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Re: Ableton LIVE's ability to loop in real time



I second this, I use polar and an EDP together.
Geoff

on 13/3/03 8:21 pm, Mark Sottilaro at sine@zerocrossing.net wrote:

> So, I wonder how it is that MOTU's POLAR looper seems to work perfectly
> with no audible drift or latency using their 828 Firewire interface.
> Could it be because you're synching your loop to a predefined amount of
> measures based on your tempo?  I also know that POLAR only uses RAM so
> that things happen without any disk issues.  You can later "print" your
> loops to the hard drive and then use them in any way you'd like.
> 
> Mark Sottilaro
> 
> On Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 11:53 AM, Kim Flint wrote:
> 
>> At 01:15 PM 3/12/2003, Per Boysen wrote:
>>>> Från: Kim Flint [mailto:kflint@loopers-delight.com]
>>>> there is also control latency in this case.
>>> 
>>> Sure, you're perfectly right about that. But I could stand waiting 7
>>> milliseconds longer if I could bring just a laptop instead of this
>>> monster: http://www.boysen.se/pboy_looping_rig.jpg  ;-D
>> 
>> Per, you miss my point. Absolute latency is not so much the issue, but
>> lack of a guaranteed latency. Maybe control latency is 7ms nine times
>> out of ten, but every now and then it happens to be 50 ms, and maybe
>> somewhat rarer it is even higher. So if you perfectly tap a 1.00
>> second loop, mostly it is 1.00 seconds, but sometimes it ends up as
>> 1.05s, or 0.97s. Once in a while you get 1.20s. It will be somewhat
>> random, depending on whether your system happens to be busy doing
>> something else at that moment. You can't manage rhythm reliably with
>> an os like that. (Judging by my win2k laptop, you might sometimes get
>> 3.0 seconds if the disk happens to be spinning up or there is some
>> network activity or whatever....)
>> 
>> A hard real-time system will always guarantee that any event will
>> happen in a specific amount of time, no matter what else is happening.
>> The EDP for example, guarantees 1.5 ms for any switch or midi command
>> to be executed, at all times. A general purpose non-realtime os cannot
>> do that.
>> 
>>>> Also "any recorded sound won't have to be played back until
>>>> the next loop
>>>> round" is only true in the most simplistic approach to looping. For
>>>> example, what if you tap reverse while you are overdubbing?
>>> 
>>> Ooops.... Good point there! THAT maneuver will always be affected with
>>> some "early delay" in software loopers. I love to do this with the EDP
>>> and plucked string instruments!
>> 
>> that is just one example. another is handling sync to external
>> devices. There are others. All I have to do is think of all the things
>> that used to cause clicks in the echoplex during development, and
>> that's where you will have trouble in a non-realtime system.
>> 
>> If you look at the latest cars, it is common for PC systems to be
>> built in for driver navigation systems and passenger entertainment.
>> Windows is perfect for that because there are a lot of existing
>> programs ready to go. But I don't think you will find windows running
>> the processor that controls your fuel injection or anti-lock brakes!
>> True real-time os's are used for those.
>> 
>>>> just recorded needs to be played back immediately or you will
>>>> get a pop,
>>> 
>>> Not necessarily. A smoothing fade during that "reverse delay" period
>>> can
>>> be written into the software. I would have no problems with that. When
>>> it comes to reverb it's ok with some "predelay". Apparently software
>>> loopers will never be the same thing as hardware loopers. I guess both
>>> will have their pros and cons.
>> 
>> Well, good luck with that one.
>> 
>> to me, a more significant issue than these technical points is the
>> user interface. Notebook computers are designed for businessmen to
>> create power point slides in airports and display them in conference
>> rooms. I know, I used to design these things. That's who the customer
>> is, and that is who the interface is designed for. There are no
>> features tailored for musicians except by coincidence. If you want it
>> to be a looper, you need to customize and add a lot of things for you
>> to be able to control it and make it work for that purpose. If you
>> have that much time and patience on your hands, great, go for it. I
>> think most people would rather spend their time using the tool rather
>> than creating it.
>> 
>> Personally, I find myself with less and less patience for things where
>> I have to create the user interface details for a tool before I can
>> use it. I don't have the time to research all the options, try them
>> out, and make a decision about what works best for an application. I
>> want somebody else to weed out all the bad ideas and present something
>> coherent and workable. Preferably they come up with a really intuitive
>> interface with nice ergonomics, and I can jump right in, learn how to
>> work it, and start using it. Then I can use that tool to do whatever
>> it is I want to do, rather then spend all my time creating the tool
>> for myself.
>> 
>> For example, I've now given up on the idea of using a PC/Mac for
>> recording. I've been planning to go that route for years, but the
>> burden of all the decisions needed to make it happen was too much. I
>> didn't have time for figuring it out, so it never happened. My
>> girlfriend has been frustrated about this for years, since she is the
>> one who really likes recording and had outgrown the 4-tracks, but for
>> her figuring out the pc requirements was too intimidating to even
>> start.  Instead we just bought a 16 track standalone hard disk
>> recorder with a cd-r built in. (Yamaha AW16G). Everything is laid out
>> nicely, all the elements we need are there - mixer, patchbay, effects,
>> i/o, eq, cdr, hd, loop sampler, etc. Nicely ergonomic control surface,
>> good quality audio, easy to use, etc. No decisions to make, just learn
>> to use it and go. One credit card transaction. It does everything we
>> need and then some, and in the end probably cost a lot less than I
>> would have spent on a pc recording system. We're happy, and she'll
>> probably begin a recording project here within days. It probably would
>> have been years if we kept on the PC path.
>> 
>> To me, that is the real advantage of a dedicated device over a general
>> purpose computer/laptop. How much time and energy are you going to put
>> into customizing an interface for that general purpose device to fit
>> your needs, before you can do anything with it at all? How much time
>> are you going to spend screwing around with it later, fixing problems,
>> installing updates, etc? The dedicated device might have you up and
>> running in minutes. And after all the effort you put into customizing
>> the general purpose device for your needs, how good is it really? A
>> dedicated device had one or more knowledgeable people spend a whole
>> bunch of time figuring out the details of the interface design,
>> probably with input from other users. These days I find I'd much
>> rather take advantage of the interface design work that somebody else
>> already did, rather than reinventing that wheel myself.
>> 
>> To each his own I guess. Certainly there are people who love the idea
>> of building their own musical tools. I think they are the musician
>> equivalent of people who build hot rods. Its a lot of fun and a
>> passion to build your own car, even if ultimately you hardly ever
>> drive it except to shows with other hot rod builders. Most people
>> would prefer to just have a car that gets them from A to B.....
>> 
>> kim
>> 
>> 
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> Kim Flint                     | Looper's Delight
>> kflint@loopers-delight.com    | http://www.loopers-delight.com
>> 
>