From ???@??? Fri Aug 01 09:53:59 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 1 07:13:11 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wuIS6-0002Ug-00; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:13:10 -0700 X-From_:nyfac2@nyfac.com Fri Aug 01 07:13:09 1997 Received: from mail2.panix.com [198.7.0.33] by ferret with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wuIS4-0002UQ-00; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:13:09 -0700 Received: from nyfac ([206.133.60.162]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with SMTP id KAA04027 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33E1FAC1.41C6@nyfac.com> Old-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 11:03:29 -0400 From: nyfac Organization: New York Film & Animation Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01SGoldC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.3 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Amplifiers for looping References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored X-Envelope-To: Loopers-Delight Sender: SmartList Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:13:10 -0700 X-UIDL: 90f230e043ba3c257ca3c6d08de99942 > Phil did: > >Yes, I have tried this and in my opinion it does sound different than > >stereo. I've taken it one step further by adding a third cabinet which is > > > > Ah... this ends up giving you the difference between the two channels. > Since I assume that the reverb processor does not send any signal equally > to both cannels, but different delays, it might be the same as the sum in > terms of volume, but with a different characteristic due to the changed > phase. > > >Some very interesting stuff comes out of this third cabinet on occasion. When you say "wired across the two positive speaker terminals on my stereo power amp" do you mean something like: [left channel power amp+] to [3rd speaker +] and [right channel power amp+] to [3rd speaker -]? or do you mean: [left channel power amp+] and [right channel power amp+] and [left channel power amp-] and [right channel power amp+] to [3rd speaker -] ? The second seems more likely to work, but since the wave forms would be added together (?) I would guess that you wouldn't get the difference... unless the first scheme knocks the signals out of phase... Is this part of the whole surround sound thing? Trevor From ???@??? Sat Aug 02 12:52:15 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 2 00:29:16 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wuYck-0004Hq-00; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:29:14 -0700 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 03:25:07 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com Message-ID: <970802032506_718109488@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: ngold@imagina.com, MPeters@compuserve.com, Dpcoffin@aol.com, jeffs@bgnet.bgsu.edu, jaytaylor@scsn.net, patrick@his.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Vortex database (at last) Resent-Message-ID: <"9MJR9.A.74D.PEu4z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/79 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:29:14 -0700 X-UIDL: 01adf957d4325e57ce5a9a4035ccaf32 Vortex patch exchange, now up and running (I hope), also info on controling the vortex echoes. Hope to add much more:- Using the expression pedal; Descriptions of all the different processors; Graphic showing all the effect diagrams on one page; And of course the 'art of morphing'; (Just as soon(?) as I get the time. Any suggestions/criticisms/contributions welcome. It's at:- http://members.aol.com/soundfnr/vortex.htm See you there Andy Butler (UK) From ???@??? Sat Aug 02 23:25:50 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 2 16:55:59 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wuo1e-0007Ww-00; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:55:58 -0700 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Negative Eye" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:42:10 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: No mail for me? Reply-to: juma@cyberia.net.ar Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"0GkxMD.A.H5G.eh84z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/80 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:55:58 -0700 X-UIDL: 0570e0b7e25848bcfb8a04fecb971682 Hello loopminded, Are you receiveing any mail??? I didn't got a single message since a weel or so. ??? Juan Manuel Aguirre aka ->thE negativE eyE -->negativE visioN --->negativE imagE From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 06:04:50 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 01:15:02 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wuvob-0005p2-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:15:01 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:05:32 -0400 From: Michael Peters Subject: RE: Vortex database (at last) To: "'Looper's Delight'" Message-ID: <199708030405_MC2-1C43-3438@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"HQns9D.A.APF.L1D5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/81 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:15:01 -0700 X-UIDL: 9ff25b4c665917b8c8169dfe59879feb Andy Butler (UK) says, >Vortex patch exchange, now up and running (I hope), Congrats and thanks bunches for setting this up! I'm looking forward to all the new sounds ... ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 14:18:30 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 06:14:11 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wv0U6-0003e8-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:14:10 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:53:27 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Ambient? Resent-Message-ID: <"fZhzNC.A._JD.dMI5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/82 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:14:10 -0700 X-UIDL: 3d7c5d257f9d8d9a5bfd7c87d93f4f64 At 10:11 PM -0700 7/27/97, The Man Himself wrote: >Two cents on the ongoing "tyranny of ambient" thread... > >People have wondered why so many assumptions tend to be made about >"loop-based" music being equated with "ambient" music, and why there seem >to be so many Big Three-wielding guitar players on this list. I know >that Kim has expressed a desire to lure some people from the >DJ/Electronica side of things into the list discussions, which as far as >I know have unfortunately gone largely unrealized (unless there are some >techno heads lurking out there). As Ian noted, there are a few electronica sorts floating about. There are also a number of folks from other non-ambient genres, like bluegrass, world beat, rock, jazz, etc. But I do hunger for greater diversity on the list, that is true. I think that Looping is practiced by a much more diverse group than we have here so far, and I'd like to see the list open up a bit. I don't think this problem is due to some inherent aspect of realtime (or non-realtime) looping that makes it more ambient or guitar friendly. It's really more like bad advertising. I haven't exactly been bouncing all over cyberspace trumpeting Looper's Delight to every odd musical genre I stumble across! The list started by me sending mail out to announce its existence to a bunch of people I knew, who undoubtedly reflected my tastes to some extent, and from there it mostly spread by word of mouth. So we end up with a large majority of gear-head guitarists with weird musical tastes. :-) The folks who stumble on Looper's Delight through web searches or whatever oftentimes come from different backgrounds, and bring some interesting and refreshing viewpoints. More and more people seem to be appearing here from those directions. I think that's great; it helps us all see things in new ways, and hopefully broadens our own music. I'd like to see the list continue to grow in that way. Please help out if you can, I think it will do us all good. If you know any interesting loopers out there, or interesting people interested in looping, tell them about the list! I also think that Looping is something that can be useful and enjoyable to musicians from all backgrounds. The more experimental folks have gotten into it early, but there is no need to keep it a secret from everyone else! I think the Looper's Delight list holds some great potential for improving this. By discussing Looping every day, we are helping to define and develop it into something more clear and accessible. This makes it easier and easier for others to understand Looping and desire to join us or just enjoy the music we create. It also makes it easier for us to show others what we have discovered and get them to start looping too. >There are a few things to consider here. For one thing, we generally >refer to what we're doing as "loop-based musi,c" given that most of us use >some sort of real-time looping based around a delay unit or a Big Three >item. However, most DJs or techno artists aren't going to think of what >they do as "loop-based" -- they're going to use one of the dozens of >sub-genre monikers already floating around the atmosphere of that scene. I think the word "loop" is pretty darn common in that scene so it's really not that big of a stretch. Using real-time loopers is just starting to catch on amongst the DJ set, as evidenced by the now commonplace simple loopers and phrase samplers found on DJ mixers. Again it's a case of bad marketing. The companies who sold many of the more sophisticated looping devices did not understand this market or how to sell to it. They understood the traditional guitar market, so that's where it went. How do you explain the Invisibl Skratch Picklz to executives of Gibson Guitar? I'm still trying to figure that out, and I'm sure Jon Durant had similar experiences at Lexicon. A lot of people involved in electronica, hip-hop, dj-ing, etc have never even heard of looping devices like the echoplex, jamman, or boomerang. It's such a great match, too, so it's kind of amazing. Instead, companies like pioneer, gemini, and akai have begun developing simple loopers for the dj market on their own. They seem to be doing quite well with it. Maybe some of the people using those will get turned on by it and find some of the more sophisticated devices out there on their own. Or maybe the guitar companies will notice that rock is dead or on sabbatical or whatever, and try to get a little of the electronica action. Or maybe things will cross over in some other way. We'll see I suppose. But I think it's wrong to draw some sort of line between one set of loop tools and the other. "Big Three" doesn't make sense, because there are more than three loopers out there! The feature sets vary, but the basic looping idea shows up in many places. From simple delay pedals, to dj-loopers, to echoplexes and jammans and boomerangs, to older guys like the ElectroHarmoix 16 second and digitech timemachine delays, to the vortex, to the akai remix16, to pro cd players with settable loop points, to eventides, to tc 2290's....it's all over the place. One particular set of features shouldn't be more pc than another. And really, sharing the ideas and applications from different devices and genres can only help us all. Even trying to draw lines between realtime and non-realtime looping seems wrong. If you make a recording (or performance) by doing the loops in realtime or by painstakingly cutting and pasting, what is the difference to the listener? Different techniques and processes for creating similar results. Why try to keep them all separate? >Look at it this way -- a metal guitar player isn't going to describe his >music as "amplified guitar-based music," he's going to call it metal. A >blues musician will call his music blues, rather than "folk-derived >African-American guitar music." Likewise, a techno artist won't call his >music "loop-based," because the loop aspect goes without saying (just as >the guitaristic aspect in the aforementioned examples does). Besides, >which *sounds* better: "timeshifted, sample-based cut-and-paste music" or >"jungle"? So a forum for "loop-based music" might well seem a strange >place for a musician for whom looping is an almost unconscious and >pre-ordained means of making music. And they arrive here to find we're all babbling about guitars and get bored and leave....:-) Good points,though, but I'm not sure I agree with your premise. Defining Looping as a genre unto itself seems odd to me, although many of you are clearly trying to do that. That's fine. But much of what we talk about is looping as a technique, or a process, or an instrument. The process of looping in music is probably just as intesting to a drum n' bass musician as it is to an ambient musician. In that respect it is like discussing composition, or improvisation. The same ideas are applicable in vastly different genres. Discussing looping as an instrument is like discussing say, percussion. Have you ever noticed that percussionists who play totally different kinds of music talk to each other like brothers/sisters? It's like they are all part of the same club. Guitar players for some reason spend a lot of time talking about why their brand of it is better than the other guy's, which is pretty lame. I'd rather see loopers following the percussionist/brotherhood model! >There's also a fundamental difference between the way that most of us are >using the idea of looping, versus how most sample-based "music with >looping" is made. Basically, with most electronic loop-based music, >you're dealing with someone sampling *somebody else's* music, which was >*already made*, and then editing the sample in step-time via a computer. You're not one of those people that gets all bent about sampling are you? :-) What difference is it really if the sample is recorded on a hard disk or recorded on your brain? The loop is a sample of something. If its a sample of you playing, chances are the thing you played is heavily influenced in some way by "somebody else's music"! I mean, I've spent just about all of my musical life intentionally not learning any piece of music, in the hopes that my own music would be more unique. Well, it doesn't quite work. The things I've listened to are definitely there. But that's fine! Using something familiar gives music a starting point. A lot of electronica involves recontextualizing something familiar. So does a lot of other kinds of looping. I think it is a stretch to say there is some fundamental difference between creating a loop based on some funky riff I play or some funky riff I sample off a p-funk album. The musical purpose would be the same in either case. And what happens when I sample something off p-funk and add my playing to it? Am I some kind of mixed-breed, shunned by all? >Most of this list seems more based around the "classical loop" approach, Just because its gone that way so far doesn't mean that's all it has to be! >which traces its roots back to reel-to-reel tape loop systems, which as >far as performance applications are concerned basically involves creating >(or, to use an old-fashioned term, *playing*) the music at the same moment >that it's being looped, and doing any editing or re-compiling in real >time. It's a very different approach, which may explain why a lot of >elecronica artists might not feel like they have a lot in common with us. It seems rather biased to decide that this is the "classical" approach to looping, as opposed to analog arpeggiators or turntable manipulations or tape-and-razors or whatever. They were all developing in roughly the same period. And much of that was just the application of new techniques and devices to ideas that have existed in music for a long time. Different people took different approaches. But why do you feel so compelled to draw divisions between them and "us" whoever we are? It would seem more useful to communicate with whoever "them" is and discover the ways in which we are really doing the same thing. And I haven't noticed that electronica artists don't feel they have much in common with "us". In fact, many of us seem to be them, and many of us are actively exploring one side or the other. Many of the more noteworthy artists of your "classical aproach" seem to be collaborating with electronica artists, with promising results. And I seem to get along fine with the electornica folks I meet. Maybe they just don't like you, Andre....:-) Again, any lacking in the LD genre-demographics probably has a lot more to do with a lower profile in some net communities than in others. When more electronica artists know we exist, more will show up. It also has something to do with the demographics of the internet. Male, 20-50, educated, middle class income....sounds like every other place on the net. The kids in my neighborhood probably aren't even finishing high school, let alone buying computers and surfing the web. But some of them are probably creating music, probably with loops, with whatever gear they can get, maybe even one of the "big three". Just because they are not here, doesn't mean they're not one of us! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 14:18:29 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 06:12:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wv0Sq-0003ZG-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:12:52 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:30:36 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: not so Ambient Resent-Message-ID: <"hbi9sC.A.XKD.fMI5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/83 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:12:52 -0700 X-UIDL: c62db91db1b8368b3fec2634bcb14289 At 7:43 AM -0400 7/28/97, Ian///Shakespace wrote: >hmm, well, lurking no more... hi i'm Ian, 24, and i'm a looper. Hi Ian, welcome to Looper's Anonymous! sorry ;-) >do mostly solo "electronica" (ranging from ambient soundscape stuff to >laswell-inspired dub to "jungle") that also relies on many kinds of loops. >hmm.. my main studio loopers for electronic stuff are a boss DD-3 pedal and >a Digitech 4-second "time machine". and with the use of a constant beat, >i've found it quite easy not only to lock up the delays to the tempo of a >given track, but utilising fx sends and levels and quick cuts, to build >intense rhythmic loops within the delay. I'd like to hear more about what you are doing here and how you do it. I've been experimenting in a rather limited fashion with putting sequence pattern stuff into synced loops and delays and mucking about with crossfading and feedback and such. Things like reversing the loop or looping only piece of the sequence and crossfading back and forth with the original got me some interesting results. Certainly made the lame drum machine patterns a lot more interesting! I'd like to do more of this, what are some techniques you use? kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 14:18:33 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 09:36:44 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wv3e7-0000gg-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:36:43 -0700 X-Sender: illoyd@mail.intrlink.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:32:43 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: illoyd@intrlink.com (Ian///Shakespace) Subject: Re: not so Ambient Resent-Message-ID: <"365yK.A.Pg.mLL5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/84 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:36:43 -0700 X-UIDL: b09cbbda905bd4f3ab9850805f618d1b >Hi Ian, welcome to Looper's Anonymous! >sorry ;-) no no, glad someone caught that... :-) >been experimenting in a rather limited fashion with putting sequence >pattern stuff into synced loops and delays and mucking about with >crossfading and feedback and such. too many possibilites, eh? yeah this is something i need to get more into, but the limited capabilitise of my mixer make it prohibitve at this point. oh, for the want of a 1604... >Things like reversing the loop or Ah, one thing i wish i had in real time (but i love my ESi for it... more on this in a sec.) > Certainly made the lame drum >machine patterns a lot more interesting! the syncopation you can get from delays is really great, unlike anything you would ever think to program in the first place. I'll do this to figure out what i'd like the drum sequence to sound like sometimes... >I'd like to do more of this, what >are some techniques you use? OKay well i feel like the perfesser or something. Um, i'll deal with the glorious 800ms DD3 since its my main tool. of course this is all pretty easily extrapolated to other delays.... I've got the delay on the aux send of my mixer, with the outs (the DD3 has dry and effect outs) returned on channels. Running the drum machine through (feedback minimised) i'll find a suitable delay setting. Usually, everything is running from MIDI clocked from my Mac. Anyway, sequnce playing. pull everything out of the delay line and get a clean path, then crank the feedback. using the aux faders on the individual instruments' channels, add little things to the delay line. Since the delay is complementary to the drums, everything should be kosher. Keep a finger on the feedback control, just in case something gets out of hand. Should I get something really grooving, the DD3 has a "hold" function where it'll infinitely loop whatever is in memory. I guess made for guitarists to solo over a 800ms rhythm guitar chord... whatever, i'll dump the loop into the ESi and keep it running there, clear out the delay line and keep building. I dunno, its just a feel thing, i guess. mainly dropping stuff in from the auxes and keeping what works. lots of time with headphones on.... um, more will come to me certainly, but i'd love to hear about some of your particular techniques... Ian///Shakespace www.intrlink.com/~illoyd From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 14:18:41 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 13:24:57 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wv7Cy-00001e-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:24:56 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:21:22 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com Message-ID: <970803162121_1424077889@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: No mail for me? Resent-Message-ID: <"mvt1mB.A.HKH.AiO5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/85 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:24:56 -0700 X-UIDL: 3f2e6d180b04e2a2c81a7fde26ff14e3 I think everyone went on vacation simultaneously. I've been getting a bit, but not much. Maybe the subjects have not been enticing enough. Who has an enticing subject? Has anyone done any amazing pieces using nothing but cardboard boxes? I mean, I haven't, but it's a thought! I'm into corrugated. Run it thru effects and stand back! Jim Portland OR From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 19:35:44 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 17:47:01 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvBIa-0000r2-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:47:00 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:40:11 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (Part 1) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0GOFvB.A.Xi.2WS5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/86 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:47:00 -0700 X-UIDL: d53251afd52fd165e122ec2965192a88 Kim -- Your reply to my "ambient" post was so thought provoking that I can't help but send out some very extensive replies. I'm breaking this down into multiple posts to avoid excessive duress. And let me make it clear that *none* of this is intended as a flame to you or anyone else; I humbly think these are some of the most improtant questions to have cropped up on the list in a long time. Those intimidated by long posts had best delete now. Otherwise, brace yourselves...! -------------- On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Kim Flint wrote: > But I think it's wrong to draw some sort of line between one set of loop > tools and the other. "Big Three" doesn't make sense, because there are more > than three loopers out there! The feature sets vary, but the basic looping > idea shows up in many places. From simple delay pedals, to dj-loopers, to > echoplexes and jammans and boomerangs, to older guys like the > ElectroHarmoix 16 second and digitech timemachine delays, to the vortex, to > the akai remix16, to pro cd players with settable loop points, to > eventides, to tc 2290's....it's all over the place. I don't remember where the "Big Three" phrase came from (it might even have been coined by yours truly), but I use it as a way of referring to the Echoplex, JamMan, and Boomerang. And I absolutely feel that these units are in a seperate class than the other units you mentioned above (not to say that all of the other units are in the same category, of course). I don't mean to imply some sort of elitist stance with the use of the phrase, and I'm certainly not saying that using one of the Big Three makes a person any more of an artist than using a different sort of unit. But they *are* distinguished by an unprecedented level of what can be done to a looped signal. Take one of the Boss digital delay/loop pedals and put it up against a Boomerang -- they're on completely different levels of sophistication entirely. Same thing if you compare, say, an EH 16-second with an Oberheim Echoplex. And again, let me reiterate, I'm *not* saying that using a Big Three is more musically valid than using a less cutting-edge piece of technology. But to shy away from putting the Big Three in a class by themselves is ignoring the basic aspects of their nature. For crying out loud, Kim, you helped invent one of them -- I can't believe I'm trying to argue *in favor* of this! 8-/ > One particular set of > features shouldn't be more pc than another. And really, sharing the ideas > and applications from different devices and genres can only help us all. See above -- I really don't think this is an issue of political correctness. What is done with a tool is far more important than what the basic tool is. Let me put it in non-looping terms: If you put a Sears guitar up aainst a Klein, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that there aren't some serious differenes between the two, and that they're in different classes. But give me a choice between listening to C.C. DeVille play a Klein or David Torn play a Sears, and I'll take the latter eleven times out of ten. (No offense to any Poison fans out there, of course.) As I mentioned earlier, I'm sort of looking forward to doing my August residency at Lumpy Gravy without my Oberheim, since it'll force me to dig deeper into my Vortex and guitar synth rigs to really see what I can get out of them (of course, I'm still gonna be highly relieved when the Plex comes home from Oakland!). These tools may not be Big Three members, but if used in a musical manner, with a deep understanding of their capabilities, there's no reason why they can't make music every bit as expressive as any other. I want to reiterate this point, since I really don't feel that my position on this is indicative of a politically incorrect stance. Stay tunes for Part 2, --Andre From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 10:03:00 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 19:44:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvD8G-0005jH-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:44:28 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970630133152.00602100@mail.well.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:50:28 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: more plex undo questions Resent-Message-ID: <"qyh5N.A.o9E.GEU5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/91 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:44:28 -0700 X-UIDL: b1d1cc4fba2e493ef8bbbddb5bdebc5d an ancient plea for help, discovered on the bottom of all my email: At 1:31 PM -0700 6/30/97, dan mcmullen wrote: >hello again, > >no replies to my last, somewhat vague query about plex undo behavior, so >here are a few more specific questions: > >- why does the undo led go on at the second repeat of a loop that has just >been recorded for the first time? This happens when you are still playing at the time you end the loop. The echoplex is smart about that, and actually does a small overdub just past the loop boundary as the input is being turned off. The input is not turned off abruptly, but very quickly ramped down on the analog side. The result is that you don't get an ugly pop at the loop boundary. Since a small overdub was done, the undo function is capable of removing it. That's why the LED comes on. If you make a loop where you stop the input before ending the loop, you will see that the LED does not come on. >- it seems that loops just less than 1/3 of the available time can still >fail to undo an overdub that crosses the start point. what is the actual >percent of total loop time that can always support the two full undos >necessary to eliminate overdubs that cross over the start point? This is why expanding the memory in the echoplex is a good idea! You don't have to worry about things like this anymore. Take a look at the diagrams about memory use in the Undo section of the manual. That should help you some. Each time you do an overdub over a pass of the loop, you use a new section of memory. If an overdub is done over a loop boundary, you will use two new sections of memory equal to the loop time. So you have to be careful about that when you don't have a lot of memory available. In the cases where you are using almost all the memory, the echoplex often needs to set aside memory sections to handle situations where you need to recover from something like an accidental record. I think that may be why you couldn't undo twice when the loop was 1/3 of the total memory. Matthias will have to explain that one better, since he knows it better than anyone. >- the following sequence seems to confuse undo: > > - record a loop > - 'accidentally' record over it, but end with undo to cancel the record > and return to the first loop > - overdub > >a long-press undo does not work at this point to remove the overdub. >short-press undos can remove some of it, depending on where it is. anyone >know what's going on here? You may be hitting a bug in the old software, but I'm not sure. I don't remember one like that, though. The new software doesn't do this, assuming you have enough memory available. You might also be running out of memory, and have a loop that is too long for an overdub to be undone. This seems more likely. As you're noticeing, Undo is a feature that becomes much more satisfying when you have plenty of memory available! hope this helps, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 19:35:46 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 17:56:59 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvBSE-0001Kw-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:56:58 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:51:40 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (Part 2) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1JNzc.A.CJB.ihS5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/87 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:56:58 -0700 X-UIDL: c089c0f55dd9e9f90efcf92359ea2eb3 The saga continues...! On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Kim Flint wrote: > Even trying to draw lines between realtime and non-realtime looping seems > wrong. If you make a recording (or performance) by doing the loops in > realtime or by painstakingly cutting and pasting, what is the difference to > the listener? Different techniques and processes for creating similar > results. Why try to keep them all separate? Well, this paragraph has enough food for discussion to merit an entire mailing list of its own. I'll scratch the surface... First of all, I vehemently disagree with the assumption that realtime and non-realtime processes necessarily produce similar-sounding results. A live loop-based performance, undertaken with a strong grasp of the fundamental techniques available, has a sound and a potential performance arc that will only be realizable in step-time through a tremendous amount of editing, if at all. Likewise, if you do a step-time composition that requires extensive amounts of cutting and pasting (non to mention treatments, such as timestretching, which are presently more or less impossible as real-time processes), then you're making music in a way that inherently cannot be done live and on-the-fly. There are simply certain musical nuances in each area that are impossible in the other. As for the remark that it won't make much difference to the listener, that in itself is a whole can of worms. First of all, while I certainly don't think that the receptiveness of the audience should be written off, I also feel quite strongly that a large part of the craft of any art has to be pursued for the love of and devotion to the craft itself -- and whether or not somebody in the audience happens to pick up on it or not is sort of irrelevant. It's possible to read your question as, "Since most people won't be able to tell a big difference, then what difference does it make?" One might as well say, "Most people won't be able to follow the changes to 'Giant Steps,' so why bother playing them in a solo?" Or, "95% of the listening audience for this record is never gonna notice a detail like how much reverb is being applied to the backing vocal track, so why worry about it?" Or, "Only someone who's a painter is going to notice this kind of brush-stroke, so why bother trying to employ it?" Or, "Only a filmmaker will be able to appreciate this tricky camera work, so why bother shooting it?" In each question, the answer is basically the same: These are the details of our art. This is *what we do*. I don't know who first spoke that famous line, "God is in the details," but when it comes to this sort of thing I'm inclined to agree. One last note on real-time versus step-time. My own use of looping generally revolves around improvisation; I've found it to be one of the most consistently inspiring tools for improvisation I've ever used. As far as I'm concerned, true improvisation is strictly a real-time phenomenon. If you're compiling something in step-time, then you're composing. Nothing wrong with that at all. But improv, at least as I see it, is largely about composing spontaneously, right then and there. Even if you're taking snatches of improvised material and then recontextualizing them, you're still not really improvising anymore. I also hold the live aspect as one of the aforementioned details of how I approach this element of my art. This gets into issues of philosophy, probably, but for me a part of the creative statement I'm making with this method is that it *is* done live, and it *is* done on the fly. Whatever sounds that are being heard didn't exist until they were played right then and there. A lot of people might not notice (I've had some people come up to me in the midst of a MIDI-less solo performance and congratulate me on programming a great synth patch; I take it as a great compliment). A lot of people might not care. It doesn't really matter to me that much; it's about the way I approach the art. One of the reasons I still hold Robert Fripp in high regard as a loopist is that he's just about the only person I can think of who's consistently gone out in public and done live, improvisational, real-time looping. Yes, I realize he didn't invent this approach. But he's done it consistently, and he's done it in a number of very musical ways. > But much of what we talk about is > looping as a technique, or a process, or an instrument. The process of > looping in music is probably just as intesting to a drum n' bass musician > as it is to an ambient musician. In that respect it is like discussing > composition, or improvisation. The same ideas are applicable in vastly > different genres. I agree (see, we had to meet up at some point!), although I think the end results of this shared technique can be vastly different. Ambient and jungle, for example, seem to me to be about as different as you can get. Ambient's general modus operandi generally seems to be about being soothing, atmospheric music, which can just as easily be ignored as it can be focused on. On the other hand, the most characteristic thing about jungle I've noticed is that it makes people twitch like crazy. (Ever watched people hear drum n' bass for the first time? It's a trip). So I honestly don't know how much a typical Ambient artist would have in common with a typical Jungle artist. Think about this, though: A straight-ahead, solid-body-wielding bebop guitarist has an awful lot in common with a shred-machine-armed rock musician. They're both playing the same basic instrument. But we all know how many examples there are in each camp of people who wouldn't want anything to do with the other! > Discussing looping as an instrument is like discussing say, percussion. > Have you ever noticed that percussionists who play totally different kinds > of music talk to each other like brothers/sisters? It's like they are all > part of the same club. Guitar players for some reason spend a lot of time > talking about why their brand of it is better than the other guy's, which > is pretty lame. I'd rather see loopers following the > percussionist/brotherhood model! I agree again. See above... ...and stay tuned for part three! --Andre From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 19:35:55 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 18:27:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvBvV-0002Vg-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:27:13 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (Part 3) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fyGvH.A.4KC.O9S5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/88 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:27:13 -0700 X-UIDL: c74bc13e0f836fd874c37843a2f5e13f On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Kim Flint wrote: > You're not one of those people that gets all bent about sampling are you? > :-) YEP! > What difference is it really if the sample is recorded on a hard disk > or recorded on your brain? The difference is that if it's sampled, you've got a recording of somebody else's music. If it's "sampled in your brain," then it's being filtered through your own sensibilities. If you have five different people sample the same Zeppelin riff on the same sampler, you're gonna get five identical samples. If you give five different people the same guitar, and have them play the same Zeppelin riff, you're going to get five subtly (or not so subtly) different versions of that riff, because the riff is being filtered through the basic fundamental aspects of what makes each one of us a seperate and distinct human being. I'm well-aquainted with the argument that since everybody is influenced by something, then sampling is no less original of an approach than any other. My above paragraph is my first line of response to that. Of course, you can take that sample and tweak it to make it sound different, but you can do the same thing with that riff an a guitar as well. If you're sampling, you've got to deliberately go in and change it. If you're actually playing, however, the "editing process" takes place automatically -- and it takes place in a manner that no other human on the face of the earth can precisely duplicate. > The loop is a sample of something. If its a > sample of you playing, chances are the thing you played is heavily > influenced in some way by "somebody else's music"! > The things I've listened to are definitely there. But that's fine! > Using something familiar gives music a starting point. See above. > A lot of electronica involves recontextualizing something familiar. So does > a lot of other kinds of looping. I think it is a stretch to say there is > some fundamental difference between creating a loop based on some funky > riff I play or some funky riff I sample off a p-funk album. > The musical > purpose would be the same in either case. I can't disagree more! The Zeppelin example is exhibit A. Here are several more: Look at the John Lennon song "Come Together." There's a line in there that goes, "Here come old flat-top, he come groovin' up slowly." This is a quote from a Chuck Berry tune. Now then, there's a world of difference between Lennon singing that line himself, in his own voice, in the context of his own song, as opposed to him suddenly dropping in a sample of the Berry original. What we're talking about is the difference between quoting somebody else's idea, as opposed to out-and-out taking that idea and inserting it into a different context. Here's a different take on the issue. In a _Musician_ magazine interview from about a year ago, the techno group Orbital mentioned that a lot of the sounds which appeared to be fairly standard analog synthesizer bleeps and drum machine presets were, in fact, very elaborately altered sounds that the group had meticulously constructed themselves. They'd sample a trash can being hit, and then run it through all manner of processing in order to produce a sound that, by the group's own admission, didn't sound significatly different from most preset sounds. But for them, their art is largely about taking those kinds of sounds and then reconstructing them, sometimes to the point of making highly unlikely sounds come across as ordinary! Of course, it would be much faster to just use those synth presets, and they might be the only people on earth who could tell the difference, but that's how they make their art. Look at a band like Rage Against the Machine. To me, a big part of what that group is about (from a musical standpoint) is the fact that they're a rock band that takes aspects of hip-hop's instrumental language, but applies it to a rock instrumentation. They play loops all over the place, but they actually *play* them, rather than simply sampling them and then looping them. It's a different sound, and a different artistic statement. A lot of guitarists I know (including myself) think that Tom Morello's solo on "Bulls On Parade," wherein he imitates the sound of a DJ scratching a disc by sliding his hand up and down the fretboard while toggling his pickup selector, was one of the hippest things to come out last year. Sure sounds like a DJ scratching a record. So why not just bring in a DJ to scratch? If you have to ask... I'll give one more example: I'm presently in the process of putting together some tracks on a hard disk recorder. Now here's an interesting thing about hard disk technology: If I have a two-bar phrase, it takes up no more space in the hard disk's memory to have that phrase repeat for ten minutes than it does to have it repeat for two seconds! This has to do with "non-destructive editing," and the fact that if I cut-and-paste a phrase a few hundred times, I'm really sending info to the hard disk to tell it to read the original data from a certain place. Now then, since a lot of my parts repeat, it's much more economical (both in terms of hard disk space, and in terms of actual money when it comes time to buy more memory) to cut and paste those sections. But there's a part of me that would actually prefer to play the parts over and over again, because my ear likes hearing those sorts of subtle variances! I might be the only person in the world who notices this difference, and the only significant difference may well be in terms of how it's done, but it's still a big difference. I'm likely going to copy them anyway, for a variety of reasons, but it's only recently that I've started to really get into music that loops in this sort of manner. I used to write off the last Tricky album as a bunch of two-bar loops over which a stoned-beyond-belief guy mumbled three stanzas of lyrics over and over. I still think of it like that, but I'm actually starting to dig it now. ;} > And what happens when I sample > something off p-funk and add my playing to it? Am I some kind of > mixed-breed, shunned by all? No, you're just five years behind the trend of all those rap producers who sampled "Atomic Dog" in 10,000 different hip-hop songs. ;} More to come! --Andre From ???@??? Sun Aug 03 19:35:57 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 18:59:57 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvCRA-0003dK-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:59:56 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:54:11 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (Part 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"h_uZBD.A.5QD.PcT5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/89 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:59:56 -0700 X-UIDL: 9b5c432351932ea34e9f207f2ebccd90 On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Kim Flint wrote: > It seems rather biased to decide that this is the "classical" approach to > looping, as opposed to analog arpeggiators or turntable manipulations or > tape-and-razors or whatever. They were all developing in roughly the same > period. I coined that phrase in order to illustrate what I percieve to be the ancestral development of the current crop of real-time loopers. I absolutely think that Riley/Eno/Fripp-derived tape-loop methodology provides a more direct and significant historical link to the "Big Three" than does an arpeggiator on a synth, or even splicing a reel of analog tape with tape and a razor blade. I would go on to say that tape-and-razors looping is the "classical" precursor to MIDI-based sequencer editing. Just look at where the term "cut and paste" comes from! I've already gone on at length as to how and why I draw distinctions between real-time and step-time looping; my reference to live tape-loops as the "classical" precedent for real-time electronic loopers is likely an extension of this as well. > But why do you feel so compelled to draw > divisions between them and "us" whoever we are? I honestly don't think I'm drawing a division. I started off speculating as to why this list was so dominated by guitar-wielding Fripp-spawned real-time loopists. When I refer to "we," I'm referring to the majority of the people on this list, and more specifically to the majority of those people who contribute to the list on a regular basis. Look through the back-issue archives, or check the profiles page. Do you *really* think that I'm making an unrealistic assesment of the membership of the list? At this point, of course, we've abandoned speculation about Looper's Delight demographics and delved headlong into far deeper and more ambiguous philosophical issues. I for one do not regret this... :) And as you'll see below, I don't personally feel that I'm purveying a particuarly provincial attitude... > It would seem more useful > to communicate with whoever "them" is and discover the ways in which we are > really doing the same thing. I agree with the first part of the sentence, though I am unconvinced that we are indeed all doing the same thing. > And I haven't noticed that electronica artists don't feel they have much in > common with "us". In fact, many of us seem to be them, and many of us are > actively exploring one side or the other. I've got half a year's worth of jungle and techno beats stored in my computer, waiting for my feeble hands to get in shape to the point where I can record some decent guitar parts. (That's the problem with jungle -- it's so damned FAST. No wonder Buckethead did a drum n' bass album.) I've actually been using sequencers and drum machines for nine years -- that's longer than I've been playing guitar! But even if I make a whole album of jungle-driven tunes (which I seem to be well on my way to doing), I'll have a hard time thinking of myself as a "drum 'n bass musician." I've been checking out a lot of the publications made by and for the whole electronic dance music scene, reading what they have to say about themselves and how they make their music. I've come to the conclusion that if you want to talk about people who are truly involved in what's being referred to a "electronica," then you're dealing with more than just what sorts of beats and samples they're using. It has to do with a whole lifestyle -- philosophy, clothing, social behavior, language, spelling, et al. And it's produced some fabulous music. But I know that I'll never be a part of that culture. So I guess I do have a tendency to view that music as "something other," in the sense that the most devoted and highly-regarded members of that culture seem to approach life in general and music in particular in a way that is very different from my own. I'm speaking strictly for myself here, and won't assume that the rest of the list feels this way. Based upon the aforementioned demographics, however, I would *hypothesize* that a lot of the rest of the bulk of this list is in a somewhat similar position in terms of not having an immediate link to that culture. Whether or not they feel that this is a barrier towards their being able to operate in those musical areas in a manner which truly connects to the essence of the music is a whole other issue (and probably a whole other thread). > Many of the more noteworthy > artists of your "classical aproach" seem to be collaborating with > electronica artists, with promising results. I agree. In saying this, however, you yourself are acknowledging that there is in fact a distinction to be made in terms of the methodology involved... Frankly, I'm hoping that the "Electronic jam session" idea at Lumpy Gravy takes off for just this very reason; I'd like to MIDI my Echoplex up to some DJ's sequencer and see what happens. Better yet, slave the sequencer to the Echoplex! > And I seem to get along fine > with the electornica folks I meet. Maybe they just don't like you, > Andre....:-) They can join the ever-growing club. 8-{ But just wait -- they're gonna *hate* me once they hear how I've bastardized their music... > Again, any lacking in the LD genre-demographics probably has a lot more to > do with a lower profile in some net communities than in others. When more > electronica artists know we exist, more will show up. I hope so. In the meantime, I hope the last four posts or so have been of some food for thought. And as always, no flames intended! Best, --Andre From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 10:02:59 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 19:44:28 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvD8E-0005j3-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:44:26 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:01:27 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: not so Ambient Resent-Message-ID: <"pq9kw.A.m-E.NEU5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/92 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:44:26 -0700 X-UIDL: 0610cc96dc89893fdd247723c1d72e1f At 12:32 PM -0400 8/3/97, Ian///Shakespace wrote: >>been experimenting in a rather limited fashion with putting sequence >>pattern stuff into synced loops and delays and mucking about with >>crossfading and feedback and such. >too many possibilites, eh? yeah this is something i need to get more into, >but the limited capabilitise of my mixer make it prohibitve at this point. >oh, for the want of a 1604... I'm just using the feedback and mix knobs on the delay. (an obie echoplex, natch) Gets me pretty far, actually. Better mixing would certainly open the possibilities a lot. >I've got the delay on the aux send of my mixer, with the outs (the DD3 has >dry and effect outs) returned on channels. Running the drum machine through >(feedback minimised) i'll find a suitable delay setting. Usually, >everything is running from MIDI clocked from my Mac. Anyway, sequnce >playing. pull everything out of the delay line and get a clean path, then >crank the feedback. using the aux faders on the individual instruments' >channels, add little things to the delay line. Since the delay is >complementary to the drums, everything should be kosher. Keep a finger on >the feedback control, just in case something gets out of hand. Should I get >something really grooving, the DD3 has a "hold" function where it'll >infinitely loop whatever is in memory. I guess made for guitarists to solo >over a 800ms rhythm guitar chord... whatever, i'll dump the loop into the >ESi and keep it running there, clear out the delay line and keep building. ah, that's interesting, I hadn't quite tried that yet. I'll add "controlling input volume to delay" and now I've got three knobs to turn! >um, more will come to me certainly, but i'd love to hear about some of your >particular techniques... Ok, here's some things I've done that seemed to work: I usually use my old Alesis HR-16B drum machine, connected through the delay. (with a guitar distortion pedal between them lately) Set it to some pattern and just let it go. The wet/dry mix knob generally acts as a sort of crossfade for me. so, - set the delay to something extremely short, like less than 10ms, feedback all the way down, mix all the way wet. The drum machine should sound pretty normal. Turn the feedback up and you get these wierd synthy-ring-modulated percussion sounds. Basically, the delay is short enough to be an audible frequency itself, which gives the drum samples a totally new character. Vary the feedback knob to control the sound, sort of morphing between the normal and synthetic sounding one. Very fun and expressive. Now vary the delay time to change the character of the sound. On the echoplex I do this by setting RecordMode=SUS, so I can tap very lightly and get very short delays. I leave Overdub on all the time. Each time I tap the button I get a slighly different delay length, changing the sound. Go nuts with the feedback knob.... - Something like what you describe, where I use longer delays (somewhere between maybe a sixtenth and two beats in length) with the mix more towards the direct sound, and feedback in the middle somewhere. Use the mix knob to bring the delays in and out of the pattern, getting all sorts of weird rhythms. vary feedback to change the density of the rhythms. Change delay lengths to change the sort of rhthyms that come out. On the plex I just leave Overdub on all the time to keep the input open. You could also use delay mode. - Sync the delay to clock out from the drum machine. Make a loop of the drum machine pattern, playing them both next to each other. (sort of interesting just like that, since inaccuracies of midi clock always give you slight audio phase problems that can sound pretty cool) Reverse the loop, quantized so that it is still synced to the sequencer. Now you have the original and the reversed version playing together. By itself, that's ok but a little muddy. With judicious, rhythmic crossfading on the Mix knob, you can pull up reversed drum hits at regular points and get some interesting patterns. - On the Echoplex you can set the number of eighth notes in the pattern it is syncing to with midi clock, by using the 8ths/beat parameter. That's so you can sync loops to a 7/8 pattern or something. But we're just going to abuse that! Use a totally ordinary two bar drum pattern. Set the 8ths/beat parameter to some odd meter, like say 9, 11, 13, etc. Start the drum machine, and record a loop of it at some point. The percussion in the loop will be in tempo, but in a different time signature! Let the two play next to each other and you get a constantly evolving drum pattern. Sounds like the drum machine suddenly became very creative. Using the Mix knob to crossfade between the two makes one time signature or the other more dominant. time signature morphing I guess. lotsa fun. Those are the best things I've come up with so far, just fooling around with a pretty simple set up. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 10:03:01 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 3 19:44:43 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvD8U-0005kg-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:44:42 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9706251818.AA05226@beryllium.lexicon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:34:24 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: RE: Midi standards Resent-Message-ID: <"01cN1D.A.g8E.AEU5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/90 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:44:42 -0700 X-UIDL: 61ea4865391e79ca8477612584d06f7b Greg asked me this a while back, and I haven't had time to answer until now. I must say it has really been amusing to me. It's probably totally dull and technical to many of you, feel free to skip it. Basically a long rant directed at the MI industry in general, and maybe a little bit unnecessarily hard on Lexicon. No offense intended towards them, just trying to be provocative and stir things up a bit, as usual. I wrote most of it a while ago when I must have been more stressed out than I am now, so try not to get too peeved by the rough edges. I've chilled a bit since :-). Some interesting things to think about, hopefully: At 3:08 PM -0400 6/25/97, Hogan, Greg wrote: >Dear Kim, > >Can you please tell us where in the MIDI spec it states that program >change messages are ONLY for changing programs? I don't believe it does. > >Best regards, > >Greg Hogan >Lexicon Customer Service If the MIDI spec were to define everything by describing what you are not supposed to do with it, it would be infinitely long, would it not? That's why industry standards are not written that way! Industry standards are agreements between the members of a particular industry to use a common interface and greatly increase the possibility that devices from different manufacturers can operate together. They are not laws or regulations, and do not have agencies enforcing them. They merely have volunteers representing different parties, working together to define the standard and add clarifications and extensions where necessary. Complying with the standard is done as a matter of faith in the process. In the case of MIDI, we have the MIDI Manufacturers Association, or the MMA. The MMA is not big and powerful, and is not known for operating quickly, but they do appear to be quite dedicated to maintaining the integrity of the MIDI Standard. They have an electronic forum where members are able to discuss proposed changes and additions to the midi spec. Voting is held periodically to determine whether proposals should become official components of the spec. Examples of this sort of process of addition include Midi Sample Dump, Midi Show Control, and General Midi. I've never been active in this process myself, but I've followed it a little bit and may end up being involved one of these days. I think the definition of MIDI program change is clear and self-explanatory. It is for changing programs on a device. Programs are generally taken to mean the configuration a device is set to. With a synthesizer, sending Program Change on a given midi channel is understood to set the instrument used on that channel. With an effects device, it is understood that Program Change sets the patch that is currently being used to process audio. With a sequencer or drum machine, Program Change sets which pattern or song is currently cued up. To abstract this a little bit, Program Change alters the configuration of a device, but in no case does it execute a function. We have different commands to execute functions. For a synthesizer, we configure a channel with Program Change, but we execute on that channel with Note On and Note Off commands. With the sequencer, we execute with Start Song and Stop Song. We do not expect Program Change to cause any functional execution. Likewise, we do not expect Note On/Off or Start/Stop Song to change the device configuration. With an effects device, there is usually no concept of execution, because the processing is always on. Therefore, there is no corresponding "execute" command. In the case of the JamMan and other looping devices, we are not merely dealing with a passive effects device. We are dealing with a device that executes functions under control of the user. In my opinion, using MIDI Program Change messages to execute these functions is a significant deviation from the manner in which Program Change has traditionally been used in other devices, including other devices from Lexicon. So I wonder, Did Lexicon discuss this new use of Program Change with the MMA? Did Lexicon attempt to work with the MMA to determine which commands best suited their new type of need? Did Lexicon attempt to propose a new subset of MIDI commands for looping to the MMA, in the manner Charlie Richmond did with Midi Show Control when he wanted to use MIDI to control lighting rigs? Or did Lexicon glance at the MIDI 1.0 spec published in the early 80's, ignore the years of subsequent discussion, additions, and publications, see that the spec didn't say you couldn't use Program Change any way you wanted to, and just go ahead? Perhaps the fact that Lexicon has primarily dealt only with effects and processing is why they stumbled over this subtlety? If you never had to allow users to truly execute functions, could you have failed to realize the distiction that other devices have always dealt with? Or was it just convenience? Lots of potential users owned simple midi controllers that only sent Program Change, why not use that? "The MMA is too slow, and we want to sell product." Lots of people have taken that route, unfortunately. The classically simple decision with larger ramifications than anyone is realizing? How often do we complain about decisions that only help in the short term but hurt in the long term? And what do we do in the case of a looping device that can also have it's configuration changed? If there had been a JamManII with 128 presets, how would it's functional executions be controlled? Either you can't have 128 presets, or you can't be compatible with your own products! That would have been a troubling situation, and following the MIDI Standard spec would have helped you to avoid it. That's what standards are for! Not to mention the fact that it helps you to be compatible with other manufacturers. By making the seemingly trivial choice to use Program Change, I think that Lexicon effectively diluted a portion of the MIDI Standard specification and the MMA's process, and I think that was irresponsible on the part of a major manufacturer in the music industry. At the same time, I sincerely doubt there was any malicious intent to subvert the MIDI spec or the MMA, and suspect it is just a combination of ignorance and convenience. I know how easy that is, because I've made similar decisions myself. Lexicon is presumably a member of the MMA, but I really have no idea how active the company is in the organization. It is clear that they have been involved from the very earliest days, since Lexicon has manufacturer ID 6. My question to you, Greg: With your comments above, you don't mean to indicate that Lexicon is not totally committed to this history and the continuing process of evolving the Midi Standard specification, do you? Does it really make sense for Lexicon to try to justify what seems to me to have been a poor decision, with the reasoning you have used? Wouldn't it make more sense for Lexicon to say, "Yeah, that wasn't a very good idea. Sorry about that." I may seem a little insane for going on about this. But I hope you see what I am trying to get at. Looping devices are continuing to develop, and are becoming more sophisticated. We won't really be able to use Program Change to control these devices. It's not just the philisophical distinction between configuration and execution. Or the fact that Program Change will be needed for it's intended purpose. There are technical reasons too, since Program Change only sends one byte of information and a minimal control interface can take advantage of at least two. (that's why the echoplex uses note and controller messages, which send two bytes, for control. The interface is more sophisticated and Program Change doesn't convey enough info. This has it's own set of problems, less philosophically severe than the program change decision, but admittedly still troubling. That's why we let the user select which way they want the midi control to work, in the hopes that it doesn't conflict with something else.) We need a standard way to communicate with these devices, or we have chaos and the ability for a fledgling segment of the industry to grow is hampered. Lexicon probably doesn't care about that anymore, but it would be nice if a company with so much influence didn't continue supporting a position that limits the rest of us from developing future generations of looping products. Would that be too much to ask? thanks for your patience, and honestly not trying to offend, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 10:03:19 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 05:00:41 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvLoW-0007EL-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 05:00:40 -0700 X-Sender: illoyd@mail.intrlink.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:56:10 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: illoyd@intrlink.com (Ian///Shakespace) Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"RK6m8.A.TnG.TOc5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/93 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 05:00:40 -0700 X-UIDL: d73723ef22d1b52ec1c2131918a44904 Gonna give Kim a shot at most of this, but a few points I feel I must jump on: >From Part 3: >The difference is that if it's sampled, you've got a recording of somebody >else's music. If it's "sampled in your brain," then it's being filtered >through your own sensibilities. But the whole idea of (re)contextualising comes from how the sample is used in another piece of music. Sure 5 guitarists will play "Black Dog" slightly differently, and 5 techno artists will use the sample from "Black Dog" in different ways in wildly varying styles, but the guitarist is still just playing "Black Dog". So in a way, just as the guitarists sensibilities affect how he plays the guitar riff, a DJ's sensibilities affect how he uses the sample in a song or dropped into his set. >If you're actually playing, however, the "editing process" takes place >automatically -- and it takes place in a manner that no other human on the >face of the earth can precisely duplicate. I'd love to see someone, given the same bank of samples and even the same gear as me try to duplicate what i do in the studio. Easily 75% of what i do is live, tweaking synth filters and delays, fading bits in and out, manually triggering samples, guitar work... the "editing process" is just as live as if i sit down with my guitar and play the same arpeggio over and over, slightly different each time because my hand cramps up. >Look at the John Lennon song "Come Together." Apples and oranges, my friend. Kim was stating that creatively there's no difference between a sample of him and a sample of someone else, even if they're both playing the same thing. I understand your point with the Lennon example, and its a valid point, except it's not. Look who's recontextualising now... :-0 >What we're talking about is the difference between quoting somebody >else's idea, as opposed to out-and-out taking that idea and inserting it >into a different context. I will have to take this one up at a later date... this is a whole new thread too... >No, you're just five years behind the trend of all those rap producers >who sampled "Atomic Dog" in 10,000 different hip-hop songs. ;} See my counter to your Zeppelin example: each of those producers used the sample in a different way (unless you think all hip-hop sounds the same) and created an entirely new piece of work from it. Not slighting p-funk, but they always play it the same. ---- >From Part 4: >I would go on to say that tape-and-razors looping is the "classical" >precursor to MIDI-based sequencer editing. Hmmm... try and remove one note from a sequence and one note from a tape (and retain the loop length integrity) and then maybe you'll see why i'm taking issue with this. >Just look at where the term >"cut and paste" comes from! If you must know, the term comes from the graphic design field, and was cross-polinated to the music world with the first digital editors. >I agree with the first part of the sentence, though I am unconvinced that >we are indeed all doing the same thing. If you're looping your guitar and I'm looping your guitar, we're doing the same thing. given, we're doing it with different tools, but the fact of the matter is, we're both using the same technology to varying degrees to the same ends (making music). >I've come to the conclusion that if you want to talk about people >who are truly involved in what's being referred to a "electronica," then >you're dealing with more than just what sorts of beats and samples >they're using. It has to do with a whole lifestyle -- philosophy, >clothing, social behavior, language, spelling, et al. Man I really gotta say here that I _hate_ the term electronica and the way that the media has pigeonholed anythig with a dancey beat and synths as "electronica". Its too wide ranging I really can't see how anyone can put the Metalheadz in the same category as Future Sound Of London... But I digress... >They can join the ever-growing club. 8-{ But just wait -- they're gonna >*hate* me once they hear how I've bastardized their music... The whole point of electronica is accepting what others do and seeing how people change whats previously been done. Jungle was a prgression, it didn't just appear one day. Heck, if you would have told me 3 years ago I'd be working on stuff in the 160bpm range I would've laughed in your face! But slowly, the electronic music "scene" (and i'm using that broad-based word very dangerously here) has just expandced and expanded... >I hope so. In the meantime, I hope the last four posts or so have been >of some food for thought. And as always, no flames intended! Truly they have, and I hope my (our?) responses too have been... And obviously we're taking things too seriously if we get all bent out of shape here. Ugh, more to think about at work (gotta run!), and certainly more to come... Ian///Shakespace www.intrlink.com/~illoyd From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:05 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:05:11 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvROf-00027e-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:58:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199708041738.KAA24294@apple.com> Subject: Fwd: Re: Echoplex upgrade Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 12:40:45 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"OCkSzC.A.9EB.JRh5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/96 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:58:21 -0700 X-UIDL: 3550c3eb731e2ab09125a69d777ae3fd Here's what I got back from Oberheim in regards to the Echoplex upgrade. Travis *********************** Subject: Re: Echoplex upgrade Sent: 7/21/97 9:37 PM Received: 7/21/97 4:44 PM From: Dean Fouts, dfouts@gibson.com To: T.W. Hartnett, hartnett.t@apple.com Dear Mr. Hartnett, Thank you for your e-mail inquiring about the upgrade for the Oberheim Echoplex Digital Pro. To have the upgrade installed, you would need to send a cashier's check or money order for $80 payable to Oberheim to: GMI/Oberheim Attention: Dean/Customer Service 1818 Elm Hill Pike Nashville, TN 37217 Also, you will need to please e-mail me the following: serial number date & place of purchase home phone number (& work if you'd like) address from where you are shipping & return address (may be same) Upon receipt of this information and your payment, I can issue you a Return Authorization number & an address to where you may send your unit. I hope this information is helpful to you. I look forward to hearing from you. In the meantime, good luck with your musical pursuits and thanks again for your interest in Oberheim. Sincerely, Dean Fouts Oberheim Customer Service At 08:53 AM 7/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dean, > >I heard that the upgraded software for the Oberheim EDP is available. >How can I get it installed? > >Thanks, > >Travis Hartnett > > From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 10:03:21 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 06:59:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvNfK-0003Xu-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:59:18 -0700 Message-Id: <836.199708041355@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:55:21 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY Resent-Message-ID: <"8OI8-C.A.ZJD.09d5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/94 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:59:18 -0700 X-UIDL: aec4f73d1d141e1a182eabe8aa593d70 The Man said to The Moderator: >> What difference is it really if the sample is recorded on a hard disk >> or recorded on your brain? >The difference is that if it's sampled, you've got a recording of somebody >else's music. If it's "sampled in your brain," then it's being filtered >through your own sensibilities. One thing I have to add here is that most people remember ideas badly. It's also easier to mix ideas from wildly eclectic sources without sounding contrived when actually "playing an instrument" (yes I know a sampler is an instrument, don't get all PC on me here!!). Bill Frizell is a good example. >If you have five different people sample the same Zeppelin riff on the >same sampler, you're gonna get five identical samples. If you give five >different people the same guitar, and have them play the same Zeppelin >riff, you're going to get five subtly (or not so subtly) different >versions of that riff, because the riff is being filtered through the >basic fundamental aspects of what makes each one of us a seperate and >distinct human being. Now I don't think it's as profound as the fact that we're all separate and distinct human beings. It's more about being sloppy! :) If we (guitarists) all play "black dog" we're playing what we remember the riff to sound like, played using our sloppily-learned techniques which may/not be the same as Page's sloppy techniques. Teach everybody to play the same way, and....its GIT!!! :) If the sampler looks at the sample as the sound source, the equivalent is the guitarist looking at marshall&strat as a sound source. What makes this sound different in the hands of different players is touch (vibato etc) and phrasing. The problem I think many guitarists have with sampling is that many samplers (ie people who sample) don't vary their sound source much in these terms. Of course, when they remix it out of all recognition people complain that it sounds nothing like the original! >Of course, you can take that sample and tweak it to make it sound >different, but you can do the same thing with that riff an a guitar as >well. If you're sampling, you've got to deliberately go in and change it. >If you're actually playing, however, the "editing process" takes place >automatically -- and it takes place in a manner that no other human on the >face of the earth can precisely duplicate. The only thing that bothers me about sampling as such is that when a musician plays a live instrument a lot of the decisions are spur-of-the-moment. These things are often lost in studio construction. However, in the studio there is the opportunity to create a more focussed statement than might be achieved simply by improvising. There are arguments for both. If it's any consolation, I have always been a mammoth Art of Noise fan. Now _there_ was creative sampling.... >A lot of guitarists I know (including myself) think that Tom Morello's >solo on "Bulls On Parade," wherein he imitates the sound of a DJ >scratching a disc by sliding his hand up and down the fretboard while >toggling his pickup selector, was one of the hippest things to come out >last year. Sure sounds like a DJ scratching a record. So why not just >bring in a DJ to scratch? If you have to ask... I have to ask. This makes no sense to me at all. Finally, one from pt.4: > I've actually been using sequencers and drum machines for nine years -- that's > longer than I've been playing guitar! Of course, we all knew that from your GP resume... :) Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:43:45 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 10:15:23 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvQj2-00077e-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:15:20 -0700 From: Floyd Miller Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708041704.NAA02508@omni1.voicenet.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Echoplex Upgrade availability Resent-Message-ID: <"fbfkwB.A.41F.Wvg5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/95 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:15:20 -0700 X-UIDL: 6a79ea751d55ae62bc950fda12289fd6 Has anyone found out where and how to obtain the new upgrade? (and if you have, would you share any information, please?) From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:04 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 11:48:48 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvSBR-0005Dk-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:48:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:34:23 -0400 From: Michael Peters Subject: enticing subjects part 1 To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Message-ID: <199708041434_MC2-1C50-1DD1@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"JkPj5.A.NJE.eFi5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/97 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:48:45 -0700 X-UIDL: 251e5de3198642201560f5f0f91799a4 Jim asks, >Has anyone done any amazing pieces using nothing but cardboard boxes? I've done it a couple of years ago in one of my rare non-guitar pieces . It wasn't cardboard boxes exclusively, but they played the solo. No kidding! The voice was doubled by a plastic box. I took the empty open box (without its lid), put it upside down on a very smooth stony surface, and moved it along, pressing a little which produced a sad, unstable sound a little bit like a muffled trumpet. For a few seconds I could produce a stable pitch which then broke into pieces. Very interesting! I put that into my sampler, cut off the beginning, and voila! I had a breathtaking new solo voice. The squeaking plastic box was even better (it made my hair stand on end). The most interesting part of the voices was the ending with the stable pitch breaking apart into a howling mess. ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:16 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:30:54 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvTmG-00068U-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:30:52 -0700 Message-Id: <9708042018.AA22325@beryllium.lexicon.com> Priority: urgent Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:03:00 -0400 From: "Hogan, Greg" Subject: RE: Midi standards To: Loopers-Delight X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Resent-Message-ID: <"By00nC.A.QKF.Irj5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/102 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:30:52 -0700 X-UIDL: 1daea2af6ec5cb3c82b1d3f931508054 Hi Kim, It seems like the answer is no, the MIDI spec does not imply that MIDI program change messages are ONLY for program changes. I don't think that it would take up a lot of space in the document for it to imply so either! I agree that we might need new controls and new definitions for new technologies and/or non-traditional uses of old technologies. However if we had to wait for such standardization for these tools they may never get put to market or even created. I can not answer all of your questions as to exactly how Lexicon made the decision to control the JAMMAN via program change messages. I do know that we did not break any rules in this regard and I feel that your charge of being unethical is unfair. My suspicion is that the decison was based on the fact that it was an easy and cost effective way to give our customers the most amount of control over the machine. Lazy? Maybe. Bad judgement? Perhaps, but I don't think so. Unethical? Absolutely not! Is Lexicon impeding the evolution of the MIDI standard by this action? I don't see how. Should Lexicon or anyone else wait for the standard evolve before implementing any non-traditional uses of these controllers? I don't believe that anybody would want to wait for innovations to be standardized. Isn't part of creativity the the bending or breaking of tradition in order to push the boundaries further? Finally, I fail to see how this would prevent you or anyone else from developing the looping tool of the future. I am not here to defend Lexicon right or wrong. You stated that our use of program change messages in regard to the JAMMAN was unethical and I found your statement a bit hard to swallow. Once more I do thank you for this forum. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email: ghogan@lexicon.com From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:06 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:08:12 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvTQH-0003Ze-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:08:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:04:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Nameless to the Goddess To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: starting out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ev0YvC.A.9AD.hXj5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/98 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:08:09 -0700 X-UIDL: aeab6a8a6deed71d9e6271a7172fa0c2 So say I'm thinking about starting out with loop music and don't want to necessarily drop a load of cash for the absolutely top of the line device, for both reasons of simplicity and it possibly being a bad idea. What would you suggest? (always looking for something to expand beyond the solo-bass pit) DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111@afn.org <*> Why am I such a dork? The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 B5 (passing beyond the Rim) list: babylon5-request@gatekey.com From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:07 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:12:28 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvTUP-00047L-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:12:25 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"X6endB.A.3YD.4aj5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/99 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:12:25 -0700 X-UIDL: 8977b8b97537c63b8446c3a2d90d2657 So much for electronica being under-represented on the list... :) On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Ian///Shakespace wrote: > But the whole idea of (re)contextualising comes from how the sample is used > in another piece of music. Sure 5 guitarists will play "Black Dog" slightly > differently, and 5 techno artists will use the sample from "Black Dog" in > different ways in wildly varying styles, but the guitarist is still just > playing "Black Dog". And the DJ is still "just" sampling it! > So in a way, just as the guitarists sensibilities > affect how he plays the guitar riff, a DJ's sensibilities affect how he > uses the sample in a song or dropped into his set. But again, the "sensibilities" that are at work with a guitarist are an intangible, organic, built-in thing, and they're there from the crack of the cosmic DNA. It's a fundamentally different sort of thing than how a digital recording of someone else's music is being played back. It's like the difference between a painting and a photograph. Different photographers will take different sorts of pictures of the same thing, but the degree of implicit, preliminary variation and distinction just isn't on par to what you'll get if different painters work off of the same model. > I'd love to see someone, given the same bank of samples and even the same > gear as me try to duplicate what i do in the studio. Easily 75% of what i > do is live, tweaking synth filters and delays, fading bits in and out, > manually triggering samples, guitar work... the "editing process" is just > as live as if i sit down with my guitar and play the same arpeggio over and > over, slightly different each time because my hand cramps up. This is all very true. I think for me the bottom line is that if you're working with samples, even if you're tweaking and recontextualizing the thing to the nth degree, you're still working with blocks of other people's material, in a way that's far more overt and undiluted than if you're translating that material through your own performance. This is really the crux of a lot of this thread: The difference between working with someone else's performance as opposed to working with your own performance. This is ultimately a very personal issue, and for some people there's basically no difference at all. For myself, I know that there's a sense of satisfaction and reward that I get from playing guitar that I definitely *don't* get from sitting in front of a computer screen for a few hours. Both methods of making music are very important to me, but if I had to choose between electronic music or guitar, the Mac would be out the window in a heartbeat. > >Look at the John Lennon song "Come Together." > > Apples and oranges, my friend. Kim was stating that creatively there's no > difference between a sample of him and a sample of someone else, even if > they're both playing the same thing. I understand your point with the > Lennon example, and its a valid point, except it's not. Look who's > recontextualising now... :-0 Hmmm... well, if Kim (or whoever else) really doesn't see a difference between those two things, I can't say he's wrong. I personally would feel very uncomfortable with inserting a sample of someone else's music into my own; even the recent slew of sample CD-ROMS is non-kosher for me. I've heard some great things done with them (the drum tracks on the last Torn album come to mind), but for my own part, I just can't bear the thought of literally buying music off the shelf. I can live with using the basic samples that are in my sound modules, but when it comes to the actual gestures and rhythms, I don't feel right unless I'm setting them in motion. > >From Part 4: > >I would go on to say that tape-and-razors looping is the "classical" > >precursor to MIDI-based sequencer editing. > > Hmmm... try and remove one note from a sequence and one note from a tape > (and retain the loop length integrity) and then maybe you'll see why i'm > taking issue with this. I'm not saying that each format is identical to the other in terms of what you can do. Your observation is absolutely spot-on, but I still think that when you drag a mouse over a section of a sequence to copy it to another location, then there's a historical precedent for that in people splicing reel-to-reel tapes. It's the same with looping: you can't do the same sort of looping with a JamMan that you can with two Revoxes, but I do think that the former represents the evolution of an idea developed by the latter. > >Just look at where the term > >"cut and paste" comes from! > > If you must know, the term comes from the graphic design field, and was > cross-polinated to the music world with the first digital editors. I stand corrected. One day musicians will get out of our centuries-old habit of waiting for the visual arts world to come up with terminology that we can then rip off! > If you're looping your guitar and I'm looping your guitar, we're doing the > same thing. given, we're doing it with different tools, but the fact of the > matter is, we're both using the same technology to varying degrees to the > same ends (making music). True, but within that general realm of similarity is contained a universe of different possibilities. (This is getting a bit high on the "muso" scale... maybe I'd better go watch "Contact." 8-/) > Man I really gotta say here that I _hate_ the term electronica and the way > that the media has pigeonholed anythig with a dancey beat and synths as > "electronica". Its too wide ranging I really can't see how anyone can put > the Metalheadz in the same category as Future Sound Of London... But I > digress... I feel a bit funny about the "electronica" tag myself, but I do think it makes a certain amount of sense. The first serious "rave culture" mag I checked out was _URB_, and (coincidentally to your example above) there were articles on both FSOL and Metalheadz in the same issue. It's a wide-ranging category, but I still think that you can put those two groups in the same general territory, just as you can put Charlie Parker and Ornette Coleman in the same area, or Chuck Berry and Eddie Van Halen. And in the case of electronica, I think it's a territory populated by people who subscribe to a different philosophy than I do. BTW, if you've got a better suggestion as far as terminology goes, I'd genuinely love to hear it. > The whole point of electronica is accepting what others do and seeing how > people change whats previously been done. I don't know if everything I've seen in electronica supports your claim. A lot of people within that community have written off Prodigy as being showbiz distillations of the more superficial aspects of that scene. (And these claims were around a long time before _Fat Of The Land_ was a hit). Then you've got people knocking groups like Everything But The Girl and David Bowie for allegedly jumping on the proverbial bandwagon to try and graft some contemporary relevance onto themselves (whether or not that's the case is a matter I shan't attempt here). I must say that I see quite a bit of disagreement and dispute in *any* artistic scene, and electronica is no exception. That's healthy for any artistic "scene": different ideas get tossed around, and sometimes the different perspectives form the basis of some pretty vehement disagreement. That's not a bad thing, but I think your assessment of the electronic dance culture as being inherently open to anything is unrealistic. If that were indeed the case, it would likely be a lot less interesting than it is. (Which reminds me, I've got to start looking for loop gigs at techno clubs, if only to see the looks on people's faces when I walk into the gig with a guitar instead of a turntable). > But slowly, the electronic music "scene" (and i'm using that broad-based > word very dangerously here) has just expandced and expanded... I read an interview with LTJ Buken where he said that he wanted his music to go global. Well, when he's got former shred-head guitarists from Iowa programming jungle rhythms, he might well reconsider the wisdom of that wish... :} > And > obviously we're taking things too seriously if we get all bent out of shape > here. I'm pretty sure we're taking them too seriously anyway! --Andre From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:17 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:33:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvTob-0006Qw-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:33:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199708042029.NAA21500@usr10.primenet.com> From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: starting out Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:28:21 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TcINJD.A.lnF.Cvj5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/103 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:33:17 -0700 X-UIDL: 19d15f4c53ee369db6c6274b0b6dc6e1 Posted: > > So say I'm thinking about starting out with loop music and don't want to > necessarily drop a load of cash for the absolutely top of the line device, > for both reasons of simplicity and it possibly being a bad idea. What would > you suggest? > > (always looking for something to expand beyond the solo-bass pit) First off, look for a used-goods newspaper in your area. Los Angeles (where I currently reside) is a fantastic place to look for used musical equipment, since there are a lot of musicians and recently-ex-musicians getting rid of equipment there... The paper here's the Recycler (used, incidentally, by Thomas Dolby in '88 to recruit band members for his tour-at-the-time). I'm sure there are equivalents elsewhere. I experimented with a lot of really crappy equipment - most of it old reel-to-reel equipment that should have been pasteurized long ago - and finally bought both my looping unit (Digitech 7.6) and effects/ambiance unit (QuadraVerb +), for $125 each! In most cases people get rid of this stuff (in THIS town anyway), when they've got some more money and they're just upgrading. I haven't had a problem yet [crossing fingers while preparing the first series of gigs for the next few months]... One PENULTIMATE RULE, though: If it's got an Anvil case, don't even call 'em up - if it's got a case, it's been out of someone's living room. Well, most likely, on tour, and all over Hell and Back. My Juno-106 synth is still kicking, and I bought it for $400 in '87, from the guy who wrote "Jump" for the Pointer Sisters (the strings wash used in the repeating hook is actually the default #1 patch!)....! Well, hope this helps. * Stephen Goodman It's the Loop Of The Week! And it's free! * EarthLight Productions http://www.earthlight.net/Studios From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:21 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:45:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvU0o-0007bB-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:45:54 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ambient? In-Reply-To: <1493@mainstring.win.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KaMB6D.A.nzG.P6j5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/104 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:45:54 -0700 X-UIDL: 616ba0d8871022f2e9c3e1170381ec7a On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Pat Kirtley wrote: > >>People have wondered why so many assumptions tend to be made about > >>"loop-based" music being equated with "ambient" music, and why there seem > >>to be so many Big Three-wielding guitar players on this list. > > Let's simply quit making all those assumptions. And let's drop the "big > three" terminology. The passage of time changes all of this pretty quickly > --any given embodiment of technology is ephemeral. Fine. If you've got a better way of referring to the Echoplex, JamMan, and Boomerang without actually having to write out their names, I'd love to hear it. If you don't think that these *three* units occupy a distinct and fairly unique place in the realm of looping with regards to the details of their design and the features they offer, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing why not. If you honestly don't think that guitarists who use one of the B** T***e units comprise a majority of those who are *presently* subscribed to the list, I'd like to hear the evidence you have to the contrary. I'll say it again: I'm not trying to make qualitative judgements about "Those loop-based units of which three is the number, and the number is three... thou shalt not count five, nor two, save that it then be followed by three..." being inherently better vehicles for artistic expression. I think some people have interpreted my posts as elitist manifestos of manifest destiny rule by Oberheim, Boomerang, or Lexicon customers, and as statements that I want this list to remain dominated by guitar players who utlilize one of the... well, you know. That's *not* the case! I'm not trying to "draw lines in the sand" beyond which no outsiders may pass. This whole epic started off with me offering some ideas as to why there seemed to be a dominance of the aforementioned demographic group. I'm simply trying to talk concisely and effectively -- and *realistically* about how things seemto be represented on this list *at this moment in time*. And I honestly don't think I'm doing that in an inaccurate way. This is starting to get a bit silly... --Andre From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:28 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 15:18:36 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvVSU-0005mk-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:18:34 -0700 Message-Id: <9820.199708042215@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:15:07 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"Tp0NFC.A.MNF.SSl5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/105 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:18:34 -0700 X-UIDL: 1c191baa28625866a082c1a72438a96c The Man attracted The Controversy: >> But the whole idea of (re)contextualising comes from how the sample is used >> in another piece of music. Sure 5 guitarists will play "Black Dog" slightly >> differently, and 5 techno artists will use the sample from "Black Dog" in >> different ways in wildly varying styles, but the guitarist is still just >> playing "Black Dog". >And the DJ is still "just" sampling it! The way I look at it is like this: either view it as a partnership between DJ and player, or a partnership between composer/conductor and orchestra. Either is still considered creatively acceptable@ :) >> So in a way, just as the guitarists sensibilities >> affect how he plays the guitar riff, a DJ's sensibilities affect how he >> uses the sample in a song or dropped into his set. >But again, the "sensibilities" that are at work with a guitarist are an >intangible, organic, built-in thing, and they're there from the crack of >the cosmic DNA. Woah, I think there may be a touch of overemphasis on that point. Guitarists are no nearer the cosmic source than anyone else ('cept maybe Jerry Garcia), we're just hittin' bits of wire an' wood in a way that pleases us. I _do_ understand where you're coming from, in that I find synths etc sort of "isolating" instruments where I don't have enough control over the sound, like I do with guitar. But that has nothing to do with the quality of music produced. A good example - how do the sensibilities of a harpsichordist fit into this? >It's like the difference between a painting and a photograph. Different >photographers will take different sorts of pictures of the same thing, but >the degree of implicit, preliminary variation and distinction just isn't >on par to what you'll get if different painters work off of the same >model. Yes, but a painter will never be able to achieve the look, the clean lines, of a photograph. And I (as a guitarist) will never be able to sound like Kraftwerk. Damn. :( >This is all very true. I think for me the bottom line is that if you're >working with samples, even if you're tweaking and recontextualizing the >thing to the nth degree, you're still working with blocks of other >people's material, in a way that's far more overt and undiluted than if >you're translating that material through your own performance. Andre, you mentioned in another post that you would be playing in coming gigs with a guitar synth. If this is anything post '88 or so, you are fundamentally _playing_with_samples_. OK the samples are short sections of sampled intrument waves, but samples nonetheless. Now we get to a second question - how long does a sample need to be before it ceases to be the DJ's own creation? :) >True, but within that general realm of similarity is contained a universe >of different possibilities. (This is getting a bit high on the "muso" >scale... maybe I'd better go watch "Contact." 8-/) No, I think maybe The Simpsons... back to ground level! :b Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:15 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:16:02 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvTXt-0004Yq-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:16:01 -0700 X-Mailer: WinNET Mail, v2.61 Message-ID: <1493@mainstring.win.net> Reply-To: pk@mainstring.win.net (Pat Kirtley) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 15:41:09 Subject: Re: Ambient? From: pk@mainstring.win.net (Pat Kirtley) Resent-Message-ID: <"sgjZcD.A.G1D.bej5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/101 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:16:01 -0700 X-UIDL: d9d4e657ee4c0d55f64fae8282b3acd7 This is an interesting topic. I think this thread sprung from a question about how to categorize loop music on a performance calendar-database, but it's a good issue on its own. Some people are apparently adverse to having their music called "ambient". One suggested that this thread is about the "tyranny of ambient". John Cage once emerged from a soundproof room and declared that there is no such thing as silence. To Cage, any and every "ambience" became music. The residual rustle and tone and beat of ambient sound is around us always. The issue that's brought up here is: what is "ambient music", what's it for, and what does it have to do with looping? I know relatively little about the music of other cultures, but I'll bet ambient music is no recent development. I would define it as music which is consciously designed to fit in with other ongoing activities and to enhance the experience of those activities. We also use the term "background music". However, due to the simplistic and pervasive application of products from Muzak, Inc., that term has a highly negative connotation in creative music circles. Indeed, background music has a place in life. But "elevator music" is not ambient music. Why? Once background music pops into our foreground attention, it's not part of the ambience any more. Elevator music is a mis-application of ambience. In a fancy restaurant, when a classical guitarist is performing miscellaneous pieces in a far corner, he can be a positive contribution to the ambience. When he comes over to your table to "entertain" you, then he's not ambient. In fact, he may well be (using exactly the same music you didn't mind hearing five minutes before) totally annoying. When ambient music makes us "feel" a certain way, without rising in our consciousness above the near-subliminal attention level, it can be powerful. But it's a fine line to tread. Diane Ackerman writes in her book "A Natural History of the Senses": "Virtually all movies these days have soundtracks and background music. The assumption must be that we need music to provide us with quick, relevant emotions. Is this because we don't think the world is worth listening to? Is it because filmmakers wish to combine words and music for the most powerful effect?" Music producers for films and TV DO use underlying music for emotional and punctiational effect. In that context, they are making successful ambient music. One of the best ambient music creations I've experienced is performed twenty four hours a day, two stories underground in a long connecting passage- tunnel between two concourses at O'Hare airport in Chicago. The music is just tones and sounds, and interactively follows several parameters, including the background people-generated sound level, and also tracks a sequence pattern of changing neon tube-sculptures in the ceiling. The music is also "zoned" so that somewhat different sound patterns occur in different parts of the tunnel. This ambient music successfully rides in that space between subliminal consciousness and directed attention. If you are alone and quiet, it creates a positive, light, atmosphere (and also makes you aware of the relative silence or conversational level around you). If you are in a group, and having a conversation, it may be completely ignored. So it's just *there*-- a part of the building. Brian Eno has also made several such ambient creations, and I've read of members of this list doing the same. To me this is the *real* background music, and when done right, it is wonderful. The more salient issue in this thread is that of live performance of ambient music. I don't see how one could call it ambient music, by the above definition, if people are being implicitly requested to pay attention to it. So if a club owner looks confused when a group tells him the style of music they play is "ambient", it wouldn't surprise me. "Ambient" is a valid classification of a type of music, but outside of music created to accompany another activity, I don't see it as a logical way to describe a stage-performance style. With regard to loop-music being "ambient" music-- Why not? I think we should see looping as a technique, not a style of music. Bach used lots of arpeggios in his compositions, but we don't say that he made "arpeggio music". People trading ideas on this list call themselves loopers (here) because that's what this discussion group focuses on. But mostly they are *musicians* and sometimes *composers*. If a composer uses loop-technique to create a dense wash of underlying sound for a movie scene, we could well call it "ambient music", and still call him a "looper" (and in the movie credits he would be called "composer"). And when a guy gets up on a stage with a bass player and drummer, and he starts laying down loop tracks as a background and then starts riffing over the top of it all, it certainly is not ambient music, and we can still call him a looper, if we like. But in the newspaper listing he would probably be called a 'jazz artist". It would be nice if all genre-labeling could be dropped, and people would just listen to the music. Descriptions are in many ways anti-music. The Man Himself wrote: >>Two cents on the ongoing "tyranny of ambient" thread... >> >>People have wondered why so many assumptions tend to be made about >>"loop-based" music being equated with "ambient" music, and why there seem >>to be so many Big Three-wielding guitar players on this list. Let's simply quit making all those assumptions. And let's drop the "big three" terminology. The passage of time changes all of this pretty quickly --any given embodiment of technology is ephemeral. As to why there are so many loopers who are guitar players on this list-- I would like to think that it's just because there are MANY guitar players in the world, and a (small) proportion of them are also experimental / compositional musicians. And that looping technique is a powerful way to experiment with musical composition with a guitar. And those experimenters of guitar - loop - composition have aggregated in this wonderful little corner of cyberville. The guitar is capable of many diverse tone qualities and sounds. Pure tone, sustained tone, harmonic-rich acoustic tones, searing distortion, muted distortion, lush chords, power-strumming, bass lines, scratching, bending, whammying, tapping, hammering, thumping, e-bowing... It's just that the guitarist doesn't tend to make all of those sounds at the same time. With looping technique, a guitarist-composer can make powerful layered concoctions of sound from these ingredients, and add herbs and spices too. The guitar is a visceral, organic, tone generator. A looping device can be seen as a sound-combiner and in a very literal way, a guitar-multiplier. Let's end the confusion about Ambient, and just let it live, in its place, alongside all the other arbitrary descriptions the world is compelled to impose on the music we make. Pat Kirtley From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:29 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 16:07:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvWDx-0001Cg-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:07:37 -0700 Message-Id: <9708042306.AA23086@beryllium.lexicon.com> Priority: urgent Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:43:00 -0400 From: "Sellon, Bob" Subject: RE: Midi standards To: Loopers-Delight X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Resent-Message-ID: <"EHoP-B.A.F5.8_l5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/106 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:07:37 -0700 X-UIDL: 800b39bdb2bc055d55254e163e35e05d Just a few comments on Kim's "Program Change" discussion. While I can appreciate Kim's emotion over our apparent misuse of the MIDI Program Change message, I'm still not convinced that it was an entirely bad decision. Our decision to use Program Change messages for operational commands was made entirely for the benefit of our customers. At the time JamMan was released there were precious few MIDI foot controllers available and it seemed like the ones that were reasonably priced only transmitted program change messages. Our intent was to provide extended control of the JamMan for people on a tight budget and I think we did that. Another advantage to Program Change messages over Continuous Controllers is set up. Most foot controllers generate Program Change messages without any special configuration by the operator. Generating Continuous Controllers generally requires going into an edit mode and tweeking. My experience has been that most musicians don't want to have to tweek at all (many don't even like MIDI much less care about what messages are being sent). They want to plug it in and have it work. Done. If we have insulted the MMA by misusing the Program Change message, on behalf of Lexicon, I apologize. Our intent was to encourage the use of MIDI not to scare people away from it. MIDI has been getting a bad rap lately and if using Program Changes to execute functions instead of changing programs makes it less painful for people to use it, then I have no problem with it. We did not fundamentally change the MIDI spec we just gave people an easy way to use it. Bob Sellon Lexicon/Stec ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 1997 7:34 PM To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: Midi standards ---------------------------------------------------- Greg asked me this a while back, and I haven't had time to answer until now. I must say it has really been amusing to me. It's probably totally dull and technical to many of you, feel free to skip it. Basically a long rant directed at the MI industry in general, and maybe a little bit unnecessarily hard on Lexicon. No offense intended towards them, just trying to be provocative and stir things up a bit, as usual. I wrote most of it a while ago when I must have been more stressed out than I am now, so try not to get too peeved by the rough edges. I've chilled a bit since :-). Some interesting things to think about, hopefully: At 3:08 PM -0400 6/25/97, Hogan, Greg wrote: >Dear Kim, > >Can you please tell us where in the MIDI spec it states that program >change messages are ONLY for changing programs? I don't believe it does. > >Best regards, > >Greg Hogan >Lexicon Customer Service If the MIDI spec were to define everything by describing what you are not supposed to do with it, it would be infinitely long, would it not? That's why industry standards are not written that way! Industry standards are agreements between the members of a particular industry to use a common interface and greatly increase the possibility that devices from different manufacturers can operate together. They are not laws or regulations, and do not have agencies enforcing them. They merely have volunteers representing different parties, working together to define the standard and add clarifications and extensions where necessary. Complying with the standard is done as a matter of faith in the process. In the case of MIDI, we have the MIDI Manufacturers Association, or the MMA. The MMA is not big and powerful, and is not known for operating quickly, but they do appear to be quite dedicated to maintaining the integrity of the MIDI Standard. They have an electronic forum where members are able to discuss proposed changes and additions to the midi spec. Voting is held periodically to determine whether proposals should become official components of the spec. Examples of this sort of process of addition include Midi Sample Dump, Midi Show Control, and General Midi. I've never been active in this process myself, but I've followed it a little bit and may end up being involved one of these days. I think the definition of MIDI program change is clear and self-explanatory. It is for changing programs on a device. Programs are generally taken to mean the configuration a device is set to. With a synthesizer, sending Program Change on a given midi channel is understood to set the instrument used on that channel. With an effects device, it is understood that Program Change sets the patch that is currently being used to process audio. With a sequencer or drum machine, Program Change sets which pattern or song is currently cued up. To abstract this a little bit, Program Change alters the configuration of a device, but in no case does it execute a function. We have different commands to execute functions. For a synthesizer, we configure a channel with Program Change, but we execute on that channel with Note On and Note Off commands. With the sequencer, we execute with Start Song and Stop Song. We do not expect Program Change to cause any functional execution. Likewise, we do not expect Note On/Off or Start/Stop Song to change the device configuration. With an effects device, there is usually no concept of execution, because the processing is always on. Therefore, there is no corresponding "execute" command. In the case of the JamMan and other looping devices, we are not merely dealing with a passive effects device. We are dealing with a device that executes functions under control of the user. In my opinion, using MIDI Program Change messages to execute these functions is a significant deviation from the manner in which Program Change has traditionally been used in other devices, including other devices from Lexicon. So I wonder, Did Lexicon discuss this new use of Program Change with the MMA? Did Lexicon attempt to work with the MMA to determine which commands best suited their new type of need? Did Lexicon attempt to propose a new subset of MIDI commands for looping to the MMA, in the manner Charlie Richmond did with Midi Show Control when he wanted to use MIDI to control lighting rigs? Or did Lexicon glance at the MIDI 1.0 spec published in the early 80's, ignore the years of subsequent discussion, additions, and publications, see that the spec didn't say you couldn't use Program Change any way you wanted to, and just go ahead? Perhaps the fact that Lexicon has primarily dealt only with effects and processing is why they stumbled over this subtlety? If you never had to allow users to truly execute functions, could you have failed to realize the distiction that other devices have always dealt with? Or was it just convenience? Lots of potential users owned simple midi controllers that only sent Program Change, why not use that? "The MMA is too slow, and we want to sell product." Lots of people have taken that route, unfortunately. The classically simple decision with larger ramifications than anyone is realizing? How often do we complain about decisions that only help in the short term but hurt in the long term? And what do we do in the case of a looping device that can also have it's configuration changed? If there had been a JamManII with 128 presets, how would it's functional executions be controlled? Either you can't have 128 presets, or you can't be compatible with your own products! That would have been a troubling situation, and following the MIDI Standard spec would have helped you to avoid it. That's what standards are for! Not to mention the fact that it helps you to be compatible with other manufacturers. By making the seemingly trivial choice to use Program Change, I think that Lexicon effectively diluted a portion of the MIDI Standard specification and the MMA's process, and I think that was irresponsible on the part of a major manufacturer in the music industry. At the same time, I sincerely doubt there was any malicious intent to subvert the MIDI spec or the MMA, and suspect it is just a combination of ignorance and convenience. I know how easy that is, because I've made similar decisions myself. Lexicon is presumably a member of the MMA, but I really have no idea how active the company is in the organization. It is clear that they have been involved from the very earliest days, since Lexicon has manufacturer ID 6. My question to you, Greg: With your comments above, you don't mean to indicate that Lexicon is not totally committed to this history and the continuing process of evolving the Midi Standard specification, do you? Does it really make sense for Lexicon to try to justify what seems to me to have been a poor decision, with the reasoning you have used? Wouldn't it make more sense for Lexicon to say, "Yeah, that wasn't a very good idea. Sorry about that." I may seem a little insane for going on about this. But I hope you see what I am trying to get at. Looping devices are continuing to develop, and are becoming more sophisticated. We won't really be able to use Program Change to control these devices. It's not just the philisophical distinction between configuration and execution. Or the fact that Program Change will be needed for it's intended purpose. There are technical reasons too, since Program Change only sends one byte of information and a minimal control interface can take advantage of at least two. (that's why the echoplex uses note and controller messages, which send two bytes, for control. The interface is more sophisticated and Program Change doesn't convey enough info. This has it's own set of problems, less philosophically severe than the program change decision, but admittedly still troubling. That's why we let the user select which way they want the midi control to work, in the hopes that it doesn't conflict with something else.) We need a standard way to communicate with these devices, or we have chaos and the ability for a fledgling segment of the industry to grow is hampered. Lexicon probably doesn't care about that anymore, but it would be nice if a company with so much influence didn't continue supporting a position that limits the rest of us from developing future generations of looping products. Would that be too much to ask? thanks for your patience, and honestly not trying to offend, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:14 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 13:15:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvTXC-0004T4-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:15:18 -0700 Message-ID: <33E665A1.3B37@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 16:28:33 -0700 From: Rick Canton Organization: Kaynar , Ent. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Echoplex upgrade References: <199708041738.KAA24294@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c4jKsD.A.TsD.Udj5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/100 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:15:18 -0700 X-UIDL: de9538d97928e09feaa519bdf1be625e T.W. Hartnett wrote: > > Here's what I got back from Oberheim in regards to the Echoplex upgrade. > > Travis > > *********************** > > Subject: Re: Echoplex upgrade > Sent: 7/21/97 9:37 PM > Received: 7/21/97 4:44 PM > From: Dean Fouts, dfouts@gibson.com > To: T.W. Hartnett, hartnett.t@apple.com > > Dear Mr. Hartnett, > Thank you for your e-mail inquiring about the upgrade for the Oberheim > Echoplex Digital Pro. To have the upgrade installed, you would need to > send a cashier's check or money order for $80 payable to Oberheim to: > > GMI/Oberheim > Attention: Dean/Customer Service > 1818 Elm Hill Pike > Nashville, TN 37217 > > Also, you will need to please e-mail me the following: > > serial number > date & place of purchase > home phone number (& work if you'd like) > address from where you are shipping & return address (may be same) > > Upon receipt of this information and your payment, I can issue you a > Return > Authorization number & an address to where you may send your unit. > > I hope this information is helpful to you. I look forward to hearing from > you. In the meantime, good luck with your musical pursuits and thanks > again for your interest in Oberheim. > > Sincerely, > > Dean Fouts > Oberheim Customer Service > > > At 08:53 AM 7/17/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Dean, > > > >I heard that the upgraded software for the Oberheim EDP is available. > >How can I get it installed? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Travis Hartnett > > > > so does this mean that the upgrad is not user installable? also , is there any way to fix one part of an led that isn`t working?...in the # on the far right where the time counts while making a loop , part of that # doesn`t light....anyone? thanks in advance , rick From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:39 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 16:35:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvWfJ-0003Bc-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:35:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199708042333.QAA00872@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Midi standards Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:35:16 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_WZceB.A.rsC.Gam5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/107 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:35:53 -0700 X-UIDL: 98c5168efbae6a4131eac864140e4569 > From: Sellon, Bob > While I can appreciate Kim's emotion over our apparent misuse of the MIDI > Program Change message, I'm still not convinced that it was an entirely bad > decision. Our decision to use Program Change messages for operational > > commands was made entirely for the benefit of our customers. At the time > JamMan was released there were precious few MIDI foot controllers available and it > seemed like the ones that were reasonably priced only transmitted program > change messages. Our > intent was to provide extended control of the JamMan for people on a tight > budget and I think we did that. And this works fine *if* you have a *dedicated* foot controller for the JamMan. If you already own a foot controller that was designed, primarily, to change patches on another effects processor (case in point, the GSP-2101 and Control One foot controller) you are out of luck if you desire to use the controller to control *both* units simultaneously. Granted, you *can* use the controller if you don't mind changing patches on the 2101 everything you punch in and out of a loop -- but this isn't the best arrangement. In fact, it sucks. (The obvious answer is to remap the foot controller so that certain patches don't transmit to the 2101...unfortunately...last time I tried, there was no way to do this. You see, the foot controller gets its power from the 2101.) > requires going into an edit mode and tweaking. My experience has been > that most musicians don't want to have to tweak at all (many don't even like > MIDI much less care about what messages are being sent). They want to plug it > in and have it work. Done. So basically, while catering to the lowest common denominator, Lexicon's design choice has made it difficult for musicians you *use* MIDI to integrate the JamMan into their MIDI-ifed rig without adding additional foot controllers. Alas. I still like my JamMan. Matt From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:46 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 21:04:52 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvarX-0003Ow-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:04:47 -0700 From: sarajane@tmbsbbs.com (Sarajane) Subject: tyrannical ambient front Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:33:13 GMT Message-Id: <97080422000376@tmbsbbs.com> Organization: The Malibu Bikini Shop BBS - 303.772.8549 - 28.8 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"WO2uKB.A.R0C.0Vq5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/113 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:04:47 -0700 X-UIDL: 174eec8a7c7b04713d309cfa40e98ed8 Caution: The following remarks are by a card carrying member of the "Tyrannical Ambient Front". Those easily offended by the lack of respect given to tradional musical logic, should avert their gaze now................or read on, and gather new scorn. With all due respect to the recent astute and insightful comments made by Kim & Andre and others on the issue of ambience, wait! You've forgotten the extremely quiet and unobtrusive subject that you chose to discuss initially. Don't take offense, everybody does it. I don't remember the last time I read any print media relating to supposedly "ambient music" that didn't immediately veer of into little more than a lame discography with no discussion of the genre's history. Once "new age" came along as a catch all (featuring well behaved synthesizers,audiences, and sales figures) then critics could sweep those pesky musical innovators passive and static alike, under the new age rug. That a style of music that seeks to, "mingle with the sounds of knives and forks at the dinnertable"-Satie or be"as ignorable as it is listenable"-Eno ,should find itself unable to articulate it's concerns as they relate to it's being an evolving musical style, is not surprising. But their is over 100 years of work between Satie and Eno, by a wide array of artists who have utilized traditional and electronic means of composition to archive explorations into sonic spaces never heard before. Even the seemingly most obtuse and difficult (stylisticly) composers have, hidden in their catalogue, a work of a passive or contemplative nature. For that matter musical works that approach a truly ambient sensability have existed in cultures worldwide for thousands of years, but the concert bootlegs are hard to find and crowd noise is crowd noise. A whole list of styles that fall within the "avante garde" have contributed pioneering techniques and devices that have slowly made new textures and sounds part of the modern global village. The impact of loop technology one hundred years hence on this planets music could be astounding. Will the really striking and popular musical styles that use this technology be seen as owing a debt of gratitude to the ambient explorers of old?....I doubt it, pop eats itself ....However that doesn't diminish the value of the ambient contingent. Good ambient music is as totally interactive with both a listening space and the events that occur in that space as it can be while anticipating the thresholds of audience perception. The question of what constitutes too much or not enough musical activity to qualify as being "ambient" simply constrains the possible variations of venue for performance of a musical style that seeks to gauge it's technique to an entire performance space and time in a more sympathetic fashion than most traditional music. Which is not to say that a good group or performer can't "move" with the mood of the room from snoring to frantic and back, should the spirit move them all. I guess what I mean to say is that sometimes "heavy metal" tonalities are the correct texture to create an ambience appropriate for a particular space and time and as such the "ambient" label actually covers every possible style that could ever be mislabeled. As you can see this "ambience" thing is..well.. everything and nothing at all and what with it's place secure in the historical development of "loop" oriented music..why, you have nothing to fear from them old ambient hounds hangin around the loop porch. Whose to say that if we filled a stadium with loop- technology users from around the world that they wouldn't all split into seperate camps anyway, they could prove all too human in that respect. Being a 39 yr old white male self employed at poverty level wages with a wife and 2 kids, limits my fiscal clout ,but not my desire to see music fully embrace the possibilities of new technologies, new ears to hear it and interpret it's meaning..and think of what to call it. I'm shuttin up.... and pluggin in... Bryan Helm P.S. I wanted to recommend again to anyone interested in the issue of ambience, a book titled "The Tuning of The World" by R. Murray Schafer 1977 published by Alfred A. Knopf From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:41 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 18:52:23 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvYnN-0003pC-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:52:21 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:47:54 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com Message-ID: <970804214220_-1940853054@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: enticing subjects part 1 Resent-Message-ID: <"ebEsqD.A.vSD.Lao5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/108 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:52:21 -0700 X-UIDL: 26fc6309404aaae447a3ef7f74a69623 In a message dated 8/4/97 7:29:35 PM, you wrote: <> This sounds so cool! Reminds me of something Adolf Wolfi would do while creating away in the institution he was locked up in in Switzerland. There must be many stories out there like this. Jim Portland OR From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:42 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 18:53:16 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvYoD-0003tP-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:53:13 -0700 Message-ID: <33E6865D.6747@interactive.net> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 21:48:13 -0400 From: Jonathan Brainin Reply-To: see@onyx.interactive.net, my@onyx.interactive.net, signature@onyx.interactive.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Midi standards References: <199708042333.QAA00872@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D-qnyB.A.ZZD.Obo5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/109 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:53:13 -0700 X-UIDL: 10c39ee287d7ac5048d01198d1fb8b65 Matt McCabe wrote: > And this works fine *if* you have a *dedicated* foot controller for the > JamMan. If you already own a foot controller that was designed, primarily, > to change patches on another effects processor (case in point, the GSP-2101 > and Control One foot controller) you are out of luck if you desire to use > the controller to control *both* units simultaneously. Granted, you *can* > use the controller if you don't mind changing patches on the 2101 > everything you punch in and out of a loop -- but this isn't the best > arrangement. In fact, it sucks. Actually, there is a relatively simple solution. For about $275 new/$150 used, you can buy a JL Cooper MSB+ Rev2. This pup can store 75 separate midi presets. It can filter midi messages, merge 'em, bump 'em (and grind em?) One preset could send program change from foot controller to GSP2101 only, while another sends programs change only to the Jamman. Simple! Now the _real_ challenge comes when trying to control 2 Jammans with one foot controller. BTW, the MSB+ is a 1U box that has 8 midi ins and 8 midi outs for extensive control of your midi routing. I've outgrown mine. I now use JL Cooper's Synapse, a 2U box with 16 midi ins and 20 midi outs. Anybody want to buy a used MSB+ for $150? (Why should I hoard mine?) Keep looping, Jonathan Brainin jbrainin@interactive.net PS., I'd much prefer to control my Jammans with CC or than with Program Change messages. Much easier to avoid conflict between different devices. From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:42 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 19:03:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvYxz-0004ZS-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:03:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970804190043.0096aaf0@pure.pureatria.com> X-Sender: sechevar@pure.pureatria.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 19:00:43 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Sean Echevarria Subject: Re: Midi standards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BWslvC.A.NDE.2ko5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/110 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:03:19 -0700 X-UIDL: f4ecc21bf1dc9907ba8b7eff7342fd72 At 09:48 PM 8/4/97 -0400, see my signature wrote: >Actually, there is a relatively simple solution. For about $275 >new/$150 >used, you can buy a JL Cooper MSB+ Rev2. This pup can store 75 separate >midi presets. It can filter midi messages, merge 'em, bump 'em (and >grind >em?) One preset could send program change from foot controller to >GSP2101 >only, while another sends programs change only to the Jamman. Simple! 1 - so you need another footpedal to change the MSB+ presets which will redirect your primary midi controller pedal appropriately to the GSP or jamman? 2 - forgetting about the above point, for the money you may as well buy a dedicated program change footpedal for the jamguy and keep it on its own MIDI chain From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:43 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 19:28:45 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvZMa-00065S-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:28:44 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:22:42 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) In-Reply-To: <9820.199708042215@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DPDwQC.A.YdF.48o5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/111 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:28:44 -0700 X-UIDL: 1f112a2dbdb942ed1da94cd658a7d4c8 It keeps on comin'! On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk wrote: > >But again, the "sensibilities" that are at work with a guitarist are an > >intangible, organic, built-in thing, and they're there from the crack of > >the cosmic DNA. > > Woah, I think there may be a touch of overemphasis on that point. > I _do_ understand where you're coming from, in that I find > synths etc sort of "isolating" instruments where I don't have enough > control over the sound, like I do with guitar. > But that has nothing to do > with the quality of music produced. I agree -- I'm not saying that guitar-based music is fundamentally better than computer-based music. Here's (yet another!) different perspective on it: If you want to tweak a sample, you have to put it through a series of external apparati and processes which are part of a seperate and ditinct entity from who and what you are. If you've playing a guitar, then this process happens automatically -- it's "hard wired" into your system. (Too bad it's harder to get a good upgrade!) > Andre, you mentioned in another post that you would be playing in coming > gigs with a guitar synth. If this is anything post '88 or so, you are > fundamentally _playing_with_samples_. It's a Roland GR-50 which I believe came out around 1988, using LA synthesis which was supposed to take the best aspects of digital and sample-playback synthesis, and by most accounts (in that particular unit at least) wound up getting all the worst aspects instead... > OK the samples are short sections of > sampled intrument waves, but samples nonetheless. Now we get to a second > question - how long does a sample need to be before it ceases to be the > DJ's own creation? :) The way I see it is this: If you've got individual samples of drum sounds, waveforms in a sample-playback synth, etc, there's no inherent musical phrase there, unless you're triggering a factory loop. It's not as if there's a segment of somebody else's performance loaded into the thing, which will fly forth at the push of a button. It's still up to me (or whoever) to actually create the music. And in the mea culpa department, there *are* some factory-loaded loops in the GR-50 memory, which I'll probably be using in my solo gigs. How do I justify this in light of the last 5,000 posts I've made? A combination of reasons, mostly having to do with sheer terror at an impending solo residency without my main looping axe. But in my own defense, I'd also have to say that these loops aren't available in the factory presets; they have to be user-tweaked, and I've spent some time doing some serious tampering with them to get them to the point where they are right now. Which is exactly what all the pro-DJ arguments have been advocating all along, I know. Is this an atom bomb-sized hole in my whole argument? Could be. All I know is that my conscience gets a bit tweeked when I trigger one of those loops. Guess I'll have to wait and see what happens at the gigs... --Andre From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:44 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 19:35:52 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvZTT-0006hR-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:35:51 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:35:44 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Fela Resent-Message-ID: <"1wg3rD.A.ICG.IDp5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/112 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:35:51 -0700 X-UIDL: e77800398ec0d3c0359bb640062d72fe I just learned that Fela Anikulapo Kuti, Nigerian musician, bandleader and activist died friday in his sleep. This is pretty devastating for me, as Fela occupies a place in my musical universe equivalent to Miles Davis, Sun Ra or Coltrane. I had the privilige of seeing him several times, a traditional African ensemble I played with opened for a few dates on his 1990 west coast tour. I never actually met him, his entourage pretty well discouraged any shmoozing, though the members of his band that I met were exceptionally nice. Fela's music, while played on conventional instruments, is certainly loop-based: densely-layered, tight interlocking modal grooves played by a killer band. Listening to "Original Sufferhead" this morning, I was struck by how similar the groove was to a Chemical Brothers groove. Fela's recorded pieces are great examples of how to get maximum impact out of minimal materials, often building 10-20 minutes of music out of a 2 chord vamp, a few polyrhythms and a *really* shredding horn section. Robert Wyatt was once quoted as something like, "Fela is my favorite arranger, he only has one arrangement, but it always works." And of course, there was his politics, which got him imprisoned, got members of his family killed, and from which he never retreated. Fela always lived what he sang, unlike too many other so-called political artists. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:47 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 21:05:01 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvark-0003QL-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:05:00 -0700 Message-ID: <33E6A4AE.8C5@interactive.net> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 23:58:22 -0400 From: Jonathan Brainin Reply-To: see@easyway.net, my@easyway.net, signature@easyway.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Midi standards References: <3.0.1.32.19970804190043.0096aaf0@pure.pureatria.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yBY_3B.A.m1C.8Vq5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/114 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:05:00 -0700 X-UIDL: f3bbcefcc56089f02611b08b6f845b4b Sean Echevarria wrote: > > At 09:48 PM 8/4/97 -0400, see my signature wrote: > >Actually, there is a relatively simple solution. For about $275 > >new/$150 > >used, you can buy a JL Cooper MSB+ Rev2. This pup can store 75 separate > >midi presets. It can filter midi messages, merge 'em, bump 'em (and > >grind > >em?) One preset could send program change from foot controller to > >GSP2101 > >only, while another sends programs change only to the Jamman. Simple! > > 1 - so you need another footpedal to change the MSB+ presets which will > redirect your primary midi controller pedal appropriately to the GSP or > jamman? I dunno. I personally find no problem using my index finger on the switches on the faceplate. (Although I could use one of the 3 Fatar footswitches I've got laying around for scrolling presets also.) > 2 - forgetting about the above point, for the money you may as well buy a > dedicated program change footpedal for the jamguy and keep it on its own > MIDI chain Not practical at all for my rig. I use a Roland GP-100 controlled by a Roland FC-200 foot controller. The same foot controller controls both of my Jammans as well as my Eventide GTR4000 _and_ my pair of Soundsculpture Studio Swichblades. The JL Cooper boxes make this possible. I've got 12 different midi devices (13 if I include my computer.) A MSB+ or a Synapse is an absolute requirement for keeping them all functioning as I wish. (I've thought about multiple foot controllers but floor space is finite.) However, if you've got a simple midi rig, a PC only pedalboard works great with the Jamman. What do you do though when you have more than one Jamman? (Aside from giving one to someone who does not yet possess one.) Jonathan From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:48 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 21:06:04 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvasj-0003Vq-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:06:01 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970805041142.00977abc@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 21:11:42 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Midi standards Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Rl1cg.A.eDD.RYq5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/115 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:06:01 -0700 X-UIDL: 3dbbb6cbf1d2c5f488c2222f5a56cc22 At 07:00 PM 8/4/97 -0700, Sean Echevarria wrote: >At 09:48 PM 8/4/97 -0400, see my signature wrote: >>Actually, there is a relatively simple solution. For about $275 >>new/$150 >>used, you can buy a JL Cooper MSB+ Rev2. This pup can store 75 separate >>midi presets. It can filter midi messages, merge 'em, bump 'em (and >>grind >>em?) One preset could send program change from foot controller to >>GSP2101 >>only, while another sends programs change only to the Jamman. Simple! >2 - forgetting about the above point, for the money you may as well buy a >dedicated program change footpedal for the jamguy and keep it on its own >MIDI chain Actually, for that much you could buy a used footpedal that sends just about any midi command and could probably handle both units. I got my digitech pmc-10 for $100. It can store 500 presets! It even has a midi in, which in addition to letting you back up and restore, can also do midi filtering and merging if you need it. Heck, it even sends sysex! Back in the old days, people actually thought it might be useful for a footpedal to handle more than a micro-subset of the midi spec. But then, they also thought guitar players might be smarter than a lump of clay. Good thing those ideas got put down! Jeez, you can't make a buck that way! :-) kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:50 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 22:43:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvcPS-0000Uj-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:43:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708050538.BAA02598@shell.monmouth.com> X-Sender: andre@monmouth.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: andre Subject: Fela : RIP Resent-Message-ID: <"hV-ApD.A.wR.4zr5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/116 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:43:54 -0700 X-UIDL: 7bfd4968e3b3561b53556a37632b912c At 07:35 PM 8/4/97 -0800, you wrote: >I just learned that Fela Anikulapo Kuti, Nigerian musician, bandleader and >activist died friday in his sleep. oh my god!! that's quite a shock ?? how old was he ?? early/mid 50s ?? Strange/funny - i had just just thought a lot about Fela, having NOT thought of him in ages - but reading up on the new Eno at some website - several quotes from mr Eno - lauded Fela - and he said how he had TONS of his albums. - This caused me to think how lame i was for only having 1 or 2 ??@!!!!! But, having heard quite a few of 'em... then i actually wondered where he was, what doing, etc. Very strange. And sad. anyone unfamiliar with this man - check it out... another GENIUS , yes, the comparisons to Miles, Sun Ra, etc are right on.... Talking heads from Remain in light to the next 3-4 albums would not exist without him and his hybrid.... there's a great album he did in like 1970 with ginger baker also... whew. another one gone. our counter culture is dying. we must preserve it. andre' > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++100% positive !! "Nothing will benefit health and increase the chances of survival on earth as the evolution to a vegetarian diet" - Albert Einstein "Let food be thy medicine, and medicine be thy food" "Physician, do no harm" - Hippocrates, who doctors somehow take an oath on.... check out my natural food store website>> http://www.monmouth.com/~secondnature From ???@??? Mon Aug 04 23:44:53 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 4 23:12:08 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvcql-0001fc-00; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:12:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199708050609.XAA23308@usr10.primenet.com> From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: One, Two... ? Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:09:06 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jJpN8.A.tXB.EOs5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/117 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:12:07 -0700 X-UIDL: c495d7233b4a6a3c69a36760d590f96b > also... whew. another one gone. our counter culture is dying. we must > preserve it. On this I must then invoke William Burroughs, dead this past Saturday at 83. Ce la. And if you think we don't owe HIM something, well... [shrug, shaking head] Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:31 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 02:16:43 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvfjL-0000fa-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:16:39 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <33E665A1.3B37@cyberportal.net> References: <199708041738.KAA24294@apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:27:42 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Echoplex upgrade Resent-Message-ID: <"llYt9C.A.2Y.P7u5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/118 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:16:39 -0700 X-UIDL: 06aff695783388fca122e0dffb8c07d2 >so does this mean that the upgrad is not user installable? I think they are selling a user installable version, but I'm not totally sure. Sometimes there are liability problems with that sort of thing. It's just a couple of eproms to pop into sockets, so it's pretty simple. Maybe you can get it through a dealer. You might want to ask Dean about that. I think if you send it in they make sure all the hardware is working right and any engineering changes that have been made get done on your unit. So maybe it's a pretty good deal; you get more than just the software that way. >also , is >there any way to fix one part of an led that isn`t working?...in the # on >the far right where the time counts while making a loop , part of that # >doesn`t light....anyone? You probably should just replace it. If you are handy with a soldering iron and can find a seven segment LED that matches the one in there, it's not too difficult. Otherwise, maybe its a thing to have Oberheim do if you send it in for the upgrade. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:30 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 02:16:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvfj1-0000dm-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:16:19 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9820.199708042215@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:48:02 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (ad infinitum) Resent-Message-ID: <"IcCopD.A.UZ.R7u5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/119 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:16:19 -0700 X-UIDL: fefca83b21ff5d510e8246108fff244a I'm not going to bother replying to all the megabytes this thread has generated. In some sense I'd like to, and I'm sure I'd enjoy flaming Andre into a whimpering cinder, but I don't even have time to read it all let alone reply! So I guess it's a debate I lose by attrition...:-) It all begs one question, really. And I guess this is the main reason I'm not motivated to get into such a discussion. Simply, what is the purpose? When you try to debate the validity of one means of creative expression versus another, what are you really trying to do? It seems to me that there is another level to the discussion, a larger motivation. What would be the goal of winning such a debate? If you successfully prove to the world that one means of expression is inferior, what would your next step be? And why is it that the PurestFormOfCreativity is always, by some coincidence, remarkably similar to that of it's proponent in the debate? Have you ever seen such a discussion where someone vigorously argued that their own artistic methods were clearly inferior to all the rest? I think the most difficult step in such a process is the one where you step out of the debate and out of yourself, look back in, and question your own motivations. Tough questions to ask yourself, and you need to do it honestly. I know, I've had to do it plenty of times! You have to deal with your own ego, and your confidence in yourself, and the inherent fear of self-expression. And if you're like me, you'll be left still ashamed of comments made 12 years ago that only you remember. The question of which artistic method is most creative and experessive, which holds the greatest validity, has no answer. It's a pointless and self-serving argument. These debates have raged through artistic and academic communities for all eternity, and they never end in a positive growth. More like isolation, alienation, suspicion. The world is not black and white, its full of a whole spectrum of color. And: a full range of sounds! There is no right way to create. There is no wrong way. No better way, no worse way. Just other ways. Different colors and sounds. When we come across someone using a different method than our own, let's not take the path of boosting ourselves by putting them down. See it as an opportunity to learn. How does their method help them to express themselves? What are their artistic goals? How do they get there? What can we learn from that? Let's use the opportunity we have here to gain from each other. ....one sermon and a couple of rants. My quota is filled for the week..... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:36 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 07:35:51 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvkiD-00030d-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199708051432.HAA08179@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Midi standards Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:33:56 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZJBuDD.A.FcC.Xkz5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/120 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:35:49 -0700 X-UIDL: d2d2096f0f9941995b19b8c5d1d88fc2 > From: Sean Echevarria > At 09:48 PM 8/4/97 -0400, see my signature wrote: > >Actually, there is a relatively simple solution. For about $275 > >new/$150 > >used, you can buy a JL Cooper MSB+ Rev2. This pup can store 75 separate > >midi presets. It can filter midi messages, merge 'em, bump 'em (and > >grind em?) One preset could send program change from foot controller to > >GSP2101only, while another sends programs change only to the Jamman. Simple! > 2 - forgetting about the above point, for the money you may as well buy a > dedicated program change footpedal for the jamguy and keep it on its own > MIDI chain My feelings exactly!!! Wouldn't this scenario make more sense if Lexicon made/sold foot controllers!!! ;-) Matt From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:38 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 07:37:21 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvkjf-00038G-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:37:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199708051436.HAA08229@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Midi standards Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:38:01 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LEIpvB.A.jtC.Hoz5z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/121 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:37:19 -0700 X-UIDL: a46eba1060166822a7974ab760b76895 > From: Jonathan Brainin > Actually, there is a relatively simple solution. For about $275 > new/$150 > used, you can buy a JL Cooper MSB+ Rev2. This pup can store 75 separate > midi presets. It can filter midi messages, merge 'em, bump 'em (and > grind > em?) One preset could send program change from foot controller to > GSP2101 > only, while another sends programs change only to the Jamman. Simple! How does this work? Are you using the Control One? I'm assuming that in order for this to work, you have to plug the foot controller into the MSB+ first. How do you power the Control One then? It gets it's power from the 2101. > PS., I'd much prefer to control my Jammans with CC or than with Program > Change messages. Much easier to avoid conflict between different > devices. Ditto!! Matt From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:45 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 08:47:39 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvlpi-0007Jl-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:47:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199708051543.LAA00665@onyx.interactive.net> From: "Jonathan Brainin" To: Subject: Re: Midi standards Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:46:08 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"snk_SC.A.-kG.6o05z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/123 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:47:38 -0700 X-UIDL: 964bfd8e261de340be52e783bbdbafff > From: Matt McCabe > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > Subject: Re: Midi standards > Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 10:38 AM > > How does this work? Are you using the Control One? I'm assuming that in > order for this to work, you have to plug the foot controller into the MSB+ > first. How do you power the Control One then? It gets it's power from the > 2101. AAAGGH! Yet *another* non-standard midi implementation! Almost makes me appreciate the wallwart (or battteries) that my FC200 (Roland) uses. Back to the drawing board. Have you considered one of those PC only foot controllers? > > PS., I'd much prefer to control my Jammans with CC than with Program > > Change messages. Much easier to avoid conflict between different > > devices. Oh yeah, how did the meeting with Mr. President at Lexicon go last week, Bob? Any inkling as to when the eagerly awaited Jamman upgrade (the EAJU for future reference?) makes it's way to the greedy hands of the public? I'll take two... Jonathan Brainin jbrainin@interactive.net my karma ran over my dogma From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:37:10 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 17:32:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvu1Q-0005a5-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:32:16 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:49:11 +0200 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) Subject: PMC-10 Resent-Message-ID: <"NcHlMB.A.PtE.sS85z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/132 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:32:16 -0700 X-UIDL: 74b63a775016ceedfc2ed3664c581978 On 8/4/97 Kim Flint wrote: >Actually, for that much you could buy a used footpedal that sends just about >any midi command and could probably handle both units. I got my digitech >pmc-10 for $100. It can store 500 presets! It even has a midi in, which in >addition to letting you back up and restore, can also do midi filtering and >merging if you need it.... I picke done of these upa few months back on Kim's request and I can vouch for the versatility of this unit. For $100 it can't be beat.....filters out those nasty program changes my GR-1 sends each time a switch a patch........ Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:44 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 08:05:18 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvlAi-0004mZ-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:05:16 -0700 Message-ID: <33E76EAF.246A@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 11:19:27 -0700 From: Rick Canton Organization: Kaynar , Ent. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: jamguy fs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h2jrW.A.zOE.qB05z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/122 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:05:16 -0700 X-UIDL: f4e8199050ebb821d0b4cc668b7207aa i saw an ad in the local paper for a 32 sec jamman "$350. c.o.d. shipped anywhere" from a guy nammed Frank in mass. fconsig@ma.ultranet.com # 617-861-9710 goodluck, rick From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:48 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 11:31:02 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvoNo-0003E0-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:31:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199708051828.LAA16698@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Midi standards Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:29:27 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aNT0p.A.XsC.YB35z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/124 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:31:00 -0700 X-UIDL: 97942103907d1a77422a606a9225c9d1 > From: Kim Flint > Actually, for that much you could buy a used footpedal that sends just about > any midi command and could probably handle both units. I got my digitech > pmc-10 for $100. It can store 500 presets! It even has a midi in, which in You sure love that PMC-10 don't you Kim??? :-) Know where I can pick one up? Anyone have any experience using Rocktron's All Access foot controller? It basically looks like a Bradshaw pedal board with those beefy switches (like a RAT distortion pedal). From the brochure I read a few months back if sounded pretty sophisticated. Matt From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:50 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 12:17:57 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvp7A-0006Q3-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:17:52 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:12:34 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Fela : RIP Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"FkXAED.A.pSF.Bq35z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/125 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:17:52 -0700 X-UIDL: b22d8c496a4c286833d9115d60d79b75 At 1:38 AM 8/5/97, andre wrote: >At 07:35 PM 8/4/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I just learned that Fela Anikulapo Kuti, Nigerian musician, bandleader and >>activist died friday in his sleep. > >oh my god!! that's quite a shock ?? how old was he ?? early/mid 50s ?? >Strange/funny - i had just just thought a lot about Fela, having NOT thought >of him in ages - but reading up on the new Eno at some website - several >quotes from mr Eno - lauded Fela - and he said how he had TONS of his >albums. - This caused me to think how lame i was for only having 1 or 2 >??@!!!!! But, having heard quite a few of 'em... then i actually wondered >where he was, what doing, etc. Very strange. And sad. > He was only 58, rather surprising given how long a career he had. I'll include an obit from the London Times at the end of this message for anyone interested. I got into Fela after reading about Eno raving about him in the late 70's. >anyone unfamiliar with this man - check it out... another GENIUS , yes, the >comparisons to Miles, Sun Ra, etc are right on.... Talking heads from Remain >in light to the next 3-4 albums would not exist without him and his >hybrid.... there's a great album he did in like 1970 with ginger baker >also... whew. another one gone. our counter culture is dying. we must >preserve it. Yeah, it does kind of make you wonder where all the true visionaries are in the younger generations. Are we the people meant to carry on the legacies of these musicians? Whew, that's a huge responsibility. I have been thinking a lot about this stuff lately, excuse me if this gets a bit overly personal and morbid. The same day I found out about Fela and Burroughs, a friend of mine, a woman I had gone to music school with, was killed in a car accident. She had just found a job as a music educator, after searching for several years, and was looking forward to finally having a career in what she wanted to do. And all gone in an instant. I don't mean to use this list as a therapy forum or whatever, but these things have been on my mind lately, how incredibly fragile our existence is, and what we have to contribute while we're here and what remains when we're gone. In a recent Keyboard mag, Freff wrote, in his usual back page philosophy rant, about a quote he keeps by his computer, "Procratination is the denial of death." This phrase has been with me a lot in the last few days, how easy it is to put off the creativity, producing the music or whatever while just surviving, making the house payments, doing the job, etc. I guess the important thing is to just keep making the music, by any means necessary, the arguments of whether what we do is ambient or what looper is best, or the validity of live looping versus sampling become trivial in the face of our own mortality. Anyway, end of depressing lecture, here's the Fela obit from the London Times. Typically, I didn't see any of this kind of coverage in the american press. Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:57:29 -0700 (PDT) From: MichaelP X-Sender: papadop@kira Subject: London Times obit. on Fela Kuti MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ykboo@peak.org Precedence: bulk Status: If you've heard this musician's work, you'll know something about the man. If you havn't heard it go out and find some. MichaelP London Times August 5 1997 FELA KUTI Fela Anikulapo-Kuti, Nigerian singer and political activist, died of an Aids-related illness on August 2 aged 58. He was born on October 15, 1938. A FLAMBOYANT singer of international acclaim and an outspoken political opponent of successive military governments in Nigeria, Fela Anikulapo-Kuti mixed music with social criticism, and revelled in being a thorn in the side of the authorities. Known to his fans simply as Fela, he also won a reputation for smoking marijuana, sleeping with hundreds of women and dressing only in his underpants. As one of the earliest and most vocal post-colonial activists, he influenced many through his music, and in Lagos he commanded a militant following among the poor and dispossessed. He was one of five children. Their father was an Anglican cleric and ran a rural grammar school in Abeokuta, a small town in Ogun province, western Nigeria. Their mother also worked at a grammar school, and she was the first to sow the seeds of Fela's political activism. This was nurtured when he came to Britain in 1960 to study music at Trinity College in London, where besides singing he played the piano and trumpet and met his first wife, a Nigerian. His years in London opened his eyes to the social neglect in his native country, and when he returned to Nigeria in 1963 he formed the Koola Lobitos band. His early music was high-life jazz, and his songs were critical of the rich and the growing neglect of roads and other amenities. His political focus was sharpened in 1968 by a tour of the United States with his band. He met members of the Black Panther movement and was exposed to the writings of Malcolm X. Subsequently his music evolved into Afrobeat, a mix of jazz and more traditional African music, and his pan-Africanist advocacy shone through his lyrics. By the early 1970s he was on his way to stardom with records that pulled no punches in criticising military rule in Nigeria, highlighting the brutality and corruption of the country's leaders and singling out individuals for particular criticism. Inevitably this led to confrontation with the authorities, and in 1977 he had a spectacular clash when soldiers stormed his house in Lagos. His mother was thrown from a second-storey window and died six months later from her injuries. Fela received a severe beating that resulted in a broken leg and arm, leaving him unable to play the saxophone. His confrontation with the authorities reinforced his growing legend as a champion of the people and a crusader for human rights. In 1979 he formed a political party, the Movement for the People, and he was urged to run for president, but the party was disqualified from elections. It was around this time that he persuaded his brother Beko Ransome Kuti, a doctor, to enter the political fray. He assisted Beko, who became president of the Nigerian Medical Association, to organise doctors' strikes, and later his brother formed the human rights organisation Campaign for Democracy. In 1981 Fela received another beating from troops using rifle butts, and afterwards he told family members that he felt as if his body had left him. Subjected to continued harassment, he was detained several times and imprisoned. In 1984 he was jailed for 18 months on trumped-up charges before being freed after the judge admitted having been under pressure from the State. His political fire dwindled in the final two years of his life, even though his brother Beko had been imprisoned by the military strongman Sani Abacha and was being kept in solitary confinement. Fela was said to be disillusioned because the changes he had fought so hard for had not materialised. He stayed mostly at his home in Ikeja, a working-class district in Lagos, and gave infrequent performances at his club, the Shrine. He would smoke marijuana on stage and the weed could be purchased, ready rolled, on the premises. Earlier this year he was held by the drugs squad, which said it hoped to reform his character and wean him off marijuana. There was uproar when he appeared on national television in handcuffs, and officials released him, admitting defeat. During his heyday Fela changed part of his family name from Ransome to Anikulapo, which means "one who keeps death in his pouch". He is survived by 27 wives and three children. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:49 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 12:17:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvp75-0006PP-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:17:47 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:12:44 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: tyrannical ambient front Cc: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"peryQC.A.YcF.lr35z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/127 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:17:48 -0700 X-UIDL: 24621efa5a8c697c1941041e63347686 At 5:33 PM 8/4/97, Sarajane wrote: >Caution: The following remarks are by a card carrying member >of the "Tyrannical Ambient Front". Those easily offended by the >lack of respect given to tradional musical logic, should avert their >gaze now................or read on, and gather new scorn. > Aha, the ambient mafia reveals itself! No one expects the ambient inquisition! Seriously, thanks for the input. I totally respect your approach, I know from experience that it's incredibly difficult to create music that works gracefully as true ambience. My problem is that the word ambient has become a generic catch phrase, and is on the verge of losing whatever real meaning it had as a reference to music. Too many times I have tried to explain what it is I'm after in my music, only to have the listener nod sagely and say, "Ah, you do ambient music." Oh well, at least they're not calling it jazz... I've recommended this book before on this list, but David Toop's "Ocean of Sound" is a terrific read. One of his major hypotheses is that this century has seen 2 simultaneous forces that have potentially created a whole new aesthetic of sound. One is the rise of music whose "meaning" is too complex, too personal, or too ambiguous to be clearly read from just the sound (I know this is very vague statement, hey, it takes Toop, a much better writer than I the whole book to put this forth, what do you expect me to do in a sentence?). This includes most contemporary classical music, and much of the outer fringes of the pop and jazz worlds. The other force is that the sound world we live in is increasingly complex, and includes more music, whether we are listening to it consciouly or in the background, than any previous era in human history. These forces have made us deal, both as listeners and performers, with music in an entirely new way. Anyway, it's a pretty thought-provoking book, I read it twice while I had it from the library and will buy a copy soon. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:51 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 12:17:54 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvp76-0006PR-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:17:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:12:50 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (ad infinitum) Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"a3Dmb.A.1TF.Nq35z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/126 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:17:48 -0700 X-UIDL: 8fe24f05970b06d608e9ed262d871c65 I think this debate is pretty interesting, but ultimately futile because we're treating music as an abstraction, and music is not an abstraction, it's perhaps the most sensual and direct art we have. I learned years ago to judge music on the sound I hear and not on the process that the musician uses to create it. I totally respect Andre (The Man!)'s approach, and I'd love to hear it applied to his music, but there is a danger in abstracting an individual method into a rule for producing music. For example, Fripp is an exemplary looping guitarist, his self-discipline is admirable, his technique with looping devices is deep, etc, BUT, his last few Soundscape CD's have bored me to tears. Why? Because there's no passion, no fire, no grit, no funk, all I hear is theory and rules. Now, I'm not putting Fripp down, his music has meant a lot to me over the years, and there are some things he plays that still kick my ass, but I think he's got a tendency to over-theorize, and needs the feedback of some more instinctive musicians to really make interesting music. Anyway, I didn't mean this to be an anti-Fripp rant, I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have to judge the music on it's own merits. To use Andre's "Black Dog" example, in theory every guitarist will bring his own history, his own passion, whatever to the lick. In practice, I've heard too many musicians who are too content to play something safely, to not take risks, to be generic. I'd rather just hear Jimmy Page in all his sloppiness than someone slavishly reproducing the recorded lick. As far as sampling the lick, again it all depends on the creativity of the person doing the sampling. DJ Spooky or Hank Shocklee would probably take it into an entirely new direction. A lesser artist probably won't. I won't keep myself from appreciating the person who takes the creative path because of his method. I personally use real-time looping, sampling, midi looping, whatever it takes to make music that interests me and will hopefully engage listeners. I'm kind of an obsessive recordist/archivist, I ran a small studio for a few years and I still do occaisional concert recordings, editing jobs, whatever. One of the things that people who hire me have to accept, and anymore it's mostly just friends that I do recording with, is that whatever they record with me will be going into the sample mill, and who knows where I might re-use something of theirs. Actually, most people totally respect this, and are intrigued at the possiblility of what I might eventually do with their sound, there have been a few that aren't into it. I have a shelf of DATs of all kinds of music, classical recitals, punk bands, sound checks from recording sessions, interesting licks dubbed off the multitrack master when the band wasn't looking, whatever, and sometimes when I'm looking for inspiration, I'll pull down a tape at random and see what I can find. Because the musicians on these tapes are friends, there's a resonance I get from working with the music that I wouldn't get from pulling samples off of records, and I hope that this resonance carries through in the work. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:52 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 13:24:58 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvqA4-0005St-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:24:56 -0700 Message-Id: <3008.199708052018@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:18:24 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"h807zD.A.1iE.7q45z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/128 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:24:56 -0700 X-UIDL: a79e2196a1f60df14145f18c3e501f00 The Man: >I agree -- I'm not saying that guitar-based music is fundamentally better >than computer-based music. Here's (yet another!) different perspective >on it: If you want to tweak a sample, you have to put it through a series >of external apparati and processes which are part of a seperate and >ditinct entity from who and what you are. Like making patches using a signal processor? (Which I can understand, in a way - I'm not keen on them myself) >If you've playing a guitar, >then this process happens automatically -- it's "hard wired" into your >system. (Too bad it's harder to get a good upgrade!) I just upload the CD-ROM on the cover of Guitar Player. Just out of interest, do you get the month's Notes On Call CD on the cover of GP in the US now? We do here... >The way I see it is this: If you've got individual samples of drum >sounds, waveforms in a sample-playback synth, etc, there's no inherent >musical phrase there, unless you're triggering a factory loop. But then - the fatal move! >And in the mea culpa department, there *are* some factory-loaded loops in >the GR-50 memory, which I'll probably be using in my solo gigs. How do I >justify this in light of the last 5,000 posts I've made? I'd also >have to say that these loops aren't available in the factory presets; they >have to be user-tweaked, and I've spent some time doing some serious >tampering with them to get them to the point where they are right now. Check,,,and mate. :) Deep Blue would be proud.... >Which is exactly what all the pro-DJ arguments have been advocating all >along, I know. Is this an atom bomb-sized hole in my whole argument? >Could be. 'Reckon. Hmmm.... that's that thread over. Now, what next? Maybe Kim can tell us about foot controllers.... Hey Kim! When's the Echoplex Quad update (v3) coming out...? :) Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:53 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 13:54:52 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvqcy-0000lb-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:54:48 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970805205548.009e2800@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 13:55:48 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Midi standards Resent-Message-ID: <"7bYOAB.A.cG.HG55z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/129 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:54:48 -0700 X-UIDL: 5a50a82a9d911f394c40ab7f2e2d95ac At 11:29 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote: >> From: Kim Flint > >> Actually, for that much you could buy a used footpedal that sends just >about >> any midi command and could probably handle both units. I got my digitech >> pmc-10 for $100. It can store 500 presets! It even has a midi in, which >in > >You sure love that PMC-10 don't you Kim??? :-) Know where I can pick one >up? I just found someone selling it online. I bought most of my guitar rack from that one guy, actually. And it's not that I find the pmc-10 particulary lovable, just that it keeps striking me that there's cheap, well-made stuff floating around out there that's a lot better than most of the things available new. Most of those talented engineers who worked in the music industry a few years ago are now making a lot more money designing add-in multimedia products for pc's. :-) Sort of like if you had wanted to buy a ford mustang in 1981, you would have been better off getting one made 10-15 years before that... >Anyone have any experience using Rocktron's All Access foot controller? It >basically looks like a Bradshaw pedal board with those beefy switches (like >a RAT distortion pedal). From the brochure I read a few months back if >sounded pretty sophisticated. I know several people who have tried every pedal ever created, and they now use the All Access. It's expensive, but apparently worth it. And the color is so cool! kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:53 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 14:09:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvqr7-0002JC-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:09:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199708052103.OAA12042@usr09.primenet.com> From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: tyrannical ambient front Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:01:18 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9ABdjD.A.tmB.pU55z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/130 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:09:25 -0700 X-UIDL: f1089409c77c9fb98a30ea4ddb93d55d > At 5:33 PM 8/4/97, Sarajane wrote: > >Caution: The following remarks are by a card carrying member > >of the "Tyrannical Ambient Front". Those easily offended by the > >lack of respect given to tradional musical logic, should avert their > >gaze now................or read on, and gather new scorn. And at 1:12 PM 8/5/97, Dave Trenkel emitted: > Aha, the ambient mafia reveals itself! No one expects the ambient inquisition! Well, actually, NO. It should be as thus (...Biggles!): "Noone can discern (or chooses to ignore) the ambient inquisition!" Sorry, I think the current weight of subject quotient requires comedic relief in droves...! But I think the true nature of 'ambiance as we think we know it' is actually a Subjective Thing when attemptedly applied to anyone else but yourself. Some folks like it, some don't, and some don't appreciate it enough to even know what it is. Or perhaps it's like David Byrne coined in the film "True Stories": "Do you like music? I know - most people SAY they do..." Which could be a zen item on its own. Yes? * Stephen Goodman It's the Loop Of The Week! And it's free! * EarthLight Productions http://www.earthlight.net/Studios From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:36:57 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 14:17:49 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvqzB-0003Bj-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:17:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:09:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) In-Reply-To: <9820.199708042215@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wvOhqD.A.oNC.ea55z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/131 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:17:45 -0700 X-UIDL: 7562d51f09e3c31862286330df9520ed On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD wrote: > The Man attracted The Controversy: > > >> But the whole idea of (re)contextualising comes from how the sample is used > >> in another piece of music. Sure 5 guitarists will play "Black Dog" slightly > >> differently, and 5 techno artists will use the sample from "Black Dog" in > >> different ways in wildly varying styles, but the guitarist is still just > >> playing "Black Dog". > >And the DJ is still "just" sampling it! Recontextualization isn't limited to sampling. Hell, I've been recontextualizing a Zeppelin tune myself lately... my solo acoustic version of "No Quarter" (DADGAD tuning). If I can find a good, reliable percussionist, I want to form a band doing nothing but acoustic covers of rock tunes. That's a whole band concept formed around recontextualization, without a hint of electronics. And recontextualization isn't just "musical"... it can work on entirely different levels. I like playing "I Touch Myself" by the Divinyls. Songs about masturbation take on a whole new meaning when sung by a man rather than a woman! (The next step... making it a medley with Joan Osborne's "Right Hand Man". Think about it). Recontextualization is the basis of virtually all postmodern art, in any media or genre. Traditional rock is itself a recontextualization of the blues. Recontextualization plays with the audience's expectations, takes advantage of their preconceived notions. This can be a crude abuse of familiarity (like Vanilla Ice using a well-known Queen riff), or an all-out assault on the source (Jimi Hendrix at Montery, playing Frank Sinatra's "Strangers in the Night", the #1 song in the country at the time, while setting fire to his guitar, with the rhythm section pounding out "Wild Thing"). So, getting back to a point... I don't think the guitarist vs DJ comparison is a useful one here. Recontextualization isn't a function of performance, but rather of intent. If the average guitarist can't play Black Dog exactly like Jimmy Page, it usually isn't for a lack of trying! Heck, NOBODY can repeat a riff perfectly. However, a guitarist is just as capable of recontextualizing Black Dog as a DJ... just play in an unexpected context. > >> So in a way, just as the guitarists sensibilities > >> affect how he plays the guitar riff, a DJ's sensibilities affect how he > >> uses the sample in a song or dropped into his set. > > >But again, the "sensibilities" that are at work with a guitarist are an > >intangible, organic, built-in thing, and they're there from the crack of > >the cosmic DNA. > > Woah, I think there may be a touch of overemphasis on that point. > Guitarists are no nearer the cosmic source than anyone else ('cept maybe > Jerry Garcia), we're just hittin' bits of wire an' wood in a way that > pleases us. I _do_ understand where you're coming from, in that I find > synths etc sort of "isolating" instruments where I don't have enough > control over the sound, like I do with guitar. But that has nothing to do > with the quality of music produced. Again, there are two things at work here... aesthetics, and technique. Don't mix them up. Playing a riff differently because of limited technique isn't the same as playing a riff differently for artistic intent. Now, there is a middle ground here... taking advantage of our own limitations to personalize someone else's music. And to be absolutely clear, I don't consider lack of technique a disadvantage. For that matter, I don't consider the limitations of an instrument to be a disadvantage. I currently play only unplugged acoustic guitar, IN ORDER to limit my instrument. Then I play around with extended technique in order to extract more or different sounds from the instrument. And yes, I consider myself an acoustic loopist. Most of my music these days is "loops" of ambient and percussive sounds generated by hand on an acoustic guitar. > >This is all very true. I think for me the bottom line is that if you're > >working with samples, even if you're tweaking and recontextualizing the > >thing to the nth degree, you're still working with blocks of other > >people's material, in a way that's far more overt and undiluted than if > >you're translating that material through your own performance. I disagree completely with this statement. To me, a creative sampler like DJ Spooky, who twists samples into unrecognizable shapes, is far LESS "overt and undiluted" than the typical guitarist, who is merely aping his heroes. Who is more creative and original... DJ Spooky, or the kid playing Nirvana tunes down at the guitar store? Simply put - recontextualization is primarily a function of aesthetics, not technique. Let us not confuse the technical limitations of the instrument and the player with lofty artistic goals. More importantly, let us not hold accident over intent when judging aesthetic value. Even accident can be used intentionally. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort From ???@??? Tue Aug 05 23:37:12 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 5 19:25:42 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wvvn8-0000MC-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:25:38 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:20:21 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com Message-ID: <970805221901_107660999@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: It's not morbid Resent-Message-ID: <"HMbWLD.A.2SH.m-95z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/133 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:25:38 -0700 X-UIDL: 805aa5a0bfcc736849fb84aad02832cc In a message dated 8/5/97 7:47:05 PM, you wrote, among other things.... <> Thanks for the post Dave. I thought it was quite good, tho sad. I often think( after creating a piece in the studio) how lucky I was to have walked in there and messed around. A piece of music emerged that had not been there the day before. Making visible the invisible. I wonder how many great ones we miss simply because we were'nt there. So many ways to waste time, and time goes by so fast. Jim Portland OR From ???@??? Sun Mar 01 23:02:57 1998 >From kflint Sun Mar 1 20:58:48 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0y9NJP-0000VA-00; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:58:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970805215709.007a2180@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:57:09 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: ADA MIDI foot controller for Jamman (question on midi pgm. changes) In-Reply-To: <339bd332.34fa124c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BWWAsD.A.FE.7uj-0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3697 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:58:47 -0800 X-UIDL: 3ac88a45fdb9a95ab2ceeb92046b4a36 I'm sorry you're having problems with that, to my recalection, the midi program change msg 1 should work as the button does and has for me when I've used it in this manner. I usually use the lexicon peddal that comes with the unit even though I have a foot controller. I will give this a try again if I have some time in the next few days just to make sure... Good luck... smiles, Corynne At 08:58 PM 3/1/98 EST, you wrote: >Just bought an ADA this weekend and tried it out. Thanks for all the input. > >Have a question for those that may know, the jamman manual shows program >change 1 to be tap for all modes. I can get the recording to go when I press >pgm. chg. 1 but hitting it the second time doesn't stop the recording for >playback. If I hit any of the others and then press 1 it will stop. > >Shouldn't the tap function work like the analog unit? TAP to record and Tap >to playback. > >P.S. The Fade functions are really cool, can't wait to experiment with the >others. > >Regards; >John Peters > > 3rd CD Project open for >submissions! > > > > From ???@??? Wed Aug 06 03:52:34 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 6 01:41:12 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0ww1eY-0004AB-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:41:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:35:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: guitars and samples In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: "GIS INFOBIOGEN, 7 rue Guy Moquet BP8, 94801 VILLEJUIF, France" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cr1sBD.A.BvD.hfD6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/134 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:41:10 -0700 X-UIDL: 71d3479e60e89c80c4dee3b73703ea55 Reacting a bit late but... " Woah, I think there may be a touch of overemphasis on that point. Guitarists are no nearer the cosmic source than anyone else" Yes When i hear that guitar player are still playing black dog when a DJ (or whoever) is still sampling, please gimme a break! At least 1) with the sample it will correctly played 2) guitar player community is not exactly known fot its inventivity (does it exist? lets say imagination, try to walk in a guitar shop a saturday afternoon!) I don't see MUCH difference between sampling and most guitar players besides I'l prefer a sample used with imagination than a bad -or worst, just usual- guitar part. I would rather talk about experiments versus narrowness of mind (again does the word only exists?) It is clear to everyone that -in music- the end justifies the means! The fact that we all choose different means is our richness that make us sometimes different from our neighbour. It is quite clear to me that mostly everyone is running after the same "end". Or not? Olivier Malhomme From ???@??? Wed Aug 06 03:52:36 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 6 02:08:30 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0ww24z-0004xM-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:08:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:49:15 -0400 (EDT) From: KRosser414@aol.com Message-ID: <970806044914_1794560777@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY/Methods & Madness Resent-Message-ID: <"YjjoFD.A.nXE.D1D6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/135 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:08:29 -0700 X-UIDL: 4853a022415c480930320a7a081f8fc2 The first part of this discussion between Andre & Kim (primarily) I'd like to comment on has to do with Kim's assertion that 'a sample and a musician reproducing something' are roughly the same for all intents and purposes, especially if the audience is not sophisticated enough to know the difference. Andre replied (rightly so IMHO) that it should not necessarily be the audience that moves the performer in this case, but rather the call of one's art or craft (more or less - obviously, I'm paraphrasing). However, I'd like to add that maybe the challenge here should be to expand your notion of 'audience'. Personally, I think it's an artistic cop-out of the highest order to present something you know is not the best you can do because you assume the audience just ain't sophisticated enough to know the difference, especially because it may not be true. I've done jazz gigs at dives where there were only a dozen people in the audience and one just happened to be Horace Silver or McCoy Tyner. They were certainly going to be aware of everything that was going on onstage. I did a gig somewhat recently where the sax player leading the band was unaware Herbie Hancock was sitting at the bar and sort of passed it off like it was 'just another gig' until I told him right after Herbie left, at which point he felt pretty embarrassed for not giving it his all. The fact of the matter is, I don't see what's to lose in assuming the best from an audience because unless you get a chance to interview and test everyone you don't really know what they're capable of getting or not. Let's assume every time you perform in public SOMEONE, even if one person, has pretty intimate knowledge of what you're trying to achieve. The performance then becomes an opportunity to rise to the challenge of creating the absolute best you can at the moment, to push yourself to be committed totally to presenting what it is you do with greater clarity because you are confident it's being received with clarity. OK, for the sake of argument let's say the reverse is true - absolutely no one is really informed enough to get the details of what you're doing. What is to gain by making this leap of logic? What do you have to lose by telling yourself otherwise and giving it your all just the same? You are the only one who loses - you've chosen to back down from the challenge because you've chosen to underestimate the intelligence of your audience. In many ways, I believe (naively perhaps) that ultimately we get the audiences we insist on. This is why it's important to sweat the details and give it your all instead of making dubious assumptions about what the audience can and can't perceive. Along those lines, the debate about whether a sample is as 'human' a musical idea as a phrase played in real time. I think it's a matter of intention. I find myself in a funny position here, having passionately defended the use of samples on Miles Davis' late 80's records on the Miles e-mailing list a while back, but I think I can see where a line can be drawn. Miles and Marcus Miller used those to spice up the stew, so to speak, to add some unusual sonic coloring here and there. So does MeShell Ndegeocello, who I adore. In both cases, the samples are not playing the part of ersatz musical substance, since the songs stand quite well without them. Same for Torn's "What Means Solid". In contrast, there was a song on alternative Top-radio about a year ago getting a lot of airplay (sorry, the artist escapes me) where the signature hook was a line sampled from something originally sung by BB King. Now, I consider it one of the primary jobs of pop songwriters to come up with good hooks, but when the one you're counting on is a sample appropriated from another source, it just sounds to me like someone's being really lazy. Sure, maybe you get a lot of airplay one day and maybe a good deal of money but ultimately you know you've taken the easy way out rather than insisting on rising up to the challenge of creating something yourself, and you are the one who will be most hurt creatively by that. Or take MC Hammer - in dance music, groove is everything and he lifted grooves hook, line and sinker from James and Prince, etc. Dare I suggest that there might be a correlation between the longevity of MC Hammer's career as an artist and the amount of creativity he applied to the samples he used? As in the first issue, no laws are broken, no rules violated, everyone is of course free to do whatever the hell they want. But, it's a matter of every artist's conscience to be honest with themselves as to if they are indeed imposing the toughest challenges on themselves or taking the easy way out. It's not important if anyone else knows. It's important that YOU know. As to the 'tyranny of ambient music' or the prospect of 'electronica' taking over, I have to admit to unmoved by the former and skeptical of the latter. I've never liked the idea of ambient music, be it knives and forks clanging along with Satie, music for Brian Eno to ignore while he sits in airports, New Age or Musak playing in the grocery store, what have you. To me it's all essentially trying to achieve the same thing - acknowledging that pure silence doesn't exist as we're surrounded by sounds all the time, it insists on being the context in which you hear everything else around you, which kind of strikes me as irritatingly passive-aggressive. What admittedly little I've heard of the 'electronica' movement strikes me as entirely intellectual instead of visceral. I have yet to hear an electronic dance track that moves me anything close to the way MeShell does, but I remain open-minded and will continue to try to check out some names I see cropping up. But, they certainly have a role in looping and I would welcome some more practitioners of that on the list, as Kim says, to keep things controversial and hopefully interesting. I add this last paragraph not to put down anyone else's tastes or choices, but just to maybe illustrate another range of perspective which is all of course my highly irrational and subjective opinion. Jeez, Burroughs and Fela leave us within a few days. I fear their kind is not being made much anymore... Goodnight, Ken R From ???@??? Wed Aug 06 10:39:08 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 6 05:20:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0ww54b-0003Fg-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: <33E853E3.526@vtx.ch> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 12:37:23 +0200 From: Claude Voit Reply-To: c.voit@vtx.ch X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: PMC-10 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"969p.A.45C.ptG6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/136 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:20:17 -0700 X-UIDL: 08772b1e72bdfe7066db1f59901b82a0 PMC 10 Fine Midi implementation but a litle fragile for the road Check the switches the ac in socket :I've had power cuts on too flexible stages The remote must be checked because its the only way to program it Questions : Is there somewere a midi software that can program it via sys ex Or a dot it yourself project that could replace the remote keys(those gummy things ( ??!! remember the MMT 8) Its still the more powerful unit I know Claude From ???@??? Wed Aug 06 10:39:09 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 6 05:26:23 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0ww5AT-0003g1-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:26:21 -0700 X-Sender: illoyd@mail.intrlink.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:23:06 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: illoyd@intrlink.com (Ian///Shakespace) Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"JOnUc.A._OD.hzG6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/137 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:26:21 -0700 X-UIDL: 0d094e70f9a05ec05a91778b0aad2955 No, to answer the unasked question, I'm not gonna let this die without at least trying to get my point across... >But again, the "sensibilities" that are at work with a guitarist are an >intangible, organic, built-in thing Okay let me try and clarify my point: A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's abilities as a guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you hone through practice. And by DJ, here and throughout my posts, I've been referring to a "disc jockey" with 2 (or more) turntables as a basis and whatever else he/she might choose to have along (sampler, drum machine, etc...). I really don't see a difference between a guitarist practicing his craft and a DJ practicing his. Are we together up to this point? So, a guitarist inflecting his personality on a riff, we all agree that thats because of who he is, then why is it such a stretch to say that the way a DJ drops a sample (not necesarily from a "sample" as from a digital sampler, perhaps a cut-in from the other turntable...) into a song, as thats part of his craft, part of what he does, part of the nature of being a DJ, is really that different; he's grafting, adding elements and removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming may add or take away notes from a riff. And this really boils down to what some will see as a philosophical difference and I don't. Its almost political.... >I think for me the bottom line is that if you're >working with samples, even if you're tweaking and recontextualizing the >thing to the nth degree, you're still working with blocks of other >people's material Okay well how does your opinion of me change when i tell you all the samples i use are samples of my own performances? >I personally would feel >very uncomfortable with inserting a sample of someone else's music into my >own Thats a personal choice and one i can totally agree with, i.e. I see where you're coming from, all I'm trying to say is that there's not a lesser form of music because it simply _may_ use parts of other songs. >I just can't bear the thought of >literally buying music off the shelf. and this is where we totally agree... I own one sample CD and its a thing a freind of mine put together of like 1000 drum machine samples... >I'm not saying that each format is identical to the other in terms of what >you can do. Okay, gotcha, and i totally agree... >BTW, if you've got a better suggestion as far as terminology goes, I'd >genuinely love to hear it. I subscribe to the theory that guitar players have chosen: metal and alternative and bluegrass just becomes hopuse and techno nad jungle and gabber and all the other different genres. I guess I'd feel alot better about the "electronica" tag if there was a similar overt categorisation for "all the people that play music with guitar bass vocals and drums"... >> The whole point of electronica is accepting what others do and seeing how >> people change whats previously been done. > >I don't know if everything I've seen in electronica supports your claim. my example i think got delted before i posted... um, the widely held concept that drum'n'bass evolved by gradually increasing the tempo of songs and slowly bringing out certain elements, over a period of several years. It was a progression... >I'm pretty sure we're taking them too seriously anyway! Yeh, you're probably right... Anyway, thanks for some stimulating conversation and some points to gnaw on when I should be working... :-) Ian///Shakespace www.intrlink.com/~illoyd From ???@??? Wed Aug 06 10:39:15 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 6 09:46:30 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0ww9EC-0002gS-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:46:28 -0700 Message-ID: <33E8A783.4A480B0F@wsdesigns.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:34:12 -0700 From: Warren Sirota Reply-To: wsirota@wsdesigns.com Organization: WS Designs X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Art, craft, communication, philosophy X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k8K8nB.A.-rB.RgK6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/138 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:46:28 -0700 X-UIDL: 228e30fd7253adf764caaed72575ede1 Hi all, I'd like to say something pithy about art, craft, communication, looping philosophy, etc.Unfortunately, all I can offer is fragments based upon my subjective evaluations of various points. - Art is what you do for yourself. Or, more precisely, it's what you do for "itself". You start a piece. It turns into something. It "wants" to be that thing, and you know when it's finished because anything you add to it detracts from it. If it's sufficiently far from people's conditioning, then they may be impressed, moved or stretched, but they will also probably experience confusion and possibly annoyance ("where's the conceptual pigeonhole for that? how do I know if it's good or bad?") Unfortunately, people's conditioning and cultural referents seem pretty narrow these days, and the reasons (and prescriptions) for that would be another rant in and of itself. - I perceive several varieties of craft: 1. Basic craft on an instrument or voice, which is usually necessary in order to create most music that even relates to the traditions we've been accultured to. 2. Craft in service of art, which is when you practice in order to pull something off that you really want to pull off. 3. Developmental craft - basic practice in order to increase your general skill level, in the hopes that new skills will become part of your vocabulary and enable you to do cooler things 4. Obsessive, competitive craft - the kind fostered by most guitar magazines. play faster, better, cleaner, like Steve Vai, like Eddie Van Halen, like Jim Hall, like Django Reinhardt, like Robert Fripp. Impress the other guitar players on your block. This is the evil extreme version of craft. Usually it just makes you feel inadequate. - Philosophy 1. I am a child of the universe. Whatever I do isn't great, it isn't bad, it isn't good (except as I judge it so)--it's just *my* voice, which in turn is just an expression of whatever creative goo was stuffed into this bodily shell by the Tao. Judgements - it's popularity or success by any external measure - are almost entirely the result of non-artistic factors: the mood and background of the reviewer, the relation of the piece to the popular psyche of the day, the promotional budget, etc. 2. There are always players better than me when measured on along any particular objective dimension, and players worse than me. I must constantly fight depression in the face of the better and arrogance in the face of the worse, for these are divisive and non-constructive reactions. 3. Or, as is said in The Artist's Way - "I'll be responsible for the quantity and let the Tao be responsible for the quality." (paraphrase) 4. Philosophy of looping - I don't understand why one is needed. However, I'd like to point out (this seems to be relevant, though I'm not sure why) that in an age of information overload, editing and evaluation is in scarcer supply than raw material. Looping seems to encourage a focussing of the senses and concentration of attention in a way that is in tune with this principle. Hoping not to piss anyone off for a change, Warren Sirota From ???@??? Wed Aug 06 22:21:28 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 6 14:13:28 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwDOU-0004IG-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:13:22 -0700 Message-Id: <9708062053.AA00169@beryllium.lexicon.com> Priority: urgent Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:47:00 -0400 From: "Hogan, Greg" Subject: RE: Midi standards To: Loopers-Delight X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Resent-Message-ID: <"Y5sr8C.A.WUD.teO6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/141 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:13:22 -0700 X-UIDL: 0f486319ae7b0e59a3610c9a742aeeb3 Matt said: "Wouldn't this scenario make more sense if Lexicon made/sold foot controllers!!! ;-)" Funny you should mention this. We announced at the summer NAMM show that we will be shipping a footcontroller this fall. It is meant to be a deicated footcontroller for our MPX1 but will allow MIDI control as well as provide a modulation source for anything else that can be controlled by them. It will list for a little more than a JAMMAN so it will likely not be priced right for most JAMMAN users. If anyone has any questions regarding this please contact me directly. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email: ghogan@lexicon.com From ???@??? Wed Aug 06 22:21:37 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 6 17:29:10 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwGRN-0003xi-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:28:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:20:48 -0400 From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) Message-Id: <199708070020.AA06158@world.std.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"wB6qzB.A.Z_C.9TR6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/142 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:28:33 -0700 X-UIDL: 5c60cd7dd875eadc808adf9bc4947a10 Somewhere in this thread we were asked "isn't what loopers do a lot like what electronica/DJs do"? This was intended in a technical sense--"should they be on this mailing list too?", or more like, "what name could we assign to this music we do". Now, it's understandable that we might ask "well, are the two kinds of music really similar? Don't they have different philosophical aims?" Now, me personally, I think there's a purely technical argument (no good/bad, no right/wrong, no art/craft/pandering) issue here. To me, when we're talking about sampling we're talking about an extended sample, say with audible internal rhythm, which can be "looped". This is an attempt at giving a "technical" definition at where in the continuum of sampling is relevent. So, when a DJ samples and "recontextualizes" something by playing it (perhaps looped), and layered with other sounds, he's doing one thing. Is this not like what "we" do when we create a loop by layering multiple passes into it? I don't think so. An artist with a "performance instrument" (say a guitar, or a saxaphone, or a keyboard set to play sampled strings) has a particular vocabulary available to him or her, which allows for the playing of one or more notes of a large range of pitches, which can be combined into larger pieces of "music" called phrases. The core vocabulary (the notes) is like the alphabet--the letters have no meaning without adjacent letters to form words. We can also talk about the larger vocabulary--what phrases and chords our chosen performance-instrument-artist might use. Clearly, artists work with the same core vocabulary (the same 12 notes--well, most of the time), but different large-scale vocabularies. On the other hand, a recontextualizing artist using samples of the type I described is unlikely to want to play those samples at different pitches, since the tempo would change. Even if he did, that sample would internally modulate, but would still create the same phrase. What I'm focussing here is an issue of granularity--a traditional performance instrument has more granularity, and hence a versatility of musical phrase selection. The large-scale sample performance has a more limited selection of phrases (namely, whatever samples are available), but those phrases are widely varying in all sorts of ways a single performance instrument can't achieve. (e.g., variability of timbre, but that doesn't really cover things like vocal samples...) Let me use a totally frivolous thought experiment. Suppose I start a mailing list, called phrase-loopers-delight. Me and many other people on the internet are creating this odd sort of music which we, for lack of a better term, call "phrase looping". The idea is to take snippets of music, say the riff from Black Dog, and play them into a looping device. You can layer on more and more phrase riffs. Perhaps there might be some talented artist who could create really listenable, interesting, and exciting music by creating performances that just loop phrases taken from Led Zeppelin guitar riffs. (I doubt it, but suppose.) Then, I don't think it really matters whether those riffs are put into the looper by playing them on a guitar, or sampling the phrases from the records. Sure, it will change the sound in various ways, but it seems to me the "compositional" challenge in such music is in figuring out what phrase to perform when, not the execution of the individual notes. My point being, in that case, yes, I don't think there's really any difference between the two, in the sense of categorizing what sort of music it is, or in the sense of whether they should all be on the same mailing list. Yes, both the guitar-players-of-Led Zeppelin-riffs and the samplers-of-Led Zeppelin-riffs have a lot in common. However, I don't think that's really very much like most looping music, and I really don't think that's anything like electronica and traditional DJ sampling (although, hey, I could be wrong). The exciting thing about "traditional" looping as opposed to this presumably fictional "phrase looping" is that once you've got this loop going, you're free to play "any" phrase (or single note) you can think of. While I'm sure a DJ could use a "big 3" looper to do useful electronica, and thus might be interested in our mailing list to share technological know-how, and hence one might be tempted to say "where are the electronica people, they could use these instruments", it also seems straightforward to see that the kind of music (and I don't mean rock vs. jazz vs. new age vs. electronica) you get one way comes out radically different from the other way, because of the musical phrase limitations of one. Of course, I could be totally wrong. I'm tempted to try to refer to one group as doing "layered looping" (DJs) and the other as doing "looped layering" (loopers), but I'm not sure that really makes any sense. Sean Barrett From ???@??? Thu Aug 07 09:57:03 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 7 00:46:07 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwNGo-00056P-00; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:46:06 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:40:49 -0400 (EDT) From: KRosser414@aol.com Message-ID: <970807034048_448235495@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: More on audiences, communication and craft Resent-Message-ID: <"mZEC8C.A.0lE.8wX6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/143 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:46:06 -0700 X-UIDL: 2a88ff113ee40d20c4a373d931bc4b05 >If it's sufficiently far from people's >conditioning, then they may be impressed, moved or stretched, but they >will also probably experience confusion and possibly annoyance ("where's >the conceptual pigeonhole for that? how do I know if it's good or bad?") The degree to which you should be concerned with this is the degree to which communicating to an audience is important to you. If it is, your challenge is to find a way to bridge that gap. Pat Metheny & Bill Frisell have found ways to sell some records presenting some very unusual and pigeonhole-challenging music, to cite an immediate example off the top of my head. Steve Reich might be another. I could go on talking about this quite a bit, but I fear I'm drifting way off topic... >Unfortunately, people's conditioning and cultural referents seem pretty >narrow these days, and the reasons (and prescriptions) for that would be >another rant in and of itself. The cure for this is not to dismiss them as forever unreachable! If, as artists, we don't take on the challenge of educating or widening the experience of the public, who will? >- I perceive several varieties of craft: >1. Basic craft on an instrument or voice, which is usually necessary in >order to create most music that even relates to the traditions we've >been accultured to. Do I interpret this to mean accumulating the vocabulary of established traditions? If so, I'd take exception to this being 'basic', as I think it's still possible to create earth-shattering works of art within established traditions if one is sincerely up to the challenge, and as such can be far deeper than just 'basic' if one so chooses. >2. Craft in service of art, which is when you practice in order to pull >something off that you really want to pull off. >3. Developmental craft - basic practice in order to increase your >general skill level, in the hopes that new skills will become part of >your vocabulary and enable you to do cooler things Not sure I'm getting the exact distiction between these two. Plus, I'm a bit suspicious of techniques or skills 'becoming' the vocabulary (if I'm reading you right), at least as a listener. I think technical practice is important to the degree that it removes a layer of self-consciousness that you have between yourself and your instrument when you're trying to play. This is at least an approach I try to impress upon my own students. If a technical exercise is not working toward that aim, I'd seriously question if it's necessary. >4. Obsessive, competitive craft - the kind fostered by most guitar >magazines. play faster, better, cleaner, like Steve Vai, like Eddie Van >Halen, like Jim Hall, like Django Reinhardt, like Robert Fripp. Impress >the other guitar players on your block. This is the evil extreme version >of craft. 'Evil extreme'? Woah, lets keep this in perspective - I'd possibly call genocidal maniacs or child molesters an 'evil extreme' and I'd love if it turned out the worst thing they did was sound just like Jim Hall:-) Seriously, this last point certainly works in tandem with the eastern/Toaist ideas you've mentioned elsewhere (and which I'm very fond of myself on many levels), but I think a pretty strong case can be made for the many incredible works of art produced by western culture under the guidance of obsession and competition. Maybe it means we don't exactly groove as one with the universe, but it's given us some great obsessive, competetive artists like Picasso, Dali, James Joyce, Dylan Thomas, Orson Welles, Charlie Parker,Schoenberg, Liszt, John Lennon, Jaco Pastorius, etc. Things would be just a little too quiet around here without guys like this popping up every now and then... ...for my taste, anyway, Ken R From ???@??? Tue Mar 03 01:55:18 1998 >From kflint Tue Mar 3 01:00:58 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0y9nZH-0006Oq-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:00:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970807015957.007a3190@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 01:59:57 -0700 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: question concerning the oedp... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"C3fCOC.A.DqF.hY8-0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3708 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:00:55 -0800 X-UIDL: cb1ff5b931ff1fcea0b8ebbf337ed471 I have a question concerning the oedp, in the description, it mentions "live backwards tape effects", I assume this to mean that as I'm playing, it will sample a relatively short "piece of my phrase and play it back to me as it is then sampling the next bit of data and so on... In escence, giving one a real-time reverse function, is this so? Thanks for any help anyone can give me on this... smiles, Corynne P.S. I'm aware that my date is incorrect, thank you to those who have told me. I hope to have this changed sometime soon, however, for now, there are some extenuating circumstances so unfortunately, it'll have to stay this way... My appologies... From ???@??? Thu Aug 07 09:57:07 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 7 04:21:05 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwQcr-0003Z7-00; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:21:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 06:27:16 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33E9B114.6F2@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: <"vx5nwD.A.bOD.h7a6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/144 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:21:05 -0700 X-UIDL: 8b9a4e2915bcdc9aeda7cf9495ae92ba Dave Stagner wrote, in part: > Recontextualization isn't limited to sampling. Hell, I've been > recontextualizing a Zeppelin tune myself lately... my solo acoustic > version of "No Quarter" (DADGAD tuning). If I can find a good, > reliable percussionist, I want to form a band doing nothing but > acoustic covers of rock tunes. That's a whole band concept formed > around recontextualization, without a hint of electronics. And Timbuk 3's acoustic "Born to be Wild" is devastatingly powerful; the words "heavy metal," in this context, might jolt some folks. > recontextualization isn't just "musical"... it can work on entirely > different levels. I hated Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man." Lyle Lovett's version totally transformed the song. Wynette's version came across, to me, as a spineless, none too bright woman urging other women to stand by their men, even if they're treated badly. Lovett's implored _a_ woman to stand by him (even if he treated her badly). Worlds of difference! > I like playing "I Touch Myself" by the Divinyls. > Songs about masturbation take on a whole new meaning when sung by a > man rather than a woman! (The next step... making it a medley with > Joan Osborne's "Right Hand Man". Think about it). I began my career as a singer doing exactly this. In the early 1980s I played pedal steel guitar in a country and western band which played exclusively in gay bars. I liked to sing, but was seldom given the opportunity; the other band members preferred my steel guitar playing to my singing, (not without justification). For my rare singing opportunities, I carefully chose songs originally sung by women, and sang them without changing pronoun genders. I was rewarded by strong, positive audience response and a demand for more. > Recontextualization plays with the audience's > expectations, takes advantage of their preconceived notions. Hrm... I'm not sure this is necessarily true. My own test for successful recontextualization is, is the result valid art even if the audience is unfamiliar with the original context? For a possibly familiar example (in the same vein), consider Melissa Etheridge's version of "Maggie Mae" (?sp). IMO, this is a great piece of music, even if you've never heard the Rod Stewart original. The gender reversal, and the astonishing similarity of their voices, are flavorful icing and sprinkles on what's already a very tasty cake. One of my "successes" in gay bars was the song "Someday Soon," recorded originally (I think) by Judy Collins in about 1967. When I was singing it, fifteen years later, many of the people in the audience had never heard it, though they might well have inferred it was originally sung by a female. "My parents do not like him, for he rides the rodeo," says the song; "My father says that he will leave me crying..." Sung by a female, these words portray rather normal parents. Sung by a male, they suggest parents who accept their son's sexual orientation, but are fearful of the consequences of his choice of partners-- a home life, in other words, very different from those experienced by most members of my audience in 1982. Straying even farther off-topic: Recently, through no fault of my own (blame Douglas Hofstadter for writing _Godel, Escher, Bach_; it's been said before on this list, but this is required reading for any loopist), I began experimenting with the creation of tiled (looped?) graphics and "canonic" MIDI music, using identical or very similar transformation processes in both disciplines. My ultimate goal is the creation of a Web site presenting the graphics and music together. This project is still in infancy, but a couple of very primitive early examples of the graphics are at http://www.hotwired.com/members/profile/troubtech/ if you're interested. If I had a digital camera or scanner, I'd probably have used my own images as source material for the graphics from the beginning. Lacking both, however, I'm using readily available material-- from the alt.binaries.* Usenet groups. Capriciously, I've chosen to limit myself thus far to images of human bodies. So-- I'm a self-confessed recontextualizer, shamelessly using "samples" of other people's work as source material for my own. So-- Why am I still very uncomfortable with using samples of other people's music in my own? Why do I so intensely dislike most of the sample-intensive music I've heard (admittedly very little)? Part of it, I'm sure, is Sturgeon's Law ("Ninety per cent of everything is crap"). ((Ob (condensed): Warhol's soup can had me screaming, "Fraud!") Part of it, I'm sure, is what Sean T Barrett aptly termed "an issue of granularity." In the graphics I've done so far, I'm confident that no human eye could recognize the source material without having it displayed beside my transformation of it-- and likely not even then; the "sample" is too small, and too completely transformed. The level of granularity of the sample seems to me to be equivalent to a word of text or a note of music-- probably not a legal copyright infringement, and certainly not a moral one AFAIC. A section of an image large enough to be recognizable despite my transformations would bother me, though-- as would a phrase of text or music, if it were the basis of the entire work. A quote, on the other hand, could legitimately be fairly extensive, if it didn't dwarf the recontextualizer's efforts. But I even quit using my drum machine, in part because it uses other people's sounds. Probably the level of granularity of a sampled drum hit would be that of a pixel or a letter of the alphabet; there's no sensible reason for me not to use it. I simply decided that I wanted to be responsible for creating every sound my audience hears, and to do so before its eyes and ears (not even any prerecorded samples of my own sounds). Does that make me a bad person? :-) John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Thu Aug 07 17:27:36 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 7 12:06:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwX9B-0002Pu-00; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:18:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:54:21 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com Message-ID: <970807135318_-354962730@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: re:Re: Midi standards Resent-Message-ID: <"7qnu8B.A.jDB.Mxg6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/145 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:18:53 -0700 X-UIDL: 36d9b37409c5c5cd0106f60d4c6bec2a But I can plug a cheap midi keyboard into my jamMan and access all the functions. I'm HAPPY. Andy (UK) From ???@??? Thu Aug 07 17:27:37 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 7 12:35:36 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwYLP-0006Xk-00; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:35:35 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.2.16.19970807142143.2ed726fc@texas.net> X-Sender: sharkey@texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (16) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 14:21:43 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: james rhodes Subject: Friday Night in San Antonio In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0nJpLD.A.wtF.aJi6z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/146 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:35:35 -0700 X-UIDL: b0551ed9b2f104e68115b8753e935833 hi looping folks, will be performing duet with an outstanding flamenco guitarist Scott Harris, at The Green Onion Lounge 1033 Ave. B 78215 (210) 224-4334. we will be performing mostly my non looping originals,,,however there will be enough looping for the looper's fix. we will be playing from 10:30pm-12:00am , and as usual i will be playing Stick(R) ,,, and thanks to list member/ plex owner Randy Jones for coming out to my last gig,,,much appreciated,,,thanks again for supporting independent music... and taking the time to read this shameless plug.. peace james rhodes From ???@??? Wed Mar 04 09:52:13 1998 >From kflint Tue Mar 3 23:49:34 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yA8vk-00079B-00; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:49:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970808002040.007a8980@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 00:20:40 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: My Looping Rig In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980303100207.007b89f0@wavefront.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980302014637.007bd670@wavefront.com> <339bd332.34fa124c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HoRqT.A.BsF.mWQ_0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3737 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:49:32 -0800 X-UIDL: 10dfdf39ffed6b8eab0bfcfd4622d2e3 Wonderful sounding rig, I'd like to hear it sometime if I could. My setup also fits in a four space skb accept for the midi foot controller and of course the guitar... I also play Steinberger, Mine is a GL2T. I believe it's also from the mid 80s. It's nice to hear from other Steinberger players... Anyway, just thought I'd say "hi" and respond... Have a nice day... Smiles, Corynne At 10:02 AM 3/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >In my solo loop performances I use a 1984 Steinberger GL-2 guitar (with a >fixed bridge!). I tune the guitar in straight 5ths: A E B F# C# G#. >This gives me nearly a five octave range from the open A to the G# at >the 24th fret. I've also modified the electonics in the guitar, replacing >the EMG pickups with passive, and adding the ability to select the >individual coils within each pickup (all without drilling a single hole). > > The guitar's signal goes into an Ensoniq DP/4+, which is an amazing >resource of tonal oddity. I worked with Ensoniq as a consultant to develop >the DP/4+, and spent about 6 months working with Jon Dattorro on the new >distortion algorhythms which became "Guitar Amp 4" and "Digital Tube Amp". >These simulations have tremendous touch response and are modeled after my >favorite class A tube amp. > >I split the DP/4+ into two 2-unit processors. The signal flow is from the >guitar to DSP A, in series with DSP B, the output of which goes to my >Lexicon Jam-man. The output of the Jam-man goes into the DP/4+ DSP C and D, >usually in series but often in a feedback configuration. > >The first 2 DSPs in the DP4/+ are used for my pre-loop processing, and I've >created presets using amps, 'TC-Sustainor" emulations, ring-modulation, >filters, octave-fuzzes, modulation delays, harmonizers, a guitar tuner, >etc. These sounds are captured in the Jam-Man. The last 2 DSPs in the DP/4+ >Are post loop processing, and are usually the overall ambience of the >performance, often employing 3D imaging tricks. > > The pre and post processing are independantly selected by my Rolls "Midi >Wizard" using mapped program changes. It also controls the Jam-Man. I use a >CV pedal to modulate the DP/4+. The Rolls is phantom powered through the >MIDI cable. > >The entire setup is mounted in a 4-space SKB rack with a 1-space connector >panel for the MIDI, CV, and audio interfacing. Since the connections are >all on the front, I leave the rear lid on the SKB and set it face-up on the >stage, which allows me to clearly see the displays. > > Setup and soundcheck take less than five minutes, and I can usually >carry-on my entire rig, including the Steinberger, when flying as they will >fit in an overhead compartment. > >-Chuck Zwicky > > > From ???@??? Fri Aug 08 23:49:08 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 8 12:53:50 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwv6b-0002u7-00; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:53:49 -0700 Posted-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:42:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970808194740.006dd6ec@pop.stud.ntnu.no> X-Sender: eriklj@pop.stud.ntnu.no X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 21:47:40 +0200 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Erik Ljones Subject: Upgraded echoplex arrivals in Europe (and more...) Resent-Message-ID: <"Y8r5M.A.6PC.jf36z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/147 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:53:49 -0700 X-UIDL: 5556a5d36a03f4fb7c17cd48f981a4df The people at Gibson just told me it may be another 3 weeks before the new upgraded Echoplexes reach Europe. I ordered mine 7 weeks ago, and I'm having problems killing off the waiting time. My Ensoniq Dp2 3.6 sec delay/looper and Boss pedals (2 sec) just don't do it for me anymore, I guess. This actually might make me go mad, you know. Any suggestions as for how to make my life seem meaningful playing the guitar the next 3 weeks? Oh, and by the way! How come nobody ever mentions the music of Robert Hampson/ MAIN on this list? You'd think the guitar freaks on this list would be obsessed by some of his recordings, like the "Firmament 3" record (not "hz", I hate that one).Wether or not you like the music of Main (Hampson), he truly is able to make interesting sounds come out of his guitars- The same thing goes for former Spacemen3 guitarist Sonic Boom. -Just wondering- Erik (NOrway) From ???@??? Fri Aug 08 23:49:16 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 8 16:14:12 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wwyEV-0000B1-00; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:14:11 -0700 Message-ID: <33EBB61A.3042@fredmarshall.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 16:13:18 -0800 From: fred marshall Reply-To: fred@fredmarshall.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: a little over "scale"? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H2PWP.A.VPH.He66z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/148 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:14:11 -0700 X-UIDL: aa4b5ee6c76f07905cffbf342fd85d93 - yo ! - (if he works 10 hrs a day) Bill Gates takes home 10 million dollars an hour -that's a hundred million a day, or a billion every ten days or 8 billion every quarter. - nobody's that good, except maybe - Marshall Arts - appearing at the Paradise Lounge tonight - 9:30 pm to close . . . - see you there? mmmmmmm From ???@??? Thu Mar 05 02:08:57 1998 >From kflint Wed Mar 4 20:13:48 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yAS2P-0001Rj-00; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:13:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970808204038.007a2580@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 20:40:38 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: slagging (was Re: Stick stuff) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980305001718.00e3dbb4@pop.chromatic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kRcmfC.A.Zs.oUi_0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3787 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:13:41 -0800 X-UIDL: 58448c28ea4256cd9d88811f2df90ad4 You must mean "Yawny", not Yanni... lol... zzzzzzzzz... Corynne At 04:17 PM 3/4/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 06:42 PM 3/4/98 +0000, tbajus wrote: >>> he was the sort of player who exerts powerful anti-spouse forces on >>> the audience, causing serious relationship conflicts among all couples >>> present. >> >>Is there any other kind? Of all of the stunningly beautiful, completely >>liberated, PhD toting, Kafka reading, sexually depraved women I have >>gone out with, I am hard pressed to find any musical common ground. >> > >Ah. You must come to realize that this is all completely your problem and >you must adapt. My advice is: Learn to enjoy Tori Amos. When you can sit >through 6 Tori shows in a row without complaining, you will have attained a >higher level of relationship success. It's not too hard, you just have to >ignore the lyrics and take notice of the nice improvisational interplay she >has between piano and vocal melody. The light show is usually pretty good, >too. Once you have managed this, you will have some chance of convincing an >SO to attend concerts of your favorite avant-loop artist, and she might even >pretend to enjoy it. Of course, if your girlfriend is a huge Yanni fan, >there may be no hope. Good luck, > >kim > >(if you think my relationship advice is worth anything, I've got some great >investment opportunities I'd like to discuss with you....) >________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint 408-752-9284 >Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com >Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com > > > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 05 02:09:18 1998 >From kflint Thu Mar 5 00:18:16 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yAVr3-0005Kf-00; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:18:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970809002624.007a19c0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 00:26:24 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: new kid on the block In-Reply-To: <01bd47b9$f975a300$d6014382@hovard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"k8PzrD.A.upE.07l_0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3794 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:18:13 -0800 X-UIDL: 58d34109d7cf189852252facc01221be Hello Thomas, nice to have you back on the list. Don't worry if a question seems silly, I'm sure that there will be some of us here who will be glad to answer them... Hope to speak with you soon... smiles, Corynne At 11:07 PM 3/4/98 +0100, you wrote: > a 20 year old norwegian. I was > "The >Tape Echo Boy That Didn`t Have a Looping Device- But Yearned and Wished to >" After a while of hanging out on the list (sans looping > unsubscribed. And within weeks of leaving the > So , after puttering with while I decided to get back on the list >and try to > So , here I am. Ready to spew out lame and simple >question that you got past years ago. Those of you who are thinking that > "" I am an idiot >" " , >"""" I got the vortex > haven`t got the footswithces > to get them working. Is > There , this is a typiacal > >from my part. If this will be a problem I hope > get warmed up I`ll probably explode in a > norway > > From ???@??? Sat Aug 09 21:54:06 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 9 15:52:48 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wxKNK-0007mN-00; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:52:46 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:45:38 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Looper's Delight takes a technical leap forward! Resent-Message-ID: <"QJQNUB.A.iJH.xQP7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/149 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:52:46 -0700 X-UIDL: d535223301212e1c6f7421626a19f520 As always, Looper's Delight lives by volunteers. Thanks to these folks, we have yet more good stuff on the web. If you think you would like to help out too, let me know! The latest contributions: It's so exciting! Thanks to Chris Chovit, Looper's Delight now has a search engine for the mailing list archives! Now you can effortlessly find arcane details about weird old delays among the zillions of posts ever made to the mailing list. A cgi script! Damn, before you know it we might even have java on there! Thanks Chris, I guess this means I need to update the archives with the last couple months worth of looptalk. Link to the search page and search away here: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/archive/archive.html And thanks to Bob Sellon, we now have the schematic for the Delta Labs Echotron on line. Fascinating! thanks, Bob! Satisfy your need to geek out on hardware here: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/tools/deltalabs/deltalabs.html And Michael Peters just sent me another version of the ever-growing profiles page, which should be up sometime this weekend. If any of you html hackers out there want to save Michael from his own generosity, he could really use some sort of form that automatically creates html for new profile entries. Contact him if you have ideas: Michael Peters . kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Sun Aug 10 12:19:41 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 10 00:34:56 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wxSWc-0001JI-00; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:34:54 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:23:03 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Loop performance listings Resent-Message-ID: <"j9KeUB.A.-7.41W7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/150 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:34:55 -0700 X-UIDL: 9b02f40145ae4a9bfe7e245cc3d78255 Ok loopers- I've just added a new section to the web site for finding listings of upcoming Looping performances. The page is located here: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/gigs/performances.html Basically it's a self-operated deal. The page has a link to the Musi-cal musical event database, which maintains worldwide listings of musical performances. The webmaster of Musi-Cal kindly added a category just for us, "looping." So when someone clicks on the link at Looper's Delight, it does a search at Musi-Cal for any performances with the "looping" category. If you want your performances to appear on such a search, all you have to do is go to the Musi-Cal site and enter it in their database: http://www.calendar.com/concerts There are also links on the performances page to the area on Musi-cal where you enter your performance info. So get on over there and enter your performances in the database! It'll only work if you use it! [the musi-cal webmaster was a little unconvinced that "looping" actually qualified as a proper category of performance rather than a sort of technique, and I'm not sure that I disagree with that point of view. I certainly wasn't very convincing, but neither of us sees any harm in describing performances that way. I guess it will become meaningful if we use it. So go nuts!] kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Sun Aug 10 12:19:43 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 10 01:09:29 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wxT43-0002EW-00; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:09:27 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:03:03 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Loop performance listings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"12ux1C.A.19B.DaX7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/151 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:09:27 -0700 X-UIDL: 74ed84a1306eb12b76c0dac85f2c2619 Kim -- Thanks very much for taking the time to set up the performance page. It can only help us all out! --Andre From ???@??? Sun Aug 10 12:19:50 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 10 03:08:22 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wxUv7-00053y-00; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:08:21 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:03:37 -0400 From: Michael Peters Subject: RE: Looper's Delight takes a technical leap forward! To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Message-ID: <199708100603_MC2-1CB0-BD40@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"eYzhe.A.BmE.rJZ7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/152 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:08:21 -0700 X-UIDL: b0e549b613e3ea5433b2837e8e7a5a46 >I just noticed that the link to "looper's delight" >is broken on the subpages. >You've got it going up one level too far. Oh. Please correct them, and I'll correct them here for the next version. (Already got 1 new entry today.) >Any progress on getting that web form figured out? no, I haven't looked into it yet, but I've asked Chris Chovit and he said he'd try to find a way to do it. Actually, it occurred to me this morning that the profiles page - which will continue to grow and grow - is a perfect candidate for a database. A database in combination with an entry form, once set up, would make it far easier to maintain the data, and even easier to read and find data. Programming databases is my speciality, that's what I'm living on, and I'm currently busy finishing a yellow-pages-online like company information site which is basically the same thing as a looping-musicians-information site. Do you know if there is a database engine running on the annihilist server which we could use? While it would probably be possible for me to set up such a database on my company's server (I'm in charge of the servers and the programming, and this thing wouldn't be very large), I think it would be better to have it all together on the annihilist server. OTOH, I could use existing technology (MS SQLServer with a WebDBC interface) on my company's server and more or less copy much of my existing code (database, forms and all), while on your UNIX server everything would be unfamiliar to me. Let me know what you think. ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html From ???@??? Sun Aug 10 12:19:50 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 10 06:32:32 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wxY6h-0002Sc-00; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:32:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199708101330.GAA02241@usr10.primenet.com> From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: Loop performance listings Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:30:39 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CQ8RhB.A.BKC.xJc7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/153 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:32:31 -0700 X-UIDL: 7b1a7ac3ec93005f4927c03fd0666e91 While I completely concur with Kim on the idea of Looping being redoubtful as a musical category, I'll not say no to our shoehorning-in on this one. Kudos for the connections, and for listening to us, Kim! [applause.ra] [g] Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Aug 10 12:19:52 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 10 07:22:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wxYtS-0003fn-00; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:22:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:19:35 -0400 From: Michael Peters Subject: oops ... wrong address To: "'Looper's Delight'" Message-ID: <199708101019_MC2-1CC8-71B6@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"P7CW0C.A.fVD.b5c7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/154 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:22:54 -0700 X-UIDL: 8bd6a48e0825bbbd6fe264db6683a102 please ignore my previous message about databases, folks, it was meant to be addressed to Kim privately. ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html From ???@??? Sun Aug 10 12:19:53 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 10 11:58:50 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wxdCT-00055M-00; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:58:49 -0700 X-Sender: gorton@g.imap.itd.umich.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:55:50 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: gorton@umich.edu (Russell Gorton) Subject: the agony of waiting philosophy Resent-Message-ID: <"qtLXG.A.tkE.t6g7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/155 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:58:50 -0700 X-UIDL: 165202fcf0a1c92d942eefe631cb2e5e Erik Ljones wrote: >The people at Gibson just told me it may be another 3 weeks before the new >upgraded Echoplexes reach Europe. I ordered mine 7 weeks ago, and I'm having >problems killing off the waiting time. My Ensoniq Dp2 3.6 sec delay/looper >and Boss pedals (2 sec) just don't do it for me anymore, I guess. This >actually might make me go mad, you know. Any suggestions as for how to make >my life seem meaningful playing the guitar the next 3 weeks? Hear hear! Waiting for my Echoplex nearly caused several psychotic episodes, right up to the day of delivery (me in my officecage chanting: "echoplexechoplexechoplex..." at the approaching UPS guy.) Let's face it: we're all techy geeks obsessed with ridiculously small-market electronics. How many people go out and buy a dedicated multi-effects processor every year compared to, say, the number of people who go out and buy color televisions or personal computers? (actually, this would be interesting to know...does NAMM keep these kinds of numbers?) And the ratio of people who buy something so specialized in function as a DEDICATED LOOPING DEVICE to those who buy "normal" effects processors...probably another jump down. The point is, connoisseurs and slight eccentrics that we are, we are often forced to wait longer and pay more for the goods that satisfy. We (probably) wouldn't want a world in which EVERYOHE craved their own [insert LoopingDevice(tm) of your choice here]; but it WOULD make them cheaper and plentiful (like color TVs.) These are the breaks of "swimming upstream" in life. Oh, sure, it's agonizing. But, the divine bliss one feels when the deal is made, and the wonderful posture of superiority (internalized or on public display) you get as a person of discrimination...these are the rewards of the cerebral, patient hobby/lifestyle. Enjoy it when it arrives. --RtG From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:45 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 20:02:08 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wy7Dj-0000Qj-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:02:07 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:19:58 +0200 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) Subject: Re: Ambient effects Resent-Message-ID: <"s3vHAB.A.iH.9D97z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/160 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:02:07 -0700 X-UIDL: 420c7715f33ed52db6c7c89b3278cc47 On 8/11/97 Namelss queried; >Okay, so let's not tear into me because I used the a-word, but what do you >find to be the best effects (and what hardware) for your less rhythmic >looping (how's that to replace the a-word?)? First off I love the a-word......and for my ambient loops ( generated with my jam men) I love to run them through my vortex and then add some reverb. I also have run side of my vortex feeding a Roland RPS-10. I add a bit more delay with this or add some pitch shifting...particularly if the loop is kind of dense the pitch shifter if changed slowly can be nice......or I can bypass the RPS-10. Lately I've been running loops and or sounds through I Sherman Filterbank I picked up used.Then I run this into the Vortex. This can get real crazy real fast. Peace, Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:41 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 17:11:42 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wy4Ym-0004wi-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:11:40 -0700 Message-ID: <33EFAA5A.107F@dmans.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:12:10 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" Reply-To: mnelson@dmans.com Organization: Boomerang Musical Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tf8VTB.A.qVE.bl67z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/156 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:11:40 -0700 X-UIDL: b098f19b729c7b85cc439e648ff0b4b9 Ian///Shakespace wrote: > A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's abilities as a > guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you hone > through practice. ... I really don't see a difference between a guitarist practicing his > craft and a DJ practicing his. ... a DJ is grafting, adding elements and > removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming may add or > take away notes from a riff. Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock can pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample into. But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, & attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The number of options available for expression affects the power and expressiveness of the instrument or method. A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone. Another way to say this is that if you don't play guitar but want to play like Alan Holdsworth, then you had better get started; it'll be a 10 or 20 year journey if it's even attainable for you. However, becoming a great DJ might take a few months to a year and a half; again, if you have it in you. So... is there a difference in the activities because one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful, expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music. Another angle is that the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), *that someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the same choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice. On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that some instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why are there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments? The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I was making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments can shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is a reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular than banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these instruments. Look out... incoming... Motley From ???@??? Sat Mar 07 18:28:51 1998 >From kflint Sat Mar 7 16:24:38 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBTtM-0004yG-00; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:24:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970811172054.007a2530@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:20:54 -0700 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: Kim's Musical "Anti-Spouse Forces Theorem" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K7LM9C.A.AZE.hSeA1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3912 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:24:36 -0800 X-UIDL: 9d8561c20fc43bceeca12d6d0a4f0fa2 >To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >From: Goddess >Subject: Re: Kim's Musical "Anti-Spouse Forces Theorem" >In-Reply-To: > > You know, it's really making me uncomfortable to be present on this list when all I'm hearing lately is "my girl friend does or doesn't do this", or the implication that all women love Tori or something like "yuck! girl germs!". This type of thing is really getting irritating. Did it ever occur to those of you who are complaining about your partners to a mailing list of people across the world who you don't even know, to get to know the people whom you're dating before you started dating them? If these issues are really as important to you as you've been saying, then you might consider doing something about it. The fact that I am a woman doesn't stop me from liking or performing many different types of music and creative expression. I enjoy music which I think is music of quality, whether it is in a major or minor key, in an "odd" time signature and so on... Many of my close friends like very similar music and art... We do exist! we are out here! we are quite a bit more plentiful than you think... Now, since I was hoping that this thread was pretty much on it's way out and because I favor Kim's suggestion to leave this and move on to the "future loop music" topic, I'll not speak on this again unless someone addresses me personally. Sincerely, Corynne At 8:24:19 AM, Tom wrote: >> >>>Face it - some of the stuff that we like just makes people want >>>to be far away. >> >>I can sum it up in one sentence- My girlfriend hates anything in minor keys, >>microtones, and odd meters. She even hates the one bend Steve Howe plays in >>"I've Seen All Good People!" >> >> >>Marshall >> >> >> From ???@??? Sat Mar 07 18:28:52 1998 >From kflint Sat Mar 7 16:37:12 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBU5V-0005ic-00; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:37:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970811173352.007a6100@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:33:52 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: Setup Time for Loop Rig In-Reply-To: <03e501bd4a14$3148d520$cef0ffd0@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eK8nDB.A.gJF.teeA1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3913 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:37:09 -0800 X-UIDL: d355e343dec7ac074ccabc8881330722 It usually takes me about ten minutes or so to set up my gear. I keep my cables and peddals in a bag with different compartments so I can get to them easily and quickly. I have a four space skb rack which holds all of my processors and an art x-15 foot controller which deals with the midi aspect of things. I usually go direct to a board or a PA for my sound, however, if I need to, I have a single two space rack with an Allesis RA 100 power amp and two 12 inch tube works cabs which are also pretty compact. I like to travel small and light if I can... Oh, by the way, the bag with the compartments makes breaking down a heck of a lot easier as well... smiles, Corynne At 04:58 PM 3/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > > I was wondering how long it takes everyone to set up at a gig with their >looping rig- anyone have any time/space saving advice??? > >Dave Eichenberger > > > > > From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:43 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 18:43:02 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wy5zB-0003ZR-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:43:01 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970812014708.0098ca38@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:47:08 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"AzYe_B.A.nAD.t677z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/157 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:43:01 -0700 X-UIDL: 53b5e2b748b7b2d8df5f8e87f70701b6 Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth.... Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to prove that one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? There's no need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. Learn from the differences, you might grow a little bit. kim (and next time you want to make gross generalities about some group or another, recall that you live in texas and there's no shortage of good redneck jokes! :-) ) At 07:12 PM 8/11/97 -0500, Mikell D. Nelson wrote: >Ian///Shakespace wrote: >> A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's abilities as a >> guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you hone >> through practice. ... I really don't see a difference between a guitarist practicing his >> craft and a DJ practicing his. ... a DJ is grafting, adding elements and >> removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming may add or >> take away notes from a riff. > > Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that >doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock can >pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample into. >But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, & >attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The number of >options available for expression affects the power and expressiveness of >the instrument or method. A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of >expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone. > Another way to say this is that if you don't play guitar but want to >play like Alan Holdsworth, then you had better get started; it'll be a >10 or 20 year journey if it's even attainable for you. However, becoming >a great DJ might take a few months to a year and a half; again, if you >have it in you. So... is there a difference in the activities because >one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful, >expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music. > Another angle is that the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), *that >someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the same >choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice. > > On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that some >instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why are >there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments? >The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I was >making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments can >shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is a >reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular than >banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these >instruments. > >Look out... incoming... > >Motley > > > ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:44 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 19:03:40 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wy6J9-0004qi-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: <33EFC39D.519A@gte.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:59:57 -0400 From: future perfect Reply-To: artmusic@gte.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) References: <2.2.32.19970812014708.0098ca38@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HS2SwC.A.ETE.wO87z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/158 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:03:39 -0700 X-UIDL: b6edb9c68ed8d602e86f9eecefee8c1f Kim Flint wrote: > > Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth.... > > Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to prove that > one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? There's no > need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. Learn from > the differences, you might grow a little bit. > > kim > > (and next time you want to make gross generalities about some group or > another, recall that you live in texas and there's no shortage of good > redneck jokes! :-) ) I have not posted to the Looper list before: my roomate is a guitarist and synthesist and I'm a singer and flutist... Though I do not wish to attack anyone on their views of music and its wide range of expressivity, I do not think a DJ is a musician. He may be a craftsman and an artist, just as say, a non-musician sound engineer can be, but I *do* believe you must play a musical instrument to be considered a musician. (And, yes, a voice *is* a musical instrument).:) If there is disagreement here, perhaps we must broaden our concept of what a musical instrument is...? Misha ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 "Nothing worthwhile is achieved suddenly" -Robert Fripp From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:44 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 19:30:54 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wy6jU-0006QW-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:30:52 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:25:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Nameless to the Goddess To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Ambient effects Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xm2JJ.A.krF.sm87z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/159 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:30:52 -0700 X-UIDL: f4b930ea9b6c762bab14ba36cc21a52d Okay, so let's not tear into me because I used the a-word, but what do you find to be the best effects (and what hardware) for your less rhythmic looping (how's that to replace the a-word?)? DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111@afn.org <*> Why am I such a dork? The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 B5 (passing beyond the Rim) list: babylon5-request@gatekey.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:46 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 21:10:26 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wy8Ho-00044z-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:10:24 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970812041514.00924428@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:15:14 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"r4uW4.A.tnD.kF-7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/161 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:10:24 -0700 X-UIDL: 0aa8e2dea1c18e145c2a6ab0ea616ca1 At 09:59 PM 8/11/97 -0400, future perfect wrote: >Kim Flint wrote: >> >> Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth.... >> > I have not posted to the Looper list before: my roomate is a guitarist >and synthesist and I'm a singer and flutist... oh, yeah, I forgot about singers. Guitarists are second. :-) Welcome to Looper's Delight...but you asked for it! > Though I do not wish to attack anyone on their views of music and its >wide range of expressivity, I do not think a DJ is a musician. He may be >a craftsman and an artist, just as say, a non-musician sound engineer >can be, Many DJ's would agree with you. If you are talking about people who work at radio stations or play hits from the 50's at weddings or whatever. That is a craft that requires a lot of skill, but is not the same as being a musician. However, there are many people using turntables and samplers and such to create unique and new music. Many of these people started out as the regular sort of dj, working at dance clubs or whatever, and gradually used their craft in increasingly creative ways. At some point they are quite obviously (to me anyway) musicians. Where I live, a number of local rock bands have even had dj's *as members* since the mid-80's. Functional, contributing members of the band. Certainly as qualified to be musicians as the singer, or even the drummer. :-) The local rap/hip-hop scene had people creating unique, new music this way for a decade before that. And really, to use your other example, there are a lot of recording engineers crossing this boundary as well. I've heard a lot of remixes in the past few years that were much more creative and interesting than the originals. Is the engineer responsible for this really just a craftsman? You might not like music created in these ways, but it doesn't mean that it is not music and the people doing it are not musicians. Let's not be so judgemental. Open your mind a little and revel in the differences. Go roll around in them. Soak them in, it won't hurt you. You might even find your own musical sensibilites growing as a result. >but I *do* believe you must play a musical instrument to be >considered a musician. (And, yes, a voice *is* a musical instrument).:) Well, I believe a musician is a person who creates music. Very simple, no complications. However they wish to do that is fine, it's up to their own creative muse. Who am I to decide? > If there is disagreement here, perhaps we must broaden our concept of >what a musical instrument is...? clearly..... To me, a musical instrument is whatever someone uses as a tool to create music. Why do we need to draw some line in the dirt about what does and does not qualify? Isn't that just a way to make sure we end up on the "right" side of the line? It's just a path to elitism and arrogance, and I'm very tired of seeing musicians behave that way. I've witnessed some extraordinary music created with the most unlikely of devices, in the most unlikely places, by the least likely individuals, and I'm very, very glad I was open enough to listen and appreciate what I heard. Again, like I asked before, what is the goal of trying to prove that one method for creating is better than another? Why do you feel a need to try? If you succeed in proving this, what is your next step? You need to delve into your own head to answer those questions. For me it meant understanding that after years of hard practice, I had developed a big ego to go along with the speed at which I could wiggle my fingers. I had to get over that and deal with a zillion insecurities about it all. I had to get humbled a bunch of times too. A never ending process, I imagine, but undoubtedly a healthy one. I'm certain I would have stopped growing as a musician if I hadn't dealt with those issues. This whole list is about creating music in an unusual way. For me, a looper is an instrument unto itself, and that's an idea that would probably be a bit controversial most anywhere else. Given that, it's sort of amazing to me to see some of the narrowness that's come up here about things like sampling and dj's and whatever. It hardly seems useful for us to be promoting these silly prejudices. And Misha, thanks for letting me use your post as a soapbox. No hard feelings meant, please feel free to join in any time. :-) good thing I'm not motivated about working today, kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:47 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 21:36:09 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wy8gg-0005gR-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:36:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:44:20 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33EFEA24.1D56@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <2.2.32.19970812014708.0098ca38@pop.chromatic.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"yq5C2C.A.8GF.ce-7z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/162 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:36:06 -0700 X-UIDL: 7a2ce46b0026dd48ea2544086f1fb130 Kim Flint wrote: > > Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth.... Bad day at the office, Kim? > Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to prove that > one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? There's no > need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. Learn from > the differences, you might grow a little bit. 'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please! For that matter, point out the killer bassoon solo... > (and next time you want to make gross generalities about some group or > another, recall that you live in texas and there's no shortage of good > redneck jokes! :-) ) Seems to me there's a profound difference between generalizing about instruments and generalizing about people. Motley was talking about instruments. And there's scarcely a paucity of Californian jokes here in Texas... (I'd put a smiley here, but that's not the way I feel right now.) > At 07:12 PM 8/11/97 -0500, Mikell D. Nelson wrote: > >Ian///Shakespace wrote: > >> A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's abilities as a > >> guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you hone > >> through practice. ... I really don't see a difference between a guitarist > practicing his > >> craft and a DJ practicing his. ... a DJ is grafting, adding elements and > >> removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming may add or > >> take away notes from a riff. > > > > Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that > >doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock can > >pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample into. > >But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, & > >attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The number of > >options available for expression affects the power and expressiveness of > >the instrument or method. A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of > >expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone. > > Another way to say this is that if you don't play guitar but want to > >play like Alan Holdsworth, then you had better get started; it'll be a > >10 or 20 year journey if it's even attainable for you. However, becoming > >a great DJ might take a few months to a year and a half; again, if you > >have it in you. So... is there a difference in the activities because > >one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful, > >expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music. > > Another angle is that the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), *that > >someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the same > >choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice. > > > > On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that some > >instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why are > >there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments? > >The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I was > >making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments can > >shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is a > >reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular than > >banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these > >instruments. > > > >Look out... incoming... > > > >Motley > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________ > Kim Flint 408-752-9284 > Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com > Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Sat Mar 07 23:20:44 1998 >From kflint Sat Mar 7 22:45:49 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBZqF-0002KS-00; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:45:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970811231844.007af570@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:18:44 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: loops and video? and future looping... In-Reply-To: <199803072040_MC2-35EE-E19@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NaMAkC.A.E8B.K4jA1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3926 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:45:47 -0800 X-UIDL: 7bfbdc6a0086f90c1fe9e2bdaff10f98 I did a project years ago which combined loop music with video, though it was never finished due to some extenuating circumstances, the concept and workingresult came off much better than we'd expected. I think loops and video can work wonderfully together. I've toyed with the idea for quite some time off putting together a performance which involved loop music, video or slides with dance and/or performance art. I got this idea after opening for Jilly Smithe who did a wonderful spoken-word performance with slides and musical accompaniment. I was really bothered that I couldn't move around or dance during some of the loops as I was "leashed" to my equiptment. As far as the direction of looping is concerned, I think it may involve more combinations of musical styles which weren't previously put together as fusion has done. I also see it branching out into other musical styles as well which it is already doing. The instrumentation is also becomming more and more diverse, and I think this will only continue. Couple these ideas with multi-media and movement, and we really have a lot to look forward to... smiles, Corynne At 08:40 PM 3/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >buzzard wrote: >>Well... people have talked before about the >possibility of visual accompaniment for loops... >I've always been pretty down on the idea because >visual looping pretty much has to be static >(I think video feedback might be more analogous)... >but there _is_ an industry of visual "loops" [1]... >so if you really want we could connect this >topic back to looping I'm sure...< > >Hey, our band sometimes plays with a video *scratcher* >who mixes his stuff on top of our music. He works with >pre-recorded cut-up videos and "blends" them together. >Anybody else doing this? Interestingly, people come up >to us after the show saying that they understood >all sorts of symbolic stuff etc. - none of which was intended. >It seems that *loopy* music fits really well with videos - I >hope that it has nothing to do with said auduence's >substance abuse/ overuse. People just make their own >associations between image and sound - fascinating. > >Rob > > > > From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:51 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 11 23:32:28 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyAVH-0003BD-00; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:32:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199708120629.XAA19614@usr08.primenet.com> From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:29:35 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WvbuQD.A.nyC.TLA8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/163 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:32:27 -0700 X-UIDL: be5b928ad20ad51067ad5c188bfcb262 I thought this one would go away but alas! No! So this is the only pair of pennies I'm putting in on it.... Discussions about relative merit on what is 'art' or what is 'music' in the comparison thereof can only be compared themselves to other forms of intellectual masturbation like the following: PC vs Mac C vs Pascal Sales vs Marketing White vs Black We should all spend more time composing or compositing or otherwise creating unless what we really wish to do is just intellectually jerk off. What are we, music critics or something? [g] Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 01:37:57 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 00:31:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyBQX-0005aa-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:31:37 -0700 Message-ID: <33F0105F.215E@gte.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:27:27 -0400 From: future perfect Reply-To: artmusic@gte.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) References: <2.2.32.19970812041514.00924428@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DYM3HB.A._8E.3BB8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/164 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:31:37 -0700 X-UIDL: 38921e4bdb0b947b8241c4995c239727 Kim Flint wrote: > > At 09:59 PM 8/11/97 -0400, future perfect wrote: > > >Kim Flint wrote: > >> > >> Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth.... > >> > > I have not posted to the Looper list before: my roomate is a guitarist > >and synthesist and I'm a singer and flutist... > > oh, yeah, I forgot about singers. Guitarists are second. :-) > > Welcome to Looper's Delight...but you asked for it! > > > Though I do not wish to attack anyone on their views of music and its > >wide range of expressivity, I do not think a DJ is a musician. He may be > >a craftsman and an artist, just as say, a non-musician sound engineer > >can be, > > Many DJ's would agree with you. If you are talking about people who work at > radio stations or play hits from the 50's at weddings or whatever. That is a > craft that requires a lot of skill, but is not the same as being a musician. > > However, there are many people using turntables and samplers and such to > create unique and new music. Many of these people started out as the regular > sort of dj, working at dance clubs or whatever, and gradually used their > craft in increasingly creative ways. At some point they are quite obviously > (to me anyway) musicians. Where I live, a number of local rock bands have > even had dj's *as members* since the mid-80's. Functional, contributing > members of the band. Certainly as qualified to be musicians as the singer, > or even the drummer. :-) Qualified to be members of the band, for sure...but you do not need to be a musician to be in a band (ask Yoko)...DJ's would probably not call themselves musicians, and this doesn't diminish their contributions to the music. > And really, to use your other example, there are a lot of recording > engineers crossing this boundary as well. I've heard a lot of remixes in the > past few years that were much more creative and interesting than the > originals. Is the engineer responsible for this really just a craftsman? You talk like being a craftsman is 'less' than being a musician-its just as important, just as vital to the music...great engineers I know don't call themselves musicians, they call themselves engineers. > Well, I believe a musician is a person who creates music. Very simple, no > complications. However they wish to do that is fine, it's up to their own > creative muse. Who am I to decide? Its the old 'if a monkey throws paint at a canvas, he's an artist' debate. In the end, its up to all of us to decide..if we don't like it, we don't buy it. And if that monkey is suddenly thrown into the international spotlight, it belittles the job 'artist'. I don't want to start a debate about what music is. You need to delve into your own head to answer those questions. For me it > meant understanding that after years of hard practice, I had developed a big > ego to go along with the speed at which I could wiggle my fingers. I had to > get over that and deal with a zillion insecurities about it all. I had to > get humbled a bunch of times too. A never ending process, I imagine, but > undoubtedly a healthy one. I'm certain I would have stopped growing as a > musician if I hadn't dealt with those issues. All musicians go through this, years and years of scales, gigs, lessons, etc... This is why a DJ is a DJ. > This whole list is about creating music in an unusual way. For me, a looper > is an instrument unto itself, and that's an idea that would probably be a > bit controversial most anywhere else. Given that, it's sort of amazing to me > to see some of the narrowness that's come up here about things like sampling > and dj's and whatever. It hardly seems useful for us to be promoting these > silly prejudices. In the end, if you like it, if other people like it, it doesn't matter how it was created. Or what we call the people who made it. Go forth, create...better than arguing about these goofy things. Let this thread die. Dave -- ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 "Nothing worthwhile is achieved suddenly" -Robert Fripp From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 03:27:40 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 02:09:42 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyCxR-0001K5-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:09:41 -0700 Message-Id: <1060.199708120905@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:05:48 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"95v6o.A.IHB.xeC8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/165 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:09:41 -0700 X-UIDL: 6aca9edd8184b1c13ed51fb12855e9c9 >Kim Flint wrote: > Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth.... Well, it's only 'cos we're BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE!!! :) > Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to prove that > one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? There's no > need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. Learn from > the differences, you might grow a little bit. Hey Kim, would you rather we went back to discussing hardware? :) Misha wrote: >Though I do not wish to attack anyone on their views of music and its >wide range of expressivity, I do not think a DJ is a musician. He may be >a craftsman and an artist, just as say, a non-musician sound engineer >can be, but I *do* believe you must play a musical instrument to be >considered a musician. (And, yes, a voice *is* a musical instrument).:) Now this is interesting. As a flautist, you may have a classical background. Now, would you say that an orchestral conductor is a musician? (S)He plays on instrument, but is largely seen as a musician. Dastardly- I mean Motley - wrote: > Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that > doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock can > pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample into. > But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, & > attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The number of > options available for expression affects the power and expressiveness of > the instrument or method. Yes, but a guitarst on his own is pretty imited. There aren't many solo electric guitar peices worth listening to. A DJ can tale the sounds of an orchestra, a funk band and NY art-scronk and come up with something huge-sounding. People playing musical instruments will always need to use other players to fill out the sound - drummers, bassists, thumb-pianists... which is almost what the DJ is doing. > A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of > expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone. A saxophone cannot sound as delicate and childlike as a thumb piano. > On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that some > instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why are > there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments? > The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I was > making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments can > shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is a > reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular than > banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these > instruments. No, I think a lot of it is to do with volume. The banjo was far morepopula than guitar well into the 40s. Cellos are loud but too deep-voiced to solo well over two violin sections. There are many solos for obscure instruments in classical music. Besides, as expressive instruments go the church organ is dire - note on, note off, nothing else. Now, tell me that Bach's Toccata & Fugue in Dmin is not expressive.... Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 03:27:43 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 03:00:04 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyDkA-0002zI-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:00:02 -0700 X-Sender: LEO@MAIL.DINONET.IT X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Leonardo Cavallo Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:03:58 +0200 Message-ID: <19970812100357343.AAA227@Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"RJjMJB.A.DrC.iOD8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/167 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:00:02 -0700 X-UIDL: 31f3e19c70b04aea88e05a6b3db9ac6f Great controversial issue!!! We're talking about creativity, no matter what instrument you're playing. No matter if it's a musical instrument or not... True creativity can move us through a lot of expressive vehicles. Don't limit yourself! I'm a Stick player. I'll spend the rest of my life studiyng this really difficult instrument. Am I more musicians of a strictly blues guitar player, who plays only 3 strings, some bendings and only pentatonics passages?? How do you consider a musicians ?? For how long does he study tecnique and scales??? Based on which parameters do you decide? And what about a player with a total different background from ours? A koto player? A traditional bouzoki musician? Some african percussion ensemble? Same parameters to judge? Do you talk about scales and bending with them or just hear the beauty of their expression? I know Djs and engineers with more musical attitude and talent than a lot of guitarist (drummers, singer, keyboardists, bassists, stickists) out there. Less musicians because the instrument they use?? I don't think so. Their samplings or sound elaborations can move me more than some istrionic hyper fast scalar passages or other "beauties" of the old cliched guitar world. And there's more: often these talented guys (DJs, etc) have not the arrogance to consider themselves musicians when a lot of simply "istrumentalists" think to have the right to call themselves "musicians". "Artists", too. Well, there's something wrong here. It's the substance, it's what you produce that is important. Maybe one of the reasons behind the new electronic boom (techno, jungle, trip.hop, etc) is that in these years DJs had a lot more to say than most guitarists (and all the family). Maybe is it possible?? Maybe not the only, but probably one of the reasons.... There're tedious guitarists and creative DJs. there're creative guitarists and annoying DJs. To find who's the musician, look for the music.... ciao leo From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 03:27:42 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 02:38:05 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyDOs-0002OP-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:38:02 -0700 Message-ID: <33F03C2A.15D7@fredmarshall.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:34:32 -0800 From: fred marshall Reply-To: fred@fredmarshall.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: life's loops and open minds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2grxc.A.OEC.m5C8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/166 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:38:02 -0700 X-UIDL: 1cb42ea7353ff4747060805712d09d34 - so many words . . . - so little thought. - i finally get it . . .y'all aren't joking ! - someone said: "A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone." - IN WHOSE HANDS? - and judged by whose thought police? - in the '50s i played at a lot of spontaneous sessions with drummers like "Philly" Joe Jones playing the phone book with a couple of ashtrays and some cocktail glasses, someone else playing spoons - and one cat used to whistle into a matchbook bent some funny way to approximate a flute - and the music was so good it'd make your hair hurt ! - who called the cops? - someone asked: "Why are there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments?" - how about piano? in the early '60s i was working and recording with Vince Guaraldi, and we did a series for the tv - Peanuts, or Charlie Brown or something, (one of the tunes was Linus and Lucy) anyway, i noticed then, and it is still true, that you only need to hear a couple of notes to KNOW that its Vince playing the piano and everybody knows that a piano can't "bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics." or so they say . . . - and someone else wrote : "'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please! - try Q-Bert ! ! ! Over at Slims in San Francisco our band (marshall arts) was paired with the Invisible Scratch Pickles, including Q-Bert, and we played the last half of the show together - having never heard or seen each other before that night - and they ARE real musicians - it was beautiful - i call Q-Bert the Max Roach of scratchers and that's a conservative description - they practice their ART "24-7". - as to the solos by Mr Cooder and Mr Garret . . . i admire their work and i appreciate something beautiful or powerful whenever it turns up but its hard for me to imagine what it makes YOU feel like. - which brings to mind a story about George Bernard Shaw, when he was in his 80's, at a dinner party. Mr Shaw's eighty year old sphincters weren't exactly in his control anymore and he farted, as people sometimes do. When the "sweet young starlet" the hostess had seated beside him laughed, he turned to her and said " My dear you're so easily amused - you should come to all of my plays". - I DO know that having been raised in the disipline called jazz and having played with guitarists like Wes Montgomery and Howard Roberts, hearing them every night play hundreds of choruses on the same tune without repeating themselves (them was the rules!) its sometimes hard to keep the "snob wax" out of my ears. But then i remember that Wes gave me my first pickup - Although i was the bass playe, i had welded up this fretless 8-stringed instrument using re-bar and steel - and asked him how to make it come out of the amplifier . . . he said "you got to have a PICKup" and drove me over to a luthier in san francisco to get one they'd taken off his guitar (Gibson was making him a special guitar) - he did that because HE wanted to hear what it would sound like - which started me down (or up) the path of study that is still unfolding - making and playing things that haven't been on the planet before - i received US Patent #3,447,412 for that one. (the Megatar) - you can see it on p. 95 of a book that just came out - The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame's "I Want To Take You Higher - The Psychedelic Era, 1965-1969" . . . at the top left of the picture is one of my early loopers - the first one was in late '63 - i called them "Time Tunnels", a sony TC-220 that i modified - stereo loops - but you were stuck with the tape length even if it did have 7&1/2, 3&3/4. and 1&7/8 speeds - the young lady is my then wife and the mother of my children, including "the tenor player i met in the delivery room" who is currently 1/3rd of marshall arts - she had a hit record with WE FIVE. The song was "You Were on My Mind" - next to her is Noel Jewkes who can play "Donna Lee" on a one stringed Chinese violin OR on the saw, as well as any horn ever made, plus some we made - next to him is Jerry Granelli who i worked with for over 15 years - we also performed w/out the lights as "Sound" - downstairs are Bill Ham and Bob Fine who were "Light" of Light Sound Dimension. - and i am eternally grateful for Wes's "open mind". - here we are . . . fred marshall From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:12 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 03:45:28 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyES7-0004OL-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:45:27 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <33EFEA24.1D56@delphi.com> References: <2.2.32.19970812014708.0098ca38@pop.chromatic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:42:51 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"iSrWz.A.K_D.54D8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/168 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:45:27 -0700 X-UIDL: 8cd4de1557a9272e6c4155bcadb6a40f At 11:44 PM -0500 8/11/97, John Pollock wrote: >'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make >me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos >Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please! Phrased this way, it's an absurd DJ vs Guitarist competition with arbitrary standards of merit. It just begs another round of my endless and now tedious refrain of "what is the point?" But rephrased, it becomes much more interesting. And becomes a chance to learn from each other. How about if you spend some time explaining to those who are not familiar with Ry Cooder and Amos Garrett why these particular musicians are especially moving to you? Maybe you could teach us something about their music so that we could maybe learn to appreciate it in the same way you do. Hopefully we can learn something that will give us new insight to our own music. I know nothing about Amos Garrett, and only a little about Ry Cooder. What I heard of Ry Cooder apparently didn't move me the same as you, so I probably missed something. Maybe you could teach me and others what that was? And by the same token, those interested in electronic music of various sorts could possibly explain to others what it is about that music that appeals to them and moves them in a particular way. Teach us about the elements of that music that make it creatively satisfying, so that those doing different sorts of music might learn to appreciate it and possibly gain new insights to their own music. Part of the deal is we give each other some respect and not trod on the differences we find. Also: we must realize that it is entirely possible that we *won't* understand the other sort of music, and that it might not move us, but that doesn't make it a less valid form. It's just different, and for whatever reason, doesn't connect with us. It does move someone else, and that has to be ok. And: our teachers might fail; we might not be ready to learn. Still, the opportunity to learn from the unfamiliar is valuable, and deserves respect. Now I'm not remarkably qualified on the electronica front, (after all, I've played guitar since I was 7 and spend most of my time playing jazz and blues) But a lot of music I've heard there has really turned my head around and opened up new ideas. A lot of this has already been mentioned here, actually. So some things to check out, homework if you will, would be dj spooky, dj shadow, dj krush, Buckethead's Day of the Robot w/dj ninj or his current group with dj disc (a little guitar crossover :-) ), the orb, future sound of london, aphex twin, underworld, orbital, meat beat manifesto, and even David Torn's what means solid, traveller. Some older stuff that really mattered to me includes Ministry, skinny puppy, the beastie boys, public enemy, front 242, and kmfdm. This acually represents a very wide range of music, but even so, totally misses entire categories of "electronica." Others will hopefully be better able to add good examples. >For that matter, point out the killer bassoon solo... I like the way bassoon sounds, why are putting that one down? After playing guitar all my life, working for a guitar company, and generally being with it forever, I would be quite happy to spend a year listening to bassoon! >Seems to me there's a profound difference between generalizing about >instruments and generalizing about people. Motley was talking about >instruments. Choosing a musical instrument is a very personal decision. Putting down an instrument means putting down someone who made that choice. That's why some of us get so worked up about it. Looping obviously appeals to a wildly divergent group of people, with some stunningly different interests and backgrounds. Yet somehow we all have looping as a common thread. We should be exploring that! So much to learn from each other, so little time here. Let's not waste it on foolishness. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:14 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 04:14:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyEtx-00058o-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 04:14:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCA6EF.E5E95540@mark.asisoftware.com> From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: 'Loopers Delight' Subject: DJs as Musicians Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:18:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HXEYnB.A.wsE.8TE8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/169 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 04:14:13 -0700 X-UIDL: 5fd3e7a94a9ed73647a64f71376424cc I've found the debate about whether DJs are musicians to be very interesting. When I first heard and saw a DJ scratching, I thought all you had to do was scratch an LP and rotate it backwards and forwards. It appeared to be easy and many times I thought the DJ was pantomiming to a pre-recorded tape. Then I heard a DJ Spooky CD that was recommended on Loopers Delight last winter. I was simply amazed. It hit me as hard as Side 2 of "Abbey Road" by the Beatles, "Birds of Fire" by the Mahavishnu Orchestra, "No Pussyfooting" by Fripp and Eno, and "BloodSugarSexMagic" by the Red Hot Chilli Peppers. As a guitarist, I could understand how these records were made and copy the guitar, bass and keyboard parts from them. However, I had no idea how DJ Spooky created his CD. This is my general reaction to most DJs. It amazes me how they are able to find, sample and collate all of the recordings, samples and effects and create a cohesive piece of art. Could I listen to DJs all day? No. But then I couldn't listen to any one thing all day. I like lots of variety in the music that I listen to, and I try to approach each new wrinkle in music with an open mind. There's usually something that I can learn from it. Are DJs musicians in the traditional sense? I don't know, but perhaps it is better to approach them as composers in the sense that the pioneers of musique concrete were composers who manipulated tape into complete compositions. Thank God that the human mind can conceive of and implement new types of music. Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:15 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 05:22:50 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyFyL-0007Wm-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:22:49 -0700 X-Sender: LEO@MAIL.DINONET.IT X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Leonardo Cavallo Subject: Re: life's loops and open minds Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:26:04 +0200 Message-ID: <19970812122603328.AAA185@Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"wqz5xD.A.w5G.1TF8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/170 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:22:49 -0700 X-UIDL: 8f3dd677368225a3f08fcc41bb5b824c Thanks to Fred Marshall Not only DJs.... some E-mails too can be really crative and inspiring.... CIAO leo From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:34 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 10:45:18 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyL0P-00024O-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:45:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199708121741.KAA08960@apple.com> Subject: Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 12:43:25 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"aG-Y5D.A.7fB.3AK8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/178 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:45:17 -0700 X-UIDL: bf50f66def71a93c73a0493eb7f79f6a >Looking for something extreme in terms of signal processing? One suggestion >and a favorite toy of mine is a Ring Modulator (in my case a old EH Frequency >Analyzer). Just this weekend I tried out the Boss Bass Synthesizer pedal (which was going for about $225). It's aimed at bassists, but you can get all sorts of head-turning, room-clearing sound out of it. I didn't have the manual, but it had ten or so modes, a few were auto-wah, some were "vowel sounds", the rest were marked "internal sound" or something similiar. It had a mix control, resonance, frequency, sensitivity controls. I don't know what they did technically, but I played around with it, just with a guitar plugged into it and then into an amp, and I got all sorts of bizzare shit out of it. Particulary good if you play a chord and watch it try to figure out what notes to play. For instant "what the hell is that?" impact, I don't think you can beat it. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 12:00:59 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 11:14:52 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyLT1-00057L-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:14:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199708121810.LAA21348@apple.com> Subject: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 13:12:37 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"sPek0D.A.JcE.ZcK8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/180 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:14:51 -0700 X-UIDL: 423b8c196b1687bbc926a36bb6614b68 Well, the list is livening up. Some thoughts: Various instruments can be used in various ways, some more commonplace than others. If you're looking for an instrument to establish the rhythmic pulse of a piece of music, the drum kit (in its various configurations) is probably a good place to start. If you're looking for someone to make an improvised melodic statement, the drums would probably not be near the top of the list of likely tools. Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? How many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by something with a piano-keyboard interface? If someone says "I am not a musician", what does it mean if you insist that they are? And vice versa? Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the same way that Cream records are? Will Mobile Fidelity Sound ever release a remastered version of "It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back"? Did fusion kill bop? Did rock kill jazz? Did hip hop kill rock? Did rock kill disco? Did rock kill dance music? Did electronica kill rock? No instrument can do everything. It is not an admission of weakness or a lack of vision to concede this. Why is it that it's "Guitar *Player* Magzine", and "Bass *Player* Magazine", and then "Keyboard Magazine"? Why no "Keyboard *Player* Magazine"? Do you suspect that I'm a Guitar Bigot, or just trying to cause trouble? Travis Hartnett From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 12:01:01 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 11:21:22 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyLZJ-0005hY-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:21:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199708121817.LAA29030@apple.com> Subject: Bassoon Uber Alles Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 13:20:06 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"fx2FHB.A.uDF.VjK8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/181 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:21:21 -0700 X-UIDL: 01eb9463856d0db9e53ee10614e178a4 >P.S. John P. -- my posting is not directed at you specifically, but to >answer a question you asked -- here is a listing of some bassoon solos >and bassoon music... > > >International Double Reed Society >Library Holdings - Music: Solo Bassoon >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The following is music for Solo Bassoon. The entries in this list are >sorted by Composer. (long list of works deleted) I think John P. may have (and if not, I am) been referring not to works written for unaccompanied bassoon, or featuring the bassoon, but rather spontaneous realtime composition and performance over a pre-decided backing, i.e., a hot bassoon solo in the pop music sense. From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:05 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 14:06:37 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyO9E-0006ld-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:06:36 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:26:16 +0200 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) Subject: Manual Resent-Message-ID: <"LCKnfB.A.6CG.W-M8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/205 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:06:36 -0700 X-UIDL: e8f969a851648efcce9e96635ef2f143 Hey Siobahn, Patrick here. DId you ever get a jam man manual. Perhaps we can hook up sometime soon? P. *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:16 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 06:38:37 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyH9f-00032b-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:38:35 -0700 Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F18E97D@mail.exapps.com> From: David Kirkdorffer To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:36:32 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"T9ZV9.A.JlC.faG8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/171 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:38:35 -0700 X-UIDL: 0975bb01d2d6e6157e0a36d03a344e1c I too am looking for a few good effect processors for my ambient UNDOings. I don't need the standards: chorus, flange, delay, pitch-shift. I'm looking for DRASTIC effects rendering a guitar very UN-guitar-like. I have a Vortex already -- now I quest for something more wild. Loop-folk, you're my best source honest assessments. Your help greatly appreciated! David Kirkdorffer UNDO > -----Original Message----- > From: patrick@his.com [SMTP:patrick@his.com] > Sent: Monday, August 11, 1997 3:20 PM > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > Subject: Re: Ambient effects > > On 8/11/97 Namelss queried; > > >Okay, so let's not tear into me because I used the a-word, but what > do you > >find to be the best effects (and what hardware) for your less > rhythmic > >looping (how's that to replace the a-word?)? > > First off I love the a-word......and for my ambient loops ( generated > with > my jam men) I love to run them through my vortex and then add some > reverb. > I also have run side of my vortex feeding a Roland RPS-10. I add a bit > more > delay with this or add some pitch shifting...particularly if the loop > is > kind of dense the pitch shifter if changed slowly can be nice......or > I can > bypass the RPS-10. > > Lately I've been running loops and or sounds through I Sherman > Filterbank > I picked up used.Then I run this into the Vortex. This can get real > crazy > real fast. > > > Peace, > > Patrick > > > *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** > ** > > From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:19 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 07:13:13 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyHft-00052b-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:11:53 -0700 From: "Siobhan Canty" To: "Looping" Subject: Context Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:58:23 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <13594686005150@cfpa.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"VWV8T.A.D1D.WxG8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/173 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:11:53 -0700 X-UIDL: 60badd5e78972725b712e567bb942dbb 1) Just as visual art is not judged by the brushes used to create it, music should not be judged by the physical object from which it eminiates. 2) I think that the subject of context has gone largely undiscussed in this conversation. What makes a musician great - whether it be a guitarist, singer, matchbook player, whatever - is a communicated understanding of context. An artist in any medium should possess a historical knowledge of that genre and strive to make a statement within that context. That is why art communicates through time. That is also why a "valid musician" is one who has studied his or her craft well enough to understand the arsenal of techniques at his or her disposal and who combines those with his own sensibilities to create a sound which stands the test of time simply by virtue of making an educated statement. Now, don't assume that the historical context of every genre is extensive. (ie: the age of a medium does not equal its worth) Take, for instance, the DJ. Social changes - in everything from technology to the economy - had created a new voice that was not being expressed... urban, high tech, frustrated, etc. So a new language was created; one which rightfully reflects not only these qualities and more, but one that also re-hashes elements of past music and sound bytes - just the way we all live now (flower-power retro re-hash). This process has happened throughout history. Its just that now we are hearing a message from the last half of the 20th century using the tools we now have available. This filtering of context through contemporary sensibilities gives us the ability to recognize the DJ as being as valid as Ry Cooder as valid as Satie as valid as Bach. The brushes they used may have been different but the context in which each of them contributes is undeniable. From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:18 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 07:07:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyHbh-0004ko-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:07:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCA707.26112A00@mark.asisoftware.com> From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:04:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2ztz7.A.ztD.OwG8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/172 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:07:33 -0700 X-UIDL: d297a898ef163d03351cdfccf019198c I have found these to be fairly wild effects: - Boss RPS-10 - Reverses and/or pitch shifts an audio signal. - Digitech IPS-33B - Generates arpeggios from a single note or provides strange harmonies. (You must program your own weirdness, the factory programs are pretty tame.) - Ring Modulator - especially weird if you vary the carrier frequency (available in the Alesis Quadraverb Plus). - Tremelo - using a square wave and 100% mix causes the signal to abruptly turn off and on. - ADA Flanger - its controls are very wide ranging and at extreme settings, the effect obliterates the input signal. - Eventide Ultraharmonizer - if you have a zillion dollars . . . Also, Digitech/DOD has just introduced a new pedal called the Mouth or the Voice. It offers vocoder and talk box effects. See the ad in the most recent issue of Guitar World. It includes a 1-800 number for an audio demonstration. Also, you might want to check out Andy Butler's Vortex website. It includes Vortex patches and morphs. Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com ---------- From: David Kirkdorffer[SMTP:DKirkdorffer@exapps.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 9:36 AM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! I too am looking for a few good effect processors for my ambient UNDOings. I don't need the standards: chorus, flange, delay, pitch-shift. I'm looking for DRASTIC effects rendering a guitar very UN-guitar-like. I have a Vortex already -- now I quest for something more wild. Loop-folk, you're my best source honest assessments. Your help greatly appreciated! David Kirkdorffer UNDO > -----Original Message----- > From: patrick@his.com [SMTP:patrick@his.com] > Sent: Monday, August 11, 1997 3:20 PM > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > Subject: Re: Ambient effects > > On 8/11/97 Namelss queried; > > >Okay, so let's not tear into me because I used the a-word, but what > do you > >find to be the best effects (and what hardware) for your less > rhythmic > >looping (how's that to replace the a-word?)? > > First off I love the a-word......and for my ambient loops ( generated > with > my jam men) I love to run them through my vortex and then add some > reverb. > I also have run side of my vortex feeding a Roland RPS-10. I add a bit > more > delay with this or add some pitch shifting...particularly if the loop > is > kind of dense the pitch shifter if changed slowly can be nice......or > I can > bypass the RPS-10. > > Lately I've been running loops and or sounds through I Sherman > Filterbank > I picked up used.Then I run this into the Vortex. This can get real > crazy > real fast. > > > Peace, > > Patrick > > > *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** > ** > > From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:28 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:11:24 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMLh-0002P6-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:11:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199708121906.MAA25648@apple.com> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 14:08:58 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"fd2h5D.A.OzB.ERL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/183 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:11:21 -0700 X-UIDL: b734f5874dc5fdac01eded1bae8f297f >> >International Double Reed Society >> >Library Holdings - Music: Solo Bassoon >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The following is music for Solo Bassoon. The entries in this list are >> >sorted by Composer. >> >> (long list of works deleted) >> >> I think John P. may have (and if not, I am) been referring not to works >> written for unaccompanied bassoon, or featuring the bassoon, but rather >> spontaneous realtime composition and performance over a pre-decided >> backing, i.e., a hot bassoon solo in the pop music sense. > >All John requested was "Point out a killer bassoon solo" to which >Dave complied. Sorry to nitpick but he didn't specify a pop music >context. > >Even if he did, does it really matter? A killer bassoon solo is a killer >solo regardles of genre. The definition of a "solo" varies by genre. A "solo" in the classical music genre most often refers to a precomposed (by someone other than the instrumentalist) section of music. I believe a cadenza is the term for an improvised solo performance, but I think that this is usually unaccompanied, and occurs at the beginning or end of a composed piece. A "solo" in pop-derived music (including for this purpose, jazz) usually refers to something composed by the instrumentalist, usually in some semblance of realtime. In a live context (to kill the topic of punch-in's or comp'ed performances), it's usually improvised, perhaps using previous improvisations as a guide or starting place. Following the jazz tradition, I would say that in it's purest sense, the "solo" within pop music is different each time. I think a good case can also be made that most "solos" in pop-music are ego-driven displays, designed to cut heads, or earn the Blow Job (as Zappa said). To deny this is noble, but inaccurate. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:28 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 07:42:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyI9Y-0006vC-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:42:32 -0700 Message-ID: <33F073D8.476F5143@wsdesigns.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:31:53 -0700 From: Warren Sirota Reply-To: wsirota@wsdesigns.com Organization: WS Designs X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Ambience X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w2lv_C.A.8yF.aPH8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/174 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:42:32 -0700 X-UIDL: c3e7539ee53566025dcc0a1ac2d0d8a1 Hi again, Y'know, it occurred to me that because I play jazz guitar in restaurants every week, that I am truly making "ambient music," in the most literal sense, on a regular basis. Take it from me, after a while it's not that satisfying from a performance point of view. Maybe it's my Old Age ego, but the more people that actually pay conscious attention to me, the happier I am (in line with that, I'm cutting back my restaurant schedule in order to make room for other things). Note, however, that if I brought my Echoplex to one of these restaurants, the results would undoubtedly be "non-ambient", due to the novelty alone, even if I played "polite" music. -- Yours truly, Warren Sirota musician, programmer, writer http://wsdesigns.com/wsirota From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:47 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:56:05 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyN2v-0007Bj-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:56:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199708121942.MAA05168@apple.com> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 14:45:02 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"wbh6R.A.-KG.o6L8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/191 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:56:01 -0700 X-UIDL: 86ddd06d73286d9f90fb6adfcd2079e9 >> Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard >> heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? How >> many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by something >> with a piano-keyboard interface? > >Keith Emerson? >Hell, he even smashes the keyboard up at the end of the gig! > >Failing that, no. there's a limit to how cool you can look sitting down, >and no, upright controllers don't count. Yeah, but that coolness doesn't come through the radio speakers, and as I sit here mentally reviewing the last thirty years of pop music, I'm hard pressed to come up with more than a handful of keyboard solos. Even in ELP's hits, I'm not remembering the solos, except for "Lucky Man", which I don't like, and I've seen Keith disavow it many a time. There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the instrument would be viewed for the next decade. Even if you hated what followed Van Halen, you were in reaction to what was laid out in those three minutes. Why is that? I have my theories, but I'd like to hear from any keyboard players on the list. > >Fave kbd solo in a rock song? "Incommunicado", Marillion. Ironically, Mark Kelly is one of my favorite keyboard players (along with Tony Banks [Genesis] and Greg Hawkes [The Cars]), and when I listen back through the Marillion catalog, I'm surprised at how many keyboard solos there were. Still, I always got the impression that Steve Rothery (the guitarist, for those of you who aren't Marillion-aware) got the spotlight. Perhaps that's because I'm primarily a guitarist (although I play keyboards as needed, and played piano as a kid). And, Marillion wasn't that popular, certainly not in the States, and only as a large cult in Europe. I'm looking for *hits* with keyboard solos, not because I think that sales are the most important thing, but because they are a measure of what large numbers of people like. > >> Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the >> same way that Cream records are? > >Only if there's any justice left. Don't bet on it. Influential as Art of Noise has been on people who own and/or operatate synthesizers, I think they may end up in the category of "Historical Significance Only". I mean, I think that the third Peter Gabriel album (with the melting face cover, includes "Games Without Frontiers" and "Biko") is ENORMOUSLY influential, enjoyable and worthy of praise, but I'm astounded at the number of people, even musicians with a stated interest in unusual, electronic pop music, who are unaware of or indifferent to it. If nothing else, this is the album that singlehandedly introduced the gated reverb drum sound to the world, but it doesn't really matter in the end. Civilians hear it and say "Nice...but I prefer 'So'." Try this on for size: "Pretty Hate Machine" is a thousand times more likely for the MFS treatment, and made much more of an impact on musicians and the public at large. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:30 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 08:19:07 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyIiv-0001eo-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:19:05 -0700 Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F18E99B@mail.exapps.com> From: David Kirkdorffer To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: No, No, No -- You're wrong. Actually, the World's Best Instrumen t is... Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:57:49 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"49cirC.A.DPB.I4H8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/176 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:19:05 -0700 X-UIDL: 4c2cdff97a863e63c79ab993ea8b41b3 Excellent! We've started a really stupid and pointless thread in our Looping tappistry! OK -- I'm gonna pour some gasoline on a very non-loop oriented thread. There is IMHO no such animal as THE most expressive instrument. What bullshit is that! Spare me the agony of your reasoning, whatever it may be. Travel the world and discover what makes the emotions stir in other cultures. Travel through time and hear how instruments were used in the past. If there is an instrument that typically has proven itself to stir valuable experiences IN YOU -- excellent, wonderful, powerful. Such experiences can be one of the treasures of life. They are alive. And, they are personal. Explaining them is as difficult (if not as futile) as explaining humor. And even if we took a poll of the Inhabitants of Earth and asked them "What is your favorite instrument?" my guess is many will not check the box marked Electric Guitar. And, if we learned that "THE VOICE" is statistically more popular than "Piano" or "Guitar" does that mean that Mozart's Piano Sonatas or Hendrix' Purple Haze would sound better sung by a choir? And if you think I'm full of shit -- that's OK too! It's a big world and I can learn from you, too. Ignorance is expensive. Now -- BEFORE you flame me -- please read this post again. David P.S. John P. -- my posting is not directed at you specifically, but to answer a question you asked -- here is a listing of some bassoon solos and bassoon music... International Double Reed Society Library Holdings - Music: Solo Bassoon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The following is music for Solo Bassoon. The entries in this list are sorted by Composer. COMPOSER-TITLE-EDITOR 1.Adelberg-Rudow, Vivian-Kaddish 2.Allard, Maurice-Bassoon Method- 3.Allard, Maurice-Tablatur, Trills, Diatonic and Chromatic Scales- 4.Allard, Maurice-Variations sur un theme de Paganini (24e caprice)- 5.Anonymous-Tablature du Basson Ancien (Bassoon Method including etudes and fingering charts for old systems)- 6.Arnold, Malcolm-Fantasy for Bassoon- 7.Bach, Johann Sebastian-Three Suites for Bassoon-Hellyer, Roger 8.Bajeux-Traits Difficiles- 9.Bassoon Excerpts-Bassoon Excerpts from Standard Orchestral Repertoire: Book Two- 10.Bassoon Excerpts-Bassoon Excerpts from Standard Orchestral Repertoire: Book Three (Wagner)- 11.Bassoon Excerpts-Bassoon Excerpts from Standard Orchestral Repertoire: Book Four- 12.Bassoon Excerpts-Bassoon Excerpts from Standard Orchestral Repertoire: Book Five - 13.Bassoon Excerpts-Bassoon Excerpts from Standard Orchestral Repertoire: Book Six- 14.Bassoon Music-Zeitgen†ssische Musik fr Fagott Solo-Hhnchen, Dieter 15.Batashov, K.-Etudes for Bassoon-Terekhin, R. 16.Bentzon, Jorgen-Studie i Variationsform- 17.Bizey, Prudent & Co.-Tablature du Basson Ancien- 18.Bona, Pasquale-Rhythmical Articulation for Bass Clef Instruments, Parts II and III from the Complete Method- 19.Borsody, Laszlo-Shavings, Nine Pieces for Bassoon Solo- 20.Bozza, Eugene-Graphismes, Graphic Notations: Preparation for the Reading of Different Contemporary Musical Graphic Notations- 21.Capanna, Robert-Remembrance- 22.Chasalow, Eric David-Advent of the Wyvern- 23.Cuciureanu, Georghe-Capriciul 5, Capriciul 6- 24.Cytron, Warren-Wild Mushrooms- 25.Denisov, Edison-Sonate pour Basson seul- 26.Flament, Edouard-Exercises Techniques pour le Basson- 27.Gambaro, J. B.-18 Studies-Kovar, Simon 28.Gower, William-Rubank Advanced Method, Bassoon, Vol. 1 (and Fingering Chart)- 29.Grigoriew, B.-Etiudy na puzon-Kwiatkowski, F. 30.Hachigian, Dorian-Piece for Unaccompanied Bassoon- 31.Israel, Brian-Dance Suite-Garfield, Bernard 32.Jacobi, C.-6 Caprices-Kovar, Simon 33.Jancourt, Eugne-26 Melodic Studies- 34.Kessler, Claude S. ed.-Bassoon Passages: Book Two- 35.Koch, Erland von-Monolog 5- 36.Kopprasch, C.-60 Studies- 37.Kopprasch, C.-Sixty Selected Studies for Trombone (Bassoon), (2 vol.)- 38.Langey-Langey-Carl Fischer Tutor for Bassoon 39.Lerstad, Terje Bjrn-Fagott Solo, Op. 136-Kovar, Simon 40.Mignone, Francisco-16 Valsas para Fagote Solo-Kovar, Simon 41.Milde, L.-25 Studies in Scales and Chords, Op. 24-Allard, Maurice 42.Milde, L.-Concert Studies, Op. 26 (Vol. 2)-Allard, Maurice 43.Milde, Ludwig-25 Concert Studies, Op. 26b- 44.Milde, Ludwig-25 Concert Studies, Op. 26a- 45.Milde, Ludwig-25 Studies on Scales and Argpeggios, Op. 24- 46.Milde, Ludwig-Concert Studies for Bassoon, Op. 26 (2 vol.)- 47.Milde, Ludwig-25 Studies in All Keys for Bassoon-Smith, Linda 48.Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus-Album of Orchestra Parts for Bassoon I- 49.Mueller, Florian-A Method for Bassoon- 50.Nordensten, Frank Tveor-Poema del sol-posto: Four Studies for Bassoon Solo 51.Orefici, Alberto-Studi Melodici- 52.Oromszegi, Otto-Fifteen Characteristic Pieces in Hungarian Style- 53.Oromszegi, Otto-Tiz Modern Fagott-Etud 54.Oromszegi, Otto-Twenty Advanced Bassoon Studies- 55.Osborne, William-Rhapsody for Bassoon- 56.Oubradous, Fernand-Enseignement Complet du Basson: Preludes and Etudes- 57.Oubradous, Fernand-Enseignement Complet du Basson: 3me Cahier-Whistler, Harvey S. 58.Pares, Gabriel-Daily Exercises and Scales for Bassoon- 59.Pares, Gabriel-Pares Scales for Bassoon- 60.Perle, George-Three Inventions- 61.Persichetti, Vincent-Parable- 62.Pezzi, Vincent ed.-Orchestra Studies for Bassoon from the Works of Peter I. Tchaikovsky- 63.Piard, Marius-16 Characteristic Studies- 64.Piard, Marius-Quatre-vingt 65.Prescott, Gerard R.-The Prescott Technic System for the Bassoon- 66.Presser, William-Partita for Bassoon- 67.Prunty, William-Five Sketches for Bassoon Solo-Kovar, Simon 68.Rnnes, Robert-Liten suite for unge fagottister- 69.Satzenhofer, J.-24 Studies- 70.Schoenbach, Sol ed.-20th Century Orchestra Studies-Mueller, Florian 71.Skornicka, J. E.-Rubank Elementary Method and Fingering Chart- 72.Smith, Linda -A Method for Bassoon-Boehm 73.Stadio, Ciro-Difficult Passages and "Solos"- 74.Strauss, Richard-Orchestral Excerpts from Symphonic Works-Batashov, K. 75.Taub, Bruce J.-Composition: Forme- 76.Terekhin, Roman Pavlovich-Etudes for Bassoon- 77.Uhl, Alfred-Fifteen Etudes-Voxman, H. 78.Van Beurden, Bernard-Music for Solo Bassoon- 79.Vaulet, Albert-Twenty Studies for Bassoon- 80.Vobaron, E.-32 Celebrated Melodies for Trombone- 81.Voxman, Himie-Rubank Advanced Method, Vol. 1 (and Fingering Chart)- 82.Voxman, Himie-Rubank Intermediate Method (and Fingering Chart)- 83.Weait, Christopher-Variations for Solo Bassoon- 84.Weait, Christopher-Bassoon Warm-ups 85.Weissenborn, Julius-Bassoon Studies, Op. 8, No. 1 for Beginners-Ambrosio, W. F. 86.Weissenborn, Julius-Bassoon Studies, Op. 8, No. 2 for Advanced Players- 87.Weissenborn, Julius-Method for Bassoon (with trill table and two fingering charts)- 88.Weissenborn, Julius-Practical Method for the Bassoon, including "Fifty Advanced Studies"- End of the list. http://idrs.colorado.edu/IDRSLib/IDRS.Lib.Holdings/idrscm2.htm and... MUSIC AND RECORDINGS New Music for Bassoon + Concerto for Bassoon and Orchestra (piccolo, flute, clarinet, bass trombone, timpani, percussion, harp, and strings) (3 movements, 15 minutes) By Stephen Paulson : This new and interesting concerto is now available on rental from Theodore Presser Co., Presser Place, Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. For a hearing, Mr. Paulson will mail a copy of his tape. The address is: 633 Averill Avenue, Rochester, New York 14607 + Concerto for Bassoon and Orchestra by David Amram Kenneth Pasmanick of Washington, D.C., has commissioned this work which is nearing completion. Pasmanick will perform and record the concerto soon after publication (probably Peters Edition. New York). Mr. Pasmanick has also commissioned another piece for bassoon and orchestra by the American composer, Robert Evett. When available, publisher or source will be listed. + Piece for Bassoon, Piano with Optional Voice By M. William Karlins. Available (rental?) from American Composers Alliance, New York. This piece was mentioned by Steve Basson, principal bassoonist of the Milwaukee Symphony. Mr. Basson notes that this is very good music and suitable for a recital program. + Dialoghi per Fagotto e Pianoforte: -By Miklos Kocsar (Published by Hungarian Government. Write Hans Riedel Musikalienhandlung, Uhlandstrasse 38, 1000 Berline 15, Germany.) Recommended by my friend, Alan Stout, composer at Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois, Mr. Stout also recommends an old piece, "Furchet Euch Nicht" by Ahle, a cantata for voices and four bassoons (in Denkmaler Deutscher Tonkunst. Vol. V. pp. 92-99). + "Chronicon" for Bassoon and Piano - By Joseph Schwantner (Published by Peters Edition. New York) This is an avant-garde work, not too difficult, employing two of the multiple sound effects mentioned in Bruno Bartelozzi's "New Sounds for Woodwinds" (Oxford University Press.) Boston Symphony Chamber Players (Sherman Walt, Bassoon) *Poulenc Trio *Haiff Duo *Villa-Lobos Bachianas-Brasileriras No. 6 (RCA LSC 6184) +Bassoon Solo Recital(Featuring George Zukerman) *Telemann F Minor Sonata *Galliard Sonata in F Major (compilation of movements from F Major and D Minor Suites) *Boismortier Suite in G Major (compilation from Sonatas) (CAMPI SCG 11.005. Italy) *Villa-Lobos Bachianas-Brasileriras No. 6 (RCA LSC 6184) Melos Ensemble of England (William Waterhouse, Bassoon) *Francaix Trio *Poulenc Duo *Boismortier Suite in G Major (compilation from Sonatas) (CAMPI SCG 11.005. Italy) *Francaix Divertimento for Bassoon and String Quintet (Angel 36586) http://idrs.colorado.edu/publications/TWBassoonist/TWB.V1.2/Music.Record .html > -----Original Message----- > From: John Pollock [SMTP:johnpollock@delphi.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 12:44 AM > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) > > Kim Flint wrote: > > > > Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on > earth.... > > Bad day at the office, Kim? > > > Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to > prove that > > one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? > There's no > > need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. > Learn from > > the differences, you might grow a little bit. > > 'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can > make > me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos > Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please! > > For that matter, point out the killer bassoon solo... > > > (and next time you want to make gross generalities about some group > or > > another, recall that you live in texas and there's no shortage of > good > > redneck jokes! :-) ) > > Seems to me there's a profound difference between generalizing about > instruments and generalizing about people. Motley was talking about > instruments. > > And there's scarcely a paucity of Californian jokes here in Texas... > (I'd put a smiley here, but that's not the way I feel right now.) > > > At 07:12 PM 8/11/97 -0500, Mikell D. Nelson wrote: > > >Ian///Shakespace wrote: > > >> A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's > abilities as a > > >> guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you > hone > > >> through practice. ... I really don't see a difference between a > guitarist > > practicing his > > >> craft and a DJ practicing his. ... a DJ is grafting, adding > elements and > > >> removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming > may add or > > >> take away notes from a riff. > > > > > > Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that > > >doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock > can > > >pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample > into. > > >But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, > & > > >attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The > number of > > >options available for expression affects the power and > expressiveness of > > >the instrument or method. A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of > > >expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone. > > > Another way to say this is that if you don't play guitar but want > to > > >play like Alan Holdsworth, then you had better get started; it'll > be a > > >10 or 20 year journey if it's even attainable for you. However, > becoming > > >a great DJ might take a few months to a year and a half; again, if > you > > >have it in you. So... is there a difference in the activities > because > > >one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful, > > >expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music. > > > Another angle is that the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), > *that > > >someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the > same > > >choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice. > > > > > > On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that > some > > >instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why > are > > >there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other > instruments? > > >The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I > was > > >making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments > can > > >shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is > a > > >reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular > than > > >banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these > > >instruments. > > > > > >Look out... incoming... > > > > > >Motley > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________ > > Kim Flint 408-752-9284 > > Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com > > Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com > > -- > John Pollock > mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com > http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:29 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 08:11:56 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyIbz-00012g-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:11:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:02:13 -0400 (EDT) From: KILLINFO@aol.com Message-ID: <970812105654_143038046@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Resent-Message-ID: <"xxAB5D.A.Xg.vuH8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/175 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:11:55 -0700 X-UIDL: 7283b72c13b133b0ad5081d59d394d5b To David Kirkdorffer, Looking for something extreme in terms of signal processing? One suggestion and a favorite toy of mine is a Ring Modulator (in my case a old EH Frequency Analyzer). Numerous companies have made these in the past, Electro Harmonix, Oberheim, Musitronics, Colorsound, etc. The effect is a little hard to describe, but it can render most instruments unrecognizeable to the unprepared listener. What it does is take an incoming audio signal and creates an entirely new signal (or signals) based on the mathmatical sum (and/or difference) between the original signal's frequency and the frequency of an adjustable internal oscillator. To get a primitive idea of this, try whistling some notes while at the same time trying to hum some totally different ones. Depending on the mix of wet and dry this effect can range between a subtle irritating distortion to something that transforms most sounds into the sound church bells, whale songs, radio static, theremin, Mongolian throat singers, and God knows what else. Beware however of multi-effects processors that claim to offer this effect. It's usually a "faux" effect that is really just extreme flanging in many cases. There is no mistaking the real thing when you hear it. Its one of those effects that has the potential to be so down right UGLY that it's beautiful. Works great on instruments, vocals and loops. Ted Killian From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:48 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:15:44 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNLt-0001HV-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:15:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122010.NAA21496@apple.com> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 15:12:55 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"UC0N.A.Sr.NNM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/193 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:15:37 -0700 X-UIDL: 116298f56d727ee52dccdd135b7db807 >On the subject of a hierarchy of expressive instruments: > >I'd rather hear Gary Burton on vibes (considered by some of you to be >less expressive than guitar/sax/etc.) than another bad imitation of >Jimmy Page on guitar or that awful sax player who couldn't even play >in tune with that mediocre lite jazz band I saw several years ago. I don't think anyone can argue with statements such as "I'd rather hear a really good musician on one instrument than a really bad one on another". It might be more interesting to compare musicians at the top of the skill spectrum, rather than at opposing ends. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:50 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:19:23 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNPS-0001jN-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:19:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122013.NAA35228@apple.com> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 15:15:53 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"aeFb8.A.M_.6PM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/195 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:19:18 -0700 X-UIDL: 06a264caa5be3d1fb9604433c53e6234 >> A "solo" in pop-derived music (including for this purpose, jazz) usually >> refers to something composed by the instrumentalist, usually in some >> semblance of realtime. In a live context (to kill the topic of >> punch-in's or comp'ed performances), it's usually improvised, perhaps >> using previous improvisations as a guide or starting place. Following >> the jazz tradition, I would say that in it's purest sense, the "solo" >> within pop music is different each time. >> >> I think a good case can also be made that most "solos" in pop-music are >> ego-driven displays, designed to cut heads, or earn the Blow Job (as >> Zappa said). To deny this is noble, but inaccurate. >> >> Travis > >I am not an expert on classical music, but most of the descriptive >literature >(liner notes, critiques, etc.) I've read on Western classical music >use the word "solo" to refer to a melody line that highlights a particular >instrument during a particular piece. For example (paraphrased from >memory): "Here in the 14th measure, the flute _solo_ evokes..." >A solo is a solo whether it is improvised or not. > >After all, there are quite a number of solos from the jazz genre that >are precomposed (e.g. works from Duke Ellington, the guy who wrote >"Powerhouse", "The Penguin", and other tunes that show up in Bug Bunny >cartoons; others). > >Heck, even in pop a lot of solos are precomposed. Yes, but pre-composed in the sense that the composer and the performer are often the same person. The solo may have been "composed" through multiple takes, keeping the parts that worked, perhaps incorporating the suggestions of band members, producers etc, but not by writing notes on a staff, the way that classical music "composes" solos. Think about the amazing amount of attention that guitarists pay to solos--why is that? In pop music, a solo may only occupy 10% of a song. 90% of the time a guitarist is playing rhythm--why so much energy spent on considering solos? Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:33 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 08:20:23 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyIkA-0001mR-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:20:22 -0700 Message-ID: <33F07E5C.DB4EF8D6@wsdesigns.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:16:44 -0700 From: Warren Sirota Reply-To: wsirota@wsdesigns.com Organization: WS Designs X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: DJs must really be threatening to some people... X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ml3YxD.A.PVB.R5H8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/177 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:20:23 -0700 X-UIDL: 5dd4aba82c8e31454f8620f8c97370a6 The one common thread that I see in this discussion is the reluctance of many people to knight DJs with the term "musician." This reminds me of the early days of sequencing, when the debate was whether someone who step-entered music (or even quantized a performance!) was really a musician - not to mention those who created algorithmic music by programming. There's room enough for everyone. Whether or not you call someone a "musician" makes not a whit of difference, except to your own ego. From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:52 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:28:58 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNYm-0002w6-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:28:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122024.NAA20622@apple.com> Subject: Re: Travis' comments: Cream et. al. Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 15:26:22 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"I-gzjD.A.3MC.tZM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/198 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:28:56 -0700 X-UIDL: dc08c922db866e35ec96c66262b362cf >Travis said: > >> Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the >> same way that Cream records are? >Interesting question. Probably not, but I think that has more to do with >timing than anything else. Remember when it was possible to stay aware >of most major rock releases and even to buy a good proportion of them >(at least when you include your friends)? That's when Disraeli Gears >came out. By the time the Art of Noise came out, the record title glut >was well underway. Regardless of relative merits, but this gave the >Cream record a far higher historical visibility. Yes, but I think there should still be a "canon" of important synthesizer/sequencer-based records developing. Again, I'd love for keyboard players on the list to suggest some titles. Take "Switched On Bach"--the historical importance of this can't be denied, but does anyone actually listen to it anymore? What are the significant albums that are of lasting enjoyment? I'm always up for someone's recommendations for music that changed their life, so please share. If you're a musician who doesn't use guitar as your primary instrument, please speak up with your recommendations. > >> No instrument can do everything. It is not an admission of weakness or a >> lack of vision to concede this. > >Well put. > >> Why is it that it's "Guitar *Player* Magzine", and "Bass *Player* >> Magazine", and then "Keyboard Magazine"? Why no "Keyboard *Player* >> Magazine"? > >I don't know. You must have a theory and expect us to understand >implicitly what that is by now, but it's a mystery to me. I'm not entirely sure. I was hoping that you, Warren, would have some insight, since I think you've written for two of the three mentioned. My off the cuff theory would be that the focus in GP and BP is on players, and in KB, the machinery. The advent of MIDI made things so much more complicated that I could see a sizable market for a magazine that did nothing other than evaluate gear in an intelligent manner. I used to read KB regularly, and my recollection was that there was much more discussion of programming and sequencing software, and keeping the trainset running than appeared in GP at the time. Given the complexity of say, getting Cakewalk to sync to tape and controll three modules and a drum machine versus getting a crunchy rhythm tone on a Super Plexi, this makes sense to me. It also seemed strange to me, though, that the average reader's letter to the editor in KB was about five times longer than those in GP, and a thousand times more intelligent than those in Guitar World (sample: "Dood--Yngwie fucking rules. Steve Vai isn't fit to carry his Marshall. Singed, The Xterminator"). Again, the off the cuff theory was that KB letter writers were, uh, more thoughtful than their GP counterparts. The letters seemed to be of a more philsophical bend, but the actual articles didn't seem to carry this non-gear orientation. I do remember loving Freff's column, which always seemed sort of out of place (my apologies at this point to all of you who haven't been following the state of MI journalism for the last fifteen years--this probably seems needlessly obscure). That said, GP seems to have been dumbed down in recent years, reflecting the declining interest in the technical aspects of guitar playing in pop music. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:54 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:34:01 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNdf-0003VO-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:33:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122027.NAA25786@apple.com> Subject: RE: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 15:30:05 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "David Kirkdorffer" cc: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"doVJ.A.XqC.adM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/200 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:33:59 -0700 X-UIDL: 9a69ad29379b783c6898801c552ed035 >Travis - I tried the bass synth a few months ago and felt it was just >lots of the same sound with slightly different clothes on. Maybe I >should give the thing another try! > >Thanks for the tip. I got the same impression the first time I heard our bassist try it out. I had to sit with it for a half hour, cranking the knobs every which way to try and get a feel for what it could do. My impression was that it could do about three sounds with different variations on each. Again, I was playing just a guitar straight into it, into an amp set either clean or distorted. I'm positive that if I used it with my rig, I could get all sorts of truly wonderful things (particularly with some sort of compression/sustain in front of the unit, driving a Whammy Pedal). Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:12 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 15:33:59 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyPVm-00061A-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:33:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122229.PAA16960@apple.com> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 17:31:55 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"on7iUC.A.bOF.hPO8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/210 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:33:58 -0700 X-UIDL: 86895ae2952b69cd88a6aba650bd8bbe >> >On the subject of a hierarchy of expressive instruments: >> > >> >I'd rather hear Gary Burton on vibes (considered by some of you to be >> >less expressive than guitar/sax/etc.) than another bad imitation of >> >Jimmy Page on guitar or that awful sax player who couldn't even play >> >in tune with that mediocre lite jazz band I saw several years ago. >> >> I don't think anyone can argue with statements such as "I'd rather hear a >> really good musician on one instrument than a really bad one on another". > >Well, folks here have been discussing the relative merits of instruments >in terms of absolutes; which left me a lot of leverage. ^_^ > >> It might be more interesting to compare musicians at the top of the skill >> spectrum, rather than at opposing ends. > >Here I must respectfully bow out. I don't see how anything is to be >gained discussing, for example, why Pat Metheny is a more expressive soloist >than Gary Burton because his instrument is "inherently more expressive". >I'd rather not go there myself. Actually, I think there's a lot to be gained, because I think it's easy to find consensus on the statement "Pat Metheny and Gary Burton are equally expressive, despite the limitations of their respective instruments", yet there's much criticism of various electronic instruments and effects processors because of some niggling feature that isn't present, be it 24-bit resolution, velocity sensitivity, only 8 seconds of sampling time, the inability to map all paramenters to CV controllers, etc. This list, and the MI in general, spend a great deal of time discussing the technological aspects of instruments and music. All variety of equipment is criticized because of some perceived terminal flaw. Look at the piano--no pitch bending, only one sound, doesn't stay in tune, no aftertouch sensitivity, no doubling of pitches--it's full of limitations which would sink a synth, particularly if it cost $8k and weighed 500 pounds. If we can agree that Gary Burton might be able to get some meaningful work done with an instrument as woeful and feature-poor as the vibes, perhaps the rest of us might be able to make some headway with whatever we have, despite the inability to, say, have three concurrent loops of different length playing back at the same time. Even if we're playing a synthesizer. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:13 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 15:46:48 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyPiA-0007GF-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:46:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122243.PAA32522@apple.com> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 17:45:57 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"QbXmRC.A.0fG.fcO8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/211 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:46:46 -0700 X-UIDL: fba1cf8be2e63b574f64533fb3e3fc03 >> Yes, but pre-composed in the sense that the composer and the performer >> are often the same person. The solo may have been "composed" through >> multiple takes, keeping the parts that worked, perhaps incorporating the >> suggestions of band members, producers etc, but not by writing notes on a >> staff, the way that classical music "composes" solos. > >But the end result is the same. The solo ends up set in stone, to be >recited in an identical manner with each new performance of the music >whether it be a pop song or a classical piece. With a few exceptions >(there are always exceptions) the solo does not change. This contradicts >your earlier assertion that the pop solo always changes. In my experience, the converse is true. Except for things such as the first solo in Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb", solos (and I suppose that I'm speaking of guitar solos at this point, since I haven't been able to recall a significant number of keyboard solos in pop/rock) are winged each time. Maybe they start the same, or there's an ending lick that it moves towards, but usually not. One of the things that I, and the guitarists that I've run into look forward to in a solo is the chance to make something new on the spot. > >> Think about the amazing amount of attention that guitarists pay to >> solos--why is that? In pop music, a solo may only occupy 10% of a song. >> 90% of the time a guitarist is playing rhythm--why so much energy spent >> on considering solos? > >Is this truly unique to guitar players? How about sax players, keyboardists, >and other soloing musicians. > I don't know. The soloing role in pop music seems to be so completely dominated by guitar, particularly electric guitar, that asking the horn players what their take is will almost certainly lead you into the jazz field. In addition, horn players can't play chords (by themselves), but my impression of the jazz world is that solos are still the acid test. Pop (non-jazz) keyboard players, on the other hand...I don't know. I was hoping that some keyboard players (those who view keyboards as their primary instrument) would speak up regarding this. Kim, as always, is quick to defend non-guitar music from the Six String Klan, but I think even he is more of a guitarist than a keyboard player. Someone, I believe it was Kim, said that he enjoyed the more ego-free attitude in dance/electronic music, and while I'm opposed to excessive ego in any field, I've never been entirely convinced of the stance of synth humility. The whole "all solos are masturbatory, boring and needless" is as groundless as "all dance music is boring, repititive and needless". I'd prefer that guitarists have less self-importance, and keyboard players have more, to reach a happy mean. Although, as far as I can tell, the Age of Shred has been gone for some years now, and the guitarist who wishes to flount his technical ability needs to go to the independent labels that cater to metal. Please, keyboard players, speak up. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 10:59:35 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 10:56:22 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyLB7-0003KL-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:56:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:52:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Kim Corbet Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) To: "Mikell D. Nelson" cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com In-Reply-To: <33EFAA5A.107F@dmans.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CpkFn.A.YtC.hLK8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/179 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:56:21 -0700 X-UIDL: 4ea69ff4b85d3142d093259d9d4567c7 > So... is there a difference in (guitaring v. djing) because > one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful, > expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music. > ...the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), *that > someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the same > choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice. .......(Hiya, Slashboy)...'scuse me...Uh, I agree that whatever takes the most "discipline and dedication" is going to give rise to more depth and expressiveness. However, I have to agree that there's no significant difference between the media, whether it be instrumental goddom or technical technique with pre-recorded stuff...so that if our hypothetical DJ with the aforementioned "d and d" for, say, the same 20 years some like-talented picker is slaving over a hot amp, the expressive result should be roughly the same. They are both masters of their craft. They are simply using different tools to let it out. To say they're fundamentally different is to say one instrument is inherently more capable of deeper expression...which brings us to... > Why are there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other > instruments? .............the actual reason there are more of these solos is far more historical than according to any sort of "natural selection". Alot of it, I suppose, originally had to do with the acoustics of unamplified concerts/rituals/ceremonies. These traditional soprano and tenor instruments have long been used by composers in church and concert settings for their ability to sing over the texture, therefore attracting the efforts of those with enough talent and ego to handle the solo demands. Obviously, guitar is very new to the list, only since the advent of amplification has it REALLY stepped forward as a powerful solo instrument. Before that, it was used more as rhythmic accompaniment for solo voice. Now that technology has allowed other instruments to carry the larger expressive role, there is (and will be) more variety in timbre and texture. Oh, sure, there will always more "popular" instruments and, not to completely contradict your earlier premise, but it's the very ease of getting started with such instruments as the guitar and tenor sax (with the abundance of remarkable practitioners to be inspired by) that leads so many future talents down the same road. I could make the case, given the relative newness of the dj craft and the lack of traditions to fall into (without decades to hundreds of years of examples to draw on), that it's MORE difficult to DJ than it is to squeeze out fancy butt guitar. You may be surprised by what some of these guys are capable of in the not too distant future. There're already very hot examples if you're interested in seeking them out. Take a peek at Kitchens of Distinction and their use of hip-hop sampling techniques. If an artist chooses a sampler over the guitar or trombone, is he/she defacto any LESS capable or inspired? (personal note...thanks for babysitting my gear, boy...when's the next R+R gig we can settle up on?) From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:24 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:24:41 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQIq-0002nz-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122319.QAA10436@apple.com> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 18:22:12 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"dCxpcD.A.UMC.s-O8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/216 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:24:40 -0700 X-UIDL: 527b70fe3088a3e08677e01b66cf3112 >> >> Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the >> >> same way that Cream records are? >> > >> >Only if there's any justice left. >> >> Don't bet on it. Influential as Art of Noise has been on people who own >> and/or operatate synthesizers, I think they may end up in the category of >> "Historical Significance Only". I mean, I think that the third Peter >> Gabriel album (with the melting face cover, includes "Games Without >> Frontiers" and "Biko") is ENORMOUSLY influential, enjoyable and worthy of >> praise, but I'm astounded at the number of people, even musicians with a >> stated interest in unusual, electronic pop music, who are unaware of or >> indifferent to it. If nothing else, this is the album that >> singlehandedly introduced the gated reverb drum sound to the world, but >> it doesn't really matter in the end. Civilians hear it and say >> "Nice...but I prefer 'So'." > >Try applying this logic to Cream. How many "civilians" have ever >really listened to Robert Johnson? All Cream did was electrify >someone else's music. It was enormously successful and popular, and >for good reason. That just shows that success is no measure of >creativity or innovation, much less musical power. I suppose this is a reference to Cream's versions of "Crossroads" (Robert Johnson, the live Cream version is often described [not by me] as the greatest rock electric guitar solo, ever), and of "Spoonfull" (Willy Dixon). I believe that Cream's lasting impact stems more from "Sunshine Of Your Love", "White Room", "Strange Brew" (yes, the solo is ripped off from Albert King), "Tales Of Brave Ulysses", and "Badge". All of those songs were written by Cream (and George Harrison, on "Badge"). Cream's other historical note is that they brought Eric Clapton's instrumental prowess to the attention of the world at large (previously, the Mayall Bluesbreakers were a cult band at best), and legitimized the concept of jamming onstage, in a rock context. So many rock guitarists have cited Clapton's work in Cream as a major influence that I think it's grossly inaccurate to say that "all they did was electrify someone else's music". Additionally, Cream sparked a backlash against the idea of the heavily amplified band, endlessly jamming. Clapton himself has said that he read a review of the the Band's first, acoustic based album, and realised in that moment that the concept of Cream was dead. He quits, and puts out his first solo album, where he plays down the Marshall bombast that he instigated. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:25 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:29:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQNo-0003KD-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:29:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122326.QAA26744@apple.com> Subject: Keyboards Uber Alles! (was Travis' Annoying Thread) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 18:28:23 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"uT63SD.A.ExC.TEP8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/217 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:29:48 -0700 X-UIDL: 1cdff7eabb8dd989abcce777ed40def4 I respond to Kim Flint's welcome contribution: >>> Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard >>> heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? > >Why is it, that in traditional african percussion ensembles, there is an >acute shortage of tenor sax players? Ah, but keyboards are common in rock bands, whereas tenor saxes are rare on the continent of Africa. Unless you're trying to say that part of the definition of a "rock band" is the presence of guitars, and the absence of keyboards, but I don't think that's what you're trying to say. > >Yet again, I have to wonder why some of you feel such an overwhelming need >to prove that guitars (or bassoons, or whatever) are somehow so much better >than other instruments. What purpose would proving that serve? They all do >different things, and can make wonderful contributions in different >contexts. Take the blinders off and enjoy it all. I'm not trying to prove that guitars are better than other instruments. All sensible people recognized that position is naturally occupied by the banjo. Seriously, what I'm wondering about is why does the guitar get pushed into the role of soloist within pop/rock music, almost to the exclusion of other instruments. > >>How >>> many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by something >>> with a piano-keyboard interface? >> >>Keith Emerson? >>Hell, he even smashes the keyboard up at the end of the gig! > >Little Richard >Jerry Lee Lewis >Booker T >Elton John >Billy Joel >Bernie Worell >Kate Bush >Tori Amos >Trent Reznor Noteworthy as all of the above artists are, I was looking for examples of specific solos, not just a list of admirable musicians who play keyboards. I'm not denying that these examples exist, I'm just looking for someone to point them out to me. Offhand, I don't recall Kate Bush or Tori Amos ever stepping out on the 88's, and the only thing that pops to mind for Reznor is that track off of Pretty Hate Machine with the refrain of "Maybe I'm all messed up in you". > >If there is a shortage of keyboard soloing in rock music, it's probably >because egomaniacal keyboard players gravitate towards being concert >pianists, or maybe jazz. Egomaniacal guitarists end up being yngwie >malmsteen. Role models for the self-obsessed appear in different places, >apparently. The team player/band member/song writer sort of piano player is >more likely to be the one that wants to play in a rock band. A damn good >thing, because I'd hate to see the rock band with John Tesh in it. And I don't think that soloing is by its nature, egomanical. Ego mania is ego mania, but I don't think that the act of soloing is ego manical by default. I view the solo as the opportunity for the musician to stand up and say "everyone listen--I'm going to try something here, and it may be interesting". Soloing can provide the opportunity to extend and expand the harmonic and melodic direction of the piece, as needed, as appropriate, in a way that the vocalist (the default audience focus in pop) cannot. The solo spot, composed or improvised, is also a way to vary the dynamic mood of the piece, and can, at its best, provide an opportunity for the instrumentalist to transcend themselves, and take the willing audience with them. Naturally, this position can, and has often been abused. > >One of the refreshing things about the electronic/dance scene is the >tendancy towards humility. In fact, many of the "heroes" go to length to >downplay themselves, which is probably why they are not so well known. >Having the urge to be the star and parade around in front of everybody is >not necessarily the same as being creative, or expressing oneself, or just >having a good time making music. Nor is the "urge to be the star" necessarily the same as playing a solo. It's not required that the soloist provide a serious of dramatic motions and expressions in the course of the solo. Again, the role of soloist has great potential for abuse. > Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:26 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:34:04 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQRr-0003mD-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:33:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122328.QAA34304@apple.com> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 18:31:08 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"69y0IC.A.MCD.8GP8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/218 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:33:59 -0700 X-UIDL: 07d0109b6d62d7a2273463d42cf47174 >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. >> >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. >> Dave >> >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. >An amazing piece. > Doug Michael Now I'm confused--is the ELP piece actually called "Eruption"? Is this, and the UK piece, considered a piece of music so influential to the keyboard world that teenagers play it to the considerable annoyance of music shop staff, family, and neighbors, or are these just pieces that you're pointing out as noteworthy keyboard statements that you personally enjoy? Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 12:01:01 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 11:57:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyM87-0001BS-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:57:19 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708121852.LAA15371@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:52:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708121817.LAA29030@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 01:20:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r7fHrB.A.cs.wDL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/182 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:57:19 -0700 X-UIDL: d2543ee49bb8aa527293b3ca8b0c28da > >International Double Reed Society > >Library Holdings - Music: Solo Bassoon > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >The following is music for Solo Bassoon. The entries in this list are > >sorted by Composer. > > (long list of works deleted) > > I think John P. may have (and if not, I am) been referring not to works > written for unaccompanied bassoon, or featuring the bassoon, but rather > spontaneous realtime composition and performance over a pre-decided > backing, i.e., a hot bassoon solo in the pop music sense. All John requested was "Point out a killer bassoon solo" to which Dave complied. Sorry to nitpick but he didn't specify a pop music context. Even if he did, does it really matter? A killer bassoon solo is a killer solo regardles of genre. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:30 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 17:12:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyR3W-0007QK-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:12:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199708130009.RAA12970@apple.com> Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 19:11:26 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"fiEVkB.A.MmG.1sP8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/222 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:12:54 -0700 X-UIDL: 0e64697535e2632e20192ac32bf37f2c In response to Dave Stagner: >Guitar is the driving instrument of rock music. If you switch genres, >say to jazz or classical, guitar is not held in the same regard. In >jazz, the guitarist is the guy who has to switch to a one-chord vamp >for his solo because he can't play changes. Bleh. In non-fusion Jazz, the guitarist is usually denied the option of distortion, the primary method of imparting sustain upon a sustain-poor instrument. It's my contention that the ability to impart a voice-(as in the human voice)like quality to the sound is very, very desirable in a instrument being deployed in the soloist role. The ability to hold, bend, and modulate a note touches people deeply, hence the violin, saxaphone, trumpet, distorted electric guitar's dominance of this role, in pop music. If you've got an instrument that doesn't sustain, once you've played your note, you're sort of pressed into playing another...quickly. The pianist can't just sit on a note for four bars, whereas the above instruments can. > >When Bill Frisell is praised in jazz circles, he's compared to >Thelonius Monk, not Jim Hall or Wes Montgomery or Charlie Christian. >Keyboardists and horn players dominate jazz. Electric guitars just >gave us fusion. My impression is that in jazz, the role of soloist is dominated by horn players, particularly trumpet and sax. Interviews I've seen with jazz guitarists usually mention their desire for the chordal abilities of pianists, and the expressiveness of the horn player. Also, I don't think that Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery or Charlie Christian were playing one-chord vamps while the other guy took a chorus. > >Here's an experiment for all of you who think the guitar is such a >be-all solo intrument... try tuning to EADGCF for a few weeks. >Straight fourths across the fretboard. You'll soon realize how much >you've been letting the instrument play you, rather than the other way >around. All those blues licks that infect your vocabulary will fall >apart when they can no longer be played in one position. Stick with >it, and you'll soon learn the harmonic advantages of this tuning, >advantages the much-maligned keyboardists have always enjoyed. Patterns and stale licks are possible in any tuning. As someone who plays in CGDAEG, and who played in EADGBE for a decade, I'll tell you that all tunings have their pros and cons, and if you were a hack in Standard, you'll be a hack in any tuning until you decide to change the way you play. And, I'd say that the layout of the piano keyboard strongly encourages you to play in C. Straight fourths, or fifths or whatever you pick are much more logical that the black and white key combo on a piano. No tuning is perfect for any one role, and the limitations you may find are more likely limitations in yourself, not the instrument. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:38 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:24:29 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMYN-0003az-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:24:27 -0700 Message-Id: <2684.199708121920@eestud1.elec> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:20:19 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Hughes To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8sPCFC.A.m6C.AdL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/184 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:24:27 -0700 X-UIDL: aa4badc44dbf415c4b96f8131ef5bcd0 > Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard > heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? How > many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by something > with a piano-keyboard interface? Keith Emerson? Hell, he even smashes the keyboard up at the end of the gig! Failing that, no. there's a limit to how cool you can look sitting down, and no, upright controllers don't count. Fave kbd solo in a rock song? "Incommunicado", Marillion. > Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the > same way that Cream records are? Only if there's any justice left. Michael (sig on holiday) From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:39 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:44:04 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMrD-0005gC-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:43:55 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708121937.MAA15665@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:37:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708121906.MAA25648@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 02:08:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jmn2MB.A.clE.AuL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/185 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:43:55 -0700 X-UIDL: af8035f40626226d700e295bcda286c2 > >> I think John P. may have (and if not, I am) been referring not to works > >> written for unaccompanied bassoon, or featuring the bassoon, but rather > >> spontaneous realtime composition and performance over a pre-decided > >> backing, i.e., a hot bassoon solo in the pop music sense. > > > >All John requested was "Point out a killer bassoon solo" to which > >Dave complied. Sorry to nitpick but he didn't specify a pop music > >context. > > > >Even if he did, does it really matter? A killer bassoon solo is a killer > >solo regardles of genre. > > The definition of a "solo" varies by genre. A "solo" in the classical > music genre most often refers to a precomposed (by someone other than the > instrumentalist) section of music. I believe a cadenza is the term for > an improvised solo performance, but I think that this is usually > unaccompanied, and occurs at the beginning or end of a composed piece. > > A "solo" in pop-derived music (including for this purpose, jazz) usually > refers to something composed by the instrumentalist, usually in some > semblance of realtime. In a live context (to kill the topic of > punch-in's or comp'ed performances), it's usually improvised, perhaps > using previous improvisations as a guide or starting place. Following > the jazz tradition, I would say that in it's purest sense, the "solo" > within pop music is different each time. > > I think a good case can also be made that most "solos" in pop-music are > ego-driven displays, designed to cut heads, or earn the Blow Job (as > Zappa said). To deny this is noble, but inaccurate. > > Travis I am not an expert on classical music, but most of the descriptive literature (liner notes, critiques, etc.) I've read on Western classical music use the word "solo" to refer to a melody line that highlights a particular instrument during a particular piece. For example (paraphrased from memory): "Here in the 14th measure, the flute _solo_ evokes..." A solo is a solo whether it is improvised or not. After all, there are quite a number of solos from the jazz genre that are precomposed (e.g. works from Duke Ellington, the guy who wrote "Powerhouse", "The Penguin", and other tunes that show up in Bug Bunny cartoons; others). Heck, even in pop a lot of solos are precomposed. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:40 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:47:57 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMv3-0006AP-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:47:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:40:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) In-Reply-To: <1060.199708120905@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Mn8Sw.A.-6E.4wL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/187 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:47:53 -0700 X-UIDL: b70446aa73ed518f84fc781b7ff07929 On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD wrote: > Yes, but a guitarst on his own is pretty imited. There aren't many solo > electric guitar peices worth listening to. A DJ can tale the sounds of an > orchestra, a funk band and NY art-scronk and come up with something > huge-sounding. People playing musical instruments will always need to use > other players to fill out the sound - drummers, bassists, thumb-pianists... > which is almost what the DJ is doing. I don't think the point of playing with other musicians is to fill out MY sound. Although I'm sure it wasn't your intent, it does come close to another branch of guitar arrogance... the idea that the "rhythm section" is there to provide a beat for the guitarist to jack off over. That's just dull to me. I play guitar by myself most of the time, out of pragmatism. A big reason for looping is to be able to accompany yourself. When I play with other musicians, it is for *collaboration*, not support. I play differently in response to the musicians I am playing with. If all that matters is a full sound, then I should play the same with any random drummer. But I don't. I play differently with every drummer, depending on how each one approaches the beat, makes tone, creates fills, etc. In other words, I play with other musicians in order to create music I cannot create on my own... not for lack of "fill", but for lack of the intellectual stimulation of other artists. > > A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of > > expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone. > > A saxophone cannot sound as delicate and childlike as a thumb piano. Each instrument expresses things other instruments cannot express. And a good musician can express unique music on ANY instrument. Forget the snobbery of "expressiveness", and look at the capabilities and limitations of the instrument. A thumb piano can play chords. A sax cannot. A sax can vary notes dynamically. A thumb piano cannot. Each has its own tone and capabilities. Must we debate which is "better"? There is so much music to express... use the instruments needed to express it! -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:45 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:48:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMvH-0006Ce-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:48:07 -0700 Message-ID: <33F0BC44.59BE@gte.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:40:52 -0400 From: future perfect Reply-To: artmusic@gte.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) References: <2684.199708121920@eestud1.elec> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"p4WWZ.A.iAF.hxL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/188 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:48:07 -0700 X-UIDL: ee37b422fda99ff6c68ae62f52ceadcd Michael Hughes wrote: > > > Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard > > heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? Rick Wakeman Jon Lord Tony Banks Jan Hammer -- ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 "Nothing worthwhile is achieved suddenly" -Robert Fripp From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:45 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:48:48 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMvs-0006HI-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:48:44 -0700 Message-ID: <33F0BC7D.73D7@wsdesigns.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:41:49 -0700 From: Warren Sirota Reply-To: wsirota@wsdesigns.com Organization: WS Designs X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Travis' comments: Cream et. al. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TnUc9D.A.MDF.yxL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/189 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:48:44 -0700 X-UIDL: 05a0f27b6258167ced5889fd2fbd589e Travis said: > Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the > same way that Cream records are? Interesting question. Probably not, but I think that has more to do with timing than anything else. Remember when it was possible to stay aware of most major rock releases and even to buy a good proportion of them (at least when you include your friends)? That's when Disraeli Gears came out. By the time the Art of Noise came out, the record title glut was well underway. Regardless of relative merits, but this gave the Cream record a far higher historical visibility. > No instrument can do everything. It is not an admission of weakness or a > lack of vision to concede this. Well put. > Why is it that it's "Guitar *Player* Magzine", and "Bass *Player* > Magazine", and then "Keyboard Magazine"? Why no "Keyboard *Player* > Magazine"? I don't know. You must have a theory and expect us to understand implicitly what that is by now, but it's a mystery to me. > Do you suspect that I'm a Guitar Bigot, or just trying to cause trouble? I would prefer the latter, given a choice. -- Yours truly, Warren Sirota aka "Mr. Cozmik Perspektiv" musician, programmer, writer http://wsdesigns.com/wsirota From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:46 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:51:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMyb-0006e2-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:51:33 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708121944.MAA15720@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:44:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708121810.LAA21348@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 01:12:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SdEosB.A.jdF.-0L8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/190 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:51:33 -0700 X-UIDL: fcde7e0a48f04613d1efb38b9cdf120d On the subject of a hierarchy of expressive instruments: I'd rather hear Gary Burton on vibes (considered by some of you to be less expressive than guitar/sax/etc.) than another bad imitation of Jimmy Page on guitar or that awful sax player who couldn't even play in tune with that mediocre lite jazz band I saw several years ago. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:32 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 17:47:48 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyRbG-0002Mo-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:47:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199708130044.RAA29118@apple.com> Subject: Re: I just can't stop writing today... Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 19:46:46 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"dqi21.A.P7B.vNQ8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/224 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:47:46 -0700 X-UIDL: d99ad410fd6b28b2933005db2686727c I respond to Warren Sirota: >> >> > Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard >> >> > heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? >> How >> > many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by >> something >> > with a piano-keyboard interface? > >Well, gee, doesn't anyone here listen to jazz? Art Tatum? Bill Evans? >Fats Waller? Keith Jarrett? Herbie Hancock? Oscar Peterson? There's >plenty of breathtaking stuff there. This does beg the question of why >there's such a paucity of great *rock* keyboard as compared to great >jazz keyboard. Yes, I was hoping someone would answer that question, but I didn't want to ask it. Again, where are the keyboardists on this list? > >Oh, maybe you mean, "why aren't there any great *synthesizer* solos?" >That's easy. Synthesizers suck. (just kidding - they don't suck totally. >but there are many, many ways in which they truly suck.) Many, many, many. And it's baffling--the idea is so great, but much as I love and use synths, any individual model of synth seems to fall short of analog instruments (I can hear the artillery fire already). They don't hold their value, they don't hold people's interest. Synths don't seem to produce a sound which is complex enough to be fascinating over the course of years. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the problems stem from the trend of using synthesizers to remove the "difficult" parts of making music. A keyboard synthesizer makes it very easy to play a note--just press down the key and hold it. Anyone can do it. The same isn't true of a violin, trumpet or guitar (and with an electric guitar feeding a high-gain amp, there's not inconsiderable technique required to play a rest). I think one of the sad truths of life is that if it's easy, it's probably not worth much. Likewise, a sequencer, while being a really great tool which I use all the time, also makes it very easy to generate a lot of tidy sonic information, in time and everything, without being able to play in real time. While many people would like to believe that a Mozart dwells within each of us, and that it's only our clumsiness that prevents beautiful music from pouring out, I don't think that's the case. Just because someone can type, doesn't mean they can write well, and such is the case with music--the ability to sequence doesn't mean that you're producing good music. However, for years now, keyboards and sequencing software have been sold, often using sales pitches along the lines of "beautiful sounds, right out of the box", and "write music you couldn't perform in real time". It's been long enough now that a generation of "keyboard players" have come up who, uh, can't play very well. You can have all sorts of fun by yourself with sequencers, but if you can't interact in real time with other musicians, or before an audience, you might want to seriously re-examine your position. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:47 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:07:43 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNEC-0000Rm-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:07:40 -0700 Message-ID: <33F0C19F.7963@gte.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:03:43 -0400 From: future perfect Reply-To: artmusic@gte.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) References: <199708121942.MAA05168@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Jkt62.A.gC.zGM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/192 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:07:40 -0700 X-UIDL: b522d3e7c8476e0ead4d9573082b3846 > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. Dave -- ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 "Nothing worthwhile is achieved suddenly" -Robert Fripp From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:41 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 18:08:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyRvN-0003hr-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:08:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199708130104.SAA08652@apple.com> Subject: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars Good, Keboards bad) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:06:44 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"8BhdP.A.aJD.tgQ8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/225 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:08:33 -0700 X-UIDL: 14cdfdabe378a6afd0dd72c0d9f8d871 I respond to Paolo Valladolid: >> >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded >> >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the >> >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. > >"changed the way the instrument... would be viewed..." > >This only applies to keyboard players. > >Just like "Eruption" changed the way the guitar is viewed... only in the >view of guitarists for the most part. Is "Eruption" of any significance >at all to, say, drummers, or sax players? How about music lovers who >don't play any instruments? > >My guess is "No" for both questions. What I was trying to say was, yes, only for guitarists, and I suppose electric guitarists. I don't think (and I'm not a big Van Halen fan, so this isn't Eddy worship) that the importance of "Eruption" can be overstated from that perspective. It's repeatedly cited as a standout moment in the history of the electric guitar (which is almost the history of electric rock guitar). In the same way that Hendrix' "Star Spangled Banner" changed the way people thought of the instrument (although I suppose SSB was just the capstone of the whole Hendrix revolution--the electric guitar as a instrument related to, but seperate from the acoustic guitar, or amplified archtop), "Eruption" was a musical statement which changed the direction of the electric guitar for decades to come. Someone, I can't remember who, said that "Eruption" was the declaration that electric guitar was going to be difficult for now on, as opposed (I suppose) to the dominance of the blues-box soloing approach which had become so common throughout the '70's. For electric bassists, I believe that Jaco Pastorius' first solo album occupies a similar role. Acoustic guitarists might cite Leo Kottke's first album, "6 and 12 String Guitar". These moments do exist, and I'm trying to find out what the keyboard equivalents are. The guitar press frequently compiles lists of noteworthy albums and even solos--is there no equivalent in the keyboard world? > >> >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song >> >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. >> >> Dave >> >> >> >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. >> >An amazing piece. >> > Doug Michael >> >> Now I'm confused--is the ELP piece actually called "Eruption"? > >Come on Travis, you know better than that... ^_^ No, I'm dead serious. Although ELP wasn't one of my favorite prog bands of the '70's, I'm not familiar with the album cuts, only the AOR tracks. If it isn't on ELP's Greatest Hits, I haven't heard it. I also don't think that UK's music had the sort of widespread impact that I'm looking for here, without commenting on its merits. > >Just giving you a hard time, though I appreciate the Devil's Advocate >role you've assumed in these discussions (intentionally or not). > >> Is this, and the UK piece, considered a piece of music so influential to >> the keyboard world that teenagers play it to the considerable annoyance >> of music shop staff, family, and neighbors, or are these just pieces that >> you're pointing out as noteworthy keyboard statements that you personally >> enjoy? >> >> Travis > >Going back to your "Eruption" example for guitarists, I'd say that piece >is only influential to guitar players and even then only to those who >actually care for it. I just don't see guys like David Lindley or young >flamenco players giving two bits about "Eruption". I'm sure that Lindley is quite aware of Eruption, and probably can play around a bit with the two-handed technique. God knows, he can play stringed things with frets in just about any other way. Young flamenco players probably don't know or care, but in this discussion, I'm probably referring to electric guitarists from North America or Europe. Most of them don't give two bits about Paco de Lucia, but that doesn't deny his stature within the flamenco world. However, western pop music has found its way almost everywhere in the globe, flamenco has not, and I'm think that "Eruption" has had a direct or indirect effect on more people than Paco, be it through Van Halen's music itself, or the many, many players who were inspired by him. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:50 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:18:29 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNOZ-0001ch-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:18:23 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:12:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Malone X-Sender: malone@satie Reply-To: Sean Malone To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, stickwire-l@netcom.com Subject: Lexicon JamMan for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"M16z0B.A.My.QOM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/194 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:18:23 -0700 X-UIDL: c7e5f14a273284909e7dee68fec03c69 For Sale: Lexicon JamMan -Upgraded to 32 seconds of delay -2 footpedals -manual, power supply and cables asking $350, buyer pays shipping. Please respond privately sm From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:42 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 18:24:06 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wySAN-00056H-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:24:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199708130119.SAA32344@apple.com> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:21:56 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" , "Brandon Powell" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"-P8lc.A.rXE.-uQ8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/226 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:24:03 -0700 X-UIDL: 02f8a76501e058bf5cb6aa53ee277601 Paolo says: >> >But the end result is the same. The solo ends up set in stone, to be >> >recited in an identical manner with each new performance of the music >> >whether it be a pop song or a classical piece. With a few exceptions >> >(there are always exceptions) the solo does not change. This contradicts >> >your earlier assertion that the pop solo always changes. >> >> In my experience, the converse is true. Except for things such as the >> first solo in Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb", solos (and I suppose that >> I'm speaking of guitar solos at this point, since I haven't been able to >> recall a significant number of keyboard solos in pop/rock) are winged >> each time. Maybe they start the same, or there's an ending lick that it >> moves towards, but usually not. One of the things that I, and the >> guitarists that I've run into look forward to in a solo is the chance to >> make something new on the spot. > >This is probably more true pop music from the 70s or earlier. More recent >pop solos that I have heard live are reproductions of the recorded versions. >You might recall a recent complaint by Eric Clapton that not enough players >today in rock are willing to solo in a truly off-the-cuff manner. I hadn't seen that, but it could be that if what I call the Soviet Theory of Musical Ego ("The individual is not worthy of individual statement, only the good of the collective should be considered") is presented as good (witness the last twenty years of the British music press holding the anti-solo sentiments of Punk Rock dear to their heart) for long enough, young musicians may be convinced that soloing is a bad thing, and won't work on developing the skills necessary to solo well, which generally involves millions of crap, trite, boring solos. I live in Austin, and so the "guitar gunslinger" mentality, for better or worse is still alive and well here. I may have a skewed view of the Current State Of Guitar, but there's still a lot of SRV articles in the guitar press--someone's got to be learning this stuff. Paolo says: "I too hope a keyboardist will speak up because none of the keyboard players I have met were particularly interested in soloing in a pop context. Maybe in a jazz context but of course we're not talking about jazz here. Bass players I've met tended to be more impressed by a good bass groove than ripping bass solos." ¥ That's strange, because if Bass Player magazine is any indicator of the State of the Bass Union, there's still ample concern for ability to step out as needed. Reviews of new instruments always have a discussion of upper register access and playability, and the ability to cut through during a solo. There's also a preponderance of attention paid to the traditional, supportive role of the bass player, but try to tell BP that the bassist shouldn't take a solo, and you'll have a fight on your hands. Paolo: "My guess is that because guitar is the featured instrument in rock and pop (sorry, I can hardly tell the difference), the guitarist is expected to solo more than the keyboardist." ¥ But why is it featured? Where's the Angry Young Keyboard Player with something to say? The soloing ability of synthesizers is fearsome, there's got to be some rebel who says "screw the guitarist, I've got something to say here". Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:51 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:24:16 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNUD-0002LL-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:24:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199708122024.NAA23881@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:23:32 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t9coeD.A.UqB.XVM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/197 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:24:13 -0700 X-UIDL: 7b33f014d8ce6eaf1b37c20381115bdc > >> Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard > >> heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? How > >> many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by something > >> with a piano-keyboard interface? Anyone remember the Fixx???? Listen to any one of their albums and you'll hear some pretty darn cool keyboard solos. Matt From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:53 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:31:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNao-0003Bt-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:31:02 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708122025.NAA16050@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:25:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708122010.NAA21496@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 03:12:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wl6q5.A.TbC.lbM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/199 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:31:02 -0700 X-UIDL: 9ed5b52d4c99e1a254ed0d0448b3b01e > >On the subject of a hierarchy of expressive instruments: > > > >I'd rather hear Gary Burton on vibes (considered by some of you to be > >less expressive than guitar/sax/etc.) than another bad imitation of > >Jimmy Page on guitar or that awful sax player who couldn't even play > >in tune with that mediocre lite jazz band I saw several years ago. > > I don't think anyone can argue with statements such as "I'd rather hear a > really good musician on one instrument than a really bad one on another". Well, folks here have been discussing the relative merits of instruments in terms of absolutes; which left me a lot of leverage. ^_^ > It might be more interesting to compare musicians at the top of the skill > spectrum, rather than at opposing ends. Here I must respectfully bow out. I don't see how anything is to be gained discussing, for example, why Pat Metheny is a more expressive soloist than Gary Burton because his instrument is "inherently more expressive". I'd rather not go there myself. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:43 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 18:32:50 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wySIr-0005yR-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:32:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199708130129.SAA24188@apple.com> Subject: Electronica Solos Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:31:44 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"si-yoB.A.hTF.93Q8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/228 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:32:49 -0700 X-UIDL: b738154f17a6ed7a8d6e91e08f579aee >> Someone, I believe it was Kim, said that he enjoyed the more ego-free >> attitude in dance/electronic music, and while I'm opposed to excessive >> ego in any field, I've never been entirely convinced of the stance of >> synth humility. The whole "all solos are masturbatory, boring and >> needless" is as groundless as "all dance music is boring, repititive and >> needless". I'd prefer that guitarists have less self-importance, and >> keyboard players have more, to reach a happy mean. Although, as far as I >> can tell, the Age of Shred has been gone for some years now, and the >> guitarist who wishes to flount his technical ability needs to go to the >> independent labels that cater to metal. >> >> Please, keyboard players, speak up. > >Might I suggest the keyboardists in electronica _do_ solo, but not in the >way you'd expect to hear them? For now, I'll say that a "solo" is a instrumental statement by one person in a group context, which clearly says "I have the ball!", and this point is not contested by the other musicians. The focus of attention shifts to the performer in question for the duration of the solo. A statement is made with a beginning, a middle, and an end. There is no question as to whether or not a "solo" is occurring. When in doubt, the soloist is the guy who's playing the loudest. If you can point out such occurences in electronica, please provide specific track examples. Again, I'm not denying that these things exist, I'm just asking for someone to provide examples for my education, and further discussion. Travis From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:01 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:39:09 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNib-00045B-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:39:05 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708122033.NAA16109@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:33:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708122013.NAA35228@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 03:15:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Y-BuvD.A.rND.TiM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/201 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:39:05 -0700 X-UIDL: e57d55531e95a927061de1636876e429 > >> A "solo" in pop-derived music (including for this purpose, jazz) usually > >> refers to something composed by the instrumentalist, usually in some > >> semblance of realtime. In a live context (to kill the topic of > >> punch-in's or comp'ed performances), it's usually improvised, perhaps > >> using previous improvisations as a guide or starting place. Following > >> the jazz tradition, I would say that in it's purest sense, the "solo" > >> within pop music is different each time. > >> > >> I think a good case can also be made that most "solos" in pop-music are > >> ego-driven displays, designed to cut heads, or earn the Blow Job (as > >> Zappa said). To deny this is noble, but inaccurate. > >> > >> Travis > > > >I am not an expert on classical music, but most of the descriptive > >literature > >(liner notes, critiques, etc.) I've read on Western classical music > >use the word "solo" to refer to a melody line that highlights a particular > >instrument during a particular piece. For example (paraphrased from > >memory): "Here in the 14th measure, the flute _solo_ evokes..." > >A solo is a solo whether it is improvised or not. > > > >After all, there are quite a number of solos from the jazz genre that > >are precomposed (e.g. works from Duke Ellington, the guy who wrote > >"Powerhouse", "The Penguin", and other tunes that show up in Bug Bunny > >cartoons; others). > > > >Heck, even in pop a lot of solos are precomposed. > > Yes, but pre-composed in the sense that the composer and the performer > are often the same person. The solo may have been "composed" through > multiple takes, keeping the parts that worked, perhaps incorporating the > suggestions of band members, producers etc, but not by writing notes on a > staff, the way that classical music "composes" solos. But the end result is the same. The solo ends up set in stone, to be recited in an identical manner with each new performance of the music whether it be a pop song or a classical piece. With a few exceptions (there are always exceptions) the solo does not change. This contradicts your earlier assertion that the pop solo always changes. > Think about the amazing amount of attention that guitarists pay to > solos--why is that? In pop music, a solo may only occupy 10% of a song. > 90% of the time a guitarist is playing rhythm--why so much energy spent > on considering solos? Is this truly unique to guitar players? How about sax players, keyboardists, and other soloing musicians. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:02 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:52:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNvx-0005MP-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:52:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: OOOOOPS! Look what *I* did... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ngw3ND.A.siE.7vM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/203 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:52:53 -0700 X-UIDL: d979719213be37930f2890720a7f17a7 So I didn't get any mail on Monday, and thought the list might be down. Then I logged in this morning and the first message was Motley's now-infamous, dam-bursting post. So much for the list being down. (There have been nine new messages alone in the time that I've written this post.) Since I seem to have (inadvertently!) spawned this whole thing about a week ago, I feel like I should drop in a few points. (I had been waiting for the proverbial dust to settle before piping in again, but it now looks like I'll be posting in the middle of a sandstorm instead). The main thing I want to say is that I'm not aware of a single instance in any of my posts where I said that music made by a guitar player is better/more musical/more expressive/more whatever than that made by a DJ/programmer/whatever. I have *not* been trying to make statements to the effect that guitar-based loop music is better than sample-based loop music, or that growing your own samples makes better music than appropriating other people's samples. Obviously I have some preferences for my own music in some of the aforementioned areas, and I've gone on at lengths (which, as Stephen Goodman remarked, have probably veered dangerously close to mental masturbation) to talk about why I feel strongly about the way that I'm making music, and what it means to me. But I *am not* saying that people who don't share those methods aren't making real music. Quite the opposite. What I've been trying to get at are the *fundamental differences* in the way these different types of musics are *made*, and the attendant statements that are implicit in these distinctions. Because music isn't just *what you do*, it's *how you do it*. When you pick up any instrument, you making a statement before you've even played a note. I think it's worthwhile to look at these distinctions, especially when dealing with different sorts of looping technologies and techniques (which, up until the last couple of days, was ostensibly what this list is about). *This* is why I've been trying adamently to talk in detail about the different statements involved in making music in different ways. *This* is why I feel it makes sense to single out the three main real-time loopers in discussion. Because there *is* something more to making music than simply the sounds that you hear. The process itself carries a very definite statement, and I think these are important things to think about. I'm trying to underscore this because I think I've been undeservedly and incorrectly identified as a guitarist bigot who feels that sample-based music can't be as good as guitar-based music. Kim, I have high regard for your reasoning and beliefs, but if you honestly believe that my series of "philosophy" posts from last week are really saying the same thing as Motley's first post from Monday, and if you really think that I've been trying to draw lines in the sand, ostracize people who don't make music in the same way that I do, etc etc, then I've got to vehemently disagree with you. In the highly unlikely event that you find yourself with the time and inclination, then I'd have to ask that you look over what I've said again. I'm *not* making judgements about the quality of the music, and I frankly find it highly discouraging that you or anyone else would interpret my postings as such. If I really wanted to approach this whole thread in a silly way, I could give a list of the dozens of sample-based rap, hip-hop, industrial, techno, jungle, and dance albums that I've been listening to at various points for the last ten years; I could also list the dozens of famous, groundbreaking guitarists whose recorded work I don't feel particularly compelled to add to my collection. I could also point to the numerous posts I've made to the list regarding various electronic dance albums I've been enjoying. If we want to talk intelligently about the way we make music, it seems to me that we've got to be able to acknowledge differences in the way we make it. And I really do take issue with the extensive posts I've made (which have been composed with a considerable amount of thought and care, though apparently not with clarity of meaning) being misinterpreted as manifestos of superiority, invalidity, ghettoization, drawing lines in the sand, whatever whatever yadda yadda yadda. If nothing else, I think this thread wins the award for the longest electronically-based loop ever known to man. We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame-fest. --Andre From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:02 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:51:58 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNv2-0005Gi-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:51:56 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:46:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Kim Corbet Subject: Guitar good, keyboards bad To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com In-Reply-To: <199708122024.NAA23881@gw1.bi-tech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"AkUFPC.A.bcE.EvM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/202 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:51:56 -0700 X-UIDL: 0460de91fa33b5079eb4539bf638ae7c Phalluses good, desks bad... what I mean is...as a keyboardist, I consider Jan Hammer's work with Beck and John McLaughlin definitely on par with the giant cohorts. However, for me (the bassist & tightly budding guitarist), I'm sorry, but PLAYING the keyboard is boring to watch and not that exciting to DO compared to those beautifully vibrating strings over a wonderfully sculpted, smooth wood neck. It's a whole lot more fun than sitting behind what amounts to a big hunk of furniture or, worse, a heavy chunk of plastic and cheap metal parts. I love my Nord keyboard, but for sheer playing pleasure, I'd much rather PLAY my strat or P-bass or Modulus 5-string. It just feeeels good, man. From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:04 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 14:02:09 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyO4u-0006L4-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:02:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:57:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Kim Corbet Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com In-Reply-To: <199708122025.NAA16050@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"b0BrDD.A.PiF.R5M8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/204 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:02:08 -0700 X-UIDL: 96fde4dd72434a7972e04717a696e4c9 > I don't see how anything is to be > gained discussing, for example, why Pat Metheny is a more expressive soloist > than Gary Burton because his instrument is "inherently more expressive". > I'd rather not go there myself. ................................I think there ARE some interesting places to go as tributaries to the primary string. Looking at how the traditions of these instruments affect their current role and status, for example. If there were "piano bands" instead of string bands in the 20s and 30s having their impact on country swing and Texas blues, etc., perhaps Buddy Holly's Crickets might have been bass, drums and a lead and rhythm keyboard line-up instead. IF electric keyboards had been developed with the same zeal in the 50s and 60s and weren't assigned supporting roles in the subsequent decades, our discussion may be turned completely on its ear. Eh? From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:51 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 13:21:17 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyNRK-0001yo-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:21:14 -0700 From: Kevin Simonson Message-Id: <199708122013.AA177056816@eagle.uis.edu> Subject: Ring Mods... To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:13:36 -0600 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com" at Jul 30, 97 10:10:11 am Content-Type: text Resent-Message-ID: <"iiUNb.A.vCB.WQM8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/196 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:21:14 -0700 X-UIDL: 39cd49064f548e0d3cfb00030cbec812 Howdy... Analog Man is currently the US dealer for Black Cat ring modulators, which are supposedly an improved version of the old Maestro unit. I believe that they sell for $299. Check out the web page. Paia sells a kit, but I think it may be of questionable quality. I once owned a WD Green Ringer unit that provided 'RIng Mod effects' but was more of a wacky mean fuzz unit. Someone also mentioned that the SYB pedal 'freaks out' as it attempts to track chords. I get a similar effect out of hooking a Korg MS-03 (pitch/CV converter, essentially x-911 guts w/o the VCO's) to the filter pedal input of a GR-300. Nice chaos. -- Kevin Simonson * AS/400 Application Development Team U of I Springfield/Computer Science * Norwest Mortgage, Inc. simonson@eagle.uis.edu /=========* Springfield, IL ____/=====/_/======/__/__________ / /9 9/\ /9 9/\ / / 99 // /\ _/____________________ / / / / / / / 9 // 99 / / | _ ====== . . |'mmmmmmmmmm.. / @ / / /_@_/ / /_@__@__@__@__/ / | (_) ====== . . | ..GR300' \ - \/ \___\/ \_____________\/ |____________________| From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:23:38 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 12:43:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyMqg-0005bW-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:43:22 -0700 Message-ID: <33F0D8D8.897E58BD@interaccess.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:42:48 -0700 From: Jim Coker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199708121906.MAA25648@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LiNIjD.A.OrE.yuL8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/186 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:43:22 -0700 X-UIDL: f177369c06eff369f42cfbc3778d794b Q. What is a burning oboe good for? A. Lighting a bassoon. (courtesy of the NYTimes recent articles on an ergonomically customized viola) Also: Q. Whats the difference between a viola and a trampoline? A. With the trampoline, you take your shoes off before you jump on it. couldn't resist. Jim From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:07 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 14:45:56 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyOlG-0002J1-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:45:54 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970812214909.009fd1f4@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:49:09 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Resent-Message-ID: <"jAzx3C.A.4sB.nhN8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/206 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:45:54 -0700 X-UIDL: a822b31e225746553d593e2b760fd1ae At 08:20 PM 8/12/97 +0100, Michael Hughes wrote: > >> Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard >> heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? Why is it, that in traditional african percussion ensembles, there is an acute shortage of tenor sax players? Yet again, I have to wonder why some of you feel such an overwhelming need to prove that guitars (or bassoons, or whatever) are somehow so much better than other instruments. What purpose would proving that serve? They all do different things, and can make wonderful contributions in different contexts. Take the blinders off and enjoy it all. >How >> many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by something >> with a piano-keyboard interface? > >Keith Emerson? >Hell, he even smashes the keyboard up at the end of the gig! Little Richard Jerry Lee Lewis Booker T Elton John Billy Joel Bernie Worell Kate Bush Tori Amos Trent Reznor If there is a shortage of keyboard soloing in rock music, it's probably because egomaniacal keyboard players gravitate towards being concert pianists, or maybe jazz. Egomaniacal guitarists end up being yngwie malmsteen. Role models for the self-obsessed appear in different places, apparently. The team player/band member/song writer sort of piano player is more likely to be the one that wants to play in a rock band. A damn good thing, because I'd hate to see the rock band with John Tesh in it. One of the refreshing things about the electronic/dance scene is the tendancy towards humility. In fact, many of the "heroes" go to length to downplay themselves, which is probably why they are not so well known. Having the urge to be the star and parade around in front of everybody is not necessarily the same as being creative, or expressing oneself, or just having a good time making music. >Failing that, no. there's a limit to how cool you can look sitting down, >and no, upright controllers don't count. I think tori and elton john look pretty cool sitting down. Buckethead is the only guitar player I think looks cool standing up. As if it mattered :-) kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:10 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 15:04:17 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyP30-0003nO-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:04:14 -0700 Message-Id: <9708122154.AA11190@us3rmc.pa.dec.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 14:54:48 PDT From: "Father: what am I chopped liver? 3-year-old: yeah! you're a chocolate river!" To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Apparently-To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Phew!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"vwfMD.A.xED.DzN8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/207 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:04:14 -0700 X-UIDL: e14feaf4b06cc9ab5bc7598215c9ef23 Hi Loopers, Maybe you can help me get out of a loop I'm stuck in: ;-) ;-) ;-) StartLoop: read next email; if first sentence is same-ole philosophy stuff then quickly delete email; goto StartLoop else read for something meaningful and save; endif; No offence intended ;-) I just got on this mailing list 2 days ago - Phew!!!! To Fred Marshall: Wow! Now I feel like the most insignificant sound-mutilator on the planet. More true than less... But Fred please share any cool thing you know about folks like Wes Montgomery and others! Any little insight. Anything that sticks in your brain! Anything you remember off and on that helps you play music. All loopers can benefit from any little gems of advice. thanks-a-pile, Tom From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:10 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 15:04:32 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyP3G-0003pS-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:04:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:58:39 -0700 (MST) From: Dan Howarth To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970812214909.009fd1f4@pop.chromatic.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"thEN4.A.fJD.xzN8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/208 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:04:30 -0700 X-UIDL: 270aea448cf85a82cb96f4deaca7b0ea On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Kim Flint wrote: > because I'd hate to see the rock band with John Tesh in it. > i had the distinct experience of being the dressing room security guard for tesh and company when they played here in tucson. it was pretty lame, actually. i sat around and finished reading "a canticle for leibowitz" whilst tesh and company traded jump-ropes, exercise bikes, and massages in order to "get psyched for the show". tesh himself cranked up a few enya discs and even enigma (he started up tubular bells II and then decided after about five seconds that it wasn't good enough). the show was very, very well lit. i remember four giant truss with about ten of those computerized multi-gel/gobo lights each. the amount of money in that company was intense. i guess if you're in a rock and role band, you gotta show the money. ** Dan Howarth ** ** Classics-History-Music. University of Arizona, Tucson ** ** http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth ** From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:11 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 15:06:08 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyP4o-0003zx-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:06:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ccnet3.ccnet.com: dmic27 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:58:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Michael X-Sender: dmic27@ccnet3 cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) In-Reply-To: <33F0C19F.7963@gte.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"J3SN-D.A.aRD.50N8z"@ferret> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/209 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:06:06 -0700 X-UIDL: 58af8b9be9e76e196e9959d42ad83dd0 On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, future perfect wrote: > > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded > > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the > > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. > > Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song > on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. > Dave > There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. An amazing piece. Doug Michael From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:14 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 15:59:21 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyPuJ-0000So-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:59:19 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE:Solo Instruments Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:55:07 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 Encoding: 38 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"hBnmCC.A.GI.-nO8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/212 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:59:19 -0700 X-UIDL: 52e7c4f58ad2824b2018cf7228b51f1f >---------- >From: Doug Michael >Reply To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 5:58 PM >To: John_Ott@ATK.COM >Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) > >On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, future perfect wrote: > >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. >> >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. >> Dave >> >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. >An amazing piece. > Doug Michael > > Yes And the amazing runs from "Night after Night" on the live album. Eddie also uses the violin as a "Solo Instrument" amazing stuff. See the Roxy Music "Viva" live album. He and Phil Manzanera trade some wicked licks on "Out of the Blue" later John >(Keyboards,Guitars,Trombone,JamMan,Musician) From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:15 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:06:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQ1F-00012u-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:06:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:02:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) In-Reply-To: <199708121942.MAA05168@apple.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HfXUOD.A.Du.quO8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/213 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:06:29 -0700 X-UIDL: 499c04da99e1360e5ba2b3678688af58 On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, T.W. Hartnett wrote: > >> Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the > >> same way that Cream records are? > > > >Only if there's any justice left. > > Don't bet on it. Influential as Art of Noise has been on people who own > and/or operatate synthesizers, I think they may end up in the category of > "Historical Significance Only". I mean, I think that the third Peter > Gabriel album (with the melting face cover, includes "Games Without > Frontiers" and "Biko") is ENORMOUSLY influential, enjoyable and worthy of > praise, but I'm astounded at the number of people, even musicians with a > stated interest in unusual, electronic pop music, who are unaware of or > indifferent to it. If nothing else, this is the album that > singlehandedly introduced the gated reverb drum sound to the world, but > it doesn't really matter in the end. Civilians hear it and say > "Nice...but I prefer 'So'." Try applying this logic to Cream. How many "civilians" have ever really listened to Robert Johnson? All Cream did was electrify someone else's music. It was enormously successful and popular, and for good reason. That just shows that success is no measure of creativity or innovation, much less musical power. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:15 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:17:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQBZ-0001zh-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:17:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:12:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LiFnAB.A.ZfB.83O8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/214 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:17:09 -0700 X-UIDL: f5370f20b1c79101ccc998973dc88b93 Guitar is the driving instrument of rock music. If you switch genres, say to jazz or classical, guitar is not held in the same regard. In jazz, the guitarist is the guy who has to switch to a one-chord vamp for his solo because he can't play changes. Bleh. When Bill Frisell is praised in jazz circles, he's compared to Thelonius Monk, not Jim Hall or Wes Montgomery or Charlie Christian. Keyboardists and horn players dominate jazz. Electric guitars just gave us fusion. Here's an experiment for all of you who think the guitar is such a be-all solo intrument... try tuning to EADGCF for a few weeks. Straight fourths across the fretboard. You'll soon realize how much you've been letting the instrument play you, rather than the other way around. All those blues licks that infect your vocabulary will fall apart when they can no longer be played in one position. Stick with it, and you'll soon learn the harmonic advantages of this tuning, advantages the much-maligned keyboardists have always enjoyed. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:24 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:20:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQEQ-0002K3-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:20:06 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:14:12 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 Encoding: 56 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"5SITtB.A.XpB.35O8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/215 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:20:06 -0700 X-UIDL: 149c6dfb3d9ffcfbd6010575a84f0b37 >>>>>quote<<<<<<< >---------- >From: Dave Stagner >Reply To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 7:02 PM >To: John_Ott@ATK.COM >Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) > >On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, T.W. Hartnett wrote: > >> >> Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in >>the >> >> same way that Cream records are? >> > >> >Only if there's any justice left. >> >> Don't bet on it. Influential as Art of Noise has been on people who own >> and/or operatate synthesizers, I think they may end up in the category of >> "Historical Significance Only". I mean, I think that the third Peter >> Gabriel album (with the melting face cover, includes "Games Without >> Frontiers" and "Biko") is ENORMOUSLY influential, enjoyable and worthy of >> praise, but I'm astounded at the number of people, even musicians with a >> stated interest in unusual, electronic pop music, who are unaware of or >> indifferent to it. If nothing else, this is the album that >> singlehandedly introduced the gated reverb drum sound to the world, but >> it doesn't really matter in the end. Civilians hear it and say >> "Nice...but I prefer 'So'." > >Try applying this logic to Cream. How many "civilians" have ever >really listened to Robert Johnson? All Cream did was electrify >someone else's music. It was enormously successful and popular, and >for good reason. That just shows that success is no measure of >creativity or innovation, much less musical power. > >-dave > <<<<>>>>> Gee, I always thought Eric Clapton wrote "Badge" thanks for the correction. I'm a civilian musician computer geek with a extensive Robert Johnson collection. Never been in the Military. I don't follow your logic at all here. I always thought Cream was successful because of the musicianship, creativity and innovation of Jack Bruce, Ginger Baker and Eric Clapton. Here it was all the work of Robert Johnson. confused john From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:27 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:49:28 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQgo-0005M1-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:49:26 -0700 Message-ID: <33F0F5C9.8B21F3F9@wsdesigns.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:46:18 -0700 From: Warren Sirota Reply-To: wsirota@wsdesigns.com Organization: WS Designs X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: I just can't stop writing today... X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vumw3B.A._qE.1WP8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/219 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:49:26 -0700 X-UIDL: 598524b6ef4d764eb5de70d038b9b156 > Subject: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:20:19 +0100 (BST) > From: Michael Hughes > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > > > Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard > > > heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? > How > > many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by > something > > with a piano-keyboard interface? Well, gee, doesn't anyone here listen to jazz? Art Tatum? Bill Evans? Fats Waller? Keith Jarrett? Herbie Hancock? Oscar Peterson? There's plenty of breathtaking stuff there. This does beg the question of why there's such a paucity of great *rock* keyboard as compared to great jazz keyboard. Oh, maybe you mean, "why aren't there any great *synthesizer* solos?" That's easy. Synthesizers suck. (just kidding - they don't suck totally. but there are many, many ways in which they truly suck.) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Travis said: > > I'm not entirely sure. I was hoping that you, Warren, would have some > > insight, since I think you've written for two of the three mentioned. Thanks for noticing. :-) > My off the cuff theory would be that the focus in GP and BP is on > players, and in KB, the machinery. The advent of MIDI made things so > much more complicated that I could see a sizable market for a magazine > > that did nothing other than evaluate gear in an intelligent manner. I > > used to read KB regularly, and my recollection was that there was much > > more discussion of programming and sequencing software, and keeping > the > trainset running than appeared in GP at the time. Given the > complexity > of say, getting Cakewalk to sync to tape and controll three modules > and a > drum machine versus getting a crunchy rhythm tone on a Super Plexi, > this > makes sense to me. > Right, and this function devolved to KB because almost all synthesizers had and have kbd interfaces. But Electronic Musician also sprang up to fill this void, and it was started by a guitarist (Craig Anderton).-- Yours truly, Warren Sirota musician, programmer, writer http://wsdesigns.com/wsirota From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:28 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 16:56:37 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyQnk-00062V-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:56:36 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708122353.QAA17386@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:53:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708122328.QAA34304@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 06:31:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y7bJxD.A.WZF.JeP8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/220 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:56:36 -0700 X-UIDL: ef91cf740af7a3d7abc2b36a8d4ad44e > >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded > >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the > >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. "changed the way the instrument... would be viewed..." This only applies to keyboard players. Just like "Eruption" changed the way the guitar is viewed... only in the view of guitarists for the most part. Is "Eruption" of any significance at all to, say, drummers, or sax players? How about music lovers who don't play any instruments? My guess is "No" for both questions. > >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song > >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. > >> Dave > >> > >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. > >An amazing piece. > > Doug Michael > > Now I'm confused--is the ELP piece actually called "Eruption"? Come on Travis, you know better than that... ^_^ Just giving you a hard time, though I appreciate the Devil's Advocate role you've assumed in these discussions (intentionally or not). > Is this, and the UK piece, considered a piece of music so influential to > the keyboard world that teenagers play it to the considerable annoyance > of music shop staff, family, and neighbors, or are these just pieces that > you're pointing out as noteworthy keyboard statements that you personally > enjoy? > > Travis Going back to your "Eruption" example for guitarists, I'd say that piece is only influential to guitar players and even then only to those who actually care for it. I just don't see guys like David Lindley or young flamenco players giving two bits about "Eruption". Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:29 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 17:09:22 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyR03-00070v-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:09:19 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708130006.RAA17436@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:06:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708122243.PAA32522@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 05:45:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WqjuKD.A.pTG.5pP8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/221 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:09:19 -0700 X-UIDL: 16409e4f95215e7b70fe9cf12e80541b > >But the end result is the same. The solo ends up set in stone, to be > >recited in an identical manner with each new performance of the music > >whether it be a pop song or a classical piece. With a few exceptions > >(there are always exceptions) the solo does not change. This contradicts > >your earlier assertion that the pop solo always changes. > > In my experience, the converse is true. Except for things such as the > first solo in Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb", solos (and I suppose that > I'm speaking of guitar solos at this point, since I haven't been able to > recall a significant number of keyboard solos in pop/rock) are winged > each time. Maybe they start the same, or there's an ending lick that it > moves towards, but usually not. One of the things that I, and the > guitarists that I've run into look forward to in a solo is the chance to > make something new on the spot. This is probably more true pop music from the 70s or earlier. More recent pop solos that I have heard live are reproductions of the recorded versions. You might recall a recent complaint by Eric Clapton that not enough players today in rock are willing to solo in a truly off-the-cuff manner. > >> Think about the amazing amount of attention that guitarists pay to > >> solos--why is that? In pop music, a solo may only occupy 10% of a song. > >> 90% of the time a guitarist is playing rhythm--why so much energy spent > >> on considering solos? > > > >Is this truly unique to guitar players? How about sax players, keyboardists, > >and other soloing musicians. > > > Pop (non-jazz) keyboard players, on the other hand...I don't know. I was > hoping that some keyboard players (those who view keyboards as their > primary instrument) would speak up regarding this. Kim, as always, is > quick to defend non-guitar music from the Six String Klan, but I think > even he is more of a guitarist than a keyboard player. I too hope a keyboardist will speak up because none of the keyboard players I have met were particularly interested in soloing in a pop context. Maybe in a jazz context but of course we're not talking about jazz here. Bass players I've met tended to be more impressed by a good bass groove than ripping bass solos. My guess is that because guitar is the featured instrument in rock and pop (sorry, I can hardly tell the difference), the guitarist is expected to solo more than the keyboardist. > Someone, I believe it was Kim, said that he enjoyed the more ego-free > attitude in dance/electronic music, and while I'm opposed to excessive > ego in any field, I've never been entirely convinced of the stance of > synth humility. The whole "all solos are masturbatory, boring and > needless" is as groundless as "all dance music is boring, repititive and > needless". I'd prefer that guitarists have less self-importance, and > keyboard players have more, to reach a happy mean. Although, as far as I > can tell, the Age of Shred has been gone for some years now, and the > guitarist who wishes to flount his technical ability needs to go to the > independent labels that cater to metal. > > Please, keyboard players, speak up. Might I suggest the keyboardists in electronica _do_ solo, but not in the way you'd expect to hear them? Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:43 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 18:25:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wySBS-0005EM-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:25:10 -0700 Message-ID: <33F10BFA.3C6C@gte.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:20:58 -0400 From: future perfect Reply-To: artmusic@gte.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) References: <199708122328.QAA34304@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8FxECB.A.QgE.RwQ8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/227 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:25:10 -0700 X-UIDL: 65b195459c968581f8f353a8a92bbda4 T.W. Hartnett wrote: > > >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded > >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the > >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. > >> > >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song > >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. > >> Dave > >> > >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. > >An amazing piece. > > Doug Michael > > Now I'm confused--is the ELP piece actually called "Eruption"? > Is this, and the UK piece, considered a piece of music so influential to > the keyboard world that teenagers play it to the considerable annoyance > of music shop staff, family, and neighbors, or are these just pieces that > you're pointing out as noteworthy keyboard statements that you personally > enjoy? > > Travis Yes, the piece on Tarkus is actually called 'Eruption'. -- ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 "Nothing worthwhile is achieved suddenly" -Robert Fripp From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:31 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 17:46:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyRa3-0002Fe-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:46:31 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:45:25 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"inEQK.A.ItB.hLQ8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/223 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:46:31 -0700 X-UIDL: 1d119c0f5f21f4460a7cf279abd02f1d At 11:52 AM 8/12/97, Paolo Valladolid wrote: >> >International Double Reed Society >> >Library Holdings - Music: Solo Bassoon >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The following is music for Solo Bassoon. The entries in this list are >> >sorted by Composer. >> >> (long list of works deleted) >> >> I think John P. may have (and if not, I am) been referring not to works >> written for unaccompanied bassoon, or featuring the bassoon, but rather >> spontaneous realtime composition and performance over a pre-decided >> backing, i.e., a hot bassoon solo in the pop music sense. > >All John requested was "Point out a killer bassoon solo" to which >Dave complied. Sorry to nitpick but he didn't specify a pop music >context. > >Even if he did, does it really matter? A killer bassoon solo is a killer >solo regardles of genre. > Hey, for some interesting use of bassoon in a rock context, albiet very experimental, check out Lindsay Cooper with Henry Cow, killer stuff all. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:45 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 19:00:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wySjS-0000Qt-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:00:18 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970812204916.007cbed0@texas.net> X-Sender: ranjones@texas.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:50:17 -0500 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Randy Jones Subject: OPINION SPAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"u_uH0C.A.4J.iRR8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/229 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:00:18 -0700 X-UIDL: c8f71934e4eafa18ab815087fe262b59 Wow! Whats happening? Can we stop all this opinion B.S. Who cares what instrument you play/like. Who cares who your favorite artists are. Who cares which albums you buy. Who cares what you think is/isn't music. Who cares what you think about sampler, syths, djs, music theory, music philosophy or someones elses opinion on the above. No one here is going to change his/her mind based on your opinion, we just want to discuss hardware, software, playing, gigs and looping techniques. We can make up our own opinions. We just want the facts! Or am I the only one tired of getting this OPINION SPAM as email. Just MY opinion! :-(AHHHHH) Randy Jones From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:46 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 19:29:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyTBV-0002UC-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:29:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:24:14 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com Message-ID: <970812222156_-1203140705@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Resent-Message-ID: <"5ufDFB.A.3_B.OsR8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/230 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:29:17 -0700 X-UIDL: a20e71f3475aa52a1ddda8171920edea Without a doubt, the Eventide H3000D/SE, or other Eventide products. Expensive yes, but worth it. You'll use it for years and years and never get tired of it. Clean and quiet with hundreds of very easily changed effects. If you like to warp things out extensively, this is it. Others worth mentioning: the Lexicon PCM 80, extreme quality with enough tweaking possibilities to keep you interested forever. Another great thing is Lexicons' thoughtfulness in including a PCM/CIA card slot. Altho these cards cost about a hundred dollars for blanks, you can store hundreds of sounds in them. Almost a thousand if memory serves. Also, Lexicon makes cards with new algorithms that add new features to the unit, as well as program cards. First rate. Another great one is the Sony V77. Very easy to program and excellent quality. Not cheap but you won't ever be bored with it. Another is the Roland SDE 330 Dimensional Space Delay. One of the best delay units made. Yup, these are my faves, but the Eventide is definitely at the top of my list. Jim Portland OR From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:47 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 19:37:24 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyTJK-0003FW-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:37:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:31:26 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com Message-ID: <970812222850_-1472013121@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Resent-Message-ID: <"Iiu_.A.imC.9yR8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/231 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:37:22 -0700 X-UIDL: 53a556c6bb37b1bfbac3fc9f55c3ee22 In a message dated 8/12/97 3:38:09 PM, you wrote: <> Could you elaborate on this Kim? It sounds extremely interesting. Jim Portland OR From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:48 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 20:01:03 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyTgE-0004yG-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:01:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199708130257.TAA28073@usr01.primenet.com> From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:57:33 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bPCDuC.A.hdE.gKS8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/232 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:01:02 -0700 X-UIDL: b1c3b9fef4e613e66f35d3798703219c On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD wrote: > > Yes, but a guitarst on his own is pretty imited. There aren't many solo > electric guitar peices worth listening to. Now wait a minute! While I won't wholly disagree with the second statement - and I hope I'm not in THAT group - a pat statement like the first one is too general to ever apply to reality. I admit I'm chugging away and creating this stuff on an ongoing basis, without other than good reviews from the published work so far; and ALL of it can't be great. There are few soloists I like listening to myself. Personally, from a looping standpoint, I love being able to have the system at home, ready for me to sit down and create a texture, and let it run for hours. I decided to take this path towards performance because I believed that the music has lots of places to go, and that a lot of people haven't heard it yet. Maybe it's the way I do it. Maybe not! But I had to rebut that comment at least. Ahenh.! Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:49 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 21:14:50 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyUpa-00018o-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:14:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:18:13 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Recommended DJs/Electronica (Was: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33F12775.3B06@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <2.2.32.19970812014708.0098ca38@pop.chromatic.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"nzBi6D.A.4n.8OT8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/233 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:14:46 -0700 X-UIDL: b496da524e0fe6635443e00d567cad5d Okay, I'm gonna try again. In an earlier post, in response to Kim Flint, I wrote: > >'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make > >me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos > >Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please! And Kim responded with a laundry list of artists whose work "really turned my head around and opened up new ideas," and which "really mattered to me". If I had far more time and money than I have, I'd gladly check out each of Kim's suggestions. But I have practically no money even to buy work by artists I _know_ I like, and little time even for my own music. I've tried to educate myself by watching MTV and BET, but became so distracted and disgusted by the raps that I gave up. What remains of my life is too short to willingly subject myself to racism and sexism, and after living in an inner city for longer than most of the rappers have been alive, I already know how bad it is. What I'd really like are the names of one or two or three albums which clearly display the work of a virtuoso DJ, unobscured by raps, vocals, or other musicians. Is this asking too much? -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:50 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 21:15:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyUq1-0001Bw-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:15:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:48:32 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Bassoon Bait Brings Byte Barrage! (Was: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33F12E90.1C9F@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <2.2.32.19970812014708.0098ca38@pop.chromatic.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"EdAIjB.A.-p.PPT8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/234 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:15:13 -0700 X-UIDL: 842457975a9618e28066365997c55462 Kim Flint wrote: > > At 11:44 PM -0500 8/11/97, John Pollock wrote: > >'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make > >me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos > >Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please! > > >For that matter, point out the killer bassoon solo... > > I like the way bassoon sounds, why are putting that one down? After playing > guitar all my life, working for a guitar company, and generally being with > it forever, I would be quite happy to spend a year listening to bassoon! (sigh) I was not putting it down. Nor, for that matter, was I putting DJs down. I was stating my agreement with Motley's point, which _I_ took to be that it's easier to play music expressively on some instruments than on others. I mentioned the bassoon precisely because I've read and been told that it is a very difficult instrument to play at all, harder still to play with technical proficiency, and harder yet to play expressively. It lacks the guitar's or violin's ability to do double stops or chords, and I suspect (though I don't know this for sure) that a bassoonist would have a tough time doing the glissandi that are so readily achieved on guitar or violin. Thus, from my perspective, it's no surprise that bassoon solos are rare in the mass media compared to guitar and violin. I think I can fairly sum up Fred Marshall's contribution to this thread thusly: "Instruments don't make great music; great musicians do." If that's not exactly what Fred meant, it's nonetheless how I feel. But Motley's contention that it's easier on some instruments than others is, I believe, inarguable. At the least, I feel it deserves a more respectful response than it received from Kim. -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:50 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 21:15:16 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyUpy-0001Bb-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:15:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:12:49 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Re: No, No, No -- You're wrong. Actually, the World's Best Instrumen t is... To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33F13441.70BA@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F18E99B@mail.exapps.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"ntBRHC.A.Wq.RPT8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/235 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:15:10 -0700 X-UIDL: 5aec518cdf43a9ee4c62f70cfeb60037 David Kirkdorffer wrote: > > Excellent! We've started a really stupid and pointless thread in our > Looping tappistry! I totally agree. > P.S. John P. -- my posting is not directed at you specifically, but to > answer a question you asked -- here is a listing of some bassoon solos > and bassoon music... > > International Double Reed Society > Library Holdings - Music: Solo Bassoon > [lengthy list snipped] Look how many of these titles are studies, methods, or orchestral excerpts. I'm not aware of any bassoon virtuoso/composer comparable to Liszt, Paganini, or Bach, to name just a few who were known as much for their performing ability as for their compositions. Ob looping: It occurs to me, though, that with a 'Plex or 'Rang and maybe a Whammy Pedal at his/her disposal, a bassoonist could find the playing field today a lot closer to level. -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:52 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 22:10:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyVhW-0004ja-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:10:30 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708130507.WAA18770@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:07:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <970812222156_-1203140705@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "BlkSwan03@aol.com" at Aug 12, 97 10:24:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wib9o.A.uPE.sEU8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/236 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:10:30 -0700 X-UIDL: 517d46c7c4429d8d072a141644fa8b35 Just received DPCoffin's review of the TC Electronics G-Force. Sounds like a very interesting box. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:54 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 22:23:41 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyVuG-0005SD-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:23:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:19:38 -0700 X-Sender: mgsam@wave.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: mgsam@wave.net Subject: Re: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars Good, Keboards bad) Resent-Message-ID: <"cvX1VD.A.B7E.sQU8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/237 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:23:40 -0700 X-UIDL: 407f3636fc907e0f5bf7a4a93d5db514 Many interesting posts...the LoOpDoctOrs are eyestrained. Here are our thoughts...and by the way, we come armed with Keyboards and Guitars to every gig...we like them both. 1: The piano was the middle class instrument pre-depression. The nineteen thirties devestated the piano business...the instrument has never really recovered. Hence,fewer young hands taking up the ivories, so fewer young hands can transfer those skills to a keyboard. Also it took a helluva long time to succesfully amplify keyboards... And spare us arguments about two ton Hammond B-3s. 2: Post World War 2 and with the advent of the electric amp, guitar became the middle class instrument. There were a host of reasons but briefly... a: guitar is much less expensive and complex to build then a piano, and much easiar to learn to play passably well. b: instrument that gained the most by the advent of electric amplification (thank you, Leo!) c: The guitar is a folk instrument that rose with "folk" music, just as the world was finally throwing off the shackles of colonialism. Hence, blues, rock, funk, World...(you name it now...the contempoarary musical scene has just glopped itself silly with disparate influences) got liberated by WW 2, and the guitar was the secret weapon that really won the Cold War. Ironically, the guitar had been a "gutter" instrument...all that poor people in the south could afford. d: Likewise, America was/is the inventor/promulgator of loud guitars...has been throughout this century, first with the steel string, later with the electric. When America conquered the world post WW2 it spread its music and its guitars. e: the guitar has the most powerful sexual iconography of any instrument...(have you ever noticed that a Strat is Apollonian and a Les Paul is Dionysian? Skip this if you haven't studied the Greeks)...anyway, your average 13 year old gets right away that there are two things you can buy for about $300 that look and in many ways act like a bigger cock...an electric guitar and a pistol. Both make noise, and both scare the shit out of parents. Given the music it serviced (rock and roll) it was the the perfect "fit." Meanwhile, even the most outrageous and visual piano players look like they're taking a dump when pounding it out on the piano. They have to twist their necks to look at the audience, or stay hidden behind the box, and no way are they going to be able to pick up and stroke that thang! Onto other points... 3: the Piano DID have tons of Eddie Van Halens...there names were Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, List, Rachmaniniov, Paderewski, Rachmononov, Horowitz...these "piano heroes" came between 1750 and 1950. 4: Jazz lost the popularity contest about 1948. It only survives now through public schools. It is America's high art, but is not particularly accessible, and to play it you better know more then a blues box and bar chords. Rock has never had this problem. 5: Bill Frissell is good, but Monk is Monk and inimitable...so just let Bill be Bill. 6: One final point. Popular music has grown more and more interesting in the last five years, and the LoOpDoctOrs believe, maybe foolishly, that it is morphing and absorbing just about anything it can glop onto...so genre boundaries are becoming less relevent...with the exception of maybe 10 to 17 year olds. They will always have some form of pagan, rebellious, no-brainer-to-play sex music based around "folk" chords. 7: On technique/virtuosity/and musicality...the LoOpDoctOrs like to think that it isn't in the fingers...but in the brain and the heart. We are looking for the ships that will sail us there. We don't ask for perfect seas either, and can't imagine calling ourselves sailors without knowing how to deal with foul weather. And whoever wrote that piano was built to play in "middle C" has just got to be kidding! Meanwhile we want/demand a varied musical diet. We love it that musicians from Africa now cross the Atlantic to play on sessions in America and visa versa. Best, the LoOpDoctOrs From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:24:55 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 22:26:51 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyVxK-0005kD-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:26:50 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708130523.WAA18846@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Electronica Solos To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:23:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708130129.SAA24188@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 08:31:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1LiC4C.A.7JF.7TU8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/238 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:26:50 -0700 X-UIDL: 864ad82aa64f85fa501abda9209a052a > >Might I suggest the keyboardists in electronica _do_ solo, but not in the > >way you'd expect to hear them? > > For now, I'll say that a "solo" is a instrumental statement by one person > in a group context, which clearly says "I have the ball!", and this point > is not contested by the other musicians. The focus of attention shifts > to the performer in question for the duration of the solo. A statement > is made with a beginning, a middle, and an end. There is no question as > to whether or not a "solo" is occurring. When in doubt, the soloist is > the guy who's playing the loudest. As I suspected, the improvisations I was talking about don't match your definition of a solo. I certainly wasn't talking about soloing using the scales, arpeggios, and other constructs built upon the 12-tone equal tempered scale. > If you can point out such occurences in electronica, please provide > specific track examples. Again, I'm not denying that these things exist, Unfortunately, I cannot suggest specific track examples; though I strongly recommend you check out the Live 93 double-CD by The Orb. The live configuration of The Orb consisted of a bassist, two percussionists, and two keyboardists if I recall correctly. The keyboardists "improvise" by changing the settings of mixers, effects parameters applied to samplers and synths and so on in real time. For example, they will play DATs which contain prerecorded backing tracks but will feed the DAT outputs into a mixer connected to effects so they can fade effects in and out and do other things to teh DAT signal so that the playback of the DAT is always different from concert to concert. Add to this the live bassist and percussionists who interact with the keyboard players so there is actual communication going on between musicians instead of everyone being slaved to some mechanical clock. After you listen to Live 93, let's talk some more. ^_^ Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:25:04 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 22:44:50 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWEk-0006sy-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:44:50 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708130541.WAA18918@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:41:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708130119.SAA32344@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 08:21:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q52cK.A.GJG._jU8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/239 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:44:50 -0700 X-UIDL: bcd9b02716fcfaa2c597c082b847f50d > I hadn't seen that, but it could be that if what I call the Soviet = > Theory of Musical Ego ("The individual is not worthy of individual = > statement, only the good of the collective should be considered") is = > presented as good (witness the last twenty years of the British music = > press holding the anti-solo sentiments of Punk Rock dear to their = > heart) for long enough, young musicians may be convinced that soloing = > is a bad thing, and won't work on developing the skills necessary to = > solo well, which generally involves millions of crap, trite, boring = > solos. Actually what Mr. Clapton is talking about is the lack of desire to make up a totally new solo in the live performance of a song. Instead it's common for the guitarist to play it safe and simply reproduce the same solo he played on the album. It's much scarier to approach your solo with a clean slate over and over again with each new gig. > I live in Austin, and so the "guitar gunslinger" mentality, for = > better or worse is still alive and well here. I may have a skewed = > view of the Current State Of Guitar, but there's still a lot of SRV = > articles in the guitar press--someone's got to be learning this stuff. Do the gunslingers really invent new solos off teh tops of their heads with each re-performance of their songs or do they always play the same solo? I mean, in Austin, of course. > Paolo says: > > Bass players I've met tended to be more impressed by a good bass = > groove > than ripping bass solos." > > =80 That's strange, because if Bass Player magazine is any indicator = > of the State of the Bass Union, there's still ample concern for = > ability to step out as needed. Reviews of new instruments always = > have a discussion of upper register access and playability, and the = > ability to cut through during a solo. There's also a preponderance = > of attention paid to the traditional, supportive role of the bass = > player, but try to tell BP that the bassist shouldn't take a solo, = > and you'll have a fight on your hands. But how many bass players in the world actually read Bass Player? I've met many guitar players who don't read guitar magazines. The sample size in my personal experience is admittedly small but most of the bassist's I've met are more interested in good grooves than out-shredding the guitarists. > Paolo: > > "My guess is that because guitar is the featured instrument in rock = > and > pop (sorry, I can hardly tell the difference), the guitarist is > expected to solo more than the keyboardist." > > =80 But why is it featured? Where's the Angry Young Keyboard Player = Because guitar is much more popular than keyboard as an instrument; they're cheaper, you can take them to the beach and impress girls with them, they're much more convenient to use as props/phallic symbols/ fashion accessories, etc. > with something to say? The soloing ability of synthesizers is = > fearsome, there's got to be some rebel who says "screw the guitarist, = > I've got something to say here". Maybe the AYKP can't be found in Austin? ^_^ Sun Ra was one bad mofo synth player who actually PLAYED the synth instead of treating it like a home organ. If he had been a member of P. Funkadelic (instead of that weirdo space-jazz arkestra of his ^_^) I'm sure he would have attracted more attention and inspired a whole new generation of ripping synth soloists. I'm sure there's a kid out there making serious virtuosic noise on a Yamaha VL1 physical modeling synth (the best lead synth I ever heard) as we speak... Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:25:05 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 22:57:33 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWR3-0007dJ-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:57:33 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708130555.WAA18972@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars Good, Keboards bad) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:55:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708130104.SAA08652@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 08:06:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8MmMID.A.I_G.DxU8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/240 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:57:33 -0700 X-UIDL: f8f246d2d36f332b7eb43962a86bbe3f > trying to find out what the keyboard equivalents are. The guitar press > frequently compiles lists of noteworthy albums and even solos--is there > no equivalent in the keyboard world? Well Keyboard Magazine obviously compiles its own lists. Others have cited examples ranging from ELP to Genesis to that guy in Kansas. How about that opening organ solo in Boston's "It's Been a Long Time" (ok, I don't remember the correct title)? Here is a song that even today receives near-constant airplay on classic rock stations and surely has been heard by millions of potential keyboardists. If none of these examples convince you then I guess we should move on... > >Going back to your "Eruption" example for guitarists, I'd say that piece > >is only influential to guitar players and even then only to those who > >actually care for it. I just don't see guys like David Lindley or young > >flamenco players giving two bits about "Eruption". > > I'm sure that Lindley is quite aware of Eruption, and probably can play > around a bit with the two-handed technique. God knows, he can play But do you really believe Lindley was influenced by "Eruption"? How about that incredible young slide player in New York (Dave Tronzo)? > stringed things with frets in just about any other way. Young flamenco > players probably don't know or care, but in this discussion, I'm probably > referring to electric guitarists from North America or Europe. Most of In that case, what you say sounds reasonable. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:25:06 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 23:04:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWXm-0000L3-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:04:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:01:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Henry Throop To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Pz549D.A.SE.62U8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/241 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:04:30 -0700 X-UIDL: d6159a8e50c5fe5e97f918194bef291f > Without a doubt, the Eventide H3000D/SE, or other Eventide products. > Expensive yes, but worth it. You'll use it for years and years and > never get tired of it. Clean and quiet with hundreds of very easily > changed effects. Umm... including the somewhat non-traditional effect that it was just featured using in 'Contact,' processing RF signals from the Very Large Array radio telescope. :-) -henry throop@colorado.edu From ???@??? Tue Aug 12 23:25:06 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 23:05:25 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWYe-0000Pg-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:05:24 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708130602.XAA19014@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:02:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708130009.RAA12970@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 07:11:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bODPED.A.ML.V4U8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/242 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:05:24 -0700 X-UIDL: 569b5413afcad18bbce3ab22698b27f1 > In non-fusion Jazz, the guitarist is usually denied the option of > distortion, the primary method of imparting sustain upon a sustain-poor I don't know how things are in Austin but from what I've seen the guitarist himself chooses not to use distortion; he is not barred from using it by the other band members. It could be out of fear, it could be out of some ingrained notion of how the guitar ought to sound int a jazz context (witness the phenomenon of young jazz guitar students trading in their Strats/Les Pauls/etc. for fat jazz boxes) or it could be something else. > note, you're sort of pressed into playing another...quickly. The pianist > can't just sit on a note for four bars, whereas the above instruments can. This goes back to "no instrument can do evertying". Great pianists find ways to say what they want to say on their instrument. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Sun Mar 08 23:30:39 1998 >From kflint Sun Mar 8 23:27:48 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBwyK-000102-00; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:27:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970812235835.007b15f0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:58:35 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: loops and video? an UFOs ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19980308023212.2ee7197a@texas.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19970811231844.007af570@pop3.concentric.net> <199803072040_MC2-35EE-E19@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4kZAhB.A.h.ig5A1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3975 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:27:40 -0800 X-UIDL: 147b5b08a915fd9a41794492acb0bfca Status: O X-Status: I'm really intrigued by your use of video, but I muat ask, WHERE THE HECK DID YA GET THE UFO FOOTAGE!? smiles, Corynne At 02:32 AM 3/8/98, you wrote: >hi, > >well at my last gig,,,i used a video loop as well,,,i recorded about 20 >minutes of UFO footage (shot with home cameras,,,by normal ma & pa >types),,,this footage played silent ,,,while i made live music,,,,the video >looped 3 times..my intent was to take the audience's attention off of >me,,,and place it on the video monitor,,,and allow me to provide a canvas >of music and sound,,,it worked ok,,,but i might not try it again,,,i >already have too much equipment as it is (the geek factor)... > > >james"gradually going tornado" rhodes > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 11:18 PM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >> I did a project years ago which combined loop music with video, though it >>was never finished due to some extenuating circumstances, the concept and >>workingresult came off much better than we'd expected. I think loops and >>video can work wonderfully together. I've toyed with the idea for quite >>some time off putting together a performance which involved loop music, >>video or slides with dance and/or performance art. I got this idea after >>opening for Jilly Smithe who did a wonderful spoken-word performance with >>slides and musical accompaniment. I was really bothered that I couldn't >>move around or dance during some of the loops as I was "leashed" to my >>equiptment. As far as the direction of looping is concerned, I think it >>may involve more combinations of musical styles which weren't previously >>put together as fusion has done. I also see it branching out into other >>musical styles as well which it is already doing. The instrumentation is >>also becomming more and more diverse, and I think this will only continue. >>Couple these ideas with multi-media and movement, and we really have a lot >>to look forward to... >> >>smiles, >> >>Corynne >> >>At 08:40 PM 3/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>buzzard wrote: >>>>Well... people have talked before about the >>>possibility of visual accompaniment for loops... >>>I've always been pretty down on the idea because >>>visual looping pretty much has to be static >>>(I think video feedback might be more analogous)... >>>but there _is_ an industry of visual "loops" [1]... >>>so if you really want we could connect this >>>topic back to looping I'm sure...< >>> >>>Hey, our band sometimes plays with a video *scratcher* >>>who mixes his stuff on top of our music. He works with >>>pre-recorded cut-up videos and "blends" them together. >>>Anybody else doing this? Interestingly, people come up >>>to us after the show saying that they understood >>>all sorts of symbolic stuff etc. - none of which was intended. >>>It seems that *loopy* music fits really well with videos - I >>>hope that it has nothing to do with said auduence's >>>substance abuse/ overuse. People just make their own >>>associations between image and sound - fascinating. >>> >>>Rob >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From ???@??? Sun Mar 08 23:30:40 1998 >From kflint Sun Mar 8 23:28:11 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBwyk-000139-00; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:28:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970813000013.007ae3a0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:00:13 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: loops and video? and future looping... In-Reply-To: <199803081039_MC2-35FE-367A@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tK_a0B.A.cB.mg5A1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3976 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:28:06 -0800 X-UIDL: c519eb31799888137150a75804885ec6 Status: O X-Status: We just got some in at the store but I haven't had a chance to try them yet. I am looking forward to though, we'll see how they do... smiles, Corynne At 10:38 AM 3/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Corynne wrote: >>Couple these ideas with multi-media and movement, and we really have a lot >to look forward to...< > >On the idea of movement, has anybody tried out the dimension beam >MIDI controllers yet? Or has anybody tried out the new Roland boxes >with built-in beams? > >Rob > > > From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 01:55:47 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 23:26:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWtF-0001fO-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:26:41 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:25:51 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad Resent-Message-ID: <"HuyMoC.A.CHB.pKV8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/243 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:26:41 -0700 X-UIDL: ef62180886b216ed4f3a4edd3c59d1e6 At 3:46 PM 8/12/97, Kim Corbet wrote: >Phalluses good, desks bad... > >what I mean is...as a keyboardist, I consider Jan Hammer's work with Beck >and John McLaughlin definitely on par with the giant cohorts. > Oh, yeah, in a previous incarnation I wanted to BE Jan Hammer, his stuff with Mahavishnu, and on Bolly Cobham's Spectrum record totally kills me. >However, for me (the bassist & tightly budding guitarist), I'm sorry, but >PLAYING the keyboard is boring to watch and not that exciting to DO >compared to those beautifully vibrating strings over a wonderfully >sculpted, smooth wood neck. It's a whole lot more fun than sitting >behind what amounts to a big hunk of furniture or, worse, a heavy chunk >of plastic and cheap metal parts. Try sitting over McCoy Tyner's right shoulder, then tell me that "PLAYING the keyboard is boring", like all other things, it's the musician not instrument. Besides, maybe I'm just funny this way, but I *listen* to musicians, and could generally give a fuck about how they look when playing... > >I love my Nord keyboard, but for sheer playing pleasure, I'd much rather >PLAY my strat or P-bass or Modulus 5-string. It just feeeels good, man. But what is your main instrument? I mean, soloing, and doing it the level of Jan Hammer or Van Halen or whatever, takes a certain level of accomplishment on the instrument. I'm a combination bassist/keyboardist also, started on keys, played 12 years of classical lessons and a jazz piano performance degree, and I'm much more comfortable soloing on keys than bass, though I've played bass for 14 years also. Could it be that the strat or modulus (I'm jealous, man, I love modulus basses) feels better because you play it better? ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 01:55:49 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 23:27:06 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWtZ-0001hb-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:27:01 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:25:57 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: I just can't stop writing today... Cc: "Looper's Delight" Resent-Message-ID: <"-_DOjB.A.6HB.xKV8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/244 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:27:01 -0700 X-UIDL: a8d5987430c0b6aa17faf209dfa4c519 At 11:46 AM 8/12/97, T.W. Hartnett wrote: >I respond to Warren Sirota: > > >>> >>> > Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard >>> >>> > heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? >>> How >>> > many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by >>> something >>> > with a piano-keyboard interface? >> >>Well, gee, doesn't anyone here listen to jazz? Art Tatum? Bill Evans? >>Fats Waller? Keith Jarrett? Herbie Hancock? Oscar Peterson? There's >>plenty of breathtaking stuff there. This does beg the question of why >>there's such a paucity of great *rock* keyboard as compared to great >>jazz keyboard. > Well, I've always had a fondness for the synthesizer solo in "Rosanna" by Toto, lousy song, sucky sellout band, but it's a solo that rips. Also, the minimoog solo at the end of Heart's, oh geez, now I forget which tune, either "Barracuda" or "Magic Man" is pretty great. And I pretty much stopped listening to pop music in the early '80's. As far as jazz, geez, there's at least a hundred astounding keyboard soloists. I've been listening to the new re-issue of Miles Davis "Black Beauty" lately, highly recommended BTW, a great live record, and was struck by how great and interesting a keyboardist Chick Corea was before getting infected by Scientology. Also, there's Marilyn Crispell, McCoy Tyner, Cecil Taylor, Joe Zawinul, John Medeski, etc, etc >Yes, I was hoping someone would answer that question, but I didn't want >to ask it. Again, where are the keyboardists on this list? > >> >>Oh, maybe you mean, "why aren't there any great *synthesizer* solos?" >>That's easy. Synthesizers suck. (just kidding - they don't suck totally. >>but there are many, many ways in which they truly suck.) > >Many, many, many. And it's baffling--the idea is so great, but much as I >love and use synths, any individual model of synth seems to fall short of >analog instruments (I can hear the artillery fire already). They don't >hold their value, they don't hold people's interest. Synths don't seem >to produce a sound which is complex enough to be fascinating over the >course of years. > There is such a variety of synthesizers that a blanket statement like that is pretty much unsupportable. The earliest modular analogs make some really terrific variable and "expressive" sounds. The next generation monophonics like the minimoog and ARP odyssey made excellent solo instruments, I think there's a significant body of work from the '70's to support this, Zawinul, Corea, Hammer, etc. Sample-playback synths are basically a blight on the face of creative music, but the newer generation of physical modeling synths, like the korg prophecy or yamaha VL70 are wonderful solo instruments, I have a VL70m and it really has a lot of expressive possibilities, in fact this instrument has rekindled my interest in monophonic keyboard soloing. >I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the problems stem from the trend >of using synthesizers to remove the "difficult" parts of making music. A >keyboard synthesizer makes it very easy to play a note--just press down >the key and hold it. Anyone can do it. >The same isn't true of a violin, trumpet or guitar (and with an electric >guitar feeding a high-gain amp, there's not inconsiderable technique >required to play a rest). I think one of the sad truths of life is that >if it's easy, it's probably not worth much. > Yeah, I totally agree here, but the best keyboardists really play their instruments, the same as any violinist, trumpeter or guitarist. It may be easier to sound good as a complete amatuer on a synth, but it's just as difficult to master. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 01:55:49 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 23:27:13 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWth-0001iQ-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:27:09 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:26:05 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: OPINION SPAM Resent-Message-ID: <"km-IE.A.3JB.-KV8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/245 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:27:09 -0700 X-UIDL: 448794868d3fab482b29668e299037eb At 8:50 PM 8/12/97, Randy Jones wrote: >Wow! > >Whats happening? >Can we stop all this opinion B.S. >Who cares what instrument you play/like. >Who cares who your favorite artists are. >Who cares which albums you buy. >Who cares what you think is/isn't music. >Who cares what you think about sampler, syths, djs, music theory, music >philosophy or someones elses opinion on the above. > >No one here is going to change his/her mind based on your opinion, we just >want to discuss hardware, software, playing, gigs and looping techniques. >We can make up our own opinions. We just want the facts! > >Or am I the only one tired of getting this OPINION SPAM as email. > Geez, the hardware nazi's strike again. I think that one of the basic tenets of the 'net (like the one says invoking nazism in an argument automatically loses the argument) should go something like this," Any attempt to discuss music on the internet must be strictly about technology, and any attempt to discuss esthetics must immediately be shot down." You should have known when you were getting into this list that we're a grumbly and contemplative bunch, if you can't stand the discourse, there's always the delete key... ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 01:55:50 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 12 23:27:23 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyWts-0001jz-00; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:27:20 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:26:09 -0800 To: johnpollock@delphi.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Recommended DJs/Electronica (Was: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)) Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"6TX_mC.A.eKB.DLV8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/246 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:27:20 -0700 X-UIDL: f1c7ad1c884538cd8450eb74185122c7 At 10:18 PM 8/12/97, John Pollock wrote: >What I'd really like are the names of one or two or three albums which >clearly display the work of a virtuoso DJ, unobscured by raps, vocals, >or other musicians. Is this asking too much? OK, here's one: DJ Spooky's Songs of a Dead Dreamer, on Asphodel. If you like this there's a world of cool stuff waiting for you, if you don't, and I've receommended it to plenty of people who just don't seem to get it, well, at least you've tried and you could probably safely say that you don't like DJ music and be done with it. And please, could we avoid the term "electronica" here if possible? It's an artificial term, I believe coined by a Rolling Stone writer. None of the DJ's or electronic musicians I know in the scene will use the word. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 01:55:51 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 01:16:36 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyYbb-0006Jh-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:16:35 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:39:01 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Re: I just can't stop writing today... To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33F16495.4178@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: <"Q0MCcD.A.ctF.BzW8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/247 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:16:35 -0700 X-UIDL: 1f63fcf912cd4e319de77e8c7129bea7 Dave Trenkel wrote, in part: > As far as jazz, geez, there's at least a hundred astounding keyboard > soloists. I've been listening to the new re-issue of Miles Davis "Black > Beauty" lately, highly recommended BTW, a great live record, and was struck > by how great and interesting a keyboardist Chick Corea was before getting > infected by Scientology. Also, there's Marilyn Crispell, McCoy Tyner, Cecil > Taylor, Joe Zawinul, John Medeski, etc, etc I've been steeping myself in Miles' "In a Silent Way" for the last few weeks, and find that Zawinul and Corea get most of my attention. > The earliest modular analogs make some really > terrific variable and "expressive" sounds. The next generation monophonics > like the minimoog and ARP odyssey made excellent solo instruments, I think > there's a significant body of work from the '70's to support this, Zawinul, > Corea, Hammer, etc. Sample-playback synths are basically a blight on the > face of creative music, but the newer generation of physical modeling > synths, like the korg prophecy or yamaha VL70 are wonderful solo > instruments, I have a VL70m and it really has a lot of expressive > possibilities, in fact this instrument has rekindled my interest in > monophonic keyboard soloing. Let me slip in a reminder of the virtues of a class of synthesizer you didn't mention: FM and Phase Distortion (which I maintain is the same thing with different labels). They're not as intuitive to program as analog devices, and they may lack the sonic virtues of physical modeling synths, but my Casio VZs are capable of both very strange and very expressive sounds. -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Mon Mar 09 09:21:41 1998 >From kflint Mon Mar 9 00:10:30 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBxdg-0004dk-00; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:10:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970813004205.007b56d0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:42:05 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: a woman's ears In-Reply-To: <9803080946.0DPZ000@dinosaur.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nn3QhB.A.9nD.6J6A1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3981 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:10:24 -0800 X-UIDL: 2321898e32216b23dcd43a243965522d Thanks Bryan and Sarajane for bringing this point to light. I too absolutely have those times when I simply must leave the room or make it stop! Other women I know tend to agree when it comes to high, screechy stuff. I personally find that this is increased when I'm PMS-ing. I would have to say that my musical tastes don't tend to be in the "screechy", dissonant realm. I don't necessarily atribute this fact to a difference in hearing though, but who knows... I do however have some tollerance sometimes for this as I need to to work in a music store when the kids get out of school. As for that study, I've heard a little about it but I'd like to hear some more. What little I do know of it leaves me a little skeptical because of the means with which the subjects were tested. Anyway, it's very interesting. Where would this study leave bisexual women, fem lesbians, or gay men? ha ha Maybe this is why gay men and middle-class white male loopers apparently have so much in common... JUST KIDDING!!! smiles, Corynne At 09:46 AM 3/8/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Dear Loopers > The recent "my girlfriend" thread reminds me of the old folk song >"momma don't allow no guitar playing round here". But so far, no >one has mentioned the fact that there are actual physical differences >in HOW men and women perceive sound....for instance, female ears >are able to hear in higher ranges than most males. This effect is especially >pronounced at times of hormonal surges, and many women find those >high (screechy) notes physically uncomfortable. The biological reasons >(and I'm not making this up; I've read the medical/scientific studies on this) >behind this seem to be pointing towards millions of years of conditioning >females to hear those babies (high pitched and loud in their frequencies) >and it causes a certain biological trigger (make it stop!). This is especially >true of REPETITIVE (ie loops, anyone?) loud, high pitched sound. And while >women, especially when in MOM mode, have a certain amount of tolerance >built up for repetition (Mom? Mom? Mom? Can I...Mom?)they may not always >choose to seek it out recreationally.... > And did anyone see the article in the newspaper this week about the >inner ear differences (structureally speaking) between lesbian inner ears >and heterosexual female inner ears? Seems the lesbian ears are more >like men's ears......perhaps because of hormonal differences while still >in the womb.... > However, NO sweeping generalities can be made when talking about >sensory awareness---I'm female, and I LOVE many kinds of loop music, >even loud, even odd pitches....I lived with a bagpiper once, who played > in the house on bad weather days. and it was great! And 17 years >of listening to Bryan's music has not bored me---though there are the >occasional high notes that drive me from the room.... > Sarajane Helm > > > > > From ???@??? Mon Mar 09 09:21:43 1998 >From kflint Mon Mar 9 00:10:57 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBxe9-0004hH-00; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:10:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970813005201.007afd40@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:52:01 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: RE: a woman's ears In-Reply-To: <01BD4A9B.81C1F400.lahatch@dnai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-xewZB.A.UpD.BK6A1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3982 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:10:53 -0800 X-UIDL: ec9cbc8e8573edc8fc09db90a6a037e5 Thanks Laurie, I also notice that some male friends were able to listen and enjoy much louder, higher frequencies then I can deal with. This point also goes along with my last post on this topic. As for your other point about articulation, I think your on to it... smiles, Corynne At 02:05 PM 3/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >Sarajane, thanks for writing! You've touched on something I've experienced, >but did not realize had been scientifically documented. (S's post is copied at >end...) > >Invariably, xy's I've played with have been able to handle louder high >frequency volumes onstage than I, some by a considerable margin. (Maybe that's >one reason why I'm into bass %^). This doesn't mean I don't like it totally >intense and balls to the wall! Plus, overall I think my musical tastes are >usually as out there as anybody's. So it may well be that, as you suggest >Sarajane, in some situations volume can have more to do with discomfort than >musical content. Non-musicians may not necessarily be able to articulate the >difference. > >However, some people are just more into mainstream stuff than others (re the >bedraggled "Anti-Spouse Forces Theorem" thread). Developing a taste for more >fringe and eclectic music is a not only a function of personality, but also of >experience and exposure. For instance, recently when I listened to what had >been a favorite cd for the first time in about 15 years - I was really >surprised how slick and unimaginative it sounded now. (I got off on *that*?) > Guess it's mostly because I've been listening to and playing more experimental >stuff in the interim. That's a good sign! > >The point is, if one's significant other/friend/partner isn't a musician or >audiophile, maybe their lack of musical "sophistication" lies in part because >they haven't had the advantage or pleasure of learning to listen in the ways >that we as musicians do. If one of the reasons they are with us is because of >our musical natures, maybe we can more systematically (and patiently!) help >them develop that part of themselves as well. > >laurie > > >Sarajane's post: >Dear Loopers > The recent "my girlfriend" thread reminds me of the old folk song >"momma don't allow no guitar playing round here". But so far, no >one has mentioned the fact that there are actual physical differences >in HOW men and women perceive sound....for instance, female ears >are able to hear in higher ranges than most males. This effect is especially >pronounced at times of hormonal surges, and many women find those >high (screechy) notes physically uncomfortable. The biological reasons >(and I'm not making this up; I've read the medical/scientific studies on this) >behind this seem to be pointing towards millions of years of conditioning >females to hear those babies (high pitched and loud in their frequencies) >and it causes a certain biological trigger (make it stop!). This is especially >true of REPETITIVE (ie loops, anyone?) loud, high pitched sound. And while >women, especially when in MOM mode, have a certain amount of tolerance >built up for repetition (Mom? Mom? Mom? Can I...Mom?)they may not always >choose to seek it out recreationally.... > And did anyone see the article in the newspaper this week about the >inner ear differences (structureally speaking) between lesbian inner ears >and heterosexual female inner ears? Seems the lesbian ears are more >like men's ears......perhaps because of hormonal differences while still >in the womb.... > However, NO sweeping generalities can be made when talking about >sensory awareness---I'm female, and I LOVE many kinds of loop music, >even loud, even odd pitches....I lived with a bagpiper once, who played > in the house on bad weather days. and it was great! And 17 years >of listening to Bryan's music has not bored me---though there are the >occasional high notes that drive me from the room.... > Sarajane Helm > > > > > > > From ???@??? Mon Mar 09 09:21:44 1998 >From kflint Mon Mar 9 00:11:03 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yBxeC-0004hh-00; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:10:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970813010520.007bca70@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:05:20 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: RE: a woman's ears In-Reply-To: References: <01BD4A9B.81C1F400.lahatch@dnai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mHf0g.A.tpD.EK6A1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3983 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:10:56 -0800 X-UIDL: 8090ac9d24fda5259803978378d712e6 From your experience as an engineer, do you find that (in a loose general sense) men tend to listen to music with more treble than women do? I had some male friends who would listen to music with the treble really up there and at loud volumes. This simply made me cringe and leave. This unfortunately, happened several times until I'd get sick of yelling at them to turn it down and they'd get sick of hearing me... smiles, Corynne P.S. I'd always ask them how they could deal with it but I never got an answer, just a surprized questioning "huh?, what's wrong with it?" At 07:21 PM 3/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 2:05 PM -0800 3/8/98, Laurie Hatch wrote: >>Invariably, xy's I've played with have been able to handle louder high >>frequency volumes onstage than I, some by a considerable margin. (Maybe >>that's >>one reason why I'm into bass %^). This doesn't mean I don't like it totally >>intense and balls to the wall! Plus, overall I think my musical tastes are >>usually as out there as anybody's. So it may well be that, as you suggest >>Sarajane, in some situations volume can have more to do with discomfort than >>musical content. Non-musicians may not necessarily be able to articulate the >>difference. > >Just so's you know.....As I understand the physiological issue, it's not >volume or high frequencies that cause the discomfort in women. It's >particular types of non-harmonic distortion in the audio system, which will >tend to be worse at higher volume. I've seen several discussions of this in >audio engineering journals, usually under the context of how to get a wider >customer base for audio products. > >These inharmonic distortions add frequency components to the sound in a >particular way that women tend to have a negative reaction to while men >typically don't notice. It is very common with cheap home/audio stereos, >cheap PA systems, cheap music gear, etc. It also happens in more expensive >gear that isn't designed very well. As the volume is turned up on these >systems, the distortions start to happen, and women will start to find it >unpleasant for physiological reasons. On cleaner systems that don't >generate these distortions, the discomfort doesn't happen. > >This is where the misconceptions that women don't like loud music comes >from. Some guy with a shoddy $100 car stereo has it turned up to where he's >got tons of crossover and IMD distortion coming out of his crappy speakers, >and his girlfriend demands that he turn it down. If he hadn't been such a >cheapskate and bought a decent stereo in the first place, she would stick >around longer. (or at least wouldn't complain about the volume...) > >Men will also experience this type of discomfort, although it is less >pronounced and takes longer. If you ever experienced "ear fatigue" while >mixing or listening to a walkman or something, I think that's it. On a >better quality audio system, you can last much longer. > >It's something to think about when choosing gear. You might save a few >bucks and alienate half your potential audience in the process. And if you >are stupid enough to think it's that the women just don't get your music, >well, you are probably just stupid...... > >kim > >______________________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html >http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com > > > > > From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 01:55:51 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 01:17:33 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyYcX-0006Pm-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:17:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:17:06 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Magazines (Was: Re: Travis' comments: Cream et. al.) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33F16D82.291F@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199708122024.NAA20622@apple.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"ULseZD.A.6vF.izW8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/248 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:17:33 -0700 X-UIDL: cf8e8679740208d983a2fd6d3b5d5369 T.W. Hartnett wrote, in part: > That said, GP seems to have been dumbed down in recent years, reflecting > the declining interest in the technical aspects of guitar playing in pop > music. "Seems"? SEEMS? I let my subscription lapse after they dropped Warren Sirota's column and turned it into a magazine about art direction... I resubscribed when the content seemed to improve and they offered a really cheap deal, figuring it was worth it just for the record reviews. But when it ran out again a few months back, I had a couple issues still unread. It's truly a shame that a major music information resource such as GP was ten years ago should become such a piece of crap. The good side of GP's decline, for me, was the realization that, since my interests were apparently so narrow that they no longer warranted coverage in a paper publication, I'd have to get Internet access. My very first Web search was for the keywords "MIDI guitar"-- I didn't _know_ there'd be a mailing list devoted to it, but I thought it pretty likely. Of course, that search turned up Paolo's Digital Guitar Digest... and that's where I read about Looper's Delight... and my need for paper publications has _greatly_ diminished. :-) -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 09:08:55 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 02:20:45 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyZbg-0001bF-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:20:44 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:17:56 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: LOOPING, remember? Resent-Message-ID: <"HO79OB.A.NYB.TvX8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/249 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:20:44 -0700 X-UIDL: 82ca215cb66306edb070e002e6f2db23 It's actually completely against my nature to post this, but I'm a bit more concerned about our own survival at the moment than free speech. Looper's Delight is not exactly a highly regarded entity on my service provider, as mailing lists apparently stress the mail servers. We already got blamed for a server crash once, which wasn't our fault, but the list was turned off for a week as a result. So could we please veer back to the usual topic? We had a huge amount of posts in the past 24 hours, a great many of which were not at all related to the list topic. If we're gonna get booted, let's do it because we're filling the bandwidth with discussions about looping. If you've drifted well away from that, please try to police yourselves and continue in email or the alt newsgroups. thanks, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 09:08:56 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 07:04:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wye2g-0004ib-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:04:54 -0700 Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F19B80B@mail.exapps.com> From: David Kirkdorffer To: Looper's Delight Subject: Do comparisons lead to false truths? (was RE: Guitar good, DJ's b ad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:01:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"lVrI9B.A.ZFE.43b8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/250 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:04:54 -0700 X-UIDL: 916f337fdc304f18fecdfdece7b2485c This thread is getting quite philisphical and possibly instructive. The question I want to ask is -- if 1 Billion people are "moved" by the sound of an electric guitar, does that make the experience of being "moved" by a violin felt in just 50 people less "moving" to these 50 people. Briefly, is their experience any less "moving" than the experence felt by the guitar fans? If you say "No," then I think this is acknowledging how individual emotional responses are not "measurably comparable" as say the weights bassoons and hammond organs :-) If you say "Yes," then I don't know what you are measuring. Please explain this to me. I feel the desire to compare A to B is compelling and oftentimes useful, but ultimately denies both A and B the truths of their "Now" experience. If I think to myself while I'm playing guitar and I'm "sailing" with my muse, "I wonder if MY HERO sails 'higher' than me when (S)HE is sailing?" doesn't that steal from MY 'sailing' experience? I'm not a student of philosophy, and maybe this thread is wearing thin now, but I suspect the philosphy of comparisons can dig us into some complex territory. david > -----Original Message----- > From: T.W. Hartnett [SMTP:hartnett.t@apple.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 11:13 AM > To: Looper's Delight > Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) > > > > > I don't think anyone can argue with statements such as "I'd rather > hear a > really good musician on one instrument than a really bad one on > another". > > It might be more interesting to compare musicians at the top of the > skill > spectrum, rather than at opposing ends. > > Travis From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:05:04 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 11:20:30 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyi20-00078t-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:20:28 -0700 Sender: kcorbet@post.smu.edu (Kim Corbet) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:15:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Kim Corbet Sender: Kim Corbet Reply-To: Kim Corbet Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Kbk8Z.A.gUG.jnf8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/253 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:20:28 -0700 X-UIDL: 1b6b1158335b5fb3e44b11e0bc0eb32c > Oh, yeah, in a previous incarnation I wanted to BE Jan Hammer, his stuff > with Mahavishnu, and on Bolly Cobham's Spectrum record totally kills me. ................no doubt. no chigging doubt. Jan Hammer's keyboard work is THE thing that kept me in the keyboard game for the last 30 years. But even HE says the reason he prefered the mini-moog as his solo rig was because it sounded so much like a guitar...perhaps to blend with Mahajohn and violinist Jerry Goodman, who ALSO set up his sound w/wah-wah to sound like yet another guitar. I remember seeing the Mahavishnu Orch in Memphis in '72 and was listening to J.M. play a seering solo and realized I was also hearing a rhythm guitar only to find Jerry over there chunking b9 chords in typical funky guitar style. > Try sitting over McCoy Tyner's right shoulder, then tell me that "PLAYING > the keyboard is boring", like all other things, it's the musician not > instrument. Besides, maybe I'm just funny this way, but I *listen* to > musicians, and could generally give a fuck about how they look when > playing... ...........well, actually, I have sat close to the big man's shoulder at the Caravan, hoping to catch him breaking one of those huge low strings he's supposed to be capable of. And that may explain why he generally plays with his back to the audience so you at least see Something happening....I congratulate you on being able to divorce yourself from how someone looks when they play. I have trouble doing that. When I watch myself play on tape, I always see some guy tweaking gear and not "reaching out" to the audience until I turn to more theatrical approach and start to move and work the crowd in an anarchistic way. Maybe that's it...I think the guitar is so much more dramatic on stage than keyboard. It's not a sound thing necessarily. Perhaps another Live v. Recording issue. But, come on, the nuance of string bending and pull offs and working the amp is so evocative compared to the stiffness of the typical keyboard. I'm sorry, but mod wheels and pitch benders are totally lame. Ribbon controlers. When they get that more together, then, maybe. > >I love my Nord keyboard, but for sheer playing pleasure, I'd much rather > >PLAY my strat or P-bass or Modulus 5-string. It just feeeels good, man. > > But what is your main instrument? I mean, soloing, and doing it the level > of Jan Hammer or Van Halen or whatever, takes a certain level of > accomplishment on the instrument. Could it be that the > strat or modulus (I'm jealous, man, I love modulus basses) feels better > because you play it better? ............................I grew up on accordion and trombone and the horn is definitely my main ax and though I've found a great set-up to fulfill my R&B soul, I've had the misfortune of growing up in the Rock and Roll era. Although, frankly, I'm not a good guitarist (yet), my love for the instrument and it's expressive and technical potential within the context of our culture and audience expectations gives guitar a significance and power beyond what would seem *normal*. I very much look forward to the day the Modulus feels as easy and natural as the horn does. Hey, then maybe I'll change my mind about all this stuff. No telling how much desire is affecting my attitude. D E S I R E changes everything. From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:04:57 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 10:34:24 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyhJP-0003Ta-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:34:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970813122739.00696610@pop.flash.net> X-Sender: jbstudio@pop.flash.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:27:39 -0600 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: John Michael Beard Subject: Re: Guitar good,etc,Now Jobson Solo In-Reply-To: References: <33F0C19F.7963@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ODXFkD.A.fyC.07e8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/251 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:34:23 -0700 X-UIDL: 20714ead4d8005abe077d3db40961b33 At 02:58 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, future perfect wrote: > >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. >> >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5. >> Dave >> >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. >An amazing piece. > Doug Michael > Also his solo on Zappa's "I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth" from Live In New York [the title track of Lather is the same]. A beautiful song. I'm a guitarist by the way, and if nothing else it's an easier instrument for me to play than any other. From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:04:58 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 10:42:06 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyhQo-0004FK-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:42:02 -0700 Message-Id: <9708138714.AA871494040@fsmtp.faulkcomp.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 12:32:51 -0600 From: "mmason" To: Subject: CGDAEG tuning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KKcVLD.A.BnD.DEf8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/252 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:42:02 -0700 X-UIDL: c03fb567632a0a5f01458ccaa16b0529 Travis wrote: >> As someone who plays in CGDAEG, and who played in EADGBE for a decade << Did you take a Guitar Craft class, Travis? Jay or Boris mmason@faulkcomp.com From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:05:06 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 11:38:42 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyiJc-0000z1-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:38:40 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970813143610.0070eb74@dharma.mitre.org> X-Sender: seligman@dharma.mitre.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:36:10 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Len Seligman Subject: JamMan memory upgrade $65 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UaF7MD.A.Gk.D5f8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/254 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:38:40 -0700 X-UIDL: cefab9cc13948b418216d8a6f2a994c3 I have an extra set of Motorola memory ICs for the JamMan which upgrade it from 8 to 32 seconds of looping. I installed a set without any problem, following the instructions in the JamMan manual. Lexicon charges around $175 a set, but I found these at a chip graveyard; the only hitch was I had to buy a bunch of chips. I only have one set left, however, if multiple people respond and are interested, I could make another buy. Please respond directly to me and not to the whole list. Thanks and happy looping, Len Seligman From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:05:06 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 11:46:37 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyiRH-0001lm-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:46:35 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:39:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Kim Corbet Subject: Re: LOOPING, remember? To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nqfAlC.A.5DB.D-f8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/255 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:46:35 -0700 X-UIDL: ad4e493ce18a5701bcb897cb1a52b047 > It's actually completely against my nature to post this... > ...police yourselves Get up the side, let the man through. - soul coughing From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:05:11 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 17:54:40 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyoBS-0004KG-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:54:38 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708140049.RAA24111@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: OPINION SPAM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:49:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Dave Trenkel" at Aug 12, 97 11:26:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x7IStD.A.KpD.eYl8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/256 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:54:38 -0700 X-UIDL: 35667faa08fa41232d5cbcdbe90f7413 Folks, don't forget Kim (our benevolent moderator/owner) specifically asked us to try talking about something other than hardware for a change. Only he has the right to tell us what we can't and can talk about here. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:05:12 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 18:07:05 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyoNT-0005NX-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:07:03 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708140101.SAA24257@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:01:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199708122229.PAA16960@apple.com> from "T.W. Hartnett" at Aug 12, 97 05:31:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3Z-IU.A.upE.Ukl8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/257 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:07:03 -0700 X-UIDL: ad1e35e8df3495da269a27937b2aa03f > Actually, I think there's a lot to be gained, because I think it's easy > to find consensus on the statement "Pat Metheny and Gary Burton are > equally expressive, despite the limitations of their respective > instruments", yet there's much criticism of various electronic > instruments and effects processors because of some niggling feature that > isn't present, be it 24-bit resolution, velocity sensitivity, only 8 > seconds of sampling time, the inability to map all paramenters to CV > controllers, etc. > This list, and the MI in general, spend a great deal of time discussing > the technological aspects of instruments and music. All variety of > equipment is criticized because of some perceived terminal flaw. Look at > the piano--no pitch bending, only one sound, doesn't stay in tune, no > aftertouch sensitivity, no doubling of pitches--it's full of limitations > which would sink a synth, particularly if it cost $8k and weighed 500 > pounds. > If we can agree that Gary Burton might be able to get some meaningful > work done with an instrument as woeful and feature-poor as the vibes, > perhaps the rest of us might be able to make some headway with whatever > we have, despite the inability to, say, have three concurrent loops of > different length playing back at the same time. Even if we're playing a > synthesizer. Even so there's not much we can say other than the truly great artists always transcend whatever we perceive as limitations in the tools they use. That's why any attempt to say whether, for example, Pat Metheny is a more expressive musician than Gary Burton because of their respective choices ot tools is not likely to be fruitful. Perhaps it would be more fruitful to talk about how we can get maximum expression from the tools we have at our disposal; which is a constant topic of discussion on both this list and Digital Guitar. ^_^ Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:05:13 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 18:52:25 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyp5M-0001AN-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:52:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:47:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Marzzz@aol.com Message-ID: <970813214622_956417323@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good,etc,Now Jobson Solo Resent-Message-ID: <"86Gv4.A.z1.xPm8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/258 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:52:24 -0700 X-UIDL: 3d7e294dcdc3ffd8215fc9e12da68b09 In a message dated 8/13/97 1:35:31 PM, somebody wrote: <<>There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. >An amazing piece. > Doug Michael > Also his solo on Zappa's "I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth" from Live In New York [the title track of Lather is the same]. A beautiful song.>> You can also add his Minimoog solo on the track "Rondevous 6:02" from the live "Night After Night" album, and the semi-solo synth piece, "Alaska" from the original UK album..... Jobson was in the position to grasp the torch of keyboard playing from the failing hands of Emerson and Wakeman, but the demise of the popularity of "progressive rock" caused him to go into writing commercial jingles after 1985. No one else has even come close to his abilities and musicality (IMHO). Well, he did win some Clio awards....but I can't help feeling disappointed by the seemingly massive waste of an enourmous talent. Marshall (out of lurk mode, keyboardist for 20-some years, guitarist for 3) From ???@??? Wed Aug 13 23:05:13 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 13 20:43:58 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wyqpJ-0000kU-00; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:43:57 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970814034919.0094c834@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:49:19 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: OPINION SPAM Resent-Message-ID: <"oyoZ8D.A.he.Q5n8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/259 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:43:57 -0700 X-UIDL: e92729b220d794e8b7fe3085e6188ade At 05:49 PM 8/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >Folks, don't forget Kim (our benevolent moderator/owner) specifically >asked us to try talking about something other than hardware for a >change. > >Only he has the right to tell us what we can't and can talk about here. Thanks Paolo, but I choose not to take that role. I'm really not interested in any sort of dictatorial powers, and I won't stop anyone from saying whatever they like. I leave it to you folks to figure out what will be talked about here, and I leave it to all of you to keep it in line. PERSONALLY, I would prefer that we tried to keep the topic somewhere near the subject of looping, since that's what the list is about and there isn't any other place on the net to talk about that. (that I know of, anyway.) There are plenty of other places for guitar players and keyboard players to flame each other, or whatever it was yesterday. If you want to do that, feel free, but please do it someplace more appropriate. I also would personally prefer that we show more respect for the wide variety of different approaches and styles of music represented here. We have a great opportunity to learn from each other, and I'd hate to see that spoiled becuase some poorly represented group gets tired of dealing with immature tirades everytime they try to speak up. I agree with the frustration Randy felt in posting this "opinion spam" thread. Listening to someone go on and on and on and yet on some more about why they don't like someone else's opinion, lifestyle, music, etc. is very tedious. Nobody gains from that. I would much rather hear about something you like and why you like it, so that I can learn to enjoy it too, without it coming by way of an attack on somebody else. thanks, kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 11:04:04 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 10:12:17 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz3RX-0000vC-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:12:15 -0700 Message-Id: <199708141707.KAA32444@apple.com> Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 12:10:09 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"5X8prB.A.yf.rtz8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/263 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:12:15 -0700 X-UIDL: bb710e3ac89e2876062c1b402d647602 >BTW: Travis Hartnett: you are obviously some guitar choade from Texas, the >state of sixty million guys who play Strat in crappy blues bar bands. You >are in no position to make statements about the validity of keyboards as a >solo instrument, in rock or any other "style". Just because Joe Bob >Billy's Stevie Ray Tribute Band (appearing live at the Spicy Iguana) >doesn't have some bespectacled wonk behind a stack of keyboard gear and >MIDI rack pieces, doesn't mean that guitars are just automatically WAY >better as solo instruments, etc. Please remain in Texas, land of >endlessly-recycled electric blues played by sneering white guys. We're all >happier that way. > Ah. It all makes sense now. In recognition of the growing level of frustration regarding the keyboard thread, I've stopped commenting, but I will (briefly) respond to the above. I'm not trying to advance the theory that one instrument is superior to the other, nor that the residents of any particular geographical area are more or less cultured. Such arguments reveal much about the poster, while doing little to address the subject at hand. My initial motivation in the guitar/keyboards/other instruments debate was to try and get some insight into the keyboard culture. Looper's Delight is seemingly dominated by guitarists, and I was hoping to get a break from the endless whining about how Lexicon or Oberheim should make great gear and sell it for peanuts, or how to use a Ground Control pedal to control either device, or how Robert Fripp should hang it up. I hoped that among the members of LD, who share a common interest in one strange area of music, I could find some answers to questions that have puzzled me over the years, including how different instrumentalists approach their respective instrument. Unfortunately, the discussion soon became bitter and defensive. We now return to our regular scheduled program. Travis Hartnett From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:49 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 12:16:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz5Nk-0002pA-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:16:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199708141909.MAA09544@apple.com> Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 14:11:57 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"XH74rD.A.01B.9f18z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/272 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:16:28 -0700 X-UIDL: 2be812908ed93ef818d7a63f0b216571 >>The question is: without MIDI clicks, how can a loop be synced into music >>with live drums? I'm looking for new APPROACHES to this problem >>here...anyone? Even drummer who are used to playing with some sort of click track can have problems hearing a loop clearly enough in a performance situation. We've found it helpful for the drummer to heavily eq the loop to insure that some sonic reference point comes through loud and clear. If you were to listen to the monitor by itself, after this eq, it usually sounds undesirable, but for practical sync purposes it works pretty well. It's amazing what a parametric eq can do when deployed in the mid-range frequencies. Travis Hartnett From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 09:50:43 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 08:07:51 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz1V5-0007C8-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:07:47 -0700 X-Sender: gorton@g.imap.itd.umich.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:02:58 -0400 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: gorton@umich.edu (Russell Gorton) Subject: help wanted -- technique tips, please Resent-Message-ID: <"JF9_3C.A.vaG.Q4x8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/260 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:07:47 -0700 X-UIDL: 26d2fcd052fc0a92fa378344b4eb6fc4 This post is not about philosophy. One of my MANY musical outlets is as utility man playing with the standard power trio (drums bass strat). This summer, my instruments of choice are a Fender Rhodes model 73 piano and a Korean telecaster copy (affectionately dubbed "telewanker".) I would like to sync up a repeating sampled riff (from Rhodes or telewanker), captured with an Echoplex DP, with the drummer. So far, I've tried playing the riff, letting it loop on a monitor near the drum kit, and seeing if he can follow along. Things quickly get too loud and we drift. Then I tried using a momentary-switch pedal into the Beat sync jack, using Mute-Multiply to "trigger" the loop start with the pedal. Let drummer work pedal. This works, kinda, but there is ALWAYS a little delay between the pedal kick and the start of the loop. We've tried many ways to anticipate this delay, record the loop differently, use a different make of pedal, etc. Very frustrating. The question is: without MIDI clicks, how can a loop be synced into music with live drums? I'm looking for new APPROACHES to this problem here...anyone? Thanks... --Russell Gorton BTW: Travis Hartnett: you are obviously some guitar choade from Texas, the state of sixty million guys who play Strat in crappy blues bar bands. You are in no position to make statements about the validity of keyboards as a solo instrument, in rock or any other "style". Just because Joe Bob Billy's Stevie Ray Tribute Band (appearing live at the Spicy Iguana) doesn't have some bespectacled wonk behind a stack of keyboard gear and MIDI rack pieces, doesn't mean that guitars are just automatically WAY better as solo instruments, etc. Please remain in Texas, land of endlessly-recycled electric blues played by sneering white guys. We're all happier that way. From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 09:50:45 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 08:31:10 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz1rg-0000wY-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:31:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199708141533.IAA30512@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:30:52 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rh8ZwD.A.5e.5Oy8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/261 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:31:08 -0700 X-UIDL: fbbea9a93074d86e692f9b4591fb911a > This post is not about philosophy. WONDERFUL!!!!!! > I would like to sync up a repeating sampled riff (from Rhodes or > telewanker), captured with an Echoplex DP, with the drummer. > > So far, I've tried playing the riff, letting it loop on a monitor near the > drum kit, and seeing if he can follow along. Things quickly get too loud > and we drift. Plug the Echoplex into a mixer and make the drummer wear headphones. He/she will probably complain but at least he/she can turn it up as loud as he/she wants. > The question is: without MIDI clicks, how can a loop be synced into music > with live drums? I'm looking for new APPROACHES to this problem > here...anyone? Assuming the looping riff has a fairly constant tempo (i.e. loops around smoothly) the drummer *should* be able to follow it -- assuming he/she can heard it. And it will take a fair amount of discipline on the drummers part to *follow* the loop. Remember that in typical bands, the drummer sets the tempo, so having a drummer lock onto something else might take some practice. Good luck! Matt P.S. BTW, playing with a MIDI click isn't as evil as it sounds. The drummer in my last band found it somewhat liberating....after he got the hang of it. From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 09:50:46 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 09:34:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz2qj-0005T8-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:34:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCA8AE.6C8D32A0@mark.asisoftware.com> From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: help wanted -- technique tips, please Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:34:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CAq0e.A.wgE.mHz8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/262 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:34:13 -0700 X-UIDL: 7b7c415d2fc578828cb080f2e0a110ef Occasionally, I work with a drummer and a keyboardist who uses MIDI sequences. I asked the drummer how he feels about playing with a computerized time source. He said that the trick for him is to play a little quieter than the sequence. This allows him to hear the timing of the sequence and lock into its beat. Of course, his acoustic drum kit sounds much better than the sequenced drum track--to the point where I completely ignore the sequenced drums and lock into the real drums. Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com ---------- From: Matt McCabe[SMTP:mattm@bi-tech.com] Sent: Thursday, August 14, 1997 11:30 AM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please > This post is not about philosophy. WONDERFUL!!!!!! > I would like to sync up a repeating sampled riff (from Rhodes or > telewanker), captured with an Echoplex DP, with the drummer. > > So far, I've tried playing the riff, letting it loop on a monitor near the > drum kit, and seeing if he can follow along. Things quickly get too loud > and we drift. Plug the Echoplex into a mixer and make the drummer wear headphones. He/she will probably complain but at least he/she can turn it up as loud as he/she wants. > The question is: without MIDI clicks, how can a loop be synced into music > with live drums? I'm looking for new APPROACHES to this problem > here...anyone? Assuming the looping riff has a fairly constant tempo (i.e. loops around smoothly) the drummer *should* be able to follow it -- assuming he/she can heard it. And it will take a fair amount of discipline on the drummers part to *follow* the loop. Remember that in typical bands, the drummer sets the tempo, so having a drummer lock onto something else might take some practice. Good luck! Matt P.S. BTW, playing with a MIDI click isn't as evil as it sounds. The drummer in my last band found it somewhat liberating....after he got the hang of it. From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 02:27:51 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 18:58:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzBev-0003gl-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:58:37 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970813143610.0070eb74@dharma.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:34:32 +0100 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: JamMan memory upgrade $65 Resent-Message-ID: <"A8oA2.A.tLD.Bc78z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/282 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:58:37 -0700 X-UIDL: 80e7b76c7fc2bf87e77ea68caee4d843 Still have it? I'm interested. Le me know if you do. - Chris >I have an extra set of Motorola memory ICs for the JamMan which upgrade it >from 8 to 32 seconds of looping. I installed a set without any problem, >following the instructions in the JamMan manual. > >Lexicon charges around $175 a set, but I found these at a chip graveyard; >the only hitch was I had to buy a bunch of chips. > >I only have one set left, however, if multiple people respond and are >interested, I could make another buy. > >Please respond directly to me and not to the whole list. > >Thanks and happy looping, >Len Seligman From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:52 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 12:53:57 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz4ah-0006zx-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:25:47 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:36:38 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please Resent-Message-ID: <"rlMw-D.A.yzE.wi08z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/266 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:25:47 -0700 X-UIDL: 2564721c89ef13a7575dc2e14a2e4b69 >I would like to sync up a repeating sampled riff (from Rhodes or >telewanker), captured with an Echoplex DP, with the drummer. > >So far, I've tried playing the riff, letting it loop on a monitor near the >drum kit, and seeing if he can follow along. Things quickly get too loud >and we drift. > >Then I tried using a momentary-switch pedal into the Beat sync jack, using >Mute-Multiply to "trigger" the loop start with the pedal. Let drummer work >pedal. This works, kinda, but there is ALWAYS a little delay between the >pedal kick and the start of the loop. We've tried many ways to anticipate >this delay, record the loop differently, use a different make of pedal, >etc. Very frustrating. Another idea, is to let the drummer trigger your loops with some sort of drum trigger on a drum pad. It might be a little easier to start accurately than with a pedal. That should work in the beat sync jack of your echoplex, using the same Mute-multiply function. Make sure the delay isn't just you recording the loop late! People always do this: press record button, then start playing. The two have to occur at the same time! If you are hearing a delay between the trigger and the start of the loop, this might be what's going on. You might even want to put the echoplex in front of the drummer and let him record the loops for you! Or perhaps just give him a record button so that you still have the other controls. All the advice about hearing the loops is good too. I have that experience in recording. I play in time much better if the headphone mix has drums and bass (or whatever is keeping time) turned up much louder than me. Also, a drummer who has had a lot of experience playing with loops wrote a nice piece for us. It's posted on the "tips and tricks" area of the web site. You might want to have your drummer read that. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 02:27:51 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 19:09:25 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzBpM-0004aT-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:09:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:29:09 +0200 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) Subject: Re: MIDI drum set Resent-Message-ID: <"6V-8gB.A.zEE.fm78z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/283 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:09:24 -0700 X-UIDL: 0a10571ccf89d9257b28902f86422e2d Ok guys....it's not looping but it is gear related. You should investigate the work of a man from New Zealand named Philip Dadson. He has a group with a couple/three CD's out. The group is called From Scratch. I attented a rhythm workshop with him years ago. >From Scratch is a group/concept derived from Cornelius Cardew's Scratch Orchestra in England. ( Cardew was a heavy influence on Brian Eno, whom if we know our loop history showed Robert Fripp the tape loop system with two revoxes.And yes please don't flame me, I know that Terry Riley also discovered this. Not the first time in history that two people continents apart discovered similar concepts......hmmmm how many people cooked with fire, etc....) Anyhow From Scratch makes there own instruments. Dadson uses PVC pipes. They are tuned and mounted in rows, along with other percussive sources. He has no heads on them. He uses a " paddle" (very similar in appearance to a ping pong paddle) to strike the tubes. I'm not sure where you might mount your MIDI trigger, but this may be worth investigating. Dadson was written up many years ago in a wonderful journal called The Journal of Experimental Musical Instruments. They acheived some fame this year with the publication of a book and CD combo. I've subscribed for years after the University of Maryland Music Library stopped there subscription. They also have a web site. Good luck. Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:45 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 12:08:54 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz5GP-0001po-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:08:53 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:04:18 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Jack West CD Resent-Message-ID: <"PuUE8B.A.zIB.Za18z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/269 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:08:53 -0700 X-UIDL: 1341e0ed4b22abf214da3e3494ba65b4 Sorry people, I did not manage to follow your last big mail traffic - should I ? But I received a CD here, by Jack West and Curvature, called "Continuum", featuring Scott Proffitt (perc) and Calder Spanier (sax) For my ears, its solid acoustic guitar work, profiting of a Echoplex (even in the studio) to lay down chord work to allow soloing. I find it a brilliant example for loop based non "loop music" work, in the sense that it only sounds different from "ordinary" accoustic guitar works through Jacks nice personal playing style. Ahead Behind Music ABM011 Oakland 510-601-7932 / 912-354-1174 Greetings Matthias From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:46 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 12:10:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz5Hf-00021V-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:10:11 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:06:11 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please Resent-Message-ID: <"NyWbAC.A.7VB.Nc18z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/270 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:10:11 -0700 X-UIDL: 9fea2bc079a0c932cea5c81d46dd50fa Russell Gorton has an interesting problem: >I would like to sync up a repeating sampled riff (from Rhodes or >telewanker), captured with an Echoplex DP, with the drummer. > >So far, I've tried playing the riff, letting it loop on a monitor near the >drum kit, and seeing if he can follow along. Things quickly get too loud >and we drift. > >Then I tried using a momentary-switch pedal into the Beat sync jack, using >Mute-Multiply to "trigger" the loop start with the pedal. Let drummer work >pedal. This works, kinda, but there is ALWAYS a little delay between the >pedal kick and the start of the loop. We've tried many ways to anticipate >this delay, record the loop differently, use a different make of pedal, >etc. Very frustrating. Why dont you try to use his bass drum for syncing? Beat Sync accepts a sound signal as a trigger, too. This way you dont just start together but keep together afterwards. Could it be that your pedal only triggers when let go (opening instead of closing type) ? Your problem maybe is not exactly a technical one. The Loop starts with maximum 3 msec of delay after the trigger comes in, so this should not be audible. A possible problem is, how the (technical) loop start point is related to the recorded riff. In other words, if you are used to press Record slighty before the beat one for starting *and* stoping, you get a perfect loop as long as you play alone, but the internal start point is registered somewhat early. When the drummer hits the pedal, the loop starts at that point, not where you played beat one. You may check it by comparing the flash of the green dot to your sound, or by listening to a single loop (MUTE-INSERT) to see whether your riff really starts immediatly. I see 4 ways move your "one beat" to the loop start point: - correct after the recording with the StartPoint parameter (not reasonable on stage) - use trigger recording (parameter Threshold) - train to hit the Record key not only in the correct rythm, but also exactly at the one beat. - let the drummer start and record the guitar riff synced to his trigger pulse (set parameter Sync to "In" and press Record clearly before starting to play). This is probably the most exact way, but maybe not how you want to start your song. Hope this helps. Please comuncate what you discover, I suppose its an interesting case for many users. Matthias >BTW: Travis Hartnett: you are obviously some guitar choade from Texas, the >state of sixty million guys who play Strat in crappy blues bar bands. ... >Please remain in Texas... Please do not say such things on the list, its too personal and ofending. From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:47 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 12:12:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz5KE-0002MH-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:12:50 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708141906.MAA29570@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: Can't To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: w@waynesworld.ucsd.edu In-Reply-To: from "Russell Gorton" at Aug 14, 97 11:02:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0YyPAB.A.tgB.cd18z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/271 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:12:50 -0700 X-UIDL: e3a82efc3aff3bbe7d1229a6e7c1926d > --Russell Gorton > > BTW: Travis Hartnett: you are obviously some guitar choade from Texas, the > state of sixty million guys who play Strat in crappy blues bar bands. You > are in no position to make statements about the validity of keyboards as a > solo instrument, in rock or any other "style". Just because Joe Bob > Billy's Stevie Ray Tribute Band (appearing live at the Spicy Iguana) > doesn't have some bespectacled wonk behind a stack of keyboard gear and > MIDI rack pieces, doesn't mean that guitars are just automatically WAY > better as solo instruments, etc. Please remain in Texas, land of > endlessly-recycled electric blues played by sneering white guys. We're all > happier that way. Now now... I know Travis made some pretty provocative statements, but please, let's not sink to this level. Let's follow Kim's wishes for us to RESPECT each other. BTW, on the topic of Ambient Effects, the review of the tc electronics G-Force appears in the latest Digital Guitar Digest. Cheers, Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:48 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 12:16:11 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz5NP-0002mO-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:16:07 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:10:14 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Jack West CD Resent-Message-ID: <"qQ051C.A.f3B.Jg18z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/273 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:16:07 -0700 X-UIDL: 5f29768b50cfa65e95384487d20c9328 oh, I forgot to say that Jacks CD has a nice cover with a fine spiral on it. It particularely moved me, because on my "Musica AguArianA para pensar-se" I used a spiral, too and there had been some talk amongst loopers about spirals before. Just his spiral has pointers that show inward, whereas I understood my spiral to go outward... too philosophical? Matthias From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:50 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 12:29:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz5a8-0004Ha-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:29:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199708141932.MAA06039@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:30:08 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"32EVG.A.bpD.Jv18z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/274 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:29:17 -0700 X-UIDL: a2ecef8dfe615f9561620d8bec671a8e > From: Dave Trenkel > We don't specifically use a click, I program a simple percussion part that > fits into the material, and after a few weeks practice everything came > together quite well. It's a great way to expand the sound without adding > more people to the band... Great suggestion. That way if the "click" works it's way into the house mix it adds something musical instead of just annoying stick clicks. It's amazing how a simple programmed percussion part can add a lot of character and depth to a song. Matt P.S. I should mention that in my old band I used a lot of delay to supplement my rhythm guitar work and as long as the drummer could hear my guitar clearly he was able to lock onto the tempo. As with Dave's drummer, it helped that he had excellent meter. (I mention this because playing with a fixed delay time is similar to playing with a looped phrase -- although you have a little more room for error.) From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 11:04:05 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 10:58:30 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz4AC-0004cG-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:58:24 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.2.16.19970814124342.2fef6b22@texas.net> X-Sender: sharkey@texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (16) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:43:42 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: james rhodes Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qkL9YD.A.u3D.OY08z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/264 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:58:24 -0700 X-UIDL: 389cd35851f9b57783dbabc0aec94410 >Thanks... >--Russell Gorton > >BTW: Travis Hartnett: you are obviously some guitar choade from Texas, the >state of sixty million guys who play Strat in crappy blues bar bands. You >are in no position to make statements about the validity of keyboards as a >solo instrument, in rock or any other "style". Just because Joe Bob >Billy's Stevie Ray Tribute Band (appearing live at the Spicy Iguana) >doesn't have some bespectacled wonk behind a stack of keyboard gear and >MIDI rack pieces, doesn't mean that guitars are just automatically WAY >better as solo instruments, etc. Please remain in Texas, land of >endlessly-recycled electric blues played by sneering white guys. We're all >happier that way. > > > >your statement says more of you and less of Travis. your message seems to support the theory that not all the worlds retards are confined to Texas. james rhodes Stick/Keyboard/sneering/choade (damn now all i need is a Strat and a big fatty) > From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 11:27:37 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 11:19:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz4SR-0006GO-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:17:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.2.16.19970814125248.2fefd7b0@texas.net> X-Sender: sharkey@texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (16) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:52:48 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: james rhodes Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3ke8P.A.fsE.Xh08z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/265 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:17:15 -0700 X-UIDL: 9d802a8d80acd1cf5055057d05158559 Very frustrating. > >The question is: without MIDI clicks, how can a loop be synced into music >with live drums? I'm looking for new APPROACHES to this problem >here...anyone? > >Thanks... >--Russell Gorton > >this sneering choade suggest you find a drummer with meter...i know some Texas drummers that when they are not on the porch playing "Dueling Banjos" or wanking with their paisley teles, might be coaxed to venture into the uncharted world of musical taste... the infamous james rhodes From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:53 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 14:25:09 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz7OF-0006hl-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:25:07 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: help wanted -- technique tips, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bGxTiD.A.N0F.ga38z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/275 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:25:07 -0700 X-UIDL: 70c12e7e218557c2f293100334b76adf On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Russell Gorton wrote: > I would like to sync up a repeating sampled riff (from Rhodes or > telewanker), captured with an Echoplex DP, with the drummer. > The question is: without MIDI clicks, how can a loop be synced into music > with live drums? I'm looking for new APPROACHES to this problem > here...anyone? I seem to remember Matthias saying that the BeatSync jack in the back of the Echoplex could generate a pulse which could be piped out of the jack into a mixer, etc. You could run that into a mixer for the drummer. You could also try slaving a drum machine to the Echoplex, so that the Echoplex actually controls the tempo. Depending on how the 8ths/Beat control is set up, you could have the drummer play in a number of different ways. I know this still pretty much winds up as a MIDI click type of option, but it seems to me to be the best way around it. You could also try deliberately constructing highly rhythmic loops, built off of short-duration cycles with highly percussive content, so that the loops themselves are easier to hear as rhythmic elements. Still, it seem to me that if you're trying to get anyone (especially a drummer) to sync up to an electronically looped source, some sort of click is really the only way to go. Unless you've got the luxury of a consistently fine-tuned monitor mix and consistently easy-to-follow loops, it's probably going to be a perpetually uphill battle otherwise. There's an article on Zac Alford (current drummer for David Bowie in his jungle phase) in the current issue of _Modern Drummer_ magazine, which deals in great depth about the technicalities of playing to loops and sequences in a live performance context. --Andre From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:54 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 14:31:51 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz7Uj-0007P0-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:31:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:23:53 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: WOAH! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ITNAC.A.7dG.tg38z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/276 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:31:49 -0700 X-UIDL: 710a0637a73ce0464d2a3bafe66f0cdc Is there something in the air around here? Are the planets aligned in a particularly nefarious way? There's been more outright flaming and off-topic posting on this list over the last three or four days than in the entire one-year history of the list *combined*. Please, people, try to be respectful of one another. This list has always struck me as being significantly better-behaved than a lot of others, and I'd hate to see it degenerate into a morass of unrelated hostility. Like the phrase says: "Mean people SUCK!" So please don't. --Andre From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:55 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 14:54:09 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz7qI-0001S6-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:54:06 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970814214423.006c41b0@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:44:23 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: WOAH! Resent-Message-ID: <"yPFRTB.A.n3.j138z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/277 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:54:06 -0700 X-UIDL: 9197e499d3504ff9d113dcbad86b74d5 At 02:23 PM 8/14/97 -0700, The Man Himself wrote: >There's been more outright flaming and off-topic posting on this list over >the last three or four days than in the entire one-year history of the >list *combined*. Please, people, try to be respectful of one another. >This list has always struck me as being significantly better-behaved than >a lot of others, and I'd hate to see it degenerate into a morass of >unrelated hostility. > >Like the phrase says: "Mean people SUCK!" So please don't. Mean people also cause mass unsubscriptions to the list. A whole bunch of people left over the past few days. Sadly, at least one of them is a dj. Probably he could have answered some questions that people have, had he been asked politely rather than being challenged to defend his existence. kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:55 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 16:14:07 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz95h-0007E6-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:14:05 -0700 Message-ID: <19970814230831.12988.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [205.173.251.51] From: "alice crash" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: MIDI drum set Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:08:31 PDT Resent-Message-ID: <"hdib-D.A.sYG.-A58z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/278 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:14:05 -0700 X-UIDL: b91f87b54df1c6e9bb7080622073cf2b im playing drums with a homemade drum set. the frame is made of pvc pipe and the heads are plexiglass. ive glued pieso buzzers directly to the bottom side of the plastic heads. these i run through the ext. trigger system of an alesis d4. the triggers work great and im happy with the sounds. the only problem im having is the cracking of heads. has anyone ever used a system like this and if so are there any suggestions on the head problem? i would like to stay away from conventional triggers and heads. i would also like to save as much money as possible.. thank you alice ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:56 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 16:21:34 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz9Cv-00002G-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:21:33 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: MIDI drum set Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:17:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 Encoding: 29 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"lu8QwB.A.AFH.3I58z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/279 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:21:33 -0700 X-UIDL: 5909771e6159190128b18b8a6fff5589 Plexiglas will split with impact. I put a piece on a door to keep a dog from chewing. She head butted the Plexiglas and shattered it. What about the plastic buckets that street drummers use? >---------- >From: alice crash >Reply To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >Sent: Thursday, August 14, 1997 7:08 PM >To: John_Ott@ATK.COM >Subject: MIDI drum set > >im playing drums with a homemade drum set. the frame is made of pvc pipe >and the heads are plexiglass. ive glued pieso buzzers directly to the >bottom side of the plastic heads. these i run through the ext. trigger >system of an alesis d4. the triggers work great and im happy with the >sounds. the only problem im having is the cracking of heads. has anyone >ever used a system like this and if so are there any suggestions on the >head problem? i would like to stay away from conventional triggers and >heads. i would also like to save as much money as possible.. thank you >alice > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From ???@??? Thu Aug 14 17:24:56 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 16:45:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wz9Zn-00020W-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:45:11 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970815000028.0069f178@svars1.simi-valley.ate.slb.com> X-Sender: cavaleri@svars1.simi-valley.ate.slb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:00:28 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Joe Cavaleri Subject: Re: MIDI drum set Resent-Message-ID: <"EjAHhC.A.MaB.yd58z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/280 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:45:11 -0700 X-UIDL: 1c4fbe0df93320b07cf857460a6b33a9 You might try to affix some sort of rubber or rubber-like substance to the plex. (automotive gasket?) This should also relieve stress on you wrists. joe At 04:08 PM 8/14/97 PDT, you wrote: >im playing drums with a homemade drum set. the frame is made of pvc pipe >and the heads are plexiglass. ive glued pieso buzzers directly to the >bottom side of the plastic heads. these i run through the ext. trigger >system of an alesis d4. the triggers work great and im happy with the >sounds. the only problem im having is the cracking of heads. has anyone >ever used a system like this and if so are there any suggestions on the >head problem? i would like to stay away from conventional triggers and >heads. i would also like to save as much money as possible.. thank you >alice > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 02:27:50 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 17:37:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzAOf-00067H-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:37:45 -0700 Message-ID: <19970815003216.11550.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [205.173.251.51] From: "alice crash" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: MIDI drums Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:32:16 PDT Resent-Message-ID: <"EiI1TC.A.8bF.OP68z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/281 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:37:45 -0700 X-UIDL: d69748b840591e3c4d679a34a8c4dedd Thanks for the input on the midi drums. i failed to mention that i have 1/8 inch rubber gasket material on the heads of the drums. the reason i havent used a plastic bucket situation is that im trying to minimize the acoustic sound involved. im looking for a low noise preferably easy to move head. the set is desined to break down for transportation. thanks again. alice ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 02:27:53 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 14 21:53:50 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzEOT-0005FX-00; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:53:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199708150449.VAA04604@f37.hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [205.173.251.10] From: "alice crash" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: MIDI drums Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:49:54 PDT Resent-Message-ID: <"zEu5mB.A.6tE.DB-8z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/284 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:53:49 -0700 X-UIDL: ec9a8f3a504566931c3b8bb03c507206 Thanks again for the input on the drum set. i found alot of the suggestions usefull. i have another question involving the alesis d4. with the drum set were using we have the ability to set up a different "set" for each song, with some overlapping. is there a way to set the gain, v-curve, crosstalk, ect for each song? we are using midi sequencers that already load the wave samples for individual songs. the "sets we have programed seem to need variablity in each head. am i doing something wrong? is there some sort of dump i can generate for each song? alice ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 02:27:55 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 15 02:01:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzIGW-00008O-00; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:01:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:09:22 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Re: MIDI drum set To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33F41CC2.4C1C@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: <"rsE_g.A.RNH.2oB9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/285 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:01:52 -0700 X-UIDL: 79d56b9f464c0e7add86b28ca77e0e1d Patrick Smith wrote, in part: > > Ok guys....it's not looping but it is gear related. You should investigate > the work of a man from New Zealand named Philip Dadson. [interesting stuff snipped, regretfully] > Anyhow From Scratch makes there own instruments. Dadson uses PVC pipes. > They are tuned and mounted in rows, along with other percussive sources. He > has no heads on them. He uses a " paddle" (very similar in appearance to a > ping pong paddle) to strike the tubes. I'm not sure where you might mount > your MIDI trigger, but this may be worth investigating. > > Dadson was written up many years ago in a wonderful journal called The > Journal of Experimental Musical Instruments. [snip] > They also have a web site. Good luck. I've been toying with the idea of PVC pipe for instruments myself, so this really tickled me. I went looking for the Web site, and didn't find it (got the URL handy?). What I did find tickled me just as much-- the Web site for the I-Cube system. I quote the introductory blurb: "Expand your horizons with the I-Cube, the ultimate Midi controller for musicians, DJs, dancers and interactive artists. The I-Cube lets you control your Midi set-up using almost any surface, space or movement. Capture body heat, distance, illumination, even G-Force and have that signal translated into Midi!" There's a lotta detail, and prices seem reasonable (i.e., a _lot_ less than I would have expected, though still beyond my means). Site is at http://www.infusionsystems.com/icube.htm -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 10:18:49 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 15 09:53:44 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzPd7-000585-00; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:53:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199708151648.JAA24232@apple.com> Subject: Re: Apologies, thanks, etc. Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 11:50:28 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"qHaSXD.A.NTE.ThI9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/288 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:53:41 -0700 X-UIDL: f62f151792bdd977d7353273ab88046d >THANKS as well for the tips on how to sync up loops with a live drummer. I >really appreciate the variety of responses to my question...certainly the >kind of thing that makes this list WORK. BTW, my next bet is headphones, >big over-the-ear jobbers, with the loop pounding away in the drummer's >ears. He'll catch on. There's a thing called Drumphones, which look similiar to shooter's muffs, in that they seal out almost all noise from the outside. Drumphones have headphone speakers mounted inside, so that you can get a headphone mix with very little bleed from the outside. I use them in the studio so that I can stand in front of a loud amp without having to crank the headphones so loud that they distort, make me deaf, or blow. I've seen them advertised in Modern Drummer. Travis Hartnett From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 10:18:50 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 15 10:02:13 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzPlL-0005zq-00; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:02:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199708151655.JAA21104@apple.com> Subject: Jon Durant's new CD--checkitout Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 11:57:25 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"-mVpBB.A.L9E.unI9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/289 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:02:11 -0700 X-UIDL: 2b338318a9011bbe31957ce48383512b I bought the new CD by Jon Durant and I was very impressed. A great example of looping incorporated with live instruments. Gorgeous textures, grooves, tones and playing all around. I'd recommend it to anyone. Travis P.S. Had to look in Pop, New Age, and Jazz to find it. I think it was finally in New Age, but I found the Robbie Aceto (also quite good) in Pop. Tower Records is a strange store. From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 10:18:47 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 15 07:29:51 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzNNt-0003bT-00; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:29:49 -0700 X-Sender: gorton@g.imap.itd.umich.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:26:58 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: gorton@umich.edu (Russell Gorton) Subject: Apologies, thanks, etc. Resent-Message-ID: <"vsBuUD.A.SKD.ecG9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/286 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:29:49 -0700 X-UIDL: 568f7b6b9ea9a49e3da1fed7edefd75b I would like to apologize for my petulant provocation of Texas guitar subculture. No excuse, really. It is unfortunate that lists go through "flurry" phases like that where a lot of hot air is blown around to no avail. I, too, find it rather difficult to explain ANY of my musical philosophy and feeling via ASCII text. All we can do is keep trying to share and learn and grow and play nice. Yes, personal irritants will surface in postings....this isn't an ideal way to confer...would be MUCH more fun and enjoyable to have a "loopers' summit" and hang out for a day in a space where we could show each other our music, not just words. THANKS as well for the tips on how to sync up loops with a live drummer. I really appreciate the variety of responses to my question...certainly the kind of thing that makes this list WORK. BTW, my next bet is headphones, big over-the-ear jobbers, with the loop pounding away in the drummer's ears. He'll catch on. Kim, listmom, wrote: > >Mean people also cause mass unsubscriptions to the list. A whole bunch of >people left over the past few days. Sadly, at least one of them is a dj. >Probably he could have answered some questions that people have, had he been >asked politely rather than being challenged to defend his existence. > That was probably what provoked me in the first place...the sense that the GuitarMajority was on some sort of cleansing mission, to purge the list of non-believers. Sure, I'll admit that EVH's Eruption changed the way many view the electric guitar. But, partly as a result of that, electric rock guitar is now essentially a commodity item in the music world. Thankfully, there are guys out there (many of them on this list) trying to push the envelope. --Russell Gorton From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 10:18:49 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 15 08:55:22 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzOid-0000kV-00; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:55:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970815115154.00716654@dharma.mitre.org> X-Sender: seligman@dharma.mitre.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:51:54 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Len Seligman Subject: Additional JamMan memory upgrades $65 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19970813143610.0070eb74@dharma.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"k2OfM.A.TR.ErH9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/287 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:55:19 -0700 X-UIDL: 4515504eff202c09763d0a903bd81445 No one should have to suffer with only 8 seconds of loop time anymore! Since a few people responded, I decided to go ahead and buy some more. I should receive them late next week. So, if anybody else wants JamMan memory, please let me know and send along your surface mail address. (Please respond directly to me at seligman@mitre.org and not to the whole Loopers-Delight list. Thanks.) For those wanting technical details, these come in sets of four 1M x 4 bit Motorola ZIP ICs, part number MCM54400AZ (70 nanoseconds). Happy looping, Len Seligman >>I have an extra set of Motorola memory ICs for the JamMan which upgrade it >>from 8 to 32 seconds of looping. I installed a set without any problem, >>following the instructions in the JamMan manual. >> >>Lexicon charges around $175 a set, but I found these at a chip graveyard; >>the only hitch was I had to buy a bunch of chips. >> >>I only have one set left, however, if multiple people respond and are >>interested, I could make another buy. >> >>Please respond directly to me and not to the whole list. >> >>Len Seligman > > From ???@??? Fri Aug 15 20:44:11 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 15 11:32:13 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzRAS-000548-00; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:32:12 -0700 X-From_:nyfac2@nyfac.com Fri Aug 15 11:32:09 1997 Received: from mail2.panix.com [198.7.0.33] by ferret with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzRAO-00053S-00; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:32:08 -0700 Received: from nyfac ([206.133.60.162]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with SMTP id OAA20712 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33F4B195.446B@nyfac.com> Old-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:44:21 -0400 From: nyfac Organization: New York Film & Animation Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01SGoldC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.3 IP32) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: This thread is not without merit... is it? References: <199708151655.JAA21104@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored X-Envelope-To: Loopers-Delight Sender: SmartList Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:32:12 -0700 X-UIDL: f8de67839e66687f4a53811b2441ddcb I find it hard to take offence at really any of the flaming that has go on in this thread... I am just a bit surprised. I don't know about you guys, but I spent a lot of time in career(?) as a musician hearing "that's not music" both directed at me and towards some of the bands that I listen to. I find it hard to believe that my experiences are not shared with all who subscribe to this list. Anyhow, I think there was an interesting thought a while back that has been all but ignored, that being the idea that a DJ fills the role of a conductor. My own experiences with DJ's (my best friend is one, and he was dropping Terminator X style scratching and breakbeats into my imitation Cocteau Twins songs five or six hears ago) have been regarding them as sort a cross between a guest soloist and rhythm box but I like the idea of having one person have a control over the basic rhythmic and harmonic direction of a performance. It would be nice to see/hear something like a fusion of Glen Branca and DJ Yella. I don't find much attraction to electronica in the same way that I am not particularly atracted to solo singer/songwriter acts, or solo instrumental acts (with many noticable acceptions, of course). I have a tendency to really enjoy the interaction of a small group of people. This is also how I prefer to make my own music (probably no coincidence). Case in point- I guess at this point I have seen DJ Spooky five or six times (only once on purpose... it seems everywhere I go, there he is) and was never really to blown away by him untill I saw Spooky and Lee Renaldo (of Sonic Youth) play a set together before the Panasonic show in NYC. The performance had its ups and downs, but was, I think the freshest thing I had seen out of either one of them for a while. BTW: one of the new electronic folk of I have seen around is called, I think, DJ Singh. I saw her once at a show show with DJ Spooky and she totally blew me away. She layed down a sensual groove (something missing in most of the machine music I hear these days, be it electronica or R&B) with focused (also uncommon these days) bursts of ambient noise and/or SY-esque skronk. Really good stuff. Anybody heard from her? I have no idea where she is from. Trevor From ???@??? Sat Aug 16 14:47:41 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 16 00:03:29 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzctT-0007nV-00; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:03:27 -0700 Message-ID: <33F54FEB.B9A@dmans.com> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:59:55 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" Reply-To: mnelson@dmans.com Organization: Boomerang Musical Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! References: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F18E97D@mail.exapps.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WKulQC.A.14G.h7U9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/290 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:03:27 -0700 X-UIDL: e8b2b0fe6892cb8cdbd4eb1584333f45 David Kirkdorffer wrote: > I don't need the standards: chorus, flange, delay, pitch-shift. I'm > looking for DRASTIC effects rendering a guitar very UN-guitar-like. I > have a Vortex already -- now I quest for something more wild. Dave, Look into the Roland GR30 guitar synth. You get completely unguitar-like sounds. It also has a programmable apeggio feature with many different modes. You can set it up so a short loop or segment plays when triggered by a note. It goes well beyond the basic idea of an arpeggio. Motley From ???@??? Sat Aug 16 14:47:43 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 16 02:15:00 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzewl-0003kp-00; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:14:59 -0700 Message-ID: <33F57021.4AEC@dmans.com> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:17:21 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" Reply-To: mnelson@dmans.com Organization: Boomerang Musical Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: The grand daddy of all flame wars Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lyyT6C.A.hZD.V8W9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/291 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:14:59 -0700 X-UIDL: 2513c8599d4273798e8f875736904f64 It's nice to be noticed. :-} I only check my messages once or twice a week, and when I logged on to find 142 new posts I thought there was a server problem or maybe I'd been discovered by the antichrist of net marketing. I was relieved to find it was only people expressing their opinions and feelings. The ensuing flood contained some bile but also a little humor and I thought, now this is only one skinny man's opinion, some of the most interesting posts in awhile. My head was stretched. Thanks to all. Now... don't you agree that rap music is an oxymoron? I remain....well...uh..I remain Motley From ???@??? Sat Aug 16 14:47:49 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 16 09:56:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzm9B-0001KH-00; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:56:17 -0700 Message-ID: <33F5DAFA.7016324A@wsdesigns.com> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:53:14 -0700 From: Warren Sirota Reply-To: wsirota@wsdesigns.com Organization: WS Designs X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Loopers-Delight-d Digest V97 #138 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X6yieB.A.U-.vrd9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/292 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:56:17 -0700 X-UIDL: f00192ec78fa81f71c6629f60729c792 I'd appreciate any more posts on getting other band members, particularly drummers, to sync up with a loop. Personally, I've found it to be so difficult as to be not worth trying in a conventional band (i.e., one where looping isn't a part of the band's core "mission"). The drummer always complains that the freaking loop isn't perfectly in sync - that rarely is a problem for me when I'm playing alone. They're usually close enough, but the drummers aren't used to taking the time from an external source. Anyway, I've given up on it and only loop solo. I'd be interested in hearing more of other people's experiences. -- Yours truly, Warren Sirota musician, programmer, writer http://wsdesigns.com/wsirota From ???@??? Sat Aug 16 20:07:02 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 16 19:04:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzuhx-0004Qd-00; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:04:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:05:00 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: JamMan memory problems Resent-Message-ID: <"hvcj-D.A.L-D.-tl9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/293 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:04:45 -0700 X-UIDL: 3473f4b2163ada990061e6a5ee0a4391 Hi, I'm turning to the list to help solve a problem I'm having with the JamNonGenderSpecificBeing. A while ago, I bought a set of ZIP IC's from VisionSoft, recommended by somebody on the list as a source for chips. I didn't get around to installing the chips until about 2 weeks ago, and I didn't really check the unit out after installing the chips. A few days later, when I finally had a chance to thoroughly test the unit out, I noticed that the output was really distorted, in fact it sounds to me like it's been downsampled to 8 bits. So today I finally swapped the old chips back in, and it sounds fine again. So I'm wondering whether I got a set of defective chips or if I just got the wrong kind of chips. When I called VisionSoft, I read off a couple of the part numbers from the JamManual, and the guy at VS asked me what kind of Amiga I was using. I told him it was for a digital delay, and he checked the numbers, and said he had the right kind of chips, I ordered 4 (about $47 including shipping). Today, I noticed that the old 8 second chips have a missing pin on one side in the middle, while the 32 second chips have all the pins. Anyway, I'm going to call VisionSoft again on monday, but I'm wondering if someone could give me info on this beforehand. Thanks in advance. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 11:48:30 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 16 20:16:59 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0wzvpq-0006lu-00; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:16:58 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:14:34 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: new vortex stuff on the web Resent-Message-ID: <"5wD7AD.A.JOG.sym9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/294 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:16:58 -0700 X-UIDL: f6ef9bdc2a415d93e25b663f79cb48b7 I just added a bunch of vortex stuff to the Looper's Delight web site. The user's manual, the formerly rare application notes, and some links to other vortex spots. Mostly courtesy Stew Benedict and Todd Madson. Thanks for the work guys! enjoy: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/tools/vortex/vortex.html Also, there's now a page with info on the mailing list, with a FAQ. Hopefully this will be a big help for getting people who come to the web site onto the mailing list. It used to be hard to figure out that there was a mailing list, so a lot of interesting folk never knew. Sooner or later I'll get links on all the pages to the mailing list page: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/list/LoopList.html kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Fri Mar 13 01:09:54 1998 >From kflint Thu Mar 12 23:46:48 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDPAy-0004b1-00; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:46:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970817000536.007c02d0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 00:05:36 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: loops and video? an UFOs ??? In-Reply-To: <199803090732.AA09716@world.std.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19970811231844.007af570@pop3.concentric.net> <199803072040_MC2-35EE-E19@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mN1EVC.A.NyD.gNOC1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4195 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:46:44 -0800 X-UIDL: b10c842b23cafbe954f17cbfd7cc596c cute... ha ha ha smiles, Corynne At 02:32 AM 3/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I'm really intrigued by your use of video, but I muat ask, WHERE THE HECK >>DID YA GET THE UFO FOOTAGE!? > >DIY! > >This wasn't directed at me, but I'll just say... >all I do is put the camera on a tripod up on the >roof... leave it running... most days there's >a fair amount of UFO activity, so you can get >20 minutes of footage in about two hours... > >Sean >ok, no more silly replies from me > > > From ???@??? Fri Mar 13 01:09:55 1998 >From kflint Thu Mar 12 23:46:58 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDPB9-0004cY-00; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:46:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970817001657.007a0650@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 00:16:57 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: loops and video? an UFOs and fractals too... In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19980309023612.213f7e52@texas.net> References: <199803090732.AA09716@world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19970811231844.007af570@pop3.concentric.net> <199803072040_MC2-35EE-E19@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NqQkiC.A.0yD.kNOC1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4196 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:46:55 -0800 X-UIDL: c80967a2a1c4187b59de8eef0fe33edb Thanks for indulging me, lol! smiles, Corynne At 02:36 AM 3/9/98, you wrote: >local & national stuff( ALOT of stuff from mexico) ive recorded some from >the local news,,,and >others... >however as was mentioned,,,just pointing a good video camera up into the >sky will provide >some neat footage of "rods" etc....some use the edge of a >building/house...to direct the camera toward the corona of the sun,(using >the edge of the roof to block out all but the corona),,,if your camera has >a shudder speed of 10,000 ,,,you will capture things moving too fast for >real time detection by the human eye....i will not use this list to >speculate as to the nature of what has been captured on video in these >cases,,,i dont really know,,,but it sure does work well with looping based >improvisation. i also have used fractals as a video back-drop... > >james "i aint no Cecil Taylor" rhodes > > > > > > >At 02:32 AM 3/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>I'm really intrigued by your use of video, but I muat ask, WHERE THE HECK >>>DID YA GET THE UFO FOOTAGE!? >> >>DIY! >> >>This wasn't directed at me, but I'll just say... >>all I do is put the camera on a tripod up on the >>roof... leave it running... most days there's >>a fair amount of UFO activity, so you can get >>20 minutes of footage in about two hours... >> >>Sean >>ok, no more silly replies from me >> >> >> > > > > From ???@??? Fri Mar 13 09:37:39 1998 >From kflint Fri Mar 13 02:39:27 1998 Received: from falcon (falcon.slip.net) [207.171.193.27] by ferret.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDRs3-0007cb-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:39:23 -0800 Received: from ferret.slip.net [207.171.193.6] (mail) by falcon.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDRs0-0004mJ-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:39:20 -0800 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDRry-0007c1-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:39:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970817005724.007b9340@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 00:57:24 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: RE: a woman's ears In-Reply-To: <01BD4B54.51E155A0.lahatch@dnai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8Tn4tD.A.P3G.ExQC1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4200 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:39:18 -0800 X-UIDL: 3bc4057818d1e0db1fe124af02c274d9 Thanks to both of you for this msg, it says alot. I think a lot of things play into this whole idea, hearing differences, personal preference, individual threasholds, quality of systems, type and style of music, volume... etc... smiles, and happy listening... Corynne te: >Kim illumined: >>Just so's you know.....As I understand the physiological issue, it's >not >volume or high frequencies that cause the discomfort in women. >It's particular >types of non-harmonic distortion in the audio system, >which will tend to be >worse at higher volume. I've seen several >discussions of this in audio >engineering journals, usually under the >context of how to get a wider customer >base for audio products. > >Hmmm. This is really interesting. What are these types of n-h distortion >called? (So I can find out more about this.) Also, a question comes to mind >regarding human sensitivity in detecting distortion. Assuming we're talking >about musicians or people with well-trained, discriminating hearing: is there >inharmonic distortion occurring below the range of conscious perception that >affects us negatively before we actually are aware of hearing it? Might I >start feeling uncomfortable before I am able to consciously identify this type >of distortion, even if I was somehow miraculously blessed with a superbly >sophisticated ear? (My question comes in part from reading about phase >distortion in amplifiers or equalizers. My text source tells me the associated >slight reduction of response is generally not noticeable. Does it, however, >have any measurable effect on the listener, even when not audibly perceived?) > >I'm also curious about lab standards by which something as subjective as >perception is meaningfully quantified. Can anyone recommend a good source for >info on that one? > >>These inharmonic distortions add frequency components to the >sound in a >particular way that women tend to have a negative >reaction to while men >typically don't notice. > >Sarajane's post mentioned differences in inner ear structure between genders. > Is that the mechanism in this case? > >>It is very common with cheap home/audio stereos, cheap PA >systems, cheap >music gear, etc. It also happens in more expensive >gear that isn't designed >very well. As the volume is turned up on these >systems, the distortions start >to happen, and women will start to find it >unpleasant for physiological >reasons. On cleaner systems that don't >generate these distortions, the >discomfort doesn't happen. > >[snip] > >On a few occasions, the systems were pretty clean, high end. On the other >hand, as I recall, I wasn't necessarily the only one suffering; some of the >boyz were also getting blasted. Which probably just means that those of us >copping to pain weren't trying to be as macho, we hadn't already toasted our >eardrums, or we simply weren't as hell-bent on vaporizing ourselves out of >existence... > >Maybe it's just a difference in individual thresholds. I've run across a very >few musicians who consistently choose to play at *significantly* higher volumes >than most (regardless of gender), yet have no detectable hearing loss after >years and years of totally cranking their systems, and practically stuffing 10 >inch speakers in their ears. (They also manage to drive everybody else on >stage totally nuts!) -- And hey, talk about incompatibilities in a >relationship... ;-) > >Anyway, thanks for the clarification, Kim. Very useful info. > >laurie > > > > From ???@??? Fri Mar 13 09:37:43 1998 >From kflint Fri Mar 13 03:43:27 1998 Received: from weasel.slip.net (falcon.slip.net) [207.171.193.21] by ferret.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDSs2-0004kj-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:43:26 -0800 Received: from ferret.slip.net [207.171.193.6] (mail) by falcon.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDSs1-00069n-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:43:25 -0800 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDSry-0004kM-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:43:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970817012435.007c55f0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:24:35 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: RE: a woman's ears In-Reply-To: References: <01BD4B54.51E155A0.lahatch@dnai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uFp2TD.A.yPE.XtRC1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4203 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:43:22 -0800 X-UIDL: d872b05031ab7cd0b0596f636ae883e5 I know I've said "thanks" now more than a few times, but there's a wealth of knowledge here if we ask the right questions. So anyway, Thanks again to you Kim for all these wonderful sources to look things up in, and to you Laurie for asking all the right questions... smiles, Corynne At 12:52 AM 3/10/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 12:10 PM -0800 3/9/98, Laurie Hatch wrote: >>Kim illumined: >>>Just so's you know.....As I understand the physiological issue, it's >not >>volume or high frequencies that cause the discomfort in women. >It's >>particular >>types of non-harmonic distortion in the audio system, >which will tend to be >>worse at higher volume. I've seen several >discussions of this in audio >>engineering journals, usually under the >context of how to get a wider >>customer >>base for audio products. >> >>Hmmm. This is really interesting. What are these types of n-h distortion >>called? (So I can find out more about this.) > >Well, now you done it. I was lookin' all smart and then you had to go and >ask questions. since I'm not any expert by any means, I'll just point you >to some places where you can become one. > >If you want to learn more, I would suggest popping over to your local >university library and taking look at back issues of the Audio Engineering >Society Journal, Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, and anything >on psychoacoustics. > >I've got a pretty good book called "Thinking in Sound - the Cognitive >Psychology of Human Audition" edited by Stephen McAdams and Emmanuel >Bigand, Oxford Science Pulications. Also, "The Science of Musical Sound" by >John R. Pierce, W.H. Freeman and Company. I'm not sure if either directly >answers this question, but you will learn a lot about how you hear and how >amazing your ears and brain are. > >Both of those come from David Wessel's course on psychoacoustics at UC >Berkeley, taught in the lovely CNMAT facility. (I missed that class but >bought the books.) You might want to sit in on some lectures and ask him >directly, he'd probably know. > >Audio Amateur magazine often has interesting, if poorly researched, >articles on the subject audio effects on hearing. Typically related to >hobbyist amplifier design and how it can be made that much more subtly >better by some strange circuit. Nice mag though. > > > >> Also, a question comes to mind >>regarding human sensitivity in detecting distortion. Assuming we're talking >>about musicians or people with well-trained, discriminating hearing: is there >>inharmonic distortion occurring below the range of conscious perception that >>affects us negatively before we actually are aware of hearing it? > >yes. as with all human senses, there are many things you don't consciously >notice but you are still sensing them. Like the fact that your nose is in >your field of vision but you mostly don't see it. In my case, that is truly >amazing. > > >> Might I >>start feeling uncomfortable before I am able to consciously identify this >>type >>of distortion, even if I was somehow miraculously blessed with a superbly >>sophisticated ear? > >as I understand things, yes. I imagine if you really knew what you were >listening for you might be able to hear it. Not sure though. > >>(My question comes in part from reading about phase >>distortion in amplifiers or equalizers. My text source tells me the >>associated >>slight reduction of response is generally not noticeable. Does it, however, >>have any measurable effect on the listener, even when not audibly perceived?) > >phase distortion is a bit different. ears are not really sensitive to >phase, so you won't necessarily notice that. I don't think it would cause >any discomfort, because it is not adding any weird frequencies. However, >phase distortion usually means you are near the edge of the amplifier's >bandwidth, which means you are probably getting ringing on transients and >fun stuff like that. Makes the audio muddy and gives audiophile editors >lot's of stuff to write about. > >>I'm also curious about lab standards by which something as subjective as >>perception is meaningfully quantified. Can anyone recommend a good source >>for >>info on that one? > >within the field of pshychoacoustics there are probably such things, but >not really in engineering. Your typical lab standards in this regard would >be Total Harmonic Distortion, or THD, and Intermodulation Distortion, or >IMD. THD just tells you how much distortion you have when a tone is put >through the system, but doesn't tell you much about what sort of >distortion. IMD is similar, but measures the degree to which two tones >together in a system modulate each other and produce non-harmonic frequency >components. Both are useful benchmarks for basic engineering practice, but >neither really tells you much about whether it sounds good or not. You >generally have to go well beyond that in designing serious audio systems. >Marketing people like them, though. > > >>>These inharmonic distortions add frequency components to the >sound in a >>particular way that women tend to have a negative >reaction to while men >>typically don't notice. >> >>Sarajane's post mentioned differences in inner ear structure between genders. >> Is that the mechanism in this case? > >I don't know. I would imagine there are neurological aspects as well. > > > >>Maybe it's just a difference in individual thresholds. I've run across a very >>few musicians who consistently choose to play at *significantly* higher >>volumes > >think of the fingernails on the chalkboard thing. Some people roll on the >floor in agony. Others smile malevolently as the slowly drag a long pinky >nail across the board, apparently with no discomfort, while enjoying the >suffering of others. Being the latter sort, I've noticed that women are >usually more prone to it, but many men will also be affected. The worst I >ever encountered was the guy living in the dorm room next to me in >college....he would literally fall on the floor and roll around.... > >If you really do go research it a bit, let me know what you find out. > >kim > >______________________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html >http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com > > > > > From ???@??? Fri Mar 13 09:37:37 1998 >From kflint Fri Mar 13 01:55:55 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDRBx-00055y-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 01:55:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970817013403.007a09c0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:34:03 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: RE: Frisell/Power Tools and assorted discographies In-Reply-To: <01BD4C05.C7856EC0.lahatch@dnai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"an55GB.A.5XE.PHQC1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4198 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 01:55:53 -0800 X-UIDL: de14d5b8cd17842997dd5545a5db6b42 Wonderful story, loved it! smiles Corynne At 09:14 AM 3/10/98 -0800, you wrote: >David O: >then you'll want to scurry off to the Bill Frisell Song Finder at: > (the >construction of which proves how much spare time I had last weekend). > > >Hey, nice work David! I've got one to add, I mentioned it a while back in a >discpix thread, but will give it some bandwidth again: > >"Just So Happens", Gary Peacock and Bill, duet. For anyone who doesn't know, >Gary is a major cat in jazz world. Plays upright bass, lives in Seattle. > Great player, great guy. > >Album was recorded February 1994, most the compositions are Gary's and Bill's >collaborations. Plus a little Americana (Home on the Range 1 and 2, Red River >Valley), a jazz standard or two (Good Morning Heartache, Reciprocity - which is >Gary's), and another Gary tune. > >I really love this album, but then I've always been inspired by both Gary's and >Bill's playing. The title track, "Just So Happens" is exceptionally beautiful, >like when the sun comes up. > >******************* >For anyone interested in more about Gary, here's an anecdotal story. This was >in Seattle, more years ago than I care to count. I was doing lessons with him, >and that week we'd been working on jazz standards, specifically Autumn Leaves, >in all keys. At the time Autumn Leaves wasn't my most favorite tune in the >world, but he chose it for specific pedagogical reasons, and hey, who was I to >argue? He'd play piano, call a key, and 3,4, go man. Just do it. It was >pretty daunting for a kid learning to play walking lines, but Gary was >unbelievably patient and encouraging. Well, I limped through that session, >grasping at obvious, rudimentary harmonic and rhythmic choices, not venturing >very far so as not to totally fall flat on my face, which I was doing anyway. > Came out of there feeling like I'd been through a ringer. > >That evening I went out to a little jazz club where Gary was playing. It was >early in the week, and early in the night. There were only two or three people >in the club, which would later fill up. He leaned over to the other player (I >can't for the life of me remember who it was, but he was gigging a lot with Art >Lande at the time...) whispered something, and started into this magnificent, >elongated improvisation. These guys were at 150%, absolutely playing their >butts off, exploring extraordinary tangents. Just pasted me to the chair - I >was absolutely captivated; it was the finest I'd ever heard him play. After >how long, who knows - this little cocoon club was in a time warp - increasingly >brilliant, elegant tones threaded into Gary's tapestry, one by one, ever so >smoothly. It was like shimmering deep bells going off in my head. Autumn >Leaves. Holy shiiii.... > >That remains the most profoundly moving "lesson" I've ever had. > >laurie > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 11:48:43 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 17 05:47:26 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x04jt-0004RP-00; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:47:25 -0700 Message-Id: <8718.199708171243@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:43:53 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY - the final word! Resent-Message-ID: <"Dl-wrB.A.dDE.6Iv9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/295 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:47:25 -0700 X-UIDL: cd5a0ee63e44b4e9fac2979f83fc689e OK, I know this thread's winding down but I've been away for a couple of days, and wanted to set the record straight, especially on a couple of points. To make this post relevant to the group aim, the word LOOPER will appear in capital letters. Dave: >On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD wrote: >> Yes, but a guitarst on his own is pretty imited. There aren't many solo >> electric guitar peices worth listening to. A DJ can tale the sounds of an >> orchestra, a funk band and NY art-scronk and come up with something >> huge-sounding. People playing musical instruments will always need to use >> other players to fill out the sound - drummers, bassists, thumb-pianists... >> which is almost what the DJ is doing. >I don't think the point of playing with other musicians is to fill out >MY sound. Although I'm sure it wasn't your intent, it does come close >to another branch of guitar arrogance... the idea that the "rhythm >section" is there to provide a beat for the guitarist to jack off >over. No, indeed, that wasn't my intention. All I was saying is that musicians play together to create a rich, complex sound. A DJ produces sounds with incredibly rich sources as a basic material. Of course, people playing guitars/keyboards/thumb-pianos can use LOOPERS to create those richer textures. > Think about the amazing amount of attention that guitarists pay to > solos--why is that? In pop music, a solo may only occupy 10% of a song. > 90% of the time a guitarist is playing rhythm--why so much energy spent > on considering solos? Reason (1) - unless you're a creative genius with an eye for texture (think Torn, Summers, or Anyone Here), most rhythm is there to provide a tonal setting to the singer. Most of the time the guitarist can bang away on chords or do something really intricate - but the attention is supposed to be on the singer, so most don't make the effort. During the solo, the audience focuses on YOU and you have the entire responsibility to carry the song. Reason (2) ME! ME! LOOK AT ME!!! Everyone said: >At 08:20 PM 8/12/97 +0100, Michael Hughes wrote: >> Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard >> heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero? I DID NOT SAY THAT!! i think >Kim: >> because I'd hate to see the rock band with John Tesh in it. Dan: >whilst tesh and company traded jump-ropes, exercise bikes, and massages in >order to "get psyched for the show". tesh himself cranked up a few enya >discs and even enigma (he started up tubular bells II and >then decided after about five seconds that it wasn't good enough). TBII not good enough? I know not who John Tesh is, but the man's a turnip! BTW Mike Oldfield's music is viertual LOOPage from 1973-on... all playeed by him, layered, repetetive patterns. It's also gorgeous. Dave again: > Electric guitars just gave us fusion. No, that was an electric trumpeter... Can you imagine Miles with a LOOPER? Whooo!!! >Here's an experiment for all of you who think the guitar is such a >be-all solo intrument... try tuning to EADGCF for a few weeks. >Straight fourths across the fretboard. Stick with >it, and you'll soon learn the harmonic advantages of this tuning, >advantages the much-maligned keyboardists have always enjoyed. He's not wrong. I've been using this for 4 years. Someone: >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade. OK let's put it this way - what peice of music made you say "I wanna keyboard?" For that matter, what made you say "I wanna LOOPER?" For me, Fripp's "Easter Sunday" flexidisk in GP. >I too hope a keyboardist will speak up because none of the keyboard players >I have met were particularly interested in soloing in a pop context. I've met Rick Wakeman. Listen to a RW solo album - especially a more recent one - to hear psycho rock keyboard soloing. Try and hear "Suicide Shuffle" - so called because the intention was to drive his drummer to suicide by changing time sig. every bar.... Randy: >Wow! >Whats happening? >Can we stop all this opinion B.S. >Who cares what instrument you play/like. >Who cares who your favorite artists are. >Who cares which albums you buy. >Who cares what you think is/isn't music. >Who cares what you think about sampler, syths, djs, music theory, music >philosophy or someones elses opinion on the above. Bloody hell! Could someone set that to music??? :) Stephen: >> Yes, but a guitarst on his own is pretty imited. >But I had to rebut that comment at least. Ah, but is a solo performer with a LOOPER a solo performer? Debate. Paolo responded to someone: >> In non-fusion Jazz, the guitarist is usually denied the option of >> distortion, the primary method of imparting sustain upon a sustain-poor >I don't know how things are in Austin but from what I've seen the >guitarist himself chooses not to use distortion; he is not barred from >using it by the other band members. Perhaps it's me, but as soon as a guitarist uses any significant amount of distortion (beyond, say, some of Burrell's live stuff I've heard) it gets called fusion. Dave: >Besides, maybe I'm just funny this way, but I *listen* to >musicians, and could generally give a fuck about how they look when >playing... We're all funny 'round here... after all, how many musicians have LOOPERS? John: > but my Casio VZs are capable of both very strange and very expressive sounds. Heh, I had a VZ1 for years... Michael PS Van Halen was never big in Britain BTW - most guitarists over here have never heard of Eruption... or would deny it if you asked them... /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 11:48:44 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 17 08:49:17 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x07Zr-0001SA-00; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 08:49:15 -0700 X-Sender: LEO@MAIL.DINONET.IT X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Leonardo Cavallo Subject: Used Vortex price Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:53:22 +0200 Message-ID: <19970817155321765.AAA197@Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"tAQ0sC.A.SMB.G0x9z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/296 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 08:49:15 -0700 X-UIDL: 69708bdd72349b240e9b37a47b26babb Hi all I'd like to know the price of a used Vortex. $200 is too much?? thanks leo From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 21:26:36 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 17 13:07:39 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0Bbu-0003H6-00; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:07:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199708172005.PAA18788@mail.tds.net> From: "Bruce Gerow" To: Subject: will trade Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:15:41 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vUhGv.A.s7C.Xm19z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/298 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:07:38 -0700 X-UIDL: 443aa03740ab05a717c0aa4387bde2da Hi Loopers, Anyone tired of their Vortex is welcome to trade it for my Boss SE50.Even Swap.E mail me if interested. LooseBruce From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 11:48:45 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 17 11:41:32 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0AGY-0000AN-00; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 11:41:30 -0700 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:37:39 -0400 (EDT) From: PainPete@aol.com Message-ID: <970817143738_1553020708@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Used Vortex price Resent-Message-ID: <"WF85B.A.tRH.yU09z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/297 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 11:41:30 -0700 X-UIDL: 801d32348020e2130437aea086ce4747 They were going new for $150 towards the end. Nose dive from 500-600 range. Now they are all gone (?) so your best bet is to find someone who bought one and hated it. This is easier said than done since everyone I know of who has one loves it, and thinks the people who it to sold them for that low are idiots (I think the rest of the world is full of idiots for not going nuts over this thing, but that's just my bias). At worst a Vortex owner hasn't had enough time to figure out how amazing it is yet, but are willing to give it a chance since they tend to hear all the word-of-mouth. Actually your best bet is to find someone who has one who is (a) starving to death and/or (b) jonesing for smack and/or (c) stole it. (Actually this is probably considerably more likely than finding someone who hates it). I don't think their value is very well-defined at the moment, it probably depends on how much the person you are buying it from paid for it, at least for a couple years anyway. I paid $350 for mine and thought I made out like a bandit until I heard about what the guys on this list got away with! $200 is probably reasonable (based on what they were finally going for plus the added value of their posthumous reputation) but I think they will only appreciate. I am CONVINCED that they will be very valuable (maybe close to the original price?) hard-to-find classics in the future, even if everything else in the world ends up sounding exactly like it anyway. It will be prove to have been either ahead of its time, or utterly unique, or both, no matter what happens. For getting something like it widely available again, we can only hope someone famous champions the thing in a very visible way, but that probably won't happen since music is so gear-drenched no one cares what gear someone is using anymore (nor can most people afford it) by the time it gets to things like weird rack-mounts. Though I shudder to think what Hendrix would have done with one in the 60s, for instance (brain cells cringe in horror and awe...) - Man, how'd he DO that????? Too bad the Vortex wasn't a 79.99 foot pedal of his... Pete In a message dated 97-08-17 11:54:53 EDT, you write: << Subj: Used Vortex price Date: 97-08-17 11:54:53 EDT From: LEO@DINONET.IT (Leonardo Cavallo) Resent-from: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Hi all I'd like to know the price of a used Vortex. $200 is too much?? thanks leo >> From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 01:08:14 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 13:12:05 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0Y9k-0000HS-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:12:04 -0700 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:10:10 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Re: Used Vortex price To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <33F768B2.5085@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <19970817155321765.AAA197@Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"8FIU-.A.fQH.zuK-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/308 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:12:04 -0700 X-UIDL: 8caf86253fc81c5a304a6fa8da0ef718 Leonardo Cavallo wrote: > > Hi all > > I'd like to know the price of a used Vortex. $200 is too much?? A Vortex is priceless. If you have a chance at one for $200, by all means grab it. -- John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 21:26:37 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 17 14:16:59 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0Ch0-0005ox-00; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:16:58 -0700 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:12:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199708172112.OAA19257@barley.adnc.com> X-Sender: ambient@mail.adnc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: studio seventeen productions Subject: boomerang Resent-Message-ID: <"pbp4SD.A.TTF.mm29z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/299 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:16:58 -0700 X-UIDL: 93a1044e3045ff9b6db899bba9ca52f5 Would the gentleman from Boomerang please email me with the physical dimensions of and complete specs and details of the Boomerang? Privately to ambient@adnc.com Thanks! dave at studio seventeen From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 01:08:25 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 16:19:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0b5N-0005pD-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:19:45 -0700 Message-ID: <33F78330.1C34@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:03:12 +0100 From: robin bussell Reply-To: robin.b2@ukonline.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sYtOL.A.BDF.7dN-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/310 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:19:45 -0700 X-UIDL: b4a4b276df0808877f243e6a250dd0f4 > On the second permutation, I got the desired effect: 32 seconds of > glorious, distortion-free looping. > > So, now I'm really curious about how this can work this way. I've talked to Well it sound to me like you *have* got a duff chip there but it's now in a position to cause distortion that's inaudible. Say you had the most significant bit of your sixteen stuck on (or random) you'd have either a massive DC offset on your signal (half the full swing ) or large amounts of noise. Move this duff chip to the least significant bit and all of a sudden your noise of offset is only 1/65535th of the total output swing possible... hardly noticable, in fact there are some intersting techniques for hiding encrypted data (which looks like a random bitstream) in digital audio this way.. simply string out all the bits in you data bytes and use them as the least significant bit in your WAV file or whatever... similar things are done to hide digital copyright data in CD's etc but I digress! All the above is rendered a bit invalid if the jamman runs a memory test on powerup as it should spot this and complain... though it might not spot an error knocked out address bits, this would mean that data got replicated inblocks throughout the RAM and in it's least noticeable form would be like halfing the sample rate...hmmm some jamman inside knowlege needed here! Bob? Anyway the long and the short of it is that there are plenty of possible explanations for a faulty chip making your unit behave as it does so I'd say ask them for one more, swap the ram back to a noisy config, then swap the replacement in one at a time until you find the culprit. Hope this helps a bit, Robin. From ???@??? Sat Mar 14 01:19:19 1998 >From kflint Fri Mar 13 16:48:06 1998 Received: from weasel.slip.net [207.171.193.21] by ferret.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #8) id 0yDf7K-0005lx-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:48:02 -0800 Received: from ferret.slip.net [207.171.193.6] (mail) by falcon.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yDf7F-0004Y1-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:47:57 -0800 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.73 #8) id 0yDf78-0005kQ-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:47:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970817173858.007a39c0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:38:58 -0700 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: hearing, gender, new info... Cc: Laurie Hatch , bryan.helm@dinosaur.com, Kim Flint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TZihu.A.5vE.KKdC1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4242 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:47:50 -0800 X-UIDL: 5fad791ab22e37d0557007afc164846e This might be of more concern to Laurie, (as she was asking about more info about hearing and gender) Sarahjane and Kim but I remebered some other information I learned about possible differences in hearing between the genders. There was a special edition of 20/20 a few months back which was strictly devoted to the discussion of cerebral differences between genders. This show touched on the subject hearing, but not in the way we've been talking about it. I didn't go into any possible differences in physical ability to hear, it discussed it from the point of view that we process things differently in our brains. There were two points which were brought up... The first was that woment were supposed to be able to hear sounds like water drips much easier than men could, even being involved with doing something else at the time. They sighted examples where women noticed this and asked their spouces or whoever, and they really didnt' notice but for the women involved, it sounded really quite loud and annoying. I myself have noticed this type of thing before where a drippping faucett will really loud to me and the guy I'm talking to won't notice until I get up and turn it off, I always just thought it was because I have really good hearing though, go figure... I guess other women have said simular things... I wonder if this ties in with the study that Sarajane mentioned as the sound of the drip is small and rythmic. The second thing they talked about was the ability to tune things out or hear more than one thing at once. For this one, they played the audio material so the TV audiance could hear it too so we could take part in the test. The case they showed for this whole idea was a husband who could seemingly ignore his wife and be talking on the phone or doing something else and totaly not aknowledge her presence, (I've seen this happen at work) She'd have to practicaly yell before he'd seem to purk up and hear her and respond. Anyway, the test was to listen to someone reading a story and then a second audio program with the same person reading a different story at the same level would be mixed in and the idea was to try to listen to one story and not the other one. The conclusions of the researchers were that women's attentions will be drawn back and forht between the two stories and get bits and pieces of each and have an almost impossible time staying on one story while the other one is also going which is exactly what happened to me. I've had this before also and it's really annoying sometimes but it's good if your trying to listen to more than one person at a time. Supposedly, men can tune out one story much more easily and listen to it only, they seem to have trouble listening to more than one thing at a time. It turned out that when The husband in this example was tunning his wife out, she could say somehting about his job, (which is what he was usually thinking about) and it would grab his attention, go figure... If it were me in her place, the mariage wouldn't last! Anyway, it's interesting to think about. If I can find some more information about any of this I will be sure to post it. smiles, Corynne two points whcih wer From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 21:26:38 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 17 19:59:13 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0I2C-0001qf-00; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:59:12 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:56:49 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: new instruments Resent-Message-ID: <"CDVd1C.A.YiB.dn79z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/300 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:59:12 -0700 X-UIDL: 4b4a8ddbea4dd1e6440f6dc661d82dd5 Patrick tells us: >Anyhow From Scratch makes there own instruments. Dadson uses PVC pipes. >They are tuned and mounted in rows, along with other percussive sources. He >has no heads on them. He uses a " paddle" (very similar in appearance to a >ping pong paddle) to strike the tubes. I'm not sure where you might mount >your MIDI trigger, but this may be worth investigating. Do they strike the end of the tubes to create the bass sound of the vibrating air in the tube? UAKTI, a very amazing band from Belo Horizonte (Brazil) do that for a long time. They lead all tubes into a box where they put a microphone - a beautifull bass instrument: quick, percussive and melodic. They have some CD distributed in the US or even worldwide. There are many other instruments they created using glass, water, rubber membranes on flutes,,, No looping. Straight compositions, fast rhythms, almost classic style, sometimes. Matthias From ???@??? Sun Aug 17 21:26:38 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 17 20:11:07 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0IDh-0002Tt-00; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:11:05 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970817220209.008c3c10@texas.net> X-Sender: ranjones@texas.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:02:11 -0500 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Randy Jones Subject: Re: new instruments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TWoNY.A.5IC.zy79z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/301 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:11:05 -0700 X-UIDL: 0abc54f64a95617eee41b6c124d2fae9 Hello, There are some African instruments that use a padded type of Ping Pong paddle (cloth wrapped over some thin foam, all, over the wooden paddle?) slapped across the top of some clay pots. The padding seals the strike against the sometimes uneven surface of the pot rim. The trapped air makes a very full, low sound. I had thought that these were air tight except for the top, but maybe they had a hole in them. Anyway, the PVC tubing may create the same effect. The softness of the paddle would prevent the harsh sound of another hard object striking the open rim of the plastic. Think I'll give it a go. Let everyone know. At 11:56 PM 8/17/97 -0300, Matthias Grob wrote: >Patrick tells us: >>Anyhow From Scratch makes there own instruments. Dadson uses PVC pipes. >>They are tuned and mounted in rows, along with other percussive sources. He >>has no heads on them. He uses a " paddle" (very similar in appearance to a >>ping pong paddle) to strike the tubes. I'm not sure where you might mount >>your MIDI trigger, but this may be worth investigating. > >Do they strike the end of the tubes to create the bass sound of the >vibrating air in the tube? >UAKTI, a very amazing band from Belo Horizonte (Brazil) do that for a long >time. They lead all tubes into a box where they put a microphone - a >beautifull bass instrument: quick, percussive and melodic. They have some >CD distributed in the US or even worldwide. There are many other >instruments they created using glass, water, rubber membranes on flutes,,, >No looping. Straight compositions, fast rhythms, almost classic style, >sometimes. > >Matthias > > > > > From ???@??? Mon Aug 18 10:22:58 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 07:37:01 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0SvU-0001RE-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:37:00 -0700 From: "Siobhan Canty" To: Subject: Re: Additional JamMan memory upgrades $65 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:32:10 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <14324584806947@cfpa.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"EVc-IC.A.uEB.wzF-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/302 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:37:00 -0700 X-UIDL: 567ca80ec67d71e906254c1812448799 FYI - I spoke with someone at VisionSoft in Carmel California about chips for the memory upgrade. Each chip is $4.95 each plus $7 in shipping per order. You need four of them so the total would be only about $27.00. The price difference is a little strange (??) But the guy was familiar with the JamMan...So people wanting memory upgrades might want to call them at (800) 735-2633. ---------- > From: Len Seligman > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > Subject: Additional JamMan memory upgrades $65 > Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 11:51 AM > > No one should have to suffer with only 8 seconds of loop time anymore! > > Since a few people responded, I decided to go ahead and buy some more. I > should receive them late next week. So, if anybody else wants JamMan > memory, please let me know and send along your surface mail address. > (Please respond directly to me at seligman@mitre.org and not to the whole > Loopers-Delight list. Thanks.) > > For those wanting technical details, these come in sets of four 1M x 4 bit > Motorola ZIP ICs, part number MCM54400AZ (70 nanoseconds). > > Happy looping, > Len Seligman > > >>I have an extra set of Motorola memory ICs for the JamMan which upgrade it > >>from 8 to 32 seconds of looping. I installed a set without any problem, > >>following the instructions in the JamMan manual. > >> > >>Lexicon charges around $175 a set, but I found these at a chip graveyard; > >>the only hitch was I had to buy a bunch of chips. > >> > >>I only have one set left, however, if multiple people respond and are > >>interested, I could make another buy. > >> > >>Please respond directly to me and not to the whole list. > >> > >>Len Seligman > > > > From ???@??? Mon Aug 18 10:22:58 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 07:50:05 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0T86-0002CY-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:50:02 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:46:15 -0400 (EDT) From: KRosser414@aol.com Message-ID: <970818104425_210880588@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Eventide Harmonizer Resent-Message-ID: <"ACur6B.A.O2B.6BG-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/303 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:50:02 -0700 X-UIDL: e1528af35245d33ea5f95563d81531df So, I'm poking around in a pawn shop the other day and see a two-space rack unit with no model #, just "Eventide Harmonizer" on the front. Looking at the controls, it appears to have harmonizing, delay, flange and possibly looping capabilities. It was in a stack behind the counter, so I didn't get to see what sort of controls it had on the back. They were asking $695 for it. Since the guy there didn't seem to be too keen on dragging it out and hooking it up unless I was flashing a wad of cash I didn't get to listen to it myself. So, I'm wondering: Is anyone familiar with this piece of gear? If so, what are some of it's capabilities? I've always understood Eventide to be a front-runner in the high-end harmonizer business, but is this thing possibly sub-standard compared to current standards? What might some of it's delay and/or looping functions be? Is it potentially worth $695 if it's working? Thanks, Ken From ???@??? Mon Aug 18 10:22:59 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 08:34:21 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0Toy-0004ir-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:34:20 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Used Vortex price Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:29:31 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 Encoding: 32 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"tNFtnB.A.9GE.EqG-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/304 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:34:20 -0700 X-UIDL: 170e64b02f001714d691cc19616dee07 I was at Vennemans (Rockville MD) clearance sale a few months ago and they had them for under $200 new. (~$190) I don't know if they sold them all or not. you can check online at http://www.musicemporium.com/ good luck john >---------- >From: Leonardo Cavallo >Reply To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >Sent: Sunday, August 17, 1997 11:53 AM >To: John_Ott@ATK.COM >Subject: Used Vortex price > > >Hi all > > >I'd like to know the price of a used Vortex. $200 is too much?? > >thanks > >leo > > > From ???@??? Mon Aug 18 10:22:59 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 09:28:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0Ufl-0000dM-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:28:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708181623.MAA17560@user1.channel1.com> X-Sender: seahorse@user1.channel1.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Frank Gerace Subject: Live band use of loopings Resent-Message-ID: <"t-AD1.A.RN.FcH-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/305 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:28:53 -0700 X-UIDL: 279e4e0fe8ba9d29d4d5f68f1ba654f6 In one of the pieces we do (Dreamchild) Cheryl, our bassist/vocalist/wire-strung-harpist, will loop her voice on her jamman over a loop I created with the guitar. The nature of this piece is such that a little drift doesn't hurt the piece. On another one, I loop the entire verse while she accompanies on bass. When she starts singing (the second verse) I switch pathes on VG8 and add some fills and harmonies, a solo, etc. The thing there is the decay of the last chord and the rest in between measures. If I was a little sloppy puching in I can wind up with a fraction of beat more or less and since she plays a pickup line for each verse, she has to figure out the space requirements and adjust her lines accordingly. We don't use drummers so we don't have that problem. Our time is pretty good, so we don't have problems that way very often either. Our synching problems, when they happen at all, seem to be from not having the technology dance of the record buttons down as well as we should. She also uses her jamman to sample lines from a verse that she'll harmonize in the next verse while replaying the sample. Again, the key is foot pedal accuracy. Dreamchild isn't a totally loop oriented entity so all our stuff doesn't utilize looping technology. We are hoping to incorporate more of it, including looping the harp as well. I use the loops for texture (ambient variants) in some songs and build some trancy patterns that are sung over in others. By working with the capabilities of the equipment in composing pieces and wrking with someone else with a looping device, we manage to deal nicely with issue of time drift. At one point I tried looping sections of a song written prior to acquiring my jamman to see if I could play all the parts I overdubbed in the studio at home. This would have required looping a few different patterns of fingerpicking of the same bar length, but I ran into trouble with the arrangement of the song not having the 'right' number of bars of the same length so I couldn't come back in with the right pattern at the right time. As that was a few years back, I don't remember exactly what the arrangement was, but it was the middle section that threw the time off. Nowadays, I write with capabilities of the device in mind. Frank Gerace Dreamchild From ???@??? Mon Aug 18 10:23:01 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 10:11:58 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0VLR-0003h4-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:11:57 -0700 From: John Neilson Message-Id: <199708181706.NAA21887@echonyc.com> Subject: JamMan ROM upgrades? To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:06:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RVFW_D.A.p-C.CEI-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/306 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:11:57 -0700 X-UIDL: 4042341266a195f8d022c588cc7ad3f5 I recently picked up a used JamMan, and I find that the triggering is very 'spongey' from both the footpedal or from MIDI (the Tap button doesn't seem to have this problem). A friend who does studio engineering says he remembers getting a ROM upgrade that took care of this problem, but I didn't see any reference to the on Loopers Delight pages. Can anyone confirm this? Also, the MIDI program change numbers seem to be off by one from what the manual says ('Tap' seems to respond to Program 0, not 1, and so forth). Is this a JamMan glitch or a Vision error or what? Thanks, John ----------------------- Tear Along Dotted Line ----------------------- John Neilson www.mixup.com jneil@mixup.com "a site for sore ears" From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 01:08:13 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 12:15:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0XGn-0004NS-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:15:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:10:06 -0700 (MST) From: Dan Howarth To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Eventide Harmonizer In-Reply-To: <970818104425_210880588@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"g-HRlB.A._xD.Z5J-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/307 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:15:17 -0700 X-UIDL: 4ddaf3d396806eb83a92954a2bc40c82 i think this is an older unit... probably not amazing per say, but still a worthy piece of gear (if it's what you're looking for, of course). check out eventide's www site for better info on this thing. i think it's www.eventide.com but maybe a search would be better. ** Dan Howarth ** ** Classics-History-Music. University of Arizona, Tucson ** ** http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth ** From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 01:08:25 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 16:19:37 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0b5D-0005o1-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:19:35 -0700 Message-ID: <33F8D8D0.DE1@dmans.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:20:48 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" Reply-To: mnelson@dmans.com Organization: Boomerang Musical Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PoLHPD.A.nIF.-eN-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/311 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:19:35 -0700 X-UIDL: 4c66e99f8f9aebb2023a7e16acda041e Dave Trenkel wrote: > > This time, I got a really horrible digital distortion with random crackling > and bursts of digital noise. Much worse than the original distortion I got, > in fact it made the random crackling and bursts even with nothing in the > input. Also, the level LED showed that the unit was overloading, even with > nothing plugged in. This was bad. > Swappped the 8 second chips back in, JamSter works fine. Swapped > 32-sec chips, same as above. For good measure, I swapped the 8-sec's back > in, all OK. > > And if the order of the chips can create > these 2 levels of distortion, then maybe there's an order that can produce > no distortion. Figuring a maximum of 16 different permutations, I thought > I'd try them all and see what happened. > > On the second permutation, I got the desired effect: 32 seconds of > glorious, distortion-free looping. Dave, There is a very rational reason for this behavior: stuck bits. After power up the bits should all be at zero yielding silence on playback, but one or more of the memory modules has some bits stuck at 1. The change in noise with module location probably occurs because of the following. Each module is responsible for storing 4 bits of each 16 bit sample. If the bad module is in the "most significant" position then it represents a huge number and you hear a pop. If the bad module is in the "least significant" position, then the flaw may be completely inaudible. In between locations for the bad module should create in between noise levels. Because you found a very quiet positioning, I'd say your vendor sold you only one defective module. Motley From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 01:08:24 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 15:50:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0adB-0003Tq-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:50:37 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:48:20 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"bTgtqB.A.KxC.lBN-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/309 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:50:37 -0700 X-UIDL: d4623c2987c307adeabfa1edbae1b1cb I wrote to the list saturday about distortion problems I had after upgrading the JamBeing to 32 seconds. So, today I called VisionSoft (800-735-2633) and double checked the part numbers with them, and the chips they sent are the appropriate model (The person at VS said that he'd been getting a lot of orders for these chips by JamMan users lately, BTW). He also said that if there was a defective chip, I shouldn't get any output at all, and recommended that I swap the chips again and see what happens. So I did. This time, I got a really horrible digital distortion with random crackling and bursts of digital noise. Much worse than the original distortion I got, in fact it made the random crackling and bursts even with nothing in the input. Also, the level LED showed that the unit was overloading, even with nothing plugged in. This was bad. Actually, it was rather cool, and if I hadn't been so freaked out, I would have taped a bit, it was really nasty stuff. Swappped the 8 second chips back in, JamSter works fine. Swapped 32-sec chips, same as above. For good measure, I swapped the 8-sec's back in, all OK. So I start thinking, always a dangerous phenomenon. I hadn't really paid attention to what order I had placed the chips into the JamMan, and that seemed to be the only difference between the earlier mild distortion and the current mega-nasty distortion. And if the order of the chips can create these 2 levels of distortion, then maybe there's an order that can produce no distortion. Figuring a maximum of 16 different permutations, I thought I'd try them all and see what happened. On the second permutation, I got the desired effect: 32 seconds of glorious, distortion-free looping. So, now I'm really curious about how this can work this way. I've talked to several other people who have upgraded their own JamMen, and no-one has mentioned this problem. I know a bit about how computer memory, digital delays, etc, work, at least in theory, and I'm pretty mystified at this. I told this story to the tech at VisionSoft, and he's says there's no rational reason for it to behave this way. So, anyone out there got a clue? I suppose that since it's working now, I shouldn't complain, but you know the adage about curiosity and the cat... ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 01:08:27 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 18 17:49:00 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0cTj-0004MT-00; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:48:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:48:00 -0800 To: mnelson@dmans.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ZGFNXC.A.lwD.yxO-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/312 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:48:59 -0700 X-UIDL: 6749e0959c97687ba1107a297894a48c At 6:20 PM 8/18/97, Mikell D. Nelson wrote: >Dave, > There is a very rational reason for this behavior: stuck bits. After >power up the bits should all be at zero yielding silence on playback, >but one or more of the memory modules has some bits stuck at 1. The >change in noise with module location probably occurs because of the >following. Each module is responsible for storing 4 bits of each 16 bit >sample. If the bad module is in the "most significant" position then it >represents a huge number and you hear a pop. If the bad module is in the >"least significant" position, then the flaw may be completely >inaudible. In between locations for the bad module should create in >between noise levels. Because you found a very quiet positioning, I'd >say your vendor sold you only one defective module. > I thought so! I bounced this theory off of the tech at VisionSoft, and he said it was unlikely, but what do you expect from a phone support guy anyway. So, per Mikell and Robbin's suggestions, I'm going to try to get a new chip out of VisionSoft, and see if this solves it for good... Thanks for the advice! ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 01:08:31 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 00:40:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0iu2-0003er-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:40:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:36:37 -0600 (MDT) From: Henry Throop To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: loops in concert, NJ (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6VKUHD.A.PQD.I0U-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/313 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:40:34 -0700 X-UIDL: 684d404932700e8d9883275184b9f013 Forwarded from the space-music list... -henry throop@colorado.edu Begin forwarded message - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Really-From: chuckv@p3.net (Chuck van Zyl) "Star Watch" Friday, August 22, 1997 at 7:30 pm Bill Forcier, Paul Mimlitsch and Phil Grim Chuck Miller opening The Gazebo in the Village of Taunton Forge Shoppiing Center Medford, NJ (intersection of Taunton and Tuckerton Roads) Telephone: (609) 596-7098 On the web, visit the "Events" page of The Star's End Web Site at http://www.starsend.org "Star Watch": "An exploratory journey through time and space". Paul Mimlitch (Chapman Stick/Loops) Bill Forcier (Synthesizers/guitars/Loops) and Phil Grim (Percussion) performing an extended set of loops, improvisations, sequences, and textures. Bill Forcier is a guitar and synthesizer composer from southern NJ. Through his work as a guitarist with the bands "Andromeda" and "Treated and Released", he gained exposure and experience in local clubs in the late '80s. During that time, his interest in the local electronic music scene created a new direction for his work. Forcier's work "Ayer's Rock" appeared on the Synkronos Music sampler "Facets" and his piece "Daguerre Type" was released on the Electronic Dreams collection "Dreamseeds". And on February 1, 1997, Bill's "First Night Out" performance was featured on WXPN's Star's End. Paul Mimlistch (also from the south Jersey area) performs on The Chapman Stick. He uses "loops" to produce beautiful washes of sound and texture, upon which he and his supporting musicians overlay rhythms and solos. Mimlitsch's solo work can best be described as extended "stream of consiousness mindscape explorations" with and in response to textures/rythms built up using various "looping" devices; but in the group context, responding to other player's improvisations. Paul frequently performs solo live concerts (Star's End Gathering XI) as well as with the groups: "Gaia Mind" (jazz improv.), "Folk Fusion" (new age folk), "Invasion of Time" (improvisation), and "Xynolyth". Phil Grim is a percussionist who studied for seven years under Lenny Seidman, and has performed professionally for three years with various artists. His music covers a variety of styles including Indian, African, Latin, and Middle Eastern. The influence of Mystic "goes deep from 20 years of the Philadelphia underground music scene." Through his studies and experiences, he has emassed a varried collection of percussion instruments. Opening the show will be guitarist Chuck Miller performing two original pieces written for acoustic guitar and stick. Paul Mimlitch will be accompanying on stick. "Star Watch" will be an outdoor event. Bring a chair or blanket if you want. In case of bad weather the concert will be moved inside to the Celestial Cafe. Telephone: (609) 596-7098 Directions to "Star Watch": - -Route 70 East to Hartford Road in Medford, NJ (5 minutes past Rts70/73 traffic circle in Marlton, NJ) - -Right on to Hartford Road - -Turn right, at second traffic light, onto Taunton Road - -Pass first traffic signal - -Taunton Forge Shopping Center is on the right For the uninitiated: WHAT IS LOOPED MUSIC? The sole distinguishing feature of looped music is the inclusion of electronically-assisted repetition of audio material. Due to the unpredictable nature of live loops, looped music is often experimental in nature. Musicians who are attracted to this form tend to posess a highly improvisatory leaning, always ready to respond to the electronic realities that that may come into being. The genre encompasses a seemingly infinite range of compositional and performance styles. Remember Robert Fripp and Brian Eno's tape-loop albums of the late 70's? Familiar with Steve Reich's phase pieces? Are you a fan of the current resurgence of noise-collage compositions? This music is worth checking out! xxx ------------------------------ End forwarded message From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 10:02:46 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 07:41:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0pT7-0003eJ-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:41:13 -0700 Message-Id: <9708191440.AA02285@beryllium.lexicon.com> Priority: urgent Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:11:00 -0400 From: "Hogan, Greg" Subject: RE: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 To: Loopers-Delight , robin.b2 X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Resent-Message-ID: <"Cm-Y1C.A.JID.s9a-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/314 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:41:13 -0700 X-UIDL: 1f6e98080bdc7f613e989f5c93ac46ec Good explanation Robin, JAMMAN does not test the DRAM at power up. You can run a DRAM test as follows:Start with the power off. Hold down the "RESET/Bypass" and "Function" buttons and turn the machine on. You should get a "d" in the display. Release the buttons. Press and release the "RESET/BYPASS" button. You should know have a number between 0 and 15 which corresponds with the position of the Mode encoder. Turn the mode encoder to "PUNCH IN LOOP 4." You should now have a "6" in the display. Press and release the "RESET/BYPASS" button to run the test. If the test fails you will have a hexidecimal number between 1 and F flashing in the display which will indicate which DRAM is failing as follows:1=U20, 2=U21, 3=U20 & U21, 4=U22, 5=U20 & U22, 6=U21 & U22, 7=U20, U21 & U22, 8=U23, 9=U20 & U23, A=U21 & U23, B =U20, U21 & U23, C=U22 & U23, D=U20, U22 & U23, E=U21, U22 & U23, F= U20, U21, U22, & U23. I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I can do for you. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 6172-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 ---------- From: robin.b2[SMTP:robin.b2@ukonline.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 18, 1997 12:03 AM To: Loopers-Delight Subject: Re: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 ---------------------------------------------------- > On the second permutation, I got the desired effect: 32 seconds of > glorious, distortion-free looping. > > So, now I'm really curious about how this can work this way. I've talked to Well it sound to me like you *have* got a duff chip there but it's now in a position to cause distortion that's inaudible. Say you had the most significant bit of your sixteen stuck on (or random) you'd have either a massive DC offset on your signal (half the full swing ) or large amounts of noise. Move this duff chip to the least significant bit and all of a sudden your noise of offset is only 1/65535th of the total output swing possible... hardly noticable, in fact there are some intersting techniques for hiding encrypted data (which looks like a random bitstream) in digital audio this way.. simply string out all the bits in you data bytes and use them as the least significant bit in your WAV file or whatever... similar things are done to hide digital copyright data in CD's etc but I digress! All the above is rendered a bit invalid if the jamman runs a memory test on powerup as it should spot this and complain... though it might not spot an error knocked out address bits, this would mean that data got replicated inblocks throughout the RAM and in it's least noticeable form would be like halfing the sample rate...hmmm some jamman inside knowlege needed here! Bob? Anyway the long and the short of it is that there are plenty of possible explanations for a faulty chip making your unit behave as it does so I'd say ask them for one more, swap the ram back to a noisy config, then swap the replacement in one at a time until you find the culprit. Hope this helps a bit, Robin. From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 10:02:48 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 08:16:45 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0q1S-0005vk-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:16:42 -0700 Message-Id: <9708191515.AA02448@beryllium.lexicon.com> Priority: urgent Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:19:00 -0400 From: "Hogan, Greg" Subject: RE: JamMan ROM upgrades? To: Loopers-Delight X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Resent-Message-ID: <"4Vmbf.A.jMF.Ofb-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/315 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:16:42 -0700 X-UIDL: 84ef70a48562f76df130684e44be4099 Hi John, The latest software for JAMMAN is V1.01. I am not aware of it addressing the problem that you have described. If you open the machine up the ROM with the part # 350-09278 will either read V1.00 or V1.01. If you have a V1.00 ROM a new ROM can be purchased for US$18.53 plus shipping and handling. Some MIDI products use numbers 1-128 and some use 0-127. These are the same messages with the numbers offset by 1. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I can do for you. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email:ghogan@lexicon.com ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Monday, August 18, 1997 1:06 PM To: Loopers-Delight Subject: JamMan ROM upgrades? ---------------------------------------------------- I recently picked up a used JamMan, and I find that the triggering is very 'spongey' from both the footpedal or from MIDI (the Tap button doesn't seem to have this problem). A friend who does studio engineering says he remembers getting a ROM upgrade that took care of this problem, but I didn't see any reference to the on Loopers Delight pages. Can anyone confirm this? Also, the MIDI program change numbers seem to be off by one from what the manual says ('Tap' seems to respond to Program 0, not 1, and so forth). Is this a JamMan glitch or a Vision error or what? Thanks, John ----------------------- Tear Along Dotted Line ----------------------- John Neilson www.mixup.com jneil@mixup.com "a site for sore ears" From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 11:04:39 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 10:10:39 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0rne-0006L2-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:10:34 -0700 From: Boris.Michel@mccann.de X-Lotus-FromDomain: ME-EUROPE To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:35:53 +0200 Subject: RE : GUITAR GOOD / KEYBOARD BAD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"TL1HPD.A.dSF.NHd-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/316 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:10:34 -0700 X-UIDL: 1e44fb7ebd47a805c9841993888aec00 ON Tue, 12 Aug 1997 The Man Himself said : > However, for me (the bassist & tightly budding guitarist), I'm sorry, but > PLAYING the keyboard is boring to watch and not that exciting to DO > compared to those beautifully vibrating strings over a wonderfully > sculpted, smooth wood neck. It's a whole lot more fun than sitting > behind what amounts to a big hunk of furniture or, worse, a heavy chunk > of plastic and cheap metal parts. > I love my Nord keyboard, but for sheer playing pleasure, I'd much rather > PLAY my strat or P-bass or Modulus 5-string. It just feeeels good, man. Well, that is another reason why i still get up every morning and thank god for not being a guitar player. Hey OK, FRIPP is great on stage but so is Richard Barbieri. It's a different thing altogether but what the? you're not really there to see them but rather hear them. Ask Robert about this? From ???@??? Sun Mar 22 18:17:14 1998 >From kflint Sun Mar 22 16:49:04 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yGvQE-0007E9-00; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:49:02 -0800 Message-ID: <33F9CE2C.75C4@t-hyp.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:47:45 +0000 From: Jennifer Dumm Reply-To: jeni@t-hyp.com Organization: Trans-Hyperborean Institute of Science X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: email list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J5pBx.A.TfG.YDbF1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4495 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:49:02 -0800 X-UIDL: d53d9300b519579bee869014413e8387 Please add me to your list: Jennifer Dumm jeni@t-hyp.com Thanks. PS I added your site to our links page. -- Trans-Hyperborean Institute of Science http://t-hyp.com ++ this@t-hyp.com P.O. Box 2344 Sausalito, CA 94966 USA (415) 389-1764 ** CONCORUS CD-Rom ** Vulcan's Child Music CDs ** A Collective that Promotes Health and Human Ecology through the use of Regenerative Environmental/Multimedia Systems. From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 11:04:40 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 10:10:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0rnx-0006Ml-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:10:53 -0700 From: Boris.Michel@mccann.de X-Lotus-FromDomain: ME-EUROPE To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:52:11 +0200 Subject: OUCH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"4MeSvC.A.FTF.SHd-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/317 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:10:53 -0700 X-UIDL: 9a69e530a6632ba14e57724346d98c04 On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Andre, The man himself said : > Is there something in the air around here? Are the planets aligned in a > particularly nefarious way? > There's been more outright flaming and off-topic posting on this list over > the last three or four days than in the entire one-year history of the > list *combined*. Please, people, try to be respectful of one another. > This list has always struck me as being significantly better-behaved than > a lot of others, and I'd hate to see it degenerate into a morass of > unrelated hostility. > Like the phrase says: "Mean people SUCK!" So please don't. And then i realized that i had quoted Kim Corbet in my last mail (re:guitar good - keyboard bad) and said that Andre had said this. Sorry Andre? (loop this). From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 22:09:46 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 11:45:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0tHY-00067H-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:45:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:34:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam Levin To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8sG38B.A.W3E.8de-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/319 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:45:32 -0700 X-UIDL: 330183d1d5603887321e569eb920a188 On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Kim Corbet wrote: > However, for me (the bassist & tightly budding guitarist), I'm sorry, but > PLAYING the keyboard is boring to watch and not that exciting to DO > compared to those beautifully vibrating strings over a wonderfully > sculpted, smooth wood neck. It's a whole lot more fun than sitting > behind what amounts to a big hunk of furniture or, worse, a heavy chunk > of plastic and cheap metal parts. Obviously you've never seen Jerry Lee Lewis or Little Richard play piano. -Adam --- "...if one strives at hearing for the sake of constant virtue, out of seeking liberation from cyclic existence, gradually one becomes a Hearer." - Chandrakirti From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 22:09:48 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 11:48:39 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0tKO-0006Mn-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:48:28 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:37:02 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: new instruments Resent-Message-ID: <"3N9jGD.A.7-E.Gfe-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/322 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:48:28 -0700 X-UIDL: 2b3e5d1a5a24815140ceccdad9ca88f7 >There are some African instruments that use a padded type of Ping Pong >paddle (cloth wrapped over some thin foam, all, over the wooden paddle?) Old beach type foam shoes are used, too. >slapped across the top of some clay pots. The padding seals the strike >against the sometimes uneven surface of the pot rim. The trapped air makes >a very full, low sound. I had thought that these were air tight except for >the top, but maybe they had a hole in them. Anyway, the PVC tubing may >create the same effect. The softness of the paddle would prevent the harsh >sound of another hard object striking the open rim of the plastic. Think >I'll give it a go. Let everyone know. Thats it! Bira gave me a clay pot similar to the ones used in Africa. It turned into my favourite instrument. I play it just by hands, though. There is a second hole on the side of the pot which is smaller than my palm, so I can hiting and releasing it creates one bass sound, hitting and keeping it closed another. There are more bass sounds by closing one hole partially while hitting the other. If you close one whole totaly, the vibration happens one octave below in the pot (or tube, in your case) but it hardly does not radiate. There are plenty treble sounds by hiting or caressing the clay in various parts. I glued in a piezo which captures perfectly the treble sounds. Now I need to place a mic in the right spot to get the bass without feedbacking. It will also capture the sound with one hole closed. I am also fascinated by the fact that the instrument only costs $ 3. It fascinates me to have the range of a whole drum set in a little suit case to lay down some rhythm in the loop (I just have to learn to play it better ;-) Matthias From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 22:09:48 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 11:47:52 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0tJj-0006In-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:47:47 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:37:08 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: Eventide Harmonizer Resent-Message-ID: <"h6_MyD.A.F-E.-ee-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/320 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:47:47 -0700 X-UIDL: e9ada9d41db27239c87bd6ce8b3d5d06 >i think this is an older unit... probably not amazing per say, but still a >worthy piece of gear (if it's what you're looking for, of course). >check out eventide's www site for better info on this thing. >i think it's www.eventide.com but maybe a search would be better. If its the one I know, its has a 10 bit converter and only contains some old pitch shift algorythm. Id say its to big and heavy for what it can do. From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 22:09:47 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 11:46:36 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0tIU-0006CA-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:46:30 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:37:18 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: Guitar good,etc,Now Jobson Solo Resent-Message-ID: <"u4ZELB.A.q-E.Efe-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/321 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:46:30 -0700 X-UIDL: e16cbb8f5a46b6c36b5693eda2417e4a Oh yes, I fell in love with this guy when he joined Curved Air in "73, almost a kid, for their "Metamorphosis" album. I also loved Hammer and Patrick Moraz a lot, but the best MiniMoog players for me is Kit Watkins of "Happy the Man". Why is it we are talking about this old stuff? :-) Matthias ><<>There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. >>An amazing piece. >> Doug Michael >> > Also his solo on Zappa's "I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth" from Live >In New York [the title track of Lather is the same]. A beautiful song.>> > >You can also add his Minimoog solo on the track "Rondevous 6:02" from the >live "Night After Night" album, and the semi-solo synth piece, "Alaska" from >the original UK album..... > >Jobson was in the position to grasp the torch of keyboard playing from the >failing hands of Emerson and Wakeman, but the demise of the popularity of >"progressive rock" caused him to go into writing commercial jingles after >1985. No one else has even come close to his abilities and musicality (IMHO). >Well, he did win some Clio awards....but I can't help feeling disappointed by >the seemingly massive waste of an enourmous talent. > >Marshall (out of lurk mode, keyboardist for 20-some years, guitarist for 3) From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 11:04:40 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 10:50:36 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0sQK-0001cT-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:50:32 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:48:56 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: RE: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 Cc: Loopers-Delight , "robin.b2" Resent-Message-ID: <"KJNriB.A.KGB.8ud-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/318 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:50:32 -0700 X-UIDL: d724d56f3e0f254eeb60da3ab54ad292 At 11:11 AM 8/19/97, Hogan, Greg wrote: >Good explanation Robin, > >JAMMAN does not test the DRAM at power up. You can run a DRAM test as >follows:Start with the power off. Hold down the "RESET/Bypass" and >"Function" buttons and turn the machine on. You should get a "d" in the >display. Release the buttons. Press and release the "RESET/BYPASS" >button. You should know have a number between 0 and 15 which corresponds >with the position of the Mode encoder. Turn the mode encoder to "PUNCH >IN LOOP 4." You should now have a "6" in the display. Press and release >the "RESET/BYPASS" button to run the test. If the test fails you will >have a hexidecimal number between 1 and F flashing in the display which >will indicate which DRAM is failing as follows:1=U20, 2=U21, 3=U20 & U21, >4=U22, 5=U20 & U22, 6=U21 & U22, 7=U20, U21 & U22, 8=U23, 9=U20 & U23, >A=U21 & U23, B =U20, U21 & U23, C=U22 & U23, D=U20, U22 & U23, E=U21, U22 >& U23, F= U20, U21, U22, & U23. > >I hope this helps. > >Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that >I can do for you. > >Best regards, > >Greg Hogan >Lexicon Customer Service >Phone 6172-280-0372 >FAX 617-280-0499 Greg, this is exactly the information I need, profound thanks for the post. Perhaps this should go onto the JamMan page at Kim's site? So, I ran the above diagnostic, and I get a "+" in the lower left corner of the display. I presume this means that the DRAM checks out, right? Still mystified and running on 15 bits... ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 22:10:00 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 14:30:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0vqz-0002pc-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:30:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:19:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Henry Throop To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: FS: Vortex (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DVVysC.A.JuB.p3g-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/323 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:30:17 -0700 X-UIDL: 304ad39ff64226c0142f41507d49f13d I got this today from Rogue -- I've already got one so someone else can scoop it up. -henry throop@colorado.edu > > We have one in good shape with manual and three month warranty for $119 > plus shipping, COD or credit card. > -- > Dick Michaels > Rogue Music, NYC > http://www.roguemusic.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 22:10:01 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 14:36:22 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0vv5-0003B1-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:34:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:22:20 -0600 (MDT) From: Henry Throop To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: FS: Vortex (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2pqvrD.A.SAC.Z6g-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/324 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:34:31 -0700 X-UIDL: 3109fcd426f065aa72016b4f3160b0db Oops - Rogue's e-mail is roguemus@ix.netcom.com. I've dealt with them in the past and had no problems. -henry throop@colorado.edu From ???@??? Tue Aug 19 22:10:02 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 19 14:47:03 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x0w76-00049t-00; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:46:56 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970819143048.00976a80@global.california.com> X-Sender: sechevar@global.california.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:30:48 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Sean Echevarria Subject: Re: FS: Vortex (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TifYoC.A.zyC.WDh-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/325 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:46:56 -0700 X-UIDL: 62e7095425c0dd6e1eefe9a4b7253209 Yep - I just dealt with them to, thanks and sorry to anyone else Sean At 03:22 PM 8/19/97 -0600, you wrote: >Oops - Rogue's e-mail is roguemus@ix.netcom.com. I've dealt with them >in the past and had no problems. > >-henry >throop@colorado.edu From ???@??? Thu Aug 21 05:11:22 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 20 14:52:41 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1IgA-0005w9-00; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:52:38 -0700 Message-ID: <33FA10C5.635B@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:31:49 +0100 From: robin bussell Reply-To: robin.b2@ukonline.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l6qOc.A.u0E.RV2-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/332 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:52:38 -0700 X-UIDL: 82d04fec9c19c9baadb93cfb1c046420 > > presumably the jamman has a more complete diagnostics test. Could we get > the whole thing for the web site? > While You're about it I found a similar mode on the vortex the other day though I think it might only be entered when it detects a problem with the RAM (I was attempting to expand it at the time... sorry guys, no success before you all scream :-) ) any further details available? Cheers, Robin. From ???@??? Sun Mar 15 19:16:36 1998 >From kflint Sun Mar 15 18:33:30 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.73 #8) id 0yEPiJ-0003UH-00; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970819190032.007b9100@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:00:32 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: hearing, gender, new info... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980314120011.0069266c@mail.utexas.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19970817173858.007a39c0@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pURrVC.A.RWC.s2ID1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4309 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:19 -0800 X-UIDL: 0ea433e7255809fa6dce4cc292a8c954 Very interesting post, thank you. You touched on something that my roommate and I were talking about in regards to this topic. Though there may by be differences in sensitivity or processing of incomming audio, we still have the ability to choose what we want to listen to. So I think both are important. I certainly don't think looping is a gender based activity. I think that some kinds of repetition are plainly annoying, but I would think they'd be just as annoying to a man as well. This is all very interesting stuff, there are many exeptions to things and more things to learn and experience, it makes life more interesting and perfect. smiles, Corynne At 12:00 PM 3/14/98 -0600, you wrote: >I think your the gender hearing issue is an interesting point and I think >probably one step might be to contextualize it a bit more, not to say you >haven't already? >It could probably be said that in the business environment of today men >tend to compete in a narrow let's get this done way. That is not to >include all industries but with respect to an office, results oriented >career, I would suggest it is. >I think that this is a positive issue for women because they will be able >to think differently about how to solve things. >This is quite an extension from hearing, but I think it has to be with >being less fact-comparison these are statisitces based living, following >the Norman Rockwell family where women were mainly housewives, men begin >increasingly to work info-based work, not to say women weren't working >outside the home! ...Now, a greater number of women than men are going to >college. >I think the idea of sound sensitivity due to a baby's cry, that >conditioning is very important too in a women's sensitivity ability. >Further having the sound dynamics at high frequencies being off in cheaper >systems. >It seems that to put both abilities together, on the one side to hear most >everything, and the other to be able to focus on just one thing are very >important, rational vs intuitive processes. >I also think that while women do already have an inborn noise ability, they >also can be driven to focus, and men the opposite. Being male, I have >learned to listen to sound and determine what amp works, what speakers are >best grounded, etc. not only that but what music I choose to work with as >a DJ. >I hope I have added to the discussion some interesting points, and would >like to add some about looping. Is looping a gender issue, would the >reptition and effects off it preclude one or another species more, or both? > Maybe it's just a question of access still? Maybe men should have women >make decisions on their sound units? >(-; >Mjh > > > > From ???@??? Sun Mar 15 19:16:37 1998 >From kflint Sun Mar 15 18:33:46 1998 Received: from falcon [207.171.193.27] by ferret.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #8) id 0yEPie-0003X7-00; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:40 -0800 Received: from ferret.slip.net [207.171.193.6] (mail) by falcon.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yEPic-0000QQ-00; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:38 -0800 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.73 #8) id 0yEPiJ-0003UG-00; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970819191045.007bdb10@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:10:45 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: ears & more In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GmJL5B.A.5WC.v2ID1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4310 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:19 -0800 X-UIDL: 96ca43961dfd8a24f8af5d033a8009a2 I've also had tinnitis ever since I was little and I don't remember ever not hearing it. I do however hear other sounds in my head which I'll go into when I have some more time to write about them. smiles, Corynne At 03:30 PM 3/14/98 EST, you wrote: > > ><< do you hear a sound in your head? >> > >Yes, and I've been meaning to look up some stuff on tinnitis, but I haven't >yet. I've got this VERY high pitched keening in my ears, which I think is >tinnitis. Here's the thing--I've had it for as long as I can remember, way >before I started to listen to loud music. I had a lot of ear infections as a >kid, so I think that's got something to do with it. It's really loud, when I'm >paying attention to it (it's always there). > >Now this is wierd: I can control the volume of my tinnitis. Whether I am >actually making it get louder/softer is probably impossible to say, but it >seems that I can actually control how loud the ringing is. Strange. > >Here's another thing: I think having tinnitis for my whole life has made my >hearing much more acute. Obviously, my actual hearing is not as good as many >people, but my ability to listen actively is much greater--I'm really good at >musical dictation/transcription, etc. I've really had to learn to listen past >the ringing in my ears, so I find it easier to listen past other extraneous >noise. At least, that's how it seems. The flip side to this is that I find it >nearly impossible to truly "tune out" background music (non-musical noises >aren't such a problem). Elevators and grocery stores can be a living hell.... > >Ringingly, > >Drew Wheeler > > > From ???@??? Sun Mar 15 19:16:38 1998 >From kflint Sun Mar 15 18:33:56 1998 Received: from weasel.slip.net [207.171.193.21] by ferret.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #8) id 0yEPin-0003YS-00; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:49 -0800 Received: from ferret.slip.net [207.171.193.6] (mail) by falcon.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yEPim-0000RA-00; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:48 -0800 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.73 #8) id 0yEPiZ-0003Wa-00; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:35 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970819192746.007c4df0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:27:46 -0700 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: important question! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Bp1WgC.A.TZC.92ID1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4311 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:35 -0800 X-UIDL: 0a308043b015c04e14177b41208f7ce6 Hi all, does anyone know about any plans to give the edp the ability to save it's current audio data on a floppy? Is there any way to save this information via sysex? As a comment, I think it would be nice to have somehting like a scsi port to plug a disk drive into. It's a pain to back things up to cassette all the time... smiles, Corynne From ???@??? Wed Aug 20 10:02:57 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 20 02:43:08 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x17IA-0006vZ-00; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 02:43:06 -0700 X-Sender: LEO@MAIL.DINONET.IT X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Leonardo Cavallo Subject: E-MAIL REQUEST Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:45:51 +0200 Message-ID: <19970820094550843.AAA218@Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"dqiyDC.A.0OG.itr-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/326 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 02:43:06 -0700 X-UIDL: b1bcba927d934e8910cf22f03d690885 Hi all In my Vortex research, shipping the unit in Italy seems to be the big obstacle. Someone knows the e-mail address of that German guy (a bassist??) demonstrating for Lexicon?? I remember UFO and something else.... he appeared on the list some months ago.... thanks leo From ???@??? Wed Aug 20 10:02:57 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 20 05:57:01 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1AJo-0000NQ-00; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:57:00 -0700 Date: 20 Aug 97 08:51:48 EDT From: Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Kit Watkins Message-ID: <970820125148_74074.1316_GHP75-1@CompuServe.COM> Resent-Message-ID: <"a1sWKD.A.NL.Vju-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/327 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:57:00 -0700 X-UIDL: ee37a41e1f96c05cc873bdd99ab12f47 Matthias writes: >I also loved Hammer and Patrick Moraz a lot, but the best MiniMoog players >for me is Kit Watkins of "Happy the Man". Alright! Someone else who got it!!! As a guitarist, there are lots of guitar players I can point to as being big influences, but the number one influence on my lead playing was actually Kit. His mini moog sound on "Crafty Hands" is the greatest! Just stunning the way he was able to wrap all that emotion and beauty into his playing, and when he added the echoplex to it, it had everything I was looking for. Kit's new work is quite excelllent as well, though very different from the Happy The Man stuff: very ambient. And he's using tons of loopage, though often using a sequencer as a looper. And, he's an exceptional person as well. Thanks for bringing him up, Matthias, it's nice to think of him this morning. Jon Durant From ???@??? Wed Aug 20 10:02:58 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 20 06:12:13 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1AYW-0000yc-00; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:12:12 -0700 Message-Id: <9708201310.AA04861@beryllium.lexicon.com> Priority: urgent Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:50:00 -0400 From: "Hogan, Greg" Subject: RE: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 To: Loopers-Delight X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Resent-Message-ID: <"Xpv6lD.A._q.owu-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/328 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:12:12 -0700 X-UIDL: 09480b8e1c0f68739053a7961d1ebde9 Hi Dave, Yes, you get a + in the display when the test passes. Dear Kim, You are welcome to place this diagnostic anywhere you'd like. Best regards, Greg ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 10:48 AM To: Loopers-Delight Cc: Loopers-Delight; robin.b2 Subject: RE: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 ---------------------------------------------------- At 11:11 AM 8/19/97, Hogan, Greg wrote: >Good explanation Robin, > >JAMMAN does not test the DRAM at power up. You can run a DRAM test as >follows:Start with the power off. Hold down the "RESET/Bypass" and >"Function" buttons and turn the machine on. You should get a "d" in the >display. Release the buttons. Press and release the "RESET/BYPASS" >button. You should know have a number between 0 and 15 which corresponds >with the position of the Mode encoder. Turn the mode encoder to "PUNCH >IN LOOP 4." You should now have a "6" in the display. Press and release >the "RESET/BYPASS" button to run the test. If the test fails you will >have a hexidecimal number between 1 and F flashing in the display which >will indicate which DRAM is failing as follows:1=U20, 2=U21, 3=U20 & U21, >4=U22, 5=U20 & U22, 6=U21 & U22, 7=U20, U21 & U22, 8=U23, 9=U20 & U23, >A=U21 & U23, B =U20, U21 & U23, C=U22 & U23, D=U20, U22 & U23, E=U21, U22 >& U23, F= U20, U21, U22, & U23. > >I hope this helps. > >Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that >I can do for you. > >Best regards, > >Greg Hogan >Lexicon Customer Service >Phone 6172-280-0372 >FAX 617-280-0499 Greg, this is exactly the information I need, profound thanks for the post. Perhaps this should go onto the JamMan page at Kim's site? So, I ran the above diagnostic, and I get a "+" in the lower left corner of the display. I presume this means that the DRAM checks out, right? Still mystified and running on 15 bits... ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Wed Aug 20 10:03:05 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 20 09:40:28 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1Do2-00015z-00; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:40:26 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:30:53 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: E-MAIL REQUEST Resent-Message-ID: <"xi7go.A.GL.cux-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/329 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:40:26 -0700 X-UIDL: ddcb9d4e9ac6192a5b07d6181b30a8bd >Someone knows the e-mail address of that German guy (a bassist??) >demonstrating for Lexicon?? I remember UFO and something else.... >he appeared on the list some months ago.... UFO WALTER From ???@??? Wed Aug 20 10:03:05 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 20 09:38:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1DmA-0000tw-00; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:38:30 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:31:05 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: Kit Watkins Resent-Message-ID: <"cpT6eD.A.GM.kux-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/330 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:38:30 -0700 X-UIDL: 10388c01c701cbc70e2a9c0b6b446575 >Matthias writes: >>I also loved Hammer and Patrick Moraz a lot, but the best MiniMoog player >>for me is Kit Watkins of "Happy the Man". Jon Durant reacted firmly: >... Just stunning the way he was able to wrap all that emotion and beauty >into his playing, and when he added the echoplex to it, it had everything I was >looking for. the tape one? I was not aware... >Kit's new work is quite excelllent as well, though very different from the >Happy >The Man stuff: very ambient. And he's using tons of loopage, though often using >a sequencer as a looper. And, he's an exceptional person as well. Wow, I was not aware he got into this, too! Give us some directions. I would really love to listen to this! From ???@??? Thu Aug 21 05:11:20 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 20 13:44:51 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1HcW-0006tW-00; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:44:48 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9708201310.AA04861@beryllium.lexicon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:12:20 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: RE: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"jy1j1C.A.9lF.nV1-z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/331 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:44:48 -0700 X-UIDL: b1d30a574d57687193a1003a33b3633a At 9:50 AM -0400 8/20/97, Hogan, Greg wrote: >Dear Kim, > >You are welcome to place this diagnostic anywhere you'd like. Well, that's a dangerous request...... presumably the jamman has a more complete diagnostics test. Could we get the whole thing for the web site? thanks, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 21 10:29:17 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 21 09:40:30 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1aHc-0004El-00; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:40:28 -0700 X-From_:pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk Thu Aug 21 09:39:16 1997 Received: from rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk [130.209.176.2] by ferret with esmtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1aGP-00049A-00; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:39:14 -0700 Message-Id: <16405.199708211638@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Old-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:38:29 +0100 Received: from [130.209.178.206] (mac-780 [130.209.178.206] sender pycraft) by rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk (8.6.12/UK-2.2a/elec-sparc) with SMTP id RAA16405 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:38:29 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: Cool FX X-Diagnostic: /usr/lib/sendmail Loopers-Delight-dist@annihilist.com failed X-Envelope-To: Loopers-Delight Sender: SmartList Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:40:28 -0700 X-UIDL: 5e17f6b89815f21bcb52a45101d09766 Does anybody know if there are any pages dedicated to vintage FX? I've found the Sound Barrier sales site, but I'm looking for something a bit more in-depth. Also, could someone re-post the Mutator website? thanks, Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 23 04:54:28 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 22 09:22:47 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1wTy-00006w-00; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:22:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:13:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Nameless to the Goddess To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: new instruments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6TktVC.A.zuG.Drb_z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/334 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:22:42 -0700 X-UIDL: f238dfb18623c0e1adbea170b444de68 Matthias, sounds really neat. But where in the hell did you buy such a nifty clay pot (just any pot wouldn't do). DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111@afn.org <*> Why am I such a dork? The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 B5 (passing beyond the Rim) list: babylon5-request@gatekey.com From ???@??? Sat Aug 23 04:54:38 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 22 17:49:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x24Oi-0001A8-00; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:49:48 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970818104425_210880588@emout07.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:51:07 +0100 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: Eventide Harmonizer Resent-Message-ID: <"f_AgtC.A.hv.XKj_z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/338 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:49:48 -0700 X-UIDL: 48476f6fa326c7af0a36a678bbcbff8b >So, I'm poking around in a pawn shop the other day and see a two-space rack >unit with no model #, just "Eventide Harmonizer" on the front. Looking at >the controls, it appears to have harmonizing, delay, flange and possibly >looping capabilities. It was in a stack behind the counter, so I didn't get >to see what sort of controls it had on the back. They were asking $695 for >it. Perhaps the model you refer to is the H-910. It is an older unit, analog, I suppose. I picked one up in a used gear shop in Spokane, WA for $150 a couple years ago. I really like, although it is not for looping. In case this is the unit you are talking about, here's the scoop: It's got 1 input, 2 outputs (all-balanced, with screw-terminals, rather than jacks). For each output, you can select one (or more) of 4 delay times: 7.5, 15, 30, and 60 ms. (So, unless you are planning to use 60 ms loops, this is not for looping). The pitch of each successive delay can be adjusted using one of 4 modes: 1. Manual control. Here you set the pitch ratio. A ratio of 1.0 will act just like a delay. Pitch > 1 will cause the pitch to increase.... < 1 causes it to decrease. The pitch range is 0.5 to 2.0. 2. Anti-feedback control. Not exactly sure how this works, but I think the pitch is proportional to the strength of the input signal. (anybody have more info about this??) 3. Keyboard input 4. CV input There is also a input level and feedback control. I find that this unit is especially good for real-time performance on percussive sounds. Tweaking the feedback and manual controls real-time creates some real mind-bending sounds. I like getting a druim rhythm playing into it, then tweak the knobs, like it was instrument itself. I don't use it for much else. It certainly isn't worth $700 to me, although I;ve seen them go for $500. Cheers, Chris From ???@??? Sat Aug 23 04:54:29 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 22 10:39:40 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1xgR-0005Bo-00; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:39:39 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:30:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com Message-ID: <970822132946_1817529699@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: the GT-5 LOOPS! Resent-Message-ID: <"QMRHlD.A.RWE.R0c_z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/335 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:39:39 -0700 X-UIDL: 0ffe5dd15b952320789d911ebcec9396 I just discovered an amazing looping application on the Boss GT-5, which has only 1800ms of delay. BUT, it has a delay spill-over function such that if you write the same delay patch to several presets then change the other non-delay perameters, when you select the different patches with a loop running, the held delay contents carry over to run thru whatever new fx are set up the different presets (still on Hold, even tho the control pedal--set to activate hold--now is OFF; hit it twice to fade away the loop, in any of the presets). Each one can be completely different except in the delay settings--i just chose max delay and set up the hold thing--including what kind of basic voice you'll have in that preset: acoustic, ring mod, synth, pitch-shifted, whatever. So, with a bank of five such presets, you can create a loop with any of the five different voices, and send that loop to five different post-processing configurations. I've got auto wah set up after the delay in each, so I have five different frequency sweeps to choose to send my loop thru, with the expression pedal set to master level. Sending thru a synth or ring mod voice, with slowly shifting auto wah, on which the frequency rate is being swept by the internal triangle wave, is amazing, plus I've got 4 other fx chains I can send it thru, and on each one there's a different guitar voice I can play over it, let alone the other outputs on my three-output guitar. This technique has kept the same little synth figure entertaining thru the entire course of writing this post...it's always changing as the wah brings things in and out. I've only just discovered this, so I'm sure there are many variations...there's also a sound-on-sound function that will probably work the same way. whew! this is a serious box! dpc Anybody know if there's a GT-5 user group/web-ftp site? From ???@??? Sat Aug 23 04:54:29 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 22 10:50:01 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1xqS-0005zT-00; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:50:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199708221755.KAA11843@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: the GT-5 LOOPS! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:50:21 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8XOwCD.A.MRF.6Ad_z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/336 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:50:00 -0700 X-UIDL: 08efdc6d899a75eb958bd24ba862f343 > From: Dpcoffin@aol.com > I just discovered an amazing looping application on the Boss GT-5, which has I'm not familiar with the GT-5. Is it an effects processor or what? The synth and ring mod modes sound interesting. How much do they run? Matt From ???@??? Sat Aug 23 04:54:32 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 22 11:58:35 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x1yun-0002lh-00; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:58:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:53:20 -0400 From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) Message-Id: <199708221853.AA27628@world.std.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: the GT-5 LOOPS! Resent-Message-ID: <"n30Xx.A.4MC.kAe_z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/337 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:58:33 -0700 X-UIDL: 28848e8b71f6deb75abdd5e4a9edcced >I'm not familiar with the GT-5. Is it an effects processor or what? The >synth and ring mod modes sound interesting. How much do they run? For lots of info, check out American Musical Supply's page on it: http://www.webcom.com/promusic/aams/products/bogt5.html (root http://www.americanmusical.com/) There's also Roland's shorter page: http://www.rolandus.com/products/MI/MIboss_GME.html#GT-5 AMS's page implies that the other contemporary Boss FX units should support the same mode. The GT-5 is $800 from AMS; the GX-700 is a rackmount that sounds similar, $550 from AMS; the ME-8 is another pedalFX, sounds similar but without COSM, $400 from AMS who say it has "up to 2000 ms" delay; they say the same for the GX-700. They don't report a time for the GT-5's delay, but it seems odd that it would be shorter than the other two. While we're mentioning FX processors, I'm just looking into getting some FX that I can use with looping. Im thinking there are a lot of places I'd like to be able to put FX: before the looper (e.g. traditional guitar FX) after the looper (postprocessing) in the feedback loop I figure the last one can be done externally, and the reduction in sound quality is liveable, although it might be nice to find a looper+FX pair that could communicate digitally, but probably not worth worrying about--loops are going to deteriorate this way no matter what. For postprocessing the loop, it would be really nice to have a single box with several knobs that can be turned simultaneously; are there any midpriced FX boxes with that ability? I'm thinking the best thing for it may just be a bunch of stomp boxes, so all of the knobs are simultaneously accessible. The other big question is, if I don't want to buy several FX units, I'll want some way to route different things to the FX unit. A mixer's fx-loop isn't really the right thing, since it's a series thing: instrument -> FX1 -> looper -> FX2 -> output Of course, if I have two source instruments (e.g. guitar and vocals), then I really want the option to send the vocals or the guitar to the looper, while the other bypasses it. All of this seems to call for some kind of routing technology, like a very souped up a/b box, but it doesn't really need mixing (except for externally feeding back the looper). Some sort of a digitally-controlled mini-patchbay, or something. (Ideally MIDIfied.) I don't know of anything like that--I imagine there must be something like it but it's probably very expensive. Rather than spend many hundred dollars on such a thing, I'm probably just better off buying more mid-priced FX boxes. So my current guess is to just get a stereo FX box which has two independent FX processors, get some kind of cheap mixer to allow for external looping, and one or two a/b boxes... but it seems like kindof a pain. So any of you want to comment on how you deal with this stuff, specifically the "want to tweak lots of knobs" and the "how to route it all" issues? Sean Barrett From ???@??? Sat Aug 23 04:54:39 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 22 19:40:33 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x267s-0006Q2-00; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:40:32 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:35:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com Message-ID: <970822223534_465308698@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: the GT-5 LOOPS! Resent-Message-ID: <"Ii4lOB.A.30F.2yk_z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/339 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:40:32 -0700 X-UIDL: 237e0c52775ff1a3649fe9ebcfe85b30 GT-5 Update--does anybody else on this list HAVE a gt-5?: <> Actually, it seems each patch must have the fx loaded in the same order, even tho some can be off and they can be set up differently... From ???@??? Thu Mar 19 00:11:53 1998 >From kflint Wed Mar 18 21:04:39 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFXVA-0001Fa-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:04:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970822195329.007bee20@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:53:29 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: hearing, gender, new info... In-Reply-To: <01BD5051.4D284620.lahatch@dnai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zCsN-D.A.9rG.0PKE1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4424 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:04:25 -0800 X-UIDL: 06388826db36b2fb3b07d9ac55da617d Thanks Laurie, great reply, very interesting and thought provoking as usual. If you get the transcripts, please let me know as I'd be interested in getting a copy myself to look over again. talk with ya soon... (-: smiles, Corynne > Corynne wrote: >> >> This might be of more concern to Laurie, (as she was asking about more >>info about hearing and gender) Sarahjane and Kim but I remebered some other >>information I learned about possible differences in hearing between the >>genders. There was a special edition of 20/20 a few months back which was >>strictly devoted to the discussion of cerebral differences between genders. >[snip...] > >Thanks Corynne! Very interesting, and kind of funny too - not having seen the >program, I was reminded of the classic sitcom scene of a hapless husband >oblivious to his frustrated wife, with countless satirical variations that are >flattering to neither ;-). The question of which perceptual behaviors are >culturally/environmentally learned as opposed to being physiological in origin >is extremely complex. (The old conundrum "which comes first, the chicken or >the egg" comes to mind, not to mention the tangled circular web of >physiological changes *triggered* by certain behaviors.) Anyway, I emailed ABC >to see if the transcript and references could be gotten. > >>to one story and not the other one. The conclusions of the researchers >>were that women's attentions will be drawn back and forth between the two >>stories and get bits and pieces of each and have an almost impossible time >>staying on one story while the other one is also going which is exactly >>what happened to me. I've had this before also and it's really annoying >>sometimes but it's good if your trying to listen to more than one person at >>a time. Supposedly, men can tune out one story much more easily and listen >>to it only, they seem to have trouble listening to more than one thing at a >>time. > >I wonder if this occurs primarily with speech, or if any of these supposed >differences are also evident in how males and females perceive music -- >multiple layers, counterpoint, melody, etc.? > >More sophisticated, aware listening, as musicians generally experience it, is a >skill that can be developed with training and practice. It seems that such >people would not necessarily populate the statistical norm that is being >discussed here. > >My sweetie, who was a fighter pilot, just told me an interesting and vaguely >related story about airline pilot training. (This was a while back, when there >were extremely few, if any, women in either the cockpit or control tower.) The >problem was alerting the pilot, whose attention was already considerably >divided due to a flight emergency, to extremely important warnings. During >landing, one of the most critical signals is to lower the @#$%^&* landing >wheels! They found out the hard way that big blinking red warning lights were >often ineffective. They added a unique, loud, and persistent beep. Some >pilots *still* didn't notice, and would land gear up. A blaring horn blast was >tried, but occasionally missed, the consequences of which tended to make >passengers rather unhappy. Then somebody had an inspiration... get this: the >most effective warning device, amidst the general cockpit hubbub, was a woman's >voice calmly telling the guy to get his gear down! (No comments from the peanut >gallery.) I wonder if it is still as effective nowadays, since women's voices >are much more common in that environment? Also, what works best with women >pilots? ...Hey, I bet they don't even *need* to be warned, they're already on >top of it! ~#:-)))) > >Anyway, I can hear it now. Music For Landing Very Large Aircraft... > >Gee, the "my girlfriend's taste in music" thread has gone through a few >permutations! (BTW, what does this list usually talk about? Something about >loops? Trying to remember...) > >and smiles to you, too, Corynne -- >laurie > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 19 00:11:52 1998 >From kflint Wed Mar 18 21:04:26 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFXV1-0001ER-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:04:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970822195629.007ba7d0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:56:29 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: hearing, gender, old info... In-Reply-To: <199803160554.AAA01404@newman.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bj3Zb.A.ZqG.pPKE1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4422 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:04:15 -0800 X-UIDL: 91eecd74570dc3722c8d478d7f0e5cf8 Thanks Tom, I'll check it out if I can. (-: smiles, Corynne At 12:54 AM 3/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >A must read concerning hearing, environmental sounds and a whole lot more is >R. Murray Schaefer's "The Tuning of the World"--actually don't recall >anything on gender differences but a fascinating book on our sonic landscape > >drone on~~~~~~~~~~~~Tom > >great thread . . . >Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net > > > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 19 00:11:54 1998 >From kflint Wed Mar 18 21:22:01 1998 Received: from weasel.slip.net (falcon.slip.net) [207.171.193.21] by ferret.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFXm7-0003Xa-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:21:55 -0800 Received: from ferret.slip.net [207.171.193.6] (mail) by falcon.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFWgL-0003U0-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:11:53 -0800 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFWg0-00026e-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:11:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970822200722.007a76d0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 20:07:22 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: Phantom ringing In-Reply-To: References: <350CEFE0.514@nyfac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZPyFKD.A.C5.tjJE1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4421 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:11:32 -0800 X-UIDL: a73e1f1b0de69f35355eac8360ff36be Yes Kim, this happens to me as well. It's usually above 440 htz or, I should say mostly always. I don't know that it happens as frequently with me though. smiles, Corynne At 09:56 AM 3/16/98 -0800, you wrote: >Throughout my life I've had a very odd thing happen with my hearing. It >happens rarely, once every other month or so. The hearing in one ear or the >other will do a complete fade out and be replaced by a high pitched tone. I >won't be able to hear anything else in that ear. This will last about a >minute, and the tone will slowly fade away while real sounds slowly fade >back in. Very rarely, it will be a low pitch instead. I've never been able >to relate it's occurance to anything, always completely unexpected. It >would be quite frightening if I hadn't been experiencing it my whole life. >Does this happen to anyone else, or am I a freak? > >kim > > >At 9:24 AM +0000 3/16/98, tbajus wrote: >>TritoneDW wrote: >>> >>> Here's the thing--I've had it for as long as I can remember, way >>> before I started to listen to loud music. I had a lot of ear infections as a >>> kid, so I think that's got something to do with it. >> >>I have always had a phantom ringing in my ears as well, long before I >>started playing guitar. I have some pretty intense allergies, which >>lead to a alot of sinusitus and bronchitus (once I lived with a cat and >>got pneumonia), and seeing as how those two systems are fairly >>interconnected I have always assumed that they were related. I have >>also heard that some small amount of ringing is fairly natural, and >>nothing much to worry about in most cases. Could be wrong though- does >>anybody know for sure? >> >> >>Trevor > > >______________________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html >http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com > > > > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 19 00:12:02 1998 >From kflint Wed Mar 18 22:37:35 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFXVp-0001L4-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:05:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970822202738.007c5960@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 20:27:38 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: important question! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"z-VHDC.A.frG.wPKE1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4423 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:05:05 -0800 X-UIDL: d03b59ab8459a3e3e6cfe1e37c4a06d1 Thanks very much Kim for the great advice and info... (-: smiles, Corynne At 07:08 PM 3/16/98 -0800, you wrote: > >>At 07:27 PM 8/19/97 -0700, Goddess wrote: >>> Hi all, does anyone know about any plans to give the edp the ability to >>>save it's current audio data on a floppy? > >the current hardware doesn't have any way to support such a thing. you >wouldn't want to use a floppy anyway, that's too small too hold much audio >data. > > >>> Is there any way to save this >>>information via sysex? > >yes, you can do midi sample dump, which is unbearably slow if your loops are >any longer than about 1 second. (midi sample dump is just slow, nothing to do >with the echoplex.) > > >>>As a comment, I think it would be nice to have >>>somehting like a scsi port to plug a disk drive into. It's a pain to back >>>things up to cassette all the time... > >I agree. We (aurisis research) certainly plan to add support for such things >to our software someday. It will be quite some time before it would show up >in any products, though. > > >One idea for backup is to us a sequencer program that supports hard disk >recording. Record the loop audio from the edp to the hard disk, and add midi >commands in the sequencer for start and stop record at the beginning and end >of the audio loop. Then when you want to load the loop back in, you just >play the sequence. It would start record on the echoplex while playing audio >to it, and stop at the correct point. You could also have midi commands in >the sequence that set all the parameters to where you want them for that >particular loop. So you would play the sequence and be all ready to go. A >nice benefit of this is that you could actually listen to the loop while it >is "loading" so it might even be more convenient in real-time use than >waiting for a scsi load. The down side would be the extra pass through a/d >and d/a convertors. > >kim > >______________________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html >http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com > > > > > From ???@??? Thu Mar 19 00:12:03 1998 >From kflint Wed Mar 18 22:41:35 1998 Received: from weasel.slip.net (falcon.slip.net) [207.171.193.21] by ferret.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFXVx-0001MK-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:05:13 -0800 Received: from ferret.slip.net [207.171.193.6] (mail) by falcon.slip.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFXVu-0005in-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:05:10 -0800 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yFXVZ-0001Io-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:04:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970822210714.007c4570@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:07:14 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re:phantom ringing In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"iuUDW.A.WtG.8PKE1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4425 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:04:49 -0800 X-UIDL: 6bec59ff1e8131fc409be5a97fa836eb This is a little off-topic, but one of Tesla's accidents was responsible for bringing the concept of microwaves to light. And as another fact, He also caused a rather large explosion in a Denver power plant but I'm not sure of the year. smiles, Corynne At 10:14 AM 3/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >One of Tesla's big concerns was the possibility of transmitting power >without wires. J.P. Morgan began financing the gear to do this (a tower >was built on Long Island, with which T. expected to send AC to Europe), but >someone asked JP what free power would do for him, and that was the end of >that.... > >Tesla knew a lot about resonance, and stated that, given enough juice, he >could crack the planet itself open like an orange--ouch. He created an >earthquake in Chinatown here (NYC) with these principles. This guy was >really out there; have always loved him. Fascinating read: "Tesla: Man Out >of Time" by Margaret Cheney (Laurel/Dell, 1981). > >> One more thing about "phantom ringing" : >> >> I read some article years ago about Nicola Tesla and some kind of "sound >> weapon" which would transmit tones across great distances. Or maybe it >> was an energy source which gave off some extra noise. In any case, this >> technology was supposedly never realized and buried. I've always thought >> that this phantom ringing (which I also..) was from secret government >> tests of this Tesla technology. But I watch the X-files religiously >> so... >> >> ed chang > > > > > From ???@??? Sat Aug 23 12:24:25 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 23 09:16:54 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2Irt-0001Eu-00; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 09:16:53 -0700 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 12:11:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com Message-ID: <970823121153_417358796@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: the GT-5 LOOPS! Resent-Message-ID: <"L6PplD.A.y5.Nww_z"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/340 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 09:16:53 -0700 X-UIDL: 6109ce5a88bc96fc6aa0730e5d1e2f01 <> The GT-5 is the third-generation of COSM trickle-down from the VG-8. It's an all-metal floor unit with a bunch of footswitches and a built-in EV-5 pedal...seems to have all the best fx from the two prior products, the GP-100 and the GX-700 (where DO they get these COOL names?), and the most flexible, imaginative programming options of them all, but not the front-panel preamp knobs or multiple I/O features of the GP-100--there IS a programmable mono loop, tho, which is fabulous combined with the totally configurable fx order. The ring mods (there's an "intelligent" option that preserves a sense of pitch), acoustic guitar emulation (like their new Boss pedal), and mono HRM synths are truly rich, and all can access the distortion stomp boxes and the COSM amp/speaker emulations, slow attacker, wah, EQ, comp-lim, reverb, chorus, pan-trem. Besides the delay thing, there are two other "hold" functions, "Feebacker," a synthized mono sustain with octave-up fade-in--a pretty cheesy emulation but not without possiblities for the twisted mind--and synth note hold. It can, in short, sound almost as wild as, and a bit more real (in high-gain mode) than, a VG-8...costs about $800. There's a good long description of it in the Roland Users Group Mag with Joni Mitchell on the cover. dpc From ???@??? Sun Aug 24 20:30:31 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 24 12:57:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2img-00048e-00; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:57:14 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:53:10 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: [Fwd: UNIVOX. EC80A] Resent-Message-ID: <"d5vI7D.A.9sD.7EJA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/341 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:57:14 -0700 X-UIDL: 502826f4102e207bc89d1266964b0068 Can any of you tape loop fiends help this fellow? He's not on the list, so email him directly. thanks, kim >>From kflint Sat Aug 23 18:01:49 1997 >Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:14:49 -0700 >From: "Peter G. Miller" >Reply-To: pgmxpf@nbnet.nb.ca >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: kflint@annihilist.com >Subject: [Fwd: UNIVOX. EC80A] > >Message-ID: <33FFC0F9.6DA1@nbnet.nb.ca> >Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:04:57 -0700 >From: "Peter G. Miller" >Reply-To: pgmxpf@nbnet.nb.ca >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: kflint@annihilist.comm >Subject: UNIVOX. EC80A >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Kim: > >I was delighted to see a web page devoted to tape loop recording et al. >I have a problem which I hope your or your collegues can help me with. > >I have a mint UNIVOX tape echo machine which I discovered exactly where >I left it twenty years ago. The guitar player in the group heard me >talking about it and is obessed with using it onstage. The problem I >have is that the tape cartridges that I have (2) are both worn out >completely. One was supplied with the unit by Univox and is called a TC1 >tape cartridge and the other by a company called Appellon music of >Japan. I can't seem to locate any replacement carts anywhere. I am >considering rebuilding one of the carts myself but I've been told that >the tape used is similar to that used in avaition voice recorders. > >In any event if you or any of the folks you know can point me in the >right direction in this regard I would appreciate your correspondance. > >Best Regards, from New Brunswick Canada.. >Peter.. > ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Sun Aug 24 20:30:33 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 24 16:23:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2m02-0003j3-00; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 16:23:14 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708242317.TAA04945@shell.monmouth.com> X-Sender: andre@monmouth.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: andre Subject: re: roland PS-3; very cool Resent-Message-ID: <"jSJA4C.A.6UD.NHMA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/342 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 16:23:14 -0700 X-UIDL: 9c85b94f85da45894d2475c93eccdb15 hey hope you're all well... i just wanna recommend a cool used find that i've just copped - the boss PS-3 - it's a 2sec delay with 2 outputs for 2 diff. pitch shifted tones, also some weird almost backwards effects. but coolest of all - you can plug a standard expression pedal into it and get an instant 'whammy pedal' - with sudden pitch shifts or just using the pedal to zone in on an interval - very cool. can anyone point me to info re: the roland ps-3 digital pitch shifter delay??? i have looked at www.rolandus already. i didnt' get a little manual - can anyone xerox that for me - please private email -we'll work something out. thanx,a n d r e' ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++100% positive !! "Nothing will benefit health and increase the chances of survival on earth as the evolution to a vegetarian diet" - Albert Einstein "Let food be thy medicine, and medicine be thy food" "Physician, do no harm" - Hippocrates, who doctors somehow take an oath on.... check out my natural food store website>> http://www.monmouth.com/~secondnature From ???@??? Mon Aug 25 02:53:37 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 25 00:44:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2tos-0000sk-00; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 00:44:14 -0700 Message-Id: <14880.199708250739@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:39:32 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: Cool old FX Resent-Message-ID: <"Iwa4kD.A.Kp.hbTA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/343 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 00:44:14 -0700 X-UIDL: 5bb94af1fa5028a5d8d7799548aa185d Hi, Does anyone know if the schematics of old analog FX pedals (Mutron, Univox, et al) are available anywhere? I'm wantin' to build me an FX unit, and I'd like to get close to some "classic" sounds without actually shelling out for originals to analyze. I know many amp designs are virtually public domain. what about pedals? Thanks, Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Sat Mar 21 12:36:04 1998 >From kflint Sat Mar 21 00:30:06 1998 Received: from lists by ferret.slip.net with local (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0yGJfJ-0007YO-00; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 00:30:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19970825012221.007aca60@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: thefates@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 01:22:21 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Goddess Subject: Re: What I'd love from a next-generation looper In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980319093543.006f32e8@dharma.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sxy8tC.A.k2G.2n3E1"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4476 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 00:30:05 -0800 X-UIDL: 3cf57b5d06152a35b2b44c304946a67f The quandary with the volume pedal can be quite easily solved. You can either use your little finger on your volume knob on the guitar or whatever electric instrumnet you have, or with midi peddals, you can program patches in whatever it is that you use to do your signal processing at different volume levels which will be call up when you touch the appropriate peddal. As for a gradual change into and out of different volume levels, I'm not sure I know of anything to do this currently. As for the speed question, I don't know of a way to do this but that doesn't mean that it can't be done... smiles, good luck Corynne At 09:35 AM 3/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >I love my Echoplex and use it extensively as a compositional tool. I also >use it for live performance, for mostly improvised music. Of course, there >are some things that you just can't get from a looper that you get playing >with other living breathing musicians. It may be technically impossibile to >get them from a looping rig, but I'd be interested to hear from the >experts. Also, I'd be interested to hear how other musicians deal with >these limitations of currently available gear for looping: > >1) I hate volume pedals as a mechanism for controlling feedback and/or >output level. This is because I feel better (and therefore play better) if >I am free to move. Standing and using a volume pedal puts me off balance. >(True, this is not strictly a looping problem, but it is much more >important when your "backup band" is a loop as opposed to good, responsive >musicians who know how to use dynamics.) Are there any alternatives to >volume pedals, either currently available or that anyone can envision? > >Here's a thought (probably crazy, but at least I could control it and still >have good balance): what about a series of footswitches that would allow >you with one press to select a given volume? Maybe 7 or 8 switches all in a >row and with a single press you select a new volume. Also, it would be >great to have the option to either make the change immediate or to have it >take place over time (e.g., a Crescendo/Decrescendo mode parameter with >possible values immediate, short, long?). Heck, can I do something like >this now with a midi pedal? > >2) I'd love to be able to change the tempo of my loop without changing >pitch. This is something that is a staple of music from many cultures >(e.g., Indian classical music, much African music): get a groove going and >gradually speed it up, building the intensity. You can do it with live >musicians, but I don't know how to do it with a looped material. Any >thoughts on how to achieve this? Or is this a technical impossibility? > >I look forward to hearing your ideas. > >Thanks, >Len > > > From ???@??? Mon Aug 25 10:19:58 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 25 02:58:17 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2vua-0004MR-00; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:58:16 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:56:18 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: Cool old FX Resent-Message-ID: <"rA53J.A.k-D.SaVA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/344 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:58:16 -0700 X-UIDL: 3e22019d0f78ce18f4a72350598189ca >Hi, >Does anyone know if the schematics of old analog FX pedals (Mutron, Univox, >et al) are available anywhere? I'm wantin' to build me an FX unit, and I'd >like to get close to some "classic" sounds without actually shelling out >for originals to analyze. I know many amp designs are virtually public >domain. what about pedals? > >Thanks, >Michael you know theses sites? http://www.wcug.wwu.edu/~jamie/schems.html http://www.eden.com/~keen/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 25 10:19:59 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 25 05:10:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2xyn-0007jl-00; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:10:45 -0700 Posted-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:05:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970825120751.006feaec@pop.stud.ntnu.no> X-Sender: eriklj@pop.stud.ntnu.no X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:07:51 +0200 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Erik Ljones Subject: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Resent-Message-ID: <"Z4EBtC.A.n9G.EVXA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/345 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:10:45 -0700 X-UIDL: 20a73855710e929530973b5794c15976 At 09:36 12.08.97 -0400, David Kirkdorrfer wrote: >I don't need the standards: chorus, flange, delay, pitch-shift. I'm >looking for DRASTIC effects rendering a guitar very UN-guitar-like. I >have a Vortex already -- now I quest for something more wild. This guy just made me aware of a new effect called a pixellator from DOD. For some reason I don't like this company, but the effect was described as creating "wild sonic landscapes this side of delirum" or something along the lines of that, so I might check it out anyway. I think it is packaged with a bunch of the standard effects though....I really don't need another 50 types of digital distortion, if you know what i mean? Does anyone else have any more information on this? Erik Ljones (Norway) From ???@??? Mon Aug 25 10:20:00 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 25 05:15:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2y37-0000Bz-00; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:15:13 -0700 Message-Id: <19359.199708251211@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:11:57 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! Resent-Message-ID: <"VPXmwB.A.5C.8aXA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/346 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:15:13 -0700 X-UIDL: f128d332f3526174df3be019f556f505 Erik: >This guy just made me aware of a new effect called a pixellator from DOD. >For some reason I don't like this company, but the effect was described as >creating "wild sonic landscapes this side of delirum" or something along the >lines of that, so I might check it out anyway. I think it is packaged with a >bunch of the standard effects though....I really don't need another 50 types >of digital distortion, if you know what i mean? It's a digital UNDERsampler, created jointly with the guitarist from Trnt Reznor's band (can't remember the name). Shouldn't be many other FX with it - probably just a digital distortion - ie using the digising process to distort. Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 25 10:20:01 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 25 06:06:39 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x2yqs-0001nE-00; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:06:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:02:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam Levin To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please! In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970825120751.006feaec@pop.stud.ntnu.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"IVFHPC.A.teB.WKYA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/347 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:06:38 -0700 X-UIDL: ab6f19c270d0755693390a9f570933ac On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Erik Ljones wrote: > > This guy just made me aware of a new effect called a pixellator from DOD. > For some reason I don't like this company, but the effect was described as > creating "wild sonic landscapes this side of delirum" or something along the > lines of that, so I might check it out anyway. I think it is packaged with a > bunch of the standard effects though....I really don't need another 50 types > of digital distortion, if you know what i mean? Does anyone else have any > more information on this? I believe it's one of the effects included on the G10 rack unit which I've seen running for $240-$275. In addition to the pixellator and ring modulator it includes the usual bag of tricks. Check out DOD's web site at http://www.dod.com/ for specifics. This is the succesor to the G7 which got some pretty lousy reviews on Harmony Central. So far no reviews of the G10 have been posted yet. -Adam --- "...if one strives at hearing for the sake of constant virtue, out of seeking liberation from cyclic existence, gradually one becomes a Hearer." - Chandrakirti From ???@??? Mon Aug 25 22:28:11 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 25 18:27:21 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x38WE-00044A-00; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:25:58 -0700 X-Sender: matthias@bonfim.bahianet.com.br (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:07:06 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) Subject: Re: new instruments Resent-Message-ID: <"h-v-XB.A.EaC.4_gA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/348 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:25:58 -0700 X-UIDL: b25b294f585d203a7617563b0e6659d4 >Matthias, sounds really neat. But where in the hell did you buy such a >nifty clay pot (just any pot wouldn't do). Here in Brazil you can get them at any market place, because thats how people keep water cool. They look nice, with a painted patern. The size is not very critical, the bigger the bassyer. The top whole should be small enough to be able to close it with the palm. The whole in the side you have to drill yourself unless you find a pot especially made for percussion, which is much more expensive and not necessarily better (I would not want one). Bira would certainly like to sell a number of them to US. Maybe you know of some stores that would like to carry them? There must be a lot of "alternative" clay manufacturing in US, maybe you find one that is actually happy to create something that interesting... Right, Sarajane? Just do it Matthias From ???@??? Mon Aug 25 22:28:10 1997 >From kflint Mon Aug 25 17:40:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x39Ce-0006iN-00; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:09:48 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Can somebody check some sounds? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8anxW.A.k0E.CkhA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/349 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:09:48 -0700 X-UIDL: afe3fbbdfada4b86ac7eb08fd7682bc6 Hello all -- I'm looking for a few people to test some sound files I'm attempting to upload onto my web site. What I need are people who can download files in AU format. The files are at http://shoko.calarts.edu/~altruist/sounds.html Each file contains much loopage, and is in the 1000K neighborhood. If there are any problems or anomalies, please mail me and let me know. Thanks very much for your help. Best, --Andre From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:34 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 19:24:54 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3uGR-00067P-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:24:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 01:17:17 -0500 From: John Pollock Subject: Re: Can somebody check some sounds? To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: johnpollock@delphi.com Message-id: <340274ED.4989@delphi.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: <"hy2QUD.A.jUF.PBOB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/362 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:24:51 -0700 X-UIDL: 0ea462040800e88cc9f86eb614314db4 The Man Himself wrote: > > Hello all -- > > I'm looking for a few people to test some sound files I'm attempting to > upload onto my web site. What I need are people who can download files > in AU format. > > The files are at http://shoko.calarts.edu/~altruist/sounds.html > > Each file contains much loopage, and is in the 1000K neighborhood. > > If there are any problems or anomalies, please mail me and let me know. > Thanks very much for your help. Andre, #1 worked fine for me with MSIE 3.01/W95, and I like it, too. Thanks for sharing. :-) This is a gentle nudge for the rest of you with Web sites-- please put some of your music on them? I've visited just about every site listed in the World Wide Directory of Loop Artists, and downloaded at least some music from every site that offers it. I can't promise I'll like it, but I do promise to listen... John mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) From ???@??? Tue Aug 26 09:34:44 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 26 04:10:43 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3JWE-0000Nv-00; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:10:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCB220.E24B1400@porto.koeln-digital.de> From: Michael Peters To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: Andre's AU clips Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:06:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0_LNsB.A.7J.tjrA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/350 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:10:42 -0700 X-UIDL: 3d7e095265e8a05893a0ed1ed8a759b8 Andre (Man himself) wrote, >I'm looking for a few people to test some sound files I'm attempting to >upload onto my web site. What I need are people who can download files >in AU format. >The files are at http://shoko.calarts.edu/~altruist/sounds.html No problems downloading and playing the files. Wonderful!! Where can I buy your CD Andre? Michael Peters mpeters@compuserve.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 26 09:34:46 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 26 08:15:59 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3NLa-0003Zv-00; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:15:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3402F21B.7E98@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:11:23 -0500 From: Mike Artemenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jamman Upgrade Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NsNZq.A.bFD.qJvA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/352 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:15:58 -0700 X-UIDL: 30de13aab2dc4d348c6dbf33a6dc02d3 Has anybody heard the latest on the Jamman EPROM upgrade? Is it still happening? Mike From ???@??? Tue Aug 26 09:34:45 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 26 07:36:52 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3Mji-0001F6-00; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:36:50 -0700 Message-Id: <9708261436.AA18952@beryllium.lexicon.com> Priority: urgent Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:24:00 -0400 From: "Hogan, Greg" Subject: RE: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 To: Loopers-Delight X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Resent-Message-ID: <"8sSxDC.A.S4.NkuA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/351 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:36:50 -0700 X-UIDL: a1a300599d340fd275ee022dc47876f8 I can provide the diagnostic information for the JAMMAN and VORTEX. Where shall I send it? Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email:ghogan@lexicon.com ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 10:12 AM To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: JamMan memory problems, Part 2 ---------------------------------------------------- At 9:50 AM -0400 8/20/97, Hogan, Greg wrote: >Dear Kim, > >You are welcome to place this diagnostic anywhere you'd like. Well, that's a dangerous request...... presumably the jamman has a more complete diagnostics test. Could we get the whole thing for the web site? thanks, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Tue Aug 26 10:19:23 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 26 09:39:41 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3OeY-0001rQ-00; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:39:38 -0700 X-Sender: LEO@MAIL.DINONET.IT X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Leonardo Cavallo Subject: Art nightbass question Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:41:03 +0200 Message-ID: <19970826164100953.AAB217@Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"dgr8pC.A.NQB.4WwA0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/353 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:39:38 -0700 X-UIDL: db5d0f3fdaa9d97595592ccfdb6914ca Hi all Someone owns a SGX Nightbass effects processor? I'd like to know if my Studio Edition model behaviour is normal: when the input signal on the 3 leds indicator clips the sound fades away for a few seconds.... Is it normal for the unit? If so, how do you manage absence of sound while gigging?? thanks leo From ???@??? Tue Aug 26 23:54:32 1997 >From kflint Tue Aug 26 20:37:42 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3YvN-0000AN-00; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:37:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCB2ED.8D1B4860@JLACK> From: jlack@auran.com (Jamie Lack) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: My GT-5 and other things Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:31:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fPm8tB.A.iLH.NA6A0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/354 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:37:41 -0700 X-UIDL: dfa81d9e1214ab86e2b002a44cb751ca I was pleased to hear of the looping ability of the GT-5 on this digest. When I bought the thing many months back I was looking for something to provide a really broad sonic canvas for my guitar, to compose soundtracks for my animations. It has proved to be great for this, especially if you use other instruments in conjunction. I am a little dissapointed with the short delay time though. Could any other GT-5 owners recommend a fairly low cost addition to extend the looping capabilities. BTW I am fairly new to this stuff. Something I have been wondering. Do any readers appreciate the concept of looping images with sounds? The same way (kind of) that we loop sounds, we loop images. I plan to explore this as soon as I come to grips with the GT-5 and my 4 track. From ???@??? Wed Aug 27 09:52:23 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 09:51:19 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3lJO-0001AH-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:51:18 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BCB2ED.8D1B4860@JLACK> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:37:41 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: looping images Resent-Message-ID: <"lOn8iB.A.fs.5nFB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/356 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:51:18 -0700 X-UIDL: 5f8c9dfa4370fe92fcfb74119f96f405 Jamie Lack said: >Something I have been wondering. >Do any readers appreciate the concept of looping images with sounds? >The same way (kind of) that we loop sounds, we loop images. >I plan to explore this as soon as I come to grips with the GT-5 and my 4 >track. I think that's a very interesting direction. I don't do anything like it myself, but being a media-saturated member of the mtv generation, putting image and music together seems like a perfectly natural thing to do. Extending looping concepts to video and animation could have some very interesting results, I'd love to hear what you're thinking along those lines. medialooping, I guess we might call it. Some day, there may even be devices to do just that.....to the machine, audio and video are just data. looping or manipulating one or the other is the same, just a question of processing power. Well within the reach of current technology actually. the interface and function set are more the question... I'm really interested in the idea of performance video. It seems possible, but I never see anyone really doing it. I saw a band a few years ago with a video artist as a band member. The music was a fascinating sort of punkish art/prog rock with this amazing video background. All performed right along with the music. It was fascinating. Naturally it was too good to be true, so they broke up. I really thought I'd see a lot more of that sort of mix since, but I've never seen anything like it again. video alongside the music, sure, but never created as an actual part of the performance. Anybody doing that? kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:27 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 10:26:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3lrP-0003qP-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:26:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199708271720.KAA19664@scv1.apple.com> Subject: Re: looping images Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 12:23:31 -0000 x-sender: hartne.t@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"9JKvlC.A.DGD.-HGB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/357 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:26:27 -0700 X-UIDL: b6588ac6b541472964df6030240aec82 >I'm really interested in the idea of performance video. It seems possible, >but I never see anyone really doing it. I saw a band a few years ago with a >video artist as a band member. The music was a fascinating sort of punkish >art/prog rock with this amazing video background. All performed right along >with the music. It was fascinating. Naturally it was too good to be true, >so they broke up. I really thought I'd see a lot more of that sort of mix >since, but I've never seen anything like it again. video alongside the >music, sure, but never created as an actual part of the performance. >Anybody doing that? There's a guy in town (Austin, noted home of retarded blues guitarists) who has put together a neat setup using super-8 projectors and slide machines. Usually there will be two slide projectors and three film projectors, set up on a platform in the middle of the club. He's got a large library of film loops that he's scavanged from garage sales over the years that he'll feed in and superimpose as the mood strikes him, while more experimental bands play. The coolest effect I saw was when Ed Hall (a local art-punk trio) came out on stage, wearing only shorts, painted in day-glo body paint. There were black lights next to their monitors, so they looked really unearthly. Luke (the film guy) had found some footage of an oilwell fire, and had projected this three times, in slow motion, aimed so that each of the band members appeared to be on fire. Breathtaking, and on the cheap. He's worked with various local bands that strike his fancy (The Flying Saucers, Orange Mothers, Ed Hall, Poi Dog Pondering, Sixteen Deluxe, and so on). I think the limiting factor is the size of the club--unless it holds at least 500 people, there's not really enough room to set everything up without cutting into the crowd space. A few years ago I saw an LA Band, Chalk Circle, and they were using a portable projection TV system hooked up to a VCR. They also had a fog machine, and the projector would sometimes be aimed out over the audience. When the fog achieved sufficient density, the projection beam would become visible, in the form of long. rapidly moving beams of light. They didn't make any attempt to synchronize the video with what they played, just loaded up a VHS tape with interesting images and let it fly. Travis From ???@??? Wed Aug 27 09:46:25 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 08:57:38 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3kTQ-0004o0-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:57:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:51:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Rik Elswit Message-Id: <199708271551.IAA14569@well.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: My GT-5 and other things Resent-Message-ID: <"-qclSC.A.rCE.G0EB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/355 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:57:36 -0700 X-UIDL: efdef5783f93832a30adbdeab9af60c9 "Do any readers appreciate the concept of looping images with sounds? The same way (kind of) that we loop sounds, we loop images. I plan to explore this as soon as I come to grips with the GT-5 and my 4 track." Steinberg (the Cubase people) has a program called X-Pose, which lets you sequence stills and video clips via MIDI. It's PowerMac native, and uses Quicktime. I'm not sure if there's a Windows version. Steinberg is at (818) 993-4091. From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:30 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 14:05:33 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3pHP-00053k-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:05:31 -0700 From: John Neilson Message-Id: <199708272059.QAA06302@echonyc.com> Subject: Re: looping images To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:59:48 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Kim Flint" at Aug 27, 97 00:37:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2_UFLD.A.ORE.HVJB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/358 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:05:31 -0700 X-UIDL: 62ddbf0676c7be58a5f0516df7ce3f87 > > Jamie Lack said: > >Something I have been wondering. > >Do any readers appreciate the concept of looping images with sounds? > >The same way (kind of) that we loop sounds, we loop images. > >I plan to explore this as soon as I come to grips with the GT-5 and my 4 > >track. > I think Emergency Broadcast Network actually uses a video sampler in their performances, to trigger short clips or loops either manually or in response to musical cues. At one point there was a little demo version of this kind of sampler floating around the net. ----------------------- Tear Along Dotted Line ----------------------- John Neilson www.mixup.com jneil@mixup.com "a site for sore ears" From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:30 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 14:25:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3pah-0006ge-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:25:27 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970827212722.008a577c@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:27:22 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: looping images Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"TJA66.A.EsF.OnJB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/359 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:25:27 -0700 X-UIDL: f2bd958ec76c76edccfdc2e8fe07cb08 At 04:59 PM 8/27/97 -0400, John Neilson wrote: >> >> Jamie Lack said: >> >Something I have been wondering. >> >Do any readers appreciate the concept of looping images with sounds? >> >The same way (kind of) that we loop sounds, we loop images. >> >I plan to explore this as soon as I come to grips with the GT-5 and my 4 >> >track. >> >I think Emergency Broadcast Network actually uses a video sampler in >their performances, to trigger short clips or loops either manually or >in response to musical cues. > >At one point there was a little demo version of this kind of sampler >floating around the net. Yeah, I was going to mention them, but I missed their show when they were in town so I don't know for sure how it comes off in the performance. A friend of mine had the impression that they had things pretty rigidly sequenced to their music. That's probably fine for their style, but I wonder about the possiblities of using broadcasting equipment like they do for a more improvised approach. Actually, EBN might be doing more of this by now, I haven't checked up on them in a while. It seemed like they were very interested in the idea when I read an interview a couple years ago. kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:31 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 18:05:01 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3t19-0000ER-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:04:59 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970827205922.0069a580@infinitesound.com> X-Sender: verner@infinitesound.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:59:22 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: verner@infinitesound.com Subject: Drifting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jePR.A.1CH.70MB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/361 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:04:59 -0700 X-UIDL: 621693960e63c07d99f3a0bd19be36c8 Kim has mentioned that the Plex upgrade improves a stereo configuration - keeps the 2 Plexs locked together better. However, you for "ambient" folks that have 2 Plexs (and haven't upgraded), try this - record a nice thick abstract loop and let it do its thing for 1/2 an hour or so. The drifting is incredibly beautiful! It actually makes the loop come alive, breathe and evolve all by itself. Check it out. I'm going to miss this when I get the upgrade. J. Arif Verner Infinite Sound Studio Ithaca, New York http://www.infinitesound.com "After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." -Aldous Huxley From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:35 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 19:48:09 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3ucw-0000CF-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:48:06 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970828025217.00878bd4@pop.chromatic.com> X-Sender: kflint@pop.chromatic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:52:17 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Drifting Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"5QlxlC.A.fJH.xXOB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/363 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:48:06 -0700 X-UIDL: a34544051d94091e87e555b0a31ef272 One particular slightly aged stadium rock star wanted to know if we could set up a pedal to control the amount that stereo unsynced loops went out of phase! Do you see why this is so hard? Anyway, you can probably retain your clock drifting experiences on the upgrade by leaving the brothersync cable out and setting the sync to "off" like you have it now. That way, the stereo units will start and stop the loop record at the same time by the midi command, but will have no other points of reference to each other. So they will naturally drift apart. ...and no I'm not going to make a pedal to control it. But for those interested in loop abuse, try this: Play a loop from a sequencer with midi clock out. (percussion is particularly fun, .) Run this loop into the echoplex, and record a loop of it, synced to the midi clock. You now have the original loop and the echoplex loop running next to each other, which is probably not something you would normally do. Because the timing resolutions of the sequencer, the plex, and midi clock are not infinitely accurate, the phase relationship between the audio waveforms of the two will be slightly different each time through the loop. So the sound changes each time! Vary the mix between the two to change the amount of the effect. We've spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out ways to improve upon this situation and make it go away, but at the same time I think it sounds pretty cool. Yet another way to breath new life into that old drum machine..... kim At 08:59 PM 8/27/97 -0400, verner@infinitesound.com wrote: >Kim has mentioned that the Plex upgrade improves a stereo configuration - >keeps the 2 Plexs locked together better. > >However, you for "ambient" folks that have 2 Plexs (and haven't upgraded), >try this - record a nice thick abstract loop and let it do its thing for >1/2 an hour or so. > >The drifting is incredibly beautiful! It actually makes the loop come >alive, breathe and evolve all by itself. Check it out. > >I'm going to miss this when I get the upgrade. > >J. Arif Verner > >Infinite Sound Studio >Ithaca, New York >http://www.infinitesound.com > >"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is >music." > -Aldous Huxley > > > ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:36 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 19:58:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3unF-000124-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:58:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:53:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Louis Collier Hyams X-Sender: hyamsl@magritte.its.rpi.edu To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: greets Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8yGvGC.A.dl.8gOB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/364 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:58:45 -0700 X-UIDL: 2c7b9ad27d5630f91606ffddf0492e4f hi loopers, after being off of the list for quite sometime i suddenly received a digest! what a mystery-ry-ry-ry so, since you all rang maybe i can ask some advice? 1) i'm looking for a vox AC head to go with my 61 2x10 cabinet. actually, i wouldn't mind any sweet vox's. sweet is the key word cuz there are some that speak and some that flub. any leads? 2) i've tried out a copla line6 axsys 212 amps (dallas, austin, new york) and have decided they all sound like a multieffects with speakers. but, on the opposite side, it's a 50 pound box that can do a festival gig and count as a single piece of luggage on the plane. anyone have any comments? suggestions? any used ones out there? they are cheap enough, but resale will be poor more than likely. you folk will have to email me privately as I don't know what the status of my membership on the loop is and how i got this digest sincerely, collier hyams hyamsl@rpi.edu From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:31 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 17:58:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3sv6-0007Wf-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:58:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3405073A.6814@nbnet.nb.ca> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:06:02 -0700 From: "Peter G. Miller" Reply-To: pgmxpf@nbnet.nb.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: univox ec 80 a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k-EfH.A.kmG.qvMB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/360 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:58:44 -0700 X-UIDL: 2cb8660c81a430dca8c9bcbeff6702ac Kim I think I have my tape cartridge problem solved. I've had replies to this query from all over ! Turns out a company in Chatanooga TN, has some in stock. Also I found another unit by accident today. it is a univox SM350. ( a little newer than the other unit probably 1968 of so.) In any event thanks for you interest. Peter From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:39 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 21:38:55 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3wM7-0007cc-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:38:51 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:37:08 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: looping images Cc: "Looper's Delight" Resent-Message-ID: <"vqBpD.A.FoG.P-PB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/365 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:38:51 -0700 X-UIDL: 486f958172f3344917ced6fc0c6d2268 At 4:23 AM 8/27/97, T.W. Hartnett wrote: >>I'm really interested in the idea of performance video. It seems possible, >>but I never see anyone really doing it. I saw a band a few years ago with a >>video artist as a band member. The music was a fascinating sort of punkish >>art/prog rock with this amazing video background. All performed right along >>with the music. It was fascinating. Naturally it was too good to be true, >>so they broke up. I really thought I'd see a lot more of that sort of mix >>since, but I've never seen anything like it again. video alongside the >>music, sure, but never created as an actual part of the performance. >>Anybody doing that? > >There's a guy in town (Austin, noted home of retarded blues guitarists) >who has put together a neat setup using super-8 projectors and slide >machines. Usually there will be two slide projectors and three film >projectors, set up on a platform in the middle of the club. He's got a >large library of film loops that he's scavanged from garage sales over >the years that he'll feed in and superimpose as the mood strikes him, >while more experimental bands play. The coolest effect I saw was when Ed >Hall (a local art-punk trio) came out on stage, wearing only shorts, >painted in day-glo body paint. There were black lights next to their >monitors, so they looked really unearthly. Luke (the film guy) had found >some footage of an oilwell fire, and had projected this three times, in >slow motion, aimed so that each of the band members appeared to be on >fire. Breathtaking, and on the cheap. > There's a guy in Olympia, Washington that does this also. We played a show there about a year and a half ago, and this guy was doing projection stuff with one of the other bands on the bill, and asked us if we minded if he did it for us as well. We said yeah, and fortunately we had brought a video camera, because what he did was extremely cool. He had 6 projectors shining on screens set up in an arc behind us. The films were educational films he bought at a school auction, 50's to 70's vintage. He'd run them forward and backwards, sometimes upside down. One bit he used a lot was a home-ec film about preparing meat, he'd play this loop of a raw meat getting chopped up over and over. Great stuff, we hope to play with him again sometime. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:38 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 21:38:46 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3wLx-0007bR-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:38:41 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:37:13 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Drifting Resent-Message-ID: <"gi0AjB.A.1oG.U-PB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/366 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:38:41 -0700 X-UIDL: 9ca6be40e4ef72ace1c64e8b4b0ec0cb At 7:52 PM 8/27/97, Kim Flint wrote: >One particular slightly aged stadium rock star wanted to know if we could >set up a pedal to control the amount that stereo unsynced loops went out of >phase! Do you see why this is so hard? > Yeah, Cool, if the 'plex did this I'd buy 2! :-) I do something similar with the JamMan and the Roland Groovebox. I midi-sync the JamMan to the Groovebox, set up some kind of pattern on the 'box, loop it into the JamMan, then unplug the midi cable from the JamMan so it loops freely. I had a pattern going for 2 days once, was really cool every time I checked in with it. It only went away when the power went out. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 02:08:38 1997 >From kflint Wed Aug 27 21:38:45 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x3wLw-0007bJ-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:38:40 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:37:17 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: looping images Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Resent-Message-ID: <"wqY2a.A.1pG.Z-PB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/367 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:38:40 -0700 X-UIDL: 9656e25895a4dad7b4322e3e3b15ab50 At 4:59 PM 8/27/97, John Neilson wrote: >> >> Jamie Lack said: >> >Something I have been wondering. >> >Do any readers appreciate the concept of looping images with sounds? >> >The same way (kind of) that we loop sounds, we loop images. >> >I plan to explore this as soon as I come to grips with the GT-5 and my 4 >> >track. >> >I think Emergency Broadcast Network actually uses a video sampler in >their performances, to trigger short clips or loops either manually or >in response to musical cues. > >At one point there was a little demo version of this kind of sampler >floating around the net. I think you could do this with the new version of MAX also, it gives you some pretty comprehensive quicktime controls. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 14:03:49 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 10:56:45 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x47aP-0002Dv-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:38:21 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCB3AF.1036B240@mark.asisoftware.com> From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: 'Loopers Delight' Subject: Wrong Ways Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:36:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sYzKeB.A.PzB.7haB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/368 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:38:21 -0700 X-UIDL: 93219c7d370c3296c11c8d8d86a6d4a5 Has anyone discovered any wrong ways to use a JamMan or Vortex? Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 10:28:34 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 10:10:41 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x485f-0004Xq-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:10:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199708281650.JAA16511@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: looping images Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:42:40 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OLCn4D.A.plC.wuaB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/369 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:10:39 -0700 X-UIDL: c625fe28350fca828a811e510ce773a3 All this talk of looping images and Opcode Max has got me thinking. Any Max users out there? I'd be interested in hearing how you use this program. Their web page doesn't really have any examples of specific uses. Specifically, I'm wondering if anyone has incorporated Max into their live performances. It really seems as if the possibilities are endless for combining different media sources into one "coherent" performance event. Anyone tried this? Is there a dedicated mailing list for Max users out there? Thanks! Matt From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 10:28:35 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 10:10:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x485J-0004WL-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:10:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199708281655.JAA16698@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: "Loop" Subject: Max email list Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:48:31 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sQG8Q.A.9lC.zuaB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/370 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:10:17 -0700 X-UIDL: 24ad32419c9e542e63501df0444da740 Don't you hate it when you answer your own question? >From Opcode's web page: MAX users can join the MAX ListServe. Send email to: listserv@vm1.mcgill.ca with 'SUBSCRIBE MAX' in the body of the message. Once you have subscribed, MAX questions can be emailed to: max@vm1.mcgill.ca ----------------------------- Matthew Finley McCabe Sales/Marketing Support SunGard Bi-Tech Systems Inc. 890 Fortress Street Chico, CA 95973 916.899.4348 http://www.bi-tech.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 14:03:46 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 10:44:13 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x48c7-00028P-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:44:11 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop2.slip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:38:02 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: E.W. Bridge recorder thingy Resent-Message-ID: <"nnjwTC.A.PWB.aebB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/371 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:44:11 -0700 X-UIDL: aee892253a34da8141b608157f3fb94d Status: O X-Status: This fellow sent this product description to me. He thought it was interesting, maybe you will too: >>From kflint Thu Aug 28 07:48:45 1997 >From: "Lambert, Georges" >To: "'kflint@annihilist.com'" >Subject: Check this out... >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:46:23 -0400 >X-Priority: 3 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Kim, >This new gizmo does loops with its repeat function, cheap and >interesting. >It might be interesting to post that in the list, but I don't know how. >Long time, low price, that is interesting, I need only looping for >guitar practice, >Record chords and solo over the change, that might be the one I was >looking for, better than tape. >It comes from >http://www.harmony-central.com/Newp/1997/Pocket-Memo.html > >Hope this is useful for the list people, did anyone tried it, according >to your knowledge? > >Georges Lambert >lambert.georges@fin.gc.ca > >_______________________________________ >New Pocket-Sized Digital Audio Recorder >E.W. Bridge >New Pocket-sized Digital Recording and Replay Tool for Musicians > >Redwood City, CA July 23, 1997 Today E.W. Bridge LLC introduced the >world's first truly pocket-sized digital recorder and player for >musicians. Being only 3/8 inch thick, and 4 inches long and 2 1/4 inches >wide, Musician's Pocket Memo goes anywhere comfortably on one's person. >It is designed for common needs voiced by most musicians. While >on-the-go they can capture melodies, lyrics, and riffs, including live >music, for easy reference and improvement later. They also can replay >their recordings wherever they happen to be. > >Musician's Pocket Memo's digital sound quality is the first in the world >to be sufficiently clear for musicians while maintaining pocket size and >widespread affordability. It features an advanced mono sound synthesis >chipset, high-sensitivity small microphone, and high output small >speaker. Its unique sound clarity results from these high quality >components together with finely tuned integration circuitry. The result >is noticeably better sound than most portable cassette recorders. > >Operation is through a fully labeled and intuitive 7-button membrane >keypad. Since recording is digital on non-volatile flash memory, each >recording is stored separately and easily found. Each can be >individually deleted which consolidates remaining recording capacity. >Recordings do not risk malfunction or mechanical damage which can occur >with tape cassettes. Stereo input and output 3.5 mm jacks allow >connection to other essentials. Musician's Pocket Memo connects to >headphones , external mikes and speakers, studio equipment, PCs, and >directly or through mixers to electronic instruments. For example, >electric guitars need only a simple $2 mechanical jack adapter. >Electronic keyboards and other high power equipment can connect through >a mixer. > >Says Clay Bullwinkel, President of E.W. Bridge, "We have made and sold >tens of thousands of general-purpose high-capacity digital sound >recorders worldwide since 1995. Customers have always told us that we >are in a class by ourselves regarding sound quality for this kind of >pocket-sized digital device. Just last year we began to hear repeatedly >from musicians who were using them. The musicians not only underscored >the sound quality again, they told us we were crazy not to be marketing >it to the music community. They helped us figure out that adding input >and output jacks, plus some fine-tuning of the sound circuitry, would >help. And there you have it. For musicians we maintain our same >responsive and supportive approach as always. Plus a very active >research and development program with over 30 engineers." > >E.W. Bridge LLC will begin by mid-August to make Musician's Pocket Memo >available through music retailers and catalogs across the U.S. You can >place your orders by calling 888-248-3628 (toll free), (415) 361-4916, >fax to (415) 261-2172, www.ewbridge.com, or via email to >sales@ewbridge.com. > > > >Features and Prices > >Physical characteristics > > > >*True pocket size: 3/8 " x 2 1/4" x 4" / (9.5 x 56 x 101 mm) - rests >comfortably in pockets, purses, etc. *Weight: 2.4 ounces (68g) >*Intuitive and quickly referenceable 7-button plastic membrane keypad >*Integrated advanced sound synthesis chipset, high-sensitivity >microphone, high output speaker *2 or 4 MB (megabytes) flash memory - >recordings secure when power low or is absent > > > >Functional characteristics > > > >*Distinctly crisper and stronger mono sound - (approx. 8kHz - better >than most cassette recorders) *9.5 to 19.1 minutes in music mode (short >play), 25 to 50 minutes in speech mode (long play) *Quick scanning from >recording to recording or within recordings to find key sound *Deletion >of individual (or all) recordings, consolidates all remaining ones >*Volume control for privacy and power savings *Stereo input and output >jacks - 1/8" (3.5 mm) *Use with PC requires PC sound card and speakers. >Transfer done via analog playback into sound card jack *Both LED and >sounds confirm successful completion of functions and battery status >*Rugged, impact-resistant metal casing and surface mount construction >*Keypad security prevents unauthorized replay > > > >Includes > >*Attractive four-color glossy gift box: 5 1/4" x 6" x 1", 6 ounces (127 >x 165 x 25 mm, 170 g) *Handsome smooth leather case, quick reference >decal, and user's guide *4 replaceable batteries (Duracell PX625A or >Varta V625U available as replacements) *3.5 mm connector cables not >included *30-day satisfaction guarantee - within 30 days return fully >intact and with minimal use for full refund *Standard limited warranty > >Standard ModelsSuggested Retail List PricesSPE25A-2J-EW (9.5minutes >short play, 25 minutes long play, 2 MB -megabytes- flash >memory)$119.95SPE50A-2J-EW (19.1 min., 50 min., 4 MB)$239.95 > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Product announcement posted by Harmony Central¨ > ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 14:03:50 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 11:27:05 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x49HZ-00068e-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:27:01 -0700 From: Brian.Thomson@prudential.co.uk To: " - (052)Loopers-Delight(a)annihilist.com" Subject: More Gear Talk: Korg DL8000R Message-Id: <0014400000015586000002L062*@MHS> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:17:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"UMOhVC.A.tRF.QHcB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/372 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:27:01 -0700 X-UIDL: ee7e74d7a4ba84223ef6f311cd3b8526 Came across this one in my travels - haven't seen any mention of it on this list. Full details are at http://www.korg.com/dl8000r.htm but here are some highlights: 1U rack true stereo looper - up to 5 sec per channel (not enough!) 4 taps per channel - taps can be panned, effected, LFOed, etc. set of standard effects - eq, chorus, flange etc. huge display - electroluminescent sync to internal clock, tap button, MIDI clock, external trigger (e.g. drum, pad, footswitch) DSP functions - for effect and to avoid glitches control pedal input, full MIDI spec. "warp" control - bend the loop (must be inspired by what Fripp does with the Eventide H3000 parameter knob) 128 presets Looks quite impressive - I'll start looking here in the UK. Only drawback seems to be delay time - 5 secs per channel isn't cricket! Brian Thomson, London UK Real Address: bnt@ibm.net From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 14:03:50 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 11:56:15 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x49jq-000163-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:56:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3405C828.7EFD@voicenet.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:49:12 -0400 From: Charles Cohen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping images Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IugSXC.A.Uo.fjcB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/373 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:56:14 -0700 X-UIDL: 5c08fcc520fd8eaa1ebd09954e8d85bb >Anybody doing that? http://www.el.net/~bbain/index.html -- **** What's Charles up to? **** http://www.voicenet.com/~ccohen From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 14:03:51 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 11:59:34 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x49n2-0001Sa-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:59:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199708281907.MAA20060@gw1.bi-tech.com> From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Wrong Ways Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:59:46 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-wMRuD.A.o0.WlcB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/374 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:59:32 -0700 X-UIDL: 0e5637910c4d32b9a5af058f7ad169e6 > From: Mark Kata > Has anyone discovered any wrong ways to use a JamMan or Vortex? Well....they aren't heavy enough to be used as doorstops!! A couple of times when using the cheapo footswitches I've gotten an electronic tone out of the JamMan....like a sine wave....and at different pitches. This hasn't happened for quite sometime so I can't remember exactly what I was doing. Matt From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 14:03:54 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 13:07:08 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4AqP-0007e8-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:07:05 -0700 From: John Neilson Message-Id: <199708281959.PAA03376@echonyc.com> Subject: Re: looping images To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:59:14 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199708281650.JAA16511@gw1.bi-tech.com> from "Matt McCabe" at Aug 28, 97 09:42:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OvHHcC.A.-kG.bidB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/375 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:07:05 -0700 X-UIDL: 645e4b5d1937038f01302fa63cfacf28 > > All this talk of looping images and Opcode Max has got me thinking. Any > Max users out there? I'd be interested in hearing how you use this > program. Their web page doesn't really have any examples of specific uses. > Specifically, I'm wondering if anyone has incorporated Max into their live > performances. It really seems as if the possibilities are endless for > combining different media sources into one "coherent" performance event. > Anyone tried this? > > Is there a dedicated mailing list for Max users out there? > There's a Max list that you can get to from www.opcode.com (though I'm pretty sure the list predates Opcode's site and is not run by them. ----------------------- Tear Along Dotted Line ----------------------- John Neilson www.mixup.com jneil@mixup.com "a site for sore ears" From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 19:32:00 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 14:59:59 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4Cba-0001T5-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:59:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199708282135.OAA00903@usr04.primenet.com> Reply-To: From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: looping images Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:33:23 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zFTyrB.A.5x.1NfB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/376 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:59:54 -0700 X-UIDL: 338831996f39f316bb7df9477c01e9b1 I had to put my two senses in while this was still a fresh topic, since I didn't entirely know what people meant by 'looping video'... This could have been live-improv-60s-style-light-show with state-of-the-art updates, for all I knew. Here's one for you all, and I don't know if it's currently an option, but it's what I used to do in the days when we were all 66MHz or less. Attached to the PC VGA out, a Y-connect leading to the monitor, and a video converter, then to the input of a VCR or TV; running on the PC could be a variety of programs that generate or animate existing graphics. Our favorite was FRACTINT, which generates fractals AND color-cycles them in a manner you can define. It's a great program, but when PCs got faster, the cycling became intolerable to look at, for its speed. Images all the way from simple Mandelbrot to Plasma fractals are possible with this package; but the speed algorithm makes it all wrong to run on anything faster than 66MHz. Another package, more up-to-date, is called Kaleidoscope 95, by Syntrillium (http://www.syntrillium.com). This little gem is a screen saver, but is Audio Sensitive, so it generates its Spirograph-like patterns (all configurable, by the way) in response to specific frequencies or frequency changes. Alas, my PC2TV converter died last year. Stephen Goodman * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios EarthLight Productions * Get the Loop Of The Week Free! From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 19:32:01 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 15:38:40 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4DD5-0004UN-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:38:39 -0700 From: Paolo Valladolid Message-Id: <199708282234.PAA20331@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Subject: The Generation Project (fwd) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DGxG5D.A.m2D.A0fB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/377 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:38:39 -0700 X-UIDL: 65012f54cb8a03354f889568ec3d13d7 This came out of nowhere into my mailbox. I guess this might have been intended for Loopers' Delight. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: >From duo@pt.tizeta.it Thu Aug 28 13:26 PDT 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970828222711.0093c1e0@pt.tizeta.it> X-Sender: tz010434@pt.tizeta.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:27:12 +0200 To: pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu From: DUO Subject: The Generation Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1086 X-Status: The Generation Project By D.U.O. - Digital Unit Operated The starting idea for The Generation Project was to produce images and sounds using generative software exclusively. Our preferences has gone to Vista Pro 4.0, a three-dimensional landscape simulation program, Organic Art, a powerful framework for designing 3D living sculptures, Cybertation, a 3D DNA electronic simulator and Shade Dancer, a fascinating and stimulating screensaver for Win 95. Then we have developed a series of themes about the images, as if they were pictures drawn from a number of National Geographic of the future. The images generated from the different programs was then select, joined and retouched using Adobe Photoshop, which in turn has a generative role with its plug-ins filters. Subsequently with Koan X Platinum, a great generating music device, we have created musical pieces in relation to the images. The result has been a synergy between sounds and images very evocative, that we hope appreciates. The Generation Project can be accessed from http://www.planetario.it/og.htm ---- D.U.O. From ???@??? Thu Aug 28 19:32:04 1997 >From kflint Thu Aug 28 19:20:53 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4Gg8-00043a-00; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:20:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:13:05 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Wrong Ways In-Reply-To: <01BCB3AF.1036B240@mark.asisoftware.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MQ5DfC.A.JgD.uDjB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/378 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:20:52 -0700 X-UIDL: 12de92bb1ff87546fbb6e56af803371c On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Mark Kata wrote: > Has anyone discovered any wrong ways to use a JamMan or Vortex? I have a couple of Vortex patches where the volume of looped repeats sometimes and unpredictably actually gets *louder* as it repeats. The problem is that it eventually starts clipping the internal processors and freaking out into a total overload of digital distortion. I haven't found any logical pattern as to what causes this. Kinda fun, as long as you keep the feedback control well within reach... --Andre From ???@??? Fri Aug 29 09:50:29 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 29 05:17:51 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4Pzq-0006J1-00; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCB453.7B4165E0@mark.asisoftware.com> From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Wrong Ways Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:13:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QSP00C.A.3uF.V0rB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/379 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:17:50 -0700 X-UIDL: 9f48dac3c18dae59bcdfc781a4b0727d Andre, Please submit the patch settings to Loopers-Delight. I'd like to try it. Also, I haven't tried this idea yet, but it may provide interesting results on the Vortex: Create an interesting program with one of the algorithms. Then use the same settings with all of the other algorithms. Something strange or unusual should happen on at least one of the algorithms. I used to do this with a Yahama DX7 and it often provided interesting results. Thanks, Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com ---------- From: The Man Himself[SMTP:altruist@shoko.calarts.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 3:13 PM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Wrong Ways On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Mark Kata wrote: > Has anyone discovered any wrong ways to use a JamMan or Vortex? I have a couple of Vortex patches where the volume of looped repeats sometimes and unpredictably actually gets *louder* as it repeats. The problem is that it eventually starts clipping the internal processors and freaking out into a total overload of digital distortion. I haven't found any logical pattern as to what causes this. Kinda fun, as long as you keep the feedback control well within reach... --Andre From ???@??? Fri Aug 29 09:50:31 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 29 05:39:31 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4QKo-0007XB-00; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:39:30 -0700 Message-Id: <22476.199708291235@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:35:17 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) Subject: Re: Can somebody check some sounds? Resent-Message-ID: <"ZbHXgC.A.LzG.zIsB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/380 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:39:30 -0700 X-UIDL: 7a1601690f90d5eed21bc76a92f509ff >> I'm looking for a few people to test some sound files I'm attempting to >> upload onto my web site. What I need are people who can download files >> in AU format. >> >> The files are at http://shoko.calarts.edu/~altruist/sounds.html >> >> Each file contains much loopage, and is in the 1000K neighborhood. Works fine on this MAC. Very, very nice. Michael /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ |Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ???@??? Fri Aug 29 09:50:32 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 29 07:10:16 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4Rkc-0003jt-00; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:10:14 -0700 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:04:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com Message-ID: <970829100403_925218657@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: My GT-5 and other things Resent-Message-ID: <"IwnLUD.A.END.uctB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/381 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:10:14 -0700 X-UIDL: f05f1fa444778b901999eb10f440d556 <> You could patch a little Zoom 4-sec (508?) delay into the loop. They go for around $120, and actually have some of the same delay-spill-over functionality. How do you create your animations? In Premiere perhaps? Let's keep sending up GT-5 discoveries. It's an amazing little device. Here's a minor tweek, useful if you're into electronica: while a loop of the sort I described in the previous post is running, go to the pedal assign page and just dial around between the various presets, each one of which will have an immediate effect on the loop. When you get tired of doing this, exit and the last sound you made will continue as before. Too bad this isn't do-able with foot switches, but it's pretty unpredictable...file under GT-trivia. DPC From ???@??? Fri Aug 29 09:50:33 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 29 07:13:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4RnU-00041Z-00; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:13:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com Message-ID: <970829100622_-166659742@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: My GT-5 and other things Resent-Message-ID: <"jn7joB.A.5eD.5gtB0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/382 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:13:12 -0700 X-UIDL: 1c48ef4022876cf1fe383a18fb45de6d Anybody know why the order of receipt of postings here is so occasionally out of whack? I've been reading quotes all week of the post that started this visual looping thread, but just today rec'd the original...hmmm dpc From ???@??? Sat Aug 30 12:09:57 1997 >From kflint Fri Aug 29 18:33:20 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4cPf-0000mI-00; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:33:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:26:21 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Wrong Ways In-Reply-To: <01BCB453.7B4165E0@mark.asisoftware.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JJyY0C.A.Ra.6d3B0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/383 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:33:19 -0700 X-UIDL: 88e49782a485ed6d06b27fff64603af8 On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Mark Kata wrote: > Andre, > > Please submit the patch settings to Loopers-Delight. I'd like to try it. Give me a few days, it should be up for your self-abusing techno-malevolent fun before too long. --Andre From ???@??? Sat Aug 30 12:10:00 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 30 10:04:48 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4qx4-0000Dx-00; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:04:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3407E0B0.1603@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:00:22 +0100 From: Anton Chovit Reply-To: antonc@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: greets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XF-j0.A.nTH.zHFC0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/384 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:04:46 -0700 X-UIDL: 4c197747fcbf0a52cfab6180619670ce I have a ToneKing Continental combo. 40 watt one 12" speaker. This is the best amp I have ever heard or played. It gets a great clean osound with tons of headroom, it gets that vox sound, clean and dirty, It gets a early marshal sound. It rocks, It is incredible. Unfortunatly, it is also very expensive $1700. I still would reccomend it if you want the most toneful guitar sounds you ever played. It is also very, very loud in lead mode. I use a THD hot plate for practice and it is just a sizzler! Questions, call ToneKing (410)327-6530. Each amp is hand made. They are works of art! Hope this helps anton From ???@??? Sat Aug 30 22:49:42 1997 >From kflint Sat Aug 30 20:00:14 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x50FJ-0004yX-00; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:00:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970830063500.00686bb8@jps.net> X-Sender: kthalken@jps.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:50:49 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: KThalken Subject: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"o7Dsn.A.0cE.t0NC0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/385 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:00:13 -0700 X-UIDL: 360ad2c5d80a3997d0222835dc055b59 Hi!, My apologies for barging in on your mailing list, I found it while searching for information on the birimbau and funny thing that I stumbled upon information on looping that I hadn't found before. Joseph Arthur is the subject of my web page and he had described "looping" in an interview with Chris Douridas on KCRW: <> then a fan described the McCabes Show: <> and finally ... someone posted on the Real World Records Studios Forum board: <> Looking around the loopers-delight site (beautiful header on your site BTW!) I saw Jam Mans mentioned so I'm pretty sure I'm in the right place. There is also a Brian Eno connection... he sings backup on one of Joseph's songs and Markus Dravs produced Joseph's cd. I'm not a musician and obviously don't know what looping is but would like to have something on my page that would accurately describe looping in laymans terms, addressing the concept and equipment. Since I don't feel comfortable writing about it, would anyone be willing to write a short piece that I could place on my web page? Thank You, Kathleen Thalken http://www.jps.net/kthalken/ From ???@??? Sun Aug 31 23:46:02 1997 >From kflint Sun Aug 31 13:11:27 1997 Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x5GLG-0003rm-00; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:11:26 -0700 X-Sender: kflint@pop.slip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-mailer: Eudora Pro 2.1.3 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:06:04 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: A Looper's Delight milestone Resent-Message-ID: <"Z68OkB.A.7aD.L8cC0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/386 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: kflint@annihilist.com Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:11:26 -0700 X-UIDL: 1ffc4f101e408319bd6dcf04617bc211 Sometime in the past week, the Looper's Delight website had it's 50,000th hit of the year. Not bad for a weird little niche! thanks to everyone who's helped make it a nice place to go! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com