Re: Critique of Critique of Feedback at Max

[Stan Card <stanitarium@earthlink.net>]

eye 4 one luv the ball&chain analogy.
it defines wot i dew w/ my surfee looping...
"locked in' is a surfing term which defines a surfer 2 B in a position 
where
it is impossible to pull out even if you wanted to and to be positioned in
the perfect spot on the wave.
and thats Y i love the looper t shirt which says something about 100%
feedback...
s 

> Oh my, it's some loop philosophy... how can I resist?  8()
> 
> How ya doin', Rick?
> 
> "Rick Walker/Loop.pooL" wrote:
> 
>> Matthias (whose music I adore and who I consider a good new friend)
>> wrote:
>> 
>> "I just shortly repeat what Kim an me pointed several time at on this
>> list:
>> With FB constantely at max, the loop turns into a ball on a chain: The
>> phrase you started with keeps you in the same mood, you cannot evolve 
>when
>> you feel its time, just revolve, chopp off... ;-"
>> 
>> This can happen, certainly, but there are many ways of making music.
>> I, personally, am not a fan of Jazz Fusion as an example,
>> but to categorically state that this music keeps you in the same mood
>> because I don't happen to enjoy the form is absurd.
> 
> I personally didn't take Matthias' comment as an aesthetic judgement at
> all.  To me, it's an expression of a technical concern, and a very
> important and valid one at that: what do you do with a loop once you've
> built up a texture, if you don't have feedback control?
> 
> I would speculate that the comment about "the same mood" is not a
> reflection of Matthias' personal listening taste, but rather the
> loopists' challenge when working with a loop without feedback: how do
> you evolve the texture aside from either overdubbing more and more
> layers to it (thereby creating an ever-denser texture), and/or ending it
> abruptly (which are the two possibilities Matthias described in his
> original remark)?
> 
> Feedback is an incredible tool for this sort of thing, and Matthias'
> incredibly fluid and organic style would be unthinkable without it.
> It's just like I couldn't imagine doing what I like to do without a
> momentary Replace function (and, increasingly, 8th/cycle quantization,
> cycle-quantized loop switching, DirectMIDI, etc. etc.) - that's MY own
> solution to how I develop a loop and change its direction.  (Ironically
> enough, I can regularly play a whole concert without ever touching the
> feedback control...)
> 
>> I love repetition, personally. I have loved Terry Riley, Philip Glass,
>> Hamza El Din, Reggae, et. al.
> 
> I like their stuff too.  And I would point to works like "In C" or
> "Music For 18 Musicians" as good general examples of the sort of
> principle Matthias is talking about: the idea that you can evolve the
> loop by fading various elements in and out of the picture, and that over
> time, the entire textural content of a basic "loop" can completely
> change and evolve, in subtle and organic ways.
> 
>> It's really o.k. if Kim or Mattias don't.   But let's keep our
>> communications and our aesthetic biases clear.   A personal aesthetic
>> predilection is exactly that:   a personal predilection.    It's ok to 
>have
>> them without being judgemental about others.
> 
> I don't believe either Kim or Matthias are opposed to repetitive music -
> if they were, they'd very likely find something to do with their lives
> other than design looping software!  8()
> 
> And in the case of Kim and Matthias, it's important to remember that
> you're talking about two guys who have designed several versions of a
> software which is utterly without peer in its particular focus and
> design angle.  There are things the EDP was doing in its software
> version 8 years ago that STILL haven't been duplicated or matched.  I
> can only imagine how frustrating it must sometimes be to have spent so
> much time working on an instrument that's still so underrated and
> misunderstood.
> 
> So I'm all for discussing these expanded possibilities, because it
> increases the general understanding of the tools of the trade.  And it
> also allows a fascinating insight into some of the creative corners of
> the design process in general.  For instance, the EDP's
> painstakingly-programmed 127 discreet feedback values assume a
> tremendous amount of significance when you see and hear Matthias'
> seamless work.  Some of the more "out there" Echoplex functions make
> more sense when you find out that Kim Flint is a big hip-hop, jungle,
> and heavy metal fan.
> 
> I think it's fantastic that there are folks like yourself, Rick, who are
> making great music with very simple units like a DL4.  But I also think
> it's important to make people in general aware of the possibilities that
> lie beyond simply recording, repeating, and overdubbing.  A lot of these
> techniques are not very difficult to use, they already exist in many of
> the devices people presently own, and they can open tremendous doors
> into different technical and aesthetic avenues.
> 
> It's one thing to choose to work within very tight technical
> constraints, the way you have.  But it's another thing to be unwittingly
> constrained by one's own expectations of the parameters that are
> available, simply because they never explored the other options out
> there, you know?
> 
>> Everyone is Creative.  I think there is a disturbing trend in western
>> culture specifically to be perfectionistic and judgemental.
>> I think that we, as artists and loopers have a great opportunity to
>> reverse this trend (if only in a small,small way) and actively support
>> people's creativity.  It's all good.
> 
> I agree that it's important to encourage people to do their thing.  But
> I also adamently feel that it's JUST as important to approach an art
> form from a respectfully critical point of view.
> 
> In other words, don't just settle for what's commonly available.  Don't
> just work within the parameters of what we commonly associate with these
> tools.  Don't just accept that looping HAS to sound a certain way.
> 
> Why shouldn't we challenge ourselves - and one another - in a healthy,
> respectful, encouraging way, to go beyond what we expect, and what we
> already know we can do?
> 
> I haven't seen anything that Kim or Matthias have said that I would
> describe as disrespectful to other people's music.  Can they be blunt?
> You bet.  Direct?  Absolutely.  Fed up with the status quo?  For sure.
> Challenging?  I sure HOPE so.  But I think that's how any art form grows
> and develops - by having a healthy dissatisfaction with the way things
> are already done.
> 
> Maybe this is easy for me to say, Rick, since I've heard both of these
> gentlement express their very deep respect and appreciation for your
> music.  So I know they're not knockin' ya... far from it, in fact.
> 
> Well damn, I guess this is a brain spew and a half.  Time to get back to
> practicing!
> 
> Hope y'all are well tonight.
> 
> Woo hah,
> 
> --Andre LaFosse
> The Echoplex Analysis Pages:
> http://www.altruistmusic.com/EDP
>