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>A small nit: A piano isn't stereo, per se. It's our hearing apparatus -- >our two ears getting divergent signals -- that creates the stereo image. >If >we had fours ears, we'd probably be strongly inclined toward 4-channel >playback. And, after smoking some pot, some of us might really feel >8-channel playback is waay groovy. :-) Chemical parameters aside - I was using the term 'stereo-' in its (I believe) original meaning of: relating to spatial characteristic, not to its more commercial meaning of two-channel. I suppose it was mightily optimistic / overenthusiastic it the time in history when two-channel rendering was considered "stereo" ;-) In other words, I wasn't even considering the two-eared (maximum) chemically motivated human observer yet - just the sound source. Nic >From: "David" <vze2ncsr@verizon.net> >Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com >To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> >Subject: Re: Stereo EDP -- some statistics and an opinion... >Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:48:39 -0400 > >Nic - > >You're right. We humans perceive sound from all around us. > >A small nit: A piano isn't stereo, per se. It's our hearing apparatus -- >our two ears getting divergent signals -- that creates the stereo image. >If >we had fours ears, we'd probably be strongly inclined toward 4-channel >playback. And, after smoking some pot, some of us might really feel >8-channel playback is waay groovy. :-) > >Listen to a sound from a single loudspeaker in a room -- and, assuming you >have two ears and they are both working nicely, you're listening to that >sound in stereo -- as the sound bounces around the room and hits your two >ears differently. > >This feature helped our survival-oriented forefathers (and foremothers) >more >accurately orient themselves as they ran toward juicy nutritious prey, or >away from nasty horrible hunters. > >As you correctly pinpoint, it's the process of capturing an instrument's >sound and using its acoustic energy to create an electronic signal that >can >be recorded, amplified, modified, etc. that renders the instrument "mono." >In the recording process, multiple microphones are often used capture a >spatial quality -- especially for acoustic instruments like piano, drums, >choirs and even loudspeakers themselves! :-) Accurately rendering a >three-dimensional spatial environment is what makes the advent of 5.1, >6.1, >7.1 etc., so enticing. Even so, here the spatial information is reduced >to >5, 6, or 7 + 1 sources during playback. > >So yes, if you wanna do some of the most nifty way-sophisticated looping >of >a stereo sound image projected by your acoustic guitar, you'll need two >EDP's. And in the USA, you can do that for $48/month. > >David > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Nic Roozeboom" <nic_roozeboom@msn.com> >To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> >Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:45 PM >Subject: Re: Stereo EDP -- some statistics and an opinion... > > > > >Stereo shmereo - what a paper tiger!! - a few thoughts: > > > > > >1) all natural (as opposed to electrically enhanced) instruments are >mono. > > > > This is such a grandiose oversimplification, I don't know where to >start... > > ;-) Rather than actually try, I'll offer this: a grand piano is an >eminent > > example of a stereophonic instrument. > > > > What makes any instument, natural or otherwise, 'monophonic' is the >result > > of recording and rendering it using a single channel. It's the capture >and > > reproduction, not the instrument, that bears the characteristic of >being > > mono. > > > > And, being 80% guitarist myself;-) - I'd add that a classical guitar, >like > > many other natural instruments, is a spatial sound source, not a > > single-point sound field. > > > > As ever, not helping, > > Nic > > > > > > >From: "David" <vze2ncsr@verizon.net> > > >Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com > > >To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> > > >Subject: Re: Stereo EDP -- some statistics and an opinion... > > >Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:13:48 -0400 > > > > > >OK - this gets my dander up! :-) So.... > > > > > >Adopting Curmudgeonly Kirkdorffer Persona: > > > > > >Stereo shmereo - what a paper tiger!! - a few thoughts: > > > > > >1) all natural (as opposed to electrically enhanced) instruments are >mono. > > >2) I'm guessing 80% of Looper-Delight readers are electric guitarists. > > >(Kim? > > >Anyone?) > > >3) Electric guitars, bases, violins, tubas, bazookis, kazoos, and >voice > > >are > > >all mono. > > >4) If you're creating a stereo field with your instrument, you're >likely > > >going through a few pieces of gear to artificially create that field >-- > > >OR -- you're playing some kind of (somewhat) more upscale or esoteric > > >electronic instrument -- a groovebox or keyboard/synthesizer for >example. > > >5) If it's been important to you to buy the tools to create the stereo > > >field -- you've decided it's worth spending the money to get to >stereo >-- > > >cool. And you have a stereo amp, and two monitors. > > >6) If you can afford stereo-enabling devices -- you probably have more >than > > >one of them. > > >7) If you can afford to invest in stereo devices, can afford two >monitors > > >and have a stereo amp, you are probably a lot closer to affording a >second > > >EDP than you're letting on. > > > > > >F A C T - 1: Here are stats from that big EDP "restart" order I >helped > > >organize with Gibson at the end of 1999. > > > > > > 89% wanted 1 EDP > > > 9% wanted 2 EDP's > > > 2% wanted 3 EDP's > > > > > >F A C T - 2: From a Looping Device Market Penetration and Demand >study > > >I did in in 1997, 46% of EDP owners at the time indicated they would >buy > > >another EDP if priced at $700 +/- 10%. (If you want a copy of this >report, > > >let me know). > > > > > >It seems if you need a stereo edp, here are your basic options: > > > > > > 1) Present an economic case to Gibson for them to build it > > > 2) Design one yourself and build it -- if you think there's >sustaining > > >market demand for it, set up shop and make more. > > > 3) Buy a second unit: $649.99 from Alto Music. > > > > > > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2553271953&category=621 > > > 4) Buy a used unit when they come for sale -- and they do! > > > > > >I chose option 3. For me, it was clearly the cheapest, most effective >and > > >quickest way to get what I needed. > > > > > >Exiting Curmudgeonly Kirkdorffer Persona. > > > > > >:-) > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Mark Hamburg" <mark_hamburg@baymoon.com> > > >To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> > > >Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:37 AM > > >Subject: Re: Stereo EDP > > > > > > > > > > on 8/25/03 8:22 PM, Greg House at ghunicycle@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > And frankly, I don't care for someone telling me what I need when >I'm > > >the one > > > > > sitting with my rig going "crap, I need a mixer now." I have to >buy > > >MORE > > >GEAR > > > > > for > > > > > the sole reason of WORKING AROUND basic product deficiencies like > > >signal > > >level > > > > > incompatibilities or the fact that there's one box in the mix >that's > > >not > > > > > stereo. > > > > > > > > That was my basic point. > > > > > > > > The EDP not doing stereo looping is potentially disappointing. If >you've > > >got > > > > stereo signals and you want to loop them and walk away, a stereo >looper > > >is > > > > pretty important. If you've got sounds that you have carefully >placed >in > > >the > > > > stereo field, a stereo looper is pretty important. But if stereo >were > > >really > > > > critical all the time, you'd think that more mix boards would have > > >stereo > > > > effects sends instead of mono sends. > > > > > > > > Not being stereo friendly, however -- i.e., not having stereo >throughs > > >-- > > > > means that the EDP rapidly forces a need for a mixer as well and >that > > >costs > > > > both money and rack space. (Or it forces a need for a second EDP >that > > >will > > > > allow you to work in stereo for most but not quite all features.) > > > > > > > > Being mono isn't necessarily a huge barrier to entry. Not being >able >to > > >play > > > > nicely with stereo equipment without help is a barrier to entry in >all > > >but > > > > the simplest setups and in those setups its a pain that you've got >to > > >find > > >a > > > > place to balance a rack mount item and hook up a separate foot >pedal. > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup