>than Will Smith, or have better outfits than the Spice Girls, or can insult
>more people than Manson it's probably not going to happen.
>


Or you're David Torn, Robert Fripp, Adrian Belew, E#, and a few select
others.

>I have never expected to live off of the music I make.....
>First of all I make it for myself(or whoever im working with)and share it
with
>friends or people who are GENUINLY interested in it.
>
>Second of all, when dealing with 'avant-garde' music , or whatever that
means,
>one cannot expect 'the masses' , or whatever that means, to greet it with
open
>arms, at least in the US.
>


You've got that one right. The only parts of the US that you can get good
avant-garde music is NYC. Other than that you have to go to Toronto or
France, Germany, or England.

>Also, what is all of this nonsense about wanting looping to considered a
>legitimate instrument.
>By who?
>Do all of you need society to tell you it's 'ok' to use that shinny box?
>


That's very, very true. I'm purposely bringing myself into sub-commercial
music on purpose. Even though i barely use looping.

>And what is all of that other nonsense tying 'real instruments' to physical
>techniques?
>We only need to go through some physical medium(i.e. guitar player moving
his
>fingers and hands about)because there is no better way.
>If it were possible(on probably will be in not too long)we won't even need
an
>instrument, at least in the traditional sense of the word.
>It would all happen upstairs, if thats what one wants.
>


Well, that can already happen with everything coming out of your brain. It's
incredibly hard to control. Which is kinda like life. But i do like looped
REAL instruments (like percussion, and other instruments.)

>I think all of you(I'm addressing the ones who sent the mail {I dont want
to
>throw a blanket statement out there on all of you})are overly conserned
with
>being accpeted by society, your peers, consumers, 'musicians'...etc.....
>


You're right again.

>We are all artists(in one medium or another, or multiple ones).
>Most of us deal with sound, again, whatever that means
>But it is art nonethe less
>
>I leave you all with a few quotes that I like
>
>"Art, if you want a definition of it, is criminal action. It conforms to no
>rules. Not even its own.  Anyone who experiences a work of art is as guilty
as
>the artist. It is not a question of sharing the guilt.  Each one of us gets
>all of it."  John Cage
>

Cage was, is, and will always be a genius. He was the complete
non-conformist. He wouldn't even let his music conform itself to what Cage
originally thought for the concept of the piece.

I think that if you do want more commercial success. you should be out there
making a name for yourself, instead of talking to all of us who are out
there either really putting ourselves up for hire, or just to make a little
bit of enjoyment for themselves with music.

Learn how to promote yourself...that should get you some more gigs.

Sincerely,
Jeff Collins

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 10 01:19:13 1999
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I know I run the risk of having an angry mob of futuristic "looper"
cyborgs chasing me through the night on their limbs constructed entirely
out of spare echoplex, vortex and eh16 parts by submitting a "me too"
post, but I'm gonna anyway.
    I agree!
`  ME TOO!
    WOO HA HA!
    I'll leave you with a favorite (and entirely appropriate) quote of
my own:

    "Cancer? Jesus H. Christ that's funny! Goddamnit, I need a drink."
--  Abraham Lincoln circa 1865

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 10 01:56:23 1999
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From: MrBERWELL@aol.com
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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:50:12 EST
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In a message dated 1/9/99 11:39:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kriist@aol.com
writes:

> 
>  Right now there is more than enough devices for looping.


Yes, looping has caught on.  It has caught on so well in fact that you have
new people joining this mailing list all the time.  Sometimes these new people
have questions about looping devices.  One would think that this (undoubtedly
expert filled) list would be a great place to get answers!

So to all the 15 or so people who replied to the "looping has caught on"
thread, can a few of you recommend a looping device suitable for vocals, one
that is foot controllable.  If I missed the FAQ, someone point me in the right
direction.  Email me personally if this is way off topic.

Jody

PS- loop content: saw someone looping acoustic drums and percussion tonight.
Christine Bard at Tonic in NYC.   She had pickups everywhere, even on cymbals.
She was opening for Eyvind Kang who came out with Marc Ribot, then Eyvind
split after about ten minutes so he could sit in with Beck on Saturday Night
Live.  I hope he didnt get paid for the Tonic gig!

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Reply-To: <gnominus@earthling.net>
From: "Javier Miranda V." <gnominus@earthling.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Enough Already!! and more
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:39:06 -0800
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Dear Jody,

Get yourself an Echoplex and get to work.

Yours truly,

Javier

-----Original Message-----
From: MrBERWELL@aol.com [mailto:MrBERWELL@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday 09 January 1999 10:50 PM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Enough Already!! and more


In a message dated 1/9/99 11:39:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kriist@aol.com
writes:

>
>  Right now there is more than enough devices for looping.


Yes, looping has caught on.  It has caught on so well in fact that you have
new people joining this mailing list all the time.  Sometimes these new
people
have questions about looping devices.  One would think that this
(undoubtedly
expert filled) list would be a great place to get answers!

So to all the 15 or so people who replied to the "looping has caught on"
thread, can a few of you recommend a looping device suitable for vocals, one
that is foot controllable.  If I missed the FAQ, someone point me in the
right
direction.  Email me personally if this is way off topic.

Jody

PS- loop content: saw someone looping acoustic drums and percussion tonight.
Christine Bard at Tonic in NYC.   She had pickups everywhere, even on
cymbals.
She was opening for Eyvind Kang who came out with Marc Ribot, then Eyvind
split after about ten minutes so he could sit in with Beck on Saturday Night
Live.  I hope he didnt get paid for the Tonic gig!


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>In a message dated 1/9/99 11:39:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kriist@aol.com

>So to all the 15 or so people who replied to the "looping has caught on"
>thread, can a few of you recommend a looping device suitable for vocals, one
>that is foot controllable.  If I missed the FAQ, someone point me in the right
>direction.  Email me personally if this is way off topic.
-------
Go to the following page - almost everything you want to know is there.
www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html

I recommend the Oberheim Echoplex.

Sanford.

PS I *may* be selling mine (including pedal, fully loaded RAM[16 megs] and
with a Lexicon Vortex). If it goes, the whole set will go for $810 +
shipping.
I'll know more next week.

btw, even if I don't sell mine, I would still recommend the EDP - it's
heads and shoulders above the rest and will keep you busy for a long time
if vocal looping is your thing.


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 10 11:41:51 1999
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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:36:51 -0700
From: J- <lobo27@boulder.quik.com>
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Yes indeed, looping may in fact be catching on in the mainstream.  So is being
"alternative" or using heroin, or Buddhism, or stupidity (like my comments
here!).  Is any of it worthy of such lengthy discussion?  Perhaps one on one, but
maybe the entire list isn't interested.  Maybe many are.

I definately appreciate being on this list and getting answers to questions, but
sometimes the "philosophical" level of banter on monitors or the popularity of
looping gets kind of silly.  I'm not saying I don't respect your views, but...

If you like looping, loop.  If you think it's becoming too mainstream and that
bothers you, loop or don't loop.  For the past 12 years I've been doing my own
music primarily for myself and a select group of friends.  It definately has to
be in your heart to create soundscapes that give pleasure to one's mind.  If you
enjoy it, others might, maybe a small label will distribute your stuff, maybe
you'll break even.... or if you aspire to become a big name, go for it!   Do what
you enjoy!

I've said too much!!!  Sorry.

J-

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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:12:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rev. Doubt-Goat" <dgoat@rocketmail.com>
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93

---Kriist@aol.com wrote:
> Also, what is all of this nonsense about wanting
looping to considered a
> legitimate instrument.
> By who?
> Do all of you need society to tell you it's 'ok' to
use that shinny box?

RFLOL!!! That's great. "Please Officer, I thought it
was OK to loop!" Classical guitar has suffered from
this malaise for a long time. Still, the medium *can*
be the message, at times.

> I think all of you(I'm addressing the ones who sent
the mail {I dont want to
> throw a blanket statement out there on all of
you})are overly conserned with
> being accpeted by society, your peers, consumers,
'musicians'...etc.....

Well, being social animals, a certain amount of
concern about being "accepted" is natural. YMMV of
course.

> "Art is you ability to percieve it."

Is this also a John Cage quote?

93
Rev. Doubt-GOat
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 10 14:35:23 1999
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"Groups with guitars are on their way out."
    - Decca exec Dick Rowe, Jan. 1962, explaining why he wouldn't sign the
Beatles.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 10 15:39:06 1999
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Hello Jody, 

I think any of the loop machines are fine with vocals, i.e. Echoplex,
Jamman (you'll have to look for one of these used), Boomerang etc. These
are of course "only" loopers, if you want to do any sound-mangling
you'll need additional effects. 

An interesting alternative for vocals might also be the DL8000 from Korg
with a somewhat limited max. looping duration, but with great modulation
effects etc. It's been discussed here recently, you can check the
archives for more information. Or just get yourself an Echoplex together
with a multieffects unit if your pocketbook is feeling particularly
generous.

Interesting comments concerning Christine Bard. I also play drums and
percussion with heavy use of loops, FX, contact mics (also on cymbals -
these sound great when down-pitched and/or delayed) etc. I saw her a few
years back here in Berlin with Marc Ribot where she was just beginning
to use looping and other effects. So she's doing solo gigs now? What did
it sound like - was it more textural-based looping or was she also doing
rhythm-sync'ed stuff? I'd love to hear more about her current setup. If
you could, please tell us more.

Thanks,
rob
-the man cable-


MrBERWELL@aol.com schrieb:
> 
> In a message dated 1/9/99 11:39:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kriist@aol.com
> writes:
> 
> >
> >  Right now there is more than enough devices for looping.
> 
> Yes, looping has caught on.  It has caught on so well in fact that you have
> new people joining this mailing list all the time.  Sometimes these new people
> have questions about looping devices.  One would think that this (undoubtedly
> expert filled) list would be a great place to get answers!
> 
> So to all the 15 or so people who replied to the "looping has caught on"
> thread, can a few of you recommend a looping device suitable for vocals, one
> that is foot controllable.  If I missed the FAQ, someone point me in the right
> direction.  Email me personally if this is way off topic.
> 
> Jody
> 
> PS- loop content: saw someone looping acoustic drums and percussion tonight.
> Christine Bard at Tonic in NYC.   She had pickups everywhere, even on cymbals.
> She was opening for Eyvind Kang who came out with Marc Ribot, then Eyvind
> split after about ten minutes so he could sit in with Beck on Saturday Night
> Live.  I hope he didnt get paid for the Tonic gig!




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Subject: Re: looping device for vocals?
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hey jody....


> A friend of mine has been asking for recommendations on a device for
creating
> vocal loops.  I've been eyeing the Boomerang, but wonder how it 

i get great vocal loops with a variety of devices...all the way fom the
digitech (frisell-model) 8 sec. floor pedal to teh various digitech 'time
machine' (i have 2)..also the KORG SDD 2000.. as well. basically all ya
gotta do is come up with the input level that doesn't suck...

andre'

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Subject: Re: Enough Already!!
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At 8:36 AM -0800 1/10/99, J- wrote:
>Yes indeed, looping may in fact be catching on in the mainstream.  So is being
>"alternative" or using heroin, or Buddhism, or stupidity (like my comments
>here!).  Is any of it worthy of such lengthy discussion?  Perhaps one on
>one, but
>maybe the entire list isn't interested.  Maybe many are.
>
>I definately appreciate being on this list and getting answers to
>questions, but
>sometimes the "philosophical" level of banter on monitors or the popularity of
>looping gets kind of silly.  I'm not saying I don't respect your views, but...

These more thoughtful and philisophical disucssions about looping have been
part of this list since the day it started, and are a key part of it's
purpose. Check the archives. If the point of the list was just to ask
simple questions about technical minutiae of one piece of gear or another,
I never would have bothered starting it, cause that's real boring. Thinking
about what you do and defining some purpose or meaning for it are important
for most people, and discussing it with others is a key element. It's a
healthy thing. Trying to put it down out of your own discomfort, well
sorry, but IMHO that's a bit sad.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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<<  A friend of mine has been asking for recommendations on a device for
 creating
 > vocal loops.  I've been eyeing the Boomerang,  >>

jody......the rang is fun with vocals.....you can do many simple quick things
with it......up/down an octave, real-time backwards vocal, rapid fire
harmonies (just layering vocals on top of each other)......vocals going
backward and forward at the same time.....all of this over a loop length of 1
sec. to a little over 4 mins.......the attenuation is nice in that it begins
to remove the original loop after you get to about loop number 4 (many things
can be done with this)......so with the addition of some processor type boxes,
which you will be able to control with your hands because the rang is under
the power of your toes, you will have many options at your disposal.......all
in all, well worth spending some time with.....in fact,ive taken all the
strings off my guitar and now just yell into the pick-ups and loop just that,
ain't no one going to call me a guitarist anymore!.........michael

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 11 00:21:41 1999
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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:55:06 -0600
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From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: What got ya to where you are...
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Hi, folks,
	I am curious about everyone involved in looping and their influences. What
brought you to where you are now? And, what keeps you here?
Looking forward to everyone's answers,
Jeff McLeod
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

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From: dan sumner <permadan@yahoo.com>
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Mcleods,
My begining with looping started with trying to get a Andy Summers
type tone using a digital delay.  I fell in love with," I Advance
Masked," and have never recovered.  Permagrin(My Band) was once a nine
piece mini-orchestra in the tradition of George Russell(My teacher),
Gill Evans et all.  After I nearly went broke and insane I got a
jamman and paired it down to treated guitar and percussion.  Things
got way better fast, but it took Louis and I a long time to find out
how to make music that made sense in this format.  We've finally found
a small but devoted following in New Orleans, a city that is VERY
hostile to new sounds.  In addition to the jamman, I also use a
digitech 2101, a GR1 and a korg digital delay, and occasionally a
boomerang.

Dan Sumner 
P.S. thanx for finally changing the subject



---Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, folks,
> 	I am curious about everyone involved in looping and their
influences. What
> brought you to where you are now? And, what keeps you here?
> Looking forward to everyone's answers,
> Jeff McLeod
> __________________________________________
> This is not here--
> And now is almost over... 
> http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Kriist@aol.com writes:

>P.P.S.  Thanks for responding to the mail I sent you DT  <~~~~SARCASM
pls see my 'looping catching on'-post.

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tcn62@ici.net writ thusly:

>I don't want to put words in someone's mouth, but I think this is
>antithetical to the point Paul made re DT's view of looping being perceived
>as a fad rather than an autonomous field of discipline... I don't think
>any
>of us are (at least intentionally) advocating the use of looping as a
>substitute for instrumental competency.

i haven't yet read this in-print version of my so-called 'view of looping',
so:
i can't confirm that what's been printed is what i actually *said* (or, even:
*think*):
sounds suspicious, though, as i *certainly* do support & encourage loop-
education (& proselytizing, to some degree),
especially in regards to relevant m.i. manufacturers.
and: i, for one, am convinced that 'looping' *is*, in fact, becoming
increasingly validated out there in the dual worlds of music *& music-stuff*.
best,
dt

ah yeah, to the apparently mildly embittered rodrigo, since ya posted
publicly:
sorry.
i hope you'll understand that i'm engaged in an extremely busy,
responsibility-laden life:
family w/children/friends/gigs/recording/travel/etc.....:
life, yo!!!
i'm finding its rather difficult (& slow-going) to respond personally to all
the 'requests for info' that arrive, here, via mail & email:
no personal offense is intended by my long delays in reciprocating
correspondence.

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From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
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1) chet atkins,the ventures,duane eddy,howard roberts all led me to the guitar
(there were many others.
2) the beatles led me to, how did they get those sounds (there were many
others)
3) synths (wow, listen to those sounds)
4) the radio shows: "music form the hearts of space" "new sounds" and "echos"
, i must get a synth
5) the change in "space music" from etherial washes to a more rythmic "world
beat" type music
6) my casio cz 5000's 8 trac sequencer and the accidental finding of placeing
rests (i step write everything) into my loops, this led to alot of arpegio
type algorythmic type stuff
7) tradeing a few drinks at a bar for a delay pedal, now im playin the "big
room"
8) no longer being asked to jam with people, the things i would do to almond
brothers songs was not appreciated
9) the never ending urge to hear my music in a completed form
10) the 4 trac recorder, now we start to get wacky
11) the 5 sec. delay and sampleing capability of my alesis Q2, oh boy!
12) that phone call to mike at boomerang music
13) the rang, its all over now
14) discovery of loopers delite, i am not alone!
that in a nut shell is were i've come from..................michael

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what is the status of the eastern loopers get together, the last i read was
"lets take it off list".....i think keeping it on list might be a learning
experience for all of us to see how this might be done, to spread the word
(loop) in other words.....i think what is necessary is keeping the "subject"
box in the e-mail consistant so that those who are not interested or want the
topic changed can just use the good ol delete button and not be caught up in
our rambelings.....i am very interested in some form of get together and would
be more than happy to work on this project.........michael

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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:47:05 -0800
From: scott kungha drengsen <kungha@earthlink.net>
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My biggest musical influences were Hendrix,Scott LaFaro and Joni/Jaco
duets.I'd always been attracted to playing the entirety of the bass and
multitracted bass, guitar and "other" sounds especially on six-string
fretless.Then I became almost obsessed(my girlfriend would say
completly) with the playing of Mick Karn(still my favorite
bassist)And,what put me over the edge as an unabashed loopist was the
desire to explore the singing,rythmic bass ostinatos and fantasticly
beautiful guitar textures(David Torn)of the POLYTOWN album,albeit as a
solo bassist.....
                      Thanks for the chance to chime in,I too am looking
forward to other folks answers..                  scott
                                             
http://www.basscapes.com

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From: Paul.C.Wright@ercgroup.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:17:31 -0600
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If I might throw my $.02 in, I've found DT's response times to be more than
adequate, and applaud the fact that he takes the time to interact with us at
all, other than as a voyeur.  I was just telling my wife a couple of weeks
ago about a on-line coversation that I had had with DT regarding BLUE, and
the upcoming release of one of my favs - Jim Carroll, and how refreshing it
was to talk to an artist who felt that our viewpoints were worth discussing.
It's just not found often...

As far as looping catching on; it has...

Ciao,

-----Original Message-----
From: Texture444@aol.com [mailto:Texture444@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:31 AM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: RE: Looping Catching on? dt's potential disclaimer



i haven't yet read this in-print version of my so-called 'view of looping',
so:
i can't confirm that what's been printed is what i actually *said* (or,
even:
*think*):
sounds suspicious, though, as i *certainly* do support & encourage loop-
education (& proselytizing, to some degree),
especially in regards to relevant m.i. manufacturers.
and: i, for one, am convinced that 'looping' *is*, in fact, becoming
increasingly validated out there in the dual worlds of music *&
music-stuff*.
best,
dt

ah yeah, to the apparently mildly embittered rodrigo, since ya posted
publicly:
sorry.
i hope you'll understand that i'm engaged in an extremely busy,
responsibility-laden life:
family w/children/friends/gigs/recording/travel/etc.....:
life, yo!!!
i'm finding its rather difficult (& slow-going) to respond personally to all
the 'requests for info' that arrive, here, via mail & email:
no personal offense is intended by my long delays in reciprocating
correspondence.

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93

---Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
wrote:
>
> Hi, folks,
> 	I am curious about everyone involved in looping
and their influences. What
> brought you to where you are now? And, what keeps
you here?
> Looking forward to everyone's answers,

1. Robert Fripp and Brian Eno
2. Jamman and a keen disregard for the audio saftey
of those around me ;-)

93
Rev. Doubt-Goat
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Leo...

You're dead on about David Torn.  What an artist and what a guy!

Best,
Kevin

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---Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Hi, folks,
> I am curious about everyone involved in looping and their influences. What
> brought you to where you are now? And, what keeps you here? Looking forward to
> everyone's answers,

Fripp of course... also tape loop experiments with friends in the early 70's. 
This led to much use of heavy regen on any box with any delay times over ~750ms.
Lots of heavy clouds coming out of my old Roland SDE3000 and Digitech IPS33b! 
When I heard about the JamMan, I was first in the door to grab one and have been
in love with looping ever since. It was great to find David Torn and Bill 
Frissell doing their own unique variants. Terry Riley and Brian Eno both fueled 
the fire for different reasons. Now the lust for an OB DEPro looms large!

Future electronic hybrids and cross breeding with DJ's seems very attractive to 
me and I'm on the hunt for any collaborators live or via cyberspace to balance 
out my guitar madness. I've just added a E-mu Emax sampler to my instrument 
list, so things should get deeper and sicker soon!

Pulse on!
Miko

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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:57:22 -0800
From: Neil Goldstein <ngold@home.com>
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c. 1983 started using a program on the IBM PC called Texture. This was one of the
first midi sequencers and had an architecture based on looping patterns and
linking patterns into songs with realtime controls for many elements. The whole
paradigm of Looping started there for me...

Still not sure where I am...And in a sense where I strive to be is: being
comfortable and free in not knowing...

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Not being able to tune my guitar,a quadroverb, and a mother that didn't love me....

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In a message dated 1/11/99 1:33:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Nemoguitt@aol.com
writes:

> what is the status of the eastern loopers get together,

so far not so good.........
a couple response so far 
one almost exterminating the subject off this list (which i kinda agreed with
until this last related post...........more below).
i reside in s.c. so unfortunately can't help landing a venue, etc.,
but if you guys up there in the north east can arrange for this thing to
happen i'll be there (with at least a couple months notice of course). 

>the last i read was
>  "lets take it off list".....i think keeping it on list might be a learning
>  experience for all of us to see how this might be done, to spread the word
>  (loop) in other words.....i think what is necessary is keeping the
"subject"
>  box in the e-mail consistant so that those who are not interested or want 
> the
>  topic changed can just use the good ol delete button and not be caught up
in
>  our rambelings.....
i agree.......this subject to me seems as relevant as any other looping
subject that gets discussed on this list. might just learn how something like
this can or cannot work.

>i am very interested in some form of get together and 
> would be more than happy to work on this project.........michael
i'm in 
just let me know what i might do to further progress
your thoughts?
brian
electric bird noise
http://members.aol.com/ebnoise/index.html

  

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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:02:23 -0800
From: lance glover <baumhaus@earthlink.net>
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Jeff & Vonda McLeod wrote:

> Hi, folks,
>         I am curious about everyone involved in looping and their influences. What
> brought you to where you are now? And, what keeps you here?
> Looking forward to everyone's answers,
> Jeff McLeod
> __________________________________________
> This is not here--
> And now is almost over...
> http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

this pulled me outa lurkerhood long enough to ponder the question (not that there
ain't plenty to ponder on this list, loop'zens, but I've been so *slow* to get up to
speed on my 'plex that I've felt like there's a serious consciousness gap to bridge
before my comments on loopage are worth much to you all ;^)). anyway, I had this
fantasy (after recalling the magical 'phase-shifting' of steve reich's music for
eighteen musicians) of creating a sound piece that passed through a sequence of
layered loops much the way certain aquatic species (squids come to mind) pass through
patterns of coloration as they attempt to camouflage themselves (if this is too
vague, I'll try again: a pattern resulting from the gradual shifting through a
sequence of loop layers such that loops exit out the 'tail' of the sequence as new
ones form at the 'head'; suffice to say I'm still working on it). oh yeah, eno,
fripp, frisell, the aforementioned reich, riley et al, and stuart dempster's
mind-blowing trombone and didg' stuff from some dang beautiful abbey back in the
mid-eighties (not looping per se, but great reverberant-play on the standing waves in
the space; if I find the lp I'll post to the list for anyone interested...).

back to front and front to back

lance g.


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Okay, you asked for it. :)

Born 1956 in New Orleans.  We moved to Kansas City, MO shortly thereafter
(1957) and my first memories of specifically Listening to the radio involve
Big Band, Swing, and Jazz, which was mostly what was on KCMO back then.  At
some time later I was listening to James Brown, and doing imitations of his
screams on the corner in front of our house (still can, too!), so I know I
was exposed to that, Motown, all that, before the Beatles hit.  I remember
seeing them (you couldn't really hear them that well for the screaming) on
Ed Sullivan.  In '64 we moved to Northern NJ, here I continued my diet of
Motown and Beatles, and the music inbetween (the staple of WMCA and
WAB(eatle)C in NYC, via a transistor radio of one kind or another underneath
my pillow.  Even when I went to summer camp I smuggled a transistor radio
with me.  Went through a lot of batteries, of course!  But by 1966, I'd
pretty much consumed popular music at that stage, though the "Beatles/Jesus"
controversy pretty much put a moratorium on open listening to the
Beatles)and by '68, armed with that youthful disaster known as An Allowance,
I began buying singles.

Really pop stuff.  Jackson 5, Edwin Starr, Mamas and Papas, Temptations,
Beatles, Peter & Gordon, Supremes...

About that time I was (probably purposefully) introduced to Beethoven via my
parents and Time-Life, which produced a marvelous D.Grammophon set of all
his works.  My brother can be credited with saving my musical life
officially though, getting me "Best of Cream" and CCR's "Bayou Country" for
Christmas/Birthday.  From then on it was Rock for me, thanks.  Though I
showed an appetite for soundtrack albums even then... "2001", "Grand Prix,"
and so forth, with a real preference for the incidental music from films,
stuff you never hear on the radio.

It's that point - 1968 -that I target when I think about ambient/situational
music as a part of my musical construct.  I was especially attracted to the
Ligeti pieces on the "2001" soundtrack, and still like them a lot (even when
MST3K does their version of "Monolith Music".  Kubrick, one must say, must
have introduced a lot of people to classical music in this manner.  On the
heels of hearing bits of it on the radio, I got the "Clockwork Orange"
soundtrack, and, armed with my love of Beethoven, proceeded to teach myself
how to play the old "Ode to Joy" variations put forth by (then) Walter
Carlos.  I didn't however buy the "Switched-On Bach" album - as funds were
limited on a paper route's pay, and everyone played the hell out of it
anyway - but instead continued to explore Other-Than-Normal music.  Besides
my rock tastes, which were pretty standard I guess (could anyone not include
the Stones?).

It was an eye-opener to find the single of "Whole Lotta Love" including the
drum solo, which I bought right before my first school dance.  The drum solo
didn't help me envision dancing though.

I went on to the Moody Blues (from "To Our Children's Children's Children"),
Alice Cooper, King Crimson, Pink Floyd (starting with "A Nice Pair"), Black
Sabbath, John McLaughlin/Mahavishnu Orchestra, which could represent the Art
Rock contingent, I suppose.  I felt confident enough in a semi-repressive
household at that point to buy "Are You Experienced?", which had no small
effect on me, either!

When I took control of an unused acoustic guitar left by my father from old
lessons, figured out a tuning I could understand (EAEAEG, in that
proportion), and found I could learn to play a lot of modern (ie "cool")
music, I was heretofore attached to the guitar, and vice-versa.  I didn't
play in front of people, however, until 1978, and this was such a disaster
that it not only merits its own story, but caused a moratorium on
performance that lasted until 1990.  That on its own is a journey of strange
repute, but it didn't subvert my interest in other-than-guitar-based music.

I don't ever recall focusing in on any particular guitarist at that time,
besides Jimi, insofar as personality data is concerned, (though I remember a
lot of people deifying Clapton) up until 1976 when I caught "The Midnight
Special," then hosted by the late Wolfman Jack, with special guest B. B.
King.- wherein he passed on two things, [1] the Real Story of Lucille, and
[2] how he does his vibrato.  I hadn't stretched strings with other than a
whammy bar by that point (on a $49.95 electric Sakova from Sam Goody's that
my parents bought me for Christmas), and that on its own I count a major
step forward in technique.  The first time I tried it on acoustic (B.B. said
it makes you work harder) was on Bowie's "Fame".  I still can't play like
B.B., but then who can?  He put forth, though, the element that I needed at
that time, to go off on my own path, instead of imitating others.  But then
I am nothing if not a fierce individualist, and so this appealed a great
deal to someone just approaching 20.

College exposed me to yet more interesting sources of music, especially
Frank Zappa, Genesis, Yes, and a string of obvious Southern Rock items like
The Allman Bros., Marshall-Tucker, and so forth (I WAS at college in NC).
1977 found me in Syracuse, attempting to continue an already spotty academic
career (the first attempt cut short by Mono), throughout which people
attempted to introduce me to both Brian Eno's and Robert Fripp's work, to no
avail.  I was obstinate then.  It wasn't until 1980 when I found myself home
again, taking courses at night, that I began getting their work, and really
listening to it.  Fripp's in particular - in combination with his
monologues - lent me a sense of structure in my playing, and my thinking,
which I admit I was desperately in need of, both then and beforehand.

This is becoming a monologue on its own, and will be continued later after
some chicken soup and a nap.

Stephen Goodman  -  It's... The Loop Of The Week!
EarthLight Studios  -  http://www.earthlight.net/Studios

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 11 18:16:30 1999
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I am looking to purchase a looping device.  Basically my purpose for
this TODAY is to lay rhythm tracks to practice over.

Is the Boomerang a good piece of equipment?
How does it compare to a Lexicon Jam Man?
Does any one out there have one that could tell me what to expect to
pay?
Any must have add-ons?

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 11 18:21:41 1999
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From: "andre" <andre@monmouth.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:16:36 -0500
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Hey

any one have experience withe the HOHNER steinberger copies??? any pros and
cons?? they seem to be sanctioned by steiny, their logo is on there....

thanx

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 11 18:37:36 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:37:23 -0800 (PST)
From: petr dolak <pepetr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Alternative/Looping in Cleveland area
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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I am going to move to Cleveland, Ohio and look for contacts on people
involved in alternative/looping/experimental/etc. creativity.  Anyone
like that in Cleveland/Akron/around, interested in perhaps some common
projects?

Please respond to my address: pepetr@hotmail.com

An info is here: 
http://www.annihilist.com/cgi-bin/profiles.cgi?step=view_profile&id=120598165113
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 11 18:38:53 1999
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From: SoundFNR@aol.com
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Originally my loop set up was a substitute for playing in an 
ensemble which would consist of individuals with 'certain abilities'.

My challenge is to  use the technology without sounding repetitive.(or
mechanical).

The way instruments interact is what drives this. 
Or rather the way I wish they could.

Apparently cloning isn't an option.
So the option too build up layers of interlocking sounds by electronic 
means is appealing. And using electronic mutation to allow one instrument
to have radically different tone colours. 

Andy Butler

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From: Todd Quincy <tquincy@davitt-hanser.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: Alternative/Looping in Cleveland area
Date: 	Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:40:36 -0500
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cincinnati is as close as i can get, but is there anyone in cincinnati
interested in a looping project?
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	petr dolak [SMTP:pepetr@yahoo.com]
> Sent:	Monday, January 11, 1999 6:37 PM
> To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject:	Alternative/Looping in Cleveland area
> 
> I am going to move to Cleveland, Ohio and look for contacts on people
> involved in alternative/looping/experimental/etc. creativity.  Anyone
> like that in Cleveland/Akron/around, interested in perhaps some common
> projects?
> 
> Please respond to my address: pepetr@hotmail.com
> 
> An info is here: 
> http://www.annihilist.com/cgi-bin/profiles.cgi?step=view_profile&id=12
> 0598165113
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Todd Quincy <tquincy@davitt-hanser.com>
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1) Hearing a jamman in perfomance and thinking to myself, how is he
doing that is what got me started. 

2) Being able to create massive mounts of sound and rhythm without any
planned direction that blows my mind and my friends is what i enjoy. And
the next day trying to capture what i did the night before with
precission but always being tempted to venture down another mind blowing
spontaneous creation is what keeps me going.



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jeff & Vonda McLeod [SMTP:subversive@mindspring.com]
> Sent:	Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:55 PM
> To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject:	What got ya to where you are...
> 
> 
> I am curious about everyone involved in looping and their influences.
> What
> brought you to where you are now? And, what keeps you here?
> Looking forward to everyone's answers,
> Jeff McLeod
> __________________________________________
> This is not here--
> And now is almost over... 
> http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

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From: "Liebig, Steuart A." <LiebigSA@Maritz.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: Enough Already!! . . . "good" avant-garde music
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:39:31 -0600
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> Collins [SMTP:collinsclan@sprintmail.com]
> 
> 
> You've got that one right. The only parts of the US that you can get good
> avant-garde music is NYC. 
> 
	** i would have to say that this is absolutely untrue. having been
at some really great "avant-garde" musical experiences in both los angeles
and san francisco - - as well as great bands from places like new mexico - -
i have to take exception to this comment.

	a friend of mine, who is a very well-known bassist on the nyc
avant-garde scene and does much touring in europe, etc, has given me this
nugget of wisdom (when attempting to lure me to relocate to nyc):

	"geography is perception."

	your comment, IMHO, does nothing but prove his point. in my view,
the unfortunate reality is that there are people all over the states who are
doing interesting things who will never get the recognition they deserve.
why? i feel that it is because of the fact that the nyc press is convinced
that what goes on there is the center of the (avant-garde) universe, and
that other people in the press follow suit. (i think that you could look at
people like eric dolphy, ornette coleman, charles mingus, don cherry, etc.
who started there thing in la, but didn't "matter" until they went to nyc.)

	an example: here in la, the press almost never writes about people
unless they come from nyc. all of a sudden they open their eyes and say,
"oh, look what's happening here," and then go back into hybernation when the
guys from nyc leave. the same thing happens with people who go to see shows,
they neglect their own hometown scene, it dries up and then they wonder why
people from other parts of the country won't come here (and they don't have
place to play).

	there is plenty of good music being made all over the states, the
problem is that people feel that it only comes from nyc, thus creating a
self-fulfilling prophecy. 

	if you want to talk about the dearth of places to see shows, i might
be inclined to agree. however, people often say that there's nothing going
on in la, yet there are three or four different series that provide this
kind of music - - not as many as nyc to be sure. if you feel stuck in your
town, i guess you can relocate to nyc, or try to develop your own hometown
scene . . . if you can deal with the frustration.

	to be sure, the states in general are a tough nut to crack. i played
with julius hemphill for a number of years. in that time period, we did
three fairly lengthy tours of europe - - and only four nights in the states.
for getting gigs in europe, the magic of being from nyc is often still quite
necessary.

	you mentioned toronto, i've also heard some great stuff coming out
of montreal on the ambiances magnetiqiue label.

	stig

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From: "Jonathan El-Bizri" <jbiz@linkexchange.com>
To: "Loopers-Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Boomerang
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:28:02 -0800
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> I am looking to purchase a looping device.  Basically my purpose for
> this TODAY is to lay rhythm tracks to practice over.
>
> Is the Boomerang a good piece of equipment?
> How does it compare to a Lexicon Jam Man?
> Does any one out there have one that could tell me what to expect to
> pay?
> Any must have add-ons?
>
>

I have a Jamman, and a friend of mine has a boomerang. The boomerang's audio
quality is nowwhere near the jamman's. The Jamman's is about as good as you
need for live situations, though it is definitely a tiny bit dull to my
ears. However the boomerang can get 2 minutes of audio whereas the Jamman
can only get 30 seconds, and uses very obscure memory chips. There is an
beta 'hackware' eprom upgrade for the Jamman that has been mentioned here
before, that a large number of upgrades to the basic jamman, and makes it a
lot more powerful (I'm going by the manual here) I sent away to the guy who
built it, who is generously making available for free, but have yet to
receive the chips, and try them out.

I'm thinking about selling my Jamman, if anyone is interested. I need a
longer looper with more features, like an Echoplex, though I have heard some
critical comments on this list about the echoplex's audio quality.

I'm a spoilt brat aren't I? Nothing is good enough for my ears :P

bIz

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From: "James Ko" <Kojaque@email.msn.com>
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Subject: Monitors and Amps
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:49:27 -0500
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Hi all.

I've been lurking for a bit here and I am a new comer to this whole looping
thang.  I am just starting to look for items to create a small person studio
for myself and would like some purchacing advice from anyone out there.

I've read through the studio monitor string last week (the pros and cons of
the Yamahas) but was wondering if anyone had any experience with the Alesis
Monitor Ones.  They seem to be priced to compete with the Yamahas.  I too
have friends who either swear by the yamahas or dispise them (the consensus
I got was about the same as the opinions given here and Looper's Delight).
Are the Alesis any better/worse/the same?

I was also wondering what a good reference amp might be.  Is the Alesis one
OK?  Hafler?  Carvin?

Thanks a bunch.

Jim Ko



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From: Jamie Lack <jlack@auran.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: What got ya to where you are...
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:59:39 +1000
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This should be good for a laugh.

My earliest recollection of looping would be when I was only a few years
old, and I discovered how to work my parents record player.
Sometimes the record would skip on an interesting part of the record and
form an almost seamless loop.
Sometimes I would manually shift the needle to acheive this effect.

After my childhood I remained quite seperated from music until I was
sixteen, when I discovered late night music television. That was the end
of my days as an early riser, but the start of a love of music.

My first favourite band was Aerosmith, and I quickly turned onto bands
like Living Colour, Faith No More, Janes Addiction and Fishbone.
I was a happy metalhead for a while too, and absorbed many "classic"
influences such as Led Zeppelin and Santana.

Soon I started wanting more complexity and colour than the new music of
the (by then) early nineties was providing.
It must have been some sort of reaction to the domination of grunge
music, because I headed straight for King Crimson. (Much thanks to
Vernon Reid for mentioning his influences in a guitar mag)

Then it was all over.  
Crimson => Robert Fripp => Looping
Crimson => Tony Levin => Stick

And for the last three years  I have been listening to the inevitable
music to come from looping and stick sources. 

Parallel to this I have discovered the beauty of Miles Davis' 70's era
music, much classical and non-western music, and have been playing a bit
of my own music.

However, my biggest influence is not from a musical source as such, but
from the world around me.
I think it stems from watching too much of the Muppet show as a kid, but
i observe that a lot of the activity of everday life has qualities that
I can best express in musical or audio\visual terms. 
Hence my occupation\pastime as an animator.

I have only tentatively ventured into the realm of looping music and
visual terms, but i intend through the use of computers to create some
connections between audio and visual loops.

I have thought that there are two approaches here.
Since looping is often spontaneous, it would be good to be able to loop
images spontaneously too.
At the same time, I don't know that the technology is there yet, and so
I may approach it from a more structured and planned stance, more like
writing a visual score to accompany music :)

End of story
JL 



> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod [mailto:subversive@mindspring.com]
> >Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 2:55 PM
> >To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> >Subject: What got ya to where you are...
> >
> >
> >Hi, folks,
> >	I am curious about everyone involved in looping and 
> >their influences. What
> >brought you to where you are now? And, what keeps you here?
> >Looking forward to everyone's answers,
> >Jeff McLeod
> >__________________________________________
> >This is not here--
> >And now is almost over... 
> >http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/
> >

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 11 20:02:40 1999
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From: "Future Perfect" <artmusic@gte.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Roland EV-5
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:55:39 -0500
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Does anyone know what value and type of potentiometer is in the Roland EV-5
expression pedal? I do not have a picture of one, but I would also like to
know if this pedal has a pre-connected cord (stereo? mono cable?) or if you
have to supply your own.

Thanks!
Dave Eichenberger
*********************************************************************
'Future Perfect' - art music
guitars-loops-flutes-devices-voices
http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/

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In a message dated 1/10/99 3:40:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
r_t_cummings@csi.com writes:

> Interesting comments concerning Christine Bard. I also play drums and
>  percussion with heavy use of loops, FX, contact mics (also on cymbals -
>  these sound great when down-pitched and/or delayed) etc. I saw her a few
>  years back here in Berlin with Marc Ribot where she was just beginning
>  to use looping and other effects. So she's doing solo gigs now? What did
>  it sound like - was it more textural-based looping or was she also doing
>  rhythm-sync'ed stuff?

What she was doing was definitely more textural based.  Not much going on
"groove wise".  I wasnt blown away by what she did, but the potential is
there.  She had a real piecemeal drum kit, with various pedals scattered all
over it, and what looked like a small Mackie mixer.  Sorry, I didn't take a
good look at it up close.  I think she was getting her loops going via a foot-
pedal type unit.  I am pretty sure she will be at Tonic again this Thursday,
with Marc Ribot and violinist Eyvind Kang, but she might just be playing
acoustic drums. 


-Jody 

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In a message dated 1/11/99 7:03:28 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
Paul.C.Wright@ercgroup.com writes:

> If I might throw my $.02 in, I've found DT's response times to be more than
>  adequate, and applaud the fact that he takes the time to interact with us
at
>  all, other than as a voyeur.  

a slow delay doesnt not bother me at all, in fact i took that into
consideration when i wrote

david, 
i understand that you, as well as everybody esle on this planet, lead a busy
busy life 
i anticipated a long delay in hearing a reply
and even if my questions at that time were a tad on the innocent side i would
have appreciated a, "sorry, cant answer, im busy"
i thought that you never read your mail
until i got on the list and saw that you did regularly
this showed me a grave disinterest in whatever i had to say

rodrigo

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My earliest cognitive realization of "looping" was a track called
"Sweatloaf" from a Butthole Surfers album entitled "Locust Abortion
Technician.  This was 1987, mind you  I was thirteen years old and was
quite happy with my transition from listening to Iron Maiden and Motley
Crue to Metallica and Slayer. The eighties were an evil time to be an
impressionable youth. Needless to say, I didn't understand and was a
little scared of the Butthole Surfers.
    Yes yes, I listened to goddamn Fishbone and Jane's Addiction  a few
years later.
    Then I began my  flirtation with psychedelics.
    and then it went a little something like this:
 
husker du
to
fugazi
to
sonic youth
to
my bloody valentine (this would be were the "looping' influence came in)

to
flying saucer attack
to
stars of the lid
to
merzbow and japanese noise
to
evan parker, derek bailey, AMM et al. 
to
Tony Conrad, Lamont Young...minimalism

    I find the echoplex to be a supreme tool for the chaos loving
minimalist...if you set it to a loop time of 7 or eight seconds you car
really make some complex pieces rather quickly.
    Okay...Blutorge.
 

 

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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:40:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Randy Jones <ranjones@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Looping Catching on? dt's potential disclaimer
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Kim,

Doesn't this list have a NO WHINERS policy/leave DT alone policy?
Jeez...



---Kriist@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/11/99 7:03:28 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
> Paul.C.Wright@ercgroup.com writes:
> 
> > If I might throw my $.02 in, I've found DT's response times to be
more than
> >  adequate, and applaud the fact that he takes the time to interact
with us
> at
> >  all, other than as a voyeur.  
> 
> a slow delay doesnt not bother me at all, in fact i took that into
> consideration when i wrote
> 
> david, 
> i understand that you, as well as everybody esle on this planet,
lead a busy
> busy life 
> i anticipated a long delay in hearing a reply
> and even if my questions at that time were a tad on the innocent
side i would
> have appreciated a, "sorry, cant answer, im busy"
> i thought that you never read your mail
> until i got on the list and saw that you did regularly
> this showed me a grave disinterest in whatever i had to say
> 
> rodrigo
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:09:09 -0500
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Floyd Miller <floyd@voicenet.com>
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>Does anyone know what value and type of potentiometer is in the Roland EV-5
>expression pedal? I do not have a picture of one, but I would also like to
>know if this pedal has a pre-connected cord (stereo? mono cable?) or if you
>have to supply your own.

I just measured mine.
It's preconnected cord has a TRS connector.  It's not
stereo but has the following connectivity as far as I can tell:

     Tip to one end of the potentiometer
     Ring to the other end of the potentiometer
     Sleeve to the Wiper of the potentiometer.

The potentiomenter seems to be about 8.8 Kohms (10K nominal I suppose).
With the pedal all the way forward, the sleeve and ring measure 0 ohms.
With the pedal all the way back, the tip and sleeve measure 0 ohms.

Hope this helps.
****************
  ********** Floyd Miller
    ****** floyd@voicenet.com
      ** http://www.voicenet.com/~floyd

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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:17:55 -0600
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Future Perfect wrote:

> Does anyone know what value and type of potentiometer is in the Roland EV-5
> expression pedal? I do not have a picture of one, but I would also like to
> know if this pedal has a pre-connected cord (stereo? mono cable?) or if you
> have to supply your own.
>
> Thanks!
> Dave Eichenberger

hi dave -

    1) the main pot is a 10k (no typo: 10k) with a 50k between it and ground,
the 50k being the adjustomatic on the side. i don't have my meter here or i'd
tell you exactly how it's wired up.
    2) the stereo wire is pre-connected.

bobdog

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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:16:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Stew Benedict <stewb@earthlink.net>
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Don't know the value, but the cable is supplied/part of the unit.

Stew

On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Future Perfect wrote:

> Does anyone know what value and type of potentiometer is in the Roland EV-5
> expression pedal? I do not have a picture of one, but I would also like to
> know if this pedal has a pre-connected cord (stereo? mono cable?) or if you
> have to supply your own.
> 
> Thanks!
> Dave Eichenberger
> *********************************************************************
> 'Future Perfect' - art music
> guitars-loops-flutes-devices-voices
> http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/
> 
> 

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I started looping in earnest in 1979-1980 in Ames, Iowa. I was a college
student at the time and had access to all sorts of cool A/V equipment at
the University. On weekends, I took home two Revoxes and did the
"Frippertronics" thing with a longish tape loop. I was playing in a heavy
metal chamber orchestra at the time ("The Nameless Anarchist Horde") and
tried to bring looping into our performances, without much luck. My
recollection was that everybody had trouble relating to rhytmic
idiosyncracies and suchlike. Anywho, I bagged it and wited until I had a
decent digital delay pedal (something by Digidesigns with a sampling
option...don't recall the name) in the mid 80s. Then samplers in the early
90s. Then a JamMan when it first appeared. Now a maxed EDP. 

Heaven, I'm in Heaven.

Hasta -> Dr Rico

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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:29:52 +0900 (JST)
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From: Morgan Fisher <morgan@gol.com>
Subject: Re: What got ya to where you are...
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Hi Loopers,

I've been lurking long enough - and what an active list this is - amazing!

Apologies for what may seem like blowing my own trumpet, but I'd like to
refer to one or two of my recorded works here as it may be relevant.

I got into looping first when I had a few weekly private lessons in
electronic music in a small but very creative London institute in about
1979 - my kindly and knowledgeable Swedish teacher introduced me to a
VCS3/twin-Revox setup which blew my mind - I soon got the same setup
myself, after a few limited but successful experiments using a Sony stereo
tape deck and pulling the tape away from between the rec/play heads and
looping it round a mike stand (a good way for those who only have one
tapedeck).

Later I saw a Stockhausen piece for string bass and tape delays in a church
- another mind-blower!

Later again I saw Frippertronics at the ICA in London - mind now in
tatters! Got to know Fripp at that time and he kindly provided a piece for
my "Miniatures" album (which had 51 one-minute pieces by all and sundry).
At first he said he would tape Queen Elizabeth's voice then slow it down so
it would - as he said - sound just like Prince Philip! Finally he sent me a
tape of him playing a cheesy little organ in what sounds like one of his
early polyrhythm experiments - probably the only piece on record of Fripp
on the organ. By the way, I am just putting the finishing touches to the
sequel, "Miniatures for the Millennium" - no release set as yet. Fripp is
on there again, jamming with Trey Gunn. Other loop-type stuff on this album
includes Terry Riley, Dagmar Andrtova (a Czech lady blasting an acoustic
guitar through echoes), a one-minute version of Gavin Bryars' epic "Jesus'
Blood Never Failed Me Yet", Daniel Figgis (Irish minimal grunge), Chris
Hughes (producer of McCartney, Tears for Fears, Robert Plant, etc., and a
Reich fan - his piece loops his 3-year old daughter's voice), and things
that are completely played or sung but sound looped by Piano Circus and
Meredith Monk.

One of my best looping projects was a 1980 album "Slow Music" with the
wonderful soprano sax player Lol Coxhill. Lol played a free version of
Handel's Largo. I then slowed down the tape of that to half speed, ran it
through the VCS3's filter (sweeping) and then through long tape delays, and
he played unerringly over that.

On moving to Japan, my Yamaha SPX1000 inspired me to see what happens when
you have two delays going (with a lot of feedback - say 90%) that are
almost the same length - e.g., 5 secs and 5.001 secs. It's interesting -
after a few repeats the echoes take on a thin metallic quality, emphasising
certain harmonics. By adjusting the second delay by a millisecond or so,
different harmonics can be emphasised.

I've always loved dub, since the heady days of '76/'77 when most of the
punk shows in London clubs also featured reggae/dub DJ's - a nice mix of
cultures very reminiscent of ten years earlier when it was soul (Otis,
James, Motown, Stax) plus rock (Who, Kinks, et al). So I am now the proud
owner of a Roland Space Echo which has plenty of nice wow and flutter and
filthy tape head noise. Also just picked up a Dynacord Echocord which is
similar but has an Echoplex-type slider to control the delay time.

My newest love is my TC2290 which goes up to 64 secs delay. Had to buy a
used one as, unbelievably, due to the unavailabity of a small part (some
kind of internal cable I believe) one can no longer buy upgrades to extend
the delay time over 10 sec, although the 2290 is still on sale. I am just
getting to grips with this monster. If anyone knows of a 2290 mailing list
please would you post the address here?

Another fine experience of looping which stands out in my memory is jamming
at my home studio with a flamenco guitarist. He was unlooped but I invited
him to play repeating short phrases in the same tempo/key as my Roland
electronic piano, and once he felt totally comfortable with it, to add or
subtract a note and keep on "manually looping". To keep the tempos together
I ran my piano through a short delay - 1 or 2 secs. I found that I stayed
on one (fairly fast 16th-note) phrase for almost the whole of the 30
minutes we played. All I could vary was finger pressure and the sustain
pedal. Limiting myself to these two very simple modes of expression
gradually opened up a whole new feeling in me, a continuing rush of energy
and on-the-edgeness that was extraordinaarily invigorating. As my friend
Jose and I left the studio soon after and headed for a bar I felt amazingly
strong and balanced - the feeling persisted throughout the evening.

To slightly digress, I had a similar experience with a camera! At the time
I was experimenting with taking long exposures (2 or 3 mins) of city lights
at night while moving the camera (handheld, or rotated on a tripod, or even
dangling from my neck as I bicycled) - a kind of "painting on the film" if
you will. One evening on a train from Osaka to Kyoto I stuck my lens up
against the window and took photos of the passing lights, hoping that the
lines thus drawn would be visually interesting. It really raised my
perception of things that I normally ignore - the quality, colour, size and
distance of the various lights. After I while I started slowly rotating the
camera on the axis of the lens so the lines would become spirals and waves.
This completely engrossed me for the entire journey (regardless of the
strange looks I was getting from the other passengers!) and, like the
previous example, I felt amazingly vital and yet peaceful afterwards.
Without getting too corny, I also felt a lot of love for all my tired,
hardworking Japanese fellow travellers as I walked through the crowded
Kyoto station.

It would be interesting to know what other "inner" experiences fellow
loopers have had. The focus and attention required for this technique can
be, I find, very uplifting, clarifying, and feels damn good!

With thanks and best wishes,

Morgan Fisher

>From Morgan Fisher, Tokyo, Japan

Email address: morgan@gol.com
Second email address: Morgan_Fisher@ringo.net


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>        " I am curious about everyone involved in looping and their influences. What
>
> brought you to where you are now? "

Funny, just today, I was telling my bandmate about this list, and said I really had
no idea what people's musical interests were, aside from Torn, Fripp and the few
things mentioned...   so, good question!

For me too, it was probably a record skipping that intrigued me way back when I was
in grade school.  (Probably some Zeppelin or Sabbath thing)  Somewhere during
gradeschool in the mid seventies I discovered John Cage at the local library.  It was
probably the main influence that took me into the realm of experimental music.  I got
into punk int he late seventies, like '79, and learned to search for music that was
far from the mainstream.  In the early eighties, SWANS and Butthole Surfurs had loops
that attracted me.  Shotrly thereafter, I learned about groups like Nurse with Wound,
Current 93, Sleep Chamber, Hafler Trio, Lustmord, Controlled Bleeding, Burroughs &
Gysin's tape cut ups and much, much more.  They all created sounds that went straight
into my mind, unlike most popular music.  (Classical and traditional jazz have always
done the same thing for me.  Well, in different ways.)

About 15 years ago I decided to try to create my own "soundtracks" and experimental
music.  Loops, whether looped in a "looping" device or sequenced, have always
intrigued me.  For me, they can be very mesmerizing, even if they are very harsh like
the works of Merzbow.  Loops play a good sized part for me in creating soundscapes.
My sounds progressed quite a bit since I ran in to my friend and guitarist, Tim, whom
I record with.  He came from a somewhat more trad background, (Rush, King's X, Torn
etc) but knew how to experiment.The primary comments from people who listen to our
recordings is.. "sounds like Fripp & Eno."  Wow!  Is my response to that.  Kind of
funny since Tim knows of and likes Fripp & Crimson, but never really "studied" his
stuff. I have like Crimson,  Eno and the "No Pussyfooting" type collaborations, but
never really thought about trying to sound like them.  Nurse with Wound is my big
influence. (But I don't sound like that either.)  Tim also turned me onto David Torn,
and am forever in debt to that!  (Excellent music David!  Perhaps you and Tim should
play together! Or try teaming up with Steve Stapleton of NWW!)

Right now we (XERST) have been communicating with World Serpent to see if they have
any interest in taking us on.  3rd demo is in their hands, ther eis some level of
interest...so we'll see.  If not, there are still a multitude of experimental labels
out there to contact.  It would just be fun to get the stuff out there, and perhaps
make enough to keep putting out music and buying gear once in a while!  (just an
enjoyable hobby I guess)

So them's the influences, what got me here, and where I'm going!  Thanks for asking,
and I sincerely thank everyone else that has responded.  It is fun to find out where
everyone else is coming from. (and thank you Kim for the list, even if I disagree at
times!)

Jim Sincock

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Hi,

If anyone on the list is looking to upgrade the RAM in their JamMan, I might
have a really cheap source for it.  Last year I finally got around to trying to
upgrade it and found that suppliers wanted outrageous prices.  I found a RAM
dealer that could get it pretty cheap but I had to buy a minimum of 100 chips.
If there were enough folks interested, I'd consider buying the 100 chips and
selling them to you at cost plus shipping.  I think they had told me it was
under $10.00 per chip.   It is a 4 chip upgrade, so it would probably be under
$40.00, plus shipping.  So if there are 24 other folks out there interested in
this, let me know.  I'll check on pricing and availability again tomorrow.

I have no interest in making cash on this, just want to upgrade without getting
ripped off.

Let me know,

Jim Sincock

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At 5:40 PM -0800 1/11/99, Randy Jones wrote:
>Kim,
>
>Doesn't this list have a NO WHINERS policy?
>Jeez...

If it did, I'd have to kick everybody off. ;-)

re: looping catching on: the Looper's Delight web site traffic continues to
grow and set new records for itself. Last week there were over 14,700
page-view hits (meaning not including graphic elements and what-not.)
That's well over 2000 a day! And I don't even have a single porno on the
site!

anybody want to buy advertising space? :-)


kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 09:29:20 1999
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From: David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer@exapps.com>
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Subject: RE: north eastern loopers -- Boston AND NYC
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We've had looping events in Boston.  And will again among the locals here.
I have and can again help get them organized.

However, some have prefered NYC -- which I cannot help organize, and so will
gladly ride someone elses coat-tails for a change.

dk


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	ENAT21213@aol.com [SMTP:ENAT21213@aol.com]
> Sent:	Monday, January 11, 1999 3:44 PM
> To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject:	Re: north eastern loopers
> 
> In a message dated 1/11/99 1:33:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Nemoguitt@aol.com
> writes:
> 
> > what is the status of the eastern loopers get together,
> 
> so far not so good.........
> a couple response so far 
> one almost exterminating the subject off this list (which i kinda agreed
> with
> until this last related post...........more below).
> i reside in s.c. so unfortunately can't help landing a venue, etc.,
> but if you guys up there in the north east can arrange for this thing to
> happen i'll be there (with at least a couple months notice of course). 
> 
> >the last i read was
> >  "lets take it off list".....i think keeping it on list might be a
> learning
> >  experience for all of us to see how this might be done, to spread the
> word
> >  (loop) in other words.....i think what is necessary is keeping the
> "subject"
> >  box in the e-mail consistant so that those who are not interested or
> want 
> > the
> >  topic changed can just use the good ol delete button and not be caught
> up
> in
> >  our rambelings.....
> i agree.......this subject to me seems as relevant as any other looping
> subject that gets discussed on this list. might just learn how something
> like
> this can or cannot work.
> 
> >i am very interested in some form of get together and 
> > would be more than happy to work on this project.........michael
> i'm in 
> just let me know what i might do to further progress
> your thoughts?
> brian
> electric bird noise
> http://members.aol.com/ebnoise/index.html
> 
>   

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How much do you want for the Jamman if you indeed sell it?

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Message-Id: <199901121523.KAA07237@shell.monmouth.com>
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From: "andre" <andre@monmouth.com>
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Subject: Re: CD Compilation
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hello...

> I invite you to participate in Pure Granulated Sound, a
> CD compilation project coordinated by Interfear Recordings
> (myself) and co-produced by all who contribute. All you need
> to join in is one minute of sound, and twenty-five dollars (US).

i;d like to participate in this - one question...is it you (two?) or is it
this guy>>> email: stophim@muscanet.com

thanx. pls let me know what the deadline is, etc - or a site where this
info lives

peace, and thank you

andre'

Homepage http://www.monmouth.com/~andre
Info on my bands JFK's LSD UFO and HIDDEN AGENDA

official PROJECT/OBJECT site  http://www.jswd.net/projectobject
[frank  zappa tribute band i play guitar in]

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From: KRosser414@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:30:23 EST
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In a message dated 99-01-12 03:17:00 EST, you write:

<< If anyone on the list is looking to upgrade the RAM in their JamMan, I
might
 have a really cheap source for it.  Last year I finally got around to trying
to
 upgrade it and found that suppliers wanted outrageous prices.  I found a RAM
 dealer that could get it pretty cheap but I had to buy a minimum of 100
chips.
 If there were enough folks interested, I'd consider buying the 100 chips and
 selling them to you at cost plus shipping.  I think they had told me it was
 under $10.00 per chip.   It is a 4 chip upgrade, so it would probably be
under
 $40.00, plus shipping.  So if there are 24 other folks out there interested
in
 this, let me know.  I'll check on pricing and availability again tomorrow.
 
> I have no interest in making cash on this, just want to upgrade without
getting
 ripped off.
 
I got mine from http://www.visionsoft.com for $9.95 each + shipping.  If they
still have them this might save you a lot of hassle.  They were very easy to
deal with and very fast.

Ken R

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From: "Bill Appleton" <bappleton@hciww.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:47:24 -0600
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I have one of the Hohner steinberger copies (the guitar, I think they make a
bass also).  The tone is entirely different from a real steinberger guitar.
The pickups are cheapo "emg licensed" pickups and the body is made of wood.
All that said, its a pretty good guitar in its own right.  The hardware is
pretty good, the tone is OK (maple neck thru), and the playability is good
for a sub-400 dollar guitar.  I bought mine as a cheap travel guitar and it
has done pretty well in that role.
Pros: Looks like a steinberger, low cost, lightweight, travel-ready,
low-noise pickups, single coils (s/s/h config) work well with ebow,
versatile tone knob and pickup switches, nice bridge and whammy bar, uses
cool double ball end strings.
Cons: Doesn't sound like a steinberger, weak pickups, uses double ball end
strings.

Bill Appleton


-----Original Message-----
From: andre <andre@monmouth.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 5:32 PM
Subject: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...


>Hey
>
>any one have experience withe the HOHNER steinberger copies??? any pros and
>cons?? they seem to be sanctioned by steiny, their logo is on there....
>
>thanx
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 11:34:35 1999
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From: David.Orton@mail.bl.uk (David Orton)
Subject: Re[2]: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...
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     And in addition
     
     The one I have was a pig to set-up - juggling the bridge height Vs. 
     tension for the whammy and the locking mechanism which still allows 
     just a tad too much play. And a neck like a baseball bat...
     
     But...
     
     It coped with an open-air gig half way up a mountain in Norway during 
     a fierce down-pour and does have an intriguing array of its own tones, 
     even if, as Bill says, none are especially Steinbergeresque. So, like 
     most "budget" guitars, some are good, and some are just destined to 
     travel to my parents-in-law for the weekend 4 times a year (OK and 
     Norway once in a lifetime).
     
     David
     <http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/or387751>


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...
Author:  "Bill Appleton" <bappleton@hciww.com> at Internet
Date:    12/01/99 09:47


I have one of the Hohner steinberger copies (the guitar, I think they make a 
bass also).  The tone is entirely different from a real steinberger guitar. 
The pickups are cheapo "emg licensed" pickups and the body is made of wood. 
All that said, its a pretty good guitar in its own right.  The hardware is 
pretty good, the tone is OK (maple neck thru), and the playability is good 
for a sub-400 dollar guitar.  I bought mine as a cheap travel guitar and it 
has done pretty well in that role.
Pros: Looks like a steinberger, low cost, lightweight, travel-ready, 
low-noise pickups, single coils (s/s/h config) work well with ebow, 
versatile tone knob and pickup switches, nice bridge and whammy bar, uses 
cool double ball end strings.
Cons: Doesn't sound like a steinberger, weak pickups, uses double ball end 
strings.
     
Bill Appleton
     
     
-----Original Message-----
From: andre <andre@monmouth.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com> 
Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 5:32 PM
Subject: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...
     
     
>Hey
>
>any one have experience withe the HOHNER steinberger copies??? any pros and 
>cons?? they seem to be sanctioned by steiny, their logo is on there....
>
>thanx
>
     

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 11:50:56 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:39:34 EST
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Dear Mr. Ko,

	I've had some real good luck with the Alesis products as far as their amps
and their speakers go.  Mixed results on their rack unit effects units,
though...  Personally, I have a pair of Point 7's, and love 'em.  I've found
that they are sturdy and for my purposes; using them with and around computer
equipment has made a real difference as far as which studio speaker to try
out.
	The monitor ones are also nearly as good, but I feel that they are not as
warm sounding, as the Point 7's.
	Carvin tend to be a real good choice, though my own personal preference is in
the JBL 310, or 412 models.  These are currently a bit too large for my
apartment, and so I have to be content with the Alesis speakers I am using...
The best advice is to really give the speakers a decent run through with music
that has great engineering, and uses a wide variety of tonal colours and
changes (slow and fast).  This way, you won't have the supreme displeasure
I've had, of actually ripping a speaker cone in half, when the Moog I was
using produced some sounds that were disagreeable to what was currently coming
out of the speakers in question.
	
	The biggest questions to ask yourself before going out are:
	1.)  Where am I going to use these speakers?
	2.)  What type of room, will I be in?
	3.)  What type of music am I going to play through the speakers, and at how
much Wattage, physical abuse, etc., ... ?
	4.)  Are you and where are you going to mount them?

	Hope this helps out, and by all means, feel free to email me outside of the
list should you have any other questions.

	Tchus,

		Lee-ohki.


PS.  Personally, I go around with 3 CD's to test out any prospective speakers.
Those CD's include: Pipe Organ music recorded dry, Bag Pipes (recommend the
Scottish Rogues for this one, off their album, "Hollerin' for Haggis!") and
then Peter Gabriel's Passion album.  
	I have also always kept a spectrum analyzer for the room I was going to be
in.  It has really made the difference as far as what I've had to do on both
live gigs and on studio ones, too.

		L.
	

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 11:50:36 1999
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I don't know.  Are you making an offer?

Best,
Kevin

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From: Michael Peters <mpeters@csi.com>
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:56:21 +0100
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Morgan Fisher wrote,

> I've been lurking long enough - and what an active list this is - amazing!

cool to have you on the list. Miniatures used to be one of my favourite albums... it's still worth listening to!

*	Michael Peters:		mpeters@csi.com
*	escape veloopity:		electronic guitar loop music
*	hop - fractals in motion: 	strange attractors
*	http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mpeters




From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 12:31:19 1999
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From: Legion <legion@voicenet.com>
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> >any one have experience with the HOHNER steinberger copies??? any pros and
> >cons?? they seem to be sanctioned by steiny, their logo is on there....

> I have one of the Hohner steinberger copies (the guitar, I think they make a
> bass also).  The tone is entirely different from a real steinberger guitar.

I wouldn't assume the name steinberger on an instrument is an
endorsement by the company. More likely the tuner was simply licensed so
Steinberger could make some more cash. 

There are a couple companies making "steinberger" copies. I have an
Arbor "steinberger" Bass which I Love but it's hardly the real thing.
Mine has the full licensed tuner system (Says so right on the front :))
and the Hohners I've seen are basically the same thing (tuner is 100%
steinberger but that's where the similarity ends)

Steinberger's big claim to fame is that they are all graphite necks.
Neither the Arbors or Hohners have grapite anything. Mine is all wood
and uses two "arbor" dual pickups, one Volume, one tone, and a
triposition switch. Personally I think it sounds great (almost like a
fretless) and believe me I know what a cheesey copy it is in reality but
the fact remains it's easy to play (24 frets!) sounds great and has been
rock solid (one cross country flight as carry on baggage in it's gig bag
and no problems at all.

The big pro is they go for aorund $250 or so. You are *not* getting a
steinberger in sound or craft but you might be getting a nice and *very*
portable solid bass. I have too many basses and guitars as it is and
never gave a damn about steinbergers or their physical appearance. When
I played this cheese copy by arbor and saw the price tag I totally
changed my mind and I'm very glad I did.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
     HELP WANTED PRODUCTIONS - Http://www.voicenet.com/~legion
"Bringing you the best in Organic Electronic music since we started..."
     
Home of the Unusual Instrument and Recording Gallery with pictures and
info of Tube recorders, Omnichords, weird guitars, Casios, and more.

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       Listers,
1/12
       This morning I received a very nice letter from Michael Ayers at Gibson
       stating the following, "Gibson does and will continue to distribute the
       Echoplex REGARDLESS of what happens to Oberhaeim."(capitals are
       mine) Not to worry, the EDP is safe.
                                             Chris Olden
        
       


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 13:05:44 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:48:51 -0700
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Subject: Looping Alert!
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I will be doing a loop show at Penny Lane tomorrow night (Jan 13th).  I am
hoping that Eric Deutsch of Fat Mama will be joining me.


Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


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hi,
try NAD amplifiers
it's a very difficult thing with amps and speakers. you just have to try
what fits together. we use nad-amplifiers together with some old
alesis-monitors (they really are old and huge, but sound just fantastic,
don't ask my anything about them...) for near-field monitoring we use some
cheap walkman speakers (as reference-speakers - when you have a good mix,
it even sounds good on those little boxes) 
as it was discussed on the list, you just have to try - and, don't forget -
trust your ears and not the sales-men.

At 19:49 11.01.99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all.
>
>I've been lurking for a bit here and I am a new comer to this whole looping
>thang.  I am just starting to look for items to create a small person studio
>for myself and would like some purchacing advice from anyone out there.
>
>I've read through the studio monitor string last week (the pros and cons of
>the Yamahas) but was wondering if anyone had any experience with the Alesis
>Monitor Ones.  They seem to be priced to compete with the Yamahas.  I too
>have friends who either swear by the yamahas or dispise them (the consensus
>I got was about the same as the opinions given here and Looper's Delight).
>Are the Alesis any better/worse/the same?
>
>I was also wondering what a good reference amp might be.  Is the Alesis one
>OK?  Hafler?  Carvin?
>
>Thanks a bunch.
>
>Jim Ko
>
>
>
>
>

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Jonathan El-Bizri wrote:

> ...I'm thinking about selling my Jamman, if anyone is interested. I need a
> longer looper with more features, like an Echoplex, though I have heard some
> critical comments on this list about the echoplex's audio quality...

my perception is that the 'plex's audio quality is just fine, assuming input
levels are appropriate to source material- aside from the odd pair of golden
ears among us (for whom every piece of equipment falls this side of
perfection), i would wager there's a consensus to that effect (i'm actually
amazed kim hasn't picked up this thread ;^)

lance g.

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Jamie Lack wrote:

> My earliest recollection of looping would be when I was only a few years
> old, and I discovered how to work my parents record player.
> Sometimes the record would skip on an interesting part of the record and
> form an almost seamless loop.
> Sometimes I would manually shift the needle to acheive this effect.

a child prodigy of looping! hahaha!

lance g.

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It seems like it all hit at once.

Early eighties, after about six years of rock guitar stuff:  Eno - Another
Green World (Fripp on St. Elmo's Fire, which is still my absolute favorite
guitar solo), started checking out Fripp, found King Crimson, Belew, Levin,
Gabriel, Sylvian, etc.  I decided that I wanted to do that, bought a Juno 2
keyboard, borrowed a friend's Juno 106 keyboard, Roland sequencer, and 4
track, and with my bass, started doing that (not very well, but the tapes
are still satisfying).  Apartment got broken into, everything stolen, except
(inexplicably) a custom-made guitar.  Recouped with guitar effects, and have
been doing it that way every since.  

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From: Michael Peters <mpeters@csi.com>
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> Last week there were over 14,700 page-view hits (meaning not
> including graphic elements and what-not.) That's well over 2000
> a day! And I don't even have a single porno on the site!

talking about hits, I'd be interested to know what the interest is for our 
Looper's Delight CDs. Matt? Are you listening? Are you selling this thing 
at all? Also, I'm a little bit disappointed that for the first LD CD, there 
is still no news about availability. I'd really appreciate at least a 
statement of intent.

*	Michael Peters:		mpeters@csi.com
*	escape veloopity:		electronic guitar loop music
*	hop - fractals in motion: 	strange attractors
*	http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mpeters




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"EH-16 user suffers mindrot, studies jazz, now back for more!"

- late 70's, saw demo of two 4-track decks looped in San Francisco 
  at an avant garde performance.

- Fripp solo/Revox tour in Student Union at U.C. Berkeley
  Fripp/Eno recordings... minimalist compositions by Glass/Reich

- met Mike Matthews at Winter NAMM 82, bought EH-16 
  (ElectroHarmonix "Fripp-in-a-box" delay)

- early 80's performed with two Teac 4-tracks to loop all the mics,
  plus EH-16 on guitar or synth. What a pile of noise :)

- 1982-1990 thousands of hours alone looping, looping, looping...
  very cosmic, very sublime, and finally... very boring!
  learned very little about music during this period.
  Not much theory, not much repetoire. 

  It was great fun, but it was almost like an educational blackout.
  I called myself an 'electronic guitarist', but I couldn't even
  play 'Autumn Leaves'. I never heard of melodic minor harmony!

- 1993 sold the EH-16 as a collectors item. Started working on 
  really learning the guitar, learning some jazz theory, learning 
  some tunes, including the melody (never bothered before).

- 1997 - bought a JamMan used, upgraded memory. I have used it 90%
  as a practice tool to work on improv over jazz changes.

- Listening to old tapes from 10-15 years ago, wow, pretty   
  interesting! So much of it was gear-based, those certain synths, 
  the EH-16, the weird little ethnic instruments. How did we make
  those sounds???  Start to use the JamMan for weird stuff...
  
So now, armed with much improved musical knowledge and skills,
I'm making some cosmic music again. I realize in retrospect
that looping was so seductively fun, I really lost my bearings as
a learner. I wish I hadn't ignored my 'conventional studies' for
so much time. My hours of looping served me not at all, when it was
time to take a solo on 'Round Midnight in a band situation.
So its great to be back doing loops, but what I'm looping is MUCH
more interesting now.

Bob
(Seattle)

 





  







______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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At 06:19 PM 1/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>> Last week there were over 14,700 page-view hits (meaning not
>> including graphic elements and what-not.) That's well over 2000
>> a day! And I don't even have a single porno on the site!
>
>talking about hits, I'd be interested to know what the interest is for our 
>Looper's Delight CDs. Matt? Are you listening? Are you selling this thing 
>at all? Also, I'm a little bit disappointed that for the first LD CD, there 
>is still no news about availability. I'd really appreciate at least a 
>statement of intent.

The issue with the first CD is there needs to be somebody handling
duplication. Matt has generously agreed to handle taking orders, shipping,
credit card processing, etc, through Marathon Records but he doesn't have
time to deal with logistics of manufacturing the CD's themselves, and Ray
Peck doesn't have time (obviously :-) to do that either. I've been intending
to attempt organizing the people on the vol 1 cd to figure out who has
CD-R's and would be willing to burn batches of disks (or deal with a cd
pressing plant) but I haven't had time either...:-(   Also, Ray said he was
doing another version of the master to include a fixed track somebody
submitted, so who knows where that is....

So Michael, if you or somebody else on the cd that's reading would like to
take on organizing this, please do. Probably it's best to start with CD-R
instead of pressing a 1000, and see how it goes from there. I would say you
need to get in contact with the others on the CD, find out who has a cd-r
and how many they are each willing to press, get the master to these people,
get the printed inserts from Ray to some convenient location where the can
be inserted in the jewel case, get all cds to that same spot, and get the
final box of cd's dropped off at Matt's doorstep. I'm hoping that somebody
can take this on, cause I'd really love to see vol. 1 come out!

kim
_________________________________________________________
Kim Flint, MTS                     kflint@chromatic.com
ATI Research 	                   408-752-9284
http://www.chromatic.com

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From: "Tim Walker" <tawalker@dircon.co.uk>
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Hi folks,

The question of "How did you get into looping?" got me thinking back
into my own musical development, and for a few moments I couldn't
remember how I came across the style. But it slowly came back to me, so
here's my penn'orth:

The first looping I heard was at the 1991 Greenbelt Festival in central
England, from two separate artists. During Steeleye Span's set,
violinist Peter Knight played a canon by Telemann, using a delay unit
to play the second violin part; soon afterwards, I witnessed a truly
astounding set by Phil Keaggy, playing a James Olson acoustic guitar
through a JamMan (I think - maybe it was another delay?). Keaggy is a
particularly fine player, and frequently uses a JamMan in live
performance and recording to this day; I think it was his show that
first got me thinking about loops in music.

Around 1994 I was discovering Eno's back catalogue with considerable
enthusiasm, mostly his 70s output ("Another Green World", "Before And
After Science", etc.). I don't remember exactly how, but I came across
"[No Pussyfooting]" about that time, and despite having heard it was a
challenging listen (to put it mildly), decided to give it a spin.
"Mmm... now this I like!" I've always had a soft spot for minimalist
drones, and "Heavenly Music Corporation" got me thinking that maybe,
just maybe, I could play this sort of thing. Easier said than done with
a Boss DD2 delay (800ms max) and no EBow or volume pedal, but... well,
I'll get round to that.

I made my first "looping" recording, "The Echoing Green", in early '95,
creating the main rhythm of the piece by cranking the time and feedback
settings on the DD2 up to max, and layering guitar phrases through it.
Someone who heard it said it reminded them of the Durutti Column, which
led to me discovering Vini Reilly's work not long afterwards (I'd never
heard of him before). Sometime in the intervening year or two I also
found Ed Alleyne-Johnson's two albums of looped electric violin,
"Purple Electric Violin Concerto" and "Ultraviolet", which convinced me
even further that looping was an approach I could make use of. These
CDs, and particularly the latter, are worth acquiring if you can find
them, though I can't speak for availability outside the UK. To me, Ed
epitomises what electric violin **should** sound like - if there was
any justice in the world, it wouldn't be Vanessa-Mae who sells the most
violin CDs...

I spent October 1997 in Berlin, working at a publishing house there,
and whilst there met a musician busking in the Breitscheidplatz (the
central square, just over from the Zoo Station). His name escapes me
(an Auatralian - Michael someone?), but he was playing a guitar synth
and didgeridoo through a JamMan, and it sounded glorious, the way he
was layering all these sounds and soloing over the top. I'd have to say
it was this guy who reawakened my latent interest in looping, and on my
return to the UK I started looking for a JamMan or similar unit. It was
about this time I discovered Looper's Delight, most probably via a
posting to Elephant Talk, and things just grew from there!

Finally, early last year, I learned that the Boomerang was being
stocked by my fave guitar store, Chandler in Richmond, and as I'd come
into some spare cash I acquired one. The rest, as they say, is history
- I've recorded one loop guitar "virtual album" for my Web site, and
have another almost ready for MP3.com as I write.

Looping has totally turned my playing style around; it's given me a
musical direction, as well as showing me all the areas of my guitar
playing I really need to improve! It's been a long and winding road
(sorry) to this point, but I'm very grateful to have found both this
musical style, and this community of musicians who employ it.

Thank you for sticking with me thus far, and good night from Staines,
England...

Best wishes,
Tim.

************************************************************
  +--------------+  Tim Walker
  { o          o }  Staines, Middlesex, UK
  {      []      }  tawalker@dircon.co.uk
  { \__________/ }  http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~tawalker/
  +--------------+
"You can't always wait for a composer to write the music you
want to play."                                (Derek Bailey)
************************************************************


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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:17:03 -0500
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hey all

thanx so much for the feedback, all of you... times like this the net, and
esp. this group, really shine.. i have gotten a ton of good pros and cons
to weigh my decision with...!

peace and loops

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Title sez it. Korg X119 Guitar synth in good shape for sale or on
esoteric trade.

Cosmetically it's about an 8-8.5 (minor scratches) functionally very
good with one exception;  the slider only works one way (you can mute
the preset side). The synth side can be normally muted with the buttons
and other settings so this was never a big deal to me and in fact I
never knew it wasn't supposed to be like this until I played someone
else's)

Unit is 100% original and complete with all knobs and such and comes
with the stand adapter thingie which attaches to the bottom of the unit
and lets you mount it on a board or mic stand. 

This is one *very* cool analog box and an incredible sound mangler form
the Korg MS series dynasty. Basically it's a pitch to voltage oriented
synthbox
with some "preset" sounds on one side and a synth section on the other
that can be set up as a tracking VCO or external processor. Autowah,
envelope follower stuff, waveform distortion and more are available (all
analoge of course). It has the MS20 Lowpass filter (w/cutoff knob). You
can also detune the presets from the VCO to make pseudo stringz and
chords and such
(very Adrian Belewish). Presets (and I use the term loosely) are Tuba,
Electric Guitar, Violin, horn, Distorted Guitar (Nice!), and flute. 

Various settings for input to adapt tracking from guitar to synth to
thermin or whatever. protamento, and tune knobs. Of course this is all
relative as all these monsters glitch like crazy unless you set them up
*exactly* right. Running a drumloop into it will make the most wonderous
mistracking and rhythmic shrieks you've ever heard. It's made to be
twisted. 

CV/Gates in and out as well as VCF and FM 1/4" in. Use it as a third VCO
for an MS20 (or 2nd VCO for a MS10) and it's tracks perfectly via the
CV/gate in.

I'm only selling this monster because I finally got my dream guitar
synth setup and don't use this that much anymore. 


Asking $350 OBO. 

Buyer pays shipping on prepay (many references available). 
Price is pretty fair from recent postings and way below dealer prices 
but I'll listen to trades and/or any ideas you have.

For more infomation you can see a pic and specs at:

http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~kbrunner/effects/x-911.htm
 
and pic of it mounted is here:
http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~kbrunner/effects/effects.htm

email Legion@voicenet.com

Thanks!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
     HELP WANTED PRODUCTIONS - Http://www.voicenet.com/~legion
"Bringing you the best in Organic Electronic music since we started..."
     
Home of the Unusual Instrument and Recording Gallery with pictures and
info of Tube recorders, Omnichords, weird guitars, Casios, and more.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 20:55:02 1999
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Thanks Ken,  that might be the way to!

Best,

Jim

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Subject:  Re: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...
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have had a hohner g2 guitar for years...twin humbucker...emg- select-
pickups..."real" emg pick-ups are low impedence and require active
circuitry..the select line are "regular" high impedence pickups like on
most guitars..they dont have personality like many custom pickups but they
do have a good clean output and are very quiet ie hum free...the guitar is
made of wood as opposed to graphite(which i actually prefer)...the tremelo
is what is licensed from steinberger and it is their most basic..it is not
a trans-trem!..unfortunately this is its weakest link...at first (after
various tweaks for a good setup) it performed admirably..the bar allowed
holdworth-esque legato and i was able to tune the guitar by barring a chord
and shaking the vibrato arm..not bad...eventually though the machined parts
started to wear and things started to go wrong..when i posted about where i
could get replacement parts, i was told by a number of people that the
tremelo had a history of problems(the posts holding the unit to the body
would strip)...in addition the nut adjusting tension has also stripped...i
could not get a current address for  hohner so i contacted steinberger via
new owner -gibson..(gibson released a spirit line which is identical to the
hohner)..i was told via e-mail that steinberger had nothing to do with
hohner..when i pressed the issue that the hohners were identical to the
gibson spirit line and parts should be interchangeable they wrote that i
should contact them with parts info..which admittedly i havent done...last
i heard steinberger  via gibson was no more...
-so the moral of the story...great knock around guitar capable of some real
flexibility but beware those machined parts cause they will go and parts
will be hard to replace
cheers
if anyone knows different, please let me know

                                all my mistakes were once acts of genius
                                                      neato@pipeline.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 21:53:12 1999
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From: Fmplautus@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:44:49 EST
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Neato writes...

"i heard steinberger  via gibson was no more...
-so the moral of the story...great knock around guitar capable of some real
flexibility but beware those machined parts cause they will go and parts
will be hard to replace
cheers
if anyone knows different, please let me know"

I don't know what the status of Steinberger is at Gibson right now, but you
might want to give Lorenzo at Klein Electric Guitars a buzz...(he has a
website)...  See if he can set you up with a Steinberger trem.  He's personaly
addressed the issue of Steinberger quality control...and has no doubt seen
more worn Steinberger trems then most humans.  He replaced my trem unit free
of charge after I wore it out with about five years of use and abuse.  

Incidentally, I think one point should be made...when working properly, even
the plain vanilla Steinberger trem and tuning system is a fantastic invention.

-Kevin

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 22:12:29 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:26:37 +0200
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: Stockhuasen Interview
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Hey Loopers,

I just finished reading this interview with Karl Heinz himself. He was
interviewed by Iara Lee for the film Modulations which deals with
electronic music. Stockhausen has been twiddling knobs and doing wild
things with the location of performers and multiple loudspeakers since the
50's. It's a good read.

http://www.furious.com/perfect/stockhauseninterview.html


Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

Shockwave audio featuring our newest release Primary Colors:Blue

                            www.fingerpaint.net  


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 22:32:57 1999
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From: M3chakucha@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:24:58 EST
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Hey all, 

If you are hurting for Steinberger parts or instruments, check out:
www.edromanguitars.com

He has been super helpful in the past.  

As far as Gibson goes with Steinberger, I haven't heard anything on that one,
but it would be a shame for Steinberger to go the way that Kramer has gone for
years and years and years to go...

Hope this helps out some.

Tchus,

	Lee-ohki.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 22:50:59 1999
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Subject: Re: the CDs
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Why not just put it on an ftp site and create temporary accounts for buyers
so they 
can get on there and download it to burn their own? Once they've logged on
for said
amount of time to acquire it, cancel the account.

As far as piracy goes, you could set it up so that a user only has one day
to login
and get the goods. And if they need more time, just change the user's name and 
password each day, so they can't filter it out. Probably could be done by a 
program...

At 12:19 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote:
>At 06:19 PM 1/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>> Last week there were over 14,700 page-view hits (meaning not
>>> including graphic elements and what-not.) That's well over 2000
>>> a day! And I don't even have a single porno on the site!
>>
>>talking about hits, I'd be interested to know what the interest is for our 
>>Looper's Delight CDs. Matt? Are you listening? Are you selling this thing 
>>at all? Also, I'm a little bit disappointed that for the first LD CD, there 
>>is still no news about availability. I'd really appreciate at least a 
>>statement of intent.
>
>The issue with the first CD is there needs to be somebody handling
>duplication. Matt has generously agreed to handle taking orders, shipping,
>credit card processing, etc, through Marathon Records but he doesn't have
>time to deal with logistics of manufacturing the CD's themselves, and Ray
>Peck doesn't have time (obviously :-) to do that either. I've been intending
>to attempt organizing the people on the vol 1 cd to figure out who has
>CD-R's and would be willing to burn batches of disks (or deal with a cd
>pressing plant) but I haven't had time either...:-(   Also, Ray said he was
>doing another version of the master to include a fixed track somebody
>submitted, so who knows where that is....
>
>So Michael, if you or somebody else on the cd that's reading would like to
>take on organizing this, please do. Probably it's best to start with CD-R
>instead of pressing a 1000, and see how it goes from there. I would say you
>need to get in contact with the others on the CD, find out who has a cd-r
>and how many they are each willing to press, get the master to these people,
>get the printed inserts from Ray to some convenient location where the can
>be inserted in the jewel case, get all cds to that same spot, and get the
>final box of cd's dropped off at Matt's doorstep. I'm hoping that somebody
>can take this on, cause I'd really love to see vol. 1 come out!
>
>kim
>_________________________________________________________
>Kim Flint, MTS                     kflint@chromatic.com
>ATI Research 	                   408-752-9284
>http://www.chromatic.com
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 23:01:25 1999
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From: Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: Hohner/Steiny Copy question...
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At 10:24 PM 1/12/99 EST, you wrote:

>As far as Gibson goes with Steinberger, I haven't heard anything on that one,
>but it would be a shame for Steinberger to go the way that Kramer has gone for
>years and years and years to go...
>

Gibson said they are planning to reopen steinberger later this year. I
beleive they are moving it to their new Memphis facility when that opens.

kim
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint, MTS		       408-752-9284
ATI Research	       kflint@chromatic.com

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From: Kriist@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:00:40 EST
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In a message dated 1/13/99 3:34:32 AM !!!First Boot!!!, M3chakucha@aol.com
writes:

> As far as Gibson goes with Steinberger, I haven't heard anything on that
one,
>  but it would be a shame for Steinberger to go the way that Kramer has gone 
> for
>  years and years and years to go...
>  
I own a steinberger(gibson)gm-pro
it came with little imperfections from the factory
since i had to wait 2 months in the first place to get it and then end up
getting the wrong guitar i didnt want to mail it away
the store i bought it from couldnt even get in touch with them!!
steinberger(gibson)is no more at least for now

rodrigo

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 12 23:43:18 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:34:34 -0800
Subject: Re: the CDs
From: "Matt and Kristy McCabe" <mkmccabe@earthlink.net>
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>talking about hits, I'd be interested to know what the interest is for our 
>Looper's Delight CDs. Matt? Are you listening? Are you selling this thing 
>at all? Also, I'm a little bit disappointed that for the first LD CD, there 
>is still no news about availability. I'd really appreciate at least a 
>statement of intent.

Yeah...I'm listening...sometimes! :-) Sales have been steady but not
staggering.  The biggest problem has been slow delievery times thanks to the
holidays and the US Postal Service....up to a month in some cases!!

Matt

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 13 01:04:19 1999
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From: Dpcoffin@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:54:38 EST
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Briefly...when I learned to play a few John Fahey-ish Travis-picking licks in
the hazy daze of '67, I was immediately struck by the hypnotic qualities of an
endlessly rolling fingerpicking figure; there being no discernable difference
between "practicing" and "playing" in those days, I spent a lot of time
listening to repetitous patterns. Wasn't much of a leap to notice that a chord
sequence would sound better if it could be arranged to knit back seamlessly
into its starting pattern...in fact, that seemed to be one of the keys to the
Fahey message--along with his astounding moodiness. From then on, repeating
(or nearly, or partially, repeating) cycles have been the first things I tend
to notice in all kinds of music, and gear that lends itself to repeats
(sequencers, drum machines, tape loops, etc. has always perked my
interest...and such stuff is incredibly prevelant! I'm actually surprised to
read that so many folks here hadn't (apparently) been similarly struck with
the loopy-ness of almost all music until encountering an avowed "Looper." Of
course, maybe I'm structurally challenged and can't twig anything more complex
than "Oh, yes, here's that theme/beat again...!"
dpc

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 13 01:04:43 1999
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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199901130600.WAA10817@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Enough Already!! . . . "good" avant-garde music
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:00:57 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <2148EC143F29D1118BE000805FC13CD0772069@migarexch01.maritz.com> from "Liebig, Steuart A." at Jan 11, 99 01:39:31 pm
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> > Collins [SMTP:collinsclan@sprintmail.com]
> > 
> > 
> > You've got that one right. The only parts of the US that you can get good
> > avant-garde music is NYC. 
> > 
> 	** i would have to say that this is absolutely untrue. having been
> at some really great "avant-garde" musical experiences in both los angeles
> and san francisco - - as well as great bands from places like new mexico - -
> i have to take exception to this comment.

Jeff, please don't take this as "piling on", but I have to agree with
Stu Leibig.  

I don't mean to toot San Diego's horn too much and in fact admit that
finding good avant-garde here takes a bit of work.  But's its not that hard
here, what with UCSD's music department and the folks associated with it.

I get a decent dose of avant-garde at a place called Spruce Street Forum.
Just missed Stu's quartet there but did manage to see KRosser play with
Brad Dutz as well as other quality improv artists.  Yes, Bonnie the director
relies on donations to pay folks from NYC to come down here, but she also
has performers from the West Coast, Canada, and, yes, even San Diego
play at the Forum.

Actually, I think it may be harder to find live drum-and-bass music here
than good avant-garde... :)

Paolo

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To: "Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: What got ya to where you are...
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Hmmm, too many years of classical piano lessons. Discovering pot, prog
rock, and synthesizers in Jr High, without any of which I would not have
survived. My friend Bernie Edl's 4-trak Norelco reel-to-reel (this was in
the late '70's, pre-4-trak), learning to splice, loop and reverse tape.
Building a few PAIA kits. College: discovered punk rock and bass guitar
while ostensibly learning to program. Read too much Cage and Eno at a too
impressionable age. Bought my first analog delay in 1980, still have it.
See an Ornette Coleman gig that blows my mind, but takes several years to
come to terms w/it. Drop out of college to tour with a new wavey haircut
band, almost get signed, band self-destructs. More bands, more
self-destruction. Clerk at a used record store, buy too many records.
Return to college late-80's, study jazz composition w/ Rob Blakeslee, jazz
piano w/Steve Christofferson. Help build an electronic music studio at
school, later dismantled. Start a recording studio with a partner,
recording lots of punk bands on the cheap. Buy a mac, finally find a use
for all the programming shit when I pick up Max. Acquire several digital
delays along the way, still have most of 'em. More bands, less success. See
Pro-Tools in action, immediate light-bulb in head-I gotta have that!
Intense free improv sessions, swear off of composition "permanently". Start
Minus w/Henry Franzoni/Mark France. Buy a better mac, and Deck. Assemble
Minus CD in Deck. Get current job developing educational multimedia, buy
more gear. Early JamMan adoptee. Gig around NW doing free-improv. Get bored
w/free improv after a few years, return to composing. Slowly work on 2nd
Minus CD. Acquire a boomerang. Return to building my own electronics,
slowly assemble modular synth and some effects. Spend too much time on the
Internet. Write message to hip maillist explaining what got me where I am,
leaving out too many important experiences, gigs, records, movies, books,
yadda, yadda...

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 13 03:20:20 1999
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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199901130811.AAA11711@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: What got ya to where you are...
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:11:40 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <v01510106b2c1f2a345a8@[198.68.22.155]> from "Dave Trenkel" at Jan 12, 99 11:24:33 pm
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Wow, Dave, your story sounds like the roadmap of my future.

I'm a software engineer who tries to make time for my bass.  Once
I achieve my financial goals of paying off debts and saving up funds,
I intend to go back to college to study composition, music technology,
jazz studies, and even ethnic musics if possible.  

I too would like to explore the paradox of the "composer who improvises"
using both bass and electronics.  Hopefully I too will find my own "voice".

Thanks for the post,
Paolo

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 13 08:04:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:58:10 +0100
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: nicolas monguzzi <nicomonguzzi@vtx.ch>
Subject: Re: the CDs
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Hi, i've ordered mine and received Mastercard invoice on 16 december, but i
haven't got any cd....
still waiting...

ciao, nic

>Yeah...I'm listening...sometimes! :-) Sales have been steady but not
>staggering.  The biggest problem has been slow delievery times thanks to the
>holidays and the US Postal Service....up to a month in some cases!!
>
>Matt



	 nicolas monguzzi
	 music & graphic design
	 59 rue du maupas
	1004 lausanne
	switzerland
	+41 21 646 5681 voice + fax
	mailto:nicomonguzzi@vtx.ch


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 13 08:13:55 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:07:28 +0100
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No post since the 25th of december. Is it
normal??


Olivier Malhomme

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From: "andre" <andre@monmouth.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Enough Already!! . . . "good" avant-garde music
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:48:19 -0500
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> Jeff, please don't take this as "piling on", but I have to agree with
> Stu Leibig.  
> 
> I don't mean to toot San Diego's horn too much and in fact admit that
> finding good avant-garde here takes a bit of work.  But's its not that
hard
> here, what with UCSD's music department and the folks associated with it.


speaking of which.... Mike Keneally, great guitarist/keyboardist.. will be
doing an 'avant-garde' CD and performance with a small group incl. Henry
Kaiser... sometime soon in Berkeley CA.. he's also playing keys in a Steely
Dan cover band ...check his site for info at http://www.moosenet.com
(you'll find his link right there)

avant garde lives!!!!

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 13 13:44:48 1999
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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
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Subject: Re: What got ya to where you are...
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:31:41 -0800 (PST)
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Sorry folks, I meant to email DT (Trenkle, that is) privately
but forgot to change the To: header.

Paolo

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Subject: Re: Enough Already!! . . . "good" avant-garde music
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> speaking of which.... Mike Keneally, great guitarist/keyboardist.. will be
> doing an 'avant-garde' CD and performance with a small group incl. Henry

As I understand it, the SF/Oakland/Berkeley/etc/ Bay area in CA has a 
very healthy avante-garde scene.  That's where Kaiser lives and plays...

> Kaiser... sometime soon in Berkeley CA.. he's also playing keys in a Steely
> Dan cover band ...check his site for info at http://www.moosenet.com

The Steely Damned is a cover band made up of SD musicians.  They pride
themselves in reproducing the songs "just like the record" but give
lead guitarist Hank Easton plenty of free reign to improvise his own
solos.  When I saw them play, Easton mostly used a 335 so he got that
Larry Carlton tone that fit very well with the band.  Keneally did most
of the arranging for the horns and backup vocals.

I'd like to see Mike sit in with the Steely Damned, but avante-guitarist
GE Stinson and drummer Alex Cline are scheduled for an improv gig at
Spruce Street Forum that same night.

Paolo

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Subject: Re: Enough Already!! . . . "good" avant-garde music
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:09:38 -0500
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>> > You've got that one right. The only parts of the US that you can get
good
>> > avant-garde music is NYC.
>> >


Please allow me to rephrase that, i think i meant that it is one of the
biggest known places for avant-garde music. John Zorn, E#, David Torn, John
Cage, David Tudor, Morton Feldman, Ornette Coleman, those are a bunch of
those who we speak of when talking about weird musics. So i guided my gaze
to NY when i thought of that. I do know that SF is pretty good also. But
normally when people think of avant-guarde music (the other people that
really arent part of it) they generally think of NYC.

I hope that can clear up a bit of our discussion.
Thank you all for your time.
Jeff Collins

A Strange View of Music
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stadium/1429/STRANGETONES.html

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 13 16:25:55 1999
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From: KRosser414@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:11:17 EST
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Below is an exact cut-and-paste copy of an e-mail I sent to the list a few
days ago - please note that the lines beginning with << or > were ones cut
from another e-mail that I was replying to:

-------------------------------------------

<< If anyone on the list is looking to upgrade the RAM in their JamMan, I
might
 have a really cheap source for it.  Last year I finally got around to trying
to
 upgrade it and found that suppliers wanted outrageous prices.  I found a RAM
 dealer that could get it pretty cheap but I had to buy a minimum of 100
chips.
 If there were enough folks interested, I'd consider buying the 100 chips and
 selling them to you at cost plus shipping.  I think they had told me it was
 under $10.00 per chip.   It is a 4 chip upgrade, so it would probably be
under
 $40.00, plus shipping.  So if there are 24 other folks out there interested
in
 this, let me know.  I'll check on pricing and availability again tomorrow.
 
> I have no interest in making cash on this, just want to upgrade without
getting
 ripped off.
 
I got mine from http://www.visionsoft.com for $9.95 each + shipping.  If they
still have them this might save you a lot of hassle.  They were very easy to
deal with and very fast.

Ken R

----------------------------

I have been contacted by six people now off-list that they wanted to join me
on the goal of buying 100 - please note, this was someone else, not me - I
recommend just calling Vision Soft and buying them for $9.95 apiece youself.
You don't need a lot of people, they'll sell you a set of four for your own
self alone for just under $40 plus shipping.  Really - I got mine from them
and they were very nice and very fast.  Just tell them you're looking for the
JamMan chips, they know exactly what you need.  Here, I copied this directly
from their web page:

>Name: VisionSoft 
>Address: P.O. Box 4398, Carmel, CA 93921 U.S.A. 
>Phone Number: (408)626-2633 
>Fax: (408)625-6588 
>Email: sales@visionsoft.com 
>Homepage: http://www.visionsoft.com 
>Methods of Payment: VISA, Master Card, Discover, COD, Cash, Check or Money
>Order 
>Shipping Carriers: Airborne Express, Federal Express, UPS & US Postal Service

I have no stake in them doing any more business, other than they were very
cool and helpful and I always like to see those sorts of folks do well...

Since so many misunderstood me, I'll take the rap here and apologize for the
confusion, but please note, if you're looking to join the "100 chip" purchase
group, I'm not the guy to contact.

Ken R

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From: KRosser414@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:51:58 EST
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>Jeff, please don't take this as "piling on", but I have to agree with
>Stu Leibig.  

>I don't mean to toot San Diego's horn too much and in fact admit that
>finding good avant-garde here takes a bit of work.  But's its not that hard
>here, what with UCSD's music department and the folks associated with it.

>I get a decent dose of avant-garde at a place called Spruce Street Forum.
>Just missed Stu's quartet there but did manage to see KRosser play with
>Brad Dutz as well as other quality improv artists.  Yes, Bonnie the director
>relies on donations to pay folks from NYC to come down here, but she also
>has performers from the West Coast, Canada, and, yes, even San Diego
>play at the Forum.

Well, I don't want to pile on the tooting of our own horns, but I'll be back
at Spruce Street on Feb 20 with a group led by SF Bay Area tubist Tom Heasley
and featuring myself on guitars & loops and Bobby Bradford on cornet.

Ken R

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From: "Liebig, Steuart A." <LiebigSA@Maritz.com>
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Subject: RE: Enough Already!! . . . "good" avant-garde music
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:29:56 -0600
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> I'd like to see Mike sit in with the Steely Damned, but avante-guitarist
> GE Stinson and drummer Alex Cline are scheduled for an improv gig at
> Spruce Street Forum that same night.
> 
	** well, the funny thing is that i'm listening to a pre-release copy
of alex's new cd . . . all i can say is thatalex is a major mofo on the
tubs, catch him if you can. looping content: ge uses a modified pcm42 for
loopage. i haven't heard their duo yet, but it promises to be quite good. 

	for those who care about such things, alex is nels' twin bro . . .
poor mom and dad!

	stig


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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:21:16 -0800 (PST)
From: robert kolosowski <kolosoro@yahoo.com>
Subject: sound cards
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After years of faithfull service my tape machines are not .....
So what sound cards & software are the go ?
for a pentium box on NT 4.0. (although I could go to '95/98).



==

Robert Kolosowski
Kolosoro@Yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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-----Original Message-----
From: robert kolosowski <kolosoro@yahoo.com>


>After years of faithfull service my tape machines are not .....
>So what sound cards & software are the go ?
>for a pentium box on NT 4.0. (although I could go to '95/98).


'Evening all,
The software I use, and can recommend, are SAWse and Soundforge.
The SAW (which is hidden away in Master Tracks Pro Audio) is useful for
looping wave files. I am using the 4-track version at the moment. There is a
24-track version available but you need a minimum 64 MB RAM to use it. (I'm
waiting to upgrade). I use the Soundforge for editing and mastering.
I also have Wavelab, which was recommended to me but I haven't got to grips
with it yet.
Pete

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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:53:38 -0700
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> Dear Wanters of JamMan Ram,

As Ken pointed out perhaps the link below for Visionsoft would be much easier
than me trying to be a "store" and buying 100 chips.  The price is about the
same, so please check them out, I'm going to.  The only reason I posted to see if
there was any interest was because I kept getting prices like $100 for 4 chips.
If Visionsoft has 'em for $40, lets get 'em there.  feel free to contact me, not
Ken with questions.

Thanks,

Jim Sincock
lobo27@boulder.quik.com

>
>
> >Name: VisionSoft
> >Address: P.O. Box 4398, Carmel, CA 93921 U.S.A.
> >Phone Number: (408)626-2633
> >Fax: (408)625-6588
> >Email: sales@visionsoft.com
> >Homepage: http://www.visionsoft.com
> >Methods of Payment: VISA, Master Card, Discover, COD, Cash, Check or Money
> >Order
> >Shipping Carriers: Airborne Express, Federal Express, UPS & US Postal Service
>
> I have no stake in them doing any more business, other than they were very
> cool and helpful and I always like to see those sorts of folks do well...
>
> Since so many misunderstood me, I'll take the rap here and apologize for the
> confusion, but please note, if you're looking to join the "100 chip" purchase
> group, I'm not the guy to contact.
>
> Ken R



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 14 04:38:55 1999
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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199901140826.AAA17992@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Geography...and San Diego
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:26:30 -0800 (PST)
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> Well, I don't want to pile on the tooting of our own horns, but I'll be back
> at Spruce Street on Feb 20 with a group led by SF Bay Area tubist Tom Heasley
> and featuring myself on guitars & loops and Bobby Bradford on cornet.
> 
> Ken R

Cool.  Then we'll actually have something to talk about this time.

Just kidding!  I just have this habit of letting musicians have their
space... after I show, I see them packing away their gear and I always
think that they just want to go home, so I leave 'em alone...

Paolo

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that is just the opposite of me. i love to harrass musicians when they are
done with their show. ask them really innane things like who they thinks rocks
harder jimmy page or ritchie blackmore. or ask them really dumb gear questions
like what are those glowing things in the back of their amps called.  silly,
silly, silly, =-) PJ

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 13, 99 04:51:58 pm
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Subject: Re: Geography...and San Diego
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>> Well, I don't want to pile on the tooting of our own horns, but I'll be back
>> at Spruce Street on Feb 20 with a group led by SF Bay Area tubist Tom
>>Heasley
>> and featuring myself on guitars & loops and Bobby Bradford on cornet.
>>
>> Ken R
>
>Cool.  Then we'll actually have something to talk about this time.
>
>Just kidding!  I just have this habit of letting musicians have their
>space... after I show, I see them packing away their gear and I always
>think that they just want to go home, so I leave 'em alone...
>
>Paolo

Sometimes it's great to hang though. 17 years ago I went to go see Oregon
and after the show they were packing up and I started talking to Colin
Walcott, just casually, without wanting to bug him, and we ended up talking
for 45 minutes because he was so psyched to share his life and his ideas
about music (and his stories about being the only sitar player in NYC with
a union card,etc). After we finished I found out that he was the person
slated to drive the van from Boston to Baltimore immediately after they
loaded out. 2 years later he was killed in a van accident in Germany. I
will always treasure the fact that he took time out of his busy schedule to
hang out with me in the face of that huge drive. I have always tried to
pass that feeling along (although I am no Colin Walcott.).

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


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From: "andre" <andre@monmouth.com>
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Subject: Tony Levin on tour AGAIN...!
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:09:35 -0500
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hey folks... grabbed this from Tony Levin's ever-cool diary page... some
shows coming up, read on see the complete diary entry at
http://www.papabear.com/tlev.htm

andre'

ROAD DIARY

January 13 - New York City

Happy New Year to all. I've been quiet on the road diary, not being sure
what’s coming (hey, that's the rock biz!) but I've got some interesting
developments.

First, regarding the Liquid Tension Group, (Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci,
Jordan Rudess, and me) has finally booked our "January Tour" -- it’s only a
handful of shows. Full details below, but the first is next week in NYC -
the Bowery Ballroom, on Thurs, Jan. 21st. Then on the 22nd, back to Philly,
the T.L.A. (where both the Bruford Levin group, and Dream Theater have
already played in the last months.) We will play at the L.A. NAMM show, but
it's an 'industry' concert, only for people with NAMM passes (that'd be
about 1/3 of the planet earth) Anyway, that's called "Drums along the
Biltmore" at that hotel, on Jan. 30th, and we'll be the last of many
drum/oriented acts on the bill. I've heard we'll go on stage at 1am. On
Feb. 1st we'll play a normal gig in L.A, at the Roxy. The new album is just
being mixed, and I guess we'll play some material from that as well as the
first. (I've got a lot of practicing to do. More notes on each one of those
tracks than on a whole Peter Gabriel album!) 

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From: "Matt Rowe" <mattrowe@hotmail.com>
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Subject: EDP & cakewalk sync problems
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:45:29 PST
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hi all,

i've been syncing my edp to cakewalk via midi, with some degree of 
success.  but i'm experiencing some drift.

i'm looping within cakewalk (say 32 bars), and looping the edp (say 4 
bars) within cakewalk's loop.  the edp doesn't seem to want to stay 
sync'ed with cakewalk, and there is a disturbing amount of drift after 
only a few loops.  in some cases, this is a good thing.  but i'd like to 
have more control over it.

so, any ideas on how to tighten up the phasing?  is there a parameter in 
the edp that will allow it to continuously monitor midi time?  would i 
be better off by sending a click to the edp's brothersync?  if so, what 
types of sounds work best for this?  btw, can i sync my vortex to 
cakewalk/edp this way too, via the tap tempo jack?

tia,
matt




The price I pay for free, private email is the following commercial 
message...


______________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:49:27 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: EDP & cakewalk sync problems
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>hi all,
>
>i've been syncing my edp to cakewalk via midi, with some degree of
>success.  but i'm experiencing some drift.
>
>i'm looping within cakewalk (say 32 bars), and looping the edp (say 4
>bars) within cakewalk's loop.  the edp doesn't seem to want to stay
>sync'ed with cakewalk, and there is a disturbing amount of drift after
>only a few loops.  in some cases, this is a good thing.  but i'd like to
>have more control over it.
>
>so, any ideas on how to tighten up the phasing?  is there a parameter in
>the edp that will allow it to continuously monitor midi time?

It does continuously sync to midi clock, if you have Sync = In. You should
see the far right decimal point flash on the display with each cycle when
midi clock is present, and when the loop syncs it will also flash the
second-from-the-right decimal point.

Are you sure it's not cakewalk that's causing the problem? Some
PC/sequencer combos are horribly inaccurate with clock timing. Also, make
sure cakewalk is actually sending clock. (the dot flashing on the plex is a
reasonable way to check.)  The echoplex is pretty tolerant of drift, and
will still try to sync even when the clock has changed by several BPM.

>would i
>be better off by sending a click to the edp's brothersync?  if so, what
>types of sounds work best for this?

I think you are much better off with midi, even more precise actually,
since the echoplex checks midi slightly more often. If you want to do this
though, you would actually send the sound to the BeatSync jack, not
brother. Any click or sharp percussion type sound would be fine.

kim


______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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Subject: RE: EDP & cakewalk sync problems
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:52:18 -0800
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> i'm looping within cakewalk (say 32 bars), and looping the edp (say 4
> bars) within cakewalk's loop.  the edp doesn't seem to want to stay
> sync'ed with cakewalk, and there is a disturbing amount of drift after
> only a few loops.  in some cases, this is a good thing.  but i'd like to
> have more control over it.
>

The loop mode within Cakewalk is not very good for this purpose. I think
that you will find the same kinds of problems with other sequencers too
though. You may find the only solution is to extend your playing section in
the real sequence and sync/play to that.


> so, any ideas on how to tighten up the phasing?  is there a parameter in
> the edp that will allow it to continuously monitor midi time?  would i
> be better off by sending a click to the edp's brothersync?  if so, what
> types of sounds work best for this?  btw, can i sync my vortex to
> cakewalk/edp this way too, via the tap tempo jack?
>

I've been thinking about the possibility of using an audio output from my
computer to send a wav file emulating a pedal jack. Has anyone managed this?

bIz

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Dear Mr. Kolosowski,

	What type of hardware do you have in that wee beastie?  Have you a SCSI
platform or are you EIDE?
	
	For Hardware, I would recommend a Yamaha XG chipset soundcard like the SW1000
XG, ( http://www.yamaha.co.uk/xg/html/products/p_sw1k.htm )  if you want to
check out the particuliars.

	Can't say that I was too impressed with the HDD recording side of it, but the
sound quality and the cleanliness was rather impressive.  On the HDD recording
side on an NT box, I've found that ye olde combination of Cakewalk and Sound
Forge were the way to go.

	If you switch over to Win95, check out the Paris system.  (
http://www.paris.ensoniq.com )  It works a little better on the Mac, with the
exception of how it caches VERY large chunks of memory.  But if you can get it
to work on a Win98 box (have yet to really get a stable kernel out of 98, to
be honest) do it!  My main gripe on the Win95 side is the 64MB barrier,
whereas on a Win98 box this is "supposed" to be fixed, however I've been
finding that the barrier therein is more like 256MB.  

	Anywho, if you have any questions, please feel free to shoot them to me
directly or back to the group.  Have fun!

	Tchus,

		Lee-ohki.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 14 18:43:06 1999
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From: SoundFNR@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:34:07 EST
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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Event's Gina, 2 track in, 8 out +S/PDif, 20 bit  44.1 or 48 kHz
with bundled multitrack software.RRP=A3499 UK

they also do one called Layla which has 8 inputs & 10 outputs
2xS/PDif RRP=A3899 UK

and Darla =A3299 2in 8 out

www.event1.com to find out more

Recommended (I use the Gina) ,better than 'CD quality'.

If you want a Midi synth soundcard the Yamaha wavetable gear seems to be b=
est
quality, but  all the sounds are not equally good as some of the samples s=
ound
like they recorded synth imitations.  

Andy Butler

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 14 19:03:04 1999
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Anyone have any experience with the LynxOne (PC) yet?  Digital IO, Analog
IO, 2 MIDI ports and NT Drivers.  They're at
http://www.lynxstudio.com/products.html and got a great review at
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/LynxONE .

The reviewers also have an interesting benchmark summary for comparing PC
soundcards at http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/summary/index.htm .

sean

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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199901150057.QAA22324@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: NAMM (was Tony Levin on tour AGAIN...!)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:57:21 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <v03102801b2c3efdadbde@[207.171.198.57]> from "Kim Flint" at Jan 14, 99 11:07:22 am
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> BTW, if anyone is actually going, it would be fun to hook up, maybe have a
> little get-together. let me know.
> 
> kim

I'll be there for at least 3 of the four days: Thursday to Saturday.

My NAMM veteran friend says everyone usually leaves early on Sundays
( maybe to watch the Superbowl? )...

I have a rough idea of what I want to look at... as far as looping gear
goes I'd like to check out Yamaha's upcoming SU-700 sampler, a tabletop
unit like the Ensoniq ASR-X,  Roland SP-808, and Akai MPC2000 that reportedly 
has some internal similarities to the A3000 rackmount sampler as well
as see other looping gear in person.

Cheers,
PAolo

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PJBMHB@aol.com wrote:

> that is just the opposite of me. i love to harrass musicians when they are
> done with their show. ask them really innane things like who they thinks rocks
> harder jimmy page or ritchie blackmore. or ask them really dumb gear questions
> like what are those glowing things in the back of their amps called.  silly,
> silly, silly, =-) PJ

  Then you'd love the SceneKillers (members of Couch Flambeau from Milwaukee)
since that is what most of their songs are about, making fun of rock stars (as
well as themselves).  Old old shit tho.  funny silly wacky stuff!
J-

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From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: NAMM (was Tony Levin on tour AGAIN...!)
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At 10:09 AM -0800 1/14/99, andre wrote:

>it's an 'industry' concert, only for people with NAMM passes (that'd be
>about 1/3 of the planet earth)

well, not this year - they restricted badges quite a lot. Companies without
booths only get 4 badges, and then have to pay quite a bit for any
additional ones. Spandex and silicone sightings are expected to be way down
from previous years.

BTW, if anyone is actually going, it would be fun to hook up, maybe have a
little get-together. let me know.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 14 23:34:10 1999
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Chris Chovit <cho@newdream.net>
Subject: Re: the CDs --> Liberate Music!
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Mister McKnight wrote:

>Why not just put it on an ftp site and create temporary accounts for buyers
>so they
>can get on there and download it to burn their own?


Hey, that is a great idea!  I got a CD burner a few months ago, and have
been using it like a mad fool.  I have been thinking about this very idea,
which is, basically, to cut out the middle-men from the music industry:
The artist sells directly to the consumer over the internet.

1.  The manufacturing costs are gone.
2.  The distribution costs are reduced - just server costs.
3.  The artist gets ALL the profit.

The consumer would benefit, as well, since the price of the product would
surely drop with all the costs and middlemen cut out.

I would even encourage artists to give their music away for FREE!   [Of
course, at this point in my life, I am still the consumer, and not the
artist, so I may be biased here.]  But here are some good arguments for
doing this:

1. The artist's music will be exposed to more people (namely, all the
people who wouldn't have paid money to experiment, but was willing to give
a listen if it were free).

2. The artist can still make money selling PRODUCTS, (ie. cd's, tapes,
t-shirts, etc.).  After all, not everyone has cd burners, so there will
still be a demand for material products.

Personally, I feel good about giving money to artists whose work inspires
me, so I would still buy products (as I do now) from those folks who I
considered to be QUALITY.  I would still download their music for free, but
I would be inclined to support them by going to their shows, buying their
actual cd's, t-shirts, etc.  The way I see it, its a win-win for artists &
consumers & the only ones who will lose with this scenario is the record
companies and retail stores.....and I think I can live with that.
(Besides, they can always merge with ISPs and become music servers).

- chris



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From: "BLaKout" <Vortex4@ix.netcom.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Looking for a JAM MAN
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:36:28 -0500
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------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE4016.B4FEACC0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey I am looking buy a JAM MAN.  I would greatly appreciate it if some =
one could direct me in the right direction if they know anyone or =
anywhere is selling one.

Thanks ..

   mike
    BLAKOUT@BIGFOOT.COM

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hey I am looking buy a JAM MAN.&nbsp; I would =
greatly=20
appreciate it if some one could direct me in the right direction if they =
know=20
anyone or anywhere is selling one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks ..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; mike</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:BLAKOUT@BIGFOOT.COM">BLAKOUT@BIGFOOT.COM</A></FONT></DIV><=
/BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE4016.B4FEACC0--

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 15 00:10:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:04:59 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: the CDs --> Liberate Music!
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Chris,
	You've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I've been doing for
the past year and a half. I love it. I'm able to trade my music, sell it,
give it away. Total control. A friend with a studio or your own home unit,
a cd burner (mine's in the computer...) and a labelmaker kit . . . and
you're ready to go. I've got my own CD and am about to release my trio's.
So far, no one else will do it--so why the hell not, y'know?
Saw yer laters,
Jeff McLeod
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

At 08:29 PM 1/14/99 -0800, you wrote:

>Hey, that is a great idea!  I got a CD burner a few months ago, and have
>been using it like a mad fool.  I have been thinking about this very idea,
>which is, basically, to cut out the middle-men from the music industry:
>The artist sells directly to the consumer over the internet.
>
>1.  The manufacturing costs are gone.
>2.  The distribution costs are reduced - just server costs.
>3.  The artist gets ALL the profit.
>
>The consumer would benefit, as well, since the price of the product would
>surely drop with all the costs and middlemen cut out.
>
>I would even encourage artists to give their music away for FREE!   [Of
>course, at this point in my life, I am still the consumer, and not the
>artist, so I may be biased here.]  But here are some good arguments for
>doing this:
>
>1. The artist's music will be exposed to more people (namely, all the
>people who wouldn't have paid money to experiment, but was willing to give
>a listen if it were free).
>
>2. The artist can still make money selling PRODUCTS, (ie. cd's, tapes,
>t-shirts, etc.).  After all, not everyone has cd burners, so there will
>still be a demand for material products.
>
>Personally, I feel good about giving money to artists whose work inspires
>me, so I would still buy products (as I do now) from those folks who I
>considered to be QUALITY.  I would still download their music for free, but
>I would be inclined to support them by going to their shows, buying their
>actual cd's, t-shirts, etc.  The way I see it, its a win-win for artists &
>consumers & the only ones who will lose with this scenario is the record
>companies and retail stores.....and I think I can live with that.
>(Besides, they can always merge with ISPs and become music servers).
>
>- chris

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In a message dated 99-01-15 03:13:29 EST, you write:

<< that is just the opposite of me. i love to harrass musicians when they are
 done with their show. ask them really innane things like who they thinks
rocks
 harder jimmy page or ritchie blackmore. >>

Even though Richie Blackmore and I share the same birthday and there were a
few Deep Purple records I wore out in the 70's, I vote for Jimmy.

Is that the topic police I hear?

Ken R

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> I would even encourage artists to give their music away for FREE!   [Of
> course, at this point in my life, I am still the consumer, and not the
> artist, so I may be biased here.]  

Hmmm.  

I realize most of the people on this list aren't actively making their
living through playing music, and that even fewer are making their
living playing their own music.  I've got no problem with people who
want to trade or give away their music out of sheer goodwill or the
desire to have their music heard.

However, here are some arguments for an artist actually charging a price
for what they do.  (Hopefully this won't utterly reek of a struggling
musician complaining about his lot in life.)

Making music takes time.  Trying to make music in certain ways can take
a *lot* of time.  Just getting yourself to the point where you have the
technical facility to realize that music (be it practicing a guitar or
programming samples in a computer) can take a *very very* long time.
Coming home from working eight hours in a "day job" and then trying to
muster up the energy and concentration to do a few hours of serious
practicing (not just vacant noodling in front of the TV) is a hugely
draining proposition.  

So trying to turn one's music into one's profession is often born
largely out of the need to set aside the necessary space in one's life
to pursue their music the way they want to.  

Many people who are serious about music have spent countless hours
throughout their entire lives trying to hone their craft.  It's not just
a case of idly sitting around thinking about how great it would be to
get paid money to strum a few chords -- it's a very serious investment
of discipline on many different levels.  A lot of musicians still
struggle to maintain that sort of dedication even while doing non-music
related jobs in order to make ends meet.  To suggest to someone in this
position that they might better serve their creative muse by giving away
music they have recorded in the name of liberating the creative spirit,
and then subsidize the expenditure by selling *t-shirts* of themselves,
is a dubious proposition to say the least.  

The idea of "alternative merchaindising" (t-shirts, posters, etc) works
well for a name act which has a fixed identity, an existing fan base,
and/or "product value".  People buy shirts from these acts because they
want to identify themselves as fans in public, and be recognized as fans
by other people who are presumed to have a knowledge of the artist in
question.  In short, you can get a lot of milage out of wearing a
Marilyn Manson T-shirt at a rock concert.  You'll get about 1/1000th of
a mile to the gallon wearing a "Joe Schmoe, Internet Loopist At Large"
shirt when you check your e-mail.  

You're absolutely right that online marketing and distribution is going
to completely change the way music is bought and sold, and you're right
that it allows the artist to eliminate the middleman.  For those very
reasons, the idea that the artist should therefore start giving their
music away through this sort of medium is a pretty unsympathetic point
of view.

Just about any band or artist web site nowadays has a page of sound
bites online where people can download samples of the act's music. 
Posting excerpts is the ideal way to go, since it gives a listener a
taste of what the band has to offer; at the same time, if someone wants
the entire piece, they need to buy the recording.  The artist's music is
exposed to just as many people as it would be if it were given away
online, but the artist isn't forfeiting their right to try and get a
tangible return on a lifetime's worth of work -- to say nothing of a
very real investment of finances in order to get the music recorded in
the first place.

If someone is actually taking the time and expense to record and
mass-produce (or even burn individual CD-Rs) of their music, the least
you can realistically expect is that they'll want to cover the cost of
doing so.  I realize that there are people (including some of you here)
who will and do go further, and give away these items in the name of
sharing your music.  I sincerely applaud your approach, but I also fully
empathize with those who want (let alone *need*) to see a return on
their investment.

My experience has been that the average person who buys records (or for
that matter, many people who follow music seriously and are themselves
musically active) don't really have the first clue as to what the
realities of trying to make a living in the arts is really like, either
in terms of the situational realities of the marketplace or in terms of
the psychological realities that an artist in that situation is prone to
dealing with on a day-to-day or minute-by-minute basis.

So, for all those who have no doubt spent every bit as much time and
dedication pursuing their music as has been detailed above, and are
still perfectly happy to have music as a hobby, a side interest, or a
lark, more power to you.  

But I'd like every person reading this to do one thing: Think about your
favorite musicians and artists.  Think about how their music has
affected your lives.  Think about the investment of time and resources
that it must have taken for them to be able to bring these things into
being.  

And then think about whether or not this music could realistically have
come into being if they hadn't pursued music professionally.

--Andre LaFosse
http://home.earthlink.net/~altruist

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 15 04:13:31 1999
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From: "Future Perfect" <artmusic@gte.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: the CDs --> Liberate Music!
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 04:06:49 -0500
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We have been doing the same thing for the last 8 months, burn the cds at
home, design the inserts at home, etc. And we sell em at shows. It has
provided a significant source of income as well, makes it so we can buy more
CD blanks, software, etc.

Dave Eichenberger
*********************************************************************
'Future Perfect' - art music
guitars-loops-flutes-devices-voices
http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/

> Chris,
> 	You've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I've
> been doing for
> the past year and a half. I love it. I'm able to trade my music, sell it,
> give it away.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 15 08:32:59 1999
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From: Todd Quincy <tquincy@davitt-hanser.com>
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i'll be there, and i invite all LD folk to stop by booth S3137
(Davitt&Hanser)  or s5225 (bc rich) to say hello.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kim Flint [SMTP:kflint@annihilist.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 14, 1999 2:07 PM
> To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject:	Re: NAMM (was Tony Levin on tour AGAIN...!)
> 
> At 10:09 AM -0800 1/14/99, andre wrote:
> 
> >it's an 'industry' concert, only for people with NAMM passes (that'd
> be
> >about 1/3 of the planet earth)
> 
> well, not this year - they restricted badges quite a lot. Companies
> without
> booths only get 4 badges, and then have to pay quite a bit for any
> additional ones. Spandex and silicone sightings are expected to be way
> down
> from previous years.
> 
> BTW, if anyone is actually going, it would be fun to hook up, maybe
> have a
> little get-together. let me know.
> 
> kim
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
> kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
> http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com
> 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 15 09:37:14 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:26:25 -0800 (PST)
From: H IP <hip808@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: EDP & cakewalk sync problems
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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I'm having the same problem. It happens both on my PII 400Hz PC using
Cubase and 7100 Mac using Logic Audio.

Mr. Kim Flint has helped to reply that it shouldn't be the problem on
EDP. I think there may be problem on the steadiness of MIDI clock
generated by some PC/Mac.

I found same problem when I using MIDI clock to sync the appregiator
on my Nord Lead. However, it works perfectly normal for MIDI notes and
other data.

Assumming EDP is perfect in sync (I have the version 5.0), it may be
the problem on PC/Mac. It drives me a bit crazy :(

Once I used a DR-5 drum machine to MIDI sync EDP, it has no problem.
I'll borrow a MC-303 to see if it works (it should, I think)

Also, I used a little DB-12 (Boss Metrome) to brother sync the EDP, it
works perfectly! I used a Y-cable to a headphone amp and let my
drummer to listen to the beat. It's fun and working.

HIP




---Matt Rowe <mattrowe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> hi all,
> 
> i've been syncing my edp to cakewalk via midi, with some degree of 
> success.  but i'm experiencing some drift.
> 
....

> so, any ideas on how to tighten up the phasing?  is there a
parameter in 
> the edp that will allow it to continuously monitor midi time?  would
i 
> be better off by sending a click to the edp's brothersync?  if so,
what 
> types of sounds work best for this?  btw, can i sync my vortex to 
> cakewalk/edp this way too, via the tap tempo jack?
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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			Playlist for "EMUSIC"

"Emusic," an electronic, ambient, and space music show, airs each Thursday
at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem, PA and 93.9 FM in
Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ.  http://wdiyfm.org/schedule/s_emusic.html

		Show #97		January 14, 1999.
		Host: Bill Fox		http://wdiyfm.org
		billfox@fast.net

On this show, I continued the month-long focus on electronic music
pioneer, Wendy Carlos.  For background information, please point your
web browser to the WDIY web site or visit the...

Wendy Carlos web site:	http://www.wendycarlos.com

The feature CD at midnight was "Digital Moonscapes" on CBS Masterworks.

ARTIST                  TRACK                    ALBUM (label)
======================= ======================== ==============================
11:00 pm
Synergy (Larry Fast)    Orbit Five               Audion (Third Eye)
Synergy (Larry Fast)    Revolt at L-5            Audion (Third Eye)
RAMP                    Annular                  Nodular (Manikin)
DwellerAtTheThreshold   Transmission (parts 1-5) DwellerAtTheThreshold (Eurock)
Syndromeda              The Man of God           The Legacy of GOD (Groove)
Elemental               Le Charme                Lux Aeternae (Aethyr)
VA [TelekineticSoulmate] Searching             Defective Soundscapes (Defective)
Lambert                 Atmosdepth VII           Inside Out (Spheric)
Bionaut                 Faulty Star Charts       Big Causeway To Gone (Triptych)

12:00 am
Wendy Carlos            Genesis                  Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Eden                     Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            I.C.                     Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Luna                     Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Phobos and Deimos        Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Gannymede                Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Europa                   Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Io                       Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Callisto                 Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Rhea                     Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Titan                    Digital Moonscapes (CBS)
Wendy Carlos            Iapetus                  Digital Moonscapes (CBS)

1:00 am

 * = exerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)

On the next EMUSIC, I will continue the month-long focus on electronic
music pioneer, Wendy Carlos.  The feature CD at midnight will be "A
Clockwork Orange" on the East Side Digital label.

Please visit the WDIY web site and navigate through the schedule to the
EMUSIC pages.  Playlists for every show are there.  Hot links to artists
and labels can be found in the monthly focus section.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 15 13:44:53 1999
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From: Greg Meredith <gregmer@MICROSOFT.com>
To: taptalk@progrock.net, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: seeking seattle area loopers and tappers
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:20:11 -0800
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Folks,

i'm seeking Stick and/or Warr Guitar players, and Loopists who 

*	have a strong need for Music to be present in their lives;
*	live in the Seattle area;
*	would be interested in participating in a project that integrates 
*	mathematics, 
*	music theory and 
*	traditional African and Afro-Haitian rhythms;
*	are comfortable with an approach that combines intellect and
emotion.

Those interested should feel free to contact me via the email address in
this missive or at 425 703 9348. 

--greg

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From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
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ill take all the "free" music i can get but i am willing to pay for someones
work....i work several jobs and have a family that has to put up with my
spending every free moment, trying to create music...."wheres dad?"....."oh,
cant you hear him!!!!"....."turn that down (we are trying to sleep, your
driving us crazy".....i have always assumed that my familys artistic vision is
the same as mine.......not so......i am nowhere near the point of making my
own c.d.s.......i still use cassettes, and am quite happy with the
results......andre is right, there really is no such thing as "free"
music....there is always a cost, be it money for equipment, time, effort, and
at times alienation of loved ones.....i would love to send everyone on the
list a cassette of my top hits, just to get some feedback from "like minded
spirits" rather than "i might understand this music if i were trippin!" and
this comment from someone who has never tripped....yipes!.....an interesting
question to say the least...the creation of music does not happen in a
void......as i said, just a few thoughts......michael

p.s. after the ice melts here in pittsburgh, i am going to look at a venue (an
old ball-room on a 2 acre estate here in town, seating for about 80-100,
sounds like a very nice performance space and i am also going to check out the
possibility of taking over a bed and breakfast so out of towners will have a
place to sleep, my house is not big enough.....i sort of envision a 2 day
looper workshop, performance type thing if we pull off this north east looper
get together.....facts and figures will be forthcoming......if anyone else is
working on this project, please let me know, other cities other ideas are all
welcome.....ive never done this sort of thing before so im working with only
my own warped ideas........michael

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I'll second that! 
But I've long lost my copy - is it available on CD?

Thanks,
rob
-the man cable-

Michael Peters schrieb:
> 
> Morgan Fisher wrote,
> 
> > I've been lurking long enough - and what an active list this is - amazing!
> 
> cool to have you on the list. Miniatures used to be one of my favourite albums... it's still worth listening to!
> 
> *       Michael Peters:         mpeters@csi.com
> *       escape veloopity:               electronic guitar loop music
> *       hop - fractals in motion:       strange attractors
> *       http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mpeters



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 15 15:35:18 1999
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From: "Corban L" <crashing_it@hotmail.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: seeking seattle area loopers and tappers
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:19:58 PST
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>
>i'm seeking Stick and/or Warr Guitar players, and Loopists who 
>
>*	have a strong need for Music to be present in their lives;
>*	live in the Seattle area;
>*	would be interested in participating in a project that integrates 
>*	mathematics, 
>*	music theory and 
>*	traditional African and Afro-Haitian rhythms;
>*	are comfortable with an approach that combines intellect and
>emotion.
>

Hey-- I'm in Portland, but possibly moving back to Seattle this year--

Oddly enough, I left because I couldn't find any suitably interesting 
music projects to involve myself with while I was there...

It would be nice to hear more about your plans, if youlike.

Corban
503-242-2576

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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-----Original Message-----
From: Cummings <r_t_cummings@csi.com>


>I'll second that!
>But I've long lost my copy - is it available on CD?


>> cool to have you on the list. Miniatures used to be one of my favourite
albums... it's still worth listening to!


I'll third that!
Is it available?

Pete.

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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Morgan Fisher <morgan@gol.com>
Subject: Re: the CDs --> Liberate Music!
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I'd just like to say that Andre LaFosse's message was one of the most
well-thought out, articulate and caring messages I've read online in a long
time. Kudos to you, sir!

Morgan Fisher

>From Morgan Fisher, Tokyo, Japan

Email address: morgan@gol.com
Second email address: Morgan_Fisher@ringo.net


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 16 06:16:55 1999
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Morgan Fisher <morgan@gol.com>
Subject: Miniatures
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Thanks Pete and Rob for your interest.

Here's info re the company wo have re-issued "Miniatures" on CD (catalogue
number VP159CD):

VOICEPRINT RECORDS
TEL: 44-191-512-1103 FAX: 1104
SUNRISE HOUSE, GAS HOUSE LANE, HOUGHTON-LE-SPRING, CO. DURHAM DH4 5AL, ENGLA=
ND
http://www.webworlds.co.uk/the-wilderness
OR:
http://www.voiceprint.co.uk
Credit Card Hotline: 44-191-512-1109

Various online CD sellers have it too, and also here is a distributor in
Canada:

PAGE MUSIC
416-383-0808 FAX 416-383-0303
20 Railside Road, North York, Ontario, Canada M3A 1A3
http://www.pagemusic.com

I am just finishing the sequel (60 artists this time!) - no release date
set yet.

=46ollowing is the list of artists on the 1980 album.

Cheers! Loop on!

Morgan Fisher

BAND 1
01. OLLIE HALSALL & JOHN HALSEY
02. THE RESIDENTS
03. ROGER McGOUGH
04. MORGAN FISHER
05. JOHN OTWAY

BAND 2
06. PETE CHALLIS & PHIL DIPLOCK
07. ROBERT WYATT
08. STINKY WINKLES
09. MARY LONGFORD
10. ANDY 'THUNDERCLAP' NEWMAN
11. DAVID BEDFORD

BAND 3
12. FRED FRITH
13. MAGGIE NICOLS
14. JOSEPH RACAILLE
15. THE WORK
16. NEIL INNES & SON

BAND 4
17. HERBERT DISTEL
18. LOL COXHILL
19. KEN ELLIS
20. STEVE MILLER

BAND 5
21. NORMAN LOVETT
22. PATRICK PORTELLA
23. GEORGE MELLY
24. ROBERT FRIPP
25. ANDY PARTRIDGE (XTC)
26. PHANTOM CAPTAIN

BAND 6
27. RON GEESIN
28. ALEJANDRO VI=D1AO
29. QUENTIN CRISP
30. SIMON DESORGHER
31. RALPH STEADMAN
32. R.D.LAING & SON

BAND 7
33. TREVOR WISHART
34. JOHN WHITE
35. IVOR CUTLER
36. HECTOR ZAZOU
37. MICHAEL BASS & ELLEN TENENBAUM

BAND 8
38. MARTIN CHAMBERS (THE PRETENDERS)
39. BOB COBBING & HENRI CHOPIN
40. DAVE VANIAN (THE DAMNED)
41. METABOLIST

BAND 9
42. GAVIN BRYARS
43. 1/2 JAPANESE
44. SIMON JEFFES
45. MARK PERRY
46. MICHAEL NYMAN

BAND 10
47. DAVID CUNNINGHAM (THE FLYING LIZARDS)
48. KEVIN COYNE
49. ETRON FOU LELOUBLAN
50. NEIL ORAM & KEN CAMPBELL & THE SCIENCE FICTION THEATRE OF LIVERPOOL
51. PETE SEEGER

=46rom Morgan Fisher, Tokyo, Japan

Email address: morgan@gol.com
Second email address: Morgan_Fisher@ringo.net


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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Chris Chovit <cho@newdream.net>
Subject: Re: the CDs --> Liberate Music!
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You've made some good points, Andre.   Since I've made the choice about
making my living in another field, and making music simply for joy, I
didn't consider the point of view that people are trying to make a living
at this stuff.  I am sure you are right that most musicians (who make their
living from music) cannot afford to give their music away, as they have
invested a lot and are depending on their craft.  It would be like me
giving away technical consutling time for free.

Everyone needs to answer for themselves: Why am I making music?  If part of
the answer is "to make a living" then I can see that you have to to do what
you have to do.  However, if there are folks out there who are doing what
they do simply because they love to do it, (ie. they don't financially
depend on it), perhaps they would be more willing to share their music for
free.  I wonder what percentage of musicians they are...?   probably
small...

You are right about our favorite artists:  Pink Floyd did not get to where
they are because they considered themselves pure artists -- they were in a
business to sell records and worked hard at doing that.  They invested
money and used the returns to invest more money.  Otherwise, they'd still
only be playing in London clubs.

Thanks for you clear thoughts, Andre!

- Chris




>> I would even encourage artists to give their music away for FREE!   [Of
>> course, at this point in my life, I am still the consumer, and not the
>> artist, so I may be biased here.]
>
>Hmmm.
>
>I realize most of the people on this list aren't actively making their
>living through playing music, and that even fewer are making their
>living playing their own music.  I've got no problem with people who
>want to trade or give away their music out of sheer goodwill or the
>desire to have their music heard.
>
>However, here are some arguments for an artist actually charging a price
>for what they do.  (Hopefully this won't utterly reek of a struggling
>musician complaining about his lot in life.)
>
>Making music takes time.  Trying to make music in certain ways can take
>a *lot* of time.  Just getting yourself to the point where you have the
>technical facility to realize that music (be it practicing a guitar or
>programming samples in a computer) can take a *very very* long time.
>Coming home from working eight hours in a "day job" and then trying to
>muster up the energy and concentration to do a few hours of serious
>practicing (not just vacant noodling in front of the TV) is a hugely
>draining proposition.
>
>So trying to turn one's music into one's profession is often born
>largely out of the need to set aside the necessary space in one's life
>to pursue their music the way they want to.
>
>Many people who are serious about music have spent countless hours
>throughout their entire lives trying to hone their craft.  It's not just
>a case of idly sitting around thinking about how great it would be to
>get paid money to strum a few chords -- it's a very serious investment
>of discipline on many different levels.  A lot of musicians still
>struggle to maintain that sort of dedication even while doing non-music
>related jobs in order to make ends meet.  To suggest to someone in this
>position that they might better serve their creative muse by giving away
>music they have recorded in the name of liberating the creative spirit,
>and then subsidize the expenditure by selling *t-shirts* of themselves,
>is a dubious proposition to say the least.
>
>The idea of "alternative merchaindising" (t-shirts, posters, etc) works
>well for a name act which has a fixed identity, an existing fan base,
>and/or "product value".  People buy shirts from these acts because they
>want to identify themselves as fans in public, and be recognized as fans
>by other people who are presumed to have a knowledge of the artist in
>question.  In short, you can get a lot of milage out of wearing a
>Marilyn Manson T-shirt at a rock concert.  You'll get about 1/1000th of
>a mile to the gallon wearing a "Joe Schmoe, Internet Loopist At Large"
>shirt when you check your e-mail.
>
>You're absolutely right that online marketing and distribution is going
>to completely change the way music is bought and sold, and you're right
>that it allows the artist to eliminate the middleman.  For those very
>reasons, the idea that the artist should therefore start giving their
>music away through this sort of medium is a pretty unsympathetic point
>of view.
>
>Just about any band or artist web site nowadays has a page of sound
>bites online where people can download samples of the act's music.
>Posting excerpts is the ideal way to go, since it gives a listener a
>taste of what the band has to offer; at the same time, if someone wants
>the entire piece, they need to buy the recording.  The artist's music is
>exposed to just as many people as it would be if it were given away
>online, but the artist isn't forfeiting their right to try and get a
>tangible return on a lifetime's worth of work -- to say nothing of a
>very real investment of finances in order to get the music recorded in
>the first place.
>
>If someone is actually taking the time and expense to record and
>mass-produce (or even burn individual CD-Rs) of their music, the least
>you can realistically expect is that they'll want to cover the cost of
>doing so.  I realize that there are people (including some of you here)
>who will and do go further, and give away these items in the name of
>sharing your music.  I sincerely applaud your approach, but I also fully
>empathize with those who want (let alone *need*) to see a return on
>their investment.
>
>My experience has been that the average person who buys records (or for
>that matter, many people who follow music seriously and are themselves
>musically active) don't really have the first clue as to what the
>realities of trying to make a living in the arts is really like, either
>in terms of the situational realities of the marketplace or in terms of
>the psychological realities that an artist in that situation is prone to
>dealing with on a day-to-day or minute-by-minute basis.
>
>So, for all those who have no doubt spent every bit as much time and
>dedication pursuing their music as has been detailed above, and are
>still perfectly happy to have music as a hobby, a side interest, or a
>lark, more power to you.
>
>But I'd like every person reading this to do one thing: Think about your
>favorite musicians and artists.  Think about how their music has
>affected your lives.  Think about the investment of time and resources
>that it must have taken for them to be able to bring these things into
>being.
>
>And then think about whether or not this music could realistically have
>come into being if they hadn't pursued music professionally.
>
>--Andre LaFosse
>http://home.earthlink.net/~altruist



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 16 14:53:18 1999
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From: "Tim Walker" <tawalker@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
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Previously on Looper's Delight, Rob wrote:

"I'll second that! But I've long lost my copy - is it available on CD?"

...in response to Michael Peters' posting:
---
Michael Peters schrieb:
> 
> Morgan Fisher wrote,
> 
> > I've been lurking long enough - and what an active list this is - amazing!
> 
> cool to have you on the list. Miniatures used to be one of my favourite albums... it's still worth listening to!

I agree too. "Miniatures" certainly is available on CD, at least in the
UK, where it's on the Blueprint label as cat. no. BP159. I'm not sure
about the US or elsewhere, so you may have to try CDNow or that sort of
place to check availability. It's a fine album, notable amongst other
things for perhaps the only solo synthesiser piece Robert Fripp has
released (if you don't count his more recent guitar synth-laden
recordings), and a very wide range of musical styles from warped music
hall to full-bore improv. All in minute-sized chunks :-)

Hope that's useful...

Best wishes,
Tim.

*******************Tim Walker - Staines, UK*******************
  tawalker@dircon.co.uk - www.users.dircon.co.uk/~tawalker/
          Visit Tim's NEW recordings page at MP3.com:
*********************www.mp3.com/timwalker/*******************


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Organization: James H. Sidlo
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Return-Path: <techsupport@stic.net>
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Granted, we were having problems with the mail server for a while,
but there's no reason that this list shouldn't have been able to 
connect for 5 days. Some of our customers have had some problems
because their mail was set to @stic.net and not @mail.stic.net 
so I set it up so your mail is also @mail.stic.net 
jameshsidlo@mail.stic.net
maybe this is part of the problem.

Thanks,

Chuck F

At 06:23 PM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote:
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>Before sending in a subscription request to
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>
>The last one of those bounced mails has been quoted below:
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If you like Warr guitar check out Markus Reuter's 'Taster' CD.


>Folks,
>
>i'm seeking Stick and/or Warr Guitar players, and Loopists who 
>
>*	have a strong need for Music to be present in their lives;
>*	live in the Seattle area;
>*	would be interested in participating in a project that integrates 
>*	mathematics, 
>*	music theory and 
>*	traditional African and Afro-Haitian rhythms;
>*	are comfortable with an approach that combines intellect and
>emotion.
>
>Those interested should feel free to contact me via the email address in
>this missive or at 425 703 9348. 
>
>--greg
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 16 18:49:22 1999
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> > I would even encourage artists to give their music away for FREE!   [Of
> > course, at this point in my life, I am still the consumer, and not the
> > artist, so I may be biased here.]  
 
> Hmmm.  
 
> I realize most of the people on this list aren't actively making their
> living through playing music, and that even fewer are making their
> living playing their own music.  I've got no problem with people who
> want to trade or give away their music out of sheer goodwill or the
> desire to have their music heard.
 
> However, here are some arguments for an artist actually charging a price
> for what they do.  (Hopefully this won't utterly reek of a struggling
> musician complaining about his lot in life.)
 
Well, Andre goes on here to say a number of things that hit the nail on the
head, but I'm going to go a few steps further than his paragraph above.  The
notion that someone's music is somehow a part of the ether that is freely
available to anyone who wants it, like freedom or love or the air you breathe
is patently absurd.  My personal take on this is that it's based on the myth
that because artists supposedly love what they do so much it's somehow not
fair for them to be negotiating compensation for it, that they should somehow
be so grateful for that priviledge that just the mere reception of an audience
is payment enough.  That's really pretty naive.  When's the last time YOU were
so generous with the means by which you pay your rent and feed your kids?
When's the last time you were told that trying to negotiate more money for
those means, or taking on a task you'd rather not do, was a compromise of your
personal integrity?

Believe it or not, I've had club owners ask me to get some of the best
freelance jazz musicians in LA for gigs and then say they were only offering
$30 a person because they were extending us a forum to "have fun".  Or, I've
had the parents of the bride ask the wedding band to play an additional hour
beyond the contracted time, without additional pay, because "everyone's
enjoying your music so much".  When's the last time you got a plumber to fix
an extra pipe for nothing because you appreciated him so much?  When's the
last time you got your mechanic to "have fun" fixing your brakes for $30?

Make no mistake, under the best circumstances I love doing it for a living,
but there are many drawbacks.  I don't get paid sick days.  Health insurance,
even through the union, is prohibitively expensive (fortunately my wife has a
job that allows me to be on hers fairly inexpensively).  I have no recorse
against 90% of my gigs or students that decide to cancel at the last minute.
Let's not even get into what creditors think of you...

And no, I don't expect to see a huge proliferation of "Joe Schmoe, Internet
Looper At Large" T-shirts on the street in the near future...

Hmmm...I wonder if this can work both ways?  I wonder if someone could send me
an EDP, a nice 4-track digital home demo set-up, or a Blonde Butterscotch '52
Reissue Telecaster if I promise to have fun with them?  Nothing too
extravigant, mind you...

Ken R

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Message-ID: <36A0BCB2.68A9@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:22:10 +0000
From: Colin Jenkinson <jeancolin@earthlink.net>
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If you like ambient  Stick  check out my CD 'Expience Cloud'.
Available for trade or sale($15).


I will be performing at  Stick Night in Los Angeles at La Va Lee, on 
Thursday,January  28. Starts at 8pm line up will include:

Don Schiff
Greg Howard
Bob Culbertson
Tom Griesgraber
Casey Arrillaga

I will be performing Loops on my Stick with the contrapuntal Stickist 
Randy Graetch.

Colin Jenkinson                            |                                 nosnikneJ niloC

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From: Greg Meredith <gregmer@MICROSOFT.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: the CDs --> Liberate Music!
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:06:52 -0800
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Andre,

Well-said. i often imagine a world where some of my favorite musicians made
different choices. Steve Reich could have become an academic philosopher.
Eno could have become a chemist. Robert Fripp could have become an engineer.
My world would have been infinitely bleaker had these people made other
choices. Because of this sense of enrichment, i am glad to support, directly
and fiscally, the musicians whose work i consume.

On the other hand, mass distribution of music has been a horrible thing.
Over and above the effects you describe in which people become alienated
from the real energy and effort involved in the production of music, there
is the environmental impact. Even if what i had to communicate musically had
wide appeal, which i sincerely doubt, the image of a warehouse full of CD's
and cassette tapes with my name on them-no chance of them gracefully
bio-degrading for the next 10,000 years-gives me the shivers. i can barely
face up to the consequences of the plastic i do consume, much less handle
the responsibility for bringing so much more into the world.

i relish participating in the emergence of a vehicle like the Internet by
which i can learn about people who produce musics i enjoy and which allows
me to support them more directly. When i think about a future in which that
music can be distributed more directly from producer to audience with much
less environmental impact, i feel a distinct sense of hope. 

On a completely different note, i was wondering if any of you loopists have
been exploring yet another natural extension of looping: playing the loops
by hand in an ensemble setting? Over the 11 years i've been looping i've
gradually gotten  interested in longer and longer loops. And i've been
exploring layering loops of different cycle lengths to produce still longer
loops. i've also gotten more interested in the human feel that arises when a
group finds its natural tempo. (E.g., what one experiences in a drum
circle.) Has anyone been experimenting with this sort of thing? 

i'd be especially interested to hear of other's experiences in this kind of
setting. Additionally, if anyone has developed useful techniques for
maintaining/splitting attention while playing long, hypnotic loops, i'd
really like to hear about them.

--greg

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Andre LaFosse [SMTP:altruist@earthlink.net]
	Sent:	Friday, January 15, 1999 1:25 AM
	To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
	Subject:	Re: the CDs --> Liberate Music!

	> I would even encourage artists to give their music away for FREE!
[Of
	> course, at this point in my life, I am still the consumer, and not
the
	> artist, so I may be biased here.]  

	Hmmm.  

	I realize most of the people on this list aren't actively making
their
	living through playing music, and that even fewer are making their
	living playing their own music.  I've got no problem with people who
	want to trade or give away their music out of sheer goodwill or the
	desire to have their music heard.

	However, here are some arguments for an artist actually charging a
price
	for what they do.  (Hopefully this won't utterly reek of a
struggling
	musician complaining about his lot in life.)

	Making music takes time.  Trying to make music in certain ways can
take
	a *lot* of time.  Just getting yourself to the point where you have
the
	technical facility to realize that music (be it practicing a guitar
or
	programming samples in a computer) can take a *very very* long time.
	Coming home from working eight hours in a "day job" and then trying
to
	muster up the energy and concentration to do a few hours of serious
	practicing (not just vacant noodling in front of the TV) is a hugely
	draining proposition.  

	So trying to turn one's music into one's profession is often born
	largely out of the need to set aside the necessary space in one's
life
	to pursue their music the way they want to.  

	Many people who are serious about music have spent countless hours
	throughout their entire lives trying to hone their craft.  It's not
just
	a case of idly sitting around thinking about how great it would be
to
	get paid money to strum a few chords -- it's a very serious
investment
	of discipline on many different levels.  A lot of musicians still
	struggle to maintain that sort of dedication even while doing
non-music
	related jobs in order to make ends meet.  To suggest to someone in
this
	position that they might better serve their creative muse by giving
away
	music they have recorded in the name of liberating the creative
spirit,
	and then subsidize the expenditure by selling *t-shirts* of
themselves,
	is a dubious proposition to say the least.  

	The idea of "alternative merchaindising" (t-shirts, posters, etc)
works
	well for a name act which has a fixed identity, an existing fan
base,
	and/or "product value".  People buy shirts from these acts because
they
	want to identify themselves as fans in public, and be recognized as
fans
	by other people who are presumed to have a knowledge of the artist
in
	question.  In short, you can get a lot of milage out of wearing a
	Marilyn Manson T-shirt at a rock concert.  You'll get about 1/1000th
of
	a mile to the gallon wearing a "Joe Schmoe, Internet Loopist At
Large"
	shirt when you check your e-mail.  

	You're absolutely right that online marketing and distribution is
going
	to completely change the way music is bought and sold, and you're
right
	that it allows the artist to eliminate the middleman.  For those
very
	reasons, the idea that the artist should therefore start giving
their
	music away through this sort of medium is a pretty unsympathetic
point
	of view.

	Just about any band or artist web site nowadays has a page of sound
	bites online where people can download samples of the act's music. 
	Posting excerpts is the ideal way to go, since it gives a listener a
	taste of what the band has to offer; at the same time, if someone
wants
	the entire piece, they need to buy the recording.  The artist's
music is
	exposed to just as many people as it would be if it were given away
	online, but the artist isn't forfeiting their right to try and get a
	tangible return on a lifetime's worth of work -- to say nothing of a
	very real investment of finances in order to get the music recorded
in
	the first place.

	If someone is actually taking the time and expense to record and
	mass-produce (or even burn individual CD-Rs) of their music, the
least
	you can realistically expect is that they'll want to cover the cost
of
	doing so.  I realize that there are people (including some of you
here)
	who will and do go further, and give away these items in the name of
	sharing your music.  I sincerely applaud your approach, but I also
fully
	empathize with those who want (let alone *need*) to see a return on
	their investment.

	My experience has been that the average person who buys records (or
for
	that matter, many people who follow music seriously and are
themselves
	musically active) don't really have the first clue as to what the
	realities of trying to make a living in the arts is really like,
either
	in terms of the situational realities of the marketplace or in terms
of
	the psychological realities that an artist in that situation is
prone to
	dealing with on a day-to-day or minute-by-minute basis.

	So, for all those who have no doubt spent every bit as much time and
	dedication pursuing their music as has been detailed above, and are
	still perfectly happy to have music as a hobby, a side interest, or
a
	lark, more power to you.  

	But I'd like every person reading this to do one thing: Think about
your
	favorite musicians and artists.  Think about how their music has
	affected your lives.  Think about the investment of time and
resources
	that it must have taken for them to be able to bring these things
into
	being.  

	And then think about whether or not this music could realistically
have
	come into being if they hadn't pursued music professionally.

	--Andre LaFosse
	http://home.earthlink.net/~altruist

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From: Todd Quincy <tquincy@davitt-hanser.com>
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Subject: roland ms1 memory
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I've read a lot of discussion concerning samplers but never has anyone
mentioned the one I use which is a MS1 by Roland. I'm curious to know if
anyone has had any experience with this unit and what tircks or uses
they've discovered. 

also do you know a inexpensive place to buy the compact flash memory
cards.

tq

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jammanners and others (if this applies)

I have an ever changing song called 32 seconds (it used to be called 8
seconds) that just happened one time when i failed to set the echo by
the pressing the tap the second time. 

for the most part this song is spoken word, & noises. My band & i will
have our vocal & instrument mics within the jamman's effect loops. after
a while this thing will build and build and build. it's a great live
perfomance it you have mics in the audience.

Very john Cage like. 

just curious to see if anyone else has done this?

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 16 22:00:35 1999
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From: Hawkeye255@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:52:14 EST
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In a message dated 1/16/99 7:29:54 PM Central Standard Time, tquincy@davitt-
hanser.com writes:

<< I've read a lot of discussion concerning samplers but never has anyone
 mentioned the one I use which is a MS1 by Roland. I'm curious to know if
 anyone has had any experience with this unit and what tircks or uses
 they've discovered. 
 
 also do you know a inexpensive place to buy the compact flash memory
 cards.
 
 tq >>


I had a Roland MS-1.  I bought a 20 meg Ram Card from 'Santech' online.
Worked great.  It was my "in the field" digital recorder for trains, jets,
birds, etc. as well as a nifty little phrase sampler.

		Hawkeye

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From: Fmplautus@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:20:03 EST
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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Subject: Liberate Music!...Andre and Henry James
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A favorite quote from a story called The Middle Years by Henry James.  I
thought of it after reading Andre's thoughtful post about money and art.

"We work in the dark -- we do what we can -- we give what we have.  Our doubt
is our passion and our passion is our task.  The rest is the madness of art."

Best,
Kevin

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 16 23:03:37 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:02:58 -0700
From: J- <lobo27@boulder.quik.com>
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"The trouble with avant garde music is that it has lost its original
meaning and
now has as many rules and clichés as country or rock & roll. If in 50
years
time they will look back at the early 1980s, or whenever, and say that
was the
new avant garde era, that event must be avoided if we are to remain
true"

-William Bennett (Whitehouse)

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In a message dated 1/16/99 11:05:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lobo27@boulder.quik.com writes:

> "The trouble with avant garde music is that it has lost its original
>  meaning and
>  now has as many rules and clich=E9s as country or rock & roll. If in 50
>  years
>  time they will look back at the early 1980s, or whenever, and say that
>  was the
>  new avant garde era, that event must be avoided if we are to remain
>  true"

I don't get this statement... what was the original meaning?  There is gre=
at
music being done right now that is devoid of any cliches or rules... if yo=
u
dont wanna call it avant-garde, then call it something else.  I'm sure the
musicians won't care what you call it!

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 17 11:35:33 1999
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From: "MARK FRANO" <mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Hi-Fi Bugs
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:10:10 -0500
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Out of lurk closet I step. Please accept my greetings and gratitude for =
this wonderful place where 'birds of a feather flock together' to =
exchange their experiences in the loop dimention. It was not until I =
discovered the element of 'sonic chance' that is so much at the core of =
looping, that the power of music became apparent to me. Nothing that I =
can preconceive in my head can match the beauty of random but related =
sonic events blended together to mingle amongst themselves in a loop =
soup. With my minimal intervention, these things take on  a life of =
their own evolving into organic noises and textures that are =
transporting. We are onto something here!  Anyway, enough rejoicing. I =
am apart of an ambient trio based in Montpelier, Vermont called Hi-Fi =
Bugs. We are synth, guitar, bass and odd percussion. To this point our =
live performances have been extended uninterupted pieces that are 90 or =
so minutes in duration with no 'breaks' Certainly there are dynamic =
lulls but no interuption of the composition. I am curious if there are =
other loopers out there performing in this format. I am not sure our =
listeners are comfortable as they often applaud during lulls mistaking =
them for breaks between movements. Obviously we appreciate the =
aknowlegement but sometimes the piece is disturbed. Is it as simple =
asking for no applause. Feedback??






=20

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Out of lurk closet I step. Please =
accept my=20
greetings and gratitude for this wonderful place where 'birds of a =
feather flock=20
together' to exchange their experiences in the loop dimention. It was =
not until=20
I discovered the element of 'sonic chance' that is so much at the core =
of=20
looping, that the power of music became apparent to me. Nothing that I =
can=20
preconceive in my head can match the beauty of random but related sonic =
events=20
blended together to mingle amongst themselves in a loop soup. With my =
minimal=20
intervention, these things take on&nbsp; a life of their own evolving =
into=20
organic noises and textures that are transporting. We are onto something =

here!&nbsp; Anyway, enough rejoicing. I am apart of an ambient trio =
based in=20
Montpelier, Vermont called Hi-Fi Bugs. We are synth, guitar, bass and =
odd=20
percussion. To this point our live performances have been extended =
uninterupted=20
pieces that are 90 or so minutes in duration with no 'breaks' Certainly =
there=20
are dynamic lulls but no interuption of the composition. I am curious if =
there=20
are other loopers out there performing in this format. I am not sure our =

listeners are comfortable as they often applaud during lulls mistaking =
them for=20
breaks between movements. Obviously we appreciate the aknowlegement but=20
sometimes the piece is disturbed. Is it as simple asking for no =
applause.=20
Feedback??</FONT></DIV>
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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 17 12:23:51 1999
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
Subject: Re: Hi-Fi Bugs
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Maybe you could look at the audience participation/applause as part of the
whole listening experience. It IS live, afterall; just as long as they're
not shouting out "FREEBIRD!!!" 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 17 12:34:42 1999
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From: Todd Quincy <tquincy@davitt-hanser.com>
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Subject: RE: Hi-Fi Bugs
Date: 	Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:13:29 -0500
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yes we do the same, we are the background of the scences we play. which
is fine at times. But i can't help but think while i'm playing and
listening to 2 best friends laugh over beers that if i could just slap a
couple sets of headphones on their ears with the grooves and loops we're
laying down they would shit their pants. 

live performances are tough enough, but when your performance demands an
attentive & open minded audience it gets even harder.

i guess this is why light shows were combined with music.

by the way does anyone use lights with their live act. perhaps midi
sync'd to the drum machine or a live sence-a-beat system.

sorry to ramble but i have a dream that one day folks like us will be
able to set a jam live with each other on the internet and invite
willing listeners. i wouldn't be surprised if this type of system
already exists - and i just can't afford it.

tq
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	MARK FRANO [SMTP:mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com]
> Sent:	Sunday, January 17, 1999 11:10 AM
> To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject:	Hi-Fi Bugs
> 
> Out of lurk closet I step. Please accept my greetings and gratitude
> for this wonderful place where 'birds of a feather flock together' to
> exchange their experiences in the loop dimention. It was not until I
> discovered the element of 'sonic chance' that is so much at the core
> of looping, that the power of music became apparent to me. Nothing
> that I can preconceive in my head can match the beauty of random but
> related sonic events blended together to mingle amongst themselves in
> a loop soup. With my minimal intervention, these things take on  a
> life of their own evolving into organic noises and textures that are
> transporting. We are onto something here!  Anyway, enough rejoicing. I
> am apart of an ambient trio based in Montpelier, Vermont called Hi-Fi
> Bugs. We are synth, guitar, bass and odd percussion. To this point our
> live performances have been extended uninterupted pieces that are 90
> or so minutes in duration with no 'breaks' Certainly there are dynamic
> lulls but no interuption of the composition. I am curious if there are
> other loopers out there performing in this format. I am not sure our
> listeners are comfortable as they often applaud during lulls mistaking
> them for breaks between movements. Obviously we appreciate the
> aknowlegement but sometimes the piece is disturbed. Is it as simple
> asking for no applause. Feedback??
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 17 13:19:10 1999
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In a message dated 1/17/99 11:37:06 AM, mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com writes:

<<our live performances have been extended uninterupted pieces that are 90 or
so minutes in duration with no 'breaks' Certainly there are dynamic lulls but
no interuption of the composition. I am curious if there are other loopers out
there performing in this format. I am not sure our listeners are comfortable
as they often applaud during lulls mistaking them for breaks between
movements. Obviously we appreciate the aknowlegement but sometimes the piece
is disturbed. Is it as simple asking for no applause. Feedback??>>

Treat the "applause" as part of the piece instead of an external intrusion,
just as you would treat traffic noise, people moving around, or any of the
other "externals" that happen.

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In a message dated 1/17/99 12:36:09 PM, tquincy@davitt-hanser.com writes:

<<by the way does anyone use lights with their live act. perhaps midi

sync'd to the drum machine or a live sence-a-beat system.>>

Incorporated a light show with the recent recital I did for the Princeton Arts
Council and it worked great!  I had planned on getting together with the light
guy prior to the show to work on a flow chart and coordinate things but
decided to let him be the third improvisor and just follow what we (me and
percussion) did.  While we played I wasn't really aware of the role the lights
played and didn't use them as a means of inspiration (which would be a truly
integrated music/light show) but from post show reviews, he (Frank Jacobs,
"Anchor Productions") did a great job of following the evolution of the sound.
On a similar track, at home I'll sometimes fire up my iMac and the program
"Macthuga" (a "sense a beat" program) and using either the coputers' built in
mike or a direct input from the mixer, let Macthuga create it's visual show
from the audio it's recieving. I plan on the next solo gig to have it sitting
on stage, unobtrusively, just doing it's thing. The point? Oh, I don't know,
maybe it just looks cool and it's a "no brainer" (something I have no control
over and thus don't have to worry about :) ). - paul

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 17 15:31:51 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:57:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rev. Doubt-Goat" <dgoat@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hi-Fi Bugs
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93

---MARK FRANO <mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com> wrote:
To this point our live performances have been
extended uninterupted pieces that are 90 or so
minutes in duration with no 'breaks'
(snip)
I am not sure our listeners are comfortable as they
often applaud during lulls mistaking them for breaks
between movements. Obviously we appreciate the
aknowlegement but sometimes the piece is disturbed.
Is it as simple asking for no applause. Feedback??

Rev. D.G. replies:
90 min. pieces are not the performance "norm" so
audience confusion should not be unexpected. If
something other than standard practice is required of
the audience, then a small anouncement before hand
would not be out of order.

Also, be aware that you'll probably still get
interuptions from late-comers, people who were in the
restrooms, those who simply didn't listen or weren't
paying attention. Until you reach a certain level of
recognition where your audience already *knows* what
is required of them, you'll just have to deal with it.

I would suggest trying to incorporate the randomness
of the audience reactions into the work.

93

Rev. Doubt-GOat
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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93

---PMimlitsch@aol.com wrote:
> Treat the "applause" as part of the piece instead
of an external intrusion,
> just as you would treat traffic noise, people
moving around, or any of the
> other "externals" that happen.

Ah yes, this is called "playing off the cash
register" in the old days of jazz. A soloist would
respond to the "ca-ching" of the register at the bar
as a form of call and response instead of as an
intrusion or interuption. It's a real skill and
requires HUGE ears.

93
Da Goat
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
Subject: RE: Hi-Fi Bugs
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>i guess this is why light shows were combined with music.
>
>by the way does anyone use lights with their live act. perhaps midi
>sync'd to the drum machine or a live sence-a-beat system.

This makes me think of Ben Neill. He uses a "mutantrumpet" with which he
can 1) get the sounds of a regular trumpet. 2) get the sounds of a smaller
trumpet with a slide like a trombone 3) have midi control over a whole pile
of gear, including synth modules, samplers, the lights/projections and 4)
do other stuff I don't know about.

His "mutantrumpet" is pretty well documented, but I haven't been able to
find any tech info on the rest of his rack, so if anyone knows what he's
using and/or how he's using it, I'd sure like to know.

When I saw him last September (opening for TransGlobal Underground) he
wasn't controlling any lighting with the instrument (as far as I know), but
his website describes the "mutantrumpet"'s ability to do so.

For a better description than I've given, here's the url:
http://www.mercurious.com/ben-neill/

By the way, the set I saw him perform, as excellent as it was, was also
disrupted by a couple of over-zealous Natacha Atlas fans eagerly
anticipating TransGlobal's set. Neill took it all in stride...

Tim

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From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: RE: Hi-Fi Bugs
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On 1/17/99 Todd quincy said:
>
>i guess this is why light shows were combined with music.
>
>by the way does anyone use lights with their live act. perhaps midi
>sync'd to the drum machine or a live sence-a-beat system.
>

This past week FingerPaint performed for an art opening of a friend of
ours, Darryl Dardenne. People were wandering around looking at the
paintings and conversing as we played. It was fun to watch them looking and
ocassionally some would come and sit and pay attention to us.

We've also performed in a planetarium at Montgomery College. The stars are
twirling and we're twiddling knobs. Not a bad way to go.

Many people are looking for virtuosic instrumental displays or at least
people playing on the edge of thier skills. With what we do in FingerPaint
neither of these are important. We are boring to watch. Thus some type of
visual distraction is an aid to those audience members who need it.

Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

Shockwave audio featuring our newest release Primary Colors:Blue

                            www.fingerpaint.net  


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 18 02:38:24 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:21:34 -0600
From: Bobdog <psbuddha@texas.net>
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Patrick Smith wrote:

> We've also performed in a planetarium at Montgomery College. The stars are
> twirling and we're twiddling knobs. Not a bad way to go.
>
> Patrick
>

i once saw tangerine dream play a planetarium. gosh. i think i would be *very
* satisfied to get that kind of a gig.

bobdog

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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:28:27 +0200
From: Olivier <malhomme@vete.ucl.ac.be>
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<<On a completely different note, i was wondering if any of you loopists
have
been exploring yet another natural extension of looping: playing the
loops
by hand in an ensemble setting? >>

I did. Theere was a time were I had no looping device.
I used them my AKAI multitrack recorder to record and mix what would
become a loop. I had then to "manually loop" the whole. ie play
everything. That gave a quite different flavour (more organic?).
Anyway, The  jam man made me lazy. I don't do that anymore. Was better
but really time consuming, and definitely impossible to use on stage,
not to mention unsuited for improvisation.

Olivier Malhomme

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 18 09:53:54 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:33:29 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hi-Fi Bugs
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At 11:10 AM 1/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>       Anyway, enough rejoicing. I am apart of an ambient trio based in 
>Montpelier, Vermont called Hi-Fi Bugs. We are synth, guitar, bass and odd 
>percussion. To this point our live performances have been extended
>uninterupted  pieces that are 90 or so minutes in duration with no 'breaks'
>Certainly there  are dynamic lulls but no interuption of the composition. I
>am curious if there  are other loopers out there performing in this format.
>I am not sure our  listeners are comfortable as they often applaud during
>lulls mistaking them for  breaks between movements. Obviously we appreciate
>the aknowlegement but  sometimes the piece is disturbed. Is it as simple
>asking for no applause.  Feedback??    

Howdy,
	My trio has done 30-40 minute nonstop pieces to some of the same response.
What you can do is run a live audience mic into your looping device of
choice--and cough back to the same audience the things that they have just
done. Or, you could just try a piece with no dynamic lulls for 90 minutes
and not give them any room to applaud or distract you! Ha! Chances are that
would be relatively frightening to most!
	Seriously, I'd just suggest what many others on the list have: just go
with it. Hell, before the show, sample yourself in a monotone/robotic voice
saying "Thank you..." into your device and spit it back out whenever
there's applause. Wouldn't that be a kick?
Sincerely,
Jeff McLeod


           
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 18 10:49:17 1999
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From: SoundFNR@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:41:24 EST
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<< > "The trouble with avant garde music is that it has lost its original
 >  meaning and
 >  now has as many rules and clich=E9s as country or rock & roll. If in 5=
0
 >  years
 >  time they will look back at the early 1980s, or whenever, and say that
 >  was the
 >  new avant garde era, that event must be avoided if we are to remain
 >  true"
 
< I don't get this statement... what was the original meaning?  There is g=
reat
 music being done right now that is devoid of any cliches or rules... if y=
ou
 dont wanna call it avant-garde, then call it something else.  I'm sure th=
e
 musicians won't care what you call it!>

Avant Garde?  I'd have to say that the 'free improvised' music I have seen=
 
recently has been somewhat predictable in terms of the structure of 
the pieces, the way in which the players interact, and much of the 
content of the individual players. Although I've seen a couple of soloists
to whom this doesn't apply.

Seems to me it's possible to be 'avant garde' without being an innovator.

Is it possible to have music without rules? Perhaps the interest lies in
the way the rules mutate.

How many times does a loop go round before it gets to be
a cliche.

Andy Butler  
 
 
 
 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 18 13:27:47 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:12:44 -0500
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: murkie <murkie@panther.middlebury.edu>
Subject: Re: Hi-Fi Bugs
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At 11:10 AM 1/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>       Anyway, enough rejoicing. I am apart of an ambient trio based in 
>Montpelier, Vermont called Hi-Fi Bugs. We are synth, guitar, bass and odd 
>percussion. To this point our live performances have been extended
>uninterupted  pieces that are 90 or so minutes in duration with no 'breaks'
>Certainly there  are dynamic lulls but no interuption of the composition. I
>am curious if there  are other loopers out there performing in this format.
>I am not sure our  listeners are comfortable as they often applaud during
>lulls mistaking them for  breaks between movements. Obviously we appreciate
>the aknowlegement but  sometimes the piece is disturbed. Is it as simple
>asking for no applause.  Feedback??               

remember you're gigging in vermont ("the land where people clap between
movements of chmber pieces").

and where the heck is the loop-friendly venue in montpelier?!?!

keep me posted om when y'all play again.

m

=====================================================================
=                                                                   =
=         M  a  r   k      C  h  r  i  s  t  e  n  s  e  n          =
=     Cramped Quarters Studio / Jasperpottamus Music Publishing     =
=                  internet: murkie@middlebury.edu                  =
=          http://www.middlebury.edu/~mchriste/murkie.html          =
=                                                                   =
=====================================================================

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 18 18:30:26 1999
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From: MrBERWELL@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:22:21 EST
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In a message dated 1/18/99 10:50:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, SoundFNR@aol.com
writes:

> Avant Garde?  I'd have to say that the 'free improvised' music I have seen 
>  recently has been somewhat predictable in terms of the structure of 
>  the pieces, the way in which the players interact, and much of the 
>  content of the individual players. Although I've seen a couple of soloists
>  to whom this doesn't apply.
>  
>  Seems to me it's possible to be 'avant garde' without being an innovator.

It's possible to be avante garde whilst being a blatant immitator.  It's all a
matter of perception, but no one's pulling the wool over our eyes, now are
they?? 
If you live near NYC and want to see some "new" music live, email me, I can
make some recommendations.
-Jody

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 18 18:53:45 1999
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From: Jamie Lack <jlack@auran.com>
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Why not record the audience noises and play them back, integrating them
into the performance?

Jamie
jlack@auran.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 18 21:06:31 1999
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From: "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@earthlight.net>
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Subject: RE: Hi Fi Bugs Bugs
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:55:47 -0800
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Jamie Lack [mailto:jlack@auran.com] suggested:
> Why not record the audience noises and play them back,
> integrating them into the performance?

On the Eno/Manzanera "801 Live" album, the "Baby's On Fire" cut segues with
the audience's applause being fed through a flange process before turning
into a drone tone, from which "Diamond Head" is launched.

I always wanted to do that with a performance, to say nothing of wiring up
condenser mics round the club to pick up conversation and such (with of
course the obligatory notices to the audience, and a person to mix the mics
well enough to keep people wondering).

Stephen Goodman  -  It's... The Loop Of The Week!
EarthLight Studios  -  http://www.earthlight.net/Studios


Stephen Goodman  -  It's... The Loop Of The Week!
EarthLight Studios  -  http://www.earthlight.net/Studios

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 19 03:57:23 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:10:31 -0800
From: Andre LaFosse <altruist@earthlink.net>
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As something of a followup to the thread on art and money, there's a
very interesting story at Addicted to Noise
(http://www.addict.com/MNOTW/lofi/).  It details how Public Enemy has
severed ties with former label Def Jam, and are now preparing several
different "labels" through which they plan to release songs and albums
for free online.

Sounds suspiciously like history being made...

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 19 17:17:45 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:06:00 -0600 (CST)
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From: james rhodes <sharkey@texas.net>
Subject: San Antonio show @Taco Land Jan 19   
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Hello any list members in the area (you know who you are)
Jack Booted Thugs (sometimes called Theorem 5, depending on instrumentation
confuses me too..) will be playin Tues. Jan 19 at Taco Land at 11:00pm.(103
W. Grayson (210) 223-8406.
i as always will be looping and Stickin,,and hitting things
we will be joined this evening by a Duet from Germany "S/T" . they will
began playing at 9:45.. any local listmembers in the area, please come enjoy
a very special evening.

thanks

james  

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 19 17:37:28 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:24:21 -0800
From: Clifford Novey <clifsound@earthlink.net>
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Does anyone know if the EDP ships with version 5 of the software now?
I just ordered one on 1-17-99

Cliff

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 19 17:37:43 1999
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Hello, I just ordered an EDP from Sam Ash in Los Angeles and am
concerned to find out if I have paid too much or if the price was a good
one- I paid $636.36 for the unit and $108.04 for the foot controller- I
also picked up 2 of the 4mb SIMMs for $40, all prices plus tax.
Does anyone know if this is reasonable? I think it probably is but I saw
how some of the folks here at LD did a bulk order and got great deals-
I have 30 days to find a better price so if anyone has info please let
me know.
I was also trying to find out if the unit has room for 2 or 4 SIMM
modules. I bought 2 thinking it came loaded with 2 but I am not sure...
I am looking forward to interacting with everyone more ONCE I GET THE
THING!!!! hehe- It has not arrived yet but I am very excited indeed-
reading the article on David Torn in the recent Guitar Shop really
sealed the deal.
Can loops be saved on the EDP?? If not, how have some of you decided to
"save" your work?

Hopefully Looping SOON...

Clifford Novey

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 19 18:12:38 1999
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From: Hoover Alan <HooverA@tce.com>
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Subject: Digital recording
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:48:39 +0100
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I sent this message out yesterday, but don't think it posted due to local
server problems.   So, I will post it again...

Thanks
Alan


Does anybody on the list have any experience with the Aark 20/20, made by
Aardvark?  This is a 10-in, 10-out (full duplex for Win 95), 20 bit audio
interface to the PC.  It has 10 quarter inch phone plug inputs, and also 10
similar outputs.  24 bit resolution, 80MPS.  It retails for somewhere around
$500-600.

It seems to be good competition for the $1K Event Electronics Layla system.
The Aark 20/20 doesn't list the disclaimer that the Layla system does, where
you have to have an Intel Pentium in order for it to work.  Furthermore, the
Aark 20/20 claims compatibility with Sonic Foundry Soundforge, Cakewalk,
Cooledit Pro, and others, as does the Layla.

The Layla system includes Cool Edit Pro-Special Edition multitrack
recording/editing software, also includes Sonic Foundry's Sound Forge XP 4.0
graphic waveform editing/DSP effects software, plus Sonic Foundry's CD
Architect professional Redbook audio CD mastering software.

The price difference could be the included software that Layla has, but Aark
20/20 apparently doesn't. 

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From: "MARK FRANO" <mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:34:41 -0500
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Thanks for the many responses regarding my recent post about audience =
applause during loop performance. I guess my main concern is that the =
subtlety of quiet passages is often lost in live performance. It seems =
easy to hold an audiences attention when the sonics are dramatic and =
bold but when the piece turns towards nuance and minimalism things tend =
to get sticky. Its almost as if a live audience is uncomfortable with =
spacial loops to the point of nervous applause. Our greatest successes =
are when we are playing to an extremely attentive group focused on the =
sound. This is rare as chatter and external influences always seem to =
contribute to the sonic landscape. I don't want to come across as a =
demanding performer but I know the power of our music lies in its wide =
dynamic range-- delicate textures to corse bold blasts. Is looping too =
intimate for live settings? Are we too boring visually? I too wish =
everyone in the audience was wearing headphones. Too much seems to be =
sacrificed. Perhaps recording is our best direction. Feedback?

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks for the many responses =
regarding my=20
recent post about audience applause during loop performance. I guess my =
main=20
concern is that the subtlety of quiet passages is often lost in live=20
performance. It seems easy to hold an audiences attention when the =
sonics are=20
dramatic and bold but when the piece turns towards nuance and minimalism =
things=20
tend to get sticky. Its almost as if a live audience is uncomfortable =
with=20
spacial loops to the point of nervous applause. Our greatest successes =
are when=20
we are playing to an extremely attentive group focused on the sound. =
This is=20
rare as chatter and external influences always seem to contribute to the =
sonic=20
landscape. I don't want to come across as a demanding performer but I =
know the=20
power of our music lies in its wide dynamic range-- delicate textures to =
corse=20
bold blasts. Is looping too intimate for live settings? Are we too =
boring=20
visually? I too wish everyone in the audience was wearing headphones. =
Too much=20
seems to be sacrificed. Perhaps recording is our best direction.=20
Feedback?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Hi Clifford,
I just ordered my EDP today also.  The David Torn interview did it for me too (plus the fact that I've been a huge fan for years)!  Anyway, I ordered mine from Alto Music, somewhere in NY state.  I have Kim Flint of this list to thank for recommending them.  I paid $660 for BOTH the EDP AND the foot contoller, which is the best price I've found anywhere.  They have 20 EDP's on order, and they're expecting them to arrive this coming Monday -- or so I was told.  If you're interested, their number is 914-692-6922.  Ask for John.  And Kim, if you're reading this, thanks again!

Now, I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me what SIMMs are, and how easy or difficult they are to install for someone who knows very little about that sort of thing.

Steve Delgado
--

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:21:13   Clifford Novey wrote:
>Hello, I just ordered an EDP from Sam Ash in Los Angeles and am
>concerned to find out if I have paid too much or if the price was a good
>one- I paid $636.36 for the unit and $108.04 for the foot controller- I
>also picked up 2 of the 4mb SIMMs for $40, all prices plus tax.
>Does anyone know if this is reasonable? I think it probably is but I saw
>how some of the folks here at LD did a bulk order and got great deals-
>I have 30 days to find a better price so if anyone has info please let
>me know.
>I was also trying to find out if the unit has room for 2 or 4 SIMM
>modules. I bought 2 thinking it came loaded with 2 but I am not sure...
>I am looking forward to interacting with everyone more ONCE I GET THE
>THING!!!! hehe- It has not arrived yet but I am very excited indeed-
>reading the article on David Torn in the recent Guitar Shop really
>sealed the deal.
>Can loops be saved on the EDP?? If not, how have some of you decided to
>"save" your work?
>
>Hopefully Looping SOON...
>
>Clifford Novey
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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Yep.

Steve Delgado 
--

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:24:21   Clifford Novey wrote:
>Does anyone know if the EDP ships with version 5 of the software now?
>I just ordered one on 1-17-99
>
>Cliff
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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From: "Future Perfect" <artmusic@gte.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:08:41 -0500
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Chances are, 'spacial loops' DO make the audience uncomfortable. The
majority of listening audiences out there may not know how to listen to
music that demands their attention. I know from a lot of live shows that an
extremely attentive audience is very rare, and even still, many of them are
more likely to staring blankly at the sounds forced upon them than digging
your music as much as you do. Looping also may be extremely boring to watch
in this age of quick-edit MTV-isms. When playing live there are a lot of
sacrifices- you may not get a musically educated audience that 'understands'
you. The room may be noisy, there may not be a seated audience, etc. We
recently did a show at the Florida Aquarium that was wonderful- people
milling around, pretty noisy, but the setting was gorgeous. Few musicians
give up playing live because the audience doesn't act the way they want them
to. Use your surroundings to influence your loops, this includes the
audiences' reaction or non-reaction. Choose to perform in non-standard live
music settings, like an Aquarium or other museum. 'Modify' the dynamic range
in the performances according to the noise level in the room. Although it
would be interesting to see the reaction when someone asks the entire
audience to wear headphones (and worth the admission price alone!), in the
end, ask yourself why you play live. Enjoy the music, rather than the
audiences' reaction to the music. Don't give up live playing, just rethink
the way it is done.

Dave Eichenberger
*********************************************************************
'Future Perfect' - art music
guitars-loops-flutes-devices-voices
http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/




 Its almost as if a live audience is uncomfortable with spacial loops to the
point of nervous applause. Our greatest successes are when we are playing to
an extremely attentive group focused on the sound. This is rare as chatter
and external influences always seem to contribute to the sonic landscape. I
don't want to come across as a demanding performer but I know the power of
our music lies in its wide dynamic range-- delicate textures to corse bold
blasts. Is looping too intimate for live settings? Are we too boring
visually? I too wish everyone in the audience was wearing headphones. Too
much seems to be sacrificed. Perhaps recording is our best direction.
Feedback?

------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BE4400.A79681A0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1700"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Chances are, 'spacial loops' DO make the audience =
uncomfortable.=20
The majority of listening audiences out there may not know how to listen =
to=20
music that demands their attention. I know from a lot of live shows that =
an=20
extremely attentive audience is very rare, and even still, many of them =
are more=20
likely to staring blankly at the sounds forced upon them than digging =
your music=20
as much as you do. Looping also may be extremely boring to watch in this =
age of=20
quick-edit MTV-isms. When playing live there are a lot of sacrifices- =
you may=20
not get a musically educated audience that 'understands' you. The room =
may be=20
noisy, there may not be a seated audience, etc. We recently did a show =
at the=20
Florida Aquarium that was wonderful- people milling around, pretty =
noisy, but=20
the setting was gorgeous. Few musicians give up playing live because the =

audience doesn't act the way they want them to. Use your surroundings to =

influence your loops, this includes the audiences' reaction or =
non-reaction.=20
Choose to perform in non-standard live music settings, like an Aquarium =
or other=20
museum. 'Modify' the dynamic range in the performances according to the =
noise=20
level in the room. Although it would be interesting to see the reaction =
when=20
someone asks the entire audience to wear headphones (and worth the =
admission=20
price alone!), in the end, ask yourself why you play live. Enjoy the =
music,=20
rather than the audiences' reaction to the music. Don't give up live =
playing,=20
just rethink the way it is done. </FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT =
color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Dave Eichenberger</FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>
<P><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>*********************************************************=
************<BR>'Future=20
Perfect' - art music<BR>guitars-loops-flutes-devices-voices<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://home1.gte.net/artmusic/</A> </FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT><EM></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D460313803-20011999><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><EM>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Its almost as if a live audience is =
uncomfortable with=20
spacial loops to the point of nervous applause. Our greatest successes =
are when=20
we are playing to an extremely attentive group focused on the sound. =
This is=20
rare as chatter and external influences always seem to contribute to the =
sonic=20
landscape. I don't want to come across as a demanding performer but I =
know the=20
power of our music lies in its wide dynamic range-- delicate textures to =
corse=20
bold blasts. Is looping too intimate for live settings? Are we too =
boring=20
visually? I too wish everyone in the audience was wearing headphones. =
Too much=20
seems to be sacrificed. Perhaps recording is our best direction.=20
Feedback?</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 20 03:33:50 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:05:12 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
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One idea that I think works well is to talk to your audience beforehand and
explain what you are about to do a little bit. Maybe tell them a little bit
about the piece, or how you are creating it, or some interesting things
they might listen for. Then they know what to expect and maybe how to
react, and will be a little more educated about your music before they are
introduced to it. I think people will be much more engaged and pay more
attention that way, maybe even feel a little good about themselves when
they catch one of the things you mentioned, or feel they are getting it.

Or you could just enjoy the old trick of fooling them into thinking its the
end, and just as they start to clap, go into the really loud section that's
obviously the same piece. Smile wickedly when you do this.

kim


>     Thanks for the many responses regarding my  recent post about
>audience applause during loop performance. I guess my main  concern
>is that the subtlety of quiet passages is often lost in live  performance.
>It seems easy to hold an audiences attention when the sonics are  dramatic
>and bold but when the piece turns towards nuance and minimalism things
>tend to get sticky. Its almost as if a live audience is uncomfortable
>with  spacial loops to the point of nervous applause. Our greatest successes
>are when  we are playing to an extremely attentive group focused on the
>sound.
>This is  rare as chatter and external influences always seem to contribute
>to the sonic  landscape. I don't want to come across as a demanding performer
>but I know the  power of our music lies in its wide dynamic range-- delicate
>textures to corse  bold blasts. Is looping too intimate for live settings?
>Are we too boring  visually? I too wish everyone in the audience was wearing
>headphones. Too much  seems to be sacrificed. Perhaps recording is our best
>direction.  Feedback?


______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 20 03:33:20 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:25:12 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Just bought an EDP...
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At 2:21 PM -0800 1/19/99, Clifford Novey wrote:
>I was also trying to find out if the unit has room for 2 or 4 SIMM
>modules. I bought 2 thinking it came loaded with 2 but I am not sure...

It has room for 4 simms. It ships with 4 1MB simms (50 sec), to fully
upgrade you need to get 4 4MB simms (198 sec). Check the echoplex faq on
the web site, most of these questions are answered:

http://www.annihilist.com/loop/tools/echoplex/FAQ.html


>I am looking forward to interacting with everyone more ONCE I GET THE
>THING!!!! hehe- It has not arrived yet but I am very excited indeed-
>reading the article on David Torn in the recent Guitar Shop really
>sealed the deal.

damn dt, what did you tell these boys?  I guess I let my guitar shop
subscription lapse there....(didn't think I needed another drawing of of a
strat plugged into a marshall....;-)

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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At 12:25 AM -0800 1/20/99, Kim Flint wrote:
>(didn't think I needed another drawing of of a
>strat plugged into a marshall....;-)

Heresy! Burn him!


_________________________________________________
Chris Muir   |   cbm@well.com   |   Got moloko?  


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Kim,

Thank you for your response- I have to say it is a great thing to be able to
communicate with one of the developers of this instrument- the internet can be
a great thing...

If the unit ships with 4 1mb simms, could I replace 2 of them with 4mb simms
and leave 2 of the 1mb simms in there? I looked in the FAQ but it did not
address this specific point. The only reason I ask is because I bought 2 of
the 4mb simms at the time I bought the EDP- no biggie- if it works like a pc's
memory I'm ok- if not I will just get another pair of 4mb chips and begin my
journey with 198 seconds!

As far as what dt said- well, I have wanted a really good delay unit for some
time- one with a long delay time- I have always loved playing rhythmic/melodic
lines and hearing the harmonies and counterpoint etc. with stompbox type
delays- but it has never been a high priority- always seems to be something
else I need more (like food, and uh, insurance, and hmmm, let's see...)
Then 2 weeks ago I saw guitarist Mike Miller (who I had never heard before)
play a wonderful show with Chad Wakerman and Jimmy Johnson and he used a pair
of Lexicon Jam Mans VERY tastefully- building great intros and ending the
loopswhen the bass and drums came in- and speaking to him after the show I
decided to really look into it- (having burned out on my Porta One and
cassette tapes- theres nothing better than searching through that shoebox full
of multitrack tapes endlessly fast forwarding and rewinding to find that one
idea you KNOW you have in there somewhere...;)
Well, dt was very enthusiastic about the EDP and obviously had a lot of
experience with other delay/sample units including the Jam Man- he goes on in
detail about how deep the unit is and all of the options etc. and how
condusive it is for live situations- If you are interested I could scan the
article and make it available...or would I get into trouble doing that?

Oh well-
Thanks again-

Cliff Novey

Kim Flint wrote:

> At 2:21 PM -0800 1/19/99, Clifford Novey wrote:
> >I was also trying to find out if the unit has room for 2 or 4 SIMM
> >modules. I bought 2 thinking it came loaded with 2 but I am not sure...
>
> It has room for 4 simms. It ships with 4 1MB simms (50 sec), to fully
> upgrade you need to get 4 4MB simms (198 sec). Check the echoplex faq on
> the web site, most of these questions are answered:
>
> http://www.annihilist.com/loop/tools/echoplex/FAQ.html
>
> >I am looking forward to interacting with everyone more ONCE I GET THE
> >THING!!!! hehe- It has not arrived yet but I am very excited indeed-
> >reading the article on David Torn in the recent Guitar Shop really
> >sealed the deal.
>
> damn dt, what did you tell these boys?  I guess I let my guitar shop
> subscription lapse there....(didn't think I needed another drawing of of a
> strat plugged into a marshall....;-)
>
> kim
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
> kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
> http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

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Are these SIMMs available from a music store, or does one have to go to Radio Shack or some such place?  Also, are they easy to install?
--
>It has room for 4 simms. It ships with 4 1MB simms (50 sec), to fully
>upgrade you need to get 4 4MB simms (198 sec). 

>>reading the article on David Torn in the recent Guitar Shop really
>>sealed the deal.
>
>damn dt, what did you tell these boys?  

It's just that I never understood what he was doing before, or that there was a specific piece of gear available for it.  I confess to a staggering amount of ignorance about all things loop.

Steve Delgado




Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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don't forget the wah wah. strat into wah into marshall. yeah, that's the
ticket!! =-) PJ

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>Thank you for your response- I have to say it is a great thing to be able to
>communicate with one of the developers of this instrument- the internet can be
>a great thing...

you wouldn't think so if you were me and you got 3 or 4 mails a day from
random people saying something like "dude, where can I buy an echoplex?"
or even better, "how much are you selling jammans for?"  And those are the
mails from sane people....

>If the unit ships with 4 1mb simms, could I replace 2 of them with 4mb simms
>and leave 2 of the 1mb simms in there?

yes sir, you replace them in pairs. The pairs can be different sizes.

>I looked in the FAQ but it did not
>address this specific point.

ehem. well, you're right that one isn't exactly stated in the FAQ.

HOWEVER, (and here is where I get to *chide* someone, my favorite
pasttime...) it IS described in the manual, which is also available on the
LD site.....the FAQ isn't really supposed to duplicate the manual.....


>If you are interested I could scan the
>article and make it available...or would I get into trouble doing that?
>

sure, scan away. Probably we won't put it online while the magazine is
still on the rack..... ;-)

My philosophy on such things has gradually become: give magazine publisher
a reasonable opportunity to put it on their own website; If they don't (and
they probably won't....) we ask permission to put it on our site; after
they haven't bothered to reply we go ahead and put it up on our site for
them anyway; if they someday get around to putting it up afterall, we take
ours down and link to them, otherwise we leave it; when they sue me, we
release lots of press releases about the case and use the resulting fame
and noteriety to get lots more attention and hits on our web site and maybe
get on some talk shows, which I would enjoy a lot.

so sure, send it on in!
kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:25:23 -0800
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From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
Subject: Re: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
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>Or you could just enjoy the old trick of fooling them into thinking its the
>end, and just as they start to clap, go into the really loud section that's
>obviously the same piece. Smile wickedly when you do this.

March 23rd, 1792: Haydn's Symphony #94 ("The Surprise Symphony") premieres
in London.

It'd be great to have a time machine to check out the audience reaction on
THIS one! Or imagine the Haydn interview in the April 1792 issue of
"Today's Composer" where he explains how he came to feel the need for such
extremes of dynamic range; "...Well, they just weren't paying attention,
and I said to myself 'Joseph, you've got to wake those buggers up', and
started going through my 'orchestral stab' samples, and next thing you
know..."

Live audiences have always been prone to distraction. It's only natural to
look around and check out a room full of interesting-looking strangers at a
public gathering, especially in the hyper-social setting of a nightclub or
bar (or a concert hall, or an art gallery, or the mall, etc.). It would be
NICE if everyone would sit and listen intently, but it's probably not going
to happen very often, and this is not always an indication that the music
being presented is in itself boring or that the band's presentation is not
worth watching. It's just that there's a lot going on in the room, and
that's just part of live performance...
One advantage we have over Haydn is that we can sell CD's at our live
shows, so that some of the audience can take the music HOME and put on
those headphones... We can take advantage of two very different means of
presenting the music, live AND recorded, and each can enrich the other.

Maybe Hi Fi Bugs could start off with a few pieces of a more conventional
length/dynamic range to hook the crowd, and THEN preface the longer ones
with the sort of communication/explanation Kim wrote of once the room has
settled in a bit.

Best wishes,

Tim


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--

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:54:20   Kim Flint wrote:
>
>>Thank you for your response- I have to say it is a great thing to be able to

>>communicate with one of the developers of this instrument- the internet can be
>>a great thing...
>
>you wouldn't think so if you were me and you got 3 or 4 mails a day from
>random people saying something like "dude, where can I buy an echoplex?"

Hey Dude,
Like thanks for telling me where I can buy one of them things.  Whoa, this means I can play the riff from Smoke On the Water and jam along with it!

Steve Delgado


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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Subject: RE: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
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What you are describing is sometimes seen in classical symphony =
performance,
particularly if the performance is some obscure work.=A0 Mostly in =
classical
performance, the audience tend to hold back more out of respect, =
politeness
(fear of fauxpas?), waiting for "cues" from someone in the audience who
displays the confidence to discern when the pauses between movements =
are and
when the end of the symphony is.=A0 Then, applause erupts properly.=A0 =
In
symphonies, the written program indicates movements, but classical =
music is
very structured.=A0=20
=A0
In the more obscure symphonic works, improper applause sometimes starts =
to
break out sporadically, but is quickly quelled when the bulk of the =
audience
doesn't respond in kind.=A0 Most classical music goers seem to have the
learned the capability of being embarrassed.=A0 From what you are =
describing,
it doesn't sound like a significant portion of the audience has spent =
much
time watching classical symphonies.=A0 I think you will just have to =
live with
this until your audience comes to know your music better or you somehow
explain it to them, verbally or with a written program.=A0 They =
probably
appreciate what you are trying to do, and maybe would like a little =
guidance
from you.=A0 Good luck!

-----Original Message-----
From: MARK FRANO [mailto:mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 8:35 PM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance


Thanks for the many responses regarding my recent post about audience
applause during loop performance. I guess my main concern is that the
subtlety of quiet passages is often lost in live performance. It seems =
easy
to hold an audiences attention when the sonics are dramatic and bold =
but
when the piece turns towards nuance and minimalism things tend to get
sticky. Its almost as if a live audience is uncomfortable with spacial =
loops
to the point of nervous applause. Our greatest successes are when we =
are
playing to an extremely attentive group focused on the sound. This is =
rare
as chatter and external influences always seem to contribute to the =
sonic
landscape. I don't want to come across as a demanding performer but I =
know
the power of our music lies in its wide dynamic range-- delicate =
textures to
corse bold blasts. Is looping too intimate for live settings? Are we =
too
boring visually? I too wish everyone in the audience was wearing =
headphones.
Too much seems to be sacrificed. Perhaps recording is our best =
direction.
Feedback?

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Anyway, I ordered mine from Alto Music, somewhere in NY state.  
>I have Kim Flint of this list 
>to thank for recommending them.  I paid $660 for BOTH the EDP AND the foot 
>contoller, which is the best price I've found anywhere.  They have 20 EDP's 
>on order, and they're expecting them to arrive this coming Monday -- or so 
>I was told.  If you're interested, their number is 914-692-6922.  Ask for 
>John.  And Kim, if you're reading this, thanks again!

I stopped by Alto Music yesterday ( looking for my much needed footpedal...)
and spoke with John about the EDP orders - He's doing his best to make sure
they arrive to his store soon so he can ship them before he leaves for NAMM.
Apparently Gibson is in the midst of moving warehouses or something like
that and that's why there's a delay. He mentioned that because of this list
Alto Music is the single largest seller of EDP's in the US & that he bought
all of the units that Gibson currently had available! 

I think I give my Loopers Delight 2 CD so he has an idea about what all of
these devices are being used for...


peace,

jmw

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In a message dated 1/20/99 9:15:18 AM Central Standard Time,
evening@ulster.net writes:

<< I think I give my Loopers Delight 2 CD so he has an idea about what all of
 these devices are being used for...
 
 
 peace,
 
 jmw
  >>

Good PR goes a long way.

hawkeye

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From: "Julio Moreno" <juliomoreno@bahianet.com.br>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re:  Concerned about Live Performance...and...
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:34:14 -0200
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i been playing bars and night clubs ( included strip shows), also big
arenas with dance bands, rock bands, cover bands and experimental bands...i
just learn that most important thing is: there man waiting for women and
women waiting for man, others are just waiting for drugs and a few are
concerned about musicians and perfomance.The people just want a happy
enviroment...i learn to be carefull with minor keys...you can play 1 hour
in Cm, you make the audience go down etc. Happy enviroment to find laugh,
relax, sex, relashionship, friendship etc.Santana always check the groove
looking at the women in the audience, the way they react is a important
parameter for his rhythm aproach and futures perfomances ( i think he looks
others "parts" to hahahah!)...anyway rhythm transitions between songs are
very important too. When you play at a night club there diferents "times"
into the whole night : before the first beer...after the trird...the end of
night ( after a various whiskies) seems to be the most wonderfull time to
deep feelings stuff ...some people "needs" to talk loud when the music is
going ( be comprensive...you are doing a social service to
hahaha)...ok...just a few statments for the loop comunity from  a south
american musician. Good health and music for everybody!!!
Julio.
----------
> From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject: Re: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
> Date: Quarta-feira, 20 de Janeiro de 1999 13:25
> 
> >Or you could just enjoy the old trick of fooling them into thinking its
the
> >end, and just as they start to clap, go into the really loud section
that's
> >obviously the same piece. Smile wickedly when you do this.
> 
> March 23rd, 1792: Haydn's Symphony #94 ("The Surprise Symphony")
premieres
> in London.
> 
> It'd be great to have a time machine to check out the audience reaction
on
> THIS one! Or imagine the Haydn interview in the April 1792 issue of
> "Today's Composer" where he explains how he came to feel the need for
such
> extremes of dynamic range; "...Well, they just weren't paying attention,
> and I said to myself 'Joseph, you've got to wake those buggers up', and
> started going through my 'orchestral stab' samples, and next thing you
> know..."
> 
> Live audiences have always been prone to distraction. It's only natural
to
> look around and check out a room full of interesting-looking strangers at
a
> public gathering, especially in the hyper-social setting of a nightclub
or
> bar (or a concert hall, or an art gallery, or the mall, etc.). It would
be
> NICE if everyone would sit and listen intently, but it's probably not
going
> to happen very often, and this is not always an indication that the music
> being presented is in itself boring or that the band's presentation is
not
> worth watching. It's just that there's a lot going on in the room, and
> that's just part of live performance...
> One advantage we have over Haydn is that we can sell CD's at our live
> shows, so that some of the audience can take the music HOME and put on
> those headphones... We can take advantage of two very different means of
> presenting the music, live AND recorded, and each can enrich the other.
> 
> Maybe Hi Fi Bugs could start off with a few pieces of a more conventional
> length/dynamic range to hook the crowd, and THEN preface the longer ones
> with the sort of communication/explanation Kim wrote of once the room has
> settled in a bit.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Tim
> 

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From: "Wordsman, Lee" <LWordsman@PIRNIE.COM>
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So, I'm sitting here in my cubical doing my job.  It's noisy around me so I
listen to music to dull the distractions.  I've just received my LD v.2 in
the mail (thanks to Matt's excellent client service) so of course that is
what I'm listening to.   Unfortunately, I'm now having trouble focussing on
my work.  Instead, I'm thinking "oh, I could add that approach to what I've
been doing and move into a new direction with my own loops "  when I should
be trying to minimize nutrient loadings from a wastewater treatment plant.
Even as I type this note, I piece together how some of the pad swells are
achieved on the guitar and wish I was at home ready to begin another looping
experiment.   This collection is certainly fuel to fire my creative juices.


THANX! to Matt and Kim and all the folks represented on the LD v2.  In
business people always say "It's nice to put name to face" when meeting
someone who you've only ever spoken to over the phone.  In this case, it's
nice to put name to music.  It gives a different context to names and
thoughts that are shared between us on this list.   Although, I have to
admit that for some strange reason, when I keep being reminded of Bill
Murray in Stripes when he says "Lee Harvey! You are a madman! When you stole
that cow? And your friend tried to make it with the cow? I wanna party with
you." ; } 


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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:32:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: Jim Carter <Jim.Carter@bristol.ac.uk>
To: list server loopers delight <loopers-delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Applause, Marshalls and Footpedals
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In response to some rather interesting threads I
really have to add my thoughts:

1) - if someone feels the need to applaud during a performance
I am usually so grateful that I'm prepared to stop and let them
get on with it (and thank them for their trouble).

2) - before Christmas I played a gig with a few friend performing
"country rock" armed with nothing but a guitar (not Fender), 
bottle neck, volume pedal and Marshall. This felt very "naked"
but exposing myself like that in public was a bit of a buzz
(mainly due to playing slide on a guitar with too low an action).

3) - does anyone want to buy an EDP footcontroller. Never gigged,
in fact only taken out of the house twice. 


Jim Carter
e-mail jim.carter@bris.ac.uk

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From: "Javier Miranda V." <gnominus@earthling.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Just bought an EDP...
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:58:27 -0800
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Article?  Magazine?  What article?  What magazine?  What website?

-Bought an EDP too
-J

-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Flint [mailto:kflint@annihilist.com]
Sent: Wednesday 20 January 1999 3:54 AM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Just bought an EDP...

>If you are interested I could scan the
>article and make it available...or would I get into trouble doing that?
>

sure, scan away. Probably we won't put it online while the magazine is
still on the rack..... ;-)

My philosophy on such things has gradually become: give magazine publisher
a reasonable opportunity to put it on their own website; If they don't (and
they probably won't....) we ask permission to put it on our site; after
they haven't bothered to reply we go ahead and put it up on our site for
them anyway; if they someday get around to putting it up afterall, we take
ours down and link to them, otherwise we leave it; when they sue me, we
release lots of press releases about the case and use the resulting fame
and noteriety to get lots more attention and hits on our web site and maybe
get on some talk shows, which I would enjoy a lot.

so sure, send it on in!
kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 20 12:32:45 1999
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From: neato@pipeline.com
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anyone using, or have some hands on info($?) about the new lexicon guitar
processor:

"The JamMan is part of the new Lexicon MPX G2
It's a guitar processor with lots of immitations of old stuff like MXR
compressors (blue and red), Univibes, Tubescreamer, reverbs, delays,
the JamMan, etc, etc."( fr. the effects newsgroup)

cheers

                                all my mistakes were once acts of genius
                                                      neato@pipeline.com


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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:18:58 -0500
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Ed Drake <ejmd@erols.com>
Subject: Re: lexicon mpx g2
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My fellow loopers, neato@pipeline.com said:

>anyone using, or have some hands on info($?) about the new lexicon guitar
>processor:
>
>"The JamMan is part of the new Lexicon MPX G2
>It's a guitar processor with lots of immitations of old stuff like MXR
>compressors (blue and red), Univibes, Tubescreamer, reverbs, delays,
>the JamMan, etc, etc."( fr. the effects newsgroup)
>

I have not had a chance to try the MPX G2, but here is a message that Bob
Sellon from Lexicon sent to me recently regarding this item:

>By the way, did you get a chance to check out Lexicon's MXP G2? Thats the
>product I just got done with. I'm really pleased with how it ended up. It
>includes a "JamMan" algorithm. It only supports a single loop and the box only
>has 20 seconds of memory but combined with the other stuff the box can do,
>it's
>pretty amazing. I even included a hook through the MIDI Maps to use program
>change messages to control the loop. And MIDI clock is supported.

>One of the neat things about this system (and the MPX 1) is the way the tempo
>system is constructed. You can syncronize bunches of stuff to the tempo (LFOs,
>delays, flanges, etc..) and this rolls over into the JamMan stuff. You
>can, for
>instance, have a flange perfectly syncronized to a loop. The ability to pitch
>shift is also real nice; you can use it to put a bass line on your loop,
>etc...
>I might eventually try to move the multi loop thing over to the product but it
>would have to replace the reverb algorithm that is normally available when
>looping (looping is done in the Delay block). Still, that would free up the
>delay block so it might still be interesting.

Hope this is helpful!
Ed


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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:35:24 EST
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In a message dated 1/20/99 11:48:59 AM, Julio wrote:

>i been playing bars and night clubs ( included strip shows), also big
>
>arenas with dance bands, rock bands, cover bands and experimental bands...i
>
>just learn that most important thing is:....
Hey, Julio, thanks! a most enjoyable piece of wisdom and a great reminder of
what's generally regarded on planet Earth as one of the "primary" functions of
music (and dare I say musicians?). I've been grinning over this all day!
(...but, now back to outer space--have delay, will travel;;))
dpc

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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:05:06 -0600
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From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
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	While I certainly enjoy the studio sessions that we've done with looping
and our other experiments, I really feel that (for us, at least...) live
performance is where it's at. Our music is so in the moment (complete
improvisation...) and our playing style so violent at times (frightening
some audience members...oh well, what can one do?) that the live situation
is too fun to give up.
	I wonder about what venues are better for improvising and experimental
groups and individuals. The bar scene has definitely been less that
wonderful for us, while fesitvals and more intimate settings have been
great. No matter what, however, there's always someone there who enjoys it
and makes a point to say so. That always makes it worthwhile--even if most
folks seem to be preoccupied with other things during the performance.

Jeff McLeod
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

At 08:34 PM 1/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>    Thanks for the many responses regarding my  recent post about audience
>applause during loop performance. I guess my main  concern is that the
>subtlety of quiet passages is often lost in live  performance. It seems
>easy to hold an audiences attention when the sonics are  dramatic and bold
>but when the piece turns towards nuance and minimalism things  tend to get
>sticky. Its almost as if a live audience is uncomfortable with  spacial
>loops to the point of nervous applause. Our greatest successes are when  we
>are playing to an extremely attentive group focused on the sound. This is 
>rare as chatter and external influences always seem to contribute to the
>sonic  landscape. I don't want to come across as a demanding performer but
>I know the  power of our music lies in its wide dynamic range-- delicate
>textures to corse  bold blasts. Is looping too intimate for live settings?
>Are we too boring  visually? I too wish everyone in the audience was
>wearing headphones. Too much  seems to be sacrificed. Perhaps recording is
>our best direction.  Feedback? 

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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:33:26 -0500
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Ed Drake <ejmd@erols.com>
Subject: My EDP cuts in abruptly on volume pedal swells
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Hi Loopers,

I've recently noticed that when I try to swell the volume on the beginning
of a loop on my EDP, you don't hear the whole swell, the sound just cuts on
at a certain point, maybe when it hits an audio threshold(?). I have the
threshold parameter set to 0 and when I hit record the EDP does start
recording instantly but the audio still cuts in abruptly not gradually
swelling in. I seem to remember in the early days of Looper's Delight
someone, maybe Andre LaFosse(?), had a problem with this, and since I
didn't have an EDP at that time I don't remember now what the solution
was/is. I don't have time to search the website right now so I thought
someone here might comment or have some suggestions until I get time to
look around.
Thanks in advance!
Ed


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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:41:22 -0800
From: Clifford Novey <clifsound@earthlink.net>
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Greetings-

Thanks for the info Kim- I found 4mb 30 pin simms(parity, shouldn't
matter, right?- I'll look in the manual!! ;)
today for about $16 each so I bought 4 of 'em- I will be ready!

Someone wrote-

I stopped by Alto Music yesterday ( looking for my much needed
footpedal...)
and spoke with John about the EDP orders - He's doing his best
to make sure
they arrive to his store soon so he can ship them before he
leaves for NAMM.
Apparently Gibson is in the midst of moving warehouses or
something like
that and that's why there's a delay.

I spoke with my shop today regarding my order's status and he said it
would take about a week to get mine because they were changing
warehouses AND distributors- I also saw that someone mentioned that Alto
music had ordered all that was left- I hope there is one left for
ME!!!   ;^0

P.S. i will have the scanned article by the end of the week-

Cliff

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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:10:44 -0800
From: Clifford Novey <clifsound@earthlink.net>
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Ok, I looked in the manual in the section on memory and it states that
one of the requirements is that the memory have 120ns access time or
better-
I just bought 4 simms and the package has 60ns written on it- now I am
worried that they may not work properly but I am not sure if the 60ns
written on the label refers to the access time or not- anyone have a
clue?

Oops, ok, I just called the store and they said that the 60ns refers to
the speed or refresh rate of the chip itself- so, if the access time
needs to be 120ns and the chip refreshes at 60ns- then the 60ns chips
exceed the requirement- the chip will refresh and be available for
access every 60ns- twice as fast as the minimum requirement-

Just thought someone might find that interesting!

Cliff

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From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
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ola all.......just watched the movie "smoke-signals" a nice flick.....the
final music in the movie was wonderful so i paid close attention to the
credits and lo and behold after the gaffers and the electritions there was the
catagory "looping group" after which was listed several names then the list of
other musical contributors.....they are coming out of the
closet!.........michael

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Is there a secure way to order the Loopers-Delight cd 2? Also, is the
first cd still available? The order page is not encrypted and I kind of
hesitate...

Cliff

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To all,
	I think a mixture of looping and poetry, or looping with small theater pieces
(vignettes) would make a great program.   I'm working on that very idea at the
moment.  And, of course, a light show to go along with it.  I'll let you know
how it turns out.  Ducking great masses of flying vegetables or whatever...

Hawkeye

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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:26:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Randy Jones <ranjones@yahoo.com>
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Send me the money. I'll take care of you.

randy jones



---Clifford Novey <clifsound@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Is there a secure way to order the Loopers-Delight cd 2? Also, is the
> first cd still available? The order page is not encrypted and I kind
of
> hesitate...
> 
> Cliff
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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In a message dated 01/20/1999 10:20:21 PM, Nemoguitt writ thusly:

>just watched the movie "smoke-signals" a nice flick.....the
>final music in the movie was wonderful so i paid close attention to the
>credits and lo and behold after the gaffers and the electritions there
>was the
>catagory "looping group" after which was listed several names then the
>list of
>other musical contributors.....they are coming out of the
>closet!.........michael
i's pretty sure that those're the folks who stick the non-real-time dialogue
into the picture.
best,
dt

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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:08:05 PST
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I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices 
can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am specifically
interested in exploiting that device, but any generic technique
ideas are of interest.

Bob




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 21 02:38:55 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:36:24 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Mister McKnight <gonzo@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: a few other thoughts- no loop content
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What are the musical rules to avant garde music? I'm afraid I just
don't know what this is...


At 10:41 AM 1/18/99 EST, you wrote:
>
>
><< > "The trouble with avant garde music is that it has lost its original
> >  meaning and
> >  now has as many rules and clich=E9s as country or rock & roll. If in 50
> >  years
> >  time they will look back at the early 1980s, or whenever, and say that
> >  was the
> >  new avant garde era, that event must be avoided if we are to remain
> >  true"
>=20
>< I don't get this statement... what was the original meaning?  There is=
 great
> music being done right now that is devoid of any cliches or rules... if=
 you
> dont wanna call it avant-garde, then call it something else.  I'm sure the
> musicians won't care what you call it!>
>
>Avant Garde?  I'd have to say that the 'free improvised' music I have seen=
=20
>recently has been somewhat predictable in terms of the structure of=20
>the pieces, the way in which the players interact, and much of the=20
>content of the individual players. Although I've seen a couple of soloists
>to whom this doesn't apply.
>
>Seems to me it's possible to be 'avant garde' without being an innovator.
>
>Is it possible to have music without rules? Perhaps the interest lies in
>the way the rules mutate.
>
>How many times does a loop go round before it gets to be
>a cliche.
>
>Andy Butler =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 21 02:44:38 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:38:54 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Loopers cd
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At 07:23 PM 1/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Is there a secure way to order the Loopers-Delight cd 2? Also, is the
>first cd still available? The order page is not encrypted and I kind of
>hesitate...
>
>Cliff

Cliff,
	And hesitate you SHOULD! I've recently been a victim of hacking and have
had nearly $200 whacked onto my check card. You definitely should use a
browser support 128 bit encryption and ONLY order from secure sites. Even
then, I'm STILL worried after being hacked! Good luck. Just thought I'd
post this warning for all the online music shoppers!
Sincerely,
Jeff McLeod
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 21 04:43:21 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:28:57 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Just bought an EDP...
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At 3:21 AM -0800 1/20/99, Esteban Delgado wrote:
>Are these SIMMs available from a music store, or does one have to go to
>Radio Shack or some such place?  Also, are they easy to install?

you should be able to get them from any place that sells computer memory.
Installing is just like in a computer, you should have no trouble finding
someone to do it if you don't feel comfortable with that. It's easy though,
they just plug into the sockets on the PCB.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 21 04:43:35 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:25:47 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: My EDP cuts in abruptly on volume pedal swells
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>Hi Loopers,
>
>I've recently noticed that when I try to swell the volume on the beginning
>of a loop on my EDP, you don't hear the whole swell, the sound just cuts on
>at a certain point, maybe when it hits an audio threshold(?). I have the
>threshold parameter set to 0 and when I hit record the EDP does start
>recording instantly but the audio still cuts in abruptly not gradually
>swelling in. I seem to remember in the early days of Looper's Delight
>someone, maybe Andre LaFosse(?), had a problem with this, and since I
>didn't have an EDP at that time I don't remember now what the solution
>was/is. I don't have time to search the website right now so I thought
>someone here might comment or have some suggestions until I get time to
>look around.

Seems like you are encountering the software noise gate we have in the loop
path, which is supposed to be very unobtrusive. Andre was having a similar
problem once upon a time. Andre's complaint had to do with the old
Loop3.3.2 software, where the gate threshold was set too high, so it was
much too obvious and irritating. In the current software we set it much
lower, where it shouldn't be obvious now. If you are hearing it, I think
maybe you have the gains set a bit off. Try turning the input up a bit (but
not enough to clip!) and the output down to compensate. Ideally, you should
have no trouble with volume swells cutting in like that. The gate threshold
should be far below usual signal levels.

Since I *know* you're gonna ask, the gate is there to serve two purposes.
One is so you can leave Overdub on (or have it in delay mode) without
normally small system noises building up to a huge level in the loops. The
second reason is for Undo. If you have left Overdub on, we use the gate
threshold to tell if you are actually playing something into the loop. If
you are not, we want to stay in the same memory rather than recording into
new memory. That way, when you press Undo it takes away something you meant
to record into the loop, rather than some little bit of noise that you were
not aware was being recorded. This makes Undo much more predictable and
easier to use than it otherwise would be. (this is in the FAQ, BTW :-)

again, try adjusting the in/out levels to a better spot.

hope this helps,
kim



______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:01:36 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Loopers cd
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>At 07:23 PM 1/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Is there a secure way to order the Loopers-Delight cd 2? Also, is the
>>first cd still available? The order page is not encrypted and I kind of
>>hesitate...
>>
>>Cliff
>
>Cliff,
>	And hesitate you SHOULD! I've recently been a victim of hacking and
>have
>had nearly $200 whacked onto my check card. You definitely should use a
>browser support 128 bit encryption and ONLY order from secure sites. Even
>then, I'm STILL worried after being hacked! Good luck. Just thought I'd
>post this warning for all the online music shoppers!

And even with secure 128bit encryption, the dude at the shoe store can
still copy down your card number and buy himself a new stereo. Oh the
paranoia! I had over $2000 charged on my phone card for international calls
all over the world one day. By a nefarious hacker? no, just some guy
looking over my shoulder and selling the # at the airport...(phone company
reversed it, naturally)

Really, it's best to move to a shack in Montana.

or maybe apply statistical probabilities to your worries.

or just send Matt a check in the mail. that's safe. isn't it?

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


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i used to feed a jamman into a digitech looper and then speed or slow down
snippets of the loop. conversely, you could feed a slowed or sped up loop into
the jamman and then reverse the whole mess. fun, fun, fun!!! pj

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From: Thomas Rupolo <TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: Just bought an EDP...
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:36:18 -0500
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	>...the unit ships with 4 1mb simms...

	It does?  That's great for new EDP owners.  I remember the days
I thought that 12.5 seconds of looping time (or 91.4 second loops) was
pure luxury.

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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:52:01 +0200
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From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: Re: dual loop technique?
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On 1/20/99 Bob Campbell wrote:

>I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices
>can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am specifically
>interested in exploiting that device, but any generic technique
>ideas are of interest.

Well to some degree this would depend on the music that you are creating.
The obvious would be to lay down bass lines on one and perhaps harmonies on
the others, drum tracks, etc on the other and then solo over it.

In FingerPaint we are concerned with creating ambient soundscapes,
Frequently we have four or more looping devices going at one time. Seldom
are they synced ion any fashion. Rather they tend to be of different
unspecific lengths. Then in the words of Buckminster Fuller we "allow the
information to brush against one another."  We may then play over top of
this or leave it as is.

This is also an approach that Eno has frequently used on his "sound
installations", with the exception that Eno uses various lengths of
prerecorded tapes and tape machines. Thus his "loops" can be very very
long. At times as long as 30 minutes. Listen to the "Shotuv Assembly" by
Eno for an illustration of this.

You can also set your Jam Man in delay mode and have decaying long delays
brushing against one another. Personally I do not like to set the feed back
level too high in this scenario since the drop in sound volume is quite
drastic in the jam man with very high repeats. I suspect this is one of the
major advantages of the TC 2290's that Fripp loves to use. I've yet to
experiment with this on my rather new Echoplex.

And then of course you can combine one machine in loop mode and one in
delay mode. My partner Steve Geest loves to use this approach. On the first
Looper's CD we were both using this approach with two jam men each to
create the piece "Sirens of Titan."

Finally do not forget the multiple loops functions available to you. This
can lead to many interesting results in the above configurations. Although
it can be challenging to come up with equally interesting loops when you
are locked in by the first loop length.

So play with your machines, don't forget to investigte the "fade" mode
available to you if you use MIDI with your jam men.

And most important in your looping education, immediately purchase your
copy of Looper's CD # 2 ( and number one when ever it is available) and
hear what other's on this list are doing. Then dive off and play.

Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

Shockwave audio featuring our newest release Primary Colors:Blue

                            www.fingerpaint.net  


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From: "Julio Moreno" <juliomoreno@bahianet.com.br>
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----------
> From: Bob Campbell <astropulse@hotmail.com>
> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject: dual loop technique?
> Date: Quinta-feira, 21 de Janeiro de 1999 05:08
> 
> 
> I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices 
> can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am specifically
> interested in exploiting that device, but any generic technique
> ideas are of interest.
> 
> Bob
> 
>Hi Bob! im playing live with a power trio format with a Paradis without
sync...i been thinking to use the brother-sync feature with other guy in
the band who plays sax,didgeridoos and other weird stuff.The idea is :when
i control the lenght of the loop, sometimes using the beat-sync feature ,
he can play freely and change instruments without worried about...and
viceversa: when he controls, i can put lots of guitars just watchin to the
marshall  going feedback and noises...This idea its not on the road yet,
but i think its not imposible! sorry about my english...
Julio Moreno.

> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: "Julio Moreno" <juliomoreno@bahianet.com.br>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Fw: Concerned about Live Performance...and...
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----------
> From: Julio Moreno <juliomoreno@bahianet.com.br>
> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject: Re:  Concerned about Live Performance...and...
> Date: Quarta-feira, 20 de Janeiro de 1999 14:34
> 
> i been playing bars and night clubs ( included strip shows), also big
> arenas with dance bands, rock bands, cover bands and experimental
bands...i
> just learn that most important thing is: there man waiting for women and
> women waiting for man, others are just waiting for drugs and a few are
> concerned about musicians and perfomance.The people just want a happy
> enviroment...i learn to be carefull with minor keys...you can play 1 hour
> in Cm, and make the audience go down etc. Happy enviroment to find laugh,
> relax, sex, relashionship, friendship etc.Santana always check the groove
> looking at the women in the audience, the way they react is a important
> parameter for his rhythm aproach and futures perfomances ( i think he
looks
> others "parts" too hahahah!)...anyway rhythm transitions between songs
are
> very important too. When you play at a night club there diferents "times"
> into the whole night : before the first beer...after the trird...the end
of
> night ( after a various whiskies) seems to be the most wonderfull time to
> deep feelings stuff ...some people "needs" to talk loud when the music is
> going ( be comprensive...you are doing a social service too
hahaha)...ok...just a few statments for the loop comunity from  a south
> american musician. Good health and music for everybody!!!
> Julio.
> ----------
> > From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
> > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> > Subject: Re: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
> > Date: Quarta-feira, 20 de Janeiro de 1999 13:25
> > 
> > >Or you could just enjoy the old trick of fooling them into thinking
its
> the
> > >end, and just as they start to clap, go into the really loud section
> that's
> > >obviously the same piece. Smile wickedly when you do this.
> > 
> > March 23rd, 1792: Haydn's Symphony #94 ("The Surprise Symphony")
> premieres
> > in London.
> > 
> > It'd be great to have a time machine to check out the audience reaction
> on
> > THIS one! Or imagine the Haydn interview in the April 1792 issue of
> > "Today's Composer" where he explains how he came to feel the need for
> such
> > extremes of dynamic range; "...Well, they just weren't paying
attention,
> > and I said to myself 'Joseph, you've got to wake those buggers up', and
> > started going through my 'orchestral stab' samples, and next thing you
> > know..."
> > 
> > Live audiences have always been prone to distraction. It's only natural
> to
> > look around and check out a room full of interesting-looking strangers
at
> a
> > public gathering, especially in the hyper-social setting of a nightclub
> or
> > bar (or a concert hall, or an art gallery, or the mall, etc.). It would
> be
> > NICE if everyone would sit and listen intently, but it's probably not
> going
> > to happen very often, and this is not always an indication that the
music
> > being presented is in itself boring or that the band's presentation is
> not
> > worth watching. It's just that there's a lot going on in the room, and
> > that's just part of live performance...
> > One advantage we have over Haydn is that we can sell CD's at our live
> > shows, so that some of the audience can take the music HOME and put on
> > those headphones... We can take advantage of two very different means
of
> > presenting the music, live AND recorded, and each can enrich the other.
> > 
> > Maybe Hi Fi Bugs could start off with a few pieces of a more
conventional
> > length/dynamic range to hook the crowd, and THEN preface the longer
ones
> > with the sort of communication/explanation Kim wrote of once the room
has
> > settled in a bit.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > 
> > Tim
> > 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 21 12:52:48 1999
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So, when I order these, do I just say "4 4MB SIMMs", or do I have to be more specific (60ns, 120ns, etc.)?
Thanks,

Steve Delgado  
--

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:10:44   Clifford Novey wrote:
>Ok, I looked in the manual in the section on memory and it states that
>one of the requirements is that the memory have 120ns access time or
>better-
>I just bought 4 simms and the package has 60ns written on it- now I am
>worried that they may not work properly but I am not sure if the 60ns
>written on the label refers to the access time or not- anyone have a
>clue?
>
>Oops, ok, I just called the store and they said that the 60ns refers to
>the speed or refresh rate of the chip itself- so, if the access time
>needs to be 120ns and the chip refreshes at 60ns- then the 60ns chips
>exceed the requirement- the chip will refresh and be available for
>access every 60ns- twice as fast as the minimum requirement-
>
>Just thought someone might find that interesting!
>
>Cliff
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Edwin Hurwitz <edwin@indra.com>
Subject: Re: mainstream.....
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>ola all.......just watched the movie "smoke-signals" a nice flick.....the
>final music in the movie was wonderful so i paid close attention to the
>credits and lo and behold after the gaffers and the electritions there was the
>catagory "looping group" after which was listed several names then the list of
>other musical contributors.....they are coming out of the
>closet!.........michael

Looping in the movie3 industry refers to a dialog replacement technique and
comes from the past when replacement dialog was stored on loops of analog
tape or mag stock tape.

Edwin

Edwin Hurwitz
Boulder CO
http://www.indra.com/~edwin


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Hi Ed,

sorry to bother you off topic, but I tried unsuccesfully to contact Bob Sellon with
regard to his JamMan Mod Eproms.

Now as
Ed Drake wrote:

> I have not had a chance to try the MPX G2, but here is a message that Bob
> Sellon from Lexicon sent to me recently regarding this item:

Is there any way you could supply me a valid email address of his?

Manfred



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In a message dated 19/01/99 23:14:10 GMT, you write:

<< 
 The price difference could be the included software that Layla has, but Aark
 20/20 apparently doesn't. 
  >>
Layla has midi IN/OUT/THROUGH
and S/PDif in/out
(.but only 8 inputs)
audio i/o  is balanced on 1/4 jacks.

looks like you've got a bargain there 

Andy Butler

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Bob,

i work with a single JamMan. However, when i do multiple loops, i often do
it manually. That is, i do it using polyphonic instruments, e.g. stick or
piano, and/or i employ multiple players. So, this may or may not be on
target as the kind of technique in which you might be interested. 

However, what i do is to think very much about the 'phase' structure of the
piece. i relate each loop to a common tick (finest audible subdivision of
the beat). But, i try to emphasize a different pulse in each loop. This
gives the soloist or improvisational voice the opportunity to mix pulses. i
look to create loops where the different pulses get maximally out of phase
and then come together for a kind of tension-release effect.

For example, i may have one loop with a strong 5/4 pulse and another with a
strong 4/4 pulse. If the shortest note (in both loops) is an 1/8th note,
then they are synchronized by an 1/8th note tick. In this case, if both
loops are 1 measure long, then they would come together every 40 ticks
(assuming the measures don't repeat internally). i then try to write my
loops to maximize the tension, via harmonic structure, dissonance, dynamics,
etc. just before the 41st tick, and then resolve on the 41st tick.

This technique gets more interesting when the loops are more than one
measure long. In the example above, 40 ticks is 5 measures of 4/4, and 4
measures of 5/4. That is, if we repeat a single measure of 4/4 5 times it
will line up exactly with a loop that repeats a single measure of 5/4 4
times. If we then make the 5/4 loop be two measures long, each measure
observably distinct, then we don't have a real line up, i.e. pulse and note
values line up, until 80 ticks go by. But, we have the pulses lining up at
the 40 tick mark. Similarly, every 20 ticks there is a mini-"node point",
where a subdivision of the beats of the two loops come together. By playing
with mounting the tension and resolving, slightly on these internal node
points, you can create really interesting effects. 

Note: i have intentionally left out what i think increases tension because i
think that's different for different ears. Tritones, for example, make me
happy.

Another interesting technique is to create an 'outer' loop which uses the
inner loop as 'events'. So, we could use the same 5 against 4 structure in
the example above as a guide for triggering the 5/4 loop or the 4/4 loop.
The question you have to decide is the duration of the event. If you set it
equal to the duration of the longest loop, you only get the loops playing at
the same time every 20 'events'. If you set it shorter, you get more
overlap. 

(This approach, imho, seems much a much more promising application of
fractals to music. The dimension along which the piece is self-similar is
time. The application above says what happens to the structure of the piece
as you increase the time dimension. Clearly, you see a similar structure. As
you diminish time, the same thing out to happen. More specifically, as you
diminish the time, you get closer to the pulse of the frequencies that give
rise to our experience of the note. My (untested!) belief is that if this
pulse is related by a number of iterations of an IFS to the musicians
experience of the basic pulse(s) of the piece, then you get appealing
noise.) 

Finally, it may seem to many that one must relate each loop to a common
tick. But, i would suggest to a person that feels this way to listen to the
work of Conlon Nancarrow, who uses player pianos to do looping and other
interesting and related things. He sets the rhythmic relationships between
the voices (take this to mean a generalized notion of a loop) to be
non-integral numbers. In fact, some of his pieces have voices progressing
with respect to each other at a rate measured by a transcendental number
(i.e., it's not even rational). 

i hope this helps.

--greg

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Bob Campbell [SMTP:astropulse@hotmail.com]
	Sent:	Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:08 PM
	To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
	Subject:	dual loop technique?


	I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices 
	can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am specifically
	interested in exploiting that device, but any generic technique
	ideas are of interest.

	Bob




	______________________________________________________
	Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Bob,

Just for the record, in the last sentence, i meant to say: 'i.e., it's not
even algebraic.' Obviously, there are irrational numbers which are not
transcendental. 

--greg

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Greg Meredith 
	Sent:	Thursday, January 21, 1999 1:42 PM
	To:	'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'
	Subject:	RE: dual loop technique?

	Bob,

	i work with a single JamMan. However, when i do multiple loops, i
often do it manually. That is, i do it using polyphonic instruments, e.g.
stick or piano, and/or i employ multiple players. So, this may or may not be
on target as the kind of technique in which you might be interested. 

	However, what i do is to think very much about the 'phase' structure
of the piece. i relate each loop to a common tick (finest audible
subdivision of the beat). But, i try to emphasize a different pulse in each
loop. This gives the soloist or improvisational voice the opportunity to mix
pulses. i look to create loops where the different pulses get maximally out
of phase and then come together for a kind of tension-release effect.

	For example, i may have one loop with a strong 5/4 pulse and another
with a strong 4/4 pulse. If the shortest note (in both loops) is an 1/8th
note, then they are synchronized by an 1/8th note tick. In this case, if
both loops are 1 measure long, then they would come together every 40 ticks
(assuming the measures don't repeat internally). i then try to write my
loops to maximize the tension, via harmonic structure, dissonance, dynamics,
etc. just before the 41st tick, and then resolve on the 41st tick.

	This technique gets more interesting when the loops are more than
one measure long. In the example above, 40 ticks is 5 measures of 4/4, and 4
measures of 5/4. That is, if we repeat a single measure of 4/4 5 times it
will line up exactly with a loop that repeats a single measure of 5/4 4
times. If we then make the 5/4 loop be two measures long, each measure
observably distinct, then we don't have a real line up, i.e. pulse and note
values line up, until 80 ticks go by. But, we have the pulses lining up at
the 40 tick mark. Similarly, every 20 ticks there is a mini-"node point",
where a subdivision of the beats of the two loops come together. By playing
with mounting the tension and resolving, slightly on these internal node
points, you can create really interesting effects. 

	Note: i have intentionally left out what i think increases tension
because i think that's different for different ears. Tritones, for example,
make me happy.

	Another interesting technique is to create an 'outer' loop which
uses the inner loop as 'events'. So, we could use the same 5 against 4
structure in the example above as a guide for triggering the 5/4 loop or the
4/4 loop. The question you have to decide is the duration of the event. If
you set it equal to the duration of the longest loop, you only get the loops
playing at the same time every 20 'events'. If you set it shorter, you get
more overlap. 

	(This approach, imho, seems much a much more promising application
of fractals to music. The dimension along which the piece is self-similar is
time. The application above says what happens to the structure of the piece
as you increase the time dimension. Clearly, you see a similar structure. As
you diminish time, the same thing out to happen. More specifically, as you
diminish the time, you get closer to the pulse of the frequencies that give
rise to our experience of the note. My (untested!) belief is that if this
pulse is related by a number of iterations of an IFS to the musicians
experience of the basic pulse(s) of the piece, then you get appealing
noise.) 

	Finally, it may seem to many that one must relate each loop to a
common tick. But, i would suggest to a person that feels this way to listen
to the work of Conlon Nancarrow, who uses player pianos to do looping and
other interesting and related things. He sets the rhythmic relationships
between the voices (take this to mean a generalized notion of a loop) to be
non-integral numbers. In fact, some of his pieces have voices progressing
with respect to each other at a rate measured by a transcendental number
(i.e., it's not even rational). 

	i hope this helps.

	--greg

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Bob Campbell [SMTP:astropulse@hotmail.com]
		Sent:	Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:08 PM
		To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
		Subject:	dual loop technique?


		I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices 
		can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am
specifically
		interested in exploiting that device, but any generic
technique
		ideas are of interest.

		Bob




		______________________________________________________
		Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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ooops,

this was supposed to be a private email.
My apologies.

Manfred

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i like the idea of 2 looping (or more) in parallel, w/different fx on
each. different time lengths are neat. i suppose if you were running a
1202 or some such you could feed the looping things signal from aux's 1
& 2 so they could be parallel but still be able to stack/overdub onto
eachother.
neat neat neat.

bobdog

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 21 23:50:16 1999
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From: Kriist@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:43:04 EST
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I got my EDP a few days ago and now i go to turn in on and it just says "Err"
THeres nothign about that in the manual?

What do i do?

Rodrigo
Kriist@Aol.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 22 00:51:53 1999
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From: "James Ko" <Kojaque@email.msn.com>
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Subject: Dual Loop Techniques
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:41:04 -0500
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Hi all:

A novice looper here and I am intreged by the dual looping thing.  In fact,
I am awaiting for the EDP from the group purchase to put along side my
present one and I intend to run them brother synched and in stereo.  And
indeed I have just bought a 1202 so thanks to bobdog for the additional
stacking/overdubbing suggestion.

An effect that I want to try to do is to first pan the two units hard left
and right and create loops that continuously pan from one side to the other.
To do this on the fly, I need a stereo pan pedal that goes to both EDPs.

Question:
Am I going to have any problems with the EPDs with this?  and....

Does anyone know of a panning pedal (l assume it should look like a volume
pedal)?  I recall that Ernie Ball/Music Man used to carry one of these a
while back.  Does anyone know if it still exists?  Any other company make
them?

Thanks to all.

Jim Ko
Philadelphia, PA



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>Does anyone know of a panning pedal (l assume it should look like a volume
>pedal)?  I recall that Ernie Ball/Music Man used to carry one of these a
>while back.  Does anyone know if it still exists?  Any other company make
>them?

    Rolls makes a stereo volume pedal that pans (and can be used as a CV pedal
for a  vortex) and Morley made a panner that was a standard vol pedal that
 actually pivoted from side to side.  The Rolls is model #RFX402P and runs
about $45. 

Steve

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Steve wrote:
So, when I order these, do I just say "4 4MB SIMMs", or do I
have to be more specific (60ns, 120ns, etc.)?
Thanks,

Steve Delgado

Steve-
I think at this point even the cheapest simm you can find would be
faster than 120ns- but it would be a good idea to check just in case to
be sure that it is at least 120ns or a lower number such as 60ns, as the
manual states it needs 120ns minimum.

It sounds like the EDP has been out for awhile- I heard the 4mb memory
cost $200 each when it first came out!
When exactly did this incarnation of the EDP come to be?

Patiently waiting...(for MY EDP that is),

Cliff

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Sorry to quote such a lengthy post but I had to respond to the following
description.
Greg, I like the sound of your idea- but it gets very cerebral to me with it all
in writing- how about an example made available on your website (if you have
one, if you are able)
I just cant "think through it" without simply wanting to HEAR what you are
talking about-

Only a suggestion...

It makes me think of J. McLaughlin- the odd times and another pattern merging
with the first- (I love McLaughlin)

Cliff

Greg Meredith wrote:

> Bob,
>
> i work with a single JamMan. However, when i do multiple loops, i often do
> it manually. That is, i do it using polyphonic instruments, e.g. stick or
> piano, and/or i employ multiple players. So, this may or may not be on
> target as the kind of technique in which you might be interested.
>
> However, what i do is to think very much about the 'phase' structure of the
> piece. i relate each loop to a common tick (finest audible subdivision of
> the beat). But, i try to emphasize a different pulse in each loop. This
> gives the soloist or improvisational voice the opportunity to mix pulses. i
> look to create loops where the different pulses get maximally out of phase
> and then come together for a kind of tension-release effect.
>
> For example, i may have one loop with a strong 5/4 pulse and another with a
> strong 4/4 pulse. If the shortest note (in both loops) is an 1/8th note,
> then they are synchronized by an 1/8th note tick. In this case, if both
> loops are 1 measure long, then they would come together every 40 ticks
> (assuming the measures don't repeat internally). i then try to write my
> loops to maximize the tension, via harmonic structure, dissonance, dynamics,
> etc. just before the 41st tick, and then resolve on the 41st tick.
>
> This technique gets more interesting when the loops are more than one
> measure long. In the example above, 40 ticks is 5 measures of 4/4, and 4
> measures of 5/4. That is, if we repeat a single measure of 4/4 5 times it
> will line up exactly with a loop that repeats a single measure of 5/4 4
> times. If we then make the 5/4 loop be two measures long, each measure
> observably distinct, then we don't have a real line up, i.e. pulse and note
> values line up, until 80 ticks go by. But, we have the pulses lining up at
> the 40 tick mark. Similarly, every 20 ticks there is a mini-"node point",
> where a subdivision of the beats of the two loops come together. By playing
> with mounting the tension and resolving, slightly on these internal node
> points, you can create really interesting effects.
>
> Note: i have intentionally left out what i think increases tension because i
> think that's different for different ears. Tritones, for example, make me
> happy.
>
> Another interesting technique is to create an 'outer' loop which uses the
> inner loop as 'events'. So, we could use the same 5 against 4 structure in
> the example above as a guide for triggering the 5/4 loop or the 4/4 loop.
> The question you have to decide is the duration of the event. If you set it
> equal to the duration of the longest loop, you only get the loops playing at
> the same time every 20 'events'. If you set it shorter, you get more
> overlap.
>
> (This approach, imho, seems much a much more promising application of
> fractals to music. The dimension along which the piece is self-similar is
> time. The application above says what happens to the structure of the piece
> as you increase the time dimension. Clearly, you see a similar structure. As
> you diminish time, the same thing out to happen. More specifically, as you
> diminish the time, you get closer to the pulse of the frequencies that give
> rise to our experience of the note. My (untested!) belief is that if this
> pulse is related by a number of iterations of an IFS to the musicians
> experience of the basic pulse(s) of the piece, then you get appealing
> noise.)
>
> Finally, it may seem to many that one must relate each loop to a common
> tick. But, i would suggest to a person that feels this way to listen to the
> work of Conlon Nancarrow, who uses player pianos to do looping and other
> interesting and related things. He sets the rhythmic relationships between
> the voices (take this to mean a generalized notion of a loop) to be
> non-integral numbers. In fact, some of his pieces have voices progressing
> with respect to each other at a rate measured by a transcendental number
> (i.e., it's not even rational).
>
> i hope this helps.
>
> --greg
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Bob Campbell [SMTP:astropulse@hotmail.com]
>         Sent:   Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:08 PM
>         To:     Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>         Subject:        dual loop technique?
>
>         I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices
>         can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am specifically
>         interested in exploiting that device, but any generic technique
>         ideas are of interest.
>
>         Bob
>
>         ______________________________________________________
>         Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:55:45 -0800 (PST)
From: John Tidwell <wedgehed@yahoo.com>
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Of course it's obvious! The only reason I pulled off
my shoes was to check your work.

	John



---Greg Meredith <gregmer@MICROSOFT.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
> 
> Just for the record, in the last sentence, i meant to say: 'i.e.,
it's not
> even algebraic.' Obviously, there are irrational numbers which are not
> transcendental. 
> 
> --greg

==
John Tidwell



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 03:34:19 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Err message on EDP?
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At 8:43 PM -0800 1/21/99, Kriist@aol.com wrote:
>I got my EDP a few days ago and now i go to turn in on and it just says "Err"
>THeres nothign about that in the manual?
>
>What do i do?

do you have everything connected to it correctly? It says "err" when
something weird is happening at one of the connectors at power up. You
might try unplugging everything from the back and see if it still does that.

kim


______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 22 09:31:21 1999
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			Playlist for "EMUSIC"

"Emusic," an electronic, ambient, and space music show, airs each Thursday
at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem, PA and 93.9 FM in
Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ.  http://wdiyfm.org/schedule/s_emusic.html

		Show #98		January 21, 1999.
		Host: Bill Fox		http://wdiyfm.org
		billfox@fast.net

On this show, I continued the month-long focus on electronic music
pioneer, Wendy Carlos.  For background information, please point your
web browser to the WDIY web site or visit the...

Wendy Carlos web site:	http://www.wendycarlos.com

The feature CD at midnight was "A Clockwork Orance" on East Side
Digital.

ARTIST                  TRACK                    ALBUM (label)
======================= ======================== ==============================
11:00 pm
Wendy Carlos            Vocal Synthesis          Secrets of Synthesis (CBS)
Synergy (Larry Fast)    Delta Two                Games (Third Contact)
Synergy (Larry Fast)    Delta Four               Games (Third Contact)
Paul Nagle              Anachronist              Lore (SMD)
VA [T-Bass UK]          Nemesis                  Is There Anybody Out There...?
                                                 (Champagne Lakes/AD Music/SMD)
Paul Haslinger          Fantastic Voyage         Score (RGB/HoS)
Chuck Wild              Balance                  Liquid Mind III (Chuck Wild)

12:00 am
Wendy Carlos            Timesteps                A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            March from A.C.O.        A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Title Music from A.C.O.  A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            La Gazza Ladra           A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Theme from A.C.O.        A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            9th Symphony Mvmt 2      A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            William Tell Overture    A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Orange Minuet            A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Biblical Daydreams       A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Country Lane             A Clockwork Orange (ESD)
Frank Van Bogaert       Amber                    Colours (Ace Studio)
Spacecraft              Destination: Infinity   Spacecraft(LektronicSoundscapes)

1:00 am

 * = exerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)

On the next EMUSIC, I will conclude the month-long focus on electronic
music pioneer, Wendy Carlos.  The feature CD at midnight will be "Sonic Seasonings" on East Side Digital.

Please visit the WDIY web site and navigate through the schedule to the
EMUSIC pages.  Playlists for every show are there.  Hot links to artists
and labels can be found in the monthly focus section.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 22 11:49:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:24:18 -0500
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This is a test.  Is the list still up?  I haven't received any messages 
for days!

- Dennis Leas
-- 
dennis@mdbs.com

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From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
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In a message dated 1/21/99 4:53:36 PM Mid-Atlantic Standard Time,
edwin@indra.com writes:

<< Looping in the movie3 industry refers to a dialog replacement technique and
 comes from the past when replacement dialog was stored on loops of analog
 tape or mag stock tape. >>

thanks edwin and dt.......learn something new every day, thats my motto
:)........michael

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Hello all,
Consider this an invitation to check out my radio show, "The Tuesday Afternoon Mix", which airs -- let's see now, when IS that? -- oh yeah, Tuesday afternoons from 3 -- 5:30 p.m. EST on WFHB, the community radio station for Bloomington, Indiana (broadcasting on RealAudio at www.wfhb.net or visit our website at www.wfhb.org and follow the links).  As the name implies, I play a variety of music, but I believe the music I play will appeal particularly to musicians (Berklee College class of '77 here).  

A representative smattering of artists:  Miles, of course; Zawinul/Weather Report, Airto Moreira, Jon Hassel, Bill Laswell, King Crimson, David Torn (some weird guy who plays funny guitar), Ben Neill, The Grassy Knoll, Squarepusher, Scanner, Rinne Radio (a great Finnish band), Hassan Hakmoun, Youssou N'dour, etc.  In addition I intend to order the Loopers' Delight CD's, so if any of you are any good, you could be a star (well in my show, anyway).  Please note: I regularly make a complete idiot of myself on the air, as I am absolutely not the slick dee-jay type, but then again the music is the main thing.  I look forward to your visit.

Steve Delgado
P.S. I use my life-long nickname, "Chino", as my nom de radio.


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 22 16:03:04 1999
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From: Greg Meredith <gregmer@MICROSOFT.com>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: dual loop technique?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:35:25 -0800
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Cliff,

Fortunately, since i synchronize on a subdivision of the beat, i can write
down what i do in standard western musical notation. When i am done with my
latest piece, if you want, i will send you a NIFF file of the composition.
The LIME tool is a good viewer/editor/player for NIFF.

--greg

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Clifford Novey [SMTP:clifsound@earthlink.net]
	Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 1:18 AM
	To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
	Subject:	Re: dual loop technique?

	Sorry to quote such a lengthy post but I had to respond to the
following
	description.
	Greg, I like the sound of your idea- but it gets very cerebral to me
with it all
	in writing- how about an example made available on your website (if
you have
	one, if you are able)
	I just cant "think through it" without simply wanting to HEAR what
you are
	talking about-

	Only a suggestion...

	It makes me think of J. McLaughlin- the odd times and another
pattern merging
	with the first- (I love McLaughlin)

	Cliff

	Greg Meredith wrote:

	> Bob,
	>
	> i work with a single JamMan. However, when i do multiple loops, i
often do
	> it manually. That is, i do it using polyphonic instruments, e.g.
stick or
	> piano, and/or i employ multiple players. So, this may or may not
be on
	> target as the kind of technique in which you might be interested.
	>
	> However, what i do is to think very much about the 'phase'
structure of the
	> piece. i relate each loop to a common tick (finest audible
subdivision of
	> the beat). But, i try to emphasize a different pulse in each loop.
This
	> gives the soloist or improvisational voice the opportunity to mix
pulses. i
	> look to create loops where the different pulses get maximally out
of phase
	> and then come together for a kind of tension-release effect.
	>
	> For example, i may have one loop with a strong 5/4 pulse and
another with a
	> strong 4/4 pulse. If the shortest note (in both loops) is an 1/8th
note,
	> then they are synchronized by an 1/8th note tick. In this case, if
both
	> loops are 1 measure long, then they would come together every 40
ticks
	> (assuming the measures don't repeat internally). i then try to
write my
	> loops to maximize the tension, via harmonic structure, dissonance,
dynamics,
	> etc. just before the 41st tick, and then resolve on the 41st tick.
	>
	> This technique gets more interesting when the loops are more than
one
	> measure long. In the example above, 40 ticks is 5 measures of 4/4,
and 4
	> measures of 5/4. That is, if we repeat a single measure of 4/4 5
times it
	> will line up exactly with a loop that repeats a single measure of
5/4 4
	> times. If we then make the 5/4 loop be two measures long, each
measure
	> observably distinct, then we don't have a real line up, i.e. pulse
and note
	> values line up, until 80 ticks go by. But, we have the pulses
lining up at
	> the 40 tick mark. Similarly, every 20 ticks there is a mini-"node
point",
	> where a subdivision of the beats of the two loops come together.
By playing
	> with mounting the tension and resolving, slightly on these
internal node
	> points, you can create really interesting effects.
	>
	> Note: i have intentionally left out what i think increases tension
because i
	> think that's different for different ears. Tritones, for example,
make me
	> happy.
	>
	> Another interesting technique is to create an 'outer' loop which
uses the
	> inner loop as 'events'. So, we could use the same 5 against 4
structure in
	> the example above as a guide for triggering the 5/4 loop or the
4/4 loop.
	> The question you have to decide is the duration of the event. If
you set it
	> equal to the duration of the longest loop, you only get the loops
playing at
	> the same time every 20 'events'. If you set it shorter, you get
more
	> overlap.
	>
	> (This approach, imho, seems much a much more promising application
of
	> fractals to music. The dimension along which the piece is
self-similar is
	> time. The application above says what happens to the structure of
the piece
	> as you increase the time dimension. Clearly, you see a similar
structure. As
	> you diminish time, the same thing out to happen. More
specifically, as you
	> diminish the time, you get closer to the pulse of the frequencies
that give
	> rise to our experience of the note. My (untested!) belief is that
if this
	> pulse is related by a number of iterations of an IFS to the
musicians
	> experience of the basic pulse(s) of the piece, then you get
appealing
	> noise.)
	>
	> Finally, it may seem to many that one must relate each loop to a
common
	> tick. But, i would suggest to a person that feels this way to
listen to the
	> work of Conlon Nancarrow, who uses player pianos to do looping and
other
	> interesting and related things. He sets the rhythmic relationships
between
	> the voices (take this to mean a generalized notion of a loop) to
be
	> non-integral numbers. In fact, some of his pieces have voices
progressing
	> with respect to each other at a rate measured by a transcendental
number
	> (i.e., it's not even rational).
	>
	> i hope this helps.
	>
	> --greg
	>
	>         -----Original Message-----
	>         From:   Bob Campbell [SMTP:astropulse@hotmail.com]
	>         Sent:   Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:08 PM
	>         To:     Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
	>         Subject:        dual loop technique?
	>
	>         I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices
	>         can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am
specifically
	>         interested in exploiting that device, but any generic
technique
	>         ideas are of interest.
	>
	>         Bob
	>
	>         ______________________________________________________
	>         Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 22 16:34:21 1999
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From: "Dennis W. Leas" <dennis@mdbs.com>
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I've resubscribed!  I don't know how I got unsubscribed, but it's good 
to be back (in the loop, so to speak).

As list messages are echoed back to the sender, I'd like take this 
opportunity to welcome myself back to the list :)

Thanks to Alan Hoover, Patrick Smith and Kim Flint for asking my "Help" 
message.

- Dennis Leas
-- 
dennis@mdbs.com

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Greg Meredith wrote:
> 
> Cliff,
> 
> Fortunately, since i synchronize on a subdivision of the beat, i can write
> down what i do in standard western musical notation. When i am done with my
> latest piece, if you want, i will send you a NIFF file of the composition.
> The LIME tool is a good viewer/editor/player for NIFF.

Your technique sounds fascinating.  Please send me a NIFF file as well.  Also, where can I find 
the LIME tool?

Is anybody familiar with "change ringing?"  I'd be happy to try a short explanation if anybody is 
interested.  Greg, your discussion on how the accents "hunt" through your composition reminds me 
of how bells ring the changes.

- Dennis Leas
-- 
dennis@mdbs.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 22 19:30:59 1999
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From: M3chakucha@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:18:50 EST
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Dear Bob,

	Used a pair of old fashioned echoplexi, that have since gone to their great
rewards, and I went about it in two different ways.  The first was similiar to
the way that Gary Lucas had his stage setup, wherein he used a switchbox that
would allow for a single input and then (in my case) three outputs.  One to
each of the echoplexi, and then one that went straight to the board.
	In a nutshell, the object was that I could run a pair of loops in layers, in
parallel to each other.  Tried out a second such switch so that I could route
the signal from the first echoplex into the second, and was only able to
really use it for two gigs, after which the first of the aging machines died,
and then the second followed quite a bit later on.
	
	Anywho, hope this helps out for suggestions.

	Tchus,

		Lee-ohki.
	

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Message-ID: <36A91E8B.3674ABCF@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:57:50 -0600
From: Bobdog <psbuddha@texas.net>
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hi loopists -

this is a blatant attempt to sell something. if that bugs you please
stop now.

since my mind & time are completely occupied w/figuring out my computer
studio, i'm thinking about selling my roland gp-100; it, too, wants alot
of my time to figure it out. my brain is small so i must prioritize.

i'd like to get $500 for it w/book & box.

please email me *off list* if interested...

bobdog <psbuddha@texas.net>

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From: Kriist@aol.com
Message-ID: <82a9a177.36a9292f@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:43:11 EST
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In a message dated 1/22/99 4:51:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, dennis@mdbs.com
writes:

<< Is anybody familiar with "change ringing?"  I'd be happy to try a short
explanation if anybody is 
 interested.  Greg, your discussion on how the accents "hunt" through your
composition reminds me 
 of how bells ring the changes.
 
 - Dennis Leas
 --  >>
Yes, what is change ringing?

rodrigo

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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:36:31 EST
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In a message dated 1/22/99 7:14:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kflint@annihilist.com writes:

<< At 8:43 PM -0800 1/21/99, Kriist@aol.com wrote:
 >I got my EDP a few days ago and now i go to turn in on and it just says
"Err"
 >THeres nothign about that in the manual?
 >
 >What do i do?
 
 do you have everything connected to it correctly? It says "err" when
 something weird is happening at one of the connectors at power up. You
 might try unplugging everything from the back and see if it still does that.
 
 kim
 
  >>
Shortly after sending the mail i did jus that, i unplugged it all and tried
again, 
it thankfully worked.........phew!

oh, is the mute button supposed to cut my audio right away?, or after 2
presses?

rodrigo
kriist@Aol.com

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At 08:36 PM 1/22/99 EST, you wrote:

>
>oh, is the mute button supposed to cut my audio right away?, or after 2
>presses?
>

Sounds like you have the Quantize parameter turned on. You might want to
read about that a bit in the manual to be sure you understand it. If you
turn quantize off, mute will occur immediately like you expect. With
Quantize on, it waits to the end of the loop cycle to mute. 

In any case with quantize on, if you press the function a second time while
it is waiting for the end of the cycle, the function executes immediately.
That way you can break out of quantizing if you want to.

kim
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint, MTS		       408-752-9284
ATI Research	       kflint@chromatic.com

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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:52:09 EST
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In a message dated 21/01/99 07:17:12 GMT, you write:

<< I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices 
 can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am specifically
 interested in exploiting that device, but any generic technique
 ideas are of interest.
 
 Bob >>
Midi sync them together, but with different No's of beats, thats the first
thing I'd do if I had two JamMen.
Andy Butler

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From: "ALTO MUSIC" <u1010403@warwick.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: echoplex
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:21:57 -0000
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hello friends this isJon from alto music. Gibson is starting to ship =
echoplexes to us slowly but surely.
They are building about 4 units a day and shipping us everyone. We are =
filling orders in order they were received. Gibson is overnighting units =
at their expense (WOW) so we get them the day after they are built and =
tested. Thankyou for your patience. Any questions call Jon at Alto Music =
914 692 6922.
I will be out at the NAMM show Jan 28-Feb1 so in that time frame speak =
to Gary. Thanks again

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE46C2.96472FC0
Content-Type: text/html;
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>hello friends this isJon from alto =
music. Gibson=20
is starting to ship echoplexes to us slowly but surely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>They are building about 4 units a =
day and=20
shipping us everyone. We are filling orders in order they were received. =
Gibson=20
is overnighting units at their expense (WOW) so we get them the day =
after they=20
are built and tested. Thankyou for your patience. Any questions call Jon =
at Alto=20
Music 914 692 6922.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I will be out at the NAMM show Jan 28-Feb1 so in =
that time=20
frame speak to Gary. Thanks again</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE46C2.96472FC0--

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From: "ALTO MUSIC" <u1010403@warwick.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: echoplex
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:32:58 -0000
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Hello this is Jon from Alto Music. Gibson is building and sending me all =
the echoplexes they can the same day. They are overnighting them to me =
at their expense. We are shipping them in order that the orders were =
received. Thank you for your patience any questions call me 914 692 =
6922. I will be out of town for the NAMM show Jan 28-Feb1. In that time =
frame speak to Gary as I will leave him with all pertinent info. Thanks =
again for your patience.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE46C4.208B7FA0
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello this is Jon from Alto Music. =
Gibson is=20
building and sending me all the echoplexes they can the same day. They =
are=20
overnighting them to me at their expense. We are shipping them in order =
that the=20
orders were received. Thank you for your patience any questions call me =
914 692=20
6922. I will be out of town for the NAMM show Jan 28-Feb1. In that time =
frame=20
speak to Gary as I will leave him with all pertinent info. Thanks again =
for your=20
patience.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE46C4.208B7FA0--

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 23 12:35:12 1999
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Greg had some nice ideas with the dual loop technique, especially for mixing
tempos.  It's a great system.  

I found a similar technique was also great for creating some wild stereo
panning.  In the 80s I was in a band called Delay Tactics.  A song from our
second album (Any Questions?) features what we called "Duel Delay Technique".
To set this up we synched two EH 16 second delays together.  Then we fed a
panable stereo line from the mixer to each unit - one received the left
channel, the other received the right.  The channel outputs the from each
unit, again left and right, were fed back to the mixer. 

As a result, once the delays were rolling, we were able to create panable
repeating stereo loop tracks.  For instance, using a 4 second delay while
recording a guitar track, the engineer could pan the guitar around the stereo
field at will.  The same panning movement would sweep across at every 4 second
repeat.  With up to 100 layers for an entire song, the textures got pretty
interesting.  It was a nice alternative to the traditional bouncing or mono
drone delay techniques.

I'm enjoying everyone letters.  Keep up the great work!

Carl Weingarten

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loopers

i know there was a thread on filters a while back, so i apologize if i missed
something; HOWEVER i wonder if anyone has had any experience with bob moog's
"moogerfooger" (ugh) low-pass filter stompbox (2/4-pole variable resonance vcf
w/ envelope follower, all parameters controllable via expression pedal or cool
mini-moog style rotary controls). looks like a neat little box.

lance g.



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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:16:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rev. Doubt-Goat" <dgoat@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hi Fi Bugs Concerned about Live Performance
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93

---MARK FRANO <mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com> wrote:
> Are we too boring visually?

Probably. ;-) Remember, live performance is usually
looked on as *entertainment* and a bunch of nerdy
lookin' guys sitting around punching buttons on
sequencers and loopers is deadly dull to look at. Get
a dancer, show some video.

93
Rev. Doubt-Goat
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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count me in......voodoo trumpetman news....
laika and jon hassell should collaborate.....

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 24 08:25:56 1999
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Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:22:42 +0100
From: PERILLE <perille@club-internet.fr>
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Hello,

Could someone tell me if the SP-202 can record a loop while playing back
another loop ?

Thank you

Emmanuel
perille@club-internet.fr

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Subject: Multiple looper setup tip
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 11:21:58 -0500
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><< I'm interested in hearing ideas about how 2 loop devices 
> can be used creatively together. I use JamMan's so am specifically
> interested in exploiting that device, but any generic technique
> ideas are of interest.
> 

Set one delay to, say, 8 seconds, and the other to nine.  Set one for 
only one repeat and the other for lots of regeneration.  Apple different 
post-loop processing to each loop.  Be prepared to play very sparely in 
this setup.

TH

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 24 17:38:35 1999
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At 5:22 AM -0800 1/24/99, PERILLE wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Could someone tell me if the SP-202 can record a loop while playing back
>another loop ?
>

I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 24 19:38:32 1999
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From: Jim Bailey <jbailey@corporate.southam.ca>
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Subject: RE: Another Radio Show...
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:40:28 -0500
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>----------
>From: 	Esteban Delgado[SMTP:esdel@eudoramail.com]

>Hello all,
>Consider this an invitation to check out my radio show...

Well, while we're at it, let me remind folks, if I haven't mentioned it =
before, that I do a programme on CKLN-FM here in Toronto =
(http://ckln.sac.ryerson.ca//ckln.html), so you can send your discs, or =
whatever, there to the attention of "Electric Storm" and I'll give 'em a =
whirl. The L-D CD's would be nice (hint, hint).

Jim Bailey

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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 24 19:48:54 1999
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From: "earthblind, starbound" <leper@mindspring.com>
Subject: new grendel song
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Once again, there is a new song by electronic wizard Grendel ( (: ) up
on the web (at the future home of World Rim Records).  This song is called
"Dial 911 is a Joke" and the reason I named it that is it uses about 5
seconds from each of two songs, then brutalise.  Looping done with Acid
and Fruity Loops.

If you want to listen, check out either the URL below or 
http://listen.to/grendel and tell me what you think.

-- 
*Consider yourself warned.* -- Grendel (Industrial/Electronic Prog):
 http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/4664/grendel.html
 Against a Sickness: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/4664

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 01:33:32 1999
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From: bryan.helm@dinosaur.com
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Organization: The Dinosaur Board
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Being an avowed techno-primitive it always occurs to me that any
"technique" or "procedure" that I utilize in my loop work would hardly
be of interest to anyone else, let alone border on anything close
to being "avante garde"  or progressive in nature. However setting
this disbelief aside momentarily...here goes:

I normally run my clapped out Korg DW8000 synth and Roland TR-505
drum machine into an EH-16 second delay. After manipulating the EH
until I've gotten a suitably twisted rhythmic loop from the Korg and Roland
signals, I close the loop and run the signal into a Mackie 1202. The effects
send is routed through an Alesis Microverb (pronounced HISSSS) then into
a JamMan and then a Vortex to bring it all a sense of stereo. This signal is
then returned to the Mackie via seperate channel inputs,as opposed to the
effects send return. At this point I should say that I don't currently use MIDI
for anything, not likely to start soon given my techno-phobe tendencies. At
any rate with the EH providing the rhythm loop, I tap out as many loops into
the JamMan as I feel appropriate, or can get to synch, before the EH starts to
drift. With hopefully a few synchronous loops in the JamMan as a result of 
this goofy fun, I then layer various textures and tonalities on each of the 
loops to achieve a collection of varied but rhythmically congruent segments.
Sometimes I keep the EH loop and slow it down or speed it up to add some
percusive accents to the JamMan loops, or I do new tonal oriented loops on
the EH and add them to the JamMan loops to taste. Often when I think I've
reached a saturation point on the JamMan in relation to retaining the loop
texture I was seeking, I'll stop. If that point has been passed (operator error)
particularly in a rhythmic sense I'll add hand triggered drum machine accents
to the loop to re-vitalize the aspect of tempo. After I'm happy with the
collection
of loops in the JamMan,I may use the EH to do another "non-rhythm" loop
which I'll use as an un-synched harmonic source to compliment and contrast
the JamMan loops. Then I generally solo against/along with these loops and
capture the whole mess on my aged 77 dollar Marantz dubbing cassette deck,
in real time, no undo button, no fix in the mix. Usually I'll do a couple of
takes
with varied intent before sending the respective loops into the ether. In that
I started tape looping in the late 70's, this system affords a far greater
amount
of control than any earlier system(another story) while still maintaining a true
element of chance (or "hazard" as Fripp would say), which is after all the
real beauty (for me at least) in this "method". I've utilized this basic system
as a player in a solo,duo,trio,... up to a quintet situation, with varying
results.

As an adjunct to this "blurb" I want to say that the issue of sharing one's
loop techniques and methods with others is the same for all artists who
work in a medium that isn't addressed (yet) in the scope of "instructional"
videos,classes, or shameless huckstering by the supposed "elite" class
of performers in any generation. There's every reason to protect one's
artistic "secret procedure", if the result of sharing said same results is a
lessened abilty to market one's wares as being unique or new(to an
increasingly jaded public) particularly if that marketing is the artist's
sole source of monetary support. In that I doubt if I've made 1000 dollars
total as a result of my 20 years of loop oriented musical pursuits I have
no qualm sharing these "cutting edge" techniques with any and all, but 
then again my wife and I supported ourselves and our 2 children on about
16,000 dollars last year. I mention this only to further illustrate that the
true difference between many artists (and certainly many of the players
on the LD list) is the relative ratio of time and money available to those
artists to pursue their art. On a related note....when the hot water heater
in my basement broke this morning, the resulting leak did not damage
any of my equipment, for which I am eternally grateful.

                            Still avoiding being the subject of the "loop of
the week"

                                                   Bryan Helm

P.S. If this endless tirade bored you to tears...
        compose a loop about it...I sure will. 
 


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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 05:32:59 1999
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From: Kriist@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:25:11 EST
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I hear an awful lot about this little thing.
about how much do they run for now adays?

is anybody selling one?
for that matter is anybody selling a vortex.

i will have to agree with Bryan in his dual loopness mail that it would be
great to see/read more loopers talking about their 'techniques'.
it would be very informative to the pro and novice alike since most
musicians(whatever that means)approach their instrument(loops)in their own
little esoteric way.

rodrigo

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 11:54:04 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:06:09 -0500
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From: Robert Switzer <rswitzer@721.com>
Subject: *Echovirus* Blindfold OneofaKind remix 
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Hi everyone,

	I've finally completed a track based on the Blindfold OneofaKind tape Ed
Chang was kind enough to send me several months ago.  While not exactly a
remix, I sampled heavily from Ed's tape to create a beat-heavy
trip-hop/ambient dub track called 'BlindFold DisFunktion'.

	This track will be included on an upcoming CD by my electronic/studio
project *Echovirus* called 'Poison Reverse'.

	The track is available in CD-quality mp3 downloadable form at
http://www.mp3.com/evirus -- checkit out, and let me know what you think . . .

	And while you're at mp3.com, check out listmate Tim Walker
http://www.mp3.com/timwalker.  Joe Conley http://www.mp3.com/conley is also
quite good, though I'm not sure whether he's on this list or not.

rob switzer
----------------------------


http://www.721.com/rswitzer

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what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a wall
and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out of sows
ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new idea.......any
methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
waiting?...........michael

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Find the biggest hat you can, wear it with some dutch wooden clogs and a 
bathrobe, ride a portible bike around downtown handing out strawberries.

If that dosen't get you arrested, you should be fine

-Dan

From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:00:48 EST
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: question
Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com

what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a 
wall
and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out 
of sows
ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new 
idea.......any
methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
waiting?...........michael




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 15:09:09 1999
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From: Greg Meredith <gregmer@MICROSOFT.com>
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Subject: Dual Loop Techniques
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All,

i would like to emphasize the point others have made that the dual loop
technique thread has been incredibly valuable. It is interesting and
instructive to see such a range of approaches to organizing noise! i don't
know what the exact relationship beauty holds to diversity, but i do know
that i'm much more likely to encounter the former in an environment, like
the LD list, which supports the latter.

i wonder if it would be possible to circulate some 'theme' (or pair of
themes) through each of these different techniques and see what comes out.
i'd love to be able to hear each one side-by-side-especially with a
description of the process used. Is this a starting point for LD CD3?

It would also be interesting to try to organize this emerging palette of
approaches. For example, how many processes are deterministic, same
input-same output; and how many non-deterministic? How many are signal-path
based (work the same way no matter what the signal content) versus those
that some how actually make use of the content of the signal (work
differently depending on the content of the signal)? Coming up with the
questions that tease apart different approaches almost always helps me see
how i might best apply a given approach to achieve the effect i want. Often
it helps me see new approaches.

--greg

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Nemoguitt@aol.com [mailto:Nemoguitt@aol.com] opined:
> any methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
> waiting?...........michael

I try to be transparent to the pieces, and just let them come through if not
from me.  I try not to get too self-inflated if I can help it regarding the
process of creation... such that, during times of non-productivity, one can
forgive oneself more easily.  I hope that it works, and if it doesn't, I get
my head involved in something else.

* Read a new book, and imagine the soundtrack of it, were it a film or TV
show.  This however can cause disappointment in the event such a thing is
made - since it can never be as good as in the mind, can it?

* Go back to old recordings, and cull through the pieces to find something
to make a new arrangement of.

* Make a loop and let it run as long as time or family permits.  Go into the
other room and you may hear something other than that piece.

*  Listen to the fan in your bathroom and think of solos or such that would
go along with it, while you shave (or whatever).

Good luck!  (Though I don't believe in a random order of the universe...)

Stephen Goodman  -  It's... The Loop Of The Week!
EarthLight Studios  -  http://www.earthlight.net/Studios

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93

---Nemoguitt@aol.com wrote:
>
> what do you all do when your muse goes on
vacation?.......i have hit a wall
> and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to
make "silk purses out of sows
> ears".....throughout december i was a nova of
creativity, burnt miles of
> tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even
buy a new idea.......any
> methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it
just a matter of
> waiting?...........michael

Ah, the joys of burn-out. Direct force rarely seems
to work for anyone. Things to keep in mind: diet,
execise, sexual frequency/infrequency, sleep
patterns, stress levels, etc. If any of these things
are severely out of balance, then forget the musical
creativity till you re-balance, i.e. take care of
basic needs first.

Now, during these periods, I usually find it useful
to focus on grunt work (like rewiring my studio) and
chops oriented, repetitive work - stuff that needs to
be done but requires no creative fire. Like
practicing scales, arpeggios, melodic patterns, etc.
etc.

If all things seem balanced, and yet there is no
fire, then try seducing it back. Make yourself
attractive to creativity. Don't just throw 'er on the
bed and expect to get anything. Take her out to
dinner and a movie, moonlit walks and mad dashes on
the beach. Cuddle up by the fire with a good glass of
wine and book. Show her erotica (MF catalogs and
guitar magazines). Etc.

93
Rev. Doubt-Goat (king of the mixed-metaphor)
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam
 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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From: "Bob Campbell" <astropulse@hotmail.com>
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>> ...any methods out there to re-kindle the spark?

Check out:
Oblique Strategies - a set of problem-solving cards for artists.

I heard Brian Eno speak once, and he praised this tool which was 
created by the late artist Peter Schmidt.

Here's a website with info:
http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/ObliqueStrategies/index.html
or search for 'Oblique Strategies'.

These are not 'music centric' they are generic creativity exercises.
The cards are out of print, but virtual copies are on the web.

-Bob


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From: Hawkeye255@aol.com
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Michael,
	I publish a lot of poetry and short stories and the only way 'the muse" stays
with me is to be there everyday (7 days a week) at the same time, ready to
listen.  For me that's 5 A.M.  I plan to write for at least an hour, but often
find myself still going til 9:30 or 10:00.  But I never stop for the day at a
point that I've finished something.  I always quit when I still have something
clearly in my mind yet to do (for the next day).  When I wake up, I can't wait
to get to work.  If I miss a day, I damned near go into withdrawal.

Hawkeye

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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:26:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Unit Circle Media <unitcirc@unitcircle.com>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: dual loop technique?
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Greg Meredith's post was right on.  I've been using variations of this
technique for quite a while using MIDI loops, but haven't been able to get
the timing or equipment right yet for live loops.  With my live looping
situations at the moment, I'm not as concerned as much with having the
loops converge.  I'm mostly working with "hiding" the loop.  My stuff is
mostly atmospheric and having two loops of differing lengths allows me to
use shorter loops that don't take as much stage time to construct, but
aren't as noticible as they repeat.

	Kevin


Kevin Goldsmith				kevin@unitcircle.com
Unit Circle Media			http://www.unitcircle.com/


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 18:46:05 1999
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From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: Re: question
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Nemoguit wrote:
>any methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
>waiting?...........michael

Michael,

Disrupt your habits...Recently in preparation for a gig at an art opening
we needed to strip down the gear we use for due to lack of space to set up
in.
I used a portable sequencer as a live instrument to trigger MIDI note
information from two synths. I took along an Eventide and two looper's.

Usually I use a guitar with lots more options than this. With out having
the guitar this opened up new ways at looking at what I do. The resulting
music was similar to what we usually do but different.

And then this weekend when we turned on the tape machine and I was using my
guitar again it was very fresh. I spent three weeks "guitarless."

Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

"fascinating aural images...luminous portraits of sound & vision..." Outburn 8

                            www.fingerpaint.net  


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 18:46:39 1999
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Subject: Re: EH16?
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>I hear an awful lot about this little thing.
>about how much do they run for now adays?
>
>is anybody selling one?
>for that matter is anybody selling a vortex.

The EH 16 goes for around $1000 US if you can find one....OUCH!! There was
a Vortex at the Rogue Music Auction a couple days ago. I don't know when
the close date was.

Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

"fascinating aural images...luminous portraits of sound & vision..." Outburn 8

                            www.fingerpaint.net  


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 19:32:57 1999
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In a message dated 1/25/99 1:18:19 PM Central Standard Time, Nemoguitt@aol.com
writes:

<< any
 methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
 waiting? >>

as Miles said to Coltrane... "take the horn out of your mouth". 

I find that, although I like to play something everyday, I am most jazzed up
and creative when I haven't played for a few days. Putting the instrument down
until you have to pick it up again is sometimes a good thing, and an easy way
to break from ruts. 

good luck. 

- Crossedout@aol.com

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From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
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>>> ...any methods out there to re-kindle the spark?

>Check out:
>Oblique Strategies - a set of problem-solving cards for artists.

One thing I enjoy about mixing non-synchronous loops is that occasionally
two or more completely unrelated events will match up perfectly...

Just the other day, I was looping with some folks and the topic arose that
while the music we were making was certainly interesting and didn't sound
half bad, it might be in our better interest to write some "songs" as
points of reference to better anchor the set and provide a firmer
foundation for the improvised material. One comment was made to the effect
that "we're turning into a jam band. An ELECTRONIC jam band, but still a
jam band." While I didn't necessarily agree with this view, nor see
improvising as inherently evil, it got me thinking about unconventional
writing methods, and I recalled having many years ago read a description of
Oblique Strategies. I have never seen a deck of these cards, and have only
heard paraphrased a couple of the "aphorisms" found on them, and had not
even thought about them in years until last week. 
Not having access to Oblique Strategies cards, I decided to make my own. I
divided one side of a sheet of paper into a large grid, then turned it over
and repeated the grid on the other side so that it would line up when I cut
the "cards" apart. On one side of the paper, I wrote phrases describing
moods and textures, or intentionally vague instructions; "quietly
aggressive", "slowly falling slowly", "simple", "vibrating like an angry
swarm of bees", "spaghetti Eastern", "building", "kelp forest", "funkier
than James Brown", "wooden pandemonium ritual", "electro-Rasta Dub plate"
and so forth, all designed to be as non-specific and open to interpretation
as possible. On the other side I wrote, at random, a key signature or
something such as "D Modal" or a gamelan scale or raga, or "no pitched
sound, highly rhythmic". (You could also write a color on there, and use
them for visual arts). Then all the little slips of paper go into a hat, or
a box or some such suitable container, and are drawn in pairs (one
instruction from the front matched up with the key or scale from the back
of the other card) to serve as guidelines to organise an improvisation.
Interpretation of the instructions may be discussed by the musicians at the
time the cards are drawn, OR you can agree to NOT discuss them and just
play. Record the whole mess, then go back and listen to it with an open ear
to extracting the best parts as the basis for actual "songwriting", or
sample the tastiest bits. Or not, it's up to you. The cards are just a
tool, a game which can spur creativity, but to overuse would be to abuse
the muse...
The cards I came up with are probably nothing at all like Peter Schmidt's
actual Oblique Strategies, but that doesn't really matter, since they're
just an exercise in creative thought, and a lot of fun to boot. The results
obtained by making your own cards are probably also quite different than
what would come from using an actual set too, although now that the link
has been posted with all that great Oblique Strategies info (Thanks to Bob
Campbell!
http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~gtaylor/ObliqueStrategies/index.html ) I think
I'll have to look into the real Schmidt and Eno thing! I'm going to keep
(and add to) the ones I made, though; they're as much fun to make as they
are to use, although Dan Bartell's Big
Hat/clogs/bathrobe/bicycle/strawberries approach is probably a bit more
original.

Later, 

Tim

P.S.: I'm looking for an inexpensive single-space rack mount unit for pitch
shifting. Any of you have any suggestions re the ones you like or the ones
you hate (and why)?

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Michael,
	I've run into this a bit, too, lately. I've found that the quickest way
for me (as a guitarist primarily...) is to work with a new tuning system.
Even the simplest of changes can lead you into unfamiliar territory--and,
hopefully, there you will run into something new. If you're not a
guitarist, then why not pick up a guitar and become one? That would be fun.
This goes for any instrument. My next rut-getter-outter is a theremin.
Yeehah! Feel free to email me at home (subversive@mindspring.com). I've got
a million rut-killers.
Good luck,
Jeff McLeod
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

At 02:00 PM 1/25/99 EST, you wrote:
>what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a wall
>and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out of
sows
>ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
>tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new idea.......any
>methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
>waiting?...........michael
>
>
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

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> throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
> tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new idea.......any
> methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
> waiting?...........michael
> 
	** i think that everybody has given good advice on this. despite the
frustration (or the cold turkey form the high of creating) that often comes
from having a "down" period, i find it helpful to think of it as merely a
time to recharge my batteries . . . or as a gestation period for the next
work to come.

	stig

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In a message dated 1/25/99 7:18:27 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Nemoguitt@aol.com
writes:

> what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a wall
>  and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out of 
> sows
>  ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
>  tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new idea.......any
>  methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
>  waiting?...........michael
>  
get your self some oblique strategies
or read

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 21:54:44 1999
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Michael,

i have often faced the problem of lack of inspiration. i appreciate almost
all, and employ many of the techniques already suggested by many on the list
to overcoming this situation. However, one approach stands out by its
absence on the growing list of suggestions. This is the one that, for me,
absolutely hands down, conquers this problem. 

i explore the "design space" of sonic organization in an entirely
algorithmic and *mechanical* way. i decompose the space of sounds into a
finite set of dimensions and rules for combining sounds along these
dimensions. And then, i simply start exploring, in as methodical a manner as
i can, the applications of the rules to the generation of sounds.

What this does is to guarantee that i get into regions of the production of
sound that my aesthetic or gut-instinct almost certainly would *not* have
led me. This almost invariably leads me to a surprise: a combination of
sounds i would never have thought of putting together in quite that way.
When i get surprised, i get intrigued. When i get intrigued, i get inspired.
This is my experience.

Let me give an example. But, because the example is long, let me stress this
is an example of a general technique i'm trying to get across. Suppose that
we simply want to explore the production of sound in a single 'key' in the
sense meant in western classical music. One observation is that all tones
are naturally divided into 7 tone classes. Each class contains all the
different octaves of a given note. Thus, in a key, say D major, which has an
A natural, one of the tone classes contains A440, and A220 and A110 and
A880, etc. Let's write [A] for the tone class that contains all the A's and
[D] for the tone class that contains all the D's, etc.

Now, suppose that we assign to each tone class a number. For definiteness,
we'll stick to the D major key and, for simplicity, lets have them ascend in
a manner similar to the way the tones in an octave ascend. So, that gives us
a little table like this:

[D]    <---->  0
[E]    <---->  1
[F#]  <---->  2
[G]    <---->  3
[A]    <---->  4
[B]    <---->  5
[C#]  <---->  6

Given a tone class [X], let's write N([X]) for the number we assigned to it.
E.g., according to our table N([D])=0. Similarly, given a number, n, ranging
from 0 through 6, let's write T(n) for the tone class assigned to it. So,
T(0) = [D]. Notice that N(T(n)) = n and that T(N([X])) = [X]. For instance,
N(T(0)) = N([D]) = 0 and similarly, T(N([D]))= T(0)=[D].

What we're going to do is to introduce a new kind of transformation on
collections of tones. It's sort of like transposition, in the sense that it
preserves some symmetry, but it's not transposition because a) we never
leave the key and b) we preserve a different symmetry than transposition
preserves. 

To introduce this transformation, we're going to pair up a number from 0
through 6 with another such. Whenever any two numbers between 0 and 6,
inclusive, add up to 7, they're considered a pair. So, the pairs are

1,6
2,5
3,4
4,3
5,2
6,1

Now, i'm going to throw in the pair 0,0 to complete the story. You can view
it that 0 was the only one not paired, or you can view it that we're
operating in the group Zmod7, whichever works for you. Given a number, n,
from 0 through 6, let us represent it's partner by p(n). For example, p(6) =
1 and p(1) = 6. Notice that p(p(n)) = n.

Now, we can write down our transformation. Given a tone class [X],
Rotate([X]) is defined by Rotate([X]) = T(p(N([X]))). Here are the rotations
of all of the tone classes for the key of D according to this assignment.

Rotate([D])= T(p(N([D]))) = T(p(0))= T(0) = [D]
Rotate([E])= T(p(N([E]))) = T(p(1))= T(6) = [C#]
Rotate([F#])= T(p(N([F#]))) = T(p(2))= T(5) = [B]
Rotate([G])= T(p(N([G]))) = T(p(3))= T(4) = [A]
Rotate([A])= T(p(N([A]))) = T(p(4))= T(3) = [G]
Rotate([B])= T(p(N([B]))) = T(p(5))= T(2) = [F#]
Rotate([C#])= T(p(N([C#]))) = T(p(6))= T(1) = [E]

Or without the intermediate calculations

Rotate([D])= [D]
Rotate([E])= [C#]
Rotate([F#])= [B]
Rotate([G])= [A]
Rotate([A])= [G]
Rotate([B])= [F#]
Rotate([C#])= [E]

Now, suppose you give me a melody in the key of D major. If i faithfully
apply my transformation to the melody, that is, i rotate all the notes in
the melody, then i get an entirely new melody still in the key of D major.
All the rhythmic values have remained unchanged, but the note-value contour
of the melody has completely changed. 

You may have noticed that i only gave you tone classes, not tones. So, to
apply rotation to a melody, you still have to pick one of the tones from the
tone class to get a real tone. But this is one of the interesting parameters
to vary in this process.

Another parameter to vary is the assignment of tone classes to numbers. You
could, for example, try

N([B])=0
N([C#])=1
N([D])=2
N([E])=3
N([F#])=4
N([G])=5
N([A])=6

And any of the other many assignments. 

So, popping up a level we now have a rule for generating new melodies from
old ones. The next step is apply this rule as methodically as possible,
trying to come up with as many ways as you can to exhaust its application. i
guarantee you, you will be surprised by the results. 

The MIDIscenti on this list might write a program which applies such a
transformation to a loop. A really cool approach is to put the 0 on the
starting note of a melody, apply transformation and loop that once, then put
the 0 on the second note of a melody, apply transformation and loop once,
etc. 

Philosophically, i believe that this meta-technique of exhaustively
exploring the design space generated from a few simple rules is exactly what
happens in nature. Natural selection speeds up the truly exhaustive search.
Similarly, in this technique we're, effectively, employing a genetic
algorithm where 

*	the individuals are 'musical utterances';
*	reproduction is the application of a rule;
*	the fitness criterion is 'do i like the way it sounds.' 

It also pleases my sensibilities no end to derive inspiration from an
entirely mechanical process. It fits with my view of the mystery of life: so
much awe-inspiring variation from just enough mechanism to make it happen.

Finally, it takes away most of the ego from the process. It's very little
about me or my generative and potent creativity. It's more about my tiny,
limited aesthetic (which was more or less developed before i was even
cognizant of 'i') reacting to and interacting with the vast array of
information that's already there in front of my nose. And, when my
impoverished imagination fails to help me see what's right in front of me,
turning the handle on the machine will.

Sorry the post was so long. i didn't have time to think about how to make it
shorter.

--greg

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Nemoguitt@aol.com [SMTP:Nemoguitt@aol.com]
	Sent:	Monday, January 25, 1999 11:01 AM
	To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
	Subject:	question

	what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit
a wall
	and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses
out of sows
	ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt
miles of
	tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new
idea.......any
	methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
	waiting?...........michael

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 22:06:51 1999
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In a message dated 1/26/99 12:46:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, tcn62@ici.net writes:

> On the other side I wrote, at random, a key signature or
>  something such as "D Modal" or a gamelan scale or raga, or "no pitched
>  sound, highly rhythmic". (You could also write a color on there, and use
Ive been trying to find out about ragas for a bit
whats a resource for that type of thing?

and any other obscure leads would be nice

rodrigo

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From: Greg Meredith <gregmer@MICROSOFT.com>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: creative ennui question/Oblique Strategies.....ragas
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:14:29 -0800
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Rodrigo,

A great resource is Henry Cowell's _New Musical Resources_. This was the
book that inspired Conlon Nancarrow, for example, to do his player piano
stuff. It's a brilliant little book and very accessible.

--greg

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Kriist@aol.com [SMTP:Kriist@aol.com]
	Sent:	Monday, January 25, 1999 6:56 PM
	To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
	Subject:	Re: creative ennui question/Oblique
Strategies.....ragas

	In a message dated 1/26/99 12:46:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
tcn62@ici.net writes:

	> On the other side I wrote, at random, a key signature or
	>  something such as "D Modal" or a gamelan scale or raga, or "no
pitched
	>  sound, highly rhythmic". (You could also write a color on there,
and use
	Ive been trying to find out about ragas for a bit
	whats a resource for that type of thing?

	and any other obscure leads would be nice

	rodrigo

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 22:38:26 1999
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From: Greg Meredith <gregmer@MICROSOFT.com>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: creative ennui question/Oblique Strategies.....ragas
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:25:15 -0800
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Rodrigo,

Ooops, i should have made it clear that this was just an obscure lead and
not about ragas.

--greg

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Greg Meredith [SMTP:gregmer@MICROSOFT.com]
	Sent:	Monday, January 25, 1999 7:14 PM
	To:	'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'
	Subject:	RE: creative ennui question/Oblique
Strategies.....ragas

	Rodrigo,

	A great resource is Henry Cowell's _New Musical Resources_. This was
the
	book that inspired Conlon Nancarrow, for example, to do his player
piano
	stuff. It's a brilliant little book and very accessible.

	--greg

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Kriist@aol.com [SMTP:Kriist@aol.com]
		Sent:	Monday, January 25, 1999 6:56 PM
		To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
		Subject:	Re: creative ennui question/Oblique
	Strategies.....ragas

		In a message dated 1/26/99 12:46:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
	tcn62@ici.net writes:

		> On the other side I wrote, at random, a key signature or
		>  something such as "D Modal" or a gamelan scale or raga,
or "no
	pitched
		>  sound, highly rhythmic". (You could also write a color on
there,
	and use
		Ive been trying to find out about ragas for a bit
		whats a resource for that type of thing?

		and any other obscure leads would be nice

		rodrigo

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oops, 
as i was saying

performing modern compositions?

Im looking to do the rite of spring for guitar/loops

terry rileys in c
etc....

rodrigo

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 22:39:38 1999
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In a message dated 1/26/99 3:20:47 AM !!!First Boot!!!, gregmer@microsoft.com
writes:

> Rodrigo,
>  
>  A great resource is Henry Cowell's _New Musical Resources_. This was the
>  book that inspired Conlon Nancarrow, for example, to do his player piano
>  stuff. It's a brilliant little book and very accessible.
>  
>  --greg
>  
I have that book.
Its great, its a tad on the 'what you should do' side for my tastes but great
none the less.
Im interested in more non-western modal stuff.
Hell, anything would be interesting.

Also, has anyone on the list dabbled in performing interpretations of moder

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 22:41:51 1999
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Do what Eno would do...tidy up!  ;-) works for me...sometimes...

Or read Eno's diary, "A Year With Swollen Appendices." I found it 
inspiring, and Eno lists a lot of other great books to read in this diary.


>what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a wall
>and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out of 
>sows
>ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
>tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new idea.......any
>methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
>waiting?...........michael
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Mon Jan 25 23:21:01 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:44 -0600
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here are 3 great books on raga theory for those interested:

ragopedia : exotic scales of northern india by shiv dayal batish &
ashwin batish
it's really just scales instead of ragas but lots of fun for practice.
available from batish records, 1310 mission st., santa cruz, ca, 95060

the classical music of northern india : the 1st year's study by ali
akbar khan
more intense than ragopedia, if you can do all this in a year you're
*real* good.transcriptions are into indian sargam, so it might be a
little weird at first. available from the ali akbar college store
1-800-748-2252

northern indian music by alain danielou
this 1 gets real complex into the math involved w/the just intonations
of the ragas, but lots of transcriptions into 5 line staff. it may be
out of print, but i've seen some of his others at bizaar of india on
university ave in berkeley.

if you live somewhere where there is anyone teaching indian music,
either vocal or instrumental, i'd highly recommend taking some classes.
it's is by far the best thing i've done for expanding my musical
horizons. it's good for humility, too.

bobdog

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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:35:41 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com>
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At 11:53 AM 1/25/99 -0800, Greg Meredith wrote:
>All,
>
>i would like to emphasize the point others have made that the dual loop
>technique thread has been incredibly valuable. It is interesting and
>instructive to see such a range of approaches to organizing noise! i don't
>know what the exact relationship beauty holds to diversity, but i do know
>that i'm much more likely to encounter the former in an environment, like
>the LD list, which supports the latter.
>
>i wonder if it would be possible to circulate some 'theme' (or pair of
>themes) through each of these different techniques and see what comes out.
>i'd love to be able to hear each one side-by-side-especially with a
>description of the process used. Is this a starting point for LD CD3?

Actually, I think it would be a great idea for a set of tutorial web pages
on the Looper's Delight site, with audio examples. Any volunteers want to
take it on? Remember, volunteers are what make this whole thing work, don't
hesitate to jump in there and add something of your own!

kim
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint, MTS		       408-752-9284
ATI Research	       kflint@chromatic.com

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:01:14 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
Subject: CGDAEG
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Hi, all...
	Have any of you guitarists on the list ever experimented with or are you
currently using the Guitar Craft New Standard Guitar Tuning (CGDAEG)? I'm
in the process of setting my guitar up with this tuning, which is a bit of
a task (to me, at least), since the actual high 3rd is EXCEPTIONALLY high
and tends to snap the string. It's a beautiful tuning and has already
resulted in some great ideas--although I haven't brought it into the trio
format yet.
	I was curious about anyone else's thoughts on the tuning--and would
appreciate any comments on string guages that work the best with the high
tension, approaches to learning one's way around on it (although the basis
on the tuning in 5ths feels so very, very familiar--it's wonderful to play
around in so far...) and anything else that you might have to offer about it.
Sincerely,
Jeff McLeod
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:25:53 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Tim Nelson <tcn62@ici.net>
Subject: Re: creative ennui question/Oblique Strategies.....ragas
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>Ive been trying to find out about ragas for a bit
>whats a resource for that type of thing?
>
>and any other obscure leads would be nice
>
>rodrigo
>
Here are a few URL's, most of which link to further sites of interest:

http://www.raganet.com/RagaNet/
http://www.premamusic.com/links.indian.html
http://southasia.net/Arts/Music/Instrumental/index.html
http://fareed.com/drone.html
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~sundar/
http://mitpress.mit.edu/e-journals/Leonardo/isast/journal/cartlm4.html
http://www.ancient-future.com/rhythm.html
http://www.paganmusic.com/ethnic.htm

and a disclaimer: Just because I jot down an exotic ethnic scale on the
back of a slip of paper doesn't mean that I in any way consider myself an
expert in the musics of India, Java, Bali, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, etc.,
and I hope I didn't imply otherwise in my earlier posting. Asian and Middle
Eastern musics are among the world's most challenging, and are generally
characterized by students sitting at the feet of their teachers for years
of disciplined study before being so presumptuous as to lay claim to any
musical proficiency. My suggestion of using ragas and gamelan scales drawn
at random from a hat can certainly lead to some interesting and original
results, particularly in the context of something like Oblique Strategies,
and can be extremely enjoyable, but is NOT in any way a claim of
proficiency, expertise or authenticity. It IS, however, one of many ways to
get out of the type of stagnant rut we have been discussing in this thread,
and it IS a good way to expose oneself to some great music. 

Have fun,

Tim

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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:24:18 +0000
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My Top Ten Things to do when in need  of inspiration:

10) Try to prove that you can't prove anything.
 9)Stick my head in a cold shower.
 8)Force myself to listen to  a Radio station that I would not normaly 
listen to for an hour,
 7)Embarass myself on the internet.
 6)Try to rember the things that I would have rememberd if they were 
worth remembering.
 5)See if my daughter can say 
"SuperNarsasiticFacistsPatriarclePinPricks"
  4)E-mail Robert Fripp and tell him not to meet me at Flat 5,  because 
it's all  has been just  a hoax.
  3) quit taking my meds.
  2) Ponder if just lurking on this E-mail list for me would probibly be a 
better idea for myself and others.
   1) Hand write the Kings James Bible version of the book of  
Revelations in Reverse "tsirhC saw kcoR eht dna :meht dewollof  taht ...


Colin|niloC

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Try tuning at first CGDAEE( strings 1 & 2 are in unison).
Then slowly bring it up in half step increments. Each of the tunings:
CGDAEE
CGDAEF
CGDAEF#
&   CGDAEG are lot of fun  and the 1st string will tend not to break if you 
don't go strait to the G. 
Also try a gauge .8 or .9.

Colin|niloC

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At 12:01 AM 1/26/99 -0600, Jeff & Vonda McLeod wrote:
>Hi, all...
>	Have any of you guitarists on the list ever experimented with or are you
>currently using the Guitar Craft New Standard Guitar Tuning (CGDAEG)? 

noooooooo!!!!!!! please not again!!!!! anything but that! I'll confess!
anything you want!!! please, just no more Fripp guitar tunings! ahrrgggg I
can't stand the pain......


oh...ehem. :-) check the list archives. Our finely feathered fripp fans have
brought this up and discussed it to death with frippian verbosity at least
50 times over the past few years.....I'm sure that anything you could
possibly want to know about breaking e strings is there somewhere.

kim
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint, MTS		       408-752-9284
ATI Research	       kflint@chromatic.com

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From: "Javier Miranda V." <gnominus@earthling.net>
To: "Loopers' Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: question
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:30:42 -0800
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I sincerely want to thank everybody who has posted useful things to do when
the muse goes missing.  I have found myself going in negative eddies and
feeling bad for it later, like watching too much television or vegetating,
or going to too many movies, or not going out when I should, etc., the list
goes on.
	Posts like these make it very evident that this list is a remarkable thing
for me and I am ever so very grateful to read all of your words.  You are
becoming like good friends, all you dudes.
	Thanks.


-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkinson [mailto:jeancolin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday 25 January 1999 3:24 PM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: question


My Top Ten Things to do when in need  of inspiration:

10) Try to prove that you can't prove anything.
 9)Stick my head in a cold shower.
 8)Force myself to listen to  a Radio station that I would not normaly
listen to for an hour,
 7)Embarass myself on the internet.
 6)Try to rember the things that I would have rememberd if they were
worth remembering.
 5)See if my daughter can say
"SuperNarsasiticFacistsPatriarclePinPricks"
  4)E-mail Robert Fripp and tell him not to meet me at Flat 5,  because
it's all  has been just  a hoax.
  3) quit taking my meds.
  2) Ponder if just lurking on this E-mail list for me would probibly be a
better idea for myself and others.
   1) Hand write the Kings James Bible version of the book of
Revelations in Reverse "tsirhC saw kcoR eht dna :meht dewollof  taht ...


Colin|niloC


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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:38:56 +0100
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Leonardo Cavallo <cavallo@dada.it>
Subject: Re: CGDAEG
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At 23.04 25/01/99 -0800, you wrote:
>At 12:01 AM 1/26/99 -0600, Jeff & Vonda McLeod wrote:
>>Hi, all...
>>	Have any of you guitarists on the list ever experimented with or are you
>>currently using the Guitar Craft New Standard Guitar Tuning (CGDAEG)? 
>
>noooooooo!!!!!!! please not again!!!!! anything but that! I'll confess!
>anything you want!!! please, just no more Fripp guitar tunings! ahrrgggg I
>can't stand the pain......
>

hey Kim, wasn't you attending the last Guitar Craft seminar? 
;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

ciao
leo 

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From: Michael Peters <mpeters@csi.com>
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Subject: AW: CGDAEG
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:56:39 +0100
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> noooooooo!!!!!!! please not again!!!!! anything but that! I'll confess!
> anything you want!!! please, just no more Fripp guitar tunings! ahrrgggg I
> can't stand the pain......

ROFL!

*	Michael Peters:		mpeters@csi.com
*	escape veloopity:		electronic guitar loop music
*	hop - fractals in motion: 	strange attractors
*	http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mpeters




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Subject: one more plea...
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Howdy y'all...I know I've asked this before, and I know that I'm probably
the 18 billionth person to ask it again, but, does anyone have a Jam Man
for sale? I've looked and looked and looked, you all know the story.
Occasionally I find one, but it's gone faster than I can get my mail. Any
leads, info, suggestions or even equipment alternatives that are reasonably
priced would be more than appreciated. Thanks to all...CQ
www.jigglethehandle.com

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From: Hawkeye255@aol.com
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My keys snap off when I tune my Korg Prophecy to that tuning too!  It must be
something malevolent about the actual sounds produced, methinks?

Hawkeye

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:44:33 +0100
From: Claude Voit <c.voit@vtx.ch>
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Nemoguitt@aol.com wrote:
> 
> what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?..

My great source of relief when nothing is fresh anymore is Mick
goodrick's Advancing guitarist ISBN 0-88188-589-4

Ive been working on or just reading it for 10 years now I'm still
puzzled by all the questions he lets me answer by myself 

Check it out and tell me in ten years

Claude

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:35:32 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
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Erg,
	Sorry 'bout that. Just ignore me.
Jeff McLeod

At 11:04 PM 1/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>noooooooo!!!!!!! please not again!!!!! anything but that! I'll confess!
>anything you want!!! please, just no more Fripp guitar tunings! ahrrgggg I
>can't stand the pain......
>
>
>oh...ehem. :-) check the list archives. Our finely feathered fripp fans have
>brought this up and discussed it to death with frippian verbosity at least
>50 times over the past few years.....I'm sure that anything you could
>possibly want to know about breaking e strings is there somewhere.
>
>kim
>________________________________________________________
>Kim Flint, MTS		       408-752-9284
>ATI Research	       kflint@chromatic.com
>
>

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The main thing to remember about the "New Standard" Tuning is
that like the Red Rider Sure Shot BB Gun, if your not careful
you might shoot your eye out. Also the higher tension makes
for excellant results when slicing cheese.

                          B.Helm

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 26 13:52:45 1999
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Eagerly awaiting my group buy Echoplex,And inspired by Chuck Zwicky's
incredibly efficient and powerful rackmount set-up,I have been
contemplating puttting all of my looping in 1 rack.(bring it to every
gig!less then half an hour to set-up!!sneak loops into unsuspecting
environments!!!)In particular I've been looking at the Axon system and
doing most things in Midi.
1.Does anyone have experience with said device? Including the
soundboard?
2.I would love to hear the opinions of this group about their favorite
rackmount signal processers and the pros and cons of going "digital".
     
 Thamks in advance for your time,attention,and sonic sophistication,
                               scott  http://www.basscapes.com

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Nemoguitt@aol.com wrote:

> what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a wall
> and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out of sows
> ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
> tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new idea.......any
> methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
> waiting?...........michael

my theory has been that a muse sought after makes itself scarce in a nanosecond.
my advise, chill on trying, and go find something to do that you've perhaps been
neglecting (fill in the blank). i often wonder if the muse departs as a signal
that there is important business elsewhere. if you've already taken care of
whatever other stuff there is and still nothing seems to flow, maybe striking up
some kind of dialogue (sounds horribly new-aged, but shit, if it works...) with
that ol' bad muse and see what she wants of you. sometimes this is as simple (or
complex) as jotting down your dreams and mulling them over in your head (or use
an analyst if ya got one). if this doesn't prove fruitful, then getting some
quiet time alone with yourself and trying to conjure up a voice for her can work.
i've not had as much luck with the latter method, but i suppose more evolved
beings can do some amazing things wit it. another approach that's worked for me
in the past is to get out and do something physically challenging (fill in the
blank), appropriate to your local climate zone, of course...


good luck!

lance g.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 26 14:41:02 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:22:43 -0500
From: "Dennis W. Leas" <dennis@mdbs.com>
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My apologies for the delayed response.  Hope this isn't too much info.

Change Ringing
--------------
(Most of this stuff is from "The New Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments.")

Change ringing is traditionally performed by multiple ringers, one ringer per bell.  When a 
ringer sounds a bell during change ringing, he or she pulls the bell rope, the bell rings 
once and returns to a resting position.  Hence the bells are strictly controlled as to when 
they sound.

Given a set of bells, change ringing consists of sounding the bells in a predetermined 
order.  Various techniques are used to produce a sequence of ringing.  A "plain hunt" on a 
set of bells, named 1, 2 and 3 appears as:

 1 2 3
 -----
 2 1 3
 2 3 1
 3 2 1
 3 1 2
 1 3 2
 1 2 3

Three Bell Plain Hunt

This means that the pattern begins on the first row with ringer 1, then ringer 2, and then 
ringer 3.  Continuing with the second row ringer 2 sounds, then ringer 1, and then ringer 
3.  This continues until all the changes have been rung.

Draw a line through any given bell in the pattern above and you will see the bell wander 
through the pattern in a serpentine manner.  This is characteristic of the plain hunt.  A 
plain hunt is generated by flipping the order of adjacent pairs of bells and alternating 
which pairs are flipped.  With the set of three bells above, we have two transformations: 
1) (ABC->ACB) where the last pair is flipped and 2) (ABC->BAC) where the first pair is 
flipped.  We alternately apply transform 1 and 2.  The second row of the Three Bell Plain 
Hunt is generated by transform 1 from the first row, the third row is transform 2 from the 
second, and so forth.

With four bells, we flip the two outer pair and then the one inner pair:

 1 2 3 4
 -------
 2 1 4 3
 2 4 1 3
 4 2 3 1
 4 3 2 1
 3 4 1 2
 3 1 4 2
 1 3 2 4
 1 2 3 4

Four Bell Plain Hunt

Notice again, the path of any one bell through the pattern.  Bell four, for example:

 1 2 3 /
 -------
 2 1 / 3
 2 / 1 3
 / 2 3 1
 \ 3 2 1
 3 \ 1 2
 3 1 \ 2
 1 3 2 \
 1 2 3 /


However, with four bells a plain hunt produces only 8 combinations of the possible 24 (4! = 
24).  Many techniques can be used to produce all the combinations.  The Plain Bob is 
probably easiest to follow. (note: Bob has one o, not two.)  With the Plain Bob, the Plain 
Hunt pattern is used until a repetition would result, then a dodge occurs.  A dodge 
exchanges the order of the last pair.  Hence every eighth row of a Plain Hunt has a dodge 
inserted.  (Are you still with me on this?  Shheessh this is terse...wish I could make it 
clearer.)  A Four Bell Plain Bob looks like:

 1 2 3 4  (start Plain hunt)
 -------
 2 1 4 3
 2 4 1 3
 4 2 3 1
 4 3 2 1
 3 4 1 2
 3 1 4 2
 1 3 2 4  (Dodge 2 and 4, otherwise we'd get 1 2 3 4)
 1 3 4 2  (Plain hunt again)
 3 1 2 4
 3 2 1 4
 2 3 4 1
 2 4 3 1
 4 2 1 3
 4 1 2 3
 1 4 3 2  (Dodge 3 and 2, otherwise we'd get 1 3 4 2)
 1 4 2 3  (plain hunt again)
 4 1 3 2
 4 3 1 2
 3 4 2 1
 3 2 4 1
 2 3 1 4
 2 1 3 4
 1 2 4 3  (Dodge 3 and 4, completes the changes)
 1 2 3 4 

So I've been experiementing with this to generate looped patterns.  Traditionally, each 
bell sounds the same duration (time-wise).  If you weren't using bells, say some stacato 
sound instead, the pattern might sound syncopated depending on the instruments, etc.

I find it fascinating because it is highly structured but, depending on the length of the 
changes, the mind has difficulty grasping the pattern.

- Dennis Leas
-- 
dennis@mdbs.com

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Try going to the toy store.

(Not GC, etc.--a real toy store.)

Look and listen.

Maybe zone in on the $ 0.99 stuff.

Hope this helps,
pete koniuto

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:06:33 -0800 (PST)
From: John Tidwell <wedgehed@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: one more plea...
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Lentine Music's web site shows a Jam Man for sale for
$ 349. Look under Digital Delays.

http://www.lentine.com



---Chris Q <cqlung@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Howdy y'all...I know I've asked this before, and I know that I'm
probably
> the 18 billionth person to ask it again, but, does anyone have a Jam
Man
> for sale? I've looked and looked and looked, you all know the story.
> Occasionally I find one, but it's gone faster than I can get my
mail. Any
> leads, info, suggestions or even equipment alternatives that are
reasonably
> priced would be more than appreciated. Thanks to all...CQ
> www.jigglethehandle.com
> 
> 

==
John Tidwell



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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lance glover wrote:

> Nemoguitt@aol.com wrote:
>
> > what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a wall
> > and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out of sows
> > ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
> > tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new idea.......any
> > methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
> > waiting?...........michael
>
> my theory has been that a muse sought after makes itself scarce in a nanosecond.
> my advise, chill on trying, and go find something to do that you've perhaps been
> neglecting (fill in the blank). i often wonder if the muse departs as a signal
> that there is important business elsewhere. if you've already taken care of
> whatever other stuff there is and still nothing seems to flow, maybe striking up
> some kind of dialogue (sounds horribly new-aged, but shit, if it works...) with
>

Yeah, that has worked for me too. Got it originally from the Ira Progoff "Journal
Workshop" book.  An aside (not a flame!):

One of the interesting phenomena I see all over in interviews, on the Net and in
person, is the "apologetic, condescending" tone toward "new-age" ideas. I do the same
thing! Last thing want to do is appear to be one of "them".

Might get pegged as a softie in a rough and tumble world where $$ and hipness are the
coins of the realm???

Sad part is there are is so much there in the realm of ideas, spirit and creativity.
Not to speak of all the cool Looping CDs that are found in the New Age section of the
store, the "catch-all-that-cannot-be-categorized-elsewhere" category.

FWIW





--

Neil Goldstein
Portland, Oregon USA


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From: Steve Han <stevehan@transworld-lax.com>
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Subject: RE: Nemoguitt's wall breaker
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Michael,

I can soooo relate to your "hitting the wall".
But don't worry.  If you are like me and probably many
many of us loopers and scientific musicians, your creativity
is just getting some rest, like a bear during hibernation.

Try going to some local concerts to experience other musicians
and their compositions and mediums.
Try going to an art or perfomance arts museum.
Try racket ball with your buddy or a nice drive to the local
lake or mountains.
My inspiration sometimes come from an event that has nothing
to do with music.

If you are a guitarist, pick up a bass or a harmonica and try
composing.  Try plucking your electric guitar, finger style,
or pick up that classical guitar and compose 2 part, 3 part
melody song.
If these things do not work for you, then...
try not touching your instruments for a day or a week.

Most likely you have reached a platou where you are about
to break through to another level of writing and creating.
This may alarm you that you feel "spent" and/or "burnt" but
this may be your recuperating period for something more
intense and wonderful to follow.

Perhaps this is a sign for you to try that road where you
have not planned on taking, a completely new approach,
a fresh angle of attack to writing your music.

Don't be afraid to leave the things that had worked so
well for you in the past.
Just like that well-worn, comfortable shoes you've enjoyed
for so long, now it's time to try another pair.
You might find that you can maneuver in ways you
you have never imagined in the past.

Curbie

From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:00:48 EST
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: question
Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com

what do you all do when your muse goes on vacation?.......i have hit a 
wall
and it seems all i am now doing is attempting to make "silk purses out 
of sows
ears".....throughout december i was a nova of creativity, burnt miles of
tape.....now for the last week or so i cant even buy a new 
idea.......any
methods out there to re-kindle the spark or is it just a matter of
waiting?...........michael




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 26 18:39:06 1999
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Dear Jeff,

	Haven't tried that one out yet, but it looks like it could be super cool.
The tunings that I've worked with on a 12-string Steinberger guitar have been:
Ee Aa Dd Gg BB EE
Eg Ac Df  Gb BB EE
Dd Aa Dd Gg AA DD
Dg Ad Da Gd Ad DD
Dg Ad Dg Gc AA DD   often gets changed to AA AA or CC CC
Cc Gg Dd Aa GG GG  often gets changed to DD DD

Sometimes I use these on a 6 string, also a graphite neck so as to keep from
breaking anything!  LOL!  Now if only I had a harp guitar like what Michael
Hedges used with the appropriate synthesizer pickups...  Sigh...  I can dream
can't I?

Hope this helps out a bit.
Tchus,
Lee-ohki.



 

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In a message dated 1/25/99 6:46:39 PM Central Standard Time, tcn62@ici.net
writes:

<< "spaghetti Eastern" >>

while I found the whole mail chock full of good ideas and concepts, I had to
respond to this one - check out the disc "Bombay the Hard Way" - a collection
of film music from mid-70's "brownsploitation" pimp/spy/hustler movies from
India.....

loop content.... uhhhh, DJ Shadow and the Automator produced the comp, and a
couple of tracks are definitely built from looped source material rather than
being original score material in it's original form.... . 

- Crossedout@aol.com

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From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
Subject: Re: Midi,analogue,effects,effects,effects..
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On 1/26/99 Scott said:

>In particular I've been looking at the Axon system and
>doing most things in Midi.
>1.Does anyone have experience with said device? Including the
>soundboard?

Scott, You should check into the Digital Guitar Group. Paolo is on this
list and I'm sure will  provide you with information on how to join.


Patrick

Now Available:
                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE

            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT

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                            www.fingerpaint.net  


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Tue Jan 26 20:45:50 1999
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wow........michael

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wo dude... nice one

another trick that seems to work is having an unexpected visit from your
ex-girlfriend who you havent seen for two years with her new guy in tow...
after that little episode i had a fantastic 90 minute journey that dived into
some sort of deathly slow anarchy... i almost called her up and told her to
come back around... almost

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From: Grover Sheffield <gls@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: change ringing, was: dual loop technique?
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Dennis, 
        The change ringing info was very cool.  Thanks...

                Grover



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 01:05:59 1999
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Hi All,

    I am very sorry for crossposting this, but I consider these
essential places with people with similar concerns. and decent folks for
the most part.

    Aside from having a Mellotron soon to go to the shop and needing
help on building a Moog VCA and a KS clone I have a real problem.

    My EMS Synthi aks KS keyboard is not functioning properly.  I get
low note and then another note an octave or so higher on every pressure
point above.  I know how to use it so please no brush offs. . The
sequencer functions but there is nothing to store but two notes.  I
needed this unit for a project  I know that practical applications of
this part of that synth is rare.  Rare day today !

    Robin Wood has told me there are no sanctioned US support centers
and these things are not made anymore, they are rare and precious.

    I have talked to prolific posters an all of these lists and know
that there are many of you who have and use and need these machines. Who
can I trust to fix this without sending it to the UK for 26 weeks.

    If any of you, lurkers and posters can help pleasecontact me.

Thanks

G. Wong  (Fiveman)

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 01:35:01 1999
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In a message dated 1/26/99 7:10:47 AM !!!First Boot!!!, tcn62@ici.net writes:

> and a disclaimer: Just because I jot down an exotic ethnic scale on the
>  back of a slip of paper doesn't mean that I in any way consider myself an
>  expert in the musics of India, Java, Bali, Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, etc.,
>  and I hope I didn't imply otherwise in my earlier posting. Asian and Middle
>  Eastern musics are among the world's most challenging, and are generally
>  characterized by students sitting at the feet of their teachers for years
>  of disciplined study before being so presumptuous as to lay claim to any
>  musical proficiency. My suggestion of using ragas and gamelan scales drawn
>  at random from a hat can certainly lead to some interesting and original
>  results, particularly in the context of something like Oblique Strategies,
>  and can be extremely enjoyable, but is NOT in any way a claim of
>  proficiency, expertise or authenticity. It IS, however, one of many ways to
>  get out of the type of stagnant rut we have been discussing in this thread,
>  and it IS a good way to expose oneself to some great music. 
>  
>  Have fun,
>  
>  Tim
>  

Again, thank you.

Rodrigo

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>essential places with people with similar concerns. and decent folks for
>the most part.

Thanks (for the most part)!

>    My EMS Synthi aks KS keyboard is not functioning properly.

Since you don't specify which lists you've consulted, I'm not sure if
you've already tried this (most likely you have), but the Synthfool site
has recently expanded its Links page...

http://www.synthfool.com/

Thanks to the MANY resources found there, I was able to resuscitate my
long-dead SH-101. Unfortunately, your EMS IS rare and precious, so I can
certainly understand the difficulty you're having getting it repaired. Good
luck.

You might try

http://www.hinton.demon.co.uk/ems/emsmods.html

but if you've spoken with Robin Wood, you probably already know that!

Hope this helps,

Tim

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I recently purchased an Axon AX-100SB, which I am playing with my Godin LGXT electric.  I am extremely pleased (read "blown away") by the performance of both the Axon and the Godin.  The AX-100 has no problem keeping up with my fastest runs, and it truly excels at picking up those subtleties of guitar playing, such as various degrees of string muting, which makes it killer for funk, for instance.

I also belong to the Digital Guitar Forum; you may want to read my recent post to that list concerning the AX-100SB.  I also posted a list of all the Axon dealers in the US.

Steve Delgado  
--

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:08:00   Patrick Smith wrote:
>On 1/26/99 Scott said:
>
>>In particular I've been looking at the Axon system and
>>doing most things in Midi.
>>1.Does anyone have experience with said device? Including the
>>soundboard?
>
>Scott, You should check into the Digital Guitar Group. Paolo is on this
>list and I'm sure will  provide you with information on how to join.
>
>
>Patrick
>
>Now Available:
>                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE
>
>            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT
>
>"fascinating aural images...luminous portraits of sound & vision..." Outburn 8
>
>                            www.fingerpaint.net  
>
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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I recently purchased an Axon AX-100SB, which I am playing with my Godin LGXT electric.  I am extremely pleased (read "blown away") by the performance of both the Axon and the Godin.  The AX-100 has no problem keeping up with my fastest runs, and it truly excels at picking up those subtleties of guitar playing, such as various degrees of string muting, which makes it killer for funk, for instance.

I also belong to the Digital Guitar Forum; you may want to read my recent post to that list concerning the AX-100SB.  I also posted a list of all the Axon dealers in the US.

Steve Delgado  
--

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:08:00   Patrick Smith wrote:
>On 1/26/99 Scott said:
>
>>In particular I've been looking at the Axon system and
>>doing most things in Midi.
>>1.Does anyone have experience with said device? Including the
>>soundboard?
>
>Scott, You should check into the Digital Guitar Group. Paolo is on this
>list and I'm sure will  provide you with information on how to join.
>
>
>Patrick
>
>Now Available:
>                      FingerPaint Primary Colors: BLUE
>
>            "can be edgy and intense as well as relaxing...." FAQT
>
>"fascinating aural images...luminous portraits of sound & vision..." Outburn 8
>
>                            www.fingerpaint.net  
>
>
>


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 14:05:08 1999
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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
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Subject: Re: Midi,analogue,effects,effects,effects..
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:43:08 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <v01520d00b2d3974a0f4f@[209.67.210.69]> from "Patrick Smith" at Jan 26, 99 07:08:00 pm
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> On 1/26/99 Scott said:
> 
> >In particular I've been looking at the Axon system and
> >doing most things in Midi.
> >1.Does anyone have experience with said device? Including the
> >soundboard?
> 
> Scott, You should check into the Digital Guitar Group. Paolo is on this
> list and I'm sure will  provide you with information on how to join.

<Paolo sees his cue>

It's pretty simple.  Just go to the web page in my .sig below and fill 
out the little form.  Be sure to read the page while you're at it so
that you are aware of the subscription options.


Paolo Valladolid
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list	|\ 
|for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments 			| \
 ----------------------------------------------------------------  |
\  To subscribe, go to the web page below:		 	 \ |
 \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/subscribe.html	  \| 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 16:53:45 1999
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Shall there be a predetermined LD meeting place/time for those of us at
the show?  Be kind of silly to have another situation like the one at
the Torn concert last year, where there were five or six of us in the
same room but nobody knew it!

--A

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 17:23:23 1999
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Subject: looking for roland vs 1680??
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hey grettings from nyc i'm lookin for a used roland vs 1680..... also i
was wondering if i can use my p.c. to harddrive multitrack its only a
166 mhz cpu any software suggestions? my mother board can only go up to
233....thanx for your time.... devin

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 17:29:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:09:27 -0500
From: "Dennis W. Leas" <dennis@mdbs.com>
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OK, this is my first time making a promotional announcement on the
list.  Please bear with me.

Loopage (solo percussion, etc.) on Saturday.  Here's the gory details:
----------------------------------------

Date:  Saturday, January 30, 1999
Time:  7:00 PM to 9:30 PM (it may go later)

Place: Lighthouse Galleria and Bookstore
       210 S. Main St.
       Crown Point, IN
Phone: (219) 663-6398
----------------------------------------
Crown Point is in "the region" near Chicago.
If anybody wants more details, directions, etc., please e-mail me
privately.

Thank you and we now return you to your regularly scheduled
program...

- Dennis Leas
--
dennis@mdbs.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 17:55:33 1999
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From: Thomas Rupolo <TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com>
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Subject: Midnight Meltdown
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:33:00 -0500
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I don't get a chance to strut my looping stuff live in NYC all that
often, so if anyone wants to hear what one Echoplex, a Dr. Sample and a
cheap Casio Keyboard can do, come on down !

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You are invited to Mojo's
MIDNIGHTMELTDOWN
a  p a r t y  +  p e r f o r m a n c e
featuring
live ambient soundscapes, loops
+ free improvisations by:
Mike Rose - Sax
James Keepnews - Guitar, Loops (EH 16sec.)
Tom Rupolo - Keys & Loops
Mark Johnson - Gtr and soundscapes

multi-projector visual environment by
TOTAL ECLIPSE MULTIMEDIA

plus TOMMY T spins 
 t r a n c e - l o u n g e
Friday 2/5 11:30pm-4am
@ CINEMA CLASSICS
60 seat movie theatre & cafe
located on
E11th st. btwn 1st & 2nd ave.
only $5 at the door
g u a r a n t e e d  t o  b l o w  y o u r  m i n d


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 17:58:02 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:42:44 EST
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My ennui has been eleviated recently by playing with a charming delay mode on
my VG-8 that I have totally failed to find emulated anywhere else in my FX
arsenal---which is surprising, since most of my other gear has a delay mode
that is called something similar to what the V calls it: Cross (or Cross
Feedback) Delay. On the V, you set up a main delay and a right or left delay
with different times, so you get a sort of rhythm, such as 372ms and 596ms.
The cool part is that the repeats (with a high feedback) come back like this: 
*.............*.....*.............*.............*.....*.............*.........
....*.....*.............*.............*....*, etc. 
On every other device I have that claims to do "cross delay," the full pattern
is maintained only on the first go-round:
*.............*.....*.............*.....*.............*.....*.............*...
..*, etc., 
which is obviousy more boring. Does anyone know of a delay that will duplicate
the VG version  of Cross Delay, but with a longer max time than 1000ms?
I was certain my Korg DL8000R would do the trick, but no...
It's a delightful way to build complex rhythms quickly from very sparse
events; appreciate any clues...
dpc

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 18:01:27 1999
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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
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Subject: Re: NAMM gathering
To: altruist@earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:51:54 -0800 (PST)
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In-Reply-To: <36AF8877.6756@earthlink.net> from "Andre LaFosse" at Jan 27, 99 01:43:19 pm
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> Shall there be a predetermined LD meeting place/time for those of us at
> the show?  Be kind of silly to have another situation like the one at
> the Torn concert last year, where there were five or six of us in the
> same room but nobody knew it!
> 
> --A

I'll be at La Vee Lee on thursday night to watch Stick Night featuring
a busload of Stick players.  Tony Levin posted on his website that he
may be in attendance even though he will not perform.  

I'm going to NAMM as a guest of Stick Enterprises so I'll be around that
booth (of course I'll be all over teh place like the rest of y'all :)).

Anyway, go ahead and set a time, guys!

Paolo

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 18:00:19 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:47:55 +0100
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While we're on a few of these threads, I wanted to ask if any of you
loopers have tried any fractal software such as FractMus (PC freeware):

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/4386/ 

I've used this to generate some wild MIDI sequences which I'm beginning
to use in my MPC2000. All in all, it's a lot of fun for a bit of
freeware (8 different algorithms including Morse-Thuse etc.). I do
believe there is a lot of similar software available, though.  

Are any of you using these ideas for your stuff? I know that people like
Autechre and Funkstörung have been using algorithmically generated
sequences. Autechre, for example, bring their Powerbooks on stage and
play around with the algorithm parameters to make subtle variations to
their "songs".

I thought I'd check with you seeing as we're dealing with "Change
Ringing" (thanks Dennis!) and the various Greg Meredith posts (thanks
too!).

rob
-the man cable-




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From: Rik Myers <zanga@mindspring.com>
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Hi David

>My ennui has been eleviated recently by playing with a charming delay mode on
>my VG-8 that I have totally failed to find emulated anywhere else in my FX
>arsenal---which is surprising, since most of my other gear has a delay mode
>that is called something similar to what the V calls it: Cross (or Cross
>Feedback) Delay. On the V, you set up a main delay and a right or left delay
>with different times, so you get a sort of rhythm, such as 372ms and 596ms.

Hmm, I haven't sniffed this one out of the VG-8. Care to walk me (us)
through it? (Loop content) Bet it would sound extra deluxe layered over a
loop (whew!).

Hasta -> Rico

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In a message dated 1/27/99 11:01:49 PM, you wrote:

<<Are any of you using these ideas for your stuff? I know that people like

Autechre and Funkst=F6rung have been using algorithmically generated

sequences. Autechre, for example, bring their Powerbooks on stage and

play around with the algorithm parameters to make subtle variations to

their "songs".>>

Not for performance yet but for "jump starting" the creative juices I'll
sometimes generate/tweak fractals in Kai Power Tools, import them into
Metasynth, do some more tweakage, etc. etc. Good diversion from the finger=
s on
strings thing.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 19:58:21 1999
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From: "Douglas Lawrence" <douglas-lawrence@home.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: looking for roland vs 1680??
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:50:15 -0500
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There's a guy in PA who's importing them, setting them up, and selling them
for only a couple hundred more than his cost, which means you save $400-500
from retail

Check out ...
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/5470/index.html


-----Original Message-----
From: P Powdwer Productions [mailto:ppproductions@ccjonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:56 PM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: looking for roland vs 1680??


hey grettings from nyc i'm lookin for a used roland vs 1680..... also i
was wondering if i can use my p.c. to harddrive multitrack its only a
166 mhz cpu any software suggestions? my mother board can only go up to
233....thanx for your time.... devin


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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:10:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Unit Circle Media <unitcirc@unitcircle.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Dual Loop Techniques
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On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Kim Flint wrote:
> 
> Actually, I think it would be a great idea for a set of tutorial web pages
> on the Looper's Delight site, with audio examples. Any volunteers want to
> take it on? Remember, volunteers are what make this whole thing work, don't
> hesitate to jump in there and add something of your own!

I don't know if I'm up for the task of writing the tutorial, but I have a
large set of short samples using this technique that I could
Real-Audio-ify and put up on my server.

	Kevin

Kevin Goldsmith				kevin@unitcircle.com
Unit Circle Media			http://www.unitcircle.com/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Wed Jan 27 21:46:36 1999
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From: Dpcoffin@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:36:29 EST
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>> ....Cross (or Cross
>>Feedback) Delay. On the V, you set up a main delay and a right or left delay
>>with different times, so you get a sort of rhythm, such as 372ms and 596ms.
>
>Hmm, I haven't sniffed this one out of the VG-8. Care to walk me (us)
>through it? (Loop content) Bet it would sound extra deluxe layered over a
>loop (whew!).
>
>Hasta -> Rico
Couldn't be simpler. Go to the delay page, dial up Cross-FB type, set feedback
around 96, Level more than 50%, then any two different times for the delay,
keeping the Time amount under the max of 1023 (below 800 seems to work) and
the R or L up around 250 to the max of 511 (try R371, T750). Push up the
totals and the tap goes away. Then feed the thing little percussive events,
snaps, etc...
>From the Delay page, keep the Feedback Param. hi-lited and you can adjust the
amount using the SW1 and Sw2 switches, if you've got 'em set right at the
system level. I described this in the text of a patch set available at
vg-8.com called LOOPClas, and there are patches using it under that heading,
natch.  
enjoy...
dpc

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 00:56:56 1999
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From: Nemoguitt@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:50:24 EST
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In a message dated 1/27/99 9:02:57 PM Mid-Atlantic Standard Time,
pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu writes:

<<  Shall there be a predetermined LD meeting place/time for those of us at
 > the show?  Be kind of silly to have another situation like the one at
 > the Torn concert last year, where there were five or six of us in the
 > same room but nobody knew it!
 >  >>

thus the need for really big looper delite hats.........michael

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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:05:33 -0800
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com>
Subject: Re: NAMM gathering
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I'm definitely up for a NAMM get-together. I'm leaving fo LA early thursday,
so I guess if any resolution happens to this, I'm not gonna see it. So I'll
just propose a meeting Saturday, 1:30 at the Stick booth (since Paolo
mentioned that one....). We can get some lunch or something. Hope to see you
there.....

kim


At 02:51 PM 1/27/99 -0800, Paolo Valladolid wrote:
>> Shall there be a predetermined LD meeting place/time for those of us at
>> the show?  Be kind of silly to have another situation like the one at
>> the Torn concert last year, where there were five or six of us in the
>> same room but nobody knew it!
>> 
>> --A
>
>I'll be at La Vee Lee on thursday night to watch Stick Night featuring
>a busload of Stick players.  Tony Levin posted on his website that he
>may be in attendance even though he will not perform.  
>
>I'm going to NAMM as a guest of Stick Enterprises so I'll be around that
>booth (of course I'll be all over teh place like the rest of y'all :)).
>
>Anyway, go ahead and set a time, guys!
>
>Paolo
>
>
>
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint, MTS		       408-752-9284
ATI Research	       kflint@chromatic.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 01:40:33 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:23:25 -0500
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From: Doug Wyatt <doug@sonosphere.com>
Subject: Re: NAMM gathering
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At 22:05 -0800 1/27/99, Kim Flint wrote:
> I'm definitely up for a NAMM get-together. I'm leaving fo LA early thursday,
> so I guess if any resolution happens to this, I'm not gonna see it. So I'll
> just propose a meeting Saturday, 1:30 at the Stick booth (since Paolo
> mentioned that one....). We can get some lunch or something. Hope to see you
> there.....

Thanks, Kim, I was hoping someone would just come up with a time and place
... my flight is in 5 hours.

See you (collectively) there, then, my sanity permitting.

Doug


--
Doug Wyatt                             doug@sonosphere.com
Sonosphere (electric/improv music)     http://www.sonosphere.com/


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 03:34:38 1999
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From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
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Subject: Re: NAMM gathering
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:28:25 -0800 (PST)
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> I'm definitely up for a NAMM get-together. I'm leaving fo LA early thursday,
> so I guess if any resolution happens to this, I'm not gonna see it. So I'll
> just propose a meeting Saturday, 1:30 at the Stick booth (since Paolo
> mentioned that one....). We can get some lunch or something. Hope to see you
> there.....
> 
> kim

Hmm... Michael Manring is scheduled at 1pm that day, but supposedly Zon usually
has a booth next door to Stick Enterprises, sooo....

I hear these concerts never last more than 15 min. so I should make it.
I guess I'll try wearing my SD (Padres) baseball cap again (please don't
kill me if you're a Dodger fan, it's just my form of identification to other
listers. :)).

Paolo 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 04:10:59 1999
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Reply-To: <gnominus@earthling.net>
From: "Javier Miranda V." <gnominus@earthling.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Dual Loop Techniques
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:04:36 -0800
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Kim et al,

I volunteer again to HTML the pages.  If anybody wants to coordinate with me
the step-by-step stuff, the graphics, etc., I'll link up everything.

Javier

-----Original Message-----
From: Unit Circle Media [mailto:unitcirc@unitcircle.com]
Sent: Wednesday 27 January 1999 6:10 PM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Dual Loop Techniques


On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Kim Flint wrote:
>
> Actually, I think it would be a great idea for a set of tutorial web pages
> on the Looper's Delight site, with audio examples. Any volunteers want to
> take it on? Remember, volunteers are what make this whole thing work,
don't
> hesitate to jump in there and add something of your own!

I don't know if I'm up for the task of writing the tutorial, but I have a
large set of short samples using this technique that I could
Real-Audio-ify and put up on my server.

	Kevin

Kevin Goldsmith				kevin@unitcircle.com
Unit Circle Media			http://www.unitcircle.com/


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 04:36:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:35:15 -0600
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From: Chuck Zwicky <chuck.zwicky@wavefront.com>
Subject: Tap-Tempo delay stompbox?
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Has anyone run across a delay stompbox with a tap-tempo feature?

-Chuck Zwicky


...........................................................................
But they are useless. They can only give you answers. -Picasso, on 
computers.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 05:08:57 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:01:10 +0000
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From: David.Orton@mail.bl.uk (David Orton)
Subject: Looping near London [UK]; & transatlantic loop update
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     Hi all
     
     Brief publicity blurb:
     ======================
     
     I've been invited to fill the Croydon ClockTower atrium with sound 
     this Saturday (30th) as interim entertainment for the film goers at 
     the Croydon Film Festival. Details, times, map etc via:
     <http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/or387751>
     
     A number of recent MP3 files can now be downloaded via: 
     <http://www.mp3.com/music/Instrumental/5895.html>
     
     Transatlantic loop update:
     ==========================
     
     Another example of my on-going collaboration with fellow list member, 
     James H Sidlo, is now available via:
     <http://www.mp3.com/music/Instrumental/5894.html>
     
     Thanks for your time!
     
     Cheers
     
     David
     

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 10:47:53 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:36:14 -0500
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: David Myers <dmgraph@pulsewidth.com>
Subject: Laptops (off topic)
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After dissing the computer for music use for years, I'm finally getting
into it on my Mac.  But I may be interested in a PC for business reasons,
and if I could get a laptop that I could do music performance with, now
that would be interesting.

Question: anybody have experience with PC laptops for music?  Would want to
use at least ReBirth on it and get quality audio out; little concern about
MIDI.  Or: can someone point me to a list where I might get answers?
Thanks to all....

David Myers


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 11:46:49 1999
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From: "William A. Cummings" <billcumm@sprynet.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Laptops (off topic)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:27:36 -0600
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Brian Smithers maintains a web site that covers making music with notebook
computers, so check that out at     http://members.aol.com/notebooks1


-----Original Message-----
From:	David Myers [mailto:dmgraph@pulsewidth.com]
Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 9:36 AM
To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject:	Laptops (off topic)

After dissing the computer for music use for years, I'm finally getting
into it on my Mac.  But I may be interested in a PC for business reasons,
and if I could get a laptop that I could do music performance with, now
that would be interesting.

Question: anybody have experience with PC laptops for music?  Would want to
use at least ReBirth on it and get quality audio out; little concern about
MIDI.  Or: can someone point me to a list where I might get answers?
Thanks to all....

David Myers

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Subject: RE: looking for roland vs 1680??
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 10:59:16 -0000
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From: Doug Tapia <dtapia@unoco.edu>
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>There's a guy in PA who's importing them, setting them up, and selling them
>for only a couple hundred more than his cost, which means you save $400-500
>from retail
>
>Check out ...
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/5470/index.html
>
Who pays retail?  My local (some would even say overpriced) sells VS 
1680s every day for $2399.00.  This same store is a service center for 
Roland products, and the folks know the stuff they're selling (and none 
of their units fell off the back of a truck.)  Once again folks, support 
your local dealer, as I'm sure they can cut you a deal at least this good 
if you JUST ASK.

happy looping,

-doug

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 13:55:15 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:39:11 -0500
From: Daniel Ferguson <breakz@hom.net>
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Subject: Re: Tap-Tempo delay stompbox?
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Check out the Boss DD-5 Digital Delay stomp box. You need a external foot
switch to tap.



Daniel Ferguson

Chuck Zwicky wrote:

> Has anyone run across a delay stompbox with a tap-tempo feature?
>
> -Chuck Zwicky
>

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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:20:50 -0200
From: Alexandre Tavares Frias <atfrias@ibm.net>
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Chuck Zwicky wrote:

> Has anyone run across a delay stompbox with a tap-tempo feature?
>
> -Chuck Zwicky
>
> .............
> .............................................................
> But they are useless. They can only give you answers. -Picasso, on
> computers.

   The Zoom 508  has this function available if you plug an external
footswitch.
It is very programable and have 4 seconds of delay or looping and has
the cool
abilitym of simulate the loss of high frequency content in echo repeats.

Excelent along my JamMan, GR-1, ME-5 and other fx's or as a mini looping

setup with 505 and an inseparable E-bow.

Alex Frias.

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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:34:21 -0800
From: lance glover <baumhaus@earthlink.net>
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Dpcoffin@aol.com wrote:

> My ennui has been eleviated recently by playing with a charming delay mode on
> my VG-8 that I have totally failed to find emulated anywhere else in my FX
> arsenal---which is surprising, since most of my other gear has a delay mode
> that is called something similar to what the V calls it: Cross (or Cross
> Feedback) Delay. On the V, you set up a main delay and a right or left delay
> with different times, so you get a sort of rhythm, such as 372ms and 596ms.
> The cool part is that the repeats (with a high feedback) come back like this:
> *.............*.....*.............*.............*.....*.............*.........
> ....*.....*.............*.............*....*, etc.
> On every other device I have that claims to do "cross delay," the full pattern
> is maintained only on the first go-round:
> *.............*.....*.............*.....*.............*.....*.............*...
> ..*, etc.,
> which is obviousy more boring. Does anyone know of a delay that will duplicate
> the VG version  of Cross Delay, but with a longer max time than 1000ms?
> I was certain my Korg DL8000R would do the trick, but no...
> It's a delightful way to build complex rhythms quickly from very sparse
> events; appreciate any clues...
> dpc



you've piqued my interest, mate. i know a number of patches made their way to the
roland VS880 from the VG8. i'll do a little pecking around on the '880 tonight to
see if i can't replicate what you've found.

thanks for the tip,

lance g.



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 15:09:42 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:51:41 +0000
From: Colin Jenkinson <jeancolin@earthlink.net>
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yes ,

The Boss DD5.

Colin|niloC

PS The box makes wonderful noises when it's battery dies.

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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:44:22 +1000
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Simon <simon@dynamite.com.au>
Subject: New Akai delay pedal-E1 Headrush Tap Delay/Tape Echo
 Simulator/Looping Recorder
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I'm not into looping myself, but I'm guessing that some of you may be
interested in the new Akai delay pedal being released this weekend at the
NAMM show.

The info is from the Akaipro website at...

http://www.akai.com/akaipro/namm99.html

and

http://www.akai.com/akaipro/press/9901-FX.html

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


E1 Headrush Tap Delay / Tape Echo Simulator / Looping Recorder

16 bit Digital Delay - Delay time from 0.5ms to 23.8sec
Tape Echo mode with 4 tape-head parallel outputs for amplifier or mixer inputs.
Simulates an analog 4-head tape echo machine
Looping Recorder with overdub mode - Powerful tool for solo performances
Max. Recording time is 11.9 sec for loop recording
HEAD GAP adjusts the delay time between the heads
Delay time is from 10ms to 5.9 sec
HF Damp simulates an analog delay sound
Feedback sets the feedback level for repeat times
Ratio allows adjustment of wet and dry mix
Dynamic delay control - sets the delay time by tapping the footswitch twice
True Bypass


AKAI INTRODUCES A NEW LINE OF EFFECTS PEDALS

(January 1999) FORT WORTH, Texas - Akai, a
recognized leader in the design and manufacture of
innovative audio products, introduced the new line of guitar
effects pedals at the January 1999 NAMM show in booth
#4373.

Slated for delivery in February 1999, the five new effects
pedals combine the best vintage sounds with today's feature
options in a stylish and easy-to-use design.

The Akai Headrush is the first effects pedal offering a high
quality sound delay, tape echo simulator and a looping
recorder in one. User selectable delay options allow for
maximum control of signal output and include several
timing and level adjustment selections as well as the
feedback level for repeats. Headrush also simulates an
analog tape echo machine, providing four tape-head parallel
outputs for amplifier or mixer input, while the looping
recorder with overdub mode is a powerful tool for the solo
musician.

Headrush features left and right foot switch controls and
LED display. Depending upon which mode is selected, the
left switch controls the on/off and play/stop functions, while
the right side sets desired delay time, recording and overdub
options. The LED display indicates which effect in use and
blinks in time showing the delay time selected. Suggested
retail price of the Akai Headrush is $259.00.


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From: Thomas Rupolo <TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com>
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Subject: RE: Desktops (off topic)
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This is good info to have. Is there any such site for desktop PCs or
Macs that anyone knows of?

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	William A. Cummings [SMTP:billcumm@sprynet.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 12:28 PM
> To:	TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com
> Subject:	RE: Laptops (off topic)
> 
> Brian Smithers maintains a web site that covers making music with
> notebook
> computers, so check that out at     http://members.aol.com/notebooks1
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	David Myers [mailto:dmgraph@pulsewidth.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 9:36 AM
> To:	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject:	Laptops (off topic)
> 
> After dissing the computer for music use for years, I'm finally
> getting
> into it on my Mac.  But I may be interested in a PC for business
> reasons,
> and if I could get a laptop that I could do music performance with,
> now
> that would be interesting.
> 
> Question: anybody have experience with PC laptops for music?  Would
> want to
> use at least ReBirth on it and get quality audio out; little concern
> about
> MIDI.  Or: can someone point me to a list where I might get answers?
> Thanks to all....
> 
> David Myers

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	 Simulator/Looping Recorder
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Interesting place to find a comment from someone who is "not into looping"...  :o]

Cheers,
Jim

Simon wrote:

> I'm not into looping myself, but I'm guessing that some of you may be
> interested in the new Akai delay pedal being released this weekend at the
> NAMM show.
>
> The info is from the Akaipro website at...
>
> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/namm99.html
>
> and
>
> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/press/9901-FX.html
>
> Simon
> Canberra
> AUSTRALIA
>
> E1 Headrush Tap Delay / Tape Echo Simulator / Looping Recorder
>
> 16 bit Digital Delay - Delay time from 0.5ms to 23.8sec
> Tape Echo mode with 4 tape-head parallel outputs for amplifier or mixer inputs.
> Simulates an analog 4-head tape echo machine
> Looping Recorder with overdub mode - Powerful tool for solo performances
> Max. Recording time is 11.9 sec for loop recording
> HEAD GAP adjusts the delay time between the heads
> Delay time is from 10ms to 5.9 sec
> HF Damp simulates an analog delay sound
> Feedback sets the feedback level for repeat times
> Ratio allows adjustment of wet and dry mix
> Dynamic delay control - sets the delay time by tapping the footswitch twice
> True Bypass
>
> AKAI INTRODUCES A NEW LINE OF EFFECTS PEDALS
>
> (January 1999) FORT WORTH, Texas - Akai, a
> recognized leader in the design and manufacture of
> innovative audio products, introduced the new line of guitar
> effects pedals at the January 1999 NAMM show in booth
> #4373.
>
> Slated for delivery in February 1999, the five new effects
> pedals combine the best vintage sounds with today's feature
> options in a stylish and easy-to-use design.
>
> The Akai Headrush is the first effects pedal offering a high
> quality sound delay, tape echo simulator and a looping
> recorder in one. User selectable delay options allow for
> maximum control of signal output and include several
> timing and level adjustment selections as well as the
> feedback level for repeats. Headrush also simulates an
> analog tape echo machine, providing four tape-head parallel
> outputs for amplifier or mixer input, while the looping
> recorder with overdub mode is a powerful tool for the solo
> musician.
>
> Headrush features left and right foot switch controls and
> LED display. Depending upon which mode is selected, the
> left switch controls the on/off and play/stop functions, while
> the right side sets desired delay time, recording and overdub
> options. The LED display indicates which effect in use and
> blinks in time showing the delay time selected. Suggested
> retail price of the Akai Headrush is $259.00.



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 17:31:38 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:58:38 EST
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perhaps he plays a looper on tv? =-) PJ

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 17:51:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:37:21 +0100
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	 Simulator/Looping Recorder
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Oh boy, that's going to be real show-stealer on this list. That's the
first new looper in quite a while ...

Rob

Simon schrieb:
> 
> I'm not into looping myself, but I'm guessing that some of you may be
> interested in the new Akai delay pedal being released this weekend at the
> NAMM show.
> 
> The info is from the Akaipro website at...
> 
> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/namm99.html
> 
> and
> 
> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/press/9901-FX.html
> 
> Simon
> Canberra
> AUSTRALIA
> 
> E1 Headrush Tap Delay / Tape Echo Simulator / Looping Recorder
> 
> 16 bit Digital Delay - Delay time from 0.5ms to 23.8sec
> Tape Echo mode with 4 tape-head parallel outputs for amplifier or mixer inputs.
> Simulates an analog 4-head tape echo machine
> Looping Recorder with overdub mode - Powerful tool for solo performances
> Max. Recording time is 11.9 sec for loop recording
> HEAD GAP adjusts the delay time between the heads
> Delay time is from 10ms to 5.9 sec
> HF Damp simulates an analog delay sound
> Feedback sets the feedback level for repeat times
> Ratio allows adjustment of wet and dry mix
> Dynamic delay control - sets the delay time by tapping the footswitch twice
> True Bypass
> 
> AKAI INTRODUCES A NEW LINE OF EFFECTS PEDALS
> 
> (January 1999) FORT WORTH, Texas - Akai, a
> recognized leader in the design and manufacture of
> innovative audio products, introduced the new line of guitar
> effects pedals at the January 1999 NAMM show in booth
> #4373.
> 
> Slated for delivery in February 1999, the five new effects
> pedals combine the best vintage sounds with today's feature
> options in a stylish and easy-to-use design.
> 
> The Akai Headrush is the first effects pedal offering a high
> quality sound delay, tape echo simulator and a looping
> recorder in one. User selectable delay options allow for
> maximum control of signal output and include several
> timing and level adjustment selections as well as the
> feedback level for repeats. Headrush also simulates an
> analog tape echo machine, providing four tape-head parallel
> outputs for amplifier or mixer input, while the looping
> recorder with overdub mode is a powerful tool for the solo
> musician.
> 
> Headrush features left and right foot switch controls and
> LED display. Depending upon which mode is selected, the
> left switch controls the on/off and play/stop functions, while
> the right side sets desired delay time, recording and overdub
> options. The LED display indicates which effect in use and
> blinks in time showing the delay time selected. Suggested
> retail price of the Akai Headrush is $259.00.



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 18:18:18 1999
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From: Thomas Rupolo <TRUPOLO@rizzoliusa.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Reposting of NYC looping gig
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:03:57 -0500
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I posted this shameful plug yesterday but didn't see it. I apologize if
this is redundant...

I don't get a chance to strut my looping stuff live in NYC all that
often, so if anyone wants to hear what one Echoplex, a Dr. Sample and a
cheap Casio Keyboard can do, come on down !

You are invited to Mojo's
MIDNIGHTMELTDOWN
a  p a r t y  +  p e r f o r m a n c e
featuring:

live ambient soundscapes, loops
+ free improvisations by:
Mike Rose - Sax
James Keepnews - Guitar, Loops (EH 16sec.)
Tom Rupolo - Keys & Loops
Mark Johnson - Gtr and soundscapes

multi-projector visual environment by
TOTAL ECLIPSE MULTIMEDIA

plus TOMMY T spins 
 t r a n c e - l o u n g e

Friday 2/5 11:30pm-4am
@ CINEMA CLASSICS
60 seat movie theatre & cafe
located on
E11th st. btwn 1st & 2nd ave.
only $5 at the door
g u a r a n t e e d  t o  b l o w  y o u r  m i n d


 

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 20:25:55 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:13:08 -0600
From: Bobdog <psbuddha@texas.net>
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please don't get into a fight.

bobdog

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 20:31:51 1999
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From: james rhodes <sharkey@texas.net>
Subject: San Antonio radio show KSYM 90.1 FM Jan 28 9:00pm CST
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Hello any local list members that check their E-mail in the next couple hours.
Tonight I will be featuring some music from my 2 CDs, and some Theorem 5
live shows at 9:00pm CST on KSYM 90.1 Broadcasting from San Antonio College

its kind of a short notice thing,,but just in case..
tune in and take care

james

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From: "Douglas Lawrence" <douglas-lawrence@home.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Yamaha SU700 Announced At NAMM
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:46:36 -0500
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It's been a long time coming, so check it out ...

http://www.harmony-central.com/Newp/WNAMM99/Yamaha/SU700.html

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 22:19:47 1999
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From: "b.knox" <b.knox@latrobe.edu.au>
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, simon@dynamite.com.au
Subject: Re: New Akai delay pedal-E1 Headrush Tap Delay/Tape 
 EchoSimulator/Looping Recorder
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Hey Simon,

This thing looks very tasty indeed... is that $259 aus or u.s?

not into looping? a pity.. there a not that many of us in oz...

cheers, brad



Simon wrote:

>
> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/namm99.html
>
> and
>
> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/press/9901-FX.html
>
>
>
> E1 Headrush Tap Delay / Tape Echo Simulator / Looping Recorder
>
> 16 bit Digital Delay - Delay time from 0.5ms to 23.8sec
> Tape Echo mode with 4 tape-head parallel outputs for amplifier or mixer inputs.
> Simulates an analog 4-head tape echo machine
> Looping Recorder with overdub mode - Powerful tool for solo performances
> Max. Recording time is 11.9 sec for loop recording
> HEAD GAP adjusts the delay time between the heads
> Delay time is from 10ms to 5.9 sec
> HF Damp simulates an analog delay sound
> Feedback sets the feedback level for repeat times
> Ratio allows adjustment of wet and dry mix
> Dynamic delay control - sets the delay time by tapping the footswitch twice
> True Bypass

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 22:51:14 1999
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From: "Douglas Lawrence" <douglas-lawrence@home.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: looking for Roland vs 1680??
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:31:21 -0500
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>> My local (some would even say overpriced) sells VS 1680s
>> every day for $2399.00 Once again folks, support your
>> local dealer, as I'm sure they can cut you a deal at least
>> this good if you JUST ASK.

Yeah, but this guy can do about $2550 ~TOTAL~, including a 4 GB hard drive
and both effects cards. That's a very tough price to match, no matter how
much you ask your local retailer. In fact, I did, neither Sam Ash, 8th
Street Music, or Thoroughbred Music would match this deal. Is $400-500
savings worth it for you?

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 22:54:00 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:25:12 -0500 (EST)
From: wbf@aloft.micro.lucent.com (William_B_Fox)
Message-Id: <199901281825.NAA24400@badboy.micro.lucent.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, analogue@hyperreal.com
Subject: Re: EMS Help May be OT for some of you.
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Yo Fiveman,

> My EMS Synthi aks KS keyboard is not functioning properly.  I get
> low note and then another note an octave or so higher on every pressure
> point above.  I know how to use it so please no brush offs. . The
> sequencer functions but there is nothing to store but two notes.  I
> needed this unit for a project  I know that practical applications of

Try Rich Marshall at mailto:arcsound@ix.netcom.com for general analog
synth repairs.  Perhaps he can help you.

Bill	home: billfox@fast.net	work: BillFox@lucent.com
==============================================================================
Host of Emusic, an electronic, ambient, and space music show.  Thursdays at
11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem and 93.9 FM in Easton and
Phillipsburg.  Email me if you wish to submit music for airplay consideration.
==============================================================================
My radio show:	http://wdiyfm.org
My band site:	http://www.crosswinds.net/allentown/~shadowplay

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Thu Jan 28 23:42:57 1999
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From: M3chakucha@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:28:42 EST
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Dear all,

Check out this e-group:  pc-daw@missionrec.com / pc-daw-digest-
subscribe@missionrec.com

They should be able to help out as far as questions go for Audio on PC's...

Lee-ohki.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 00:17:02 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:13:28 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Travis Weller <tcweller@purity.com>
Subject: Dumping EDP samples to Akai
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Hello,

Has anyone out there successfully dumped a loop from the EDP to an Akai S
Series Sampler? The documentation for this feature on both boxes is pretty
slim. I've been able to get a sample from the Akai (S3000XL) to the EDP,
but the other way around still eludes me.

I'd rather not use the computer as a middleman, but is anyone doing it that
way?

Thanks,
Travis.


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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:17:39 -0600
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From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
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Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it!
Sincerely,
Jeff McLeod

At 06:32 PM 1/26/99 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Jeff,
>
>	Haven't tried that one out yet, but it looks like it could be super cool.
>The tunings that I've worked with on a 12-string Steinberger guitar have
been:
>Ee Aa Dd Gg BB EE
>Eg Ac Df  Gb BB EE
>Dd Aa Dd Gg AA DD
>Dg Ad Da Gd Ad DD
>Dg Ad Dg Gc AA DD   often gets changed to AA AA or CC CC
>Cc Gg Dd Aa GG GG  often gets changed to DD DD
>
>Sometimes I use these on a 6 string, also a graphite neck so as to keep from
>breaking anything!  LOL!  Now if only I had a harp guitar like what Michael
>Hedges used with the appropriate synthesizer pickups...  Sigh...  I can dream
>can't I?
>
>Hope this helps out a bit.
>Tchus,
>Lee-ohki.
>
>
>
> 
>
>
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 01:06:19 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:56:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Bret <echoplex@yahoo.com>
Subject: OT: VS-1680, VS-880, VG-8 Roland Virtual
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
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I must agree that I have been able to buy Roland VS880, VS880 case,
VG8, S-1 upgrade from my local Roland dealer at prices that were
better than mailorder.  He always matches or beats anything I find in
the catalogs or 800 numbers, and it is in stock.  I send my friends
there, he does the same for them (3 vs880s, 3 vg-8 systems). 

This, and he let's me take equipment home for the weekend to see if I
want it or not.  I found that developing rapore with the owner has
truly paid off.  (Some of) These guys are businessmen.  Sure, maybe I
had to squeeze him a little at first, to show him I was serious.  Now,
it is quite straightforward with him.  He has cut me some sweet deals.  

Some people understand how to get repeat business.  If you can't find
one locally, then use the web or 800 numbers.  

bret
---Doug Tapia <dtapia@unoco.edu> wrote:
>
> 
> >There's a guy in PA who's importing them, setting them up, and
selling them
> >for only a couple hundred more than his cost, which means you save
$400-500
> >from retail
> >
> >Check out ...
> >http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/5470/index.html
> >
> Who pays retail?  My local (some would even say overpriced) sells VS 
> 1680s every day for $2399.00.  This same store is a service center
for 
> Roland products, and the folks know the stuff they're selling (and
none 
> of their units fell off the back of a truck.)  Once again folks,
support 
> your local dealer, as I'm sure they can cut you a deal at least this
good 
> if you JUST ASK.
> 
> happy looping,
> 
> -doug
> 
> 
 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 04:34:17 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:27:18 +0100
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I wonder if the new AKAI delay pedal-E1 headrush can record in loops
just as the Jamman does.

As it seems to be a 4-head tape echo simulator, may be it can also run
four spinning loops once a delay is tapped with the footswitch.

And if it is so, it could be a similar recording process to Jamman which
I was told was patented by Lexicon.

Infringement or not ?

Emmanuel
perille@club-internet.fr

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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:40:38 +1000
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Simon <simon@dynamite.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Akai delay pedal-E1 Headrush Tap Delay/Tape  
 EchoSimulator/Looping Recorder
Cc: b.knox@latrobe.edu.au
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>This thing looks very tasty indeed... is that $259 aus or u.s?

That would be $259US, the Akaipro web site is in the US, and the NAMM show
is as well.


>not into looping? a pity.. there a not that many of us in oz...

I've been lurking here for a while trying to get some information about old
tape echos like the Roland RE201/301 and the Maestro Echoplexes, but havn't
had much luck. I need some information on what model Echoplexes to look for!

My interest in them has been mainly for effects in recording my ever
growing collection of synths/drum machines and for use when recording demos
etc for friends, but I think I might try this looping/improvisation stuff
when I track one down or get something new like this Akai pedal.

How do you use the loopers in a live situation? do you start with a beat or
something, and set the looper to the length of the beat so it loops in
time, then layer other sounds over the top of that loop?

What other effects and things do you do with the looper, when using it in
this sort of live lopping situation?


Thanks
Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


>> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/namm99.html
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://www.akai.com/akaipro/press/9901-FX.html
>>
>>
>>
>> E1 Headrush Tap Delay / Tape Echo Simulator / Looping Recorder
>>
>> 16 bit Digital Delay - Delay time from 0.5ms to 23.8sec
>> Tape Echo mode with 4 tape-head parallel outputs for amplifier or mixer
>>inputs.
>> Simulates an analog 4-head tape echo machine
>> Looping Recorder with overdub mode - Powerful tool for solo performances
>> Max. Recording time is 11.9 sec for loop recording
>> HEAD GAP adjusts the delay time between the heads
>> Delay time is from 10ms to 5.9 sec
>> HF Damp simulates an analog delay sound
>> Feedback sets the feedback level for repeat times
>> Ratio allows adjustment of wet and dry mix
>> Dynamic delay control - sets the delay time by tapping the footswitch twice
>> True Bypass



From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 06:13:03 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:04:16 -0800
From: Clifford Novey <clifsound@earthlink.net>
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Anyone got their EDP order yet? I assume not as I expect to see posts
from those who finally get theirs. I am just pondering the expansion
simms I bought which are sitting here on my desk in front of me.
It is odd to think that these incredibly sterile and lifeless chips will
be holding such a dynamic and life filled thing (live music
performances) 128 full seconds of whatever you can play- as noisy or as
quiet- all on these tiny inanimate chips- Just seems an interesting
thing to think about seeing as all I HAVE are these darn chips!!!  ;)

I just got back from a great show- saw Steve Smith, Frank Gambale,
Dennis Chambers, Billy Sheehan... amazing- and I start talking to this
guy who came from the East coast to go to the NAMM show- but he makes it
sound like to get in you have to have the Ruby Slippers or something
just to get in- I thought you just bought a ticket at the door or
something- anyone help me out with the low down? I live like 15 min from
where it will be held and I wouldn't mind going.

Cliff

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Simon wrote:

> That would be $259US, the Akaipro web site is in the US, and the NAMM show
> is as well.

hee hee.. i realised this after i looked at the second site there.. i saw the
first site with the juicy picture and got a "headrush" so to speak. i guess
they'll retail here at about $500-600... erg

> I've been lurking here for a while trying to get some information about old
> tape echos like the Roland RE201/301 and the Maestro Echoplexes, but havn't
> had much luck. I need some information on what model Echoplexes to look for!
>

can't really help you there... i've seen a couple of ye-olde roland tape deals
around second hand shops etc, but they always seem overpriced (to me anyway)... i
think music box in melbourne has one at the moment... i dont know if they would
ship to canberra though...

http://www.musicbox.com.au

(ignore the always outdated stock list)


>
> My interest in them has been mainly for effects in recording my ever
> growing collection of synths/drum machines and for use when recording demos
> etc for friends, but I think I might try this looping/improvisation stuff
> when I track one down or get something new like this Akai pedal.
>
> How do you use the loopers in a live situation? do you start with a beat or
> something, and set the looper to the length of the beat so it loops in
> time, then layer other sounds over the top of that loop?

i very rarely start with a rhythm... just a length or phrase... it's almost
impossible to syncronise a non-midi looper (which it looks like the akai is) to a
beat--it'll drift after a few repititions depending on how long the loop is etc...
i guess you could do the sync thing with an edp (if you want to fork out aus$3000)

live my stuff is usually non-rhythmic.... lots of layers... just a guitar with
tons of effects... if a rhythm emerges and it works, then cool.. if not, then
cool... i find that starting from a fairly short loop is usually best for the
"emerging rhythm" phenomenon... letting the loop dictate the beat can be killer..
but if your rhythm is "set" with a drum machine or whatever you'll eventually have
to think of the loop as being independent-- which can be just as killer.

as they say, you'll never know till you try... (trying to buy a looper in oz is
another story though.. maybe this akai thing will be the only one reasonably
available here)

>
> What other effects and things do you do with the looper, when using it in
> this sort of live lopping situation?
>

just about anything i can get my hands on or around or up... hmmm having dreams of
pumping those four tape echo outputs into a digitech quad-4 ... which by the way
seems to have a nice little 5sec looper lurking in it... the manual is online(!)
at

http://www.digitech.com/quad/index.htm

anyone spare a few grand?

brad


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In a message dated 1/28/99 9:49:21 AM Central Standard Time,
dmgraph@pulsewidth.com writes:

<< After dissing the computer for music use for years, I'm finally getting
 into it on my Mac.  But I may be interested in a PC for business reasons,
 and if I could get a laptop that I could do music performance with, now
 that would be interesting.
 
 Question: anybody have experience with PC laptops for music?  ... David
Myers>>




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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:36:53 -0500
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Floyd Miller <floyd@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Dumping EDP samples to Computer (was Akai(
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b2d6f2127b32@[198.214.8.110]>
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At 11:13 PM 1/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>........
>
>I'd rather not use the computer as a middleman, but is anyone doing
>it that way?
>

I have saved EDP samples to my computer running Opcode Vision,
mainly to save and restore loops.

I suppose I could dump them from there into an Akai if I had one,
and perhaps into my K2000, bu tI haven't tried that yet.

**************** 
  ********** Floyd Miller
    ****** floyd@voicenet.com
      ** http://www.voicenet.com/~floyd

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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:34:20 EST
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 <<...Question: anybody have experience with PC laptops for music?  Would want
to
 use at least ReBirth on it and get quality audio out; little concern about
 MIDI.  Or: can someone point me to a list where I might get answers?
 Thanks to all....David Myers >>

First, I must tell you that I'm a Computer Dealer for 'the roof over me head
and some grub day job'.  Any decent Windows Laptop/Notebook will work just
fine.  I personally use a CTX Pentium 233 MMX for music on a daily basis.  It
has a good sound chipset and (like no other laptop I'm aware of) a built-in
Midi port.  No problems, no complaints with Re-Birth, Sound Forge, Cakewalk,
Cubase, etc.  I sell most brands of laptop, but the CTX is the real "bang for
the buck" machine".   If you're seriously looking, check out my website:
http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/Reiter  Because of licensing agreements, you
won't find any CTX's there.  E-mail me for prices on those and I'll get you
the best deal I can, (wholesale + 10%).  I apologize for the crass
commercialism of this message...  Keep on keepin on...Keep on keepin on...Keep
on keepin on... two, three, four...(now bring in the TR909) ;)

Bill 'Hawkeye' Reiter

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 08:23:27 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:14:10 -0500
From: "Dennis W. Leas" <dennis@mdbs.com>
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I read the press releaseon the new Akai delay pedal.  Sounds pretty 
cool!  Does anybody know if it produces a MIDI clock?

- Dennis Leas
-- 
dennis@mdbs.com

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Floyd Miller wrote:
> 
> I have saved EDP samples to my computer running Opcode Vision,
> mainly to save and restore loops.

Hi, Floyd!

I'm curious, how long does it take to transfer a loop.  If possible, 
could you give transfer times for two different loop lengths?  Say a 10 
second loop and a 20 second loop?  Is the upload and download time 
different?

- Dennis LEas
-- 
dennis@mdbs.com

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WDIY 88.1 FM "EMUSIC" Top 20 report to New Age Voice for January, 1999.
(Shows #95 to #98; 12/31/98 to 01/21/99)
Reported in alphabetical order by album title.
Compiled by Bill Fox, billfox@fast.net

ARTIST - ALBUM TITLE - LABEL
============================
Wendy Carlos - A Clockwork Orange - ESD
Synergy (Larry Fast) - Audion - Third Contact
Frank Van Bogaert - Colours - Ace Studio
Jeff Pearce - Daylight Slowly - Hypnos
Wendy Carlos - Digital Moonscapes - CBS
Steve Roach - Dreaming... Now, Then - Celestial Harmonies
Dweller At The Threshold - Dweller At The Threshold - Eurock
Redshift - Ether - Champagne Lake
Synergy (Larry Fast) - Games - Third Contact
Lambert - Inside Out - Spheric
VA - Is There Anybody Out There...? - Champagne Lakes/AD Music/SMD
Syndromeda - The Legacy of GOD - Groove
Chuck Wild - Liquid Mind III - Balance - Chuck Wild
Paul Nagle - Lore - SMD
Victor Cerullo - Ludus - Groove
RAMP - Nodular - Manikin
Ian Boddy - Rare Elements - Something Else
Paul Haslinger - Score - RGB/HoS
Spacecraft - Spacecraft - Lektronic Soundscapes
Wendy Carlos - Tales of Heaven & Hell - ESD

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 09:27:57 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:13:37 +0900
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Sunao Inami <cave@pop1.osk.3web.ne.jp>
Subject: Methods of MOOG ENDLESS
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Hi,

I made another one page of MOOG ENDLESS.

Please visit to
http://www.cavestudio.com/S+V/moog_endless_method.html

You can see our Real Video streaming methods from Kobe.

Also MOOG ENDLESS is here.
http://www.cavestudio.com/S+V/moog_endless.html

  Regards

  Sunao Inami


Work
E-mail                          webmaster@cavestudio.com
URL"CAVE Studio"         http://www.cavestudio.com
tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5025 Hyogo,Japan

Home
E-mail                          cave@osk.3web.ne.jp
tel&fax                         +81 794 89 5015 Hyogo,Japan

snail mail address       316 Ohshima
                                    Kuchiyokawa
                                    Miki City
                                    Hyogo
                                    Japan
                                    6730755



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Subject: Spin-17 THIS SUNDAY, NYC
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Gig Notice Alert!  Please Engage Spamming Apparati!
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%%%%%     S P I N - 1 7    T H I S     S U N D A Y      %%%%%%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Spin-17  at ABC no Rio   Sunday, Jan 31  8PM  New York City
156 Rivington St
(between Clinton and Suffolk,
2 blocks south of Houston/F Train at Delancy St)
(212) 254-3697, $3

Spin-17
PerFormIng     AdulT     MuSic     On    ChilDren=92S     ToyS
PerFormIng     ChilDren=92S     MuSic      On   AdulT     ToyS
with:
Ed Chang       Electronics, Sax, Guitar, Samples, Drums
Motoko Shimizu Voice, Toys, Drums, The Noise Machine

Spin-17 is performing once again in the NYC area after a brief Holiday =
rest
following their last whirlwind tour of the East Coast.  This time out,
they=92ll be exploring the boundaries of comic and novel, art and thou,=
 noise
and collusion.  Pollock, Kline, Rothko, Munch, Leiji Matsumoto - these =
are
some of the artists whose visual  work will be aurally interpreted as w=
ell
as the other co(s)mic/spiritual/cathartic enharmonic clack-squack pheno=
mena
that Spin-17 is known for.
(debut CD available at Downtown Music Gallery (211 E 5th St)and Kim's V=
ideo
on St Mark's)

Spin-17 has recently performed at the Trenton Avant Garde Festival in N=
J as
well  as  the  1st  & 2nd Annual "Fringe" Festivals in Philadelphia and=
 the
Chicago  Asian  American Jazz Festival.  They frequently play in NYC at=
 The
Knitting  Factory, The New Museum for Contemporary Art, and City Colleg=
e of
New  York, and in Spring of 1998 completed a 9-city tour of the Eastern=
 US.
This  fall  they  completed  another 8-city tour of the Northeastern US=
 and
will be touring the West coast in the Spring of 1999.
SPIN-17=92s debut CD release is now available from the Quodlibet Recodi=
ngs
label, based in NYC. and features their take on John Cage=92s "Aria" (w=
ith a
newly-generated "Plunderphonic" mix) as well as some good, fake "Drum &=

Bass" needle scratching.


Jack Wright and Friends will be joining us for this night as well on th=
e
second bill. %%%%%%%endtransmission%whirr%%%bzzt%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
=


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 11:20:38 1999
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 <000301be4a58$2b6c5510$87500218@cc1006472-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>
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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:52:02 +1000
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Simon <simon@dynamite.com.au>
Subject: Re: Dumping EDP samples to Computer (was Akai(
Cc: tcweller@purity.com
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>At 11:13 PM 1/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Hello,
>>
>>........
>>
>>I'd rather not use the computer as a middleman, but is anyone doing
>>it that way?
>>
>
>I have saved EDP samples to my computer running Opcode Vision,
>mainly to save and restore loops.
>
>I suppose I could dump them from there into an Akai if I had one,
>and perhaps into my K2000, bu tI haven't tried that yet.


If the EDP is just dumping it's samples as a generic MIDI sample dump, then
you should be able to transfer directly between any devices that support
MIDI sample dump without using a computer as a middleman.

You would just set the EDP to send a MIDI sample dump, and set the other
device to receive a MIDI sample dump, and vice versa when going the other
way. You would have to make sure they were both expecting the MIDI sample
dump on the same MIDI channel. Whether you initiate the sample dump from
the sending or receiving device depends on how the two devices handle it,
some devices can initiate the dump as sender and receiver, some can only
initiate the dump when being the sender.

Check the manuals of both devices for info on how to use MIDI sample dumps
in each device.


Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:59:08 -0500 (EST)
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			Playlist for "EMUSIC"

"Emusic," an electronic, ambient, and space music show, airs each Thursday
at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem, PA and 93.9 FM in
Easton, PA and Phillipsburg, NJ.  http://wdiyfm.org/schedule/s_emusic.html

		Show #99		January 28, 1999.
		Host: Bill Fox		http://wdiyfm.org
		billfox@fast.net

On this show, I concluded the month-long focus on electronic music
pioneer, Wendy Carlos.  For background information, please point your
web browser to the WDIY web site or visit the...

Wendy Carlos web site:	http://www.wendycarlos.com

The feature CD at midnight was "Sonic Seasonings +" on East Side
Digital.

ARTIST                  TRACK                    ALBUM (label)
======================= ======================== ==============================
11:00 pm
Synergy (Larry Fast)    Prairie Light         Metropolitan Suite (Third Contact)
MinistryOfInsideThings  Outer Limits Part 2      Live at the ICA (Synkronos)
Alexi                   Mystery                  The Mystery (Mazzeroth)
Steve Roach & Vir Unis  Gene Pool                Body Electric (Projekt)
Steve Roach & Vir Unis  Synaptic Gap             Body Electric (Projekt)
DwellerAtTheThreshold   Illumination (1 - 4)     DwellerAtTheThreshold (Eurock)
Liquid Mind           Lullaby for Grownups  Liquid Mind III/Balance (Chuck Wild)
Laocoon                 Molecular Streams        Immersion (PNR)

12:00 am
Wendy Carlos            Winter                   Sonic Seasonings + (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Winter (out-take)        Sonic Seasonings + (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Aurora Borealis          Sonic Seasonings + (ESD)
Wendy Carlos            Midnight Sun             Sonic Seasonings + (ESD)

1:00 am

 * = exerpt
VA = Various Artists (compilation)

On the next EMUSIC, I will begin a month-long focus on that synergistic
composer, Larry Fast and his Synergy (R) releases.  The feature CD at
midnight will be "Electronic Realizations for Rock Orchestra" on Third
Contact.

Please visit the WDIY web site and navigate through the schedule to the
EMUSIC pages.  Playlists for every show are there.  Hot links to artists
and labels can be found in the monthly focus section.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 12:15:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:51:49 -0600
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Travis Weller <tcweller@purity.com>
Subject: Re: Dumping EDP samples to Akai
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>>Has anyone out there successfully dumped a loop from the EDP to an Akai S
>>Series Sampler? The documentation for this feature on both boxes is pretty
>>slim. I've been able to get a sample from the Akai (S3000XL) to the EDP,
>>but the other way around still eludes me.
>>
>>I'd rather not use the computer as a middleman, but is anyone doing it that
>>way?

>If the EDP is just dumping it's samples as a generic MIDI sample dump, then
>you should be able to transfer directly between any devices that support
>MIDI sample dump without using a computer as a middleman.
>
>You would just set the EDP to send a MIDI sample dump, and set the other
>device to receive a MIDI sample dump, and vice versa when going the other
>way. You would have to make sure they were both expecting the MIDI sample
>dump on the same MIDI channel. Whether you initiate the sample dump from
>the sending or receiving device depends on how the two devices handle it,
>some devices can initiate the dump as sender and receiver, some can only
>initiate the dump when being the sender.
>
>Check the manuals of both devices for info on how to use MIDI sample dumps
>in each device.

Hmm. I have it set up just like it says in the manuals of both devices. The
Akai specifically says it will automatically recieve a dump when the other
device initiates a transfer. When I initiate a dump from the echoplex I can
see the Akai is receiving MIDI data. However, when the dump is completed,
nothing is different in Akai land.

I'm not quite sure about the channel. I have the echoplex set to MIDI
channel 1. I have the Akai on system exclusive channel 1. I know the
difference between Sysex channel and MIDI channel... but the Akai ->
echoplex transfer works correctly, so I must be doing something right. I
just don't know how to set or find out what the Sysex channel is on the
Echoplex. Unfourtunatly there is no mention of this in the manual... or the
faq... or the mailing list archive...

I would appriciate anyone's advice on this.

Thanks,
Travis.


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 12:25:58 1999
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From: Fmplautus@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:56:29 EST
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Hi Loopers:

Um, did I miss something?  The  link on the Looper's Delight page no longer
pops up a workable email address for Oberheim. 

My Echoplex is starting to get gnarly again about input, I'm going to swap
resistors, but I fear there might be something else going on.  Anybody know
how I can email Oberheim?

Best,
Kevin

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 13:19:23 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:04:48 -0800
To: simon@dynamite.com.au
From: landman@wco.com (Mark Landman)
Subject: Vintage Echo
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Simon,

Here's a link with info on many different old tape echos=8A

http://homepages.enterprise.net/greenworld/index.htm

Best-

Mark


>I've been lurking here for a while trying to get some information about old
>tape echos like the Roland RE201/301 and the Maestro Echoplexes, but havn't
>had much luck. I need some information on what model Echoplexes to look for=
!


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 13:30:21 1999
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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:52:21 +1000
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
From: Simon <simon@dynamite.com.au>
Subject: Re: Dumping EDP samples to Akai
Cc: tcweller@purity.com
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>>>Has anyone out there successfully dumped a loop from the EDP to an Akai S
>>>Series Sampler? The documentation for this feature on both boxes is pretty
>>>slim. I've been able to get a sample from the Akai (S3000XL) to the EDP,
>>>but the other way around still eludes me.
>>>
>>>I'd rather not use the computer as a middleman, but is anyone doing it that
>>>way?
>
>>If the EDP is just dumping it's samples as a generic MIDI sample dump, then
>>you should be able to transfer directly between any devices that support
>>MIDI sample dump without using a computer as a middleman.
>>
>>You would just set the EDP to send a MIDI sample dump, and set the other
>>device to receive a MIDI sample dump, and vice versa when going the other
>>way. You would have to make sure they were both expecting the MIDI sample
>>dump on the same MIDI channel. Whether you initiate the sample dump from
>>the sending or receiving device depends on how the two devices handle it,
>>some devices can initiate the dump as sender and receiver, some can only
>>initiate the dump when being the sender.
>>
>>Check the manuals of both devices for info on how to use MIDI sample dumps
>>in each device.
>
>Hmm. I have it set up just like it says in the manuals of both devices. The
>Akai specifically says it will automatically recieve a dump when the other
>device initiates a transfer. When I initiate a dump from the echoplex I can
>see the Akai is receiving MIDI data. However, when the dump is completed,
>nothing is different in Akai land.

Is there an option to initiate the EDP-Akai dump from the Akai instead of
the EDP, that is if the EDP supports initiation of the transfer from the
receiving device?


>I'm not quite sure about the channel. I have the echoplex set to MIDI
>channel 1. I have the Akai on system exclusive channel 1. I know the
>difference between Sysex channel and MIDI channel... but the Akai ->
>echoplex transfer works correctly, so I must be doing something right. I
>just don't know how to set or find out what the Sysex channel is on the
>Echoplex. Unfourtunatly there is no mention of this in the manual... or the
>faq... or the mailing list archive...

Maybe the EDP is accepting the dump on any channel, but sending on a
specific channel. I would have thought that if the EDP was set to channel
1, then it would send sysex out channel 1 and that the Akai would receive
it OK. Maybe you can set the EDP sysex MIDI channel to a different channel
than it's basic MIDI channel, I don't know I'm just guessing all this.

Maybe the Akai is receiving the MIDI data, but it just doesn't recognise
the EDP initiating the transfer, that's why I suggested trying to make the
Akai initiate as the receiving device.

If you have the time you could also try the setting the Akai to receive on
each of the 16 different MIDI channels, ie. try it 16 times at each
different Akai sysex channel, to see if the EDP is sending the sysex out a
different MIDI channel to it's basic MIDI channel setting. And if you have
even more time you could try the 16 MIDI channels with the EDP as the
initiator, as well as the 16 MIDI channels with the Akai as the initiator.


Maybe you could ask this question on the Akai sampler mailing list, it
might be a problem with the Akai in general and might happen with other
devices, and not a specific problem with the EDP.

Good luck,
Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 13:38:20 1999
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Date: 29 Jan 1999 17:56:46 -0000
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To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Dumping EDP samples to Computer (was Akai(
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You wrote:
> 
> Hi, Floyd!
> 
> I'm curious, how long does it take to transfer a loop.  If possible, 
> could you give transfer times for two different loop lengths?  Say a 10 
> second loop and a 20 second loop?  Is the upload and download time 
> different?

Jeeez I never timed it but I can tell you that it is not quick.
Off-hand I'll say that a 30 second loop took about an hour, but
I could be mistaken.  I'll try to do some timings for you over
the weekend.

 - Floyd

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Fri Jan 29 15:44:29 1999
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Subject: Re: Dumping  and Loading EDP samples
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It was written by someone:

> 
> >I'm not quite sure about the channel. I have the echoplex set to MIDI
> >channel 1. I have the Akai on system exclusive channel 1. I know the
> >difference between Sysex channel and MIDI channel...
> 
> Maybe the EDP is accepting the dump on any channel, but sending on a
> specific channel. I would have thought that if the EDP was set to channel
> 1, then it would send sysex out channel 1 and that the Akai would receive
> it OK. Maybe you can set the EDP sysex MIDI channel to a different channel
> than it's basic MIDI channel, I don't know I'm just guessing all this.
> 

It is my understanding that SysEx data is not channelized - no conecpt
of MIDI channels for SysEx as there is for note and controller data.
So if Sample Dump data is a subset of SysEx then the EDP should accept
a sample dump regardless of it's midi channel setting.  Likewise, when
it sends a Sample Dump it sould be received at the other other without
regards to MIDI channel settings.

If I'm wrong please correct me (but gently).

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 11:56:07 1999
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Subject: JamMan FS
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 10:51:42 -0500
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Someone's got to want this (from Harmony Central):




Lexicon Jamman, maxed RAM w/. Custom OS

Asking Price: US$450
Condition: Excellent
Age: N/A
Description:


       Lexicon Jamman - you know the one
       
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Lexicon/JamMan-spec.html
       Maxed out Ram (It uses ZIP ram - hard to find these days, if at 
all)
       Bob Sellon's upgrade OS Eprom (I will include the regular Eprom as 
well)

       $450 plus shipping and cod.

Seller: Jonathan El-Bizri, 650 494 7376
E-mail: sserendipity@netscape.net (Profile)
Location: PALO ALTO, CA
Post Date: 1/29/99

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 12:56:41 1999
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We are NY experimental kaut rock band called "Electro Putas".
We just puted out CD .
I wanna  sent that CD .
 So,, could you give me your exact adress?
thank you

       akio

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In a message dated 1/30/99 11:58:07 AM, akiom@onepine.com writes:

>We are NY experimental kaut rock band called "Electro Putas".


Hmmm...two questions:

What is "kaut rock?"

Is "Puta" what I think it is (se habla espanol)?



Marshall

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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:14:42 -0800
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> In a message dated 1/30/99 11:58:07 AM, akiom@onepine.com writes:
> >We are NY experimental kaut rock band called "Electro Putas".

Marzzz asked:
> Is "Puta" what I think it is (se habla espanol)?

On the other hand, it could be the NY pronunciation (or lack thereof) of a
relatively recent moniker for PCs that's come from the legions of ex-Mac
users in the workplace, as far as I can figure; they call it a Pooter.  So
"Electro Putas" could have a link to some reference to this Big
Pout-and-Sulk Routine, perhaps?  Or, eh, "Poot", hm?

Stephen Goodman  -  It's... The Loop Of The Week!
EarthLight Studios  -  http://www.earthlight.net/Studios

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 15:10:34 1999
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From: "Javier Miranda V." <gnominus@earthling.net>
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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:04:44 -0800
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You know what Putas means in Spanish, right?

Javier Miranda
Berkeley, Calif.

-----Original Message-----
From: akio [mailto:akiom@onepine.com]
Sent: Saturday 30 January 1999 8:53 AM
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Hi!


We are NY experimental kaut rock band called "Electro Putas".
We just puted out CD .
I wanna  sent that CD .
 So,, could you give me your exact adress?
thank you

       akio


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 17:10:10 1999
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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:02:38 -0500
From: GHOST <truthcircle@earthlink.net>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------519E44E48327C3ECA593F0E3
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loop this MF's! I am in control of the loop!
BLEED! GHOST! BLEED!

--------------519E44E48327C3ECA593F0E3
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<CENTER><textCOLOR="ddff00"><FONT SIZE=+1>GHOST 4/10/98</FONT></CENTER>

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--------------519E44E48327C3ECA593F0E3--

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 17:13:02 1999
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Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:28:28 -0800
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
From: Stuart Fox <foxes@jps.net>
Subject: MOTU Software Looper at NAMM
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>From Friday's MacInTouch:

"MOTU gave attendees a sneak peek at a new feature called POLAR, which will
be built into Digital Performer 2.6 when it ships in a few months. POLAR -
Performance-Oriented Loop Audio Recording - is a RAM-based, multitrack
sampler for the Mac, allowing you to lay down grooves, rhythm tracks and
solos - and even overdubs - in real time. They didn't talk specifics, but
the demo was awesome."



Stuart Fox
CalArts Guitar
sgfox@music.calarts.edu


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 17:21:20 1999
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Ghost wrote:
>bleed
> blah,blah,blah
>html content... blah,blah,blah
>...
><META NAME="keywords" CONTENT="... stupid, ...">
>...


How appropriate...

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 18:12:46 1999
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Message-ID: <36B39159.C638FBF3@ibm.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:10:18 -0200
From: Alexandre Tavares Frias <atfrias@ibm.net>
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Tiktok Mobile HQ wrote:

> Someone's got to want this (from Harmony Central):
>
> Lexicon Jamman, maxed RAM w/. Custom OS
>
> Asking Price: US$450
> Condition: Excellent
> Age: N/A
> Description:
>
>        Lexicon Jamman - you know the one
>
> http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Lexicon/JamMan-spec.html
>        Maxed out Ram (It uses ZIP ram - hard to find these days, if at
>
> all)
>        Bob Sellon's upgrade OS Eprom (I will include the regular Eprom
> as
> well)
>
>        $450 plus shipping and cod.
>
> Seller: Jonathan El-Bizri, 650 494 7376
> E-mail: sserendipity@netscape.net (Profile)
> Location: PALO ALTO, CA
> Post Date: 1/29/99

   Please anyone could inform what that replacement Eprom (Mr Bob
Sellon's
one) had improved in JamMan specs and how to order it?

Thanks in advance.

Alex Frias.

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 22:42:41 1999
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Subject: RE: TRUTHCIRCLE WILL DESTRORY U ALL
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:28:41 -0800
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What the hell was that!

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sat Jan 30 23:33:49 1999
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Message-ID: <36B3DB1D.B3C70CD7@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:25:01 -0600
From: Bobdog <psbuddha@texas.net>
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Stuart Fox wrote:

> "MOTU gave attendees a sneak peek at a new feature called POLAR -
> Performance-Oriented Loop Audio Recording -  a RAM-based, multitrack
> sampler for the Mac, allowing you to lay down grooves, rhythm tracks and
> solos - and even overdubs - in real time. They didn't talk specifics, but
> the demo was awesome."

bobdog says "yee-ha" about this; perhaps it will have a better book than motu
audiodesk comes with...

woof


From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 10:08:56 1999
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From: "MARK FRANO" <mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Ghosts Don't Bleed
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:59:50 -0500
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The truth(circle) is--- I don't believe in Ghosts. If anyone 'controls =
the loop' it's David Torn. Hi-Fi Bug

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The truth(circle) is--- I don't =
believe in=20
Ghosts. If anyone 'controls the loop' it's David Torn. Hi-Fi=20
Bug</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 10:20:34 1999
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Message-ID: <001f01be4d2b$71af5100$b88867cf@brendan>
From: "Brendan Flick" <bflick@voicenet.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: JamMan FS-EPROM upgrade?
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:07:38 -0500
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Hi-   Does anyone know what  features or changes the upgrade EPROM gives you
?- or where to get it ?

-Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: Tiktok Mobile HQ <tiktok@sprintmail.com>
To: Looper's Delight <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:58 AM
Subject: JamMan FS


>Someone's got to want this (from Harmony Central):
>
>
>
>
>Lexicon Jamman, maxed RAM w/. Custom OS
>
>Asking Price: US$450
>Condition: Excellent
>Age: N/A
>Description:
>
>
>       Lexicon Jamman - you know the one
>
>http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Lexicon/JamMan-spec.html
>       Maxed out Ram (It uses ZIP ram - hard to find these days, if at
>all)
>       Bob Sellon's upgrade OS Eprom (I will include the regular Eprom as
>well)
>
>       $450 plus shipping and cod.
>
>Seller: Jonathan El-Bizri, 650 494 7376
>E-mail: sserendipity@netscape.net (Profile)
>Location: PALO ALTO, CA
>Post Date: 1/29/99
>
>

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 11:06:01 1999
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From: PJBMHB@aol.com
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Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:02:03 EST
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actually you can stiil find zip ram around if you look.  PJ

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 12:51:17 1999
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From: "MARK FRANO" <mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Echoplex and Audio Sample cd's
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:36:49 -0500
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I am curious about building rythmic loops using an echoplex and =
percussion based audio sample cd's. Is there anyone out there doing =
this? That is building the loop directly from a cd player into the =
echoplex or is a traditional sampler needed inbetween? What are the =
limitations of this approach? Synch problems with layering? Hi-Fi Bugs

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I am curious about building rythmic =
loops using=20
an echoplex and percussion based audio sample cd's. Is there anyone out =
there=20
doing this? That is building the loop directly from a cd player into the =

echoplex or is a traditional sampler needed inbetween? What are the =
limitations=20
of this approach? Synch problems with layering? Hi-Fi=20
Bugs</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 15:23:01 1999
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From: SFERN@webtv.net (SONIA FERNANDES)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:20:08 -0500 (EST)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: yes i was wondering if you have any free samples
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sonia:-) 
have a happy day!!!

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 15:40:19 1999
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From: "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@earthlight.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Ghosts Don't Bleed
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:28:50 -0800
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I'm reminded of a quote from Arnold in "Predator":

"If it bleeds, we can kill it."


    -----Original Message-----
    From: MARK FRANO [mailto:mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com]
    Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:00 AM
    To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
    Subject: Ghosts Don't Bleed


    The truth(circle) is--- I don't believe in Ghosts. If anyone 'controls
the loop' it's David Torn. Hi-Fi Bug

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D230542720-31011999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"=20
size=3D3>I'm reminded of a quote from Arnold in=20
&quot;Predator&quot;:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D230542720-31011999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D230542720-31011999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"=20
size=3D3>&quot;If it bleeds, we can kill it.&quot;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D230542720-31011999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"=20
size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000080 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MARK FRANO=20
    [mailto:mfrano@plainfield.bypass.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, =
January 31,=20
    1999 7:00 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
    Ghosts Don't Bleed<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The truth(circle) is--- I don't =
believe in=20
    Ghosts. If anyone 'controls the loop' it's David Torn. Hi-Fi=20
Bug</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 21:39:49 1999
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Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:23:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Rev. Doubt-Goat" <dgoat@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: CGDAEG
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93

---Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> 	Have any of you guitarists on the list ever
experimented with or are you
> currently using the Guitar Craft New Standard
Guitar Tuning (CGDAEG)?

I use CGDA on my longhorn bass - what I call my
'cellogator' - and have found it interesting and
somewhat frustrating in the lack of close voicings.

> I'm
> in the process of setting my guitar up with this
tuning, which is a bit of
> a task (to me, at least), since the actual high 3rd
is EXCEPTIONALLY high
> and tends to snap the string.

Easy. Tune it to DFCBDF and capo at the first fret.
Or use a 24 3/4" scale guitar as opposed to a 25 1/2"
scale.

93
Rev. Doubt-Goat
===
          The Homepages of the Doubt-Goat

               The Darsan Trio
               Sekhet Maat Oasis, O.T.O.
               Lion & Serpent

          http://www.easystreet.com/~twilliam

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com  Sun Jan 31 23:47:28 1999
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From: Jeff & Vonda McLeod <subversive@mindspring.com>
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	Thanks for the response on the tuning. I appreciate it. I've sort of
reached a compromise with it and my old tuning--which is DADGbDbF. I just
used it at a gig last night for the first time with my trio, and it worked
beautifully.
	Again, I appreciate the feedback.
Sincerely,
Jeff McLeod
__________________________________________
This is not here--
And now is almost over... 
http://members.xoom.com/Gezoleen/

